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muddy_hollow
03-18-2009, 02:17 PM
In the news today is an article on Liam Neesons wife Natasha Richardson being injured at Mount Tremblant in Canada last week.. She is now brain dead. The link to the article is below, but the net of it was that she was on a beginner green trail and crashed during a private lesson. She was not wearing a helmet and did not have any injuries until after returning to her room, where she started having headaches. Long story short, she is in a NYC hospital how on life support.

I am a converted Helmet guy now.... funny how kids do that to you. The story is very sad, but just adds to the fact helmets should be worn..... if not mandatory for ski school.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1162595/Natasha-Richardson-kept-alive-life-support-relatives-say-final-farewells.html

Mud

madhavok
03-18-2009, 02:54 PM
Story is sad, but this is also the wrong forum.

Jester
03-18-2009, 03:11 PM
Why wrong forum?

HowieT2
03-18-2009, 03:27 PM
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/richardsons-accident-reignites-ski-helmet-debate/

Dawn Patrol
03-18-2009, 03:54 PM
Why wrong forum?

I don't want to speak for a chimp with a gun, but if I had to guess, it's because this is the Sugarbush forum, and the story isn't Sugarbush related.

Jester
03-18-2009, 06:00 PM
I hear you. But someone was just trying to point out a ski safety issue. Since Sugarbush is a ski resort and safety is important to the resort.... safety tips should be welcomed.

Lostone
03-18-2009, 09:05 PM
Moved to Miscellaneous...

For the record, folks, don't be shy about putting things that are not directly related to any of the other rooms (Sugarbush, MRG, Valley, Site feedback) into this section. If people go to our top page, it is still visible to all, and they really should. :wink:


As to the original topic, I've sold three people on the idea of helmets, recently. I told them my head might not be worth much, but the replacement might be really expensive. Then I asked how much they were planning on paying for their replacement. :wink:

Helmets won't save you all the time. But earlier I heard of a child who fell and cracked their helmet. That is a helmet that really paid for itself. I hope never to have mine pay for itself. :oops:

happygirl
03-19-2009, 09:40 AM
People die in car accidents all the time and yet, we don't put a helmet on when we get into our cars. I think helmets give people a false sense of security. Wearing a helmet doesn't make you invinsible.

vonski
03-19-2009, 10:24 AM
People die in car accidents all the time and yet, we don't put a helmet on when we get into our cars. I think helmets give people a false sense of security. Wearing a helmet doesn't make you invinsible.

No, but we put on seatbelts! and race car drivers wear helmets as well as, Football players lacrosse, hockey players and down hill ski racers. Of course, there is always some false sense of security, but get real. They will prevent injuries and they will save lives. And when your in your car, chances are your not going to hit your head on some boiler plate type ice, while going through the parking lot. The prompt for this thread was a death on a hardpacked bunny hill. So, be happy without your helmet and start pricing your replacement.

HowieT2
03-19-2009, 10:36 AM
That's a ridiculous argument. We are required to wear seatbelts in cars and many lives have been saved because of it. If you ride a motorcycle without a helmet you are insane.
Helmets won't prevent all injuries but they do prevent some. What is the downside to wearing a helmet? The only negatives I have heard are that they restrict peripheral vision and/ or hearing. I think that is completely without merit.

There are those who would argue that it is a matter of personal freedom. That's true until you have a serious brain injury for which Medicare and hence the taxpayer will be paying the cost of care.

tomthumb
03-19-2009, 11:11 AM
True Story: A skier fell on a groomer after a "premature" binding release. Did a somersault, got up, put his skis back on, skied down to the lodge and decided to call it a day. While putting on his street clothes, he felt a pain in his neck. He walked down to the clinic and the doc decided he should go to the hospital to get checked out. Ambulance came, back boarded, c-collared and transported. The EMT asked the skier if he was wearing a helmet. His response: "I'm an expert skier, and have been skiing for 25 years without a helmet." The EMT responded: "Expert?, and now your on a backboard, in an ambulance on your way to the hospital!"

He ended up having fractured vertebrae in his neck. Not that a helmet would have necessarily prevented this injury, but it goes to show that even "expert" skiers can fall down and go BOOM. Helmets won't prevent some injuries, but they will prevent (or reduce) more injuries than they will cause.

WWW: Warm, Waterproof, Windproof. My goggles don't fog when I slide them up onto the helmet. I can see and hear just fine with a helmet on, and tend to focus more on what's in front of me than my peripheral vision.

