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Treeskier
11-29-2009, 09:23 PM
Are the snow guns going?

Lostone
11-29-2009, 09:34 PM
Can't tell now, but I'm happy to report they were running most of the day. 8)

gone.skiing
11-29-2009, 09:35 PM
Check the webcam...

Sugaree
11-29-2009, 09:42 PM
They were running on Jester all day (and still going at 4:00). As I understand it, water main break on access road shut them down yesterday.

HowieT2
11-29-2009, 09:55 PM
Forecast is good until wednesday. then not so good till thursday night.

Colorado Dirt
11-29-2009, 10:38 PM
I used this site religously in colorado for a few years and they were somewhat accurate for storm predictions and snow totals. I'm new to sugarbush (just moved in actually) and am wondering if anyone has compared their predictions to past storms here. Any suggestions of sites for mrv? I have yet to find a majorly reliable source for winter weather info. Thanks

www.snowforecast.com

J

skierdon
11-29-2009, 10:50 PM
CD- I can't vouch for that site, but check out these:

http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/ Josh blogs specifically for MRG weather, but in most cases it is applicable to Sugarbush. He seems to be pretty accurate.

http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/weather/ This is a new site, although the weather guys have been forecasting on the TGR site focusing on the East Coast. They really seem to know their stuff and give very localized snowfall predictions- they nailed the storm this last weekend.

Also, Roger Hill has a good sense of weather in the MRV- he posts updates in the MRG weather section.

HowieT2
11-30-2009, 07:30 AM
CD- I can't vouch for that site, but check out these:

http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/ Josh blogs specifically for MRG weather, but in most cases it is applicable to Sugarbush. He seems to be pretty accurate.

http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/weather/ This is a new site, although the weather guys have been forecasting on the TGR site focusing on the East Coast. They really seem to know their stuff and give very localized snowfall predictions- they nailed the storm this last weekend.

Also, Roger Hill has a good sense of weather in the MRV- he posts updates in the MRG weather section.

+1 on Josh Fox's Single chair weather blog. It's as local as it gets.

Hawk
11-30-2009, 08:00 AM
Yesterday we did a little hike to survey the conditions. We had some time constraints so we didn't bring the skis with us however we wish we did. The route was up Village Run across to the top of Gate house, across Castlerock connector to the base of castle rock and then back. At the bottom of VR there was a trace of snow to start the hike. At the top VR and across to Gatehouse there was a solid 4 to 6" base that gat a little freeze thaw and was pretty solid in places. When we got to the bottom of North Lynx there were signs of someone skinning and a couple of tracks on Birch. The 4-6 also had some softer snow on top. We proceeded to head across Castlerock connector and noticed that a nice skin track had formed. We also noticed someone on lift line. When we got to the bottom of Middle Earth the snow had changed to a softer fluffier consistency and was about 7: deep. A single skier came down and said that the top was a little windblown and the conditions were variable. But just down from there the snow was beautiful on Castlerock Run and Cotillion. He said 6" hard base with 6+" on top of that but it was hard to tell exactly how much because the wind blew it around.

The guns were on all day on Sunday on Jester and they started on Downspout but shut down on the lower mountain late morning.The access road was closed on Saturday for the repair of the snowmaking main. I did not see the damage first hand but heard that the pipe blew and spewed rocks and dirt all over the road.

win
11-30-2009, 12:05 PM
We had two breaks Friday night. Our crew did a fantastic job of fixing both by the end of the day and making the Access Road passable. Snowmaking resumed Friday night and we got some good depth down on Jester and top of Downspout. It warmed up last night and we had to shutdown, but as of noon today, it is snowing up top and flurrying at the base the guns will be back on shortly at both mountains. Snowmaking looks really good until Wednesday when we warm up it looks like for a day. We are shooting for Friday at LP, but we will have to wait and see what Wednesday brings.

atkinson
12-01-2009, 12:12 PM
http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/515/StokeX120309_003web.jpg
Rim Run running!

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/515/StokeX120309_001web.jpg
Natural snow coming down too. Mer, Dave, Paul and John say hi!

John

gone.skiing
12-01-2009, 01:05 PM
Looks great! Can you please hold a very big umbrella over it for Wed/Thus, so we can be skiing on Sat...

HowieT2
12-01-2009, 01:15 PM
Note the fan gun blasting away.

Tin Woodsman
12-01-2009, 01:46 PM
Note the fan gun blasting away.

Yup. That's a lot of snow coming out of it. Perfect spot for it too. I like the sophisticated new tools that mtn ops guy is using on it.

atkinson
12-01-2009, 02:14 PM
Good eye Tin. That's one of Sugarbush's new organic localvore low-e high-impact power-assisted solar-wind automatic-manual slam-hams. Besides top-secret military applications, we're the only ones in the country to deploy these machines.

John

HowieT2
12-01-2009, 02:34 PM
Good eye Tin. That's one of Sugarbush's new organic localvore low-e high-impact power-assisted solar-wind automatic-manual slam-hams. Besides top-secret military applications, we're the only ones in the country to deploy these machines.

John

Curious-what temperature was it when that picture was taken? seems that it had to be marginal yet the fan gun was blasting away.

Dellwood
12-01-2009, 03:20 PM
Nice to see natural snow, snow making and smiles all around. Can't wait to be there.

Seeing the Mushroom in the background brings back found memories of the hustle and bustle of the lunchtime crowd during the holiday periods. The bar area SRO and the wait staff fighting their way thru with trays filled with mushroom burgers and quesadillas. Timbers is a world class facility and serves great food, but I still marvel at the Mushroom's staffs ability to seat the crowds, get you in and out in a reasonable time and still serve you a delicious hot meal.

Looking forward to skiing all day and then sitting at the CRP drinking a few beers.

shadyjay
12-01-2009, 03:28 PM
Looking forward to skiing all day and then sitting at the CRP drinking a few beers.

AMEN!

My winter stay in Vermont starts tomorrow with the final load of stuff from CT to the condo, plus myself and my dog, then spend the rest of the week getting "set up" before the big day comes over the weekend.

