LP Village Phase II: Almost Shovel Ready?

[shadyjay]

When leaving work tonight, saw fresh paint and stakes marking out the new buildings to replace the interim village. One was labelled "Adventure Center SW Corner" or something of that nature. As a former surveyor of 8 years, I notice stuff like that. The stakes extend uphill through the "Terrain Garden". Looks like the buildings will not extend into the "drop-off" zone, but will extend uphill a little and come quite close to the Village Chair's loading zone.

This is very tangible evidence of construction in the near future!

[Tin Woodsman]

When leaving work tonight, saw fresh paint and stakes marking out the new buildings to replace the interim village. One was labelled "Adventure Center SW Corner" or something of that nature. As a former surveyor of 8 years, I notice stuff like that. The stakes extend uphill through the "Terrain Garden". Looks like the buildings will not extend into the "drop-off" zone, but will extend uphill a little and come quite close to the Village Chair's loading zone.

This is very tangible evidence of construction in the near future!
I noticed that to. FWIW, the village chair's loading zone will be moving as well, a little bit to the NE if the renderings are to be believed.

I also heard this week that the Kids Ski School bldg no longer includes space for day care. If this is true, it's incredibly lame and short-sighted on numerous fronts. Perhaps it's money, perhaps it's on the advice of the new design team, or maybe a function of state outdoor space requirements for day cares, but it's absolutely brainless to keep day care on a separate island like that.

[HowieT2]

When leaving work tonight, saw fresh paint and stakes marking out the new buildings to replace the interim village. One was labelled "Adventure Center SW Corner" or something of that nature. As a former surveyor of 8 years, I notice stuff like that. The stakes extend uphill through the "Terrain Garden". Looks like the buildings will not extend into the "drop-off" zone, but will extend uphill a little and come quite close to the Village Chair's loading zone.

This is very tangible evidence of construction in the near future!
I noticed that to. FWIW, the village chair's loading zone will be moving as well, a little bit to the NE if the renderings are to be believed.

I also heard this week that the Kids Ski School bldg no longer includes space for day care. If this is true, it's incredibly lame and short-sighted on numerous fronts. Perhaps it's money, perhaps it's on the advice of the new design team, or maybe a function of state outdoor space requirements for day cares, but it's absolutely brainless to keep day care on a separate island like that.

That is so stupid it's hard to believe

[sgottmann]

I also heard this week that the Kids Ski School bldg no longer includes space for day care. If this is true, it's incredibly lame and short-sighted on numerous fronts. Perhaps it's money, perhaps it's on the advice of the new design team, or maybe a function of state outdoor space requirements for day cares, but it's absolutely brainless to keep day care on a separate island like that.[/quote]

That is so stupid it's hard to believe[/quote]

I agree the decision is terrible. I saw the presentation to the Board and it was indicated that the day care would remain where it is. This is a complete pain if you have a toddler and other young skiers -- 2 separate drop offs and pick ups. There are now going to be three new buildings with an overall decrease in square footage. While I like the appearance of the buildings and that 3 smaller buildings helps change the scale of the project, it would be much better, imo, to keep day care and kids school together.

[sgottmann]

For more info -- check out town of Warren website and application before Board

http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2009/Drb_Warinings/01.07.09_2008-13-SD.PRD.PreliminaryPlanApproval_2008-13-CU.Amendment%20to%20existing%20Permitsn_.2008-07-SD._2009-01-CU,Parcelpartially.Meadowland%20Overlay%20District .%20SFD.1094%20VT%20Rt.%20100.Mathew%20&%20Zoe%20Groom.pdf

check out this as well

http://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=5&Itemid=38&limit=5&limitstart=5

[madhavok]

Ski school and day care don't have to be in the same building. It takes all of 10 seconds to walk from one structure to another at the base. So having the services in separate structures will have minimal impact on a very few and zero impact on the rest. Besides maximizing the space for the ski school is smart & future looking. I expect ski school services will continue to grow plus I’m sure ski school creates more revenue than day care.

[chuck]

Having four girls, and having to do the morning drop offs at both micro bear den and mini bear den, this is a hassle! I don't think the two necessarily need to be in the same building, but being within walking distance of each other will certainly take allot of stress out of multiple driving drop offs, and get Mom and me on the mountain much faster.

[Tin Woodsman]

Ski school and day care don't have to be in the same building. It takes all of 10 seconds to walk from one structure to another at the base. So having the services in separate structures will have minimal impact on a very few and zero impact on the rest. Besides maximizing the space for the ski school is smart & future looking. I expect ski school services will continue to grow plus I’m sure ski school creates more revenue than day care.
Wrong.

Day care is remaining where it currently is - quite a bit more than a 10 second walk from where the ski school will be.

This is so incredibly short-sighted, it's difficult to believe.

[HowieT2]

Ski school and day care don't have to be in the same building. It takes all of 10 seconds to walk from one structure to another at the base. So having the services in separate structures will have minimal impact on a very few and zero impact on the rest. Besides maximizing the space for the ski school is smart & future looking. I expect ski school services will continue to grow plus I’m sure ski school creates more revenue than day care.

I have to disagree with you on this. Most families have more than 1 kid. Getting small kids ready to ski is a huge PIA and not a pleasant or relaxing experience to say the least. To have to take a child to be dropped off at ski school on the mtn, then go to a different location to drop off for day care, then come back to the Mtn to ski, is a huge issue. Obviously, same problem in the afternoon when it's pick up time. Furthermore, parents of day care age kids are generally concerned about the toddlers welfare, especially when they are leaving the little ones with strangers in an unfamiliar day care setting. If the day care is on the Mtn, the parents can check in on the kids, or at least have comfort in the fact that if there is a problem, they can easily drop by. If it's off Mtn, as it is now, that is not possible and therefore the experience is less pleasant. We had friends up last season who had to do this, with one kid in ski school and one in day care, and they were not happy at all. I believe it played a large part in ruining their experience at Sugarbush.

[Yard Sale]

FWIW, I don't dispute the inconvenience factor relative to the ski school. Having the skischool and day school close to one another obviously be more convenient to the majority of visitors, but there is other criteria to consider. One reason to leave the Day school where it is might to not sever the strained and distant connection between the new and the old. Having the Day school there can only drive more activity in that direction that can only help Mountainside, Miguel's Mutha Stuffs etc.

We're up just about every weekend, and our 18 mo. old is at the Day School almost every weekend. Again, not factoring in the distance/convenience, I do like visiting the village. And I like that it is off the beaten path because it makes finding a parking spot for drop is not too bad.

We're on mountain so our getting kids to where they need to be is easier than the majority. And certainly easier than the infrequent visitor that doesn't know the ropes. Just .02.

PS They do a nice job there too.

[chuck]

I must agree with tin and howie - if keeping the day care in it's current location is accurate, this is a major PITA.
Does anyone know for sure this is Wins/SV plan?

[Tin Woodsman]

For more info -- check out town of Warren website and application before Board

http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2009/Drb_Warinings/01.07.09_2008-13-SD.PRD.PreliminaryPlanApproval_2008-13-CU.Amendment%20to%20existing%20Permitsn_.2008-07-SD._2009-01-CU,Parcelpartially.Meadowland%20Overlay%20District .%20SFD.1094%20VT%20Rt.%20100.Mathew%20&%20Zoe%20Groom.pdf

check out this as well

http://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=5&Itemid=38&limit=5&limitstart=5

Thanks for those links. Let's see where this leaves us:

1) Day care continues to be off-site, thereby maintaining the current PITA process for the foreseeable future.

2) No bar/lounge space to make up for the inevitable loss of space in the VH lodge whenever it is torn down, thereby corwding the CR Pub right back to unacceptable levels on weekends and holidays.