Hawk
03-19-2009, 11:25 AM
Howie, I don't get the medicare thing. Isn't long term disability covered by your insurance. I have insurace. When I get hurt it pays and not the taxpayers. I also have a friend that got hurt a while back. His insurace ran out and now he has tremendous dept. No taxpayers are paying for him. If there is some program out there please let me know.

Personally I started wearing one for the last two years. I will say that it is a personel choice that was made because my wife was so stongly for it. Her logic was "you mountain bike with a helmet. You Ski twice as fast and do not wear a helmet. Is that smart?" Well I couldn't argue with that logic so we made a deal. I do not particulaly like wearing it and would prefer to just wear my hat.

The long and the short of it for me is why should Government tell me what I should do? It should be a personel choice and a freedom that is very american and not a law to be inforced. The opinios of other more conservative people should not be impressed onto others. Personal Responcibility is what it is called. :wink: But that's just me......

Strat
03-19-2009, 12:57 PM
Fresh national news: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/19/ski.safety/index.html

ahm
03-19-2009, 01:34 PM
Once Gordy Howe was asked why he did not wear a helmet in the NHL but did wear a cup. He replied you can always get someone to do your thinking for you. As for helmets and skiing. It is a personal choice and let's keep it that way. The AMA claims they will not provide much safety when the skier is going over 30 mph. A good proportion of skiers are going over 30 mph. I know a lot of top skiers and international guides that do not wear helmets. Again, their personal choice. For me, I tried one once and didn't like it, but in certain situations I can see using one and hence although I left the original in the bar after my one day trial, I did retrieve it the next day for future use.
http://www.postimage.org/Pq25TjfS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq25TjfS)

happygirl
03-19-2009, 01:42 PM
Once Gordy Howe was asked why he did not wear a helmet in the NHL but did wear a cup. He replied you can always get someone to do your thinking for you. As for helmets and skiing. It is a personal choice and let's keep it that way. The AMA claims they will not provide much safety when the skier is going over 30 mph. A good proportion of skiers are going over 30 mph. I know a lot of top skiers and international guides that do not wear helmets. Again, their personal choice. For me, I tried one once and didn't like it, but in certain situations I can see using one and hence although I left the original in the bar after my one day trial, I did retrieve it the next day for future use.
http://www.postimage.org/Pq25TjfS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq25TjfS)

I agree, I think its a personal choice. Some people think if they have a helmet its a license to be reckless. People that wear helmets usually don't hear me coming up beside them, which is not good either. But, its a free country and if some people feel better with a helmet thats right for them and I can respect that.

HowieT2
03-19-2009, 02:07 PM
Howie, I don't get the medicare thing. Isn't long term disability covered by your insurance. I have insurace. When I get hurt it pays and not the taxpayers. I also have a friend that got hurt a while back. His insurace ran out and now he has tremendous dept. No taxpayers are paying for him. If there is some program out there please let me know.

Personally I started wearing one for the last two years. I will say that it is a personel choice that was made because my wife was so stongly for it. Her logic was "you mountain bike with a helmet. You Ski twice as fast and do not wear a helmet. Is that smart?" Well I couldn't argue with that logic so we made a deal. I do not particulaly like wearing it and would prefer to just wear my hat.

The long and the short of it for me is why should Government tell me what I should do? It should be a personel choice and a freedom that is very american and not a law to be inforced. The opinios of other more conservative people should not be impressed onto others. Personal Responcibility is what it is called. :wink: But that's just me......

Medical insurance has a limit. Once you reach that limit it will no longer cover you. If you have a serious brain injury rendering you disabled you qualify for social security Disability and Medicare. It is likely that if you have a significant brain injury you will exhaust your insurance coverage and Medicare will pick up the tab.

I used to feel the same way you do about the seatbelt laws. why should the government tell me what to do. In a perfect world you are correct. People would make the right decisions based on perfect information. Unfortunately we live in a most imperfect world. We never have perfect information and even when we do, many will make the wrong decision. Seatbelts save lives and prevent many serious injuries at minimal, if any, cost. Helmets are the same. At worst they are a trivial inconvenience but could save you from a very serious problem.