See ya at the lift...have your passes out n' ready!
:D :D :D

Hawk
12-01-2009, 03:30 PM
Nice to see John, Meredith and Dave out and about. That's a nice new hair cut Dave got. :wink:

gone.skiing
12-02-2009, 12:11 PM
When is the game time decision for this weekend? Tomorrow afternoon? Friday morning?

Fourwide
12-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Cold temps have been hanging on and our snowmaking teams have been working their magic. We were actually able to blow snow in the base area of Lincoln Peak yesterday! It looks like the last wave of Indian summer will be moving through Vermont tomorrow, and with it... the chnace of r%$n. If the r%$n is light, we should be able to open on Friday. If it's not so light, we will open Saturday.

HowieT2
12-02-2009, 12:35 PM
Cold temps have been hanging on and our snowmaking teams have been working their magic. We were actually able to blow snow in the base area of Lincoln Peak yesterday! It looks like the last wave of Indian summer will be moving through Vermont tomorrow, and with it... the chnace of r%$n. If the r%$n is light, we should be able to open on Friday. If it's not so light, we will open Saturday.

The forecast is for the opposite of light.

vonski
12-02-2009, 01:34 PM
Cold temps have been hanging on and our snowmaking teams have been working their magic. We were actually able to blow snow in the base area of Lincoln Peak yesterday! It looks like the last wave of Indian summer will be moving through Vermont tomorrow, and with it... the chnace of r%$n. If the r%$n is light, we should be able to open on Friday. If it's not so light, we will open Saturday.

The forecast is for the opposite of light.

Yeah, but I am still going up Thursday night. Its New England after all and the damn storm track could change still. The glass is half full after all not half empty.

HowieT2
12-02-2009, 01:51 PM
Cold temps have been hanging on and our snowmaking teams have been working their magic. We were actually able to blow snow in the base area of Lincoln Peak yesterday! It looks like the last wave of Indian summer will be moving through Vermont tomorrow, and with it... the chnace of r%$n. If the r%$n is light, we should be able to open on Friday. If it's not so light, we will open Saturday.

The forecast is for the opposite of light.

Yeah, but I am still going up Thursday night. Its New England after all and the damn storm track could change still. The glass is half full after all not half empty.

I'm staying home.
As much as it pains me say, this will not turn into a snow event

vonski
12-02-2009, 02:23 PM
Cold temps have been hanging on and our snowmaking teams have been working their magic. We were actually able to blow snow in the base area of Lincoln Peak yesterday! It looks like the last wave of Indian summer will be moving through Vermont tomorrow, and with it... the chnace of r%$n. If the r%$n is light, we should be able to open on Friday. If it's not so light, we will open Saturday.

The forecast is for the opposite of light.

Yeah, but I am still going up Thursday night. Its New England after all and the damn storm track could change still. The glass is half full after all not half empty.

I'm staying home.
As much as it pains me say, this will not turn into a snow event

Come on Howie, the Power of the skiers mind is the only way to counter mother nature! I am going cause I have work going north on 91 on Thursday anyways. So, I might as well keep going. and with the Ellen Plus pass I want to get a couple turns in before the 19th and I can't make it next weekend. So, it is what it is and will be what it will be. Hoping the tail end has some snow in it. Keep Dancing!

Tin Woodsman
12-02-2009, 02:23 PM
I can't but help to refer back to our little annual discussion on snowmaking firepower. Sure would be nice if they had the firepower to guarantee a Friday opening seeing as how they've had a solid 4-5 day window. These are exactly the times when you need everything the system will give you. Absent significant help from Mother Nature, it's going to be a major uphill battle to get a significant amount of terrain open for the holidays. Keep doing those snow dances, folks, and hope that a million or two for more fan guns is found under Win's Christmas tree.

gone.skiing
12-02-2009, 02:41 PM
Looks like everyone is struggling... Mt Snow pushed the opening to Sunday. I am looking forward to OG laps under the guns. ;)

HowieT2
12-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Cold temps have been hanging on and our snowmaking teams have been working their magic. We were actually able to blow snow in the base area of Lincoln Peak yesterday! It looks like the last wave of Indian summer will be moving through Vermont tomorrow, and with it... the chnace of r%$n. If the r%$n is light, we should be able to open on Friday. If it's not so light, we will open Saturday.

The forecast is for the opposite of light.

Yeah, but I am still going up Thursday night. Its New England after all and the damn storm track could change still. The glass is half full after all not half empty.

I'm staying home.
As much as it pains me say, this will not turn into a snow event

Come on Howie, the Power of the skiers mind is the only way to counter mother nature! I am going cause I have work going north on 91 on Thursday anyways. So, I might as well keep going. and with the Ellen Plus pass I want to get a couple turns in before the 19th and I can't make it next weekend. So, it is what it is and will be what it will be. Hoping the tail end has some snow in it. Keep Dancing!

I know. It's killing me. We can't make it next weekend either. and I still don't have bindings on my new skis.

Brew Ski
12-02-2009, 03:49 PM
I was thinking that OG was going to be packed with all the regulars showing up. With everyone jonesing for some fresh turns, I figured it would be skied off by noon.

So thanks, to everyone who is staying home, I'll gladly take your turns for you.

Slow turns are better than no turns, even if I have to slow down for Bark biter, or challenge gone skiing and his phenom son to some friendly laps and Jester cross.

The season begins! Think snow! Go Ski!

Then come back here and talk STOKE!! for the next turns!

gone.skiing
12-02-2009, 04:12 PM
You should have learned by now to not pick fights with barkbiter or did the scars heal from last year...

ski_resort_observer
12-02-2009, 04:40 PM
Tin - which day the Bush opens this weekend has little to do with firepower, it's all about the weather. Yup, a bunch of rain is forecast but it depends on how much it rains and when it stops. Need some time for the snow to drain. Everyone and I mean everyone wants to open on Friday. Waiting for the last second to decide on the slim chance the forecast is wrong. I am sure Win will post as soon as the decision is made.

