PDA

View Full Version : Ski school ?



barkbiter
10-16-2009, 12:46 PM
What's up with a telemark skier running the alpine ski school ?
Isn't that like hiring a golf instructor to teach tennis ?
I also hear rumors of keeping the Blazer programs out of the woods and away from Castletock, is it true ?
These PSIA guys just love to ski on the groomed runs only.
Isn't Sugarbush known for the best off trail woods skiing in the east?
Why can't we just ski it ?

Atkinson where are you ? Help !

win
10-16-2009, 04:10 PM
I don't know where you are getting all your misinformation? Your questions suggest that someone is feeding you totally incorrect information!

notorious
10-16-2009, 04:32 PM
Quick reply, Win. Anyone with questions can PM Win, or contact him offline. I've found him open and responsive to loyal customer concerns.

HowieT2
10-16-2009, 05:32 PM
What's up with a telemark skier running the alpine ski school ?
Isn't that like hiring a golf instructor to teach tennis ?
I also hear rumors of keeping the Blazer programs out of the woods and away from Castletock, is it true ?
These PSIA guys just love to ski on the groomed runs only.
Isn't Sugarbush known for the best off trail woods skiing in the east?
Why can't we just ski it ?

Atkinson where are you ? Help !

seems like you've already been corrected so I should leave well enough alone, but what you said makes no sense. How could they be staying out of the woods when they have adventure and mountaineering blazers which they charge a premium for?

barkbiter
10-16-2009, 05:45 PM
I heard it from my good friend Jacques le Guide who says he heard it from some feller named Mcsquinty

vonski
10-16-2009, 05:46 PM
I always considered Telemarking to be Alpine skiing in just a different method. It certainly is not Nordic. My son used to ski one day on fixed heal and the other on free heal when he was in Blazers. But due to expenses he now is only fixed heal. Just can't afford both types for his quiver of skis. Also not sure that comparing Telemark to Alpine is the same as tennis to golf. And why would the mountain open up so many more woods runs if they were going to keep the future of the mountain out of those woods? Like Win said this has got to be bad information.

klop
10-16-2009, 06:08 PM
From Wikipedia. So it must be right:

Nordic skiing is a winter sport that encompasses all types of skiing where the heel of the boot cannot be fixed to the ski. This includes a wide range of ski equipment and techniques such as classic and skate cross country skiing, ski jumping, biathlon, and telemark skiing. It also involves racing.

win
10-16-2009, 06:27 PM
McQuinty sounds like the captain in Jaws. Bill McGinty is the Director of our ski and ride school. We obviously have guidelines for our adventure and mountain blazers programs since we are responsbile for the safety of the children in the programs. This is not new. If anyone wants to contact me directly, my email is wsmith@sugarbush.com and my phone is 802-583-6832. We didn't create more wooded trail this year to keep people only on groomed trails.

gone.skiing
10-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?

ski_resort_observer
10-16-2009, 10:03 PM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?

http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album33/head_screaming.jpg

Strat
10-17-2009, 12:07 AM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?
They have for quite a while, no?

vonski
10-17-2009, 08:32 AM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?
They have for quite a while, no?
My sons normal Blazers groups used to ski all the unmarked woods on the upper mountain. I would not know the names with out him telling me what they are!!!! For the sake of the program lets hope that continues. :D

Lostone
10-17-2009, 08:55 AM
Which "program" is that? The Blazers program, or the one where you get to know the "trail" names? :wink:

Jacksun
10-17-2009, 09:07 AM
Two seasons ago ('07/'08) both my daughters (in different Blazers groups) skied all the woods all the time, including Church, Wedding, Slidebrook, etc. They had a ball (as most of the kids seem to). Last season ('08/'09) they informed my wife and I that the rules had been changed and that in order to ski the "off map" woods, they had to combine with at least one other Blazers group plus an extra coach (I think I've got that right, my aging brain loses things quickly these days). Regardless, they did far less woods skiing than the year before and were disappointed. The rules for going in to Slidebrook were tightened further, and I believe my older one, who's group did Slidebrook a lot two years ago, never went in once last season.

I absolutely appreciate the need for safety and to avoid reckless behavior, especially on skis and with trees, yet I'm torn because I want my kids to get in there to learn skiing woods properly, to appreciate the beauty of the trees and to have fun. I don't know what the balance is, but I am hoping (conditions permitting) that this season they can get back in there again, at least more than last year!

vonski
10-17-2009, 09:32 AM
Two seasons ago ('07/'08) both my daughters (in different Blazers groups) skied all the woods all the time, including Church, Wedding, Slidebrook, etc. They had a ball (as most of the kids seem to). Last season ('08/'09) they informed my wife and I that the rules had been changed and that in order to ski the "off map" woods, they had to combine with at least one other Blazers group plus an extra coach (I think I've got that right, my aging brain loses things quickly these days). Regardless, they did far less woods skiing than the year before and were disappointed. The rules for going in to Slidebrook were tightened further, and I believe my older one, who's group did Slidebrook a lot two years ago, never went in once last season.

I absolutely appreciate the need for safety and to avoid reckless behavior, especially on skis and with trees, yet I'm torn because I want my kids to get in there to learn skiing woods properly, to appreciate the beauty of the trees and to have fun. I don't know what the balance is, but I am hoping (conditions permitting) that this season they can get back in there again, at least more than last year!

my experiences were from 06/07 and 07/08. I do remember two coaches at least for all wood runs at that time as well. So who knows. But the program definitely stands above from the rest if they continue the tree skiing.

skigal
10-17-2009, 10:52 AM
The programs have evolved in many ways since my children started 10 years ago, generally for the better. That said, there has definately been an increased focus on woods safety, which has made it more difficult for the coaches to ski the woods as they did in the past. This is true for the adult programs as well. I would suggest Bill M. or the new head of seasonal programs make sure every participant and parent understands what they can and cannot ski priot to season beginning to prevent further dissappointments.

Lostone
10-17-2009, 12:29 PM
I have nothing to do with the Blazer program, but I like the idea of requiring two coaches for woods operations.

The general rules in the woods is ski with at least 2 others. That way, should someting happen one can stay with the injured, while the other goes for help.

In the case of one of the programs, if it was one of the kids, which does the coach do? You need one coach to do each.

gone.skiing
10-17-2009, 01:51 PM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?

http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album33/head_screaming.jpg

WTF is this supposed to mean? Would you care to elaborate?

Whatever new requirements are, the bottom line is less "adventure"... It appears that regulations are introduced without subsequent support to maintain the level of the program as multiple parents pointed out above. Anyone with kids in the programs would have seen the difference between 07/08 and 08/09 seasons. I am just hoping that my younger child in a few years can experience the ALC Egan style, not PSIA/Deer Valley/Stratton flavor.

Win, I would definitely like to take you up on the offer to catch up in person. Perhaps a conversation on a chair once the place opens up...

PS: I am not trying to debate two coaches for the woods part of this thread...

Tin Woodsman
10-17-2009, 02:40 PM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?

http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album33/head_screaming.jpg

WTF is this supposed to mean? Would you care to elaborate?

Whatever new requirements are, the bottom line is less "adventure"... It appears that regulations are introduced without subsequent support to maintain the level of the program as multiple parents pointed out above. Anyone with kids in the programs would have seen the difference between 07/08 and 08/09 seasons. I am just hoping that my younger child in a few years can experience the ALC Egan style, not PSIA/Deer Valley/Stratton flavor.

Win, I would definitely like to take you up on the offer to catch up in person. Perhaps a conversation on a chair once the place opens up...

PS: I am not trying to debate two coaches for the woods part of this thread...
It should be pretty clear that it's the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil brigade chiming in with the usual contribution.

win
10-17-2009, 05:14 PM
gone skiing call me anytime.

I really do not think they is going to be any less adventure! Egan and Atkinson are very much involved in all our year around adventure programs, and I think we have the best anywhere! Programs are at another record level.

Brew Ski
10-18-2009, 08:22 AM
A few comments on the previous parts of this thread:

At community day, Win was pretty clear about everyone (day skiers, programs) getting access to the new wooded trails. If you want to explore the "hidden" trails or those that are new but not put on the map, Get involved with a seasonal program or hire one of the many excellent coaches for a session (Egan, VT North coaches, Atkinson, etc).

More to the point about skiing off piste, Win also spoke a few minutes about the new facets of the Bush Pilots program which entails "off site and off Piste" outings. This is a new value added feature of the program and makes it one of a kind in the East, if not the whole country. Exploring the woods at Jay Peak, Skinning up and skiing Tuckerman's, hitting the outback between Smuggs and Stowe are examples of off site challenges/fun. The details are still being worked out but Win and Sugarbush are positive about this type of skiing and there are still a few more spots available.

PSIA based coaching is a great way to learn to ski well, turn on most any snow surface and can prepare you for racing. One might say a tried and true method. However, it doesn't teach you how to ski off piste, be aware of outback dangers, and ski techniques for jumps, hucks, and tree skiing. This type of skiing is of favor for many people, especially on this board. When asked directly after his speech, Win confirmed his support for the Bush Pilots program and the advanced techniques they will be pursuing. Hopefully he will join them for an adventure. It is a really great group of skiers and they have a lot of fun.

The added glades, the "adventure" in the seasonal programs, cat skiing, and now off site visits, I believe, sets Sugarbush well apart from other mountains in the country. Sugarbush is becoming the home base for ski adventures of all types. We just need a heli-adventure to pick us up at Lincoln peak and drop us on top of Tucks. Then Sugarbush will be the best in all North America bar none!

Safety rules state one coach to lead through off piste woods/trails, and one to sweep to ensure no one gets lost. 1 coach for every 7 skiers of any age. Safety first and last.

Let it snow!

ski_resort_observer
10-18-2009, 11:06 AM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?

http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album33/head_screaming.jpg

WTF is this supposed to mean? Would you care to elaborate?

Whatever new requirements are, the bottom line is less "adventure"... It appears that regulations are introduced without subsequent support to maintain the level of the program as multiple parents pointed out above. Anyone with kids in the programs would have seen the difference between 07/08 and 08/09 seasons. I am just hoping that my younger child in a few years can experience the ALC Egan style, not PSIA/Deer Valley/Stratton flavor.

Win, I would definitely like to take you up on the offer to catch up in person. Perhaps a conversation on a chair once the place opens up...

PS: I am not trying to debate two coaches for the woods part of this thread...
It should be pretty clear that it's the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil brigade chiming in with the usual contribution.

Tin...nice try to incite but your not even close. It was merely a humorous response to the mention of certain terrain at the Bush on a public forum. Remembering your heated debates on EpicSki a few years ago about this issue I'm surprised you missed that.

Tin Woodsman
10-18-2009, 03:38 PM
Will Adventure Blazers groups be allowed to ski Church, Bear Claw or is it mapped woods only?

http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album33/head_screaming.jpg

WTF is this supposed to mean? Would you care to elaborate?