FWIW-I have some experience and knowledge of brain injuries through my work. What I have learned is that our knowledge of brain injury is very limited today. But in the last decade new diagnostic technologies (PET scan, QEEG, and others) have revealed that brain injuries are much more common than previously thought. Examination of the brains of 6 NFL players who died in their 40's revealed extensive damage similar to people with dementia. I believe it will soon be widely recognized that brain injury is a much more common and serious problem.
The brain is very delicate having a consistency like jello. Even without direct trauma the nerve connections can be sheared resulting in permanent impairment. Many decisions in life involve balancing risk/benefit. Protecting your brain by wearing a helmet is an easy call. It's a "no brainer."

aejkb
03-19-2009, 02:30 PM
I agree that you're an idiot if you dont wear a helmet. I agree that people have the right to be idiots and choose not to wear helmets. Im not sure how I feel about a ski mountain requiring helmets, like certain states do with motorcycles. I do think is that the rental shop should have helmets available for rent. i understand that there maybe hygene issues, in which case inexpensive helmets should be offered for sale. Helmets prevent head injuries. Its crazy that the typical skier not wearing a helmet is a. beginner b.teenage boarder c.middle age and up lifelong skier. The beginner child or adult who comes to the mountain to rent and learn to ski would, i suspect, want a helmet if it was available. Win please consider figuring out a way to make helmets available to those who want them.

Strat
03-19-2009, 02:58 PM
I agree that you're an idiot if you dont wear a helmet. I agree that people have the right to be idiots and choose not to wear helmets. Im not sure how I feel about a ski mountain requiring helmets, like certain states do with motorcycles. I do think is that the rental shop should have helmets available for rent. i understand that there maybe hygene issues, in which case inexpensive helmets should be offered for sale. Helmets prevent head injuries. Its crazy that the typical skier not wearing a helmet is a. beginner b.teenage boarder c.middle age and up lifelong skier. The beginner child or adult who comes to the mountain to rent and learn to ski would, i suspect, want a helmet if it was available. Win please consider figuring out a way to make helmets available to those who want them.
Not to bring this debate up for the umpteenth time, but please don't stereotype - in my experience, and I think many would agree, the "reckless teenager" model applies just as much to those with two planks as those with one.

Lostone
03-19-2009, 08:43 PM
I know a lot of people who ski in the woods and haven't been clotheslined, or tripped by some unseen object, but I know a lot who have. Where you fall at that time is really a matter of luck.

Some of my worst falls have been on perfectly lame territory. All of a sudden, my skis decided they wanted to be elsewhere. :cry:

Last year, I had a couple friends come up to visit. One was giving the other a lot of crap about her helmet. She mentioned it to me, with laughing derision... until I told her I always wore one. The next day, they went out skiing and she was shocked at how many people were wearing helmets.


I'm not saying others should be required to wear helmets, but I feel weird when I ski without mine, even tho I had years before a few of us had the same thoughts as Hawk's wife, about the mountain biking thing. A friend and I got one. Everyone in the ski club poked fun at us... but they now all have them. :wink:

For the record, I also feel weird when I drive without my seatbelt, or even ride in a vehicle.

Ski with a helmet, and act like you don't have one. 8)

aejkb
03-20-2009, 05:45 AM
I agree that you're an idiot if you dont wear a helmet. I agree that people have the right to be idiots and choose not to wear helmets. Im not sure how I feel about a ski mountain requiring helmets, like certain states do with motorcycles. I do think is that the rental shop should have helmets available for rent. i understand that there maybe hygene issues, in which case inexpensive helmets should be offered for sale. Helmets prevent head injuries. Its crazy that the typical skier not wearing a helmet is a. beginner b.teenage boarder c.middle age and up lifelong skier. The beginner child or adult who comes to the mountain to rent and learn to ski would, i suspect, want a helmet if it was available. Win please consider figuring out a way to make helmets available to those who want them.
Not to bring this debate up for the umpteenth time, but please don't stereotype - in my experience, and I think many would agree, the "reckless teenager" model applies just as much to those with two planks as those with one.