HowieT2
12-02-2009, 04:51 PM
Tin - which day the Bush opens this weekend has little to do with firepower, it's all about the weather. Yup, a bunch of rain is forecast but it depends on how much it rains and when it stops. Need some time for the snow to drain. Everyone and I mean everyone wants to open on Friday. Waiting for the last second to decide on the slim chance the forecast is wrong. I am sure Win will post as soon as the decision is made.

Of course the weather is a factor but so is the volume of snow they can put down in a given time.

I don't see how the NCP tomorrow doesn't do major damage to whatever snow was made before, especially since it will be combined with high winds.

vonski
12-02-2009, 05:18 PM
The fact that the Bush lacks capacity is a known fact. I was in my local ski shop today, and the owner made the comment that they lack the capacity to be efficient and productive with their snowmaking. So, what do you think he tells his customers who are wondering where the best place is to go! I ski the Bush cause of the variety of terrain and woods, but when the weather is not helpful the lack of capacity is a problem.

ski_resort_observer
12-02-2009, 05:29 PM
I was just referring to this weekend. Too my point, Mt Snow has a ton of firepower, installed 100+ fan guns a couple of years ago when they got new owners. They just announced that they are delaying their opening to Sun. Attitash and Okemo also known for alot of snowmaking firepower, Attitash got bought by the same company that bought Mt Snow and installed 100+ fan guns, as well. Both are also opening on Sat. For this weekend, doesn't matter whether you have 2 trails or 20 trails your blowing snow on this past month. With little base, a big rain event will diseffect the product to the negetive.

If firepower is so important in getting open how come Mt Snow, Attitash, Okemo, Hunter, all known for their snowmaking firepower won't be open until this weekend? Weather trumps firepower just about everytime.

I believe I heard that this past November was one of the warmest on record. I assume that is Vermont or maybe the region. The PNW is getting pounded with snow so far this season, that's a good thing regarding the upcoming Olympics but it was only about 5 years ago(?) that the PNW was almost snowless the whole winter.

vonski
12-02-2009, 05:44 PM
I guess it is an issue that needs to be addressed and hopefully can be addressed in the next few yeas once phase two at Lincoln peak is completed. If the skier visits are going to be increased in the future. So, for now lets do our dane and hope this rain event keeps moving quickly and turns east as soon as poosible. See ya in the mud on Friday!

HowieT2
12-02-2009, 07:08 PM
I was just referring to this weekend. Too my point, Mt Snow has a ton of firepower, installed 100+ fan guns a couple of years ago when they got new owners. They just announced that they are delaying their opening to Sun. Attitash and Okemo also known for alot of snowmaking firepower, Attitash got bought by the same company that bought Mt Snow and installed 100+ fan guns, as well. Both are also opening on Sat. For this weekend, doesn't matter whether you have 2 trails or 20 trails your blowing snow on this past month. With little base, a big rain event will diseffect the product to the negetive.

If firepower is so important in getting open how come Mt Snow, Attitash, Okemo, Hunter, all known for their snowmaking firepower won't be open until this weekend? Weather trumps firepower just about everytime.

I believe I heard that this past November was one of the warmest on record. I assume that is Vermont or maybe the region. The PNW is getting pounded with snow so far this season, that's a good thing regarding the upcoming Olympics but it was only about 5 years ago(?) that the PNW was almost snowless the whole winter.

We'll see who gets open saturday and with what coverage. There's a lot of work to do before then.

Tin Woodsman
12-02-2009, 08:44 PM
I was just referring to this weekend. Too my point, Mt Snow has a ton of firepower, installed 100+ fan guns a couple of years ago when they got new owners. They just announced that they are delaying their opening to Sun. Attitash and Okemo also known for alot of snowmaking firepower, Attitash got bought by the same company that bought Mt Snow and installed 100+ fan guns, as well. Both are also opening on Sat. For this weekend, doesn't matter whether you have 2 trails or 20 trails your blowing snow on this past month. With little base, a big rain event will diseffect the product to the negetive.

If firepower is so important in getting open how come Mt Snow, Attitash, Okemo, Hunter, all known for their snowmaking firepower won't be open until this weekend? Weather trumps firepower just about everytime.

I believe I heard that this past November was one of the warmest on record. I assume that is Vermont or maybe the region. The PNW is getting pounded with snow so far this season, that's a good thing regarding the upcoming Olympics but it was only about 5 years ago(?) that the PNW was almost snowless the whole winter.

You keep raising these red herrings, seemingly in the desperate hope that if you repeat them enough times, maybe people will ignore the elephant in the room. Mt. Snow is over 100 miles south of SB, gets 60% of the snow of SB and has no upper/lower mountain configuration to help get open early. There shouldn't really be a discussion of who will open first between those two hills, all things being equal. Attitash gets even less snow, and has a summit elevation a few hundred feat BELOW the top of Valley House. Why you would want to use them as a comparator is beyond me. Even Okemo gets 30% less snow, faces East, is 60 miles to the south, and has a summit elevation that's over 600' lower than LP (don't even get me started on Mt. Ellen). Hunter is in the same boat - low summit elevation (3200'), no upper/lower mtn configuration, half the snow of SB, and almost 200 miles to the South. The fact that any of those mtns are able to open on the same day as SB says more about the power of their systems than any capabilities that SB has. Okemo had 100 guns going yesterday. You think SB could run 100 guns simultaneously on limited terrain? I'd be surprised if they could do that during even the best of conditions.

Please stop embarrassing yourself with the fanboyism.

summitchallenger
12-02-2009, 09:37 PM
Please stop embarrassing yourself with the fanboyism.

I'm sorry, but isn't there a rule that we discourage ad hominem attacks?

http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=37

Back to the debate on the issues and not the persons involved, the overall point is that the weather is what prevented Sugarbush as well other resorts from opening sooner than they could. Having 200 guns available means nothing if the temperatures are too warm to use them. If the weather changes, having 200 running does make a difference, but that is not the problem as I understand it.

Go Figure
12-02-2009, 10:08 PM
Please stop embarrassing yourself with the fanboyism.

