Mountain Bike Conditions

[Jester]

I was think of coming up to mt bike this weekend. Does anyone know the trail conditions both on and off the mt. I was going to do lift service on Sat and off mt sunday. Probably Dana Hill with a bunch of friends on Sunday. Is it wet or just damp? Haven't been up to vt in over a month. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[mattlucas]

long trail was very soggy last week and the forecast is calling for lots of rain.
the rivers are also really high. I was tempted to try my hand in canoeing, people on the mad looked like they were having fun.
Of course, all that mud might be really fun to bike in too. Just watch out for downed trees, they are everywhere for some reason.

[Hawk]

I have the same agenda for Friday and Saturday. The word earlier this week was that it was wet and slick but not totally washed out. But with the recent rains the last couple of days, I think a post from Mr. Atkinson is in order. :wink:

[HowieT2]

I biked last week and it was wet/wild. friday on the mountain was fine until I was going up from the CR chair on CR connection and got hit with a nasty thunderstorm shortly before I reached the bridge. That was interesting. But the trails on the mtn were in surprisingly good shape.

[win]

Yes, our team here has done a good job on the mountain and on the golf course and the rain this year has been handled a lot better than in previous years! That said we want more days like today and what is forecasted for tomorrow!

[Go Figure]

Conditions are very wet,with most locals not riding. Thunderstorm this afternoon killed off any chance of riding tomorrow without causing considerable damage.
The x-terra race [routed through very wet trails {old and new} with no thought to conditions] should be rerouted to an alternate route according to IMBA guidelines. If this is not done it should be reported to the USFS, Vt. State Forest Dept., IMBA/VMBA as poor stewardship of local trails. Cannot trust the mountain with new woods areas if they cannot even respect the Fayston town/school trails. :wink:

[summitchallenger]

Conditions are very wet,with most locals not riding. Thunderstorm this afternoon killed off any chance of riding tomorrow without causing considerable damage.
The x-terra race [routed through very wet trails {old and new} with no thought to conditions] should be rerouted to an alternate route according to IMBA guidelines. If this is not done it should be reported to the USFS, Vt. State Forest Dept., IMBA/VMBA as poor stewardship of local trails. Cannot trust the mountain with new woods areas if they cannot even respect the Fayston town/school trails. :wink:

Maybe you should let the mountain know rather than posting it in here. They would probably appreciate knowing.

[Jester]

The mountain knows exactly how wet the trails are.

[Go Figure]

The sight of mud encased bikes and riders covered in mud to mid thigh showed a lack of concern. I know there is a mountain employee who was a VMBA board member and knows better.
http://www.imba.com/news/trail_news/14_3/itn_14_3_mud.html

[Hawk]

So the downhilling on Friday was pretty good. The trails at the mountain are not in bad shape and lots of drainage work was evident. Good work Guys! There is a definate lack of riding thou. The trails are not beaten in yet. I am sure that will come in time.

I will agree that the off mountain trails are soupy. We opted for a road ride out of Bristol instead. I have to say that area is some of the best road riding I have ever done. If you haven't gone you should. We may have saw a dozen cars in 45 miles. Just beautiful with rolling hills and corn as far as the eye can see.

I also agree that there are better ways to get your message accross about the trail abuse. Singling out people only causes bad blood.

[HowieT2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKK0z-fAhz4

[atkinson]

We were out on the Xterra trails today working and cleaning up. They came through very well, some parts looked like they always do, but other areas need some love and attention. Colin and I got one pass through on Sugar Run and Catamount and started on Guyer's. FYI, some of the persistently wet areas are persisting in their wetness, i.e. lower Guyer's, the top of Sugar Run and the bottom of the Catamount. More work to come this week.

The trails, none of which were on state or federal land, are going to continue to receive judicious amounts of help to ensure proper drainage and armoring. Some of the places we worked on have been problems for years, but now they should be much better.

The Xterra route was chosen long before this weekend and reroutes were not possible. Just so everyone is clear, the entire route was on private land with signed permission from all landowners, with the exception of the road section and the bottom of the Catamount, which is Fayston town land.