Whatever new requirements are, the bottom line is less "adventure"... It appears that regulations are introduced without subsequent support to maintain the level of the program as multiple parents pointed out above. Anyone with kids in the programs would have seen the difference between 07/08 and 08/09 seasons. I am just hoping that my younger child in a few years can experience the ALC Egan style, not PSIA/Deer Valley/Stratton flavor.

Win, I would definitely like to take you up on the offer to catch up in person. Perhaps a conversation on a chair once the place opens up...

PS: I am not trying to debate two coaches for the woods part of this thread...
It should be pretty clear that it's the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil brigade chiming in with the usual contribution.

Tin...nice try to incite but your not even close. It was merely ahumorous response to the mention of certain terrain at the Bush on a public forum. Remembering your heated debates on EpicSki a few years ago about this issue I'm surprised you missed that.

My bad - and yes I did miss that. Whoooosh! Sorry.

No need to return to the days of A/T skier.

gone.skiing
10-18-2009, 06:49 PM
Please, not the secret stashes debate again... I wonder if they get bent out of shape at Jay when someone mentions Big Jay or Dip.

TreeBandit
10-18-2009, 10:17 PM
I like to ski both on and off piste even with my child, but I do not believe none adventure groups should be taken on non-official trails. If we get in trouble for talking about them here and even with two instructors kids should not be taken in to off resort areas. I wont go into the name of the trial but please tell me how an instructor is going to ensure a child does not fall off a 10-20 foot clif? will they throw themself in front of the child like a parent would.

I ski these areas, but I do not feel that my 10 year old is ready. I think if if fine for the instructors to take the kids into the marked woods. But I do not expect an instructor to take a child into these areas without the parents permission, which I do not remember seeing any reference to the unmentionable areas on the permission forms.

I would have thought that this is the reason that SB has different programs and only the adventure programs would go into these areas and the other groups would remain on offical areas that we are only allowed to talk about.

HowieT2
10-19-2009, 09:08 AM
I have two kids in blazers ages 9 & 13. I have obviously spent a good bit of time skiing with my son and his friends in the woods. I also must admit, I often ski alone in places where I know I should not be going by myself. But I'm an adult and am responsible for my own safety. If anything happens to me, it's my problem. That being said , requiring two supervisors, whether they be instructors, patrol or whomever, taking the kids in the woods, is the responsible thing to do. When I'm skiing with my son, who knows SB like the back of his hand, I try never to let him out of my sight. and when we are with other kids, I would never go off trail with more than 1 additional kid. There must be a leader and a follower to make sure all the kids are together and everyone is OK. In fact, if I was a blazer coach, I would refuse to take my group into the woods without another adult. The bottom line is, any adult who takes kids off trail is responsible for their safety. That is without question the overriding priority, even on powder days. It is simply impossible for 1 coach to keep track of 6-8 kids in the woods.

barkbiter
10-19-2009, 11:07 AM
You gals should pack up your skirts and go to Stratton. Sugarbush is all about adventure skiing.

HowieT2
10-19-2009, 11:43 AM
You gals should pack up your skirts and go to Stratton. Sugarbush is all about adventure skiing.

adventure this.

and F stratton. Every friday night I have another hour and a half to go when I pass manchester on 7. those Stratton people always slow things down before exit 4 so I loathe them.

I'll "adventure" with the best of them, even you BB, and I'll do it with my own son also. But when you are responsible for other people's children, you cannot have a cavalier attitude about safety, lest something goes wrong.

TreeBandit
10-19-2009, 01:05 PM
That is funny. :lol: I thought MRG was all about adventure. I guess SB will be selling the groomers soon as why do you need them and we can go allnatural. I think you are missing the point....I take my child in these areas, and if I signed her up for an adventure program (if they had a one day program like I keep suggesting (MRG has a one day program for girls and boys) she would be signed up as I have a trust in the instructors and I take the responcibility when I sign up since I know what is expected. But reallity is here and not all instructors are at the same level in skill and maturity for all groups.

Again I think it is great that the groups ski the woods as part of the program. The issues is when the parent does not know that thier child is being taken "OUT OF BOUNDS" and off the property. Also how many of you have seen kids alone in the woods without an adult to hear "well I ski here with my instructure so I thought it was okay.


And as a note it is called a "kilt". :shock:

Hawk
10-19-2009, 02:09 PM
gone skiing call me anytime.

I really do not think they is going to be any less adventure! Egan and Atkinson are very much involved in all our year around adventure programs, and I think we have the best anywhere! Programs are at another record level.

Oh well, I thought with the BP's off site and the adventure programs reined in I might have the woods to myself for a change. Drats!!! :wink:

The stress level is way up this year with lots of unconfirmed rumors. People lets get the story confirmed before the lynch mob is assembled.

Now back to your regularly scheduled ski stoke........

gone.skiing
10-20-2009, 01:43 PM
I will split my reply into a couple of posts to separate stoke from issues a little bit....

I am probably a relative newbie at the Bush compared to some people on this board. When my son was old enough to join a seasonal program, there was only one place we wanted to ski: Sugarbush. The reason? John Egan and his crew of instructors and random ski bums, their teaching and skiing philosophy. Later we came to appreciate Win's hands on approach and his presence on the mountain. It still blows my socks off that I see the owner just about every day managing lift lines, running snow removal equipment to restore power or just ripping it up through icy bumps on Steins.

However, for me it all started with ski school philosophy. I was and still am very impressed by what adventure blazer coaches are doing to make our kids better skiers and better individuals for that matter. Team work, respect for others in the group, keeping track of each other in the woods, staying safe (warm, dry, fed) whatever that means is a huge part of the process. It is not just about skiing as far as I am concerned. We had one season with blazers and two with adventure blazers, 4 different coaches and without exception they were truly "exceptional".

In 3 shorts seasons my son went from

barely surviving powder

http://searcher.smugmug.com/photos/232757508_s8E7m-M.jpg

to air turns

http://searcher.smugmug.com/photos/240941277_i76PU-M.jpg

to really enjoying Castlerock

http://searcher.smugmug.com/photos/449691929_d7LVt-M.jpg

to shredding in Jackson Hole

http://searcher.smugmug.com/photos/484393316_4UYD3-M.jpg

http://searcher.smugmug.com/photos/484393911_x4E7b-M.jpg

to skiing in Castlerock Challenge (photo credit John Atkinson)

http://searcher.smugmug.com/photos/687173620_tLjiT-M.jpg

I can't say enough how much I appreciate the work that coaches put in on and off the clock to bring skiing to our kids. VT north crew that takes time to slow down and show something as we are skiing along, 3:55 chair with John Egan who always shows up for one last run just as you are ready to call it. Somehow kids always find one extra gear when those guys are around. We could not find that at other mountains and I hope it continues.

This past season, my son got fast and strong enough to the point where he can match adults run for run pretty much. There is not a better feeling than to share a powder day such as this one with your kid...

http://vimeo.com/6274081

/end of soap box transmission

gone.skiing
10-20-2009, 02:41 PM
To get back to the topic:

Brew Ski,
with all dew respect asking everyone to remain calm and saying that everything is cool is not productive. Bush pilots thing is far from set in stone AFAIK. In my phone conversation with Bill there was "nothing new for Bush pilots this year". Without exception every parent that posted in this thread and many more that are not members on this board have the same impression about kids curriculum. Terrain selection was severely impacted by new policies (management) this past season. It is not a speculation, it is an observable fact. I would pick up my kid at the end of a powder day and find out that they never made it to CR or HG. Forget the woods, they never rode those chairs. This happened on multiple occasions.

Hawk,
we are not speculating. These are not rumors. Things changed last year and everyone felt the impact. Parents did not get notified of changes in the policy after they paid money and assumed that things would be at the same level as prior season. A number of people myself included are considering whether to spend money on the program this year.

Treebandit.
there are two major categories: Blazers and Adventure Blazers. Within those kids are separated by levels. For the purposes of this discussion we are talking about kids who are ready for the challenge. By the way if your kid's group skied Slidebrook that is technically OB.

Just as I thought everyone seems to be focusing on the two coaches issue, etc. I do not think that anyone is arguing that we need to take responsible approach. Enough coaches, right training, right equipment... The question is will Sugarbush make it possible for kids to enjoy all kinds of terrain or just make it impossible for coaches to go there? Lets assume that everyone is being a professional about it and focus on larger issue.

I find the comment above about kids being safer with parent in advanced terrain rather curious. Are you trained in CPR and OEC? Do you spend 100+ days on the mountain and know those runs by heart? Are you qualified to coach your kid through tricky sections? Do you have information from other groups about snow conditions in particular area? Have you spent last 10+ years coaching kids, watching them develop, evaluating their ability and skiing with them in all conditions? If you can answer yes to at least some of these, my hat goes off to you. If not, your kid is much safer with JA, Doug, Diggity, Watie, Julia, JE, etc... What does throwing one off the cliff have to do with anything? I can't even figure out what that is supposed to mean... Although I did hear stories about John Egan jumping off GH chair onto Waterfall to go get help for severely injured skier.

In terms of safety conditions are often much better in the woods then they are on the trails. My scariest moment on skis at Sugarbush was two years ago on frozen rock solid Ripcord. That was both scary and educational. At the same time trees skied just fine. A friend of mine got taken out on a groomer at Vail and ended up in the hospital with broken back. Every day coaches make the call where to ski and I rely on them to figure out where best conditions are. As a matter of fact, I join kids group if their plan is better than mine.

I have skied with John Egan on a few occasions all over US and was never able to figure out how coaches know what every student is capable of. I am guessing it is called experience. They would never take kids or adults for that matter into unsafe situation. I firmly believe that and that is why I sign that release each year for Adventure Blazers.

If we want to talk about rumors, I also heard that entire Castlerock chair could become off limits for (regular/adventure?) blazers. I am hoping that is not the case, but would not consider it out of realm of possibility. How are the kids supposed to ski in Castlerock Challenge in spring if they can't train on Lift Line? Majority of the kids in adventure blazers groups will ski over rock/grass/trees/small animals, before they ski a groomer. They are there to ski powder, jump of things, ski tightest tree line and brag to the parents about it. This is what adventure blazers system provides. It is unique to Sugarbush/MRG/Stowe/Jay and this is what sets it apart from our neighbors down $outh. We are signing up kids into big mountain/off piste/all terrain program. Castlerock/HG/Slidebrook/trees are all huge part of it. This brings me to the fact that a few times last year I did not drop my son off for Blazers because I wanted him to ski some of the runs that he did not get a chance to hit all season. It is a bummer to be in a position to have to make that choice.

Lastly let's be honest, kids live for woods runs, especially for glamorous ones. There are only so many time a 10 year old will get excited about skiing deeper sleeper and eden. If we want to keep their attention we need better carrots. I can get two weeks worth of chores out of my son with a single promise to ski Bear Claw. Church used to be project for older groups, they would watch conditions and try to catch it when it is right. It is a highlight of their season. That to me is all part of their education, know when conditions are right, who to go with and how to do it safely.