I'm sorry, but isn't there a rule that we discourage ad hominem attacks?

http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=37

Back to the debate on the issues and not the persons involved, the overall point is that the weather is what prevented Sugarbush as well other resorts from opening sooner than they could. Having 200 guns available means nothing if the temperatures are too warm to use them. If the weather changes, having 200 running does make a difference, but that is not the problem as I understand it.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/moxieinvermont1/baby_crying.jpg

Tin Woodsman
12-02-2009, 11:10 PM
Please stop embarrassing yourself with the fanboyism.

I'm sorry, but isn't there a rule that we discourage ad hominem attacks?

http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=37

Back to the debate on the issues and not the persons involved, the overall point is that the weather is what prevented Sugarbush as well other resorts from opening sooner than they could. Having 200 guns available means nothing if the temperatures are too warm to use them. If the weather changes, having 200 running does make a difference, but that is not the problem as I understand it.

Really? That's an ad hominem attack? I guess the bar gets lower and lower.

It's an embarrassment that the same line keeps getting pushed by certain people despite all evidence to the contrary.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure how it holds together at all. If the weather was cold enough to run guns all the way down to HG base (and for a time even down the LP base), then firepower is even MORE important, not less. Having 200 guns available is EXACTLY what you need when you have to make as much snow as possible in a brief window.

Fourwide
12-03-2009, 09:00 AM
Next topic, please (and yes, Tin, that was a pissy line).

gone.skiing
12-03-2009, 09:38 AM
There you have it... opening with Jester only. Friday or Saturday is still TBD.

SRO, if there was a window to make snow on Jester, it was also there for OG. What is the reason snow was not made on OG at the same time? Let me guess, capacity or $$$...

HowieT2
12-03-2009, 10:05 AM
Jester with downloading on SB. I bet the mountains with greater capacity will have a lot more open than that. I think Mt. Snow is shooting for a sunday opening but with something like 10-20 trails. It is beyond obvious to me that the limited snowmaking is a serious deficiency.

ski_resort_observer
12-03-2009, 10:54 AM
There you have it... opening with Jester only. Friday or Saturday is still TBD.

SRO, if there was a window to make snow on Jester, it was also there for OG. What is the reason snow was not made on OG at the same time? Let me guess, capacity or $$$...

I leave those decisions up to Mtn Opps and Win, I don't try to second guess what they do in here or anywhere else. The Bush's snowmaking capacity, electrical grid restraints and costs vs benefits has been discussed in here many times before.

noski
12-03-2009, 11:04 AM
http://www.madrivervalley.com/vermont/webcam/index.asp Rain has stopped and sun is peeking out and casting shadows here on the Valley floor.

Hawk
12-03-2009, 11:06 AM
There you have it... opening with Jester only. Friday or Saturday is still TBD.

SRO, if there was a window to make snow on Jester, it was also there for OG. What is the reason snow was not made on OG at the same time? Let me guess, capacity or $$$...

Gone Skiing is right on the money but the truth is that the mountian has it's focus and it is not snowmaking upgrades right now. They need to get the guest services building built with limited cash resources. They are very smart about business and undoubtably know the dificientcies with the snowmaking system they have. It is what it is and we have to just go with it for now. I have given up preaching about the benifits. We all know them. Lets just hope and pray that the winter is kind to us like it has been in years past. So enough snotty bickering and think snow. :)

gone.skiing
12-03-2009, 11:10 AM
SRO, you stated that capacity does not matter and that makes no sense. This is what TW et all pointed out. It has indeed been discussed before, no need to pass koolaid around once again. If you said that SB made a business decision to do things in a certain way, nobody would have argued with you.

PS: Hawk beat me to it. (again) ;-)

PPS: Jester, baby!!!

ski_resort_observer
12-03-2009, 11:58 AM
SRO, you stated that capacity does not matter and that makes no sense.
PS: Hawk beat me to it. (again) ;-)

PPS: Jester, baby!!!

Please reread my post I wrote that capacity does not not play a big role regarding when a resort opens. The fact that many resorts with much greater snowmaking capacity are not open yet, in my view, proves that point.

Hawk
12-03-2009, 12:33 PM
SRO, with all due respect and I do respect what you say usually, I disagree with the statement that capacity does not effect the opening. Just look at Sunday River. They have a base elevation and top elevation that is 1000 feet less than SB. They have also had the same temperature regeim that we have had and still they have a 2 to 3 foot base most of the way down the bottom on several trails and have been open for a couple of weeks. Let's just agree to disagree. :wink:

Tin Woodsman
12-03-2009, 12:44 PM
There you have it... opening with Jester only. Friday or Saturday is still TBD.

SRO, if there was a window to make snow on Jester, it was also there for OG. What is the reason snow was not made on OG at the same time? Let me guess, capacity or $$$...

Gone Skiing is right on the money but the truth is that the mountian has it's focus and it is not snowmaking upgrades right now. They need to get the guest services building built with limited cash resources. They are very smart about business and undoubtably know the dificientcies with the snowmaking system they have. It is what it is and we have to just go with it for now. I have given up preaching about the benifits. We all know them. Lets just hope and pray that the winter is kind to us like it has been in years past. So enough snotty bickering and think snow. :)

This.

Absolutely on point. The guest services bldg is likely a higher priority, that doesn't mean there are no other priorities. If people aren't honest about the shortcomings of the mountain, then mgmt will live in some sort of Potemkin Village where everything is hunky dory and no issues exist. Now, I'm not so naive as to believe that Win isn't aware of the snowmaking system shortcomings and that we here are enlightening him to this issue, but let's not be silly here and try to spin the status quo into something it's not. It's a real issue that manifests itself in obvious ways during times like this, and all the spin in the world doesn't change that fact.

gone.skiing
12-03-2009, 02:10 PM
and have been open for a couple of weeks.

Try a couple of months...

Personally, I am not in business of running a resort. Some people here will tell Win: "Do not make snow in October, save $$$ for later". My position as a passholder is: if you make snow, I will be skiing. I would rather spend money at SB than K or SR. Whether it is feasible for Sugarbush, someone else can decide that.