3) No place for parents to sit around with little kids if they just want to relax while spouses or other loved ones ski. The cafeteria upstairs in GH isn't ideal for that (lots of people/activity, especially between 11-2) and you get snarky looks and comments from the staff at CR Pub if you try to do it there.

But hey, at least there will be a Discovery Center! As opposed to other recent decisions which have no practical impact on the customer experience, this represents one epic FAIL on the part of SB mgmt. They are reserving 4500 sq ft of space for new residential in a world in which they can't even sell the remaining 20% of units in Clay Brook.

Of course it will be great to have first class ski school and rental facilities, but the original concept with everything in one place seemed the right approach to me. Sounds like racing programs are going to be somewhere else to. I sure hope they aren't too far down the road to modify the plan. What the hell were they thinking?

[Tin Woodsman]

FWIW, I don't dispute the inconvenience factor relative to the ski school. Having the skischool and day school close to one another obviously be more convenient to the majority of visitors, but there is other criteria to consider. One reason to leave the Day school where it is might to not sever the strained and distant connection between the new and the old. Having the Day school there can only drive more activity in that direction that can only help Mountainside, Miguel's Mutha Stuffs etc.

We're up just about every weekend, and our 18 mo. old is at the Day School almost every weekend. Again, not factoring in the distance/convenience, I do like visiting the village. And I like that it is off the beaten path because it makes finding a parking spot for drop is not too bad.

We're on mountain so our getting kids to where they need to be is easier than the majority. And certainly easier than the infrequent visitor that doesn't know the ropes. Just .02.

PS They do a nice job there too.
If driving traffic to SB village was a concern, I don't understand why the future residential building would essentially have it's rear end facing the village, almost cutting off LP Village from SB Village. It has to be either an issue of money, or state regs. It's difficult for me to believe that the smart people running this mountain would have made this choice based on any other factor.

[madhavok]

Ok, I was using 10 seconds figuratively not literally. It’s not a big deal to drop the toddlers off then park the car or head to ski school drop off. In reality there is a limited and small amount of real estate at the base of Lincoln Peak. Personally I think it smart and forward looking to maintain this limited space for services that need to be on the mountain. While yes it maybe more convenient to have day care at the base, it can still operate successfully off mountain at its current location.

[win]

It was a very thoughtful decision. Microbears are being located here, so all the on-snow activities will be in one building. The cost of also including a regulated day-care facility also in this building is what drove the decision. We have a certain level of funding and that is going to dicatate what we can build. The existing building in the Village is where our year around day care will continue to be located. We can provide shuttle service as well.

In my humble opinion, this is going to be a great gateway into Sugarbush and families and others will find it convenient and very attractive.

You might all also know that very few resorts are going to be building anything in this climate!

[chuck]

Win - Thanks for elaborating on the details of the decision. Based on those circumstances, I can work with it.

[win]

We have rendering in both the GH Lodge and Timbers, and I would be pleased to go over them with anyone interested.

We are still in the permitting process with both the town and the State, but our plan is to begin the deconstrcution of the interim village in the first week of April and to have the buildings completed by December 15th. This is like the GH Lodge schedule. A lot of work but doable.

In April we will still be able to offer rental equipment and ski and ride lessons as the old village is taken apart, and we hope to be skiing and riding through April again. There will not be any impact on the slopes until after we close.

[thinksnow]

Yes, thanks for the details again, Win.

This string was getting quite tired with all the complaining. Hey, if you want to be a ski bum, why have kids in the first place? Guess you should have weighed that decision fully, rather than complain about how ski area development doesn't fit your particular needs.

[Yard Sale]

Win or anyone who may know:

I thought I read that there would be changes to begginner terrain. What are they going to be?

Thanks,

YS

[chuck]

Thinksnow - My wife and i are breeding the next generation of ski bums, to keep the industry populated....

[HowieT2]

It was a very thoughtful decision. Microbears are being located here, so all the on-snow activities will be in one building. The cost of also including a regulated day-care facility also in this building is what drove the decision. We have a certain level of funding and that is going to dicatate what we can build. The existing building in the Village is where our year around day care will continue to be located. We can provide shuttle service as well.

In my humble opinion, this is going to be a great gateway into Sugarbush and families and others will find it convenient and very attractive.

You might all also know that very few resorts are going to be building anything in this climate!

Thanks for your response. I for one, am pleasantly surprised, even shocked, that this project is proceeding in the current economic climate. It's welcome news.
However, as you yourself have previously stated, it is most important that this project be done right, and I think not including a day care center, is a mistake. Correct me if I'm wrong (I've never been inside the current facility), but how much space can a day care center require? 1000 SF? Is it really going to cost that much incrementally more to include it? My kids are 8 and 12 (and the factory is closed) so this has absolutely no impact on me personally, but I think it's important to the experience of new families who are the future purchasers of the condos.

Am I correct to understand that the project will include some sort of regrading that will eliminate the "stairs of death"? How will this work?

Tin- I thought the plan included a new cafeteria and retail space? wouldn't this provide a place to sit and hang out? or has that been eliminated in the redesign?

There are always compromises which must be made in the face of fiscal reality. You can't always get what you want. But there is no doubt that this project will be a vast improvement over the current facilities. Exciting. and think about all chatter we'll have on this topic once the season is over.

[Last Tracks]

Even though some of us might disagree about the details, you only have to go to Bolton to see what happens to a ski area that doesn't make the neccessary capital investments and is now caught in a downward spiral.

Win - i hope that we have another cinco de mayo party this year!

[Tin Woodsman]

It was a very thoughtful decision. Microbears are being located here, so all the on-snow activities will be in one building. The cost of also including a regulated day-care facility also in this building is what drove the decision. We have a certain level of funding and that is going to dictate what we can build. The existing building in the Village is where our year around day care will continue to be located. We can provide shuttle service as well.

In my humble opinion, this is going to be a great gateway into Sugarbush and families and others will find it convenient and very attractive.

You might all also know that very few resorts are going to be building anything in this climate!

Win -

As always, thanks for chiming in. With all due respect, I continue to be disappointed in this decision. It's great that the Microbears will be integrated into the base area, but dropping the tots over in the SB Village is a PITA, and I'm not sure how that can be disputed. Shuttle service does nothing to eliminate the underlying issue of multiple stops to begin the day. Sure it's not my money, and you are right that it's tough to get anything built in this climate (thank the lord for the EB-5 program), but this seems like a glaring omission to me. You are choosing to build a real estate discovery center that could easily be housed in a temporary facility. You are choosing to add 3 and 4 bedroom palaces above the kids ski school when you are having trouble selling the existing inventory in CB. This deficiency will now be locked in for a generation or three, as I would imagine that State regs would have required some sort of re-design, which is unfortunate.

Make no mistake, it will be great to have first class facilities that are thoughtfully designed and the beginnings of a village core. Yet, it seems like a lot of pieces will have to go missing - the village will be half-pregnant.

[Tin Woodsman]

Thanks for your response. I for one, am pleasantly surprised, even shocked, that this project is proceeding in the current economic climate. It's welcome news.

+1


However, as you yourself have previously stated, it is most important that this project be done right, and I think not including a day care center, is a mistake. Correct me if I'm wrong (I've never been inside the current facility), but how much space can a day care center require? 1000 SF? Is it really going to cost that much incrementally more to include it? My kids are 8 and 12 (and the factory is closed) so this has absolutely no impact on me personally, but I think it's important to the experience of new families who are the future purchasers of the condos.
I think the 1000-2000 SF is probably right for the current facility, at least the inside portion. I know state regs include some sort of mandate for outside play space. Apparently, the bureaucrats in Montpelier are unfamiliar with winters at 1500'. My guess is that is what my have done them in.



Am I correct to understand that the project will include some sort of regrading that will eliminate the "stairs of death"? How will this work?
I'm not Win, nor do I play him on TV, but going by the renderings, it looks like you're going to have sloped walkways on the lower half of the Village and in the plaza between the kids and adult ski school. Then two flights of 6-10 steps each (like those leading to Bravo) for the final push up to the GH lift loading area.