I am hoping that news about Adventure blazers will be more along the line of addition of features not introduction or additional barriers. Perfect example is that adventure coaches got terrain park training last year. This was a great and very welcome addition to the usual repertoire.

Phew... sorry about the long winded post...

Hawk
10-20-2009, 03:15 PM
GS, you are very passionate about this. I have to admit that I have no kids and have never taken part in any programs although Brewski, Notorious and 007 keep asking. This would be the first I have heard about the toning down of the kids programs. Personally I think it's a bad idea to modify a program that was working and brining joy to so many people. I have witnessed firsthand the kids buzzing around the hill in and out of the woods and thought "Wow.. I wish I did that when I was young". Anyway your last two posts were good. I hope somebody is listening. Good Luck.

notorious
10-20-2009, 03:39 PM
Gone.skiing, thank you for the thoughtful analysis. There is a lot said there. Before adding any of my thoughts, I have one question, ...Just what was it that Bill meant regarding "nothing new for Bush Pilots this year"? As you know, and as Win announced publicly at Community Day and confirmed to Brewski in a separate conversation reported in the contribution above, the BP program will this year include optional backcountry trips to other locations (Mt Washington, (specifically mentioned) Bolton, Stowe, Jay etc). Is Bill contradicting this, or am I needlessly alarmed? As you well know, customers want this, enrolled based on it, and are buying AT equipment to enable their participation. It has been advertised for 3 years. It's about time it became reality.

Before I get worked up, I'd like your interpretation of Bill's remark.

Excellent contribution, BTW. The pictures say it all.

gone.skiing
10-20-2009, 03:51 PM
I have never taken part in any programs although Brewski, Notorious and 007 keep asking.

Hawk, let's go... This is the year as they like to say in Boston on any number of occasions.

notorious,
Interpret it as you may...
Two days before early sign up deadline (same time I talked to you) I called ski school to ask about bush pilots. I was looking for clarification about some petty stuff (race pass, early morning Sunday training, 15% discount for people with kids, could have sworn they had it first year) and in general for information that would convince me to drop $900 for the program. Lady at the desk could not answer questions, but she did track down and called me back when Bill was available. He got on the phone, gave me three yes/no answers for simple questions. His answer to my general question: "Is there anything new about the program that I should know?", was "No, nothing really new".

WWF-VT
10-20-2009, 03:55 PM
My son participates in the Adventure Blazers program. He has had great coaching and skied just about everything on the mountain. My expectation is that Sugarbush will continue the "Adventure" part of the program - it is called "Egan's Adventure Blazers". I do know that last year the Ski School had a list of four Off-Piste Zones that had increasing levels of requirements that had to be met to allow a coach/coaches to take their groups off the map. The requirements make sense – carrying a pack with safety gear, radio/cell, second coach, checking in/out with dispatch/patrol. Zone 4 also required that you were with an Outback guide, Outback-certified coach, Bush Pilot Coach or John Egan.

HowieT2
10-20-2009, 04:28 PM
To get back to the topic:

Brew Ski,
with all dew respect asking everyone to remain calm and saying that everything is cool is not productive. Bush pilots thing is far from set in stone AFAIK. In my phone conversation with Bill there was "nothing new for Bush pilots this year". Without exception every parent that posted in this thread and many more that are not members on this board have the same impression about kids curriculum. Terrain selection was severely impacted by new policies (management) this past season. It is not a speculation, it is an observable fact. I would pick up my kid at the end of a powder day and find out that they never made it to CR or HG. Forget the woods, they never rode those chairs. This happened on multiple occasions.

Hawk,
we are not speculating. These are not rumors. Things changed last year and everyone felt the impact. Parents did not get notified of changes in the policy after they paid money and assumed that things would be at the same level as prior season. A number of people myself included are considering whether to spend money on the program this year.

Treebandit.
there are two major categories: Blazers and Adventure Blazers. Within those kids are separated by levels. For the purposes of this discussion we are talking about kids who are ready for the challenge. By the way if your kid's group skied Slidebrook that is technically OB.

Just as I thought everyone seems to be focusing on the two coaches issue, etc. I do not think that anyone is arguing that we need to take responsible approach. Enough coaches, right training, right equipment... The question is will Sugarbush make it possible for kids to enjoy all kinds of terrain or just make it impossible for coaches to go there? Lets assume that everyone is being a professional about it and focus on larger issue.

I find the comment above about kids being safer with parent in advanced terrain rather curious. Are you trained in CPR and OEC? Do you spend 100+ days on the mountain and know those runs by heart? Are you qualified to coach your kid through tricky sections? Do you have information from other groups about snow conditions in particular area? Have you spent last 10+ years coaching kids, watching them develop, evaluating their ability and skiing with them in all conditions? If you can answer yes to at least some of these, my hat goes off to you. If not, your kid is much safer with JA, Doug, Diggity, Watie, Julia, JE, etc... What does throwing one off the cliff have to do with anything? I can't even figure out what that is supposed to mean... Although I did hear stories about John Egan jumping off GH chair onto Waterfall to go get help for severely injured skier.

In terms of safety conditions are often much better in the woods then they are on the trails. My scariest moment on skis at Sugarbush was two years ago on frozen rock solid Ripcord. That was both scary and educational. At the same time trees skied just fine. A friend of mine got taken out on a groomer at Vail and ended up in the hospital with broken back. Every day coaches make the call where to ski and I rely on them to figure out where best conditions are. As a matter of fact, I join kids group if their plan is better than mine.

I have skied with John Egan on a few occasions all over US and was never able to figure out how coaches know what every student is capable of. I am guessing it is called experience. They would never take kids or adults for that matter into unsafe situation. I firmly believe that and that is why I sign that release each year for Adventure Blazers.

If we want to talk about rumors, I also heard that entire Castlerock chair could become off limits for (regular/adventure?) blazers. I am hoping that is not the case, but would not consider it out of realm of possibility. How are the kids supposed to ski in Castlerock Challenge in spring if they can't train on Lift Line? Majority of the kids in adventure blazers groups will ski over rock/grass/trees/small animals, before they ski a groomer. They are there to ski powder, jump of things, ski tightest tree line and brag to the parents about it. This is what adventure blazers system provides. It is unique to Sugarbush/MRG/Stowe/Jay and this is what sets it apart from our neighbors down $outh. We are signing up kids into big mountain/off piste/all terrain program. Castlerock/HG/Slidebrook/trees are all huge part of it. This brings me to the fact that a few times last year I did not drop my son off for Blazers because I wanted him to ski some of the runs that he did not get a chance to hit all season. It is a bummer to be in a position to have to make that choice.

Lastly let's be honest, kids live for woods runs, especially for glamorous ones. There are only so many time a 10 year old will get excited about skiing deeper sleeper and eden. If we want to keep their attention we need better carrots. I can get two weeks worth of chores out of my son with a single promise to ski Bear Claw. Church used to be project for older groups, they would watch conditions and try to catch it when it is right. It is a highlight of their season. That to me is all part of their education, know when conditions are right, who to go with and how to do it safely.

I am hoping that news about Adventure blazers will be more along the line of addition of features not introduction or additional barriers. Perfect example is that adventure coaches got terrain park training last year. This was a great and very welcome addition to the usual repertoire.

Phew... sorry about the long winded post...

Thanks for the perspective.
Last season was my daughter's second in Blazers. It wasn't nearly as good as the first, and I expressed this to both Win and John. But I thought that this was an issue particular to her group and her instructor. It was my son's first year in adventure blazers and he was happy, but he's always happy, especially when skiing. Not having been involved in prior years to compare his experience, I thought the program was the same but dependent on weather, conditions, etc. Evidently that is not the case.

This is not an issue that only effects participation in blazers. It goes well beyond that. Towards the end of last season, my daughter who was 8, did not want to ski with her blazer group. They weren't doing anything fun or challenging. Clearly, if she's bored with blazers, it's not worth spending 1000 bucks on. But more significantly, if she's not psyched to hit the mountain every weekend, I'm going to have hard time getting her in the car for the 4.5 hour drive every friday. Once that starts happening, it's not just two kids you lose from blazers, but two season pass sales for my wife and I, and all that goes with a family being at the mountain 40+ days a year (until they're off to college that is). It is a significant sacrifice for a family to come to SB every weekend.

Blazers is about the kids having fun more than learning the how to ski. The kids in the program already know how to ski.

As indicated in my previous post, I understand that the program must be supervised in a responsible manner. As a trial lawyer I am particularly familiar with liability concerns. If this is what's is driving the unwelcome changes, there are additional steps SB could take to better insulate itself, but that's not something to talk about in an open forum.

I hope the powers that be understand how important the free spirit of the blazer program is to the momentum SB has gathered over the past years. New lodges, condos, lifts, snowmaking, etc. aren't going to mean much if you don't have families who want to be better here.

Jacksun
10-20-2009, 04:44 PM
First, I need to clarify my much earlier post re number of coaches: my understanding was that in addition to two groups combining when going into the woods, which therefore would have two coaches by definition, a third coach/instructor was the additional requirement. The problem as identified by my daughters last year was that while there was willingness to do woods, there was not often the availability of a third coach who just happened to be doing nothing at that time. So the outcome was far less tree skiing than the year before.

I echo the Howie's last comments: my kids were both unhappy with their Blazer experience last year. They were disappointed about the reduced tree skiing, they too went to CR far less than the year before and my older one especially got stuck doing terrain park stuff far more than she cared to, missing out on skiing CR and trees on some of the really good snow days. My younger one did a lot of what I'd call ski school stuff (drills, follow the instructor, etc.) instead of just skiing, and did not ski as many challenging runs as she did the previous year. It was more like Blazers than Adventure Blazers.

Again, I understand and agree with all those who have posted about the need for increased safety and we did sign them up again for this year, but we are hoping that the coaching team can figure out a way to bring the magic back!

vonski
10-20-2009, 04:51 PM
Although, I do not have any children ready for Blazers at this time as my son who is 11 and in six grade has moved onto skiing with me or his friends at Ellen. I have been curious as to the new approach. As I said earlier in a post two years ago, my sons group would ski Bear claw, woods on Castlerock and other unmarked woods. I used to tag along sometimes as I was skiing alone and at least I was near a group then. It seemed to me that the groups would stay together on the beaten path when in the woods as I would venture off the beaten path to bushwack. On the upper mountain two groups would get together to venture into such places. The marked woods as I recall were free game with only the single instructor. There were days where the group had to hit some woods on every run. as it was a powder woods day.

I went and read the descriptions of the different programs and found that Adventure and Mountaineering Blazers by description will still be hitting up all of the mountain. The Blazer program states wooded terrain, but nothing about the whole mountain. If this is the case, the 70 new acres should allow for some good wood skiing still for the Blazer groups, but if only allowed into the marked woods then it is far from what I remember.