Tin Woodsman
12-03-2009, 02:44 PM
and have been open for a couple of weeks.

Try a couple of months...

Personally, I am not in business of running a resort. Some people here will tell Win: "Do not make snow in October, save $$$ for later". My position as a passholder is: if you make snow, I will be skiing. I would rather spend money at SB than K or SR. Whether it is feasible for Sugarbush, someone else can decide that.

Let's also keep in mind that the issue of snowmaking power, while certainly having an impact on the ability to get open, is a MUCH more important point of discussion when it comes to the ability to expand terrain and recover after a thaw/freeze. Let's see how the comparison looks after a week or two of cold weather, where the mountains with first class systems are aggressively expanding terrain while the pickings remain slim at SB absent help from Mother Nature.

sgottmann
12-03-2009, 03:06 PM
[quote=Hawk]and have been open for a couple of weeks.

Let's also keep in mind that the issue of snowmaking power, while certainly having an impact on the ability to get open, is a MUCH more important point of discussion when it comes to the ability to expand terrain and recover after a thaw/freeze. Let's see how the comparison looks after a week or two of cold weather, where the mountains with first class systems are aggressively expanding terrain while the pickings remain slim at SB absent help from Mother Nature.

Dear Santa:

I wish there was more snow so snowmaking wasn't issue. In the alternative, I wish there were 201 fan guns, a new snowmaking system, an unlimited budget and that both mountains could open in October and stay open until June 1. Until these wishes come true, I wish that SB would charge substantially less than mountains with more terrain open so that I would be willing to ski on Jester and Organgrinder.

SB cannot control the weather and at the present make enough snow, fast enough but it can control prices. The quality of the product is the key theme of SB (at least as I have read it). Quality is an elusive goal, with each having a different measure. However, quality for the price may be more attainable. IMO, the quality of skiing this Saturday or Sunday will not justify the quantity of loot that many will need to pay this weekend (passholders obviously excluded).

Looking hopefully toward a possible storm on next Wednesday and Thursday.

ski_resort_observer
12-03-2009, 03:25 PM
A couple of medium size wind turbines on Mt Ellen, properly placed, has been on my holiday wish list for a couple of years now. :D

Hawk
12-03-2009, 04:09 PM
[quote=Hawk]and have been open for a couple of weeks.

Let's also keep in mind that the issue of snowmaking power, while certainly having an impact on the ability to get open, is a MUCH more important point of discussion when it comes to the ability to expand terrain and recover after a thaw/freeze. Let's see how the comparison looks after a week or two of cold weather, where the mountains with first class systems are aggressively expanding terrain while the pickings remain slim at SB absent help from Mother Nature.

Dear Santa:

I wish there was more snow so snowmaking wasn't issue. In the alternative, I wish there were 201 fan guns, a new snowmaking system, an unlimited budget and that both mountains could open in October and stay open until June 1. Until these wishes come true, I wish that SB would charge substantially less than mountains with more terrain open so that I would be willing to ski on Jester and Organgrinder.

SB cannot control the weather and at the present make enough snow, fast enough but it can control prices. The quality of the product is the key theme of SB (at least as I have read it). Quality is an elusive goal, with each having a different measure. However, quality for the price may be more attainable. IMO, the quality of skiing this Saturday or Sunday will not justify the quantity of loot that many will need to pay this weekend (passholders obviously excluded).

Looking hopefully toward a possible storm on next Wednesday and Thursday.

I have never looked at the price of a day of skiing and said " is it worth it". I pay whatever they want and go ski. But that is just me. I love the sport.

Tin Woodsman
12-03-2009, 04:49 PM
A couple of medium size wind turbines on Mt Ellen, properly placed, has been on my holiday wish list for a couple of years now. :D

Of course, the same goal of significantly reducing energy consumption from the grid could be accomplished in other ways:


Energy

Snowmaking requires a great deal of energy to run the pumps, compressors and fan guns, which is much more expensive than the water and labor costs. Bear Mountain uses mostly electric power provided by the local utility company while Snow Summit produces most of its own power by diesel driven generators in big plants at both the top and bottom of the mountain. Snow Summit also has night lighting on most of its runs for both night skiing and snowmaking operations that also requires electrical energy.

The air compressors need huge amounts of energy to provide the air flow for the air guns. Each air gun uses 300 to 1,000 cubic feet of air per minute (cfm), depending upon how big the nozzle is and how much water is put in, at about 85 to 95 pounds per square inch (PSI) pressure. Not counting water pumps and hill lighting power usage, about 9,600 kilowatts are needed to run all Snow Summit’s air compressors while only about 3,000 kilowatts are needed to run all 70 of its fan guns. While the traditional compressed air guns can produce snow in marginal conditions when the fan guns can’t, we are increasing our use of fan guns because they can produce a lot more snow in most conditions for the same amount of power.

Snow Summit runs 80 air/water guns, so the difference in energy consumption per gun is dramatic, especially given their respective outputs.

Plowboy
12-03-2009, 06:53 PM
A couple of medium size wind turbines on Mt Ellen, properly placed, has been on my holiday wish list for a couple of years now. :D

How about hydropower. Today was a mega.......whattf day. :cry:

arc1
12-03-2009, 07:04 PM
I love this debate. We all know that Bush has a small fraction of the snowmaking capacity of the K's, Okemo's. SV, MT. Snows, etc of the world. The Bush loyal either are paid to think, or actually do think, that the fact that a place like this can only make snow on 1 trail at a time (under most circumstances) makes sense. Because the 'product is so good". (Sorry about the broken pipes, water coming from the guns when its 10 out (how is that even possible?), glop or ice, whatever spews forth seemingly at random from the guns. We're great at this!).

The other camp thinks that this is fXXcking stupid, but loves the place, buys the passes, owns the real estate and hopes for snow (me). Hell yes, lets go to the CRP and hope we know Shawn well enough to get a beer before we completely dehydrate. Food?- sorry, we close the kitchen at 5:30. Um... I ski till 4:30.
(My personal fave, we're closing because the bartenders have to go work somewhere else.) I miss the Mushroom, I really do.