Tin- I thought the plan included a new cafeteria and retail space? wouldn't this provide a place to sit and hang out? or has that been eliminated in the redesign?
That was the plan for the original Family Center with 45,000 SF. Now you've got three separate structures comprising 36,000 SF, and they are jamming useless stuff in there (OK, not quite useless, but not an optimal use of space) like the real estate sales pitch booth. You also have the redundancy (3x the stairwells and HVAC etc..) that comes with three separate bldgs, so you'll have even less usable space than you would have though. Anyway, I haven't seen any mention of a new cafeteria for the kids ski school in the new plan, so I'm assuming that's out. I very much hope to be wrong - it would be good to have a place for non-skiing parents to just hang out instead of setting up camp in the GH lodge. The bar that had been discussed has almost certainly been eliminated. In tandem with the cessation of all talk about demolishing VH, the elimination of the renderings showing the VH lift loading at the base, and the new paint job, it looks like the plan is to simply keep VH open for the near to medium term. They really have no choice but to continue using it for the bar, racing, and weekend cafeteria overflow.

There are always compromises which must be made in the face of fiscal reality. You can't always get what you want. But there is no doubt that this project will be a vast improvement over the current facilities. Exciting. and think about all chatter we'll have on this topic once the season is over.[/quote]

[Yard Sale]

Tin-

I hope you know I appreciate that you voice your opinions of SB doings. I sense that in general your advocacy for your opinions isn't typically derived solely from self interest but for the greater good of Sugarbushers everywhere as you see it, but. . .

Your concern with the location of the day care makes me think that maybe. . .

Are we going to be hearing the pitter patter or rather the clunkety clunk of the little ski boots of powder hungry little Woodsmen in the near future?

Please forgive me for prying.

Respectfully,

YS

[win]

It is hard to address everything in enough detail to satisfy all, but I will try to answer the questions raised. As I said, I am happy to show people in person the renderings and walk through our thought process of many months.

First of all, the plan is the result of a lot of input from many on our team, from people who know the industry and from personal site visits to other areas. Yes, it would be ideal to include day care in one buidling. But the code really adds a significant amount of space and adds greatly to the cost. Given that day care is utilized by relatively few people, we decided that the existing facility while not perfect is more than adequate. Sugarbush actually had one of the first day care facilities in the ski business, and I beleive it has been in this location for many years. In speaking to quite a few mothers with young children, they would all agree that it would be ideal to have everything in one spot, but they were most concerned with having all the on snow kids programs in one building and felt that toddler care could remain where it is.

As far a grading goes, we will be doing it in two phases. There will be improvements with this phase and further ones in the next phase as we put in a new Village lift. This new lift will likely occur with the additional residences. Our goal is to create much better beginner terrain for both adults and children so their will be regrading near the children's ski school.

The entrance will do away with the temporary wooden steps and there will be a more graduated entrance into the Resort. Think of it as going up a seet of steps on a grade onto a plaza and then another set of stairs onto the mountain. We will also have quite a bit of snow melt. The Children's ski school entrance will be at the parking lot level and the rental building which will house tickets and a small coffee shop will be at the plaza level. There will also be public bathroom in this building. The second floor of this second building will be at snow level so once one rents skis or a board you exit onto snow near the GH lift. In the Children's building, micros are on the ground floor along with general check-in and Sugar and Minis are on the second floor. Both exit onto snow level. This building is designed to take advantage of the grade change so that kids ski on and off into the building.

As far as Tin's comment about the first guest service building, I did not like the aesthetic look of one large buidling in the main gateway in. There may be some efficiencies in one large building, but there are many other trade-offs in my opinion. As far as "useless stuff" that is not my opinion. Spending $10-$12 million on new facilities only makes sense if real estate sales can fund it, and if you are going to sell real estate you have to have appropriate facilities. Our current offices in CB will be utilized for other retail opportunities.

As far as the VH goes, it is staying at least for a while, and now that we have painted it, I am getting more of the opinion that we might must keep it and renovate it. That is not a firm decision yet, but that it where I am leaning today. A lot will depend on some engineering information.

One thing we also want all to know it that the access from Sugarbush Village will not be impaired with any grading change. People will ski be able to ski and and off and when the new lift is in, it will actually be more convenient for those that use is from the Village.

[Tin Woodsman]

Tin-

I hope you know I appreciate that you voice your opinions of SB doings. I sense that in general your advocacy for your opinions isn't typically derived solely from self interest but for the greater good of Sugarbushers everywhere as you see it, but. . .

Your concern with the location of the day care makes me think that maybe. . .

Are we going to be hearing the pitter patter or rather the clunkety clunk of the little ski boots of powder hungry little Woodsmen in the near future?

Please forgive me for prying.

Respectfully,

YS
YS -

No problem at all. In fact, you're too late. My little rockstar arrived 15 months ago...

http://i36.tinypic.com/2chl2bl.jpg
and my opinions on the drawbacks of the current (and future) set-up are based on personal experience. In fact, I don't think I've spoken with a single parent who doesn't view this set-up as a liability.

EDIT: I am an internet idiot and don't know how to resize this. Anyone? Bueller?

Edit 2: guess I'm only half as stupid as I thought I was.

[Tin Woodsman]

It is hard to address everything in enough detail to satisfy all, but I will try to answer the questions raised, and as I said I am happy to show people in person the renderings and walk through our thought process of many months.

First of all, the plan is the result of a lot of input from many on our team, from people know know the industry and from person site visits to other areas. Yes, it would be ideal to include day care in one buidling. But the code really adds a significant amount of space and adds greatly to the cost. Given that day care is utilized by relatively few people, we decided that the existing facility while not perfect is more than adequate. Sugarbush actually had one of the first day care facilities in the ski business, and I beleive it has been in this location for many years. In speaking to quite a few mothers will young children, they would all agree that it would be ideal to have everything in one spot, but they were most concerned with having all the on snow kids programs in one building and that toddler care could remain where it is.

As far a grading goes, we will be doing it in two phases. There will be improvement with this phase and further ones in the next phase as we put in a new Village lift. This new lift will likely occur with the additional residences. Our goal is to create much better beginner terrain for both adults and children so their will be regrading near the children's ski school.

One thing we also want all to know it that the access from Sugarbush Village will not be impaired with any grading change. People will ski be able to ski and and off and when the new lift is in, it will actually be more convenient for those that use is from the Village.

Win -

Again, thanks for your input here. Your presence here to set things straight on occasion is truly unique in the business. Can you elaborate on what kind of cost/space requirements the regulations would have foisted upon you had you chosen to integrate day care into the new bldg? Also, will there be a cafeteria in the kids ski school bldg for non-skiing parents and kids to simply hang out in, away from the hustle and bustle of the GH lodge?

[win]

I have got to run to prepare for tonight's DRB meeting. I don't have the exact day care requirement in my memory but I can get them. I think you responded before I fully edited by answers. Coffee shop in the Adult School/Rental building.

Now that I have seen "Little Tin" how could anyone get mad at a father of a kid who is "cuter than a bugs ear." Only Smootharc will undertand that phrase.

[Yard Sale]

Tin-

Congrats. Nice work. That's a cute looking future powder ripper you've got there.

I don't disagree with you regarding the PITA set up of having the day school over the bridge. Of my 4 kids, 3 have spent weekends over there. I'm on my last one (18 months old). I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. With the prospect of all 4 being on mountain looming in the not too distant future, I guess it's easier for me to be ok with the "necessary consession" SV has opted to make in this case because my day care callous is well developed and I'm almost done with that phase. Part of me is going to miss it. Clearly, I have too many children and my brain is mush.

[teleo]

One thing we also want all to know it that the access from Sugarbush Village will not be impaired with any grading change. People will ski be able to ski and and off and when the new lift is in, it will actually be more convenient for those that use is from the Village.