For a little perspective on wet racing, I organized one of the Wicked Witch races during the major snowmaking expansion in the mid-1990's. It rained 10" in 3 days before the event. We ran the race on the trails above Eurich Pond and I felt guilty the entire time, thinking that they would never recover. However, this was not the case. They needed some love, but in a short time, you couldn't even tell they had been running with water and knee deep in mud. People still ride these trails today, so the evidence is on the ground.

I've come full circle on the whole "don't ride when it's wet" philosophy. When I first started riding back in the 1970's and 1980's, I rode whenever and wherever. Then I started getting educated and tried being a stickler for dry trails. In the last few years, I learned that properly built trails can be ridden in the rain.

Scotland is one of the best biking areas in the world and they get massive amounts of rain. They've armored and drained their trails to the point that weather doesn't affect them that much. Guess where I learned about Scotland? At a VMBA/IMBA trail-building conference.

The Mad River Riders and the Mad River Path Association have done several hundred hours of maintenance this spring and summer already. Sugarbush has supported some of these efforts, including the work done today and a lot of the work done on the Plum Line earlier this year. Yet there is so much more to do. The project list is huge and we need lots of help. If you want trails that ride great no matter the weather, we need less bitchin and more pitch in.

John

[Jester]

If its okay to ride the trail wet. Then why do alot of places close the trails during wet periods? I've been told Waterbury closes when wet? Does this mean that it is okay to ride in late November and early spring? Whether state, fed or private land Its about respect for nature. The group that i ride with down south stay off the trails when wet just out of respect for the land.

The youtube vid shows standing water on many parts of the trail.



It's good to know that my friends and i don't need to check on trail conditions when we come up to ride in the MRV. Wet or dry ride them.

[Jester]

If its okay to ride the trail wet. Then why do alot of places close the trails during wet periods? I've been told Waterbury closes when wet? Does this mean that it is okay to ride in late November and early spring? Whether state, fed or private land Its about respect for nature. The group that i ride with down south stay off the trails when wet just out of respect for the land.

The youtube vid shows standing water on many parts of the trail.



It's good to know that my friends and i don't need to check on trail conditions when we come up to ride in the MRV. Wet or dry ride them.

[Go Figure]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKK0z-fAhz4
Love the video, shot while its raining! Mud everywhere ,like a mud pit. Plenty of time to [according to IMBA] lay out an alternate route.All trough this vid. saying its very wet and muddy while rining in the rain through mud. Great words of advise in the closing minute of the video," ride on the side of the trail on the vegetation to get traction" :roll: . I have never seen a video that shows a greater lack of respect for trails. It does not matter that this is private land and some is being "fixed", it is a lack of respect for accepted guidelines for trail management.
Recently a "What Goes Down" acticle admonished everyone to stay off the wet trails. Most locals have been doing this {notice the empty roof racks}. THe poor route choice and conditions have been the subject of much discussion at the local shop.
As for posting here, its a Sugarbush production and My Wife tried to talk to someone at the mountain. After being on hold for 6 minutes, she was told there was no one available to talk to about the issue.
Our Daughter is arriving from CA. for a visit this week and We had to tell Her We would not be going for much riding as the wet weather has settled in and probably won't dry out while You are here.



[quote]I've come full circle on the whole "don't ride when it's wet" philosophy. When I first started riding back in the 1970's and 1980's, I rode whenever and wherever. Then I started getting educated and tried being a stickler for dry trails. In the last few years, I learned that properly built trails can be ridden in the rain.
Scotland is one of the best biking areas in the world and they get massive amounts of rain. They've armored and drained their trails to the point that weather doesn't affect them that much. Guess where I learned about Scotland? At a VMBA/IMBA trail-building conference.

The Mad River Riders and the Mad River Path Association have done several hundred hours of maintenance this spring and summer already. Sugarbush has supported some of these efforts, including the work done today and a lot of the work done on the Plum Line earlier this year. Yet there is so much more to do. The project list is huge and we need lots of help. If you want trails that ride great no matter the weather, we need less bitchin and more pitch in. [Quote]

Please, folks around here have been riding respectfully for years and do not need to toil in the woods to "armour" trails.WE were riding PLum and High plum in the mid 80's and knew when to avoid them. There are plenty of other activities to occupy ones time [we have been floating a lot lately {both white and flat}] so dig deep and let it dry out. There are a few Scots here but its not Scoland.

[Go Figure]

If its okay to ride the trail wet. Then why do alot of places close the trails during wet periods? I've been told Waterbury closes when wet? Does this mean that it is okay to ride in late November and early spring? Whether state, fed or private land Its about respect for nature. The group that i ride with down south stay off the trails when wet just out of respect for the land.

The youtube vid shows standing water on many parts of the trail.



It's good to know that my friends and i don't need to check on trail conditions when we come up to ride in the MRV. Wet or dry ride them.

Jester, Looks like the "official" VMBA/IMBA word is ride it wet or dry in the MRV. Tell Your local riders they can get a map and directions at the local shop.
Waterbury has done about 400 hours of work on the upper trails in the last few years and still close them for several days after rain.

[Jester]

With all the water in the vid the trails in the mrv must not be built right? I also thought that when you ride during wet conditions you are supposed to pedal thru the water not around it. To protect the veg? Maybe the people in waterbury can teach the people in the mrv how to build trails that drain and teach them to pedal thru. So you don't widen them. The mrv vally trails are wide enough/ I can't believe that someone would promote riding on the veg for traction. But the one guy couldn't even stay on his bike so he needed to destroy the veg to stay on the bike. COOL! The traills are so wide in the mrv anyway. I bet that most of the private land owners have a stake in Sugarbush???

[Hawk]

The guy in the video was not from around here. He didn't even know what sap lines were. He was probably from out west and doesn't understand riding in water and what all that green stuff was on the edges of the trails. :wink:

All kidding aside, I for one do not like riding in the mud so I didn't ride the lower valley trails this weekend. Riding at the mountain wasn't bad at all. But I wouldn't say that the "locals" do not ride the trails when they are wet. As a matter of fact I saw a few (no names) long time MRV and Waterbury regulars out on Saturday totally covered in mud. It looked like they rode Clinic or maybe Denyland and were headed back towards bike shop.

So I would say that the blame is on everybody and not just the mountain. Why single them out for one event when the problem is wide spread. The long and the short of it is if you really want to stop the damage then stop the riding all together. Otherwise every time you ride you impact the trails. Dry or wet. I am sure that every rider including all of you has done some riding in wet or semi-wet conditions. That would make you guys’ hypocrites to some extent. Right?

Look... I'm not advocating closure just pointing out that there is a lot of work and education that needs to be done. I love the mountain that I ski at and do not want to see future plans ruined because someone has an ax to grind. Maybe they made a mistake and will learn for next time. Reporting them to the USFS only creates a big issue for all future projects summer and winter.

That is all.....

[HowieT2]

Has IMBA (or whatever the sanctioning organization is) ever canceled a race to protect wet trails?
I doubt it. These races are planned well in advance and take a significant amount of work to pull off. I don't see how they could cancel a race simply because the trails are wet.
As for an alternate route, wouldn't that route also be wet and therefore verboten?

As for me, I do my part to stay off wet trails (most of the time) for purely selfish reasons. I've had enough of falling on my a**.

Hawk-good point about tattling to the USFS.

[atkinson]

Many sections of trail in the network need more work to be built properly, but the vast majority of people would rather ride than work, so things take longer to get done. And a LOT of locals have ridden right through all this rain. Cyclone has more mudpits than ever, despite official early season closures, and very few riders seem able or willing to stop and armor the trail.

The state asks VMBA to close trails when it rains, but once we've got them armored and draining properly, there will be little reason to continue closing them. You may also notice that the GMC does not regularly close trails due to rain, nor do they automatically cancel group hikes because of water.

A mud pit isn't necessarily pretty, but it isn't eroding either. Trail widening and riding over vegetation are long-term issues on the Mad River Riders network, which we've strived to limit through proper maintenance and building techniques. Xterra didn't make the start of Sugar Run any wider than the local riders and hikers have made it for the last twenty plus years. However, we went and did drainage yesterday that will hopefully allow for a single track to redevelop.

Speaking of Plum, the entrance to Plum Creek has been muddy constantly since it was first built and people have ridden it for years without lifting a finger to help it drain or dry. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have ridden that trail and it was even remotely dry in some spots.

High Plum has other build and maintenance issues that need attention too, but the prevailing feeling among some riders is don't do anything beyond what has already been done, regardless of what is falling apart or dangerous. I donated most of the wood for the bridge that everybody seems to love so much, but when I first started riding that trail, it didn't have anything built on it.

Why don't we just go back to the way it was? Because it was basically unrideable for all but a two or three people. And still is. Despite my decent skills, I tend to walk more of that trail than I ride and it simply doesn't have good flow yet. I don't think we should try to take out all the challenge, but there is a difference between risk and hazard and some smart benching and rock work would make it much more fun and sustainable, not to mention safer. Disagree if you want, but we also have responsiblity to the landowners to properly build and maintain the trails.

I don't like to ride in the mud, but sometimes do. VMBA and IMBA are correct in asking people to be respectful, but this doesn't mean we need to be draconian in these efforts.

I've spent more hours working on trails than riding this year, by a factor of at least ten. Some stuff has been rain-proofed, but a lot more needs to be done. Anonymous ranting on the web, without coming to trail days or supporting the club, does not give one much credence. Bring your energy and ideas to the trail and a lot more people will listen.

John

[summitchallenger]

Hawk-good point about tattling to the USFS.

Again, I understand why some folks feel that the mountain doesn't care or won't listen, but coming in here and posting grievances is problematic for many reasons. First, it erodes the complainer's credibility. Second, it makes the entire board look bad. Third, when SB gets in trouble, everyone loses. The management, hell, the ownership are all very accessible and they are very visible and open to comment.

[Yard Sale]

I think that current trail issues are more related to the strange wet spring and summer it has been than to mountain policies. It seems to me that the overall record and philosophy of SV Corp has demonstrated to employ a thoughtful and balanced approach between utilization and preservation of the mountain.

Bottom line: I don't know Shizzle about mountain biking but, "You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather
take the butcher's word for it?"
Tommy Boy/1995

Uh . . . . in this case Win would probably be the butcher. . . . I'm not sure who the bull represents, maybe USFS.

[HowieT2]

Hawk-good point about tattling to the USFS.

Again, I understand why some folks feel that the mountain doesn't care or won't listen, but coming in here and posting grievances is problematic for many reasons. First, it erodes the complainer's credibility. Second, it makes the entire board look bad. Third, when SB gets in trouble, everyone loses. The management, hell, the ownership are all very accessible and they are very visible and open to comment.

I draw the line at trying to get the mtn in trouble with the authorities. Complaints should be freely expressed on this board. It is part of what makes the discussions useful. Given the participation of management and locals, it should be done in a respectful and constructive way. Especially since management has been so receptive and responsive in the past.

[win]

If anyone wants to speak to me personally, it is easy. wsmith@sugarbush.com or 583-6832.

[Jester]

I rememeber reading an article that the state provided money to armor the cyclone last year. If it's not draining properly after that can you really "armor" it or any trail?

[Xcreamus]

but coming in here and posting grievances is problematic for many reasons. First, it erodes the complainer's credibility. Second, it makes the entire board look bad. Third, when SB gets in trouble, everyone loses. The management, hell, the ownership are all very accessible and they are very visible and open to comment.

I think the credibility of a poster has to do with the truth of what they say. not whether they complain about anything.

I also think the board looks worse if everyone only agrees with the mountain. That is not to say that everyone should argue or put the mountain down but rather speak the truth as they see it.

Self censorship can be the worst kind.


Just my $.02


Oh yeah... And I don't care about mountainbikes. Just keep them out of the way of my boat! :wink:

[atkinson]

The work done of Cyclone last year was mainly on the lower part and included two bridges, plus other major reroutes and armoring projects. The areas where work was done are draining well and in good or great condition. The upper part saw no work from the VYCC crew and this is where most of the problems persist. The only argument against more armoring is that it takes effort to get off your bike and do it.

Guyers got a pass through yesterday, with some new rock work. I can't believe how much awesome stone there is in these woods. Huge flat slabs and beautiful quartz abound. I started up Hell Hill too, and got the flat section after the first steep pitch to start draining. More work is needed here and we will be continuing to move through the rest of the course over the next month or so.

The sections of the course that look the same as always are clearly well-designed and built, while the problem areas highlight where work needs to be done. We had a little over 100 competitors in three days. This amount of traffic is less than what the trails in Waterbury see in a similar time frame.

I appreciate that people have concerns and don't want to stifle any discussion. This is all a work in progress and we need help to keep evolving.

John