It would take a lot to dislodge many of us from the Bush. Every year I ski other VT resorts after a thaw/freeze and marvel at the fact that I can ski lots of trails with great manmade, while at home folks are plummeting down Ripcord trying to self arrest. I'm always happy to come back, spend a few days skiing beneath the guns on Steins (scraping the rime off the goggles every third gun or so), maybe scratch around in the woods, and enjoy the vibe my home MT. Because it will snow again, and this is a great hill. Hell, I had some friends from Southern VT in Slidebrook and they thought the were in the Alps.

What the hell is it about this place.....maybe there is kool-aid in the Long Trail.

jwt
12-03-2009, 07:16 PM
Amen Arc - silimar emotions here - except that extra 100 inches ( last few years anyway) has made all the difference in the world. Not to mention elevation and the lake effect - those nor'easters spinning downward from it adding even more aboce 3000'.
Then the trees which always hold more, ski better, have no mm underneath - I'm with skiladi there - hate it unless it is all we got - like th e2 am call at the bar in 1978- or '08 I guess too.

Got the RE, not going anywhere except the occasional ride to Jay, or this w/e K-Mart.

But wind turbines? What ever happened to eye pollution? Is that not more of a problem that three killed trees from excess water in a snow gun or weight of snow?

There will be new ways to utilize the 500 year supply of coal under the NE corridor, and the same with all that natural gas.

If Climategate gets anywhere near the press that Watergate got, well, cold air will be coming soon. I just know it.

In general, if the West gets it, we don't, and vise versa. Josh Fox calling for 300 squished into three or four months is just fine with me. Here is the Whistler website post this week:
As the calendar flips over to December, it's now official that November 2009 will go down in history as the snowiest month on record at Whistler Blackcomb, dating back to when the collection of weather data began 30 years ago.

November 2009 has seen a total accumulation of 560cm (18 feet) of snowfall, nearly four times that of November's average snowfall of 148cm (58 inches). This is an increase of more than 19 per cent over the previous record of 469cm (185 inches) set in January 2006, and a 22 per cent increase over January 1992's record of 459cm (181 inches).

Lostone
12-03-2009, 07:32 PM
What the hell is it about this place.

IMNATHO... People don't ski Sugarbush for the snowmaking. It is its own animal. It would be better with a better snowmaking system, but it is a great mountain, which pulls in... almost all of us... and a lot more that I can guarantee you are watching and waiting.





This too will pass. 8)

Tin Woodsman
12-03-2009, 08:13 PM
What the hell is it about this place.

IMNATHO... People don't ski Sugarbush for the snowmaking. It is its own animal. It would be better with a better snowmaking system, but it is a great mountain, which pulls in... almost all of us... and a lot more that I can guarantee you are watching and waiting.

True - people don't ski SB for the snowmaking, but a lot more would if they had a competitive system.

Come to think of it, maybe I'll shut up about this subject so we can continue to enjoy the relatively uncrowded slopes.

win
12-03-2009, 08:18 PM
I have been away for a couple of days and too tired tonight to read all the prior posts. So the only thing I will say this evening is that the last 24 hours really sucked! When I drove up 12-A from Randolph to Roxbury I don't think I have even seen the seen the stream parallel to the road running so full - even in the Spring. It was 68F in NYC this morning when I left and 55F at the top of the Roxbury Gap at 2pm this afternoon. It is now 44 at my home in East Warren and falling, and we will be turning the snow guns on later tonight at both mountains and hope to now keep them on until the middle of February. We are going to open Saturday even if the conditions are less than optimal. We will be skiing only on Jester and Downspout and downloading, but that is a start. We probably won't groom Friday night, so I am counting on some fat skis and snowboards and adventuresome loyalists to work it in so that with the snowmaking we will be doing we have have some nicer conditions by Sunday morning.

Valley Ski Week will go ahead next week.

That said, the two week forescast finally looks very encouraging. Good snowmaking temperatures even down low and some natural snowfall as well. It you wonderful loyal Sugrabushers really want to help get the winter started, come to our party next Saturday. The Motor Booty band will enble you to dance in a way that will guarantte record snowfall for the 09/10 season.

Thanks to all who turned out for Taste of Timbers tonight.

gone.skiing
12-03-2009, 09:10 PM
We probably won't groom Friday night, so I am counting on some fat skis and snowboards and adventuresome loyalists to work it in

We'll be happy to oblige...

Fishwife
12-03-2009, 09:16 PM
SB is the place to be on saturday

Treeskier
12-03-2009, 09:24 PM
It's looking like a shortened season. Remember my old proverb...there is 6 months to the NE ski season. 2 months that su_k, 2 months that are great and 2 some where in the middle. Well we got one of the su_k months over with right off the bat (and it sounds like Whistler got it's best right off). I do remember last year that Dec. turned out to be one of the great months. So chins up or is tips up. Lots to come...

Back to snow dancing ~:)

Strat
12-03-2009, 10:46 PM
It sucks that these early days are being lost, but personally I'm not too unhappy... I won't be home until Saturday the 19th, and by that point, knowing how the weather likes to balance itself out, we could be seeing some real wintryness. Here's to a killer Christmas (snow- and revenue-wise 8) )

HowieT2
12-03-2009, 11:50 PM
We were spoiled the last couple of decembers. Payback time. While it is bumming me out, I can't get up until the 18th (all bets are off if there is powder in the forecast) and I'm confident all will be well by then.

As for SB and snowmaking, I think we all just want to get on the hill ASAP. It's also interesting to discuss how it could be improved. Just like it's great to talk about the improvements coming to the base. Exciting stuff.

Hawk
12-04-2009, 07:33 AM
I totally agree with Arc1 and Lostone's posts. The vibe and the natural snow is what makes this place. I gave up everything from my past life and came here because I was bewitched by that mystical call of the Bush. But having come from somewhere else and having seen what capacity in snowmaking can do, I know SB could be even better. And some of us think that snowmaking is what it will take to get us over the top on the skier visits and cash income. People like dependability. Personally speaking the only knock that my friends have ever had while visiting is the conditions after a bad weather event. Never anything else. :wink:

win
12-04-2009, 08:33 AM
BAD NEWS! The anticipated temperatures did not come in and it stayed warm last night, so we could not make snow on Downspout and actually lost a little ground. We are only on at the top of both mountains and the cover at both mountains isn't going to be adequate to open tomorrow. Hopefully, we can get the temperatures tonight to get enough down on Downspout to open on Sunday. We are doing everything possible but we need the temperatures.