Thank you from one of the folks that access from Sugarbush Village. This has been a worry of a number of people over there.

Will access to the GH chair from SB village be left as is? Or are you referring to access to the double chair from the village?

IE, GH is currently a small skate over from the village, but if construction goes to high I could see that skate getting blocked.
Or requiring skins.

[HowieT2]

Win-thanks for taking the time to keep us internet weenies informed. I've heard how busy you are and your effort here is really appreciated.

The space dedicated to the RE sales presumably will be freed up when the RE is fully sold thereby opening up space for other things. Either way, very exciting news and I'm sure everyone here wishes SB the best of luck.

Tin-cute kid.

[Tin Woodsman]

One thing we also want all to know it that the access from Sugarbush Village will not be impaired with any grading change. People will ski be able to ski and and off and when the new lift is in, it will actually be more convenient for those that use is from the Village.

Thank you from one of the folks that access from Sugarbush Village. This has been a worry of a number of people over there.

Will access to the GH chair from SB village be left as is? Or are you referring to access to the double chair from the village?

IE, GH is currently a small skate over from the village, but if construction goes to high I could see that skate getting blocked.
Or requiring skins.
From the look of the renderings, it doesn't appear as though any of the buildings will intrude further onto the slope side than the temp village already is. At least not materially so.

[win]

Teleo,

The plan is to still be able to skate over from the Village to the GH lift. There will be some grading in between but you definitely will not need your skins. The glide to the new Village Chair will be shorter and easier.

One of our objectives is to improve the connectivity from Lincoln Peak Village to Sugarbush Village. I would really like to have hiking and biking paths in the non-snow months and recreational access (ie skiing and snowshoeing) in the snow months. We think it is really important that people from Clay Brook can get to Chez Henri, Miguels and Dino's Deli and that residents and guests in the Village condos can get to the slopes, CR Pub and Timbers for example. In the end we envision one interconnected community.

[sgottmann]

As always, thanks for chiming in. With all due respect, I continue to be disappointed in this decision. It's great that the Microbears will be integrated into the base area, but dropping the tots over in the SB Village is a PITA, and I'm not sure how that can be disputed. Shuttle service does nothing to eliminate the underlying issue of multiple stops to begin the day. Sure it's not my money, and you are right that it's tough to get anything built in this climate (thank the lord for the EB-5 program), but this seems like a glaring omission to me. You are choosing to build a real estate discovery center that could easily be housed in a temporary facility. You are choosing to add 3 and 4 bedroom palaces above the kids ski school when you are having trouble selling the existing inventory in CB. This deficiency will now be locked in for a generation or three, as I would imagine that State regs would have required some sort of re-design, which is unfortunate.

Make no mistake, it will be great to have first class facilities that are thoughtfully designed and the beginnings of a village core. Yet, it seems like a lot of pieces will have to go missing - the village will be half-pregnant.

I agree with Tin on this one. I have 3 kids, ages 7, 5 (miniblazers), and 3 (village double rider, ocassional day care) and have been throught the PITA that currently exists. Of course it is my own fault for having 3 rugrats so close in age but my real concern is not for me. The real issue is for guests that visit SB with little kids. Guests with day care kids that have stayed with me have a real hard time with the multiple drop offs and pick ups, especially when they are fired up for SB terrain and conditions. Unless you've done it, you don't know what a PITA it is --- way more than 10 seconds.

Win, I respect your attention to the matter but think you are underestimating this issue for beginning skiing families and the long term consequences. On the plus side, i think the 3 smaller buildings does present a much more attractive sense of scale at the mountain. The new facilities will be a substantial improvement and hopefully help tie the village to the mountain a little more. Despite my concerns, I look forward to the new development and wish you continued success.

Regards

[win]

Two follow on comments.

Yes, we still have some CB inventory left but that will move. We do see demand for three and four bedrooms and that is where we have a shortage, and we do see a demand for full ownership with the ability to custom furnish. As I have said, there is no ROI on new quality skier services buildings without some real estate development. Those are just the facts.

Someone also asked about bathrooms. There will be public bathrooms in the adult ski school/rental building so one will not have to go all the way to the Gate House.

There are also elevators in both buildings for HC access and other needs.

[HowieT2]

Teleo,

The plan is to still be able to skate over from the Village to the GH lift. There will be some grading in between but you definitely will not need your skins. The glide to the new Village Chair will be shorter and easier.

One of our objectives is to improve the connectivity from Lincoln Peak Village to Sugarbush Village. I would really like to have hiking and biking paths in the non-snow months and recreational access (ie skiing and snowshoeing) in the snow months. We think it is really important that people from Clay Brook can get to Chez Henri, Miguels and Dino's Deli and that residents and guests in the Village condos can get to the slopes, CR Pub and Timbers for example. In the end we envision one interconnected community.

SB village needs to be linked to the base by some sort path/walkway without going down and around the parking lots or through an active ski slope. Moving the village chair up the slope a bit would help.

[chuck]

From one who drives many miles to ski @ SB with four daughters, bathrooms near the parking lot are a HUGE plus!

[teleo]

Teleo,

The plan is to still be able to skate over from the Village to the GH lift. There will be some grading in between but you definitely will not need your skins. The glide to the new Village Chair will be shorter and easier.

One of our objectives is to improve the connectivity from Lincoln Peak Village to Sugarbush Village. I would really like to have hiking and biking paths in the non-snow months and recreational access (ie skiing and snowshoeing) in the snow months. We think it is really important that people from Clay Brook can get to Chez Henri, Miguels and Dino's Deli and that residents and guests in the Village condos can get to the slopes, CR Pub and Timbers for example. In the end we envision one interconnected community.

Excellent! I always thought Sugarbush would be best served by “one interconnected community” as most people have no clue and don’t care where the ownership lines are. (I know it can be hard to think that way when you’re planning one part of it. Glad to hear you are.)

Other related and random thoughts:
-I do like the multiple smaller buildings concept over two large buildings which never quite seemed like a “village” to me.
-Splitting daycare will be a PITA for some (not me, only 1 kid, and as someone else said the factory is closed)
Wondering if this could be mitigated somehow by creating an area to change, etc at/near the daycare so those with both could start their day at the daycare and ski to the other area? Anyone think that could be workable?
-New chair closer to SBV will be good, albeit maybe a little late for me. My little ski buddy just figured out how to get on and off the magic carpet by herself so that chair is in my immediate future.
-Anyone ever thought about a mini-golf area tucked in somewhere for the summer?

[MntMan4Bush]

Out of curiosity how many kids are in Daycare any given weekend? Weekday? I assume that holiday weekends are much more crowded.

[Tin Woodsman]

SB village needs to be linked to the base by some sort path/walkway without going down and around the parking lots or through an active ski slope. Moving the village chair up the slope a bit would help.
God yes. The current space between the two entities is so uninviting in all four seasons. You've got a muddy parking lot, a few dumpsters, some undeveloped scrubland and then another dirt parking lot before you approach civilization. I would hope that a more approachable and inviting landscape will be part of the plan, be it covered in snow or in the middle of summer.

[Tin Woodsman]

From one who drives many miles to ski @ SB with four daughters, bathrooms near the parking lot are a HUGE plus!
I would agree. However, it seems that the current plan is to have public bathrooms only in the adult ski school, which looks like it's going to be tucked away on the slope side of the plaza. You'd think that the most mileage would be derived from kid-friendly public bathrooms in the kids ski school. Sort of a part of the dropping off process if you're not staying within 15-20 minutes of the slopes (and sometimes even if you are).