I rode the chair lift with Egan after one such upper mountain run ( that I did not know existed) with the regular blazer group my son was in and we were both thinking about how great this would have been if this all existed when we were 10.

Brew Ski
10-20-2009, 06:51 PM
Hey GS,
Really great post. Thoughtful consideration and explanation of your experience and concerns. I think it is very helpful that you contributed these ideas to the forum.

I was quoting a line from the movie "Animal House" uttered by Kevin Bacon when things were clearly not "all is well", especially for his character. Sorry you missed the reference.

As I mentioned, The President and CEO of Sugarbush, Win Smith announced in public at Community Day, that there were new adventures for many of the programs including the Bush Pilots. In particular he confirmed that plans are in progress for some off site adventures for the Bush Pilots. When asked directly in person if these changes were in fact true, not just speculation he confirmed. He was even asked to join the Bush Pilots for some sessions since we have such a great day, every day. I will put faith in the fact that Win is a man of his word, and that he is trying to make Sugarbush an extraordinary mountain. With John Egan and John Atkinsson involved, the adventure programs have great potential. To that point there were at least 6 Bush Pilots competing in the Castlerock Extreme this past season. This program works!

I signed up for Bush Pilots with this information. I'm currently pricing out AT gear in anticipation of learning new mountain skills and getting to some new terrain. I will be thoroughly disappointed, if I have bought a season pass, bought Bush Pilot Membership and new program specific gear to find out I have to spend the Season on trails and in bounds. I have friends who ski at Stowe at the level of Bush Pilots, and can easily go there instead of Sugarbush next year if the Mountain lets the program deteriorate to the same old stuff at other mountains.

The customers (Season pass holders) are asking for more adventure and to make better use of all that the region has to offer outdoor enthusiasts. Win is a successful and smart business man, he isn't going to let this opportunity slip by. The adventures and off sites are probably the best marketing the mountain can get IMHO. Skiers talking up the mountain and the adventures. When my Stowe friend (for example) hears about the Bush Pilots hitting "hidden" trails at Stowe like Pipeline, waterfall, and the back woods to Smuggs, he'll go nuts that we were ripping in his back yard. He'll start asking about coming to ski with us. Or meeting up with us at another off site. That is the moment these programs take off! But they must start somewhere, and this is the year to do it! Sign up and bring Hawk! I need some competition in the bumps!

Your son is doing great. He'll probably be out-skiing me this year. Can you not get his skis tuned all season so I can keep up, keep up, keep up!

Lostone
10-20-2009, 07:47 PM
Not getting much involved with the ski school stuff, as I don't have a lot of knowledge. But reading the Bush Pilots stuff, I was thinking I'd read something on it, somewhere.

Turns out it was here! (http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=2048)

vonski
10-20-2009, 07:54 PM
I echo the Howie's last comments: my kids were both unhappy with their Blazer experience last year. They were disappointed about the reduced tree skiing, they too went to CR far less than the year before and my older one especially got stuck doing terrain park stuff far more than she cared to, missing out on skiing CR and trees on some of the really good snow days. My younger one did a lot of what I'd call ski school stuff (drills, follow the instructor, etc.) instead of just skiing, and did not ski as many challenging runs as she did the previous year. It was more like Blazers than Adventure Blazers.

I am not sure why I might think this, but If I wanted my son to be a great technical skier and stay on trails then I thought that is what GMVS was for. Skiing at Ellen I see those groups a lot and it is from what I have seen more follow the leader and emphasis on technique. I am of the mantra of ski it with or without grace and have fun doing so. I know if my son had been in a group where he had to follow the leader those two years there is no way he was going to want to do Blazers. He did learn to ski well and have fun in the Blazer program that is for sure. Like I said he can go anywhere at this point and that is because of the knowledge he gained from Blazers.

007
10-20-2009, 09:49 PM
What are all these RUMORS of program restriction? The only restriction should be "conditions". The coaches check in with Patrol for enlightenment, observations, and “conditions” prior to taking anyone into the lift-served side-country, and yes sometimes it isn't advisable, and sometimes it’s downright dangerous and off limits.

Considering the on and off-piste "woods" could only be open maybe 10? weekends out of the ALC Program Dates, and out of those 10 maybe 2-3? might be a little less than safe for sanctioned program skiing and riding in there. So what are you left with; 7 Saturdays and Sundays of fresh Champlain Powder? One could only wish the weather timing was that good..............

Yeah, all the ALC coaches, team members, and maybe even Win, wish the ALC programs were off-piste for the ALC program duration from beginning to end, for a host of reasons all good, but old man winter and mother nature have their fights, we're "forced" to ski on the "trails"........, and everyone ends up getting their collective panties in a bunch claiming that there were too many "restrictions" . It's called good judgment on the ski area's part for ensuring everyone’s safety, including the safety of the patrollers sent out to rescue the misfortunate among us.... Yeah you, the passholder skiing alone and far from any help at 4:00 pm on a Saturday afternoon on a "secret stash" called "dumb ass" just south of "wtf are you doing out there alone", and all the while you are thinking "I got a cell phone, and know where I'm goin'...”.

ALC “is what it is”, the finest adventure ski program this side of the Mississippi. Quit b*tchin about rumored "restrictions", the weather we haven’t yet learned to control, the PSIA coaches bickering with the ALC mentors, the dispelled rumors, and just enjoy the ride that many people would trade places for in a crack induced New York second, if they knew about it. BPs off-site excursions will hold true to Sugarbush's ALC Program breaking through old barriers, and blazing new trails in uncharted territory this season, as was promised.

Ok 'nuf said, I am going back to dream-in of ski-in at Sugarbush with all of you as soon as possible, on and OFF the trails! And would someone PUL-EEZE post a few more photos like GoneSkiing has. Those were a GREAT example of the program’s success.

gone.skiing
10-21-2009, 08:05 AM
007, I got your Champlain powder right here...

http://vimeo.com/3465159

Seriously man, pass the pipe or coolaid bottle... I want some of that...

Please don't throw the old "quit your bitching and go skiing" line at me, I am already doing that. When you have a number of parents who observed the same difference between last couple of seasons, you can't just brush it off.

Both seasons I was with Bush Pilots, we talked about doing these off-sites. It has not happened yet, maybe it will this year. Last year Bush Pilots had their free cat skiing day on last day of the season, when everything was frozen solid. Meanwhile, cat was going up with 1/2 dozen empty seats on best day of the season.

I guess my point is that if we all put rosy goggles on and wait for someone else to make things happen, they just might not...

007
10-21-2009, 08:58 AM
007, I got your Champlain powder right here...

http://vimeo.com/3465159



Niiiiiiiiiice... That person in front of you really rips! Seen glimpses of him flying past once in a while. : )
I'll share my cocktail - "Iced Russian" (shaken not stirred); rosy or foggy goggles not required...
How many more days of this madness until we open???

RedneckMutha
10-21-2009, 03:39 PM
Roses be red and violets be black.....................most posters here..........they don't know JACK!

Cept fur the Britt/Scotich dude 007. HE GOT IT ALL TOGETHER 150%. Red Neck Mutha

barkbiter
10-21-2009, 06:35 PM
It's all McSquinty's fault.

Tin Woodsman
10-21-2009, 07:11 PM
What are all these RUMORS of program restriction? The only restriction should be "conditions". The coaches check in with Patrol for enlightenment, observations, and “conditions” prior to taking anyone into the lift-served side-country, and yes sometimes it isn't advisable, and sometimes it’s downright dangerous and off limits.

Considering the on and off-piste "woods" could only be open maybe 10? weekends out of the ALC Program Dates, and out of those 10 maybe 2-3? might be a little less than safe for sanctioned program skiing and riding in there. So what are you left with; 7 Saturdays and Sundays of fresh Champlain Powder? One could only wish the weather timing was that good..............

Yeah, all the ALC coaches, team members, and maybe even Win, wish the ALC programs were off-piste for the ALC program duration from beginning to end, for a host of reasons all good, but old man winter and mother nature have their fights, we're "forced" to ski on the "trails"........, and everyone ends up getting their collective panties in a bunch claiming that there were too many "restrictions" . It's called good judgment on the ski area's part for ensuring everyone’s safety, including the safety of the patrollers sent out to rescue the misfortunate among us.... Yeah you, the passholder skiing alone and far from any help at 4:00 pm on a Saturday afternoon on a "secret stash" called "dumb ass" just south of "wtf are you doing out there alone", and all the while you are thinking "I got a cell phone, and know where I'm goin'...”.

ALC “is what it is”, the finest adventure ski program this side of the Mississippi. Quit b*tchin about rumored "restrictions", the weather we haven’t yet learned to control, the PSIA coaches bickering with the ALC mentors, the dispelled rumors, and just enjoy the ride that many people would trade places for in a crack induced New York second, if they knew about it. BPs off-site excursions will hold true to Sugarbush's ALC Program breaking through old barriers, and blazing new trails in uncharted territory this season, as was promised.

Ok 'nuf said, I am going back to dream-in of ski-in at Sugarbush with all of you as soon as possible, on and OFF the trails! And would someone PUL-EEZE post a few more photos like GoneSkiing has. Those were a GREAT example of the program’s success.

Why would you classify the posts preceding yours as "rumors". These are observations based upon multiple seasons of skiing. If these parents noticed it b/c their kids were unhappy, then there's something there, no? This "quit yer bitchin" mantra is incredibly unhelpful, most of all for Sugarbush itself. If criticisms from core customers are stifled or ignored, then Win and Co aren't getting the feedback they need to adjust their policies. You are doing them a disservice with your seemingly uninformed and off-topic rants - what the heck does some idiot skiing OB unprepared on his own have to do with kids being bummed that Adventure Blazers is watered down form previous years?

007
10-21-2009, 09:00 PM
McQuinty sounds like the captain in Jaws. Bill McGinty is the Director of our ski and ride school. We obviously have guidelines for our adventure and mountain blazers programs since we are responsbile for the safety of the children in the programs. This is not new. If anyone wants to contact me directly, my email is wsmith@sugarbush.com and my phone is 802-583-6832. We didn't create more wooded trail this year to keep people only on groomed trails.

T-Wood-

I didn't mean to pee in your Cheerios! Win stated it best and to the point; he also offered his email address and telephone number, and they always have been provided for anyone who wishes to offer constructive criticism and suggestion, in addition to the wheat he can separate from the chaff on this site.

The two points made in my "rant" as you so kindly put it, were:

a. A lot of the "off the map" woods are only open for 1/2 the program season at best, sometimes less, and even then some areas are to sketchy to enter with a "group" mid morning; hense Win & Co.'s grand plan to open more manageable woods ON the map.....brilliant.

b. Access to skiing off-trail areas by groups of program participants and coaches are wholly contingent upon safety and ski conditions, period, and that's something that will never be changed.