John Walden
12-04-2009, 08:53 AM
Hi Win,

You can't control Mother Nature! I was tempted to get in some golf yesterday knowing that skiing was not to be found. Snow will come soon enough and we will all be happy once again.

teleo
12-04-2009, 09:26 AM
AARRRRGGGG. This weather is killing me. Going to be up anyways, so hopefully Sun works out!.


the cover at both mountains isn't going to be adequate to open tomorrow. Is ME opening first under consideration? I know you don't like to do that, and it isn't as convenient for me, but I'll take whichever is possible at this point!

skiladi
12-04-2009, 09:53 AM
AARRRRGGGG. This weather is killing me. Going to be up anyways, so hopefully Sun works out!.


the cover at both mountains isn't going to be adequate to open tomorrow. Is ME opening first under consideration? I know you don't like to do that, and it isn't as convenient for me, but I'll take whichever is possible at this point!

Check your PM's.

win
12-04-2009, 09:57 AM
ME is now better right now.

ski_it
12-04-2009, 10:06 AM
&$*$&$** weather!

how does Sunday look?

gone.skiing
12-04-2009, 10:20 AM
ME is now better right now.

?

Hawk
12-04-2009, 10:28 AM
ME is now better right now.

?
I think he meant no better right now.......

snowsnakesam
12-04-2009, 05:40 PM
This is snow snake’s wife. The blog would not let me log in on my own…

Any way. I AM STARTING TO GET THE SHAKES. I need to feed my addiction of skiing and I am starting to go through withdrawal. The snow guns have been going all day but the river has as well. It is time for this warm weather to just stop. I have had enough.

Lets all do a snow dance together and get the ski season started.

Sorry I am an addict and sometimes I get a little out of control… BRING ON THE SNOW

Lostone
12-04-2009, 05:59 PM
Welcome to the board. Congratulations on making the first post with that handle, that has been in for almost two years! :lol:


PM me your screen name, and I'll look into it.


As for getting the season going, I'd much rather chat on the computer with all my good friends, here. :wink:

HowieT2
12-04-2009, 06:03 PM
This is snow snake’s wife. The blog would not let me log in on my own…

Any way. I AM STARTING TO GET THE SHAKES. I need to feed my addiction of skiing and I am starting to go through withdrawal. The snow guns have been going all day but the river has as well. It is time for this warm weather to just stop. I have had enough.

Lets all do a snow dance together and get the ski season started.

Sorry I am an addict and sometimes I get a little out of control… BRING ON THE SNOW

welcome to skiers anonymous. The first step is admitting your addiction. :D

G-man
12-04-2009, 06:58 PM
This has been a tough week to weather watch in Boston. I'm not proud to say that I haven't yet turned on my heat this fall. Being a multi-unit building, between the passive solar and warm units around me, I'm saving on heating in this unseasonably warm weather.
I'm headed up soon tonite to the Valley to at least get settled in my place, p/u the pass, see who's around and maybe get in a hike or two.
Doing the snow dance too!!!

Tin Woodsman
12-04-2009, 08:04 PM
I was just referring to this weekend. Too my point, Mt Snow has a ton of firepower, installed 100+ fan guns a couple of years ago when they got new owners. They just announced that they are delaying their opening to Sun. Attitash and Okemo also known for alot of snowmaking firepower, Attitash got bought by the same company that bought Mt Snow and installed 100+ fan guns, as well. Both are also opening on Sat. For this weekend, doesn't matter whether you have 2 trails or 20 trails your blowing snow on this past month. With little base, a big rain event will diseffect the product to the negetive.

If firepower is so important in getting open how come Mt Snow, Attitash, Okemo, Hunter, all known for their snowmaking firepower won't be open until this weekend? Weather trumps firepower just about everytime.

I believe I heard that this past November was one of the warmest on record. I assume that is Vermont or maybe the region. The PNW is getting pounded with snow so far this season, that's a good thing regarding the upcoming Olympics but it was only about 5 years ago(?) that the PNW was almost snowless the whole winter.

To further discredit the company line being spouted above (as if it needs any help in that department), here's an interesting answer on Alpine Zone from Tim Boyd of Peak Resorts regarding the state of snowmaking at Mt. Snow:



The permiting process for Westlake is finally starting to see some daylight. Truthfully, this has been much more difficult that it should have been. The approval process in Vermont is staggering. Common sense and logic are not given much consideration in Vermont’s approval process for these types of projects. Quite frankly it is one of the major contributing factors to the high cost of skiing in the state. As far as water goes, we continue to manage our resources in such a manner that it has not been a problem. Once we finally gain our approvals, we anticipate improving our water situation even more. On a side note, I would like to comment on some of the interesting information about snowmaking I have read on this forum. I have been personally making snow for over 27 years. Peak Resorts uses both fan and air/water technology. I have personally used, and still do, both technologies. The capital investment for fan snowmaking is significantly higher than air/water. So it would make no sense to spend additional money on this technology if there wasn’t a significant advantage to the fans. In marginal temperatures (above 25 degrees) our research and experience shows that fans perform better than air/water both in efficiency and production. You can add extreme amounts of air (very costly) to an air/water gun to get it to make some snow in marginal temperatures. However, there are several advantages the fan technology provides in marginal temperatures. One of these would be the “hang time” advantage of the fans. Longer “hang time” means higher conversion rate thus more snow. Another advantage to the fans is the on-board air compressor. With “on-hill” air comes lots of moisture content in the line (even if you are using air-dryers). More moisture in the air only makes conversion more difficult especially in marginal temperatures. The air from the “on-board” air travels much less distance and has very little moisture build-up. Some air/water guns now also come with “on-board” air too. However, they cannot deliver enough CFM in marginal temperatures to be effective. These advantages really manifest themselves in the conversion rate difference between the fans and air/water. Until you get down to really cold temperatures (under 10 degrees) the conversion rate from water to snow is significantly higher with fan guns. This conversion rate advantage leads to a better quality of snow in the fans. For example, that is why on many occasions when you ski by an air/water gun you are turned into an icicle, but it brushes off of you if ski under a fan. All of this doesn’t mean air/water doesn’t have its applications in certain situations, such as small and narrow areas, or areas where you might desire a wetter product. Since we have installed the fans at Mount Snow we no longer use over $700,000 in diesel fuel and rental. Our electrical consumption for snowmaking has decreased about 11%. Last year we had a 300 hour decrease in our total snowmaking hours. And on top of all of this, we pumped over 30 million gallons more water than we did the year before (example of the conversion rate advantage). Among the truly knowledgeable people in the industry who have put in the time and effort to really research the science of snowmaking, the debate over which technology is superior has been over for some time. With the rising cost of energy the debate becomes only more one-sided. Snowmaking has always been one of my greatest passions in the ski business. I still do it every chance I get. These are just some thoughts from an old snowmaker in trying to separate fact from fiction.

