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View Full Version : Safe exits out of tree runs



mikec13
02-10-2009, 05:38 PM
Last weekend while I was skiing with my 9 year old and several teen agers I realized how dangerous some of the exits to the tree runs are...we were careful but there were still some close calls...I know this has been mentioned in the past and I know the skier exiting on to the main trail is the one who needs to be aware of the uphill skier but I wonder if there isn't a way to mark some of these exits...

Lostone
02-10-2009, 06:23 PM
I doubt it. There are just so many sections of woods and so many ways to get out of each.

mikec13
02-10-2009, 10:31 PM
i thought as much...think it is a much bigger deal at Mt Ellen

freeheel_skier
02-10-2009, 11:35 PM
Common sense should prevail.....if you are exiting in a tight situation :shock:

gratefulskier
02-11-2009, 02:42 PM
Yes, common sense should apply, but I've seen too much stupidity out there this year. One particular run that exits via a lip (leading to big air if one is not careful) onto Lower Ripcord was absolutely dangerous a few weeks ago. I guided a group of children through that run, but we were almost overrun by rude skiers in a hurry to get somewhere. They yelled at the kids to hurry up, and if I hadn't been there, they might have forced the kids to jump into oncoming traffic.

Then, after the kids finally cleared the area, these gentlemen proceeded to blast out of the trees, one after another. One nearly hit another skier coming down Ripcord. Another lost control and took out one of his own group. This was followed by all sorts of words that my ski group didn't need to hear.

There are some dangerous tree exits around the mountain. Before I ever take anyone into a run, we discuss the exit and its risks and the need for spotters at the exit point.

Nobody wants to make a trip to the clinic for any reason at all, and if we're all careful, we can reduce the risk.


GS

ahm
02-16-2009, 12:06 PM
All,

A very interesting topic and I'll start with: Ski in control! I recently got back from a cat trip and some ski touring in Rogers pass. One of the topics during cat skiing was "at what level do you ski". The owner of the operation claimed skiers should be at 90 % with about 10% room left over. I disagreed. I feel if you can't stop on a dime and I mean a dime, then you are out of control. I am typically skiing at about what I consider to be 70 - 75 % of skill level. Tree skiing can leave little room for error and unless you can quickly (3 - 5 ft) stop or easily move to dodge a tree when you have missed a turn, hit a tripper etc. then you are probably outside your control limit. When skiing woods and preparing to exit into a "ski area run", you should have it completely under control about 30 feet from the exit and be looking at the exit and seeing where skiers on main trails are. THere are no reasons to have near misses when you exit the woods unless the "woods skier" is not paying attention. Just my two cents. BTW. The cat op was White Grizzly in Meadow Creek BC. It featured quite steep, pretty tight tree skiing and having it under control with many features and steep (> 40 degrees) roll overs was pretty important. One rider did not, hit a tree and we spent two hours in rescue mode, getting a stashed sled, bringing it to the skier and getting them back to the cat and then down to a rendezvous and out to the hospital. Rogers Pass was excellent, full of nice glacial powder and the touring and scenery were just prime on the Lily, Illecillewaet and Asulkan glaciers. Ski smart, ski within your own limits and exit onto ski area trails with caution.

jwt
02-16-2009, 05:08 PM
ahm,

Tree exits - like the little 'chute' at the end of Looking Good Woods - I have no idea what the trail name is if in fact there is one?- tight , high lip out to trail - we spot when we go in with kids but if alone, I shout out, look and launch.
Problem is it is a green trail - lots of novices who do have a hard time controlling speed and let's face it, have no idea people actually ski woods, so they never expect a skier shooting out of a slight lip - which can either stop you if you don't have enough speed, or launch you.

Maybe an orange pole there, same with little chute that follows that goes around the fallen tree further down and comes out across from the entrance to Lower FIS. Couldn't agree more that everyone needs to be aware and in control - but it is not reality especially with all the kids in that particular tree run. It would unfortunately 'signal' such places though - like over at Exterm Woods.
Sounds like a great trip - couple of questions - The group doesn't get the extra vertical lost while evac, correct?
If you don't mind, could you chare the cost of one such trip? Charge by # of runs, vertical, or time? Heading to the 'Hole and Utah next week, thinking about a possible sno-cat trip depending on natural snow fall.
I'll second the scenery comment in BC/Alberta - never have I seen anything quite like it in the lower 48.

castlerock
02-16-2009, 07:54 PM
And I (and he probably) will be the first to tell you so! The skier coming out of the woods is and will be always the at fault skier in any incident. No excuses, adult, child whatever. If there is a launch at the end of the woods trail avoid it, ski across it etc. Not even open for debate.