If [McSquinty] McGinty has a grand plan to either dumb down the Adventure Blazer Program or enrich it, someone should get the facts from him and post them; he should be accessible to all of the Blazer parents and the truth be known.

Forgive me if I didn't stay within your guardrails for the entire prior post, although the train of thought was related to safety in the woods.

Now run along and go play outside with Lion, Scarecrow, Dorothy, and Toto. ; )

007

HowieT2
10-22-2009, 07:16 AM
McQuinty sounds like the captain in Jaws. Bill McGinty is the Director of our ski and ride school. We obviously have guidelines for our adventure and mountain blazers programs since we are responsbile for the safety of the children in the programs. This is not new. If anyone wants to contact me directly, my email is wsmith@sugarbush.com and my phone is 802-583-6832. We didn't create more wooded trail this year to keep people only on groomed trails.

T-Wood-

I didn't mean to pee in your Cheerios! Win stated it best and to the point; he also offered his email address and telephone number, and they always have been provided for anyone who wishes to offer constructive criticism and suggestion, in addition to the wheat he can separate from the chaff on this site.

The two points made in my "rant" as you so kindly put it, were:

a. A lot of the "off the map" woods are only open for 1/2 the program season at best, sometimes less, and even then some areas are to sketchy to enter with a "group" mid morning; hense Win & Co.'s grand plan to open more manageable woods ON the map.....brilliant.

b. Access to skiing off-trail areas by groups of program participants and coaches are wholly contingent upon safety and ski conditions, period, and that's something that will never be changed.

If [McSquinty] McGinty has a grand plan to either dumb down the Adventure Blazer Program or enrich it, someone should get the facts from him and post them; he should be accessible to all of the Blazer parents and the truth be known.

Forgive me if I didn't stay within your guardrails for the entire prior post, although the train of thought was related to safety in the woods.

Now run along and go play outside with Lion, Scarecrow, Dorothy, and Toto. ; )

007

In response to b. above, I think you're are missing the whole point of what appears to have happened last season. While it may have been true in prior years, access to skiing off trail areas apparently was not contingent on the conditions being conducive, but on the availability of personnel to meet the safety requirements. I don't think anyone would complain if they keep the kids on the groomers when the woods are in bad shape. It's when they are in fine shape, but they are not going in because they don't have 2 coaches and a patroler or whatever is mandated, that we have an issue with. And again, I agree there should be a minimum of 2 coaches when a group of 8 kids is taken out of bounds. But then you have to have the personnel especially for adventure blazers which costs $200/kid more than regular blazers. Don't sell an "adventure" program at a premium, and then stick the kids with 1 coach (as was the case with my son's group last season) and say sorry, no adventure for you, we need another coach.

and don't tell us not to rant on this board. that is what it is for. and frankly, given the sentiment expressed herein by a number of blazer parents, McSquinty should post a response himself. What would we say to Win, John or McSquinty that hasn't already been said here. It's not like he's out skiing now.

Lostone
10-22-2009, 07:53 AM
McSquinty should post a response himself.

Don't know if the Butchering of his name is intentional, in this case, as it was in the first, but if you try to insult someone, it is unlikely they'll care in the least about responding to you.

ski_resort_observer
10-22-2009, 07:54 AM
and frankly, given the sentiment expressed herein by a number of blazer parents, McSquinty should post a response himself. What would we say to Win, John or McSquinty that hasn't already been said here. It's not like he's out skiing now.

So, by insulting the Sugarbush Ski/Ride School Director on a public forum that is totally independent of the resort you think that helps clear up this issue?

HowieT2
10-22-2009, 08:14 AM
and frankly, given the sentiment expressed herein by a number of blazer parents, McSquinty should post a response himself. What would we say to Win, John or McSquinty that hasn't already been said here. It's not like he's out skiing now.

So, by insulting the Sugarbush Ski/Ride School Director on a public forum that is totally independent of the resort you think that helps clear up this issue?

oh relax. It's just a joke.

barkbiter
10-22-2009, 08:31 AM
My friends at Deer Valley told me his name was Phil McSquinty before he got fired for watering down the kids programs. Has he changed his name ?

007
10-22-2009, 09:34 AM
HT2 - Thanks for the compass.

Dear Mr. McGinty-

Kindly provide your assurances as Director that the minimum ratio of coaches to participants will be assigned and provided each and every time the groups are scheduled to ski on the terrain and areas as promised (the entire program); and further, guarantee the opportunity for “Adventure” in the Adventure Blazer Program as advertised, and not restrict this by staff availability alone.

The momentum of success for this program may presently hang in the balance....

Tin Woodsman
10-22-2009, 12:18 PM
McQuinty sounds like the captain in Jaws. Bill McGinty is the Director of our ski and ride school. We obviously have guidelines for our adventure and mountain blazers programs since we are responsbile for the safety of the children in the programs. This is not new. If anyone wants to contact me directly, my email is wsmith@sugarbush.com and my phone is 802-583-6832. We didn't create more wooded trail this year to keep people only on groomed trails.

T-Wood-

I didn't mean to pee in your Cheerios! Win stated it best and to the point; he also offered his email address and telephone number, and they always have been provided for anyone who wishes to offer constructive criticism and suggestion, in addition to the wheat he can separate from the chaff on this site.

The two points made in my "rant" as you so kindly put it, were:

a. A lot of the "off the map" woods are only open for 1/2 the program season at best, sometimes less, and even then some areas are to sketchy to enter with a "group" mid morning; hense Win & Co.'s grand plan to open more manageable woods ON the map.....brilliant.

b. Access to skiing off-trail areas by groups of program participants and coaches are wholly contingent upon safety and ski conditions, period, and that's something that will never be changed.

If [McSquinty] McGinty has a grand plan to either dumb down the Adventure Blazer Program or enrich it, someone should get the facts from him and post them; he should be accessible to all of the Blazer parents and the truth be known.

007
Does it not seem reasonable to conclude that procedures which had previously been followed on a best efforts basis were formalized and hardened upon the arrival of a new sherriff? The new big cheese always like to put his or her stamp on things in any organization. If staffing didn't materially change, then the frequency of woods adventures would surely decrease, as evidenced by the multiple testimonies to that fact in this thread. There needn't be a formal policy change, let alone a grand plan, to generate this negative outcome. In a world in which adding to the staffing of the program directly impacts its economics, it shouldn't be surprising that the result is less frequent woods/CR exploration for the Adventure Blazers.

gratefulskier
10-22-2009, 01:47 PM
I've been a Blazer coach for the past 7 years and I'm planning on doing it again this year.

As far as I know, there was no requirement for a 3rd coach last year. There are defined zones and policies for the zones, but they did not significantly change last year.

There are certain areas that I don't like to take my group, particularly dense stuff where it's easy to get separated or paths lead in divergent directions.

But, at no time last year was I restricted by my supervisors in comparison to previous seasons.

I carry a radio, a cell phone, a first aid kit, small amounts of food and water, and when it's required or otherwise prudent, I go with a second coach. It's pretty easy to meet up with a second coach to get into the trees, in my opinion. And, we did it all the time last year.

My group is not an official Adventure Blazer group, or at least they haven't been in the past. But, they enjoy being off-trail and we use that terrain as appropriate, taking weather, snow conditions, group dynamics, time of day and weekend, etc., into account.

It's very rare that you'll find me in tough trees with Blazers on a Sunday afternoon, because the kids are often getting tired.

Safety always comes first, but fun comes second, and there's a lot of fun to be had in the trees.


GS

007
10-22-2009, 05:17 PM
Don't sell an "adventure" program at a premium, and then stick the kids with 1 coach (as was the case with my son's group last season) and say sorry, no adventure for you, we need another coach.


Can you let us know how many times this happened last season? Not to be antagonastic, just trying to get a clearer picture here......

rfm
10-22-2009, 05:41 PM
I've had kids in Blazers and Adventure Blazers for the past few year. I have to say that I didn't notice a difference in the amount trips to CR or woods off of HG or North Lynx. Everytime I'd ask where they'd skied that day there'd be a bunch of names thrown at me that I hadn't heard before which wouldn't matter because I couldn't ski them anyway.

If you watched the Blazer DVD issued last year I'm sure you'd recognize many of the locations that were visited by Blazer Groups.

I also seem to remember last year the annual discussion concerning shuttle bus preference to Blazer groups along German Flats on this board.

Imho the problem is group make-up. I have noticed most years a difference in skiing ability within the groups. Then the group needs to ski towards the weakest link.

castlerock
10-23-2009, 09:06 AM
Grateful and RFM have the only two posts that reflect my understanding and obserations of the Blazer program for the past seven years. My three kids spent a couple of years in them, I have several close friends that are coaches, and I run into them all the time in the woods.

It seems that this thread has gone from a complaint that someone's group wasn't aggressive enough and developed into a theory that the mountain was quashing adventure skiing. As stated before in this thread. The groups are only as aggressive as their weakest link. And just a side note, I have to say I have seen a correlation between problem kids and whiny parents.

HowieT2
10-23-2009, 09:22 AM
I'm thoroughly confused now. Thanks for the input GS and RFM. As stated in my earlier post, I had initially attributed the issues my daughter had last year to her particular group, until I read the complaints on this thread. I guess we'll see how it goes this season.

Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

gratefulskier
10-23-2009, 09:57 AM
If you children are having problems with their groups and are unhappy, please let us know. I have played a major role in the initial group assignments and then facilitating in-season swaps the past few years. I hate to hear halfway through the season that someone is unhappy with their group or instructor, because it can be tougher on the child and another group to make a late switch.

We don't get everything perfect on the first day or even the first weekend. We need to spend time watching the kids ski and watching how they interact with each other. Plus, many students don't show up until Christmas week. So, there will always be in-season adjustments.

But please let us know when there is a problem. I'm one of the people you are likely to talk to if you have a problem, and I try very hard to fix those problems. I've even been helping some parents this off-season by suggesting coaches for them to request when they sign up.

My own children have been Blazers for years and my son is now an instructor. My daughter skis in my group. So, I know the importance of creating a situation that makes the children want to go to the mountain. My daughter is in my group now because she loves the other kids in the group. It's the social aspect of the skiing that makes her want to go to the mountain. For other kids, it's all about the turns and the gnarly terrain. And for some others, it's all about cruising and having fun on groomed terrain.

We do everything we can to keep all of them happy, but we can't fix things we don't know about.


GS

gone.skiing
10-23-2009, 10:20 AM
Nice one, castlerock. About time you straightened us out... Do you need to use supplemental oxygen on that high horse? You got your opinion, I got mine. Neither one is right or wrong, they just are. Why don't we respectfully post them here and let the chips fall where they may... At the end of the day Win is going to make up his own mind, we are just trying to voice some concerns. I do not think this thread is any better or worse than "slipper stairs", "small changing room", "insufficient snowmaking", etc. threads. At least this one has some skiing pictures in it.