[Tin Woodsman]

Other related and random thoughts:
-I do like the multiple smaller buildings concept over two large buildings which never quite seemed like a “village” to me.
I'm not as much of a fan, if only b/c, until I see otherwise, the bulk of CB will continue to stick out like a sore thumb. That said, now that I think about it a little more, it's hard to come to any firm conclusions until we understand the scale of the future residential bldg in phase 1C. If that's going to have 3 stories above grade as it appears, than that would really look nice, with large structures to the SW and NE surrounding three smaller buildings in the middle.



-Splitting daycare will be a PITA for some (not me, only 1 kid, and as someone else said the factory is closed)
Wondering if this could be mitigated somehow by creating an area to change, etc at/near the daycare so those with both could start their day at the daycare and ski to the other area? Anyone think that could be workable?
I'm just a guy, but this is a really, really good idea to me. Since Microbears are moving to the new facility, you'll have all that room on the right (north) side of the day care bldg to play with. Now perhaps the plan is to simply increase the day care space, but it would be really cool if there was a dedicated spot for parents of day care tots to begin and end their day if they so choose. If the grading, signage and landscpaing is improved, the skate over to the mtn wouldn't seem as much of an obstacle - they really are separate entities right now.

[mikec13]

I think this is a great idea but you will have to include parking...if a parent can park, drop off, change and then go ski I think it would work...a one car per family day care only parking program

[freeheel_skier]

Out of curiosity how many kids are in Daycare any given weekend? Weekday? I assume that holiday weekends are much more crowded.

I don't know how many but it is always busy when I have to drop my 16mo off. And as someone else said it is way more than ten seconds from day care and ski school. Dropping off at day care then driving over to drop off my daughter @ ski school then parking the car.....I don't know how my parents did it with 4 little b@stards! Hey it's part of life right? SO if you see someone in short sleves, sweating when it is 14 deg out sherpa'ing bags talking to himself....that would be me :shock:

I agree with sgottmann regarding the families who are not up on a regular basis. I can see how the multiple drop off thing can be a problem.

[HowieT2]

SB village needs to be linked to the base by some sort path/walkway without going down and around the parking lots or through an active ski slope. Moving the village chair up the slope a bit would help.
God yes. The current space between the two entities is so uninviting in all four seasons. You've got a muddy parking lot, a few dumpsters, some undeveloped scrubland and then another dirt parking lot before you approach civilization. I would hope that a more approachable and inviting landscape will be part of the plan, be it covered in snow or in the middle of summer.

This may be crazy, financially unattractive, and coming from the mind of a lawyer with no design skills or imagination, but it would be really cool if there was either a bridge or elevated path with tunnels that cut through to go from the plaza over Easy Rider towards SBV. What I am trying to describe is something that would not only provide a pathway, but also be a landmark and a great platform for parents to take photos/videos of the little ones coming down on their first runs.

[Jacksun]

My kids are 10 and 12, factory closed for me, too. Two comments:

1) Financial and code considerations are understandable, but competition for vacation/skiing dollars is no doubt fierce, and anything the resort can do to increase its user-friendliness would improve its competitive position. Remote day care, IMHO, is user-unfriendly and adds extra hassle for people with young children, especially those who have to go through the separation process twice, in two locations. Also, more difficult for those not staying at CB or in the village. Make it easier for people, and their experience will be more positive, and, they will make recommendations to their friends. Make it harder, and they'll think twice about coming back, never mind being positive about it with others. As they say, it's cheaper to retain an existing customer than it is to go get a new one or bring back one that's unhappy.

2) Very disappointed that food service in new facility will be minimal. GH can be a very negative experience, even on moderately busy weekends. Too many tables crammed too close together and way too much noise, jostling and jockeying for tables. Detracts from the overall ski experience. I thought (mistakenly) that the new facility would at least siphon off the Blazers and people in group lessons, and maybe families with younger kids, relieving the pressure on GH. I know, I know, Valley House is supposed is the safety valve...but, I don't believe that's the reality.

[Tin Woodsman]

This may be crazy, financially unattractive, and coming from the mind of a lawyer with no design skills or imagination, but it would be really cool if there was either a bridge or elevated path with tunnels that cut through to go from the plaza over Easy Rider towards SBV. What I am trying to describe is something that would not only provide a pathway, but also be a landmark and a great platform for parents to take photos/videos of the little ones coming down on their first runs.
I think a clear, wide path with benches and attractive overhead lighting would accomplish the same goal w/o the expense of tunnels/bridges etc..., except for the one over Hotel Brook.

[Yard Sale]

This conceptual path. Would it be maintained as a path in season? Would it be an obstacle to the skate over from the SBvillage?

Also, the new village lift, is it part of this off season's construction? Is it's location dramatically different from present?

[HowieT2]

This may be crazy, financially unattractive, and coming from the mind of a lawyer with no design skills or imagination, but it would be really cool if there was either a bridge or elevated path with tunnels that cut through to go from the plaza over Easy Rider towards SBV. What I am trying to describe is something that would not only provide a pathway, but also be a landmark and a great platform for parents to take photos/videos of the little ones coming down on their first runs.
I think a clear, wide path with benches and attractive overhead lighting would accomplish the same goal w/o the expense of tunnels/bridges etc..., except for the one over Hotel Brook.

Wouldn't the path have to cross Easy Rider?

[win]

Tunnel is not feasible for a least a couple of reasons. You have Hotel Brook between the Village and the Resort and secondly it would not be economically doable. There is a bridge over the streams and will likely be at least one more.

And, yes, once you are past where the new lift will be you will be on ski terrain so we would not want paths there in the winter. In the summer we will have walking and biking paths, but I am not in favor of paved paths there.

Jacksun, have you tried either Timbers, CR pub or Allyn's for lunch? Between these and GH cafeteria and VH there is plenty of room on most weekends. In the future, I would like to put another simple lodge in the plaza at the top of the GH lift. This is in our long-term master plan with the Forest Service, but is a few years out.

[HowieT2]

Tunnel is not feasible for a least a couple of reasons. You have Hotel Brook between the Village and the Resort and secondly it would not be economically doable. There is a bridge over the streams and will likely be at least one more.

And, yes, once you are past where the new lift will be you will be on ski terrain so we would not want paths there in the winter. In the summer we will have walking and biking paths, but I am not in favor of paved paths there.

I'm sorry I didn't appropriately describe what I'm talking about. I'm talking about something to go over Easy Rider. Either a bridge so skiers could go underneath or an elevated pathway with some tunnels going through it for skiers

[smootharc]

I think a clear, wide path with benches and attractive overhead lighting would accomplish the same goal w/o the expense of tunnels/bridges etc..., except for the one over Hotel Brook.

...the nice little skating rink lit at night. Waffles and cocoa on hand, along with lots of smiley faces ! While were at it, a bit of lit night time sledding would be popular, too !

[Tin Woodsman]

Tunnel is not feasible for a least a couple of reasons. You have Hotel Brook between the Village and the Resort and secondly it would not be economically doable. There is a bridge over the streams and will likely be at least one more.

And, yes, once you are past where the new lift will be you will be on ski terrain so we would not want paths there in the winter. In the summer we will have walking and biking paths, but I am not in favor of paved paths there.

I'm sorry I didn't appropriately describe what I'm talking about. I'm talking about something to go over Easy Rider. Either a bridge so skiers could go underneath or an elevated pathway with some tunnels going through it for skiers

I think that would get pretty expensive, especially in light of the width of that trail. What I'd love to see is a clear walking bath from the SBV down below the Village Chair loading area, and then up through into LPV. That should be the primary walking path during all four seasons, as it wouldn't cross any trails. They already have a pretty clear path to skate over from SBV via that bridge over Hotel Brook, though it would make sense to make that path a more clear and inviting connection via skis in the winter and via foot in the off-season.

[HowieT2]

I think a clear, wide path with benches and attractive overhead lighting would accomplish the same goal w/o the expense of tunnels/bridges etc..., except for the one over Hotel Brook.