Strat
02-16-2009, 07:55 PM
I've been popped out on before, on the Northway heading over to Inverness by people coming down off Exterm Woods. I coincidentally knew the guys though, and we all had a good laugh about it. The key is just to be alert, because coming from an area where you can't be seen, you simply don't have right of way.

summitchallenger
02-16-2009, 09:06 PM
I've been almost hit by folks coming out of trees, but the biggest problem I have seen are kids that are launching off of things (such as jumps on Sleeper) on busy holiday weekends into heavily traveled areas. As I mentioned it was either the first or second day this season that a snowboarder decided he had to do a 360 off the edge of Lower Deathspout and in doing so he hit me. Brilliant. We have terrain parks for that kind of stuff....besides, someone (parents, friends) need to provide some guidance.

vonski
02-16-2009, 09:17 PM
Being a Bushwhacker, I never seem to have a problem as I am usually coming out of some small opening that does not allow one to launch out of the woods. It is good to be a regular though on the mountain, as you learn where the launch points are and can avoid skiing in front of those points. ( ie rim run, and near bottom of Ripcord on way back to Downspout) I agree the person coming out of the woods does not have the right of way!!! I once had to put a shoulder into some young idiot at Jay Peak. He came out of nowhere from a launch. Luckily I had some significant body mass on the kid and blasted him off of his snow board. He claimed to be French. I wondered how that would work if I was to have gotten hurt!!!!

BHL
02-16-2009, 11:16 PM
If the exit is obscured like poop chute or exterm, having a spotter at the exit point works well. First skier out is responsible. He calls to the group and says "clear" or "hold up." Yes it's hard to organize a rabid group of tree dogs sometimes, but a little discipline goes a long way. And yes, absolutely, skiers on the trail have the right of way no question end of discussion.

gratefulskier
02-17-2009, 09:15 AM
Summitchallenger,

I agree that the jumping on Sleeper and a few other places can get out of hand on crowded days. It happens on uncrowded days as well. The one jump in the middle of Sleeper is particularly dangerous because the jumpers start on one side of the trail and land on the far side, so they are traversing the entire width of the trail.

When I'm skiing with children who want to jump there, I work as a spotter for each child. I use my poles to indicate when it's safe to go or when they should hold up. Crossed poles mean hold up and two parallel vertical poles mean all clear.

What amazes me is the number of people who will just come down the trail, jump right in front of the kids who are waiting for an all clear signal, and just go for the jumps. Not only are they cutting in front of people who are being safe, but they are also putting themselves and others in danger.

On Sunday morning, when Sleeper opened late, many Blazer groups went to the Terrain Park early. The kids were lined up at the entrance, taking cues from their coaches, and proceeding when it was safe. Two other kids ducked the rope and after seeing a bunch of kids go, asked me if they could just go. I told them that all the kids in line had been there before them, but didn't tell them what they could or couldn't do. While they were clearly impatient, I was very glad to see that they waited their turn. The terrain park would be much safer if everyone followed the rules and showed some common courtesy.

I don't post here very often, but as a Blazer coach who is responsible for the safety of other people's children, this topic is very relevant to what I do on the mountain every single day. On crowded weekends, the kids get very tired of hearing me repeat myself about safety issues, but regretfully, some of the best safety work we can all do is "defensive skiing". I hate assuming the worst about other guests on the mountain, but I'd rather be overly cautious than explain to a parent why his or her child is in the clinic.


GS

ManyTurns
02-17-2009, 07:34 PM
If the exit is obscured like poop chute or exterm, having a spotter at the exit point works well. First skier out is responsible. He calls to the group and says "clear" or "hold up." Yes it's hard to organize a rabid group of tree dogs sometimes, but a little discipline goes a long way. And yes, absolutely, skiers on the trail have the right of way no question end of discussion.

I second this; I was going to post it myself. My friends and I have been calling the tree exits for years.

I was in Snowbird last week, and observed another useful behavior. In poor visibility and flat lighting, the first skier to reach a cat track stops and yells "cat track" to each subsequent skier in the group. Having had a herniated disk that may have been the result of landing flat on a road, I have to believe this can prevent back and knee injuries.

ManyTurns
02-17-2009, 07:44 PM
All,

A very interesting topic and I'll start with: Ski in control! I recently got back from a cat trip and some ski touring in Rogers pass. One of the topics during cat skiing was "at what level do you ski". The owner of the operation claimed skiers should be at 90 % with about 10% room left over. I disagreed. I feel if you can't stop on a dime and I mean a dime, then you are out of control. I am typically skiing at about what I consider to be 70 - 75 % of skill level. Tree skiing can leave little room for error and unless you can quickly (3 - 5 ft) stop or easily move to dodge a tree when you have missed a turn, hit a tripper etc. then you are probably outside your control limit. When skiing woods and preparing to exit into a "ski area run", you should have it completely under control about 30 feet from the exit and be looking at the exit and seeing where skiers on main trails are. THere are no reasons to have near misses when you exit the woods unless the "woods skier" is not paying attention. Just my two cents. BTW. The cat op was White Grizzly in Meadow Creek BC. It featured quite steep, pretty tight tree skiing and having it under control with many features and steep (> 40 degrees) roll overs was pretty important. One rider did not, hit a tree and we spent two hours in rescue mode, getting a stashed sled, bringing it to the skier and getting them back to the cat and then down to a rendezvous and out to the hospital. Rogers Pass was excellent, full of nice glacial powder and the touring and scenery were just prime on the Lily, Illecillewaet and Asulkan glaciers. Ski smart, ski within your own limits and exit onto ski area trails with caution.

How do you quantify percentage of skill level? You can't buy a meter that measures this, and I'm not aware of rules of thumb to estimate it. I've never thought as I skied, "now I am at 70% of my skill level."

Also, I think the 3-5 foot stopping distance is impractically short. I would hazard a guess that your actual stopping distance is more like 10-15 feet. If you can stop in 3 feet, you're not moving fast enough to develop the power to turn when you need to.