007, you keep pounding on statistics... My son's group skied Church/Bear Claw/Saddle exactly 0 times last year. How many times did any blazer group ski those areas last year? Are you saying that there was not a single day on a weekend last year when those runs were in good enough shape to take upper level groups through?

gratefulskier
10-23-2009, 10:33 AM
My group skied Bear Claw last year and a lot of other places that I won't name here.

GS

barkbiter
10-23-2009, 10:33 AM
Back to the original post. What's up with a telemark skier from Stowe running the alpine ski school ? I thought John Egan was the man ? A quick search online.......................

Telemark Clinic for beginners and intermediate skiers at Stowe Mountain Resort with top-rated PSIA Telemark instructor Mickey Stone.

and another search..........

John Egan, rated as one of the top 50 skiers on the continent by Powder Magazine, has skied down peaks that others thought were unskiable, accumulating dozens of first descents. One of the original members of the North Face Extreme Team he is recognized around the world as a pioneer of Extreme Sports. John was inducted into the Vermont ski Hall of Fame in Oct. 2003, located in Stowe VT. Along with his brother Dan, he has covered the globe with his skiing talent and is one of the original Warren Miller" poster boys ", staring in some of Warren's original movies. John Egan is available for private groups or individuals at his home in Sugarbush, VT.

Hmmmmm, who do I want in charge of the ski school?

It's well known that Egan is the reason a lot of people come to ski here. A lot.

castlerock
10-23-2009, 10:48 AM
... Do you need to use supplemental oxygen on that high horse? You got your opinion, I got mine. Neither one is right or wrong,

No oxygen needed, I'm fully acclimatized. As for the opinions, mine is worth what you paid for it. I'm just sharing observations. My friends (the aforementioned coaches), and my experience as a blazer parent, tell me that the quality of the day is directly related to the attitude of the slowest kid. In addition groups have tended to stick together over the years even as kids have diverged in abilities. The coaches I know would prefer an LT excursion over virtually any trail. But they also ask for input from the kids, hence the comment about the weakest link.

Yard Sale
10-23-2009, 10:53 AM
I have three kids in the Blazer program not Adventure Blazers so I can't speak AB. I have to say the logic behind RFM's post is sound. A group can only be as adventurous as the weakest skier. Grateful Skier's post is consistent with my kid's Blazer experience in that if there is a problem the Blazer team is cooperative and eager to take strides to correct it. They do a very good job overall at a very challenging venture with an immense responsiblity, our childeren. When I have had issues, I brought them up and John Atkinson was very responsive.

The two coach policy as I have experienced it, was only for Slidebrook. To me it makes sense. I've skiied with the different groups, and as far as I can tell they are hitting the inbounds trees without hesitation, as evidenced by my 5 yr old insisting on a last run through Eden every weekend. (I know it's only Eden, but she is just 5)

Is the program perfect? No. Is it for everyone? Certainly not. But it's a very good program on the finest terrain in the east. I'm not gonna sweat it. When the last guy (JA)took over the programs, I'm sure there were doubters and whispers about him too, and he turned out to be a pretty good find. No?

Not that Gone.Skiing doesn't have a point, and not that I don't enjoy even the more ridiculous incendiary rantings posted. I especially like the ranter on ranter crime. I don't know this guy McGinty, but I'm willing to wait, but I have faith in Win and the mountain. There is a track record of good descisions backed up by a demonstrated ability and desire to make meaningful changes midstream when necessary.

So, go on rant if you must. Me? I'm just gonna keep on sipping on my Kool Aid, maybe even add a little Grey Goose, wait and see.

gratefulskier
10-23-2009, 10:54 AM
Bill McGinty runs the ski school. Mickey is coming to Sugarbush to run the seasonal programs.

Mickey is an amazing skier. He's an amazing teacher. And, he is passionate about snow sports. I've seen him leading clinics at PSIA events in the past and his groups always have a great time. Always.

I think that if people can reserve their judgment until they meet Mickey, they will be pleasantly surprised. John Atkinson has provided us with passion in prior years. Mickey will continue to do that this year.

This conversation is now starting to drive me crazy. I got new boots yesterday. My skis are in the shop getting the bindings checked and getting their first tune of the year. I'm ready to go and November 21 is still a long way away.


GS

daevious
10-23-2009, 12:01 PM
I don't usually get involved in the discussions here, but somebody asked what I think.

I did not coach a Blazer group last season, but I was involved with the program as a trainer and I was a Blazer and Adventure Blazer coach for the previous six seasons.

I think that many (if not most) of the "facts" under discussion are opinions, assumptions, guesses, "I heard"s and "it seems reasonable to me"s. Conclusions reached can be no more valid than the information on which they are based. I'm just sayin'.

I do not recall any major changes to the off-piste guidelines last season, beyond some refinement of the zones.

I think that if the Blazers weren't in the woods as much last season as the year before, it is because conditions didn't warrant it.

I believe that kids need time to develop their skills on-piste, in good conditions, so they don't fall back on and further develop undesirable, defensive skills and tactics when they are challenged by the terrain and obstacles off-piste. This is not a new idea (and it applies to grown-ups, too).

Let it snow!

Hawk
10-23-2009, 12:07 PM
Excellent. Thank you Daevious. :wink:

castlerock
10-23-2009, 12:11 PM
I think that if the Blazers weren't in the woods as much last season as the year before, it is because conditions didn't warrant it.

I was going to mention a bit of that in my earlier post. It wasn't until Feb 21-22 that we got enough cover in the woods for reasonably covered conditions. That weekend and the weekend after were the best snows of the year (meaning something fell on top of a base). The last weekend of Blazers was probably March21st? No?

HowieT2
10-23-2009, 12:42 PM
I think that if the Blazers weren't in the woods as much last season as the year before, it is because conditions didn't warrant it.

I was going to mention a bit of that in my earlier post. It wasn't until Feb 21-22 that we got enough cover in the woods for reasonably covered conditions. That weekend and the weekend after were the best snows of the year (meaning something fell on top of a base). The last weekend of Blazers was probably March21st? No?

I spoke to my son about this last night and he agreed that the conditions on the weekends weren't great for most of the season. If you recall, we got a great stretch of snow starting the thursday of presidents week, but before the following weekend we got rained on. Then we didn't get any snow in March.

Jacgue le guide
10-25-2009, 11:29 AM
For the past 5 years I have had 3 kids in the Blazers. Last year was defintetly restricted compared to previous years.
The conditions overall were no better or worse. I was told by coaches that this was due to new upper management
policies. Shouldn`t parents be made aware of these new restrictions, before money is spent and the season has started?
Many of the parents are not happy about this and are considering pulling their kids this year. Will there be some clarification
of these issues by management or will they just take our money and change the rules as they go?

castlerock
10-25-2009, 06:22 PM
Listen Jaque Strappe, First, which coaches, two Blazer coaches have told you the opposite of your assertion. Trust me, they aren't "in league" with the mountain either, as their incentives to coach have been dwindling every year. On top of that you have forgotten about the weather. No better, no worse? Rremember Dec Snow, Holiday Rain, Feb Snow immediately followed by rain. Then bubkus in March.....You sound like a Fox news spokesmodel making stuff up as you go along!

HowieT2
10-25-2009, 06:43 PM
For the past 5 years I have had 3 kids in the Blazers. Last year was defintetly restricted compared to previous years.
The conditions overall were no better or worse. I was told by coaches that this was due to new upper management
policies. Shouldn`t parents be made aware of these new restrictions, before money is spent and the season has started?
Many of the parents are not happy about this and are considering pulling their kids this year. Will there be some clarification
of these issues by management or will they just take our money and change the rules as they go?

is Jacque actually barkbiter's nom deguere?

barkbiter
10-25-2009, 07:28 PM
For the past 5 years I have had 3 kids in the Blazers. Last year was defintetly restricted compared to previous years.
The conditions overall were no better or worse. I was told by coaches that this was due to new upper management
policies. Shouldn`t parents be made aware of these new restrictions, before money is spent and the season has started?
Many of the parents are not happy about this and are considering pulling their kids this year. Will there be some clarification
of these issues by management or will they just take our money and change the rules as they go?

is Jacque actually barkbiter's nom deguere?


Au contraire Howie, just ask the moderators, all attempts at another screen name from my computer have been censored, as they should be. Jacgue is his own man. How dare you accuse me of such poor spelling.

And CastleCrotch, nice stem christie. Try facing down the hill next time, it's not that scary. Perhaps you should try the Adventure Blazers.

HowieT2
10-25-2009, 07:33 PM
For the past 5 years I have had 3 kids in the Blazers. Last year was defintetly restricted compared to previous years.
The conditions overall were no better or worse. I was told by coaches that this was due to new upper management
policies. Shouldn`t parents be made aware of these new restrictions, before money is spent and the season has started?
Many of the parents are not happy about this and are considering pulling their kids this year. Will there be some clarification
of these issues by management or will they just take our money and change the rules as they go?

is Jacque actually barkbiter's nom deguere?


Au contraire Howie, just ask the moderators, all attempts at another screen name from my computer have been censored, as they should be. Jacgue is his own man. How dare you accuse me of such poor spelling.

And CastleCrotch, nice stem christie. Try facing down the hill next time, it's not that scary. Perhaps you should try the Adventure Blazers.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too tough to get around any attempted restrictions.
shouldn't be too hard to figure out if there is anyone who has 3 kids in blazers 5 year running. just saying

barkbiter
10-25-2009, 07:40 PM
Just proves you don't have to be too bright to be a trial lawyer.

HowieT2
10-25-2009, 07:47 PM
Just proves you don't have to be too bright to be a trial lawyer.

You been hitting the bark a little early today?

castlerock
10-25-2009, 08:07 PM
And CastleCrotch, nice stem christie. Try facing down the hill next time, it's not that scary. Perhaps you should try the Adventure Blazers.

Old school jump turns, I was too wuss to flush it new school style, I also believe in delayed gratification and after climbing from Fabyan's to get there I wanted to make it last. As for turn quality, I just hope I can stem this year.

As for the coaching, I couldn't afford Adventure Blazers....I had to give up when the prices jumped a couple of years ago.

As for the alias, new modem maybe?

Jacgue le guide
10-25-2009, 08:07 PM
[quote=Jacgue le guide]For the past 5 years I have had 3 kids in the Blazers. Last year was defintetly restricted compared to previous years.
The conditions overall were no better or worse. I was told by coaches that this was due to new upper management
policies. Shouldn`t parents be made aware of these new restrictions, before money is spent and the season has started?
Many of the parents are not happy about this and are considering pulling their kids this year. Will there be some clarification
of these issues by management or will they just take our money and change the rules as they go?

is Jacque actually barkbiter's nom deguere?


Au contraire Howie, just ask the moderators, all attempts at another screen name from my computer have been censored, as they should be. Jacgue is his own man. How dare you accuse me of such poor spelling.