...the nice little skating rink lit at night. Waffles and cocoa on hand, along with lots of smiley faces ! While were at it, a bit of lit night time sledding would be popular, too !

Agreed. skating and sledding/tubing would be very popular and bring traffic to the base at night.

Also, as previously stated I recognize my bridge idea (dream) is probably impractical, but it would be cool.
Ooh it's 3 Pm time to start preparing to leave the office.

[Tin Woodsman]

I think a clear, wide path with benches and attractive overhead lighting would accomplish the same goal w/o the expense of tunnels/bridges etc..., except for the one over Hotel Brook.

...the nice little skating rink lit at night. Waffles and cocoa on hand, along with lots of smiley faces ! While were at it, a bit of lit night time sledding would be popular, too !
That would be nice. Provide one thing that is sorely lacking at SB - a center of gravity. Anyway, at a minimum, something needs to be done about that wasteland looking area betwen the SBV parking lot and the future site of the residential bldg.

[daevious]

As far as the VH goes, it is staying at least for a while, and now that we have painted it, I am getting more of the opinion that we might must keep it and renovate it. That is not a firm decision yet, but that it where I am leaning today. A lot will depend on some engineering information.

That is awesome news! The Valley House Lodge is a classic piece of New England ski area history and architecture, well worth preserving if at all possible.

We were all set to mount a clandestine, grass-roots campaign to have it declared a historical landmark and placed on the US National Register of Historic Places, but we'll put that off for now. :wink:

[HowieT2]

As far as the VH goes, it is staying at least for a while, and now that we have painted it, I am getting more of the opinion that we might must keep it and renovate it. That is not a firm decision yet, but that it where I am leaning today. A lot will depend on some engineering information.

That is awesome news! The Valley House Lodge is a classic piece of New England ski area history and architecture, well worth preserving if at all possible.

We were all set to mount a clandestine, grass-roots campaign to have it declared a historical landmark and placed on the US National Register of Historic Places, but we'll put that off for now. :wink:

Not commenting on the building itself, but it's in the way of extending a new VH lift to the base

[Tin Woodsman]

As far as the VH goes, it is staying at least for a while, and now that we have painted it, I am getting more of the opinion that we might must keep it and renovate it. That is not a firm decision yet, but that it where I am leaning today. A lot will depend on some engineering information.

That is awesome news! The Valley House Lodge is a classic piece of New England ski area history and architecture, well worth preserving if at all possible.

We were all set to mount a clandestine, grass-roots campaign to have it declared a historical landmark and placed on the US National Register of Historic Places, but we'll put that off for now. :wink:

Not commenting on the building itself, but it's in the way of extending a new VH lift to the base
Howie -

It seems that the demolition of VH lodge and extension of the VH lift down to the base, which once were central parts of the plan (15 versions ago), are no longer part of the thinking, at least for the near term. Obviously you can't do the lift w/o removing the lodge, so they are either going to replace VH double in its current alignment, leave it as is, or wait for 5-6 years until the dust settles from the next phase or two of the LPV build out in order to determine what, if anything, is the ongoing need for that structure. One would think that some sort of magic carpet would be installed to help get people up there if it's going to be around for a while. That's not an easy walk for most flatlanders, present company excluded.

If we're really lucky, maybe they'll even have kiddie booster seats in the new buildings - not a single one exists anywhere in the GH lodge.

[HowieT2]

As far as the VH goes, it is staying at least for a while, and now that we have painted it, I am getting more of the opinion that we might must keep it and renovate it. That is not a firm decision yet, but that it where I am leaning today. A lot will depend on some engineering information.

That is awesome news! The Valley House Lodge is a classic piece of New England ski area history and architecture, well worth preserving if at all possible.

We were all set to mount a clandestine, grass-roots campaign to have it declared a historical landmark and placed on the US National Register of Historic Places, but we'll put that off for now. :wink:

Not commenting on the building itself, but it's in the way of extending a new VH lift to the base
Howie -

It seems that the demolition of VH lodge and extension of the VH lift down to the base, which once were central parts of the plan (15 versions ago), are no longer part of the thinking, at least for the near term. Obviously you can't do the lift w/o removing the lodge, so they are either going to replace VH double in its current alignment, leave it as is, or wait for 5-6 years until the dust settles from the next phase or two of the LPV build out in order to determine what, if anything, is the ongoing need for that structure. One would think that some sort of magic carpet would be installed to help get people up there if it's going to be around for a while. That's not an easy walk for most flatlanders, present company excluded.

If we're really lucky, maybe they'll even have kiddie booster seats in the new buildings - not a single one exists anywhere in the GH lodge.

I think that became obvious this summer with the new paint. Interesting how this is evolving. I wonder how much it's going to cost to rehab the VH lodge vs. the cost of adding the necessary space in the new buildings. Also, while the VH is beloved, if one of the main goals of the overall plan was to move the center of gravity north, this is inconsistent.

[Lostone]

Tin, have you asked? I have seen a kiddie booster in Gatehouse. It might have been privately owned, but I doubt it, as it was wood.

I saw it last weekend. Not denying it would be better to have more, but I think there are some (is one?)

More later on this subject (these subjects?) but I'm getting ready to ski. (Remember skiing? :wink: )

[Tin Woodsman]

Tin, have you asked? I have seen a kiddie booster in Gatehouse. It might have been privately owned, but I doubt it, as it was wood.

I saw it last weekend. Not denying it would be better to have more, but I think there are some (is one?)

Jim -

If that's the case, then it's a new addition. About a month ago, I came in with my grom while Mommy went out for a few runs. I looked long and hard upstairs but didn't find one. Went to Guest Services, where they told me there weren't any in the lodge, upstairs or down. They did offer to bring one over from Timbers, which was a really nice gesture and great customer service in a lousy situation. I demured and just dealt with it. Still, I was surprised and disappointed that this was the case. If there is now at least one booster seat in there, that's a good thing. There should be several, both upstairs and down.

More to the point, the GH lodge isn't a great place for non-skiing parents (permanently or for a few hours) with kiddies to hang out. Too much hustle and bustle on busy days with people clomping around with boots that could hurt a littlun if they get within range inadvertently. That's why it would really be great to have some sort of small lounge for parents with small kids in the new kids ski school bldg.. They'd have nothing to do but buy more F&B while waiting.

[Lostone]

Yeah, Mike, it might have been one from Timbers, as I don't know where they would store them in the Gatehouse. And I agree that I worry about seeing little, little ones in the Gatehouse, on a weekend. Some people have difficulty navigating in ski boots.



Back to this on a couple of the other points...

There are well used paths to the village, from the base area, during the non-skiing seasons. I don't think the lower one (with the bridge) is mowed often, but it is the most used.

The part of Easy Rider that adjoins Out Road is a wet area, much of the time. That is also my disc golf driving range. From that junction, I can barely reach the parking lot. (It is what I do on my way back from playing. 8) )

There is also a wood chip path above the parking lot, for when the lot is muddy.

I don't think Sugarbush can have parking for the daycare in that lot, as it is not Sugarbush property. I get that from the sign into the parking lot. I've been told that it is parking for the shops in the village, and overflow parking for some of the condos, when their lots are full.

I also, would like to see them have evening sledding in that area above the parking lot. It is one request I get a lot, but most are for sledding during the day, where I couldn't send them over there. People ski thru there, not just going to and from the village.

[Strat]

You guys are name dropping like crazy in here...

Would they definitely have to destroy the VH lodge for a new lift? Would it be ridiculous to leapfrog over the lodge with some tall towers? Maybe if it's that close to the base it would be tough...

[shadyjay]

I know - I'm confused with all these names too!

I guess it would be possible to keep the VH AND extend the VH lift down to the base. You'd have to get rid of the whole Mountain Operations and Mushroom sections of the lodge, and partially rearrange the line of the lift by moving it right. Without a massive regrading of the whole area, I'm not sure how you'd have the VH and the Bravo lift terminals side by side. There's also the actual Clay Brook in there too that would have to be bridged so the new lift would have to gain altitude pretty quick.