Lostone
12-04-2009, 08:17 PM
Accepting that I live in a very small place, and get a lot of heat out of baking a potato, and that I tend to wear a lot of stuff, inside, I've used very little heat, this season, too.

That has been one of the good sides. Another is that, all the extra time to wear my new ski boots around the condo has moved them from little torture chambers to, "I can ski in these. I just need these two places..."

On the other side... I WANT TO GET GOING!! :cry:


Other than that, welcome to the board.


Oh yeah... The snowguns have been going most of the day. 8)

win
12-04-2009, 08:32 PM
Better temps tonight! Low E guns that we have installed have had similar results. We got rid of diesel generators a few years ago! Fans Guns work in certain areas and are not as good in others.

shadyjay
12-04-2009, 10:29 PM
It is 10:26pm and I just took my dog outside before bed, while listening to the guns crankin' up on Downspout. Weird looking glow over the top of Gadd Peak... can't see LP summit from my vantage point. Adjacent creeks/streams alongside "Village Run" trail are haulin' right now and it appears the crews (Kingsbury and Bush) have finished the road repairs caused by the r@!n - clogged culverts, drains and such.

See y'all real soon!

win
12-05-2009, 07:51 AM
WE had a good night of snowmaking and the temperatures were a bit colder than forecast, so we were able to put all the firepower on Downspout down to Heaven's Gate lift at LP and Elbow and Rim Run D down to the Summit Lift. Opening tomorrow is looking much better and we will let everyone know soon. I may have to go up and personal inspect everything this morning.

vonski
12-05-2009, 08:01 AM
We want to ski tomorrow. under guns if needed and with rock skis if needed and at Ellen if needed. . definitely a lot colder out this morning!

Hawk
12-05-2009, 08:57 AM
This is snow snake’s wife. The blog would not let me log in on my own…

Any way. I AM STARTING TO GET THE SHAKES. I need to feed my addiction of skiing and I am starting to go through withdrawal. The snow guns have been going all day but the river has as well. It is time for this warm weather to just stop. I have had enough.

Lets all do a snow dance together and get the ski season started.

Sorry I am an addict and sometimes I get a little out of control… BRING ON THE SNOW
I know you! Maybe us two addicts should get together tonight and drown our sorrows. :wink:

beelze
12-05-2009, 12:05 PM
I think we can all understand the difficulties this weather has presented throughout the north east. However, I think the relevant point on the capacity debate now needs to turn to how much quicker can some of these other mountains get full coverage (and sufficient depth) for what the average joe would consider an acceptable (not great) experience? That means not having to rely on the rock skis for fear of damaging your regular gear. Mid-season it would be more a question of how much quicker/better their touch ups would be in comparison.

On a related snowmaking topic, I understand why Sugarbush makes the large piles with the guns and I think in general the snowmaking has been better the past two years. However, I do wish they would rope the larger piles off until they are relocated. I'd also suggest that there should be no snowmaking in the areas near lift exits during daytime and that piles made the night before in those areas be distributed by the time customers are hitting the mountain. Its one thing to have to dodge a few guns going down a run and one certainly has a choice not to do those runs, quite another to have to deal with the negatives every time off the lift.

gone.skiing
12-05-2009, 03:18 PM
Something is coming down from the sky at the base... I do not remember the word for it, but it is white and looks good.

HowieT2
12-05-2009, 05:22 PM
Something is coming down from the sky at the base... I do not remember the word for it, but it is white and looks good.

bring it on.

snowing hard here in the hudson valley.

Tin Woodsman
12-05-2009, 05:45 PM
Better temps tonight! Low E guns that we have installed have had similar results. We got rid of diesel generators a few years ago! Fans Guns work in certain areas and are not as good in others.

No question. They both have their place. As discussed before, it's difficult for me to believe they wouldn't be an improvement over what's in place on the wider, lower mountain runs and intersections where you need high volume and a longer throw in more marginal temps with a shorter window.

win
12-05-2009, 08:00 PM
They very well might. They also cost about $30,000 installed on a pole. They require electrical wiring tool Our new HKD tower guns run about $3,000 each so you get ten for one fan gun. As we move forward we will likely invest in both.

Tin Woodsman
12-06-2009, 02:56 AM
They very well might. They also cost about $30,000 installed on a pole. They require electrical wiring tool Our new HKD tower guns run about $3,000 each so you get ten for one fan gun. As we move forward we will likely invest in both.

I'm sure you've looked into it in detail, but given that your production budget is orders of magnitude larger than that, surely there is opportunity to recoup that differential over several years via increased efficiency and, ultimately, more customers due to a more attractive early season and post-thaw product. When I see the companies in the industry with the deepest commitment to snowmaking, a higher and higher % of their fleet is fan guns. That's extremely interesting in my view.

Here's hoping for a long stretch of cold weather.