And CastleCrotch, nice stem christie. Try facing down the hill next time, it's not that scary. Perhaps you should try the Adventure Blazers.[/
I heard he carries an extra skirt in his backpack.

Lostone
10-25-2009, 08:09 PM
Moderator note:

Please stay to the subject and avoid personal attacks. If you want to to play with each other that way, please take it to PMs or emails.

vonski
10-25-2009, 09:26 PM
My local source told me that Mickey rocks the woods. So, let it snow and we can all enjoy the new woods and the unforementioned ones.

gratefulskier
10-26-2009, 08:11 AM
From personal observations, I can tell you that Mickey can flat out ski - anywhere, any conditions. And, he's always smiling when he's skiing.


GS

Hawk
10-26-2009, 09:13 AM
There is obviously a large difference of opinion on here. I would say that Gone-Skiing and several others think that the basic operation of the adventure programs is changing to a more conservative approach. They see the personnel changes as moving in a bad direction from the current. Others think that weather played a large part in the diminished "adventure" part of the programs last year and most think that it hasn't changed that much at all. The “hasn't changed that much at all group” is largely made up of instructors and ski school parents.

As stated before I do not have a stake in this because I have not participated in any programs and do not have kids. I do however have dozens of friends involved with programs and even more work in the ski and ride programs. I think this is a classic case of the highest level skiers wanting the ability to push the envelope or in this case they don't want to have that right dumbed down. I strongly agree that this ability to push the envelope should not be taken away from anybody that chooses it. It promotes the growth of gifted skiers to the next level.

But the name calling and utter disrespect to management is out of line. It only stirs up bad feelings and works as a detriment to your cause.

Gone Skiing I am with you dude. If it turns out that they are actually going to change things I will stand beside you. I am not thoroughly convinced of this yet. But in case they are not you should ask your friend Barkbiter to tone it down. He is only doing you guys a disservice.

muddy_hollow
10-26-2009, 09:29 AM
I have a kid in blazers and thought the program last year, and the year before, was working just fine. Kid skis great. I guess if I wanted more out of my child in the woods, I'd teach her myself and in fact I ski with my kid.


Strikes me the people complaining about the program are of the same cut of cloth as the parents on the side line yelling at the coaches for not playing their kid enough. Type A, got more money than sense.....

Blazer coaches don't get paid enough to have to listen to parents complain that their kids isn't skiing hard enough......

Six pages of nothing used on the forums..... Is it snowing yet?

castlerock
10-26-2009, 10:21 AM
Strikes me the people complaining about the program are of the same cut of cloth as the parents on the side line yelling at the coaches for not playing their kid enough. Type A, got more money than sense.....

Blazer coaches don't get paid enough to have to listen to parents complain that their kids isn't skiing hard enough......

My Johnny doesn't ski hard enough! could it because Johnny isn't motivated or disciplined? Maybe the reason Johnny's group didn't ski the saddle this afternoon is the first run after lunch Johnny didn't listen to the coaches directions and skied right past the Heaven's gate lift, forcing the entire class back to the base, Then Johnny said, I don't want to go up Bravo, I want to ski sleeper! So they went up Gatehouse. Then Johnny was cold and the group had to go in.

I'm not a Blazer apologist, in fact my seven year old never made it through her first season (It might have has something to do with a different coach every week, an exception to the rule BTW), but my 11 and 13 year-olds had a great couple of years, exceptional inspiring coaches, and I spent many runs with their groups. (extra adult on HG chair, sweep in the woods etc.) But for the past two seasons It wasn't worth it. Why was I paying to have someone ski with my kids, when I was doing it anyway? They weren't getting to any terrain in Blazers they weren't getting with me. They don't slow me down, I might be slowing them down soon.

Hawk
10-26-2009, 10:31 AM
Strikes me the people complaining about the program are of the same cut of cloth as the parents on the side line yelling at the coaches for not playing their kid enough. Type A, got more money than sense.....

Blazer coaches don't get paid enough to have to listen to parents complain that their kids isn't skiing hard enough......

My Johnny doesn't ski hard enough! could it because Johnny isn't motivated or disciplined? Maybe the reason Johnny's group didn't ski the saddle this afternoon is the first run after lunch Johnny didn't listen to the coaches directions and skied right past the Heaven's gate lift, forcing the entire class back to the base, Then Johnny said, I don't want to go up Bravo, I want to ski sleeper! So they went up Gatehouse. Then Johnny was cold and the group had to go in.

I'm not a Blazer apologist, in fact my seven year old never made it through her first season (It might have has something to do with a different coach every week, an exception to the rule BTW), but my 11 and 13 year-olds had a great couple of years, exceptional inspiring coaches, and I spent many runs with their groups. (extra adult on HG chair, sweep in the woods etc.) But for the past two seasons It wasn't worth it. Why was I paying to have someone ski with my kids, when I was doing it anyway? They weren't getting to any terrain in Blazers they weren't getting with me. They don't slow me down, I might be slowing them down soon.

Yup, gettin old sucks Castlerock. Try this. My friend says to his kid, " I waited for you for 12 years! Now your going to wait for me!!!!" :wink:

muddy_hollow
10-26-2009, 11:00 AM
Strikes me the people complaining about the program are of the same cut of cloth as the parents on the side line yelling at the coaches for not playing their kid enough. Type A, got more money than sense.....

Blazer coaches don't get paid enough to have to listen to parents complain that their kids isn't skiing hard enough......

My Johnny doesn't ski hard enough! could it because Johnny isn't motivated or disciplined? Maybe the reason Johnny's group didn't ski the saddle this afternoon is the first run after lunch Johnny didn't listen to the coaches directions and skied right past the Heaven's gate lift, forcing the entire class back to the base, Then Johnny said, I don't want to go up Bravo, I want to ski sleeper! So they went up Gatehouse. Then Johnny was cold and the group had to go in.

I'm not a Blazer apologist, in fact my seven year old never made it through her first season (It might have has something to do with a different coach every week, an exception to the rule BTW), but my 11 and 13 year-olds had a great couple of years, exceptional inspiring coaches, and I spent many runs with their groups. (extra adult on HG chair, sweep in the woods etc.) But for the past two seasons It wasn't worth it. Why was I paying to have someone ski with my kids, when I was doing it anyway? They weren't getting to any terrain in Blazers they weren't getting with me. They don't slow me down, I might be slowing them down soon.


There's always one. We had a kid last year that the old-man clearly was dumping him off into the class so he could ski with his oldest boy. Drop the kid off and run for the lifts. The kid was clearly in the same rank as "Johnny" except like to hit the girls in the face with his ski pole. Nice kid, should be take down lift line ;)

In your second paragraph you touch on a good point, there is a limit to what blazers can do for kids. Once they hit a certain leve, you either pay the bucks for the adventure blazers or start screaming at your kids to wait up.

Maybe the program has changed, but I think it's great. If you're of the opposite opinion, ski with your kids. They'll love you more, there's nothing better.

gone.skiing
10-26-2009, 11:03 AM
Muddy hollow,
nice generalization. At least man up and address "those parents" by their screen names. There were a few of us in this thread, are you talking about anyone in particular? You think that programs work great as is, good for you. If you think you can coach better than adventure blazers coaches, even better. I agree there is not enough stoke on this board, so post some every once in a while to make up for our inadequacy.

Hawk,
nobody can control barkbiter and nobody wins fights against him. A lot of people have been scarred for life trying.

On a serous note your assessment is spot on. It holds true for both adults and kids programs. Different people want different things from the programs and there should be a group for them in ALC. After all some people are afraid to take their skis to Castlerock and some will skis it until the day it closes. I am sure there are a few things that can be done in upcoming season to address some of the issues brought up in this thread.

gone.skiing
10-26-2009, 11:06 AM
Maybe the program has changed, but I think it's great. If you're of the opposite opinion, ski with your kids. They'll love you more, there's nothing better.

There is always this option to tell mountain what you are looking for and see if changes can be made to make the program better.

muddy_hollow
10-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Muddy hollow,
nice generalization. At least man up and address "those parents" by their screen names. There were a few of us in this thread, are you talking about anyone in particular? You think that programs work great as is, good for you. If you think you can coach better than adventure blazers coaches, even better. I agree there is not enough stoke on this board, so post some every once in a while to make up for our inadequacy.

Hawk,
nobody can control barkbiter and nobody wins fights against him. A lot of people have been scarred for life trying.

On a serous note your assessment is spot on. It holds true for both adults and kids programs. Different people want different things from the programs and there should be a group for them in ALC. After all some people are afraid to take their skis to Castlerock and some will skis it until the day it closes. I am sure there are a few things that can be done in upcoming season to address some of the issues brought up in this thread.

Didn't say I could coach better than adventure blazers. Those guys rock, IMHO. What I was trying to convey was if you don't like blazers put the money down and move the kid to adventure blazers. It's expensive and if you cannot afford it, take the kids out yourself. I was generalizing and not calling you out, but let's face it we've all run into that "parent" or worse yet momentarily became that "parent". We're all dropping substantial cash for the program but blazers is not the be all end all of courses for kids.

Again, it's all a yawn. Can't wait to see some powder pics and video from this season on the forums.

notorious
10-26-2009, 09:17 PM
Now that all segments of the Sugarbush community have expressed themselves, from the lunatic fringe to the house cheerleaders, from the parents of "affected" programs through members of Bush Pilots (always capitalized out of respect, just kidding), from instructors, myriad non ski-school employees, former parents, Valley residents, white platers, interested observers, from opinion-makers through opinionated, from Red Neck Mutha through Skilady to Jacques le guide (n.b. spelling of Jacques, my man, who by the way is most definitely not the (thank you, Creator) childless Barkbiter by another name, and most of all from ownership, there is one abiding unifying theme that makes clarion music out of cacaphony,...that is the clear love for the special place in our hearts and minds that we all call "the Bush". If the interested reader were to re-read this thread from the beginning shout-out to the most current attempt at reasonable discourse, which re-read it I did, the one impressive consistency is the universal commitment to the "Sugarbush vision" --- "Sugarbush-The Adventure Skiing Capital of the East".

Some in our community noticed that changes are afoot which raised questions in the observer's minds, and which made them uneasy about the devotion of the Ski and Ride School administrator to the shared vision. Among the changes these observers noticed is the unknown change in duties of one of this community's most valued participants, John Atkinson, a man whose devotion to Sugarbush, and whose willingness to do any task for the benefit of the MT, is unparalled. Does anyone dispute that if John remained in his position of supervisor of seasonal programs that this thread would not have lasted beyond page one? Now we are on page seven and counting, yet the ski school administrator and the new head of Blazers,of whom I have heard nothing but good things, have done nothing to address these paying customer concerns.

Why are we talking to ourselves, when all that the loyal paying customers are asking is that managment talk to us?

Win has spoken. His committment to the vision has been clear, whether expressed on this board, in person to me, to Brewski as reported above, or to those who took him up on his offer to communicate directly with him. If ownership has spoken, then why the lingering questions?

One has to wonder why the line managers do not speak in support of the owner and customer's shared vision. Is it indicative of internal divisions in management regarding the Ski and Ride School role? My personal conversations with the administator left me with no doubt--- the man does not like Eastern tree skiing, nor fat skis, nor internet blogs. He feels 99% of Sugarbush parents do not care about ski school woods policy. Other people I know have reported identical conversations. These comments were not taken out of context. They have been repeated enough times to enough people to be accepted as his true feelings. If anyone has had conversations in which he supports the shared vision please so state. Fine by me. To each of us our own opinion. The man is fully entitled to his own opinions.

It is not opinions that matter, it is actions. The actions to date have not satisfied observant customers that he shares the vision. Many customers are willing to pay Sugarbush for cutting edge programs. We pay great people to take us and our kids to places we don't belong on our own. They teach us the skills necessary to to take it to the next level. We pay them to teach us about the great Sugarbush terrain, on and off-map, in all conditions. The resort is in the business of selling fun. The customers are trying to tell management what kinds of fun they are willing to pay for---for themselves and their kids. Do they want this money, or not? I know ownership is listening to the customers. Is management?

Gentlemen, do the right thing.

We await confirmation that program content will match customer expectations.

Lostone
10-26-2009, 09:41 PM
All should note that this board is not a part of Sugarbush Resort.

There are many who work there, who participate, but not all who work there are registered, or care to be.


If you are involved with the ALC you either have the email addresses of anyone in charge of any and all programs, or one from which you can get your email forwarded to them. They have no responsibility to address anyone here.

What is more, were it to be me being attacked here, I'd be sure not to answer.

TreeBandit
10-26-2009, 11:51 PM
My question to the group is, when the coaches and program leadership was around at the end of the season and even during the season, did you bring up these concerns that were highlighted here?

I have found that you have to question things that you do not like real time. I fully understand that decisions are made real time and unless you know what they are it is always easy to make judgement calls. When I and Muddy had concerns with our kids group we talked directly with the coach at the following week about out concerns and even after the day based on feedback we recieved from our kids. I would even talk to the coach at the start and lunch time to see how things were going and what the plans were from the day. This time allowed me to voice my opions which resulted in a good conversation and some changes.

I have also found that open direct discussions work best and then if something does not change or you are not provided a reason why they can not change then it should be escalated to the management team.

If I was a coach I know I would not try to address the items identified in this post and it would be a no win situation (it is like asking someone to bring their own rope to thier hanging). I think what would help is that the parents with concerns list what their goals are for their kids, and get thier kids to agree with these and then present them directly to the coaching team. During the season follow up with them each week to provide feedback.

barkbiter
10-27-2009, 05:17 AM
All should note that this board is not a part of Sugarbush Resort.

There are many who work there, who participate, but not all who work there are registered, or care to be.


If you are involved with the ALC you either have the email addresses of anyone in charge of any and all programs, or one from which you can get your email forwarded to them. They have no responsibility to address anyone here.

What is more, were it to be me being attacked here, I'd be sure not to answer.

Thanks again Lostone for having nothing to add.
Nothing. Ever. Funkiller.

Go Figure
10-27-2009, 07:02 AM
All should note that this board is not a part of Sugarbush Resort.

There are many who work there, who participate, but not all who work there are registered, or care to be.


If you are involved with the ALC you either have the email addresses of anyone in charge of any and all programs, or one from which you can get your email forwarded to them. They have no responsibility to address anyone here.

What is more, were it to be me being attacked here, I'd be sure not to answer.

Thanks again Lostone for having nothing to add.
Nothing. Ever. Funkiller.

Like a wet blanket, watch out or threadlock will appear.

gone.skiing
10-27-2009, 07:27 AM
TreeBandit,
tactical issues are easy to address and they do get addressed. We are not discussing basic "is my kid in the right group" type of scenario here. Some of the things we are talking about in this thread are above and beyond a casual conversation with a coach or even seasonal program supervisor.

Lostone,
would you not say that communicating with customers is an important part of job description in those positions? If the owner of the place can find time in his schedule to address our posts here why can't other folks? Believe it or not these message boards are an important communication channel and news spread on the internet faster than anywhere. Just check out places like epicski, TGR, facebook with 1000s of posters and even more readers. Why do moderators keep recommending that conversation be taken to PMs/email? What is left for the board than? Exit 5 vs 4, closed restaurants and map size discussions?

Lostone
10-27-2009, 08:12 AM
would you not say that communicating with customers is an important part of job description in those positions?

I would, but I would not say this is the best place to discuss everything. This is especially true when there are a number of hostile people attacking some of the people in those positions. Thus I reminded y'all that there are official channels for such communication.

I'm sot saying people can't discuss this or other topics here; only that people should not engage in personal attacks. I am saying that if you really want a response, you might want to speak where you know they will listen.

I think most reasonable people, reading the above posts would concur that it would be disadvantageous to respond to that hostility in such an open forum. Not everyone is reasonable.

HowieT2
10-27-2009, 08:34 AM
would you not say that communicating with customers is an important part of job description in those positions?

I would, but I would not say this is the best place to discuss everything. This is especially true when there are a number of hostile people attacking some of the people in those positions. Thus I reminded y'all that there are official channels for such communication.

I'm sot saying people can't discuss this or other topics here; only that people should not engage in personal attacks. I am saying that if you really want a response, you might want to speak where you know they will listen.

I think most reasonable people, reading the above posts would concur that it would be disadvantageous to respond to that hostility in such an open forum. Not everyone is reasonable.

What hostility? Other than the usual provocations from our favorite tree eater, there has been a frank discussion. There are divergent view points and it would be helpful for the new sheriff (or someone on his behalf) to tell us what the status is.

Lostone
10-27-2009, 08:50 AM
What hostility?

I believe a reasonable person would find a lot of it, above. I have heard that from a number of others, both on and off the board.

I do agree about the frank discussion. And I do believe that is a good aspect of the board, as is the exit 4 V 5, by the way.

HowieT2
10-27-2009, 09:07 AM
What hostility?

I believe a reasonable person would find a lot of it, above. I have heard that from a number of others, both on and off the board.

I do agree about the frank discussion. And I do believe that is a good aspect of the board, as is the exit 4 V 5, by the way.

I think your mistaking severe preseason snow/ski frustration for hostility.

TreeBandit
10-27-2009, 09:46 AM
[quote="gone.skiing"]TreeBandit,
tactical issues are easy to address and they do get addressed. We are not discussing basic "is my kid in the right group" type of scenario here. Some of the things we are talking about in this thread are above and beyond a casual conversation with a coach or even seasonal program supervisor.
quote]

I am old enough to know what the group is talking about, and I was not talking about tactical issues. But everyone seems to want a good hanging. I would have to disagree because I believe the issues could have been resolved during the ski year and not have 7 pages if complaints 12 months later were everyone only get half the story.

I had conversations each week with the coach on were they were planning on skiing and what was the goals or lessons for the day. I also asked my kid what did they do, were did they ski and did they have fun. If I received any negitive feedback from my child I talked to the coach to find out his side. Most of the time restaints on were they skied was based on how well to group listened and followed instructions.

I am not the parent that screams from the sideline or complain to others. If I do not like what a coach is doing, I make time to meet with them face to face and yes the coach and program supervisor are the place to start. Complaining to the owner of the mountain is like going to your bosses boss to claim about your peer. Again in doing so you may find out that their are reasons to why things are done or not done and if then you do not see changes you should move up the chain.

Here is a question for the group...how many of you "Tipped" the coach at the end of the year? was it a good tip? if it was then arent you sending different messages? based on some of the comments if see here if the coaches were waiters, I do not beleive you would have given them more than 5%.

Bottom line to me is that if I have issues with a program and was not getting what I expected from the program then I would drop it and pull my kid. I have also stated here that I love to ski with my kid and this is why I only have her in a 1 day program. The second day is for family time and where I get to see the positive changes in her skiing due to the coaching that she receives.

barkbiter
10-27-2009, 09:50 AM
Reasonable and frank discussions only until Mr. Conservative tosses his wet blanket.
Please, stop calling this an open forum. It is not. It's a tightly moderated, restricted access forum. Not even close to "open"
Check just about any other board, freedom is out there, but it's not here.
Even the mother site, alpinezone is open and free !
Sign up and post immediately there, not even afraid of dreaded curse words !
Here, well no. Wait a week or more to be approved, if at all, then beware the Wet Blanket !

Yard Sale
10-27-2009, 10:11 AM
I think LostOne does an admirable job. Your pillow case is made of bark.

Lostone
10-27-2009, 10:20 AM
1) I have no control over authorization to post. That is handled by Greg, who is the Admin. He is also the Admin of Alpine Zone.

For the record, we went to manual authorization because we were being bombarded by large amounts of spam and porn. Alpine Zone is a later version board, and they may have better automated ways of preventing that.

B) If you don't like the way I moderate, feel free to take that up with him, also. As I've said many times, I am not afraid of losing my high paid position.

III) Feel free to start your own open and "fun" board. I won't bother you there, as I'm just not enough "fun".
8)

gone.skiing
10-27-2009, 10:26 AM
Here is a question for the group...how many of you "Tipped" the coach at the end of the year? was it a good tip? if it was then arent you sending different messages? based on some of the comments if see here if the coaches were waiters, I do not beleive you would have given them more than 5%.

Did you even read the thread? Why complain about it being 7 pages when you clearly did not read them? We post because we care... You are clearly happy with the programs and do not see anything that needs improvement. What is your next point?

PS: Everyone gets heckled on skis or internet! Don't take this board and your moderator job so seriously, it is not like we are curing cancer here. Check out TGR for a example. Amount of garbage that gets posted is unreal, but then you find something like this:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172654

007
10-27-2009, 02:49 PM
Win sincerely promotes the adventure programs specifically and woods skiing in general, and responds to the guests both on this thread/site and privately.
Atkinson always receives acclaim for posting and responding.
Both understand the benefits of free speech.
It is easy to dispute a general misperception of opinion as rant or hostility here, and no one should read to-much-into or over-analyze a public post
~
Bill and or Mickey can only benefit by posting here on behalf of Management; we await confirmation that adventure program content will match customer expectations.

win
10-27-2009, 03:28 PM
OO7. I believe it will. Bill and Mickey will meet with all parents at the start of the season to make sure everyone understands the programs and their goals.

I think this thread is running its course, and I don't think I can add anything more. Our programs are all almost full and at a record level, so I think that says something and also means that we value them greatly.

notorious
10-27-2009, 04:50 PM
As Lyle Lovett almost says:
"To the owner let the praises be.
It's time for slidin' now,
Let's go ski."

Thanks Win.