Once the VH lift is relocated to the base, I'm not sure how useful the VH lodge would be as it would be an isolated lodge up the hill. As it stands today, people have to go up to the Lodge to get to the lift, unless you hit it coming down Coffee Run, The Mall, etc. It'd be really interesting to see what the plans are for that whole area in the long term.

[sgottmann]

FWIW, here are my thoughts on this thread:

1. Agree that user friendly is critical for success. The most important demographic is the skiing family. The remote daycare in its present and planned conception fails to deliver on this front. Same goes for no public bathrooms in the kids buiding. Awhile back, there was a thread about the new ski school building and i think there were some great suggestions in it. I think visiting families would love a centrally located kids building -- pick up, drop off, dining, booting up, etc. in one location. With a central location for kids, including dining, you get the added benefit of freeing up space at the GH (more on that in a sec). You can also address special conerns for kids easier in one location -- safety, high chairs, food and the like. A coffee shop with windows and wireless for none skiing parents would be a plus as well. I doubt that this will work with the new configuration but that is my two cents.

2. GH lodge is a disaster on Saturdays, at least at the rush hours. This may be inevitable but could be improved to a degree. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the plastic tables and chairs need to go. Replace them with bench seating or something else. The building is just too small to be the primary or only option for many people. Timbers is great but just not what most skiing families are looking for. VH does not work for most either. If the kids programs were moved to the kids school build, additional, needed space would be created at GH. In a related matter, is there any reason why Beer is not served at the gatehouse lodge and is only sold at Castlerock Pub??? While I love the pub (and appreciate Tin's annex), most of the time I am grabbing a bite with kids and would love a beer or three to wash down my crushed PB&J or ham sandwhich. With the beer, I could tolerate the mad scramble for space a little more.

3. Other ameneties are needed as the Mountain grows into a family resort vs. skihill. Obviously, Win and his team are doing a tremendous job. Skiier visits seem to be significantly up this year. It seems to me that the BUSH is on the radar,especially with those from MA. I agree that a lighted skating pond with a hot choclate/coffee stand, and a place to congregate or other post or non-skiing activities are needed at the base. Any effort to tie in the village to the base is seriously needed to accomplish what the Win seems to be after -- a full service resort to compliment the Sugarbush awesome skiing and riding (I hope I am not way off base here). It seems to me that SB is trying to fill a particular niche in the market that requires a better integrated and more active core on the mountain. Accessibilty from the Village is critcal to create an integrated moutain and should not be overlooked. Historically, this has been difficult to accomplish but then again, others have not gone about in the manner and with the class, understanding and sensitivity as Win. Get the people to the mountain and keep them spending their money at the mountain. If enough people enjoy the product, there will be plenty to go around and support the other great establishments in the valley.

4. Any chance for some more tables by the Waffle Hut and perhaps another hut selling dogs or other food? It might be too crowded over there but it seems to me that the Waffle hut does a good business and could do more. Oh, yes and did I mention Beer in the GH lodge?

Anyway, on a more important note, let's hope that the snow gods shine down upon SB for this upcoming weekend and next week. It is a critical week for Mountain Ops.

[Go Figure]

[quote="sgottmann"]FWIW, here are my thoughts on this thread:



2. GH lodge is a disaster on Saturdays, at least at the rush hours. This may be inevitable but could be improved to a degree. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the plastic tables and chairs need to go. Replace them with bench seating or something else. The building is just too small to be the primary or only option for many people. Timbers is great but just not what most skiing families are looking for. VH does not work for most either. If the kids programs were moved to the kids school build, additional, needed space would be created at GH. In a related matter, is there any reason why Beer is not served at the gatehouse lodge and is only sold at Castlerock Pub??? While I love the pub (and appreciate Tin's annex), most of the time I am grabbing a bite with kids and would love a beer or three to wash down my crushed PB&J or ham sandwhich. With the beer, I could tolerate the mad scramble for space a little more.

Any ski area lodge is crowded at high noon. If You change your meal time perhaps there would be more room for you.

Benches are an unwise choice as people try to move them in or out with you on it.

I know it may be too hard for you but I walk downstairs, but a beer or three, and walk back up.

[sgottmann]

[/quote Any ski area lodge is crowded at high noon. If You change your meal time perhaps there would be more room for you.

Benches are an unwise choice as people try to move them in or out with you on it.

I know it may be too hard for you but I walk downstairs, but a beer or three, and walk back up.[/quote]

I agree with changing meal times and when it is up to me, I do. When you ski with children ages 3, 5, and 7 and usually have friends up with children of similar ages, it is difficult to change lunch time. However, the post was not intended to be only about me - just my observation. The point is that that GH will never be large enought to handle the crowded times and with added base development, the crowds better get bigger. As I result, i suggested that consideration be given to a more comperhensive children's building as way to alleviate the overcrowding. I also started the point by saying that overcrowding may be inevitable.

With respect to the question about beer, it was just a question as to why beer is not sold at the lodge cafeteria. It seems like a lost revenue opportunity. Why would you say that it is too hard for me to walk downstairs other than to be a PITA? Disagree with me fine but why act hostile?

[MntMan4Bush]

As someone without kids I would also put my vote towards having kids in another building. :wink: That is until I have kids then I'm totally against it.

[HowieT2]

[/quote Any ski area lodge is crowded at high noon. If You change your meal time perhaps there would be more room for you.

Benches are an unwise choice as people try to move them in or out with you on it.

I know it may be too hard for you but I walk downstairs, but a beer or three, and walk back up.

I agree with changing meal times and when it is up to me, I do. When you ski with children ages 3, 5, and 7 and usually have friends up with children of similar ages, it is difficult to change lunch time. However, the post was not intended to be only about me - just my observation. The point is that that GH will never be large enought to handle the crowded times and with added base development, the crowds better get bigger. As I result, i suggested that consideration be given to a more comperhensive children's building as way to alleviate the overcrowding. I also started the point by saying that overcrowding may be inevitable.

With respect to the question about beer, it was just a question as to why beer is not sold at the lodge cafeteria. It seems like a lost revenue opportunity. Why would you say that it is too hard for me to walk downstairs other than to be a PITA? Disagree with me fine but why act hostile?[/quote]

I think they had beer upstairs late last season in response to requests like yours. But, it didn't appear there was too much demand for it.

As for the kids eating lunch at the GH. The blazer groups come in at 11 or so for lunch. The discounts for the instructors expire at 11:30. So they are out of there by noon. While I agree it is crowded on saturdays, I don't think it is unbearable. It seems better then it was last year. That being said, having an alternative in one of the new buildings would be great.

[Yard Sale]

Much like dispersing the skiers/riders via lift/trail pods, alternative locations would be good management of base resources.

[sgottmann]

[

I think they had beer upstairs late last season in response to requests like yours. But, it didn't appear there was too much demand for it.

As for the kids eating lunch at the GH. The blazer groups come in at 11 or so for lunch. The discounts for the instructors expire at 11:30. So they are out of there by noon. While I agree it is crowded on saturdays, I don't think it is unbearable. It seems better then it was last year. That being said, having an alternative in one of the new buildings would be great.

Thanks for the info. If there is no demand, then so be it. I appreiciate the insight on the blazer routine and think that the policy makes great sense. Maybe I have caught the GH on some bad days. I prefer the Castlerock Pub but don't like taking up tables with my rugrats and for good reason, the menu is not designed for kids.

[Dawn Patrol]

On hill space is an EXTREMELY limited resource. Children in daycare do not require access to the hill. Driving 15 seconds past the base seems like a pretty small price to pay to ditch your children so you can ski. This has NO effect on the skiing experience, and will allow the development of facilities that will be more valuable ON hill.