I never said reckless; I should have said that many boarders dont wear helmets. Boarders are typically younger, though not necessarily teenagers. However, I agree with your point that teenagers are often reckless, whether on skis or a board. My larger point was that the rental shop should have helmets for rent for the novice skier who comes to the mountain with nothing. The helmets in the shop are typically $100+

Hawk
03-20-2009, 06:23 AM
Once Gordy Howe was asked why he did not wear a helmet in the NHL but did wear a cup. He replied you can always get someone to do your thinking for you. As for helmets and skiing. It is a personal choice and let's keep it that way. The AMA claims they will not provide much safety when the skier is going over 30 mph. A good proportion of skiers are going over 30 mph. I know a lot of top skiers and international guides that do not wear helmets. Again, their personal choice. For me, I tried one once and didn't like it, but in certain situations I can see using one and hence although I left the original in the bar after my one day trial, I did retrieve it the next day for future use.
http://www.postimage.org/Pq25TjfS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq25TjfS)

I agree, I think its a personal choice. Some people think if they have a helmet its a license to be reckless. People that wear helmets usually don't hear me coming up beside them, which is not good either. But, its a free country and if some people feel better with a helmet thats right for them and I can respect that.

I understand your thoughts Happygirl but two things:
People that are reckless do not need a helmet to make them reckless. They were already that way... :shock:
It is not the person with the helmet's responsibility to hear you. If you are coming up on a person it's your responsibility to avoid them. What if that person were deaf? They would not hear you regardless. This is part of the Skier responcibility code and for the record I have no problem hearing people coming up on me with my helmet. :wink:

djd66
03-20-2009, 08:36 PM
Ok, let me set the record, I don't wear a helmet. The few times I am in the woods, I do think it would be smart to have one on. Other than that, I do not feel it is a necessary piece of equipment for me. Both my kids wear them because I (me as their parent) think is smart for them to wear one - as they do not have the experience that I have. Why is it that people that wear helmet are all righteous about wearing helmets and tell me I am an idiot if I don't wear a helmet? Take it a step further - am I an idiot because I ski? Someone who doesn't ski may think so. Are people that jump out of airplanes idiots? Are people that race cars idiots? Are people that live life idiots? Bottom line, don't judge me. I know what is right for me. I know what is right for my kids.

Strat
03-20-2009, 09:34 PM
IMO people who don't wear helmets are not idiots; for me, it's much more of a personal choice than, for example, wearing a seat belt. I can't understand driving or riding without a seat belt; it's just so easy and painless. Some people don't like the weight or the feeling of a helmet or whatever, and if they feel safe and secure, then I don't think it's showing a complete lack of common sense to not wear one.
Also, I don't think hearing is compromised at all by a helmet - obviously, I've never ridden without one, so I can't say for sure, but it's very rare that I don't hear skiers and snowboarders around me, especially riding on your average VT conditions :wink:

RedneckMutha
03-23-2009, 09:35 AM
wITH ALL OF THIS BACK AND FORTH ABOUT HARD HATS, i GUESS COMMON CENTS AIN'T SO COMMON...............HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!

For the Record: The RedNeck has been wearing a hard hat since my ski racing days, from back in the day. It's in my favorite color RED!

thinksnow
03-25-2009, 01:05 PM
As a ski patroller, I do believe helmets help reduce injuries.

However, as a skiier, I don't believe they should be mandatory. Think about "Natural selection"-- if someone gets hurt/injured while not wearing a helmet, that will be one less person to stand behind in line next season! =D

Jester
03-30-2009, 04:16 PM
Does a seatbelt give a driver a false sense of security? I wear a helmet more for all the out of control skiers on the hill which is the same reason i wear a seltbelt.

ski_resort_observer
03-30-2009, 04:26 PM
All the ski shops I know do not rent helmets anymore due to liability issues. Guest Services at the Bush will lend out for the day for free just about anything you can think of but not helmets for the same liability issues. If hygiene was an issue I don't think bowling alley's would rent shoes plus most helmets nowadays the ear muffs and inside fabric can be easily removed for cleaning.

vonski
03-30-2009, 05:51 PM
From a hygiene standpoint. they could just give one the head stockings that are similar to what one wears under a wig. They are similar in material to pantyhose. Kinda like the little socks in a ladies shoe store. But fit and condition and the fact that giving out a helmet might imply that it going to protect you and give one a false sense of security are the liability issues.

TreeBandit
05-08-2009, 12:51 PM
As a former ski patroller for 9 years. I agree that helment do help prevent injuries, but it should be a choice. I wear one because I like it. It keeps me warm on cold days and does not add alot on the warmer days due to the venting. When my child started to ski she was not given a choice and I set the example with skiing and biking as we always wear a helmet. I also like pluging in my iPond in as well (but that is a different issue as I am sure other would have.)

As a note I cracked mine this year on a low hanging pine tree limb that I did not duck low enough for. I wonder what the branch would have done to my skull?