[freeheel_skier]

On hill space is an EXTREMELY limited resource. Children in daycare do not require access to the hill. Driving 15 seconds past the base seems like a pretty small price to pay to ditch your children so you can ski. This has NO effect on the skiing experience, and will allow the development of facilities that will be more valuable ON hill.

Hey DP it aint 15 seconds. Maybe driving by the left hand turn for the main lot and driving up the hill to the day school is 15seconds. But the whole endeavor is time consuming. Half the time you have to park down hill in the mountainside lot because people use the daycare drop off parking as their spot for the day. Now I don't mind dropping off, getting back in the car and driving over to north. That is my usual routine. Lately I have a child in lessons, so we have been spending the day over @ Lincoln Peak.


The issue as I see it is for the people who are up maybe 1 or 2 weekends a year.....just my observation.

[sgottmann]

On hill space is an EXTREMELY limited resource. Children in daycare do not require access to the hill. Driving 15 seconds past the base seems like a pretty small price to pay to ditch your children so you can ski. This has NO effect on the skiing experience, and will allow the development of facilities that will be more valuable ON hill.

While you are correct that on hill sapce is limited and on mountain improvements are crucial, I agree with Freeheel that it is bigger deal than you portray it DP, especially for the coveted family staying at the mountain for the weekend.

Also, as i see it, the issue is not about additional on hill facilities but rather what the proper use of the new proposed facilites will be. Most of the suggestions have been pretty reasonable ideas to help improve a perceived problem -- multiple drop off/pick ups for the skiing family. FWIW, more residences may mean more cutters at super bravo and gatehouse.

[ski_resort_observer]

On hill space is an EXTREMELY limited resource. Children in daycare do not require access to the hill. Driving 15 seconds past the base seems like a pretty small price to pay to ditch your children so you can ski. This has NO effect on the skiing experience, and will allow the development of facilities that will be more valuable ON hill.

While you are correct that on hill sapce is limited and on mountain improvements are crucial, I agree with Freeheel that it is bigger deal than you portray it DP, especially for the coveted family staying at the mountain for the weekend.

Also, as i see it, the issue is not about additional on hill facilities but rather what the proper use of the new proposed facilites will be. Most of the suggestions have been pretty reasonable ideas to help improve a perceived problem -- multiple drop off/pick ups for the skiing family. FWIW, more residences may mean more cutters at super bravo and gatehouse.

coveted family? My dictionary - to be lusted after, envious of. Like some of the other threads I think this one is starting to go over the cliff as well.

FS - that stinks about people parking all day in the DC drop-off parking area. As you probably realize too many people when they see see a sign whether it's at LP or ME about dropping off/unloading they must say themselves....surely that sign doesn't pertain to me. :wink: I wonder how much worse it would be without our awesome friendly Ambassadors who try to direct them to a proper parking distination.

[freeheel_skier]

FS - that stinks about people parking all day in the DC drop-off parking area. As you probably realize too many people when they see see a sign whether it's at LP or ME about dropping off/unloading they must say themselves....surely that sign doesn't pertain to me. :wink: I wonder how much worse it would be without our awesome friendly Ambassadors who try to direct them to a proper parking distination.

It does stink. I know that this has been going on for years in that lot. More of a nuisance than anything. Not one car parked there has a car seat in it. Meaning not dropping off @ day school.

On a side note, I don't know how the ambassadors do it. I would go completely insane; "George (costanza) is getting angry!"!!! The drop off pick areas @ both mtns reminds me of an airport security check point (chaos). You have the ambassadors directing completly clueless sometimes :? rude patrons. These guys/gals do it smileing the whole time. I include myself as being clueless....

[sgottmann]

[quote="ski_resort_observer
coveted family? My dictionary - to be lusted after, envious of. Like some of the other threads I think this one is starting to go over the cliff as well. [/quote]

Maybe a little overboard but I think lusted after is a correct term.

[ski_resort_observer]

Maybe a little overboard but I think lusted after is a correct term.

:lol:

[Yard Sale]

George (costanza) is getting angry!"!!!

"These pretzels are making me THIRSTY!!!" G. Costanza :lol:

[shadyjay]

George (costanza) is getting angry!"!!!

"These pretzels are making me THIRSTY!!!" G. Costanza :lol:

"George likes his chicken spicey" :P G. Costanza

(we all need a good laugh to help us forget what it's currently doing outside)

[HowieT2]

George (costanza) is getting angry!"!!!

"These pretzels are making me THIRSTY!!!" G. Costanza :lol:

THESE pretzels are making me thirsty.

[teleo]

-Splitting daycare will be a PITA for some (not me, only 1 kid...

<rant>
I stand corrected. I try not to rant, try to think of it as constructive feedback, but the actual experience was not real good.

Put my 3 1/2 year old into micro bears last thurs. Wed we stopped into daycare in SBV to ask if we should bring her there, or the ski school tent in LPV. They thought the she would be at SBV. So we bring her to SBV in the AM, get her set up and then they say, I think micro's are heading out of LPV today. After a few phone calls, we pack her up and head to LPV, go through the whole routine again. We finally get her set up at LPV and leave not knowing if she will end up at LPV or SBV. Turns out she skis 3 hours in the AM, someone brings her to SBV for the PM, we call and know to pick her up at SBV. They filled us in on what she did in the PM but they did not know what she did in the AM because the instrutor was at LPV.

Now, I realize that 3 1/2 is a tough age because you never know if they are going to be up for skiing AM & PM or if they will be too tired to go out in the PM. Everyone was really nice, especially "Turtle" Tim who instructed my daughter in Dec, is always fantastic with the little ones when we see him around SBV, remembered her and settled her down at LPV when he walked in. But the split micro bear set-up provided a horrible customer experience. Specifically:

1. Going to 2 places took 2-3 times as long as it should have and was a PITA even though we are very familiar with the area and my daughter is used to walking between them. For a newbie, with a kid less comfortable with the scene, I think this could ruin a day.
2. Not knowing where you're kid is going to be is not a real good thought for any parent. I think some parents would have a big problem with it.
3. Not being able to talk to the instructor after you're kid has been in a ski lesson just doesn't seem right. (I caught up with Tim the next day because I know who he is and was around, but not everyone is going to be able to do that)

#1 above is easily fixed by better communication. By March I would expect things to be ironed out. Maybe this rant will get noticed and help for the rest of the season if the split set-up has to be used.

#2&3 above seem like structural problems with a split day set-up that I can't figure out how to make work except to run the whole day from 1 location. May I suggest always running micros our of SBV this year as is done on weekends and was done mid-week in Dec? Will this be fixed next year by having a supervised room for Micro's in the new childrens ski school building? Do VT daycare rules get in the way of that?

</rant>

OK, enough ranting, despite the above and lack of new powder, we had a great day and week at SB. My little ski buddy LOVES the chairlift and skiing "super fast"! I think I almost have her hooked!!!

lostone - sorry if I cut in front of you at the Village Double chair Sat and blew you off at the top. Sometimes I have my hands full with that little one.

skiladi - To bad the powder didn't materialize to hit the woods. Did you even bother coming back for Fri?

[skiladi]

skiladi - To bad the powder didn't materialize to hit the woods. Did you even bother coming back for Fri?

Yes , sorry we didn't connect but it was an odd day all around. We arrived about 9:30 from our stay @Hawk resort. Thursday was awesome weather and conditions @ Pokemo. Then the wind came but thankfully no R to the north. My son was already at the bush and yoyo'ed GH until we got there. He and my friend had the point discount so they were happy for that as things didn't get going too early. We were heading for ME when the Bravo opened from WH so we took a few runs at South and things were sticky so we jumped on the noon bus for ME and the conditions were much better.
Got back last night from 2 pretty good days. CR was surprisingly good with the new snow we got. I even hit the trees. You had to watch out for snakes. But I was all alone. What does that tell ya? :shock: