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Dawn Patrol
01-11-2009, 02:46 PM
Wow... If your intent was to insult all of the home/condo owners in the area, you've accomplished it..

Thank you Sugarbush, for making a 24 year verteran/homeowner of the ski area and the town feel like a second class citizen.... :?

boze
01-11-2009, 02:56 PM
Wow... If your intent was to insult all of the home/condo owners in the area, you've accomplished it..

Thank you Sugarbush, for making a 24 year verteran/homeowner of the ski area and the town feel like a second class citizen.... :?

Huh?? No idea to what you are referring...some 'policy' or statement perhaps?

Spartan82
01-11-2009, 03:24 PM
I wasn't there today, but I am assuming the patrol/ski school lift line has been expanded to Claybrook owners/renters.

Yard Sale
01-11-2009, 03:26 PM
Wow... If your intent was to insult all of the home/condo owners in the area, you've accomplished it..

Thank you Sugarbush, for making a 24 year verteran/homeowner of the ski area and the town feel like a second class citizen.... :?

Huh?? No idea to what you are referring...some 'policy' or statement perhaps?

He is likely referring to the fact that at the lift corrals Claybrook residents get to use the same express lane as the ski school and patrol. Personally, I don't really have a problem with it, someone pays large dollars some ammenities go along with it. Why someone would be so offended is beyond me. Whatever.

Hawk
01-11-2009, 03:57 PM
I am pretty sure that was always going to be the deal. Hey what do you expect for $250 Kand up quarter shares. I'm not realy that concerned myself. There aren't that many of them.

Besides I'm going to figue out a way to scam that scene anyway... :wink:

Yard Sale
01-11-2009, 05:03 PM
I am pretty sure that was always going to be the deal. Hey what do you expect for $250 Kand up quarter shares. I'm not realy that concerned myself. There aren't that many of them.

Besides I'm going to figue out a way to scam that scene anyway... :wink:

See Wedding Crashers Rule#10

freeheel_skier
01-11-2009, 06:22 PM
I saw that the other day. The line was empty :lol:

Speaking of "special" lines.......

Now what is the policy regarding the freestyle team using the ski patrol line @ ME Summit chair???? Is it ok or a no no? I was annoyed because it was early and somewhat of a nice pow day!

slaw
01-11-2009, 07:03 PM
Any way they can get it all sold is prob good for everybody. Not many people in the end. As for the Patrol, they are always welcome in front of me, no matter how much powder is up there. They do a great job.

What an awesome day. Had to me more than 6. CR skied great. Wood are open! (just my opinion)

shadyjay
01-11-2009, 07:12 PM
We got the official word a couple of weeks ago to let Clay Brook in the Ski School line. It shocked me at first. But most of them still stick to the main corral lines. Besides, there's a lot more ski schoolers than CB anyway.

And if you look at it this way, with CB owners, they are adding additional revenue to the mountain so that Phase II of the village project can go ahead. That'll mean new permanent buildings for the ALC and rentals, and best of all... they're going to get rid of the infamous stairway. So a little inconvenience to some maybe, but in the end, we all win.

Strat
01-11-2009, 08:23 PM
I wonder how they're actually going to eliminate the staircase. You still have to get from point A at parking lot elevation to point B at Gatehouse Lodge elevation... they can't have everyone riding an elevator. A magic carpet, perhaps?

Last Tracks
01-11-2009, 08:38 PM
When i lived in colorado Copper tried to institute a tiered ticket system. You could pay more to use an wait in a special line. Someone sued and the forrest service ruled it was not allowed...

As long as they don't put rich people's lines at castlerock.

Dawn Patrol
01-11-2009, 09:07 PM
Obviously I don't care if ski school cuts the line. There is a legit reason, and its accepted across the country. Clearly patrol needs to cut the line. But Claybrook residents need to ride the same lines as everyone else or make the 'I'm special and get to cut the line pass' available to anyone who wants to buy it. To say that some guy who bought 1/4 of a condo has contributed more to Sugarbush than someone who has owned a condo or land in the town for decades is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.....


Wait, we need more perks to sell Claybrook... Lets make Heaven's Gate Claybrook only...........

Last Tracks
01-11-2009, 09:12 PM
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" - George Orwell

Dawn Patrol
01-11-2009, 09:17 PM
Wow... If your intent was to insult all of the home/condo owners in the area, you've accomplished it..

Thank you Sugarbush, for making a 24 year verteran/homeowner of the ski area and the town feel like a second class citizen.... :?

Huh?? No idea to what you are referring...some 'policy' or statement perhaps?

He is likely referring to the fact that at the lift corrals Claybrook residents get to use the same express lane as the ski school and patrol. Personally, I don't really have a problem with it, someone pays large dollars some ammenities go along with it. Why someone would be so offended is beyond me. Whatever.

Maybe its because some people have spent 'large dollars' in the town and at the resort (perhaps for a loooooot longer than any claybrooker) and aren't extended the same offer? Maybe because now their 'amenities' suddenly effect everyone else? Give someone a hot tub, carry their skis to the lift for them, fine, doesn't effect me... Let them roll up and cut everyone on a pow day? THAT effects me.. ClassLESS...

Yard Sale
01-11-2009, 09:21 PM
Wow... If your intent was to insult all of the home/condo owners in the area, you've accomplished it..

Thank you Sugarbush, for making a 24 year verteran/homeowner of the ski area and the town feel like a second class citizen.... :?

Huh?? No idea to what you are referring...some 'policy' or statement perhaps?

He is likely referring to the fact that at the lift corrals Claybrook residents get to use the same express lane as the ski school and patrol. Personally, I don't really have a problem with it, someone pays large dollars some ammenities go along with it. Why someone would be so offended is beyond me. Whatever.

Maybe its because some people have spent 'large dollars' in the town and at the resort (perhaps for a loooooot longer than any claybrooker) and aren't extended the same offer? Maybe because now their 'amenities' suddenly effect everyone else? Give someone a hot tub, carry their skis to the lift for them, fine, doesn't effect me... Let them roll up and cut everyone on a pow day? THAT effects me.. ClassLESS...

Do you see it really having a big impact or is it the principle of the matter?

HowieT2
01-11-2009, 09:52 PM
I don't have a problem with it. The only time there is a wait at the super bravo is between 10 and 12, so I avoid it. The few claybrookers who use that line is insignificant. So it's a very small price to pay for the new GH lodge and CRP and hopefully, someday a new GS lodge.

Dawn Patrol
01-11-2009, 10:01 PM
I don't have a problem with it. The only time there is a wait at the super bravo is between 10 and 12, so I avoid it. The few claybrookers who use that line is insignificant. So it's a very small price to pay for the new GH lodge and CRP and hopefully, someday a new GS lodge.

Having a big red barn infront of the mountain is a small price to pay. Being prohibited from using the closest road to the hill because you aren't a claybrook resident is a small price to pay. Being cut at 830am on a pow day? Way to far. If it's all about raising money, open up the cutter pass to anyone who wants to buy it. Besides, you're acting like claybrook residents alone funded the GH, CRP etc. Right......

HowieT2
01-11-2009, 10:09 PM
I don't have a problem with it. The only time there is a wait at the super bravo is between 10 and 12, so I avoid it. The few claybrookers who use that line is insignificant. So it's a very small price to pay for the new GH lodge and CRP and hopefully, someday a new GS lodge.

Having a big red barn infront of the mountain is a small price to pay. Being prohibited from using the closest road to the hill because you aren't a claybrook resident is a small price to pay. Being cut at 830am on a pow day? Way to far. If it's all about raising money, open up the cutter pass to anyone who wants to buy it. Besides, you're acting like claybrook residents alone funded the GH, CRP etc. Right......

I may be wrong because I don't know the numbers, but I would think the GH lodge doesn't get built without claybrook.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 06:46 AM
I don't have a problem with it. The only time there is a wait at the super bravo is between 10 and 12, so I avoid it. The few claybrookers who use that line is insignificant. So it's a very small price to pay for the new GH lodge and CRP and hopefully, someday a new GS lodge.

Having a big red barn infront of the mountain is a small price to pay. Being prohibited from using the closest road to the hill because you aren't a claybrook resident is a small price to pay. Being cut at 830am on a pow day? Way to far. If it's all about raising money, open up the cutter pass to anyone who wants to buy it. Besides, you're acting like claybrook residents alone funded the GH, CRP etc. Right......

I may be wrong because I don't know the numbers, but I would think the GH lodge doesn't get built without claybrook.

I don't know the numbers either exactly, but you have the enormous expense of building and maintaining it, and its only 80% full. GH doesn't get built without all the season pass holders either I'm sure, but if gate house is what they contributed, give them a table in the lodge. They didn't build Super Bravo, the skiers of the last 15 years did.

Hawk
01-12-2009, 07:53 AM
So I guess that the Claybrookers loading the lift at 7:30am with Win would also fry your A$$. Again doesn't bother me. I've almost scammed that deal but got put down. :(

The simple fact is that they probably aren't going where I am going. Actually most people don't go where I am going. That’s why it's always untracked. :wink:

In my eyes it's not a matter of people's rights or entitlement. The whole "I have skied and lived here" argument doesn't get you anything at any ski resort. I guess I'm not that idealistic. It's a business after all. These people shelled out the cash and get the benefit. It's like Valet parking. I personally would never do it at a ski hill but some people are willing to spend the cash for the benefit. Calling the operators of this mountain classless for this policy is unrealistic. It has nothing to do with class.

Bundle up, it's going to be cold this week!

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 09:27 AM
So I guess that the Claybrookers loading the lift at 7:30am with Win would also fry your A$$. Again doesn't bother me. I've almost scammed that deal but got put down. :(

The simple fact is that they probably aren't going where I am going. Actually most people don't go where I am going. That’s why it's always untracked. :wink:

In my eyes it's not a matter of people's rights or entitlement. The whole "I have skied and lived here" argument doesn't get you anything at any ski resort. I guess I'm not that idealistic. It's a business after all. These people shelled out the cash and get the benefit. It's like Valet parking. I personally would never do it at a ski hill but some people are willing to spend the cash for the benefit. Calling the operators of this mountain classless for this policy is unrealistic. It has nothing to do with class.

Bundle up, it's going to be cold this week!

It's NOT like valet parking because YOU can't get it.

Waiting your turn in line is a basic human coutesy. People do it all over the place. The ski industry has made a couple widely accepted exceptions to the rule. This is not one of them.

I propose that people who are buying more at the grocery store be allowed to cut the line.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 09:34 AM
The whole "I have skied and lived here" argument doesn't get you anything at any ski resort. I guess I'm not that idealistic. It's a business after all. These people shelled out the cash and get the benefit.

These are two completely contrary statements. The first is correct. And the way it should be. The second is not. Because someone bought 1/4 of a condo share does not mean they 'shelled out' more cash than anyone else at the resort.

So this is your arguement, a group has skied and lived here and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars at the ski resort alone (and didn't get a condo or ski valet), that doesn't mean shit (as it is everywhere), but, a person bought 1/4 of a condo, not just any condo at the resort mind you, and they shelled out the cash, they get the benefit... Seems a bit conflicting...

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Apparently Be Better Here should have said, You're Better if You Own Claybrook...

madhavok
01-12-2009, 09:36 AM
I wouldn't expect this policy from Sugarbush management. Is this verified as official policy? As you pointed out, ski patrol cuts the line for obvious reasons, ski lessons; ok they are paying for a service that requires slope time. What is the need for Claybrook owners to cut the line? Why are they entitled to this privilege? They own mountain side real estate, and that’s it. They didn’t buy the slopes or the chair lifts besides I have a lift ticket too, and I’m entitled to ride up the chair lift between 8am and 4pm just as much as they are. I’m not cool with that, and I’m not going to be happy when Claybrook owners are skiing laps while I’m standing in lines this Washington’s week. Why would Sugarbush implement a policy that just puts you in your place and is quite frankly just discrimination?

As for the mention that Claybrook owners paid for the new Gate House lodge, CRP & Timbers, well the average Joe should just stop spending our dollars there. No more lunch at the Gate House, no more beer in the pub and no more dinner at Timbers. Spread the word to your friends and family; write a letter to the Valley reporter. If the dollars drop, the “special” line policy will soon follow.

Give an inch take a mile.

arc1
01-12-2009, 09:49 AM
I know it's only a few people, but it feels sooooo sleazy....

Yard Sale
01-12-2009, 10:17 AM
The economics of Clatbrook and philosophies of fairness are irrelevent.

The benefits and ammenities of ownership at Claybrook are available to anyone who is willing and able to pay for them, so to say that some are unduly receiving preferencial treatment is totally off base. Your basic human rights have not been compromised.

To state that you have been a long time Valley visitor and skiier therefore the valley and the mountain owe you some type of fidelity as opposed to some Johnny come lately who has recently invested big dollars is ridonkulous. That argument has no merrit. Unless of course you have some type of long term binding agreement with the valley and or the mountain, the terms of use are subject to change at the very least season to season.

As for your grocery store analogy: I would shop there when I have to by a lot of groceries and not when I don't.

Bottom Line: You pay for it, you get it. You don't pay. you don't it.

I can understand that you don't like it. But I don't see the impact being that great. That searing heat your feeling under your helmet is envy messin' with your head. Your on the cusp of a sweet powder day and your gonna focus on crap you have no control over! Shake it off man and ski your onions off. Being pissed isn't going to change a thing, and skiing angry never solved anything especially on a powderday.

You might not be Claybrook material, but take heart, if your near the front of the line on a powder day, then you're certainly not a second class citizen. Unless of course your ahead of me. :P

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 10:27 AM
The economics of Clatbrook and philosophies of fairness are irrelevent.

The benefits and ammenities of ownership at Claybrook are available to anyone who is willing and able to pay for them, so to say that some are unduly receiving preferencial treatment is totally off base. Your basic human rights have not been compromised.

To state that you have been a long time Valley visitor and skiier therefore the valley and the mountain owe you some type of fidelity as opposed to some Johnny come lately who has recently invested big dollars is ridonkulous. That argument has no merrit. Unless of course you have some type of long term binding agreement with the valley and or the mountain, the terms of use are subject to change at the very least season to season.

As for your grocery store analogy: I would shop there when I have to by a lot of groceries and not when I don't.

Bottom Line: You pay for it, you get it. You don't pay. you don't it.

I can understand that you don't like it. But I don't see the impact being that great. That searing heat your feeling under your helmet is envy messin' with your head. Your on the cusp of a sweet powder day and your gonna focus on crap you have no control over! Shake it off man and ski your onions off. Being pissed isn't going to change a thing, and skiing angry never solved anything especially on a powderday.

You might not be Claybrook material, but take heart, if your near the front of the line on a powder day, then you're certainly not a second class citizen. Unless of course your ahead of me. :P

Actually no, you are completely wrong. People started saying that Claybrookers paid for stuff and that gives them the RIGHT to cut us. My point is the amount they paid is quite probably less than many, many other people on the mountain, we should all board equally. People can buy all the ameneties they want, go ahead. When I bought my season pass, nowhere did it say, oh by the way, you are a second class citizen unless you own claybrook.

This is not silly crap, its a sign of the way Sugarbush views us. Apparently I'm not welcome here.. No worries, Stowe is only 29 miles up the road...

Edit: As far as my grocery store goes, I don't shop at places that I think treat people unfairly.

MntMan4Bush
01-12-2009, 10:32 AM
Does it matter if it's actual impact or perceived. If people start feeling slighted it changes their perception of the mountain and it's offerings. How many Claybrookers are there? I'm guessing it doesn't represent a large volume, but on a busy day if ski school comes down and a big group of Claybrook owners at he same time that could equal a decent chunk of time. Let's not even explore the possibility of it happening on a powder day when every early second counts.

OK. So I have to ask. How much does it cost now to feel special at SB? I thought SB was the customer service mountain. Set above the rest. What's the price tag? Is it a quarter share? If I buy a full share do I get to cut the 1/4 shares. How about the fact that I'm a season pass holder? Does it allow me some special privilege I'm not aware of besides shelling out money to SB. Tell me how much more I need to pay to be in the elite crowd? We act like Claybrook owners are our saviors and we should worship the money they bring in. That we need to lavish them with privileges. They didn't buy a principality. They bought a condo. The privilege they get is the same as any property owner. It's an investment.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 10:36 AM
This is not a matter of pay to play because the cutter pass isn't available to everyone who wants to buy one. I know, I know, all the sugarbush apologists are going to say, you can buy a CONDO! Well to that I say hmm... I've been investing in this area since long before Claybrook was built, are you saying I have to sell my house and buy a condo to get the same treatment?????

Claybrook paid for the GH... Please... By that logic, non-claybrookers paid for claybrook to be built. If they want special ameneties, claybrookers can build their own chairlift.

Last Tracks
01-12-2009, 10:36 AM
more on Copper Mtn's Beeline program.. this is from 2004... the program was approved by the forest srvc and is still in use.. anyone can participate at any time. season pass holders and day ticket holders can upgrade for $20 /day.


Beeliners skip over proletariat
By Kristin Bjornsen

Woman or man, skier or snowboarder, duct-taped telemarker or rouged-and-mascara’d snow bunny — all have been equal in the lift line.

No longer. Through the Beeline Advantage program at Copper Mountain, those who lodge at Copper or pay $124 for a lift ticket can cut to the front of lift lines.

The Beeline has stirred up a buzz among those who contend it violates guidelines for how public land can be used. Because Copper leases the mountain from the U.S. Forest Service, the resort must give equal access to the public or risk losing its Special Use Permit. But some feel the Beeline excludes segments of the population.

“You’re creating two classes of citizens: those who can afford to cut in line and those who can’t,” said Scott Silver, executive director of the nonprofit Wild Wilderness. “Sure, money buys privilege, but the one place it shouldn’t is on public land.”

Initially, regional Forest Service officials agreed. When Copper ran pilot programs of the Beeline during the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons, officials said the resort violated its Special Use Permit. A Forest Service report stated the program was “operated, managed and marketed to effectively exclude members of the public from participating while at the same time providing a select group with special access privileges to the public land.”

But the report didn’t settle the issue.

“Copper was pushing pretty hard for it,” said Ed Ryberg, the Forest Service’s regional ski area program coordinator. “We knew they’d continue to push no matter what decision was made locally.”

So, although local Forest Service employees normally set local policy, the chief’s office in Washington, D.C., decided the Beeline’s fate, and officials there gave it a green light.

Steve Paccagnan, vice-president and general manager of Copper, refused to say whether Copper Mountain lobbied in Washington for the program, but Dillon District Ranger Rick Newtown (the aforementioned local guy) said the chief’s office approved the program because it involved pricing issues, not access.

“The agency decided pricing structures at ski areas shouldn’t involve government but should be market driven,” Newton said.

Last spring marked the Beeline’s first officially approved season, and Paccagnan said guest response was positive.

“It’s an added value for our guests, and they’ve embraced it with overwhelming success,” he said.

Last season, Copper sold 88,262 Beeline passes, and almost all of those were to lodging guests, with whom the passes are most popular, Paccagnan said.

Other people are less thrilled, however. Silver says the Beeline is another nail in the coffin toward privatizing public lands.

“Wallace Stegner called National Parks ‘Absolutely American, absolutely democratic,’” Silver said. “National Forests are the same way. They’re where democracy and equality should prevail.”

For Paccagnan, democracy does prevail because anyone can buy the special passes. He says Copper supplements the pricey Beeline tickets with budget-friendly season passes for $259. “It’s the customer’s choice of what product they want to buy,” Paccagnan said.

Silver contends most people can’t afford the $124 passes. “It’s prohibitively expensive,” he said.

Rachel Hartman, a snowboard instructor at Copper, isn’t troubled by the idea of unequal access. “If you have more money, you have more access to stuff. That’s the way a capitalistic society works,” Hartman said.

Certainly, being able to buy special luxuries with money is not new. First-class airplane tickets have been around for years, and visitors to Disneyworld can pay to bypass lines. The Beeline differs from these programs in a crucial way, however, because it involves access to public land.

Despite some people’s ire over the Beeline, Hartman says she never has seen people irritated about it. But that may be because people confuse Beeliners bypassing lines with ski-school students, who are also allowed to jump ahead.

For Colorado wild land and fire dispatcher Woody Hesselbarth, the Beeline is a chilling portent for public lands in America. He says the natural corollary of the Beeline is a national forest system in which access is based on who pays more money: The campsite near the creek costs more than the one near the latrine, hunters who buy pricier permits receive exclusive rights to prime gaming areas, and ski runs with the most powder are reserved for the highest bidders.

“Where does it stop?” he asks. “If a tiered system is what they want to do at a private resort like Deer Valley, that’s fine. It’s their sand bucket. But this land is entrusted to Copper by the American people. What the Forest Service said in acquiescing is that we’re abandoning the public trust.”

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 10:44 AM
Based on the Copper Beeline pass, seems like this could be class-action lawsuit material.

madhavok
01-12-2009, 10:57 AM
Ripped from the Claybrook website.


Ownership of a Clay Brook residence will afford you privileges
365 days a year comparable with a private country club experience

I have to admit it, I didn't see this coming. How can you give out country club privileges at a resort that’s open to the public? If this was a private mountain resort and all expenses were financed by the members, fine. But that’s not the case here. Sure Claybrook owners may have paid top dollar for some primo real estate but we all help finance the operation of this mountain. That means we are all help paying for the preferential treatment of Claybrook owners.


We gave an inch and apparently Claybrook took 2 miles. What’s next the privatization of Sugarbush? We need to open our eyes and make a stand before it’s too late.

That’s more than enough disheartening news for me today. Later.

summitchallenger
01-12-2009, 11:33 AM
No problem with that. It will mean that I will not see the same scene I saw a few weeks back when a Claybrook owner rolled out of bed at around 10:30, walked over with her skis, threw them down in front of everyone at the corral for Gatehouse, and blocked us from getting into the corral so she could step into her skis. Now she can do it in her own line. I say thumbs up to efficiency!!! :lol:

ScoobySnack
01-12-2009, 12:08 PM
This is very disappointing to say the least. Perhaps I am being naive, but I've always considered skiing an egalitarian interest, where we are all considered equals on the hill. Allowing Claybrook owners/renters an option to cut on the mountain is a bit of a slap to that theory. This is Sugarbush mountain, not Claybrook Mountain.

Now after the skiing is done, sure - some people can choose to stay at a nicer hotel/condo than others or put their skis on top of a Range Rover instead of a Civic, and etc., but on the hill we all should have equal access. It just goes against what skiing is all about to allow this program in my opinion.

I have been visiting SB for a while, have purchased season passes for the past few years and have introduced many friends and family to SB, who otherwise would not have considered any mountain other than Killington and Stowe. They are now regulars at SB. Should I expect special cutline priviledges due to this? No, I shouldn't - because that is not what skiing is about.

Hawk
01-12-2009, 01:04 PM
The whole "I have skied and lived here" argument doesn't get you anything at any ski resort. I guess I'm not that idealistic. It's a business after all. These people shelled out the cash and get the benefit.

These are two completely contrary statements. The first is correct. And the way it should be. The second is not. Because someone bought 1/4 of a condo share does not mean they 'shelled out' more cash than anyone else at the resort.

So this is your arguement, a group has skied and lived here and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars at the ski resort alone (and didn't get a condo or ski valet), that doesn't mean shit (as it is everywhere), but, a person bought 1/4 of a condo, not just any condo at the resort mind you, and they shelled out the cash, they get the benefit... Seems a bit conflicting...

No it's not conflicting. You just misunderstood what I was saying. I think your argument was that since you have lived and skied and paid for services at the mountain, how dare anybody cut you in lift line on a powder day. This also somehow makes you a second class citizen. My point is that your years and dollars do not give you tenure. You are not entitled because of your long standing relationship with the mountain. You are just like me. We pay for a pass that gives us 8 to 4 in regular lines. Yes Claybrookers live here also just like you. The difference is that they paid for a condo and as part of the deal they get to cut lines and can get on the lift early. This is not something they came up with this weekend. This was a planned benefit of ownership determined by SV from the get go. I think the difference between you and me is that you let it bother you. SV owns the mountain, they can do whatever they want. These people are a minimal impact and for the most part do not ski where I go.

I think your problem in general is with people rich enough to buy their way. Correct? I hate to tell you but it's this way all over. What I really irks me is those damn Bush Pilots cutting the line with their bigs smiles. There oughta be a law........ :wink:

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 01:16 PM
The whole "I have skied and lived here" argument doesn't get you anything at any ski resort. I guess I'm not that idealistic. It's a business after all. These people shelled out the cash and get the benefit.

These are two completely contrary statements. The first is correct. And the way it should be. The second is not. Because someone bought 1/4 of a condo share does not mean they 'shelled out' more cash than anyone else at the resort.

So this is your arguement, a group has skied and lived here and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars at the ski resort alone (and didn't get a condo or ski valet), that doesn't mean shit (as it is everywhere), but, a person bought 1/4 of a condo, not just any condo at the resort mind you, and they shelled out the cash, they get the benefit... Seems a bit conflicting...

No it's not conflicting. You just misunderstood what I was saying. I think your argument was that since you have lived and skied and paid for services at the mountain, how dare anybody cut you in lift line on a powder day. This also somehow makes you a second class citizen. My point is that your years and dollars do not give you tenure. You are not entitled because of your long standing relationship with the mountain. You are just like me. We pay for a pass that gives us 8 to 4 in regular lines. Yes Claybrookers live here also just like you. The difference is that they paid for a condo and as part of the deal they get to cut lines and can get on the lift early. This is not something they came up with this weekend. This was a planned benefit of ownership determined by SV from the get go. I think the difference between you and me is that you let it bother you. SV owns the mountain, they can do whatever they want. These people are a minimal impact and for the most part do not ski where I go.

I think your problem in general is with people rich enough to buy their way. Correct? I hate to tell you but it's this way all over. What I really irks me is those damn Bush Pilots cutting the line with their bigs smiles. There oughta be a law........ :wink:

Again, you entirely miss the point. It's not 'how dare anyone cut me'... It's, hey we're all equal out here, wouldn't it be ridiculous if I thought I deserved the right to cut people because I've been here for a long ass time?

It's as mtnman said hmm.. How much does it cost to be special at Sugarbush?

If this is part of the 'deal;, then they just devalued my season pass...

SV does not own the mountain, the tax payers do.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 01:18 PM
Next years slogan: Sugarbush, where all we care about is how much you pay.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 01:22 PM
If it's such a little deal with no impact they shouldn't offer it.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 01:26 PM
Seriously I can't imagine the kind of douche you'd have to be to think, I bought a condo, I get to cut everyone in line...

Hawk
01-12-2009, 01:27 PM
You are obviously very fired up about this. I have a suggestion and I am not being wise. Go talk to Win. He is always around. I have always found him to be a reasonable person.

Personally I have no issue with the policy but see what you can do.

summitchallenger
01-12-2009, 01:35 PM
+1 for the idea of having a private discussion with Win or someone in management.

gone.skiing
01-12-2009, 01:45 PM
It is all pay as you go... What is the drama all about? Sign up for seasonal program, take a group lesson, take a private lesson, go up early on the cat. How many more ways do you need to be able to cut the lines?

Better yet, go ski with John Egan for a day and then you won't worry about waiting extra couple of minutes in the line and will remember what makes Sugarbush special.

summitchallenger
01-12-2009, 01:49 PM
It is all pay as you go... What is the drama all about? Sign up for seasonal program, take a group lesson, take a private lesson, go up early on the cat. How many more ways do you need to be able to cut the lines?

Better yet, go ski with John Egan for a day and then you won't worry about waiting extra couple of minutes in the line and will remember what makes Sugarbush special.

It was cool to see John at C-Rock on Saturday Morning. FWIW he stood there in line with everyone else....

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 01:54 PM
There is a HUGE difference. All of those programs you mentioned, except for the cat which isn't cutting the line at all, are ski school programs and as an industry it has been accepted to allow them to cut the line.

Link to Sugarbush's principles.

http://www.sugarbush.com/about-vermont-resort/future-plans





Our Principles

1). Our (Claybrook owning) guest’s interest comes first

2). Respect for [Claybrook owning] individuals

3). Teamwork

4). Community involvement (for Claybrook only)

5). Fiscal responsibility

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 01:57 PM
Next year's trailmap, having still not sold out Claybrook, extra perks were needed...


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r276/dawnpatrolvt/jan10/trailmap0910.jpg

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 01:59 PM
And I don't think a private discussion is in order, since the way I found out I was worth less than claybrook owners not by letter or private discussion but by having them cruise right past the line.

gone.skiing
01-12-2009, 02:01 PM
Now you are taking it way too far and just sound pathetic. Did you miss powder runs this weekend? I did not see anyone at the Bravo at 4PM yesterday, even the coral was gone: no claybrook line, no ski school line. Where were you?

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 02:06 PM
Now you are taking it way too far and just sound pathetic. Did you miss powder runs this weekend? I did not see anyone at the Bravo at 4PM yesterday, even the coral was gone: no claybrook line, no ski school line. Where were you?

Ah yes those coveted 4pm runs... Much more important than first tracks....

Pathetic huh? Thanks. Least I don't cut people in line...

HowieT2
01-12-2009, 02:08 PM
Seriously I can't imagine the kind of douche you'd have to be to think, I bought a condo, I get to cut everyone in line...

Don't blame the claybrookers for something that was given to them as part of the marketing. It was SV's decision and even though IMHO it's no big deal, you obviously have a problem with it, so direct your ire at SV.
Has anyone ever seen anyone utilizing this?

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 02:10 PM
Yup I have seen it, and I can blame both, SV for offering it and the people who use. SV didn't make them cut the line....

HowieT2
01-12-2009, 02:13 PM
Yup I have seen it, and I can blame both, SV for offering it and the people who use. SV didn't make them cut the line....

How do you know the cutters were from claybrook?? do they wear special clothes or something (I own a fractional share in claybrook so get out my freakin way-T-shirts perhaps) :P

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Yup I have seen it, and I can blame both, SV for offering it and the people who use. SV didn't make them cut the line....

How do you know the cutters were from claybrook?? do they wear special clothes or something (I own a fractional share in claybrook so get out my freakin way-T-shirts perhaps) :P

They have a special Claybrook Cutter pass (no joke, I spoke with one)...

ScoobySnack
01-12-2009, 02:20 PM
Dawn, I think you have backers here for your basic premise, and I think this is an important issue as to the character of Sugarbush, but the hyperbole is probably not being helpful, and probably doing the exact opposite.
Win and SB mgmt reads these boards and comments on the issues, which is fantastic and does speak to the fact that they do care about what the average and core SB visitors think. They have also acted on suggestions that have come from this very board (it seems that way, at least). This is probably not the case at many other large mountain resorts, and this is deserving of respect. The Claybrook line issue can be addressed with SB mgmt, very likely within this forum. There is no need for the sarcasm (though it did make me laugh), as it will not lead to a rational discussion on the issue.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 02:25 PM
Dawn, I think you have backers here for your basic premise, and I think this is an important issue as to the character of Sugarbush, but the hyperbole is probably not being helpful, and probably doing the exact opposite.
Win and SB mgmt reads these boards and comments on the issues, which is fantastic and does speak to the fact that they do care about what the average and core SB visitors think. They have also acted on suggestions that have come from this very board (it seems that way, at least). This is probably not the case at many other large mountain resorts, and this is deserving of respect. The Claybrook line issue can be addressed with SB mgmt, very likely within this forum. There is no need for the sarcasm (though it did make me laugh), as it will not lead to a rational discussion on the issue.

You're absolutely right... Not to mention I made a big mistake making 'Claybrook Only' the same color as 'Flat Out'... That'd be a shocker for some poor novice heading up to the Church....

HowieT2
01-12-2009, 02:26 PM
Yup I have seen it, and I can blame both, SV for offering it and the people who use. SV didn't make them cut the line....

How do you know the cutters were from claybrook?? do they wear special clothes or something (I own a fractional share in claybrook so get out my freakin way-T-shirts perhaps) :P

They have a special Claybrook Cutter pass (no joke, I spoke with one)...

You spoke to a claybrooker? do they have horns?

seriously, I had some friends up last season who I knew going in were Stratton type people (PE guy) and we had them stay at claybrook. They were looking for and expecting even more service and pampering then what is offered. My point is that to attract the type of buyer that claybrook is marketing for, certain extra benefits must be provided. I hope that the rest of the units get sold so we can all start arguing over the next phase where the residential units will be more mid market.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Yup I have seen it, and I can blame both, SV for offering it and the people who use. SV didn't make them cut the line....

How do you know the cutters were from claybrook?? do they wear special clothes or something (I own a fractional share in claybrook so get out my freakin way-T-shirts perhaps) :P

They have a special Claybrook Cutter pass (no joke, I spoke with one)...

You spoke to a claybrooker? do they have horns?

seriously, I had some friends up last season who I knew going in were Stratton type people (PE guy) and we had them stay at claybrook. They were looking for and expecting even more service and pampering then what is offered. My point is that to attract the type of buyer that claybrook is marketing for, certain extra benefits must be provided. I hope that the rest of the units get sold so we can all start arguing over the next phase where the residential units will be more mid market.

They can buy all the pampering they want. Hell if Claybrook came with free Lincoln Limo rides I wouldn't care, but waiting your turn in line is basic human coutesy.....

Edit: No they didn't have horns, they had fancy one pieces and carving skis...

Tin Woodsman
01-12-2009, 02:29 PM
I think this policy is unfortunate, though in reality its perceived impact will likely be far more than its actual impact given how many beds there are at CB. Is this privilege extended to people who rent CB units, friends of CB unit owners, or just the owners themselves?

Regardless, as dunderheaded policies to appeal to CB owners go, this is much lower on the list than the Spring skiing at LP policy. That has a much more substantial impact on your skiing season (by shortening it a month) but is more under the radar. At the end of the day, they need to sell those remaining 20% of shares if the much-needed build-out of the LP Village is to be continued.

Tin Woodsman
01-12-2009, 02:34 PM
I hope that the rest of the units get sold so we can all start arguing over the next phase where the residential units will be more mid market.

Is this fact or conjecture? I hadn't heard that, and the new renderings of the units above the Children's Center don't look any thing like mid-market residences - only two per floor with a lot of space.

Yard Sale
01-12-2009, 02:37 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as "mid-market" certainly not in that location.

HowieT2
01-12-2009, 02:44 PM
I hope that the rest of the units get sold so we can all start arguing over the next phase where the residential units will be more mid market.

Is this fact or conjecture? I hadn't heard that, and the new renderings of the units above the Children's Center don't look any thing like mid-market residences - only two per floor with a lot of space.

certainly not fact, not even conjecture, just hoping. But I don't read the same thing into the drawings as you have. Snow creek only has 2 units per floor also. I would think they will be targeted at a significantly lower price then claybrook because of the state of the economy and because of the proximity to the childrens center.

Hawk
01-12-2009, 02:55 PM
I think this policy is unfortunate, though in reality its perceived impact will likely be far more than its actual impact given how many beds there are at CB. Is this privilege extended to people who rent CB units, friends of CB unit owners, or just the owners themselves?

Tin, It's just the owners. They get a special "CLaybrook Only" pass with a Red background I believe.

Tin Woodsman
01-12-2009, 03:14 PM
I think this policy is unfortunate, though in reality its perceived impact will likely be far more than its actual impact given how many beds there are at CB. Is this privilege extended to people who rent CB units, friends of CB unit owners, or just the owners themselves?

Tin, It's just the owners. They get a special "CLaybrook Only" pass with a Red background I believe.

Then I don't see that it's worth getting worked up about. There are 64 units and perhaps 150-170 beds, though perhaps as many as 250-300 pillows. Of the 64 units, 9 have no owner at all (some have owners for 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of the unit), so they don't count. I don't see this being a big deal, even on the busiest of weekends - if you've been here that long, you should know where to go to avoid the crowds by now.

I don't like the policy on a principle standpoint, but it's not the end of the world either.

Fourwide
01-12-2009, 03:17 PM
Wonder if the Claybrookers are required to sit with the great unwashed on the lifts? :?

Tin Woodsman
01-12-2009, 03:18 PM
certainly not fact, not even conjecture, just hoping. But I don't read the same thing into the drawings as you have. Snow creek only has 2 units per floor also. I would think they will be targeted at a significantly lower price then claybrook because of the state of the economy and because of the proximity to the childrens center.
I don't think I'm reading anything into the renderings. They are brand new, so they represent the latest thinking, and they clearly have only two units per floor with a hufe chef's kitchen etc.. Maybe they will be cheaper on a per square foot basis than some CBH units, but they won't be cheap. FWIW, my guess is that they won't have to worry about selling in this market b/c I'll be shocked of those structures get built in the midst of this downturn. I'd bet that selling the remaining CB shares is a pre-requisite for doing so, though I guess the EB-5 visa program is something of a wild card in that regard. Even still, if I'm relying upon the sale of expensive residences to partly finance construction of this building, I don't know how I feel comfortable moving Earth in the coming off-season.

HowieT2
01-12-2009, 03:22 PM
certainly not fact, not even conjecture, just hoping. But I don't read the same thing into the drawings as you have. Snow creek only has 2 units per floor also. I would think they will be targeted at a significantly lower price then claybrook because of the state of the economy and because of the proximity to the childrens center.
I don't think I'm reading anything into the renderings. They are brand new, so they represent the latest thinking, and they clearly have only two units per floor with a hufe chef's kitchen etc.. Maybe they will be cheaper on a per square foot basis than some CBH units, but they won't be cheap. FWIW, my guess is that they won't have to worry about selling in this market b/c I'll be shocked of those structures get built in the midst of this downturn. I'd bet that selling the remaining CB shares is a pre-requisite for doing so, though I guess the EB-5 visa program is something of a wild card in that regard. Even still, if I'm relying upon the sale of expensive residences to partly finance construction of this building, I don't know how I feel comfortable moving Earth in the coming off-season.

My use of "mid-market" was unfortunate. I meant cheaper than claybrook. But I agree that given the current market conditions and the units still available in claybrook that we won't see any construction this year.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 03:49 PM
I think this policy is unfortunate, though in reality its perceived impact will likely be far more than its actual impact given how many beds there are at CB. Is this privilege extended to people who rent CB units, friends of CB unit owners, or just the owners themselves?

Tin, It's just the owners. They get a special "CLaybrook Only" pass with a Red background I believe.

Then I don't see that it's worth getting worked up about. There are 64 units and perhaps 150-170 beds, though perhaps as many as 250-300 pillows. Of the 64 units, 9 have no owner at all (some have owners for 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of the unit), so they don't count. I don't see this being a big deal, even on the busiest of weekends - if you've been here that long, you should know where to go to avoid the crowds by now.

I don't like the policy on a principle standpoint, but it's not the end of the world either.

It depends on who an 'owner' is. If a family of four owns a quarter share, and they are all 'owners' there could be as many as 300 beds x 2 per bed x 4 quarter shares = 2400 Claybrook Cutters... People can still come up even if its not 'their weekend'.

And while we're setting precidents, when they open more housing on the hill, are THEY going to be able to cut too??

Not to mention the principle behind it is pretty low brow...

jwt
01-12-2009, 03:57 PM
This string is certainly entertaining! I just loved the Claybrook Map - except you forgot to mention CR will now be groomed smooth for them too!

In reality, someone, maybe Hawk mentioned that the owners are active and responsibly listening to the customer. You simply don't get that at 95% of resorts or even most large businesses.

Simple little things like North Lynx and snow making - now maybe that was the plan anyway - but it's discussed and boom! They are blowing snow.
I and a few others wanted to see a fire pit - boom! Larger CRP - done. Even have the president EXPLAINING some of his reasoning for doing x or y.

Top maybe 20 % of mountain is in National Forest - the rest is privately owned. I think the North closing in early April is a far more pressing issue - and one that is not going to change - they built the place and they are going to feed the customers to the new facilities - simple as that.

Investment asks for a return - w/o RE to turn a dollar on, there would be no SV. There is little or no money to be made selling lift tickets. If there was, there would not be so many empty condos lying around all the major resorts at the base - getting utilized 30 or 40% of the time. Even the Yellowstone Club went belly up!

I did enjoy the string though! Very creative when you get angry.

freeheel_skier
01-12-2009, 04:05 PM
1527 Views in 24hrs :shock: .....that has to be a record!

summitchallenger
01-12-2009, 04:12 PM
In reality, someone, maybe Hawk mentioned that the owners are active and responsibly listening to the customer. You simply don't get that at 95% of resorts or even most large businesses.

Simple little things like North Lynx and snow making - now maybe that was the plan anyway - but it's discussed and boom! They are blowing snow.
I and a few others wanted to see a fire pit - boom! Larger CRP - done. Even have the president EXPLAINING some of his reasoning for doing x or y.

Bingo. I think that has had a major impact on how we view our resort versus Killington skiers viewing theirs. I will also admit that we may not agree with everything management does, but we sure do have respect for them (and there is a mutual respect).

sgottmann
01-12-2009, 04:20 PM
[quote="jwt"]This string is certainly entertaining! I just loved the Claybrook Map

I have mixed opinion of the policy -- pay for perks is the american way but no one likes a cutter, especially on a powder day. I did not notice or have any problem on Sunday with the lines (or lack thereof) on Sunday AM from 8:20 or so until 9:15 when the kids went to blazer program. I don't know what it was like at 8:00. In the long run, the real benefit for the Claybrookers would be on holiday weekends when there is a wind hold or other issues causing substantial delays.

However, 2 things would make the policy more acceptable to me:

1. Availibility to all for price -- At leaset at Copper anyone can purchase the Beeline pass. The downside is that many more people would or could opt to pay to cut. Will then need to be a cut line for the special cutters? I do think that there would be interest in a Claybrook membership that entitled access to the pool, hot tub, other amenities/perks for the non-claybrook owner. While this does necessarily solve the problem of selling the remaining units, it would bring in additional revenue and potentially lead to some claybrook sales, if the services and amenities were good enough. Just a thought.
2. Cheaper season passes a la Copper Mountain -- $259 for a season pass and I will wait a lot longer for my ride up the mountain.

MntMan4Bush
01-12-2009, 04:20 PM
I think the biggest argument here is how SB chooses to treat ALL of it's clientele. As has been stated no one is arguing the merits of ski school or other programs that you pay daily for to be allowed in the line. Or ski patrol (although some guy at CR gave the patrollers a hard time on Sunday. Outrageous).

So what this boils down to is money. Money is more important then how people feel or are treated. So I would like to how much will it cost. Surely I can pay some additional fee to get in line ahead of you roobs. What an extra $2 a day? Will that do it? $10? $20? How about instead a nice extra flat fee of $400 to tack onto my season pass? Will that cut it? If the mountain wants more money just say so. I've got tons to throw around. Everyone has a price. Out with it. I don't want a course, a lesson or to ski with someone else I want to know at what price point does it become attractive to SB to offer a special privilege?

While we're at it it's clear that we owe great thanks to Claybrook owners for buying us our new Castlerock pub. Without them we wouldn't know such luxuries. As such it only seems fitting that they should have special reserved seating and be afforded first round.

I won't fault Claybrook owners here because this was something that was presented to them by SV. We can talk about one's level of douche-ness but in all fairness if this was given to them they'd be fools to not take advantage of it. What is in question here is SV decision to do so. Clearly it is a revenue motivated decision. So out with. What's my new VIP badge for the rest of us suckers cost?

I think Dawn's point is valid and hopefully Win will address the feedback as he usually does here in the forum. One person coming to him to complain won't accomplish a lot , but if many are upset and he sees it here it may make argument more valid.

freeheel_skier
01-12-2009, 04:21 PM
Even have the president EXPLAINING some of his reasoning for doing x or y.

Bingo. I think that has had a major impact on how we view our resort versus Killington skiers viewing theirs. I will also admit that we may not agree with everything management does, but we sure do have respect for them (and there is a mutual respect).

Absolutely! Having the ownership ask for opinions and or feedback is huge :wink:

Tin Woodsman
01-12-2009, 04:59 PM
It depends on who an 'owner' is. If a family of four owns a quarter share, and they are all 'owners' there could be as many as 300 beds x 2 per bed x 4 quarter shares = 2400 Claybrook Cutters... People can still come up even if its not 'their weekend'.

And while we're setting precidents, when they open more housing on the hill, are THEY going to be able to cut too??

Not to mention the principle behind it is pretty low brow...
My math may not be 100% accurate, but yours is histerical and lousy. There are actually 61 units with a total of 144 bedrooms. Let's assume that half of those rooms have more than one bed, so we're looking at 216 beds. Of those, some are two pillows, so add another 72 to get to 288. So we are now assuming that all 144 bedrooms have two owners (not just people) in them on a given weekend. We know this to be false for several reasons:

1) Fully 9 out of the 61 units (14.7%) aren't sold at all. That means that there are no passes for 42 of those potential 288 pillows. Down to 246.

2) Not all units are owner-occupied all the time.

3) Even when units are occupied by an owner, they may not their whole family with them.

All in all, you are probably looking at less than 200, and likely closer to 150, special pass holders on any given weekend/holiday. Even this lower number implies that there are three passholders per unit sold on th mtn, who wouldn't otherwise be cutting the line via ski school etc.. In other words, the 150 estimate is probably too high and really not something you should get worked up about as much as you are.

mikec13
01-12-2009, 05:13 PM
I would not be surprised if Win and crew were not entirely thrilled with the program...As support I offer the fact that the "line cutting" passes are not a new thing in the East...I know "gold" passes were sold at Okemo in 2000 I assume they are available at Stratton and yet there are no such programs at Sugarbush...I am sure at some point these types of passes were discussed...I would guess the idea was dismissed as not being consistent with the mountains approach

NOW you have these high end time shares that you need to get rid of and your marketing people tell you to keep piling on the amenities...as has been pointed out in prior posts the real impact is not going to be too bad so a compromise is reached and the priveleges are offered

When all is said and done I don't think this is that big of a problem and I hope they don't offer a line cutting pass to all who wish to pay more

boze
01-12-2009, 05:59 PM
One can always skin / hike up and avoid the lines altogether. :shock:

Lift tix pricing already precludes some from participating in this great sport and prevents them from 'accessing' the mountain via its lifts. So long as any special privledges afforded to others are disclosed, those of us who go ahead and purchase tix / passes do not have much to stand on.

Philosophically I get the point about 'cutting' and its possible impact esp on a powder day - more psyche / frustration IMHO than anything else but to each their own. I'll admit I'm none too keen even when a slug of lesson folks hop in line ahead of me, but I appreciate the tradition, bought my pass knowing that that's a likely possibility, and certainly recognize their need to get more lesson time considering the premium they are paying. Hmm that touches on the pay-for-play theme.

Anyway, using special amenities to sell product is a practice as old as the hills. No issue w/ that, it is a business and I'm more keen to the SV turn a profit and thus remain healthy & re-invest in the guest experience. Offering a pay-to-play program to the general public is a concern, as that's likely to lead to much more stratification, the "us & them". While I lack MtnMan's overflowing jugs of dough, I have some means. But the less special access the better; too much of that and it's either a bidding war, or not so special.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 06:12 PM
I would not be surprised if Win and crew were not entirely thrilled with the program...As support I offer the fact that the "line cutting" passes are not a new thing in the East...I know "gold" passes were sold at Okemo in 2000 I assume they are available at Stratton and yet there are no such programs at Sugarbush...I am sure at some point these types of passes were discussed...I would guess the idea was dismissed as not being consistent with the mountains approach

NOW you have these high end time shares that you need to get rid of and your marketing people tell you to keep piling on the amenities...as has been pointed out in prior posts the real impact is not going to be too bad so a compromise is reached and the priveleges are offered

When all is said and done I don't think this is that big of a problem and I hope they don't offer a line cutting pass to all who wish to pay moreI do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like okemo...

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 06:18 PM
To all who said its ok because it isnt that many people, what about when gh is broken and hg is on wind hold during presidents week? What about when here are several hundred more beds in the village and hundreds more have cutter passes?

ahm
01-12-2009, 06:46 PM
At that point, most of us won't want to ski at SB. As for the holidays................stay away, stay away, if at all possible. You bring up many valid points, but let's see the impact. When those lifts are down, if the skiing is actually good (which it often is) G3, Black Diamond, Fritschi, Dynafit, Marker, Voile, and Prior have solutions which make those types of situations rather enjoyable for those who choose to acquire such "devices". I for one, typically have some alternate form of transportation available when situations such as you describe become reality. Enjoy the snow, it was pretty good on Sunday and here's to more days like that (even with that hidden ice-coast stuff lurking around). AHM

othripper
01-12-2009, 07:07 PM
Whoa,

this thread is as entertaining as the one last year where folks were upset about having to wait in line for the madbus........

mikec13
01-12-2009, 07:11 PM
I would not be surprised if Win and crew were not entirely thrilled with the program...As support I offer the fact that the "line cutting" passes are not a new thing in the East...I know "gold" passes were sold at Okemo in 2000 I assume they are available at Stratton and yet there are no such programs at Sugarbush...I am sure at some point these types of passes were discussed...I would guess the idea was dismissed as not being consistent with the mountains approach

NOW you have these high end time shares that you need to get rid of and your marketing people tell you to keep piling on the amenities...as has been pointed out in prior posts the real impact is not going to be too bad so a compromise is reached and the priveleges are offered

When all is said and done I don't think this is that big of a problem and I hope they don't offer a line cutting pass to all who wish to pay moreI do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like okemo...


Finally something we can all agree on

vonski
01-12-2009, 07:31 PM
This certainly is entertaining. I for one always enjoyed the priviledge when my son was in Blazers the last two years that on those busy days I would jump/cut the line by grabbing the first chair off the base with his Blazer group. I would not abuse the priviledge and would only catch the first ride up with the group to get away from the line at the bottom of the mountain. So, I guess I was classless!!! I never thought so though!. I just felt it was a hidden perk of having paid the bucks for him to be in Blazers. Unfortunately this year I did not have the MountainMan bucks to throw around this year. ( oh yeah, Mountainman I will take some of that extra cash that you have to throw around. I could use it right now.) I consider myself a budget skier and that is why I chose the Ellen pass this year. No lines typically anyways. and to be quite honest that is why I will make the drive to Sugarbush as the lines are not nearly as bad as the southern resorts and the skiing kicks ass in comparison.

Friends ask me about lines at Sugarbush and the thing I tell them is that they only exist on the Saturday of a Holiday week or a Saturday after a big dump as there seems to be more folks hitting the mountain from the Regional area. So, I am not sure how big an impact this all has on the lines anyways. Windhold situations are controlled by MOTHER NATURE not the resort.

The thing that would bother me the most was when the lifty got mad that I went through the ski school line or ducked the rope at gatehouse when there was no line at all in the corrals or for the ski school. The lifty wanted me to trek around the ropes. The hell with that. I just climbed the stairs. There is no line get out of the way and let me on the lift!! cause I was not cutting anyone just making life easier.

Also realize that there is so much mountain out there and that even the priviledge like Egan and ski school do not cut at Castlerock. or, go to Ellen on the above mentioned days and get on the lifts with no lines.

Now if we can just keep Northridge running all the time so there are no lines at Ellen. To me that is the real priority. Making sure the lifts turn without breaking.

Also, in regards to the new base properties at South, I thought that was all set with the foreign investment thing. I did not realize there was still some debate or concern for breaking ground. I thought that was a done deal.

skigal
01-12-2009, 07:48 PM
I've had one kid or another in Blazers for 9 years and would never have gone up with the group to beat the line. On a crowded day the 9:30 rush of Blazers and adult programs strains the coral as it is.

I remember some parents who would coveniently decide to ski with their kids' group on holiday weekends, only holiday weekends.

freeheel_skier
01-12-2009, 08:00 PM
I for one always enjoyed the priviledge when my son was in Blazers the last two years that on those busy days I would jump/cut the line by grabbing the first chair off the base with his Blazer group. I would not abuse the priviledge and would only catch the first ride up with the group to get away from the line at the bottom of the mountain. So, I guess I was classless!!! I never thought so though!. I just felt it was a hidden perk of having paid the bucks for him to be in Blazers.
The thing that would bother me the most was when the lifty got mad that I went through the ski school line or ducked the rope at gatehouse when there was no line at all in the corrals or for the ski school. The lifty wanted me to trek around the ropes. The hell with that. I just climbed the stairs. There is no line get out of the way and let me on the lift!! cause I was not cutting anyone just making life easier.

I agree on the entertaining part. However, you contradicted yourself (IMHO) by stating that you grab 1st chair with the blazers to get away from the line @ the bottom. Did the document you signed when paying for the blazer program say that line privileges was part of the deal? If so, I apologize for pointing this out. Now can you imagine if all the blazer parents or parents who have kids in programs cut line :shock: :roll: :?:
I am missing your point regarding the liftie statement :?

HowieT2
01-12-2009, 08:01 PM
I would not be surprised if Win and crew were not entirely thrilled with the program...As support I offer the fact that the "line cutting" passes are not a new thing in the East...I know "gold" passes were sold at Okemo in 2000 I assume they are available at Stratton and yet there are no such programs at Sugarbush...I am sure at some point these types of passes were discussed...I would guess the idea was dismissed as not being consistent with the mountains approach

NOW you have these high end time shares that you need to get rid of and your marketing people tell you to keep piling on the amenities...as has been pointed out in prior posts the real impact is not going to be too bad so a compromise is reached and the priveleges are offered

When all is said and done I don't think this is that big of a problem and I hope they don't offer a line cutting pass to all who wish to pay moreI do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like okemo...

That's the most ridiculous thing you've said in this entire thread. If you don't ski SB how do you know about the sign thing?
as for apsiring to be like Okemo, if by that you mean making money and having nice, up to date facilities, I'm all for it.

MntMan4Bush
01-12-2009, 08:07 PM
Sorry all. I've been too busy lighting a fire in my golden chimney and used up all my cash as kindling. I wasn't able to see the outstretched hands of the SB pauper population and such, but even if I did I probably would have spent all my money on a warehouse full of Jake Delhomme bobblehead dolls instead. Easy come, easy go. Maybe next time. Until then I'm off to play raquetball with Rupert Murdoch.

So it seems the message is that only a really special group of people with money, and not just anyone with money can have these privileges. I get it. Sound policy. I'm not concerned about the number of people because personally I don't think it represents a high volume and would only be seen on holiday weekends/weeks where lifts go down. Since that NEVER happens for any reason, wind or not, then I'll conclude it's not an issue. My issue is the principal of the idea. If you want to create an us vs. them environment that's the way to do it. If you allowed everyone to buy the same "status" then at least they'd have the option. I'm not really even trying to promote that as I wouldn't "upgrade" even if they did. It just sucks that despite the fact that I paid the same price for a ticket then the next guy he's better then me. They bought a piece of property. I didn't realize ownership at CB was also purchase into a special club.

This is just my opinion and how I feel about it. SB can do with it what they will and I'm sure they'll make a decision that's best for the mountain, but since this is a discussion thread all opinions are welcome unless of course there's a special group that are allowed to voice opinions and the rest of us are only allowed to listen........ :wink: Now if you'll excuse me I've got to go put a new coat of beluga caviar polish on my diamond bowling ball. John Goodman is coming over and I won't miss the 7-10 split on the Crystal pins again and owe him another steak dinner at Mortons. Not even I can afford that.

vonski
01-12-2009, 08:08 PM
like I said i never abused the priviledge of going up with the Blazer group. It generally, was to make my kid happy or because they had only 7 in the group so there was an extra seat anyways. Like I admitted maybe I was classless, but really thought nothing of it cause I had shelled out the extra bucks.

So, I guess I agree with the Claybrook policy. This is America and capitolism rules. If you got the cash, you do and will have more benefits than the rest. That is what makes The United States Great!!! and this is from someone who this year stays with friends or at the Hilltop Inn in Barre (certainly not Claybrook) so I can ski this year.

Go Figure
01-12-2009, 08:27 PM
[quote="vonski"]like I said i never abused the priviledge of going up with the Blazer group. It generally, was to make my kid happy or because they had only 7 in the group so there was an extra seat anyways. I admit I was classless, but really thought nothing of it cause I had shelled out the extra bucks.
Fixed it for you :wink:
Xtra seat was denied to someone waiting in the singles line

vonski
01-12-2009, 08:48 PM
Freeheel skier, I was referring to days when there was no line, but they had set up the corrals so they went out past the waffle house last year. and had no access on the left side and one had to go all the way to the right to get around the ropes. On a couple occassions there was no line at all. No one in the lines so I came up to the ski patrol/school line which was right in front and was told I had to go around the ropes. this happened more than once. could not figure the logic on that one.

Go figure: I am also admitting that I guess I was classless in cutting the line with the Blazer group. But I must also clarify that I always asked the coach if it was okay to catch the first run with the group. It being off Gatehouse most times it was to get up to slidebrook express to get to Ellen to get away from the lines the rest of the day. So I saw it as being productive as I was going to North and making less of a crowd at South.

I guess my basic opinion on this whole thing is who really cares. the amount of people getting cuts from claybrook is minimal and the lines are nothing like the lines at the southern resorts. Even on worst days I think the worse wait has been maybe 10-15 minutes unless there is major windhold. We can all check out the weather reports and if we see that there is going to be wind then stay home or deal with the lines that exist once in a while. I certainly am watching that this year as I did not rent a condo this year, so I don't waste the time and gas to come up if there are going to be major wind issues.

Dawn Patrol
01-12-2009, 08:56 PM
I would not be surprised if Win and crew were not entirely thrilled with the program...As support I offer the fact that the "line cutting" passes are not a new thing in the East...I know "gold" passes were sold at Okemo in 2000 I assume they are available at Stratton and yet there are no such programs at Sugarbush...I am sure at some point these types of passes were discussed...I would guess the idea was dismissed as not being consistent with the mountains approach

NOW you have these high end time shares that you need to get rid of and your marketing people tell you to keep piling on the amenities...as has been pointed out in prior posts the real impact is not going to be too bad so a compromise is reached and the priveleges are offered

When all is said and done I don't think this is that big of a problem and I hope they don't offer a line cutting pass to all who wish to pay moreI do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like okemo...

That's the most ridiculous thing you've said in this entire thread. If you don't ski SB how do you know about the sign thing?
as for apsiring to be like Okemo, if by that you mean making money and having nice, up to date facilities, I'm all for it.

Take a second, read the words I wrote, comprehend them, then type. Then read what you wrote, and THEN press submit....

I do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like Okemo. Clearly I ski at Sugarbush, can you figure the rest out now?


Additionally, as soon as the remaining Claybrook condos are sold, it won't be a 'pay to play' deal, it'll be a you can't have a Claybrook Cutter pass because all of the condos are sold.....

barkbiter
01-12-2009, 10:34 PM
This is not silly crap, its a sign of the way Sugarbush views us. Apparently I'm not welcome here.. No worries, Stowe is only 29 miles up the road...

Edit: As far as my grocery store goes, I don't shop at places that I think treat people unfairly.[/quote]



O M G go to Stowe please !!!!!! I'll pitch in for the extra $ the lift ticket costs. Are you ok with the unfairly priced lift tickets there ?

Life just isn't fair is it :(

HowieT2
01-12-2009, 10:48 PM
I would not be surprised if Win and crew were not entirely thrilled with the program...As support I offer the fact that the "line cutting" passes are not a new thing in the East...I know "gold" passes were sold at Okemo in 2000 I assume they are available at Stratton and yet there are no such programs at Sugarbush...I am sure at some point these types of passes were discussed...I would guess the idea was dismissed as not being consistent with the mountains approach

NOW you have these high end time shares that you need to get rid of and your marketing people tell you to keep piling on the amenities...as has been pointed out in prior posts the real impact is not going to be too bad so a compromise is reached and the priveleges are offered

When all is said and done I don't think this is that big of a problem and I hope they don't offer a line cutting pass to all who wish to pay moreI do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like okemo...

That's the most ridiculous thing you've said in this entire thread. If you don't ski SB how do you know about the sign thing?
as for apsiring to be like Okemo, if by that you mean making money and having nice, up to date facilities, I'm all for it.

Take a second, read the words I wrote, comprehend them, then type. Then read what you wrote, and THEN press submit....

I do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like Okemo. Clearly I ski at Sugarbush, can you figure the rest out now?


Additionally, as soon as the remaining Claybrook condos are sold, it won't be a 'pay to play' deal, it'll be a you can't have a Claybrook Cutter pass because all of the condos are sold.....

I care about as much about cutters as I do about the marketing shwag I get, which is what it is. As a blazer parent I guess I can go with them but it never even occurred to me. As the great sage Derrick Coleman once said "woop de damn do"
Coincidentally, this morning waiting in line to park at a lot in the bronx, two cars cut in front of me and pulled in before me since the attendant asled me to back up. Didn't matter as we were all just parking our car and leaving and I was early anyway. While it was totally uncool, I wasn't going to make a case of it.

Dawn Patrol
01-13-2009, 06:52 AM
This is not silly crap, its a sign of the way Sugarbush views us. Apparently I'm not welcome here.. No worries, Stowe is only 29 miles up the road...

Edit: As far as my grocery store goes, I don't shop at places that I think treat people unfairly.



O M G go to Stowe please !!!!!! I'll pitch in for the extra $ the lift ticket costs. Are you ok with the unfairly priced lift tickets there ?

Life just isn't fair is it :([/quote]

Lift tickets are like $7 more at Stowe..... :?: And isn't Sugarbush selling it's sole to make a dime on Claybrook? Then OMG please go? Good marketing plan..

Dawn Patrol
01-13-2009, 06:54 AM
I would not be surprised if Win and crew were not entirely thrilled with the program...As support I offer the fact that the "line cutting" passes are not a new thing in the East...I know "gold" passes were sold at Okemo in 2000 I assume they are available at Stratton and yet there are no such programs at Sugarbush...I am sure at some point these types of passes were discussed...I would guess the idea was dismissed as not being consistent with the mountains approach

NOW you have these high end time shares that you need to get rid of and your marketing people tell you to keep piling on the amenities...as has been pointed out in prior posts the real impact is not going to be too bad so a compromise is reached and the priveleges are offered

When all is said and done I don't think this is that big of a problem and I hope they don't offer a line cutting pass to all who wish to pay moreI do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like okemo...

That's the most ridiculous thing you've said in this entire thread. If you don't ski SB how do you know about the sign thing?
as for apsiring to be like Okemo, if by that you mean making money and having nice, up to date facilities, I'm all for it.

Take a second, read the words I wrote, comprehend them, then type. Then read what you wrote, and THEN press submit....

I do not ski at sugarbush because it aspires to be like Okemo. Clearly I ski at Sugarbush, can you figure the rest out now?


Additionally, as soon as the remaining Claybrook condos are sold, it won't be a 'pay to play' deal, it'll be a you can't have a Claybrook Cutter pass because all of the condos are sold.....

I care about as much about cutters as I do about the marketing shwag I get, which is what it is. As a blazer parent I guess I can go with them but it never even occurred to me. As the great sage Derrick Coleman once said "woop de damn do"
Coincidentally, this morning waiting in line to park at a lot in the bronx, two cars cut in front of me and pulled in before me since the attendant asled me to back up. Didn't matter as we were all just parking our car and leaving and I was early anyway. While it was totally uncool, I wasn't going to make a case of it.

Again... There willl always be cutters. But super special people like the claybrook cutters are allowed to cut because they are better than us.

skibum1321
01-13-2009, 07:45 AM
Lift tickets are like $7 more at Stowe..... :?: And isn't Sugarbush selling it's sole to make a dime on Claybrook? Then OMG please go? Good marketing plan..
Actually they're $17 more at Stowe ($89 - $72 = $17). I don't agree with the policy but I think you're blowing it way out of proportion.

gone.skiing
01-13-2009, 08:21 AM
Lift tickets are like $7 more at Stowe..... :?:

Sounds like a winner. See you there.

WWF-VT
01-13-2009, 08:55 AM
[quote=Dawn Patrol]


All in all, you are probably looking at less than 200, and likely closer to 150, special pass holders on any given weekend/holiday. Even this lower number implies that there are three passholders per unit sold on th mtn, who wouldn't otherwise be cutting the line via ski school etc.. In other words, the 150 estimate is probably too high and really not something you should get worked up about as much as you are.

I participate in a weekend adult program and have been on a chair only once with a Claybrook pass holder and see VERY few ever in the ski school line. The impact to the rest of the people waiting in line is negligible

Tin Woodsman
01-13-2009, 08:57 AM
Again... There willl always be cutters. But super special people like the claybrook cutters are allowed to cut because they are better than us.

No. They are allowed to cut b/c they chose to purchase property from Summit Ventures and, for better or for worse, it is the purchase of those properties that determines the financial health of Summit Ventures and by extension Sugarbush. You had, and in fact still have, the opportunity to purchase a 1/4 so as to have that benefit for yourself, but you have chosen not to do so. If you already own in the Valley, and many CB owners do, you could have sold. Even if you don't own, I suspect you've never even looked into the economics - FWIW, I know at least one owner who's monthly nut was paid by renters. Everyone has the opportunity to buy into CB - it's not a snobby club. And if ou ever hope to see real on-mountain improvements like the much-needed snowmaking system upgrade, the eventual replacement of the NRX with something that works, the replacement of the VH chair, and (yeah right) the Upper Inverness pod, then you'd better hope they sell those remaining 20% of units - that's where all the profit is.

Dawn Patrol
01-13-2009, 09:07 AM
Tin, do you know how much cb cost to build? If they made 50 million from cb sales, what was their profit? I bet it's one years ticket sales max. CB financial impact is way over blown if I had to guess.

MntMan4Bush
01-13-2009, 09:18 AM
Dawn, as much as I am also irked by the constant savior chanting of our CB owners who without them the mountain would have surely slipped into a black hole and we'd all be skiing at Blue Hills I might have to disagree on the financial impact. Even using rough numbers of 60 units at $275,000 for a 1/4 share that comes to $66,000,000 for all shares sold. Now of course some units were more and maybe not all were split into quarters, but it's just rough numbers. I'm not sure ticket sales gets that much in.

I am getting a little tired of the "If it weren't for them....." attitude. For the record I've heard none of it from actual CB owners and I don't fault them for this mentality, but it seems some have taken on the opinion that SB was nothing before CB and without them we'd be nothing. If memory serves me we had a pretty nice little mountain before CB was here. SV did a good job I think in putting them in to generate revenue and made them fit the landscape, but let's not get carried away here. If anyone doesn't feel appreciated enough they can crawl up on the cross themselves and nail them self to it. Let's not go down this road.

rfm
01-13-2009, 10:02 AM
Can a long time lurker add my 2 cents? I don't believe it was the right choice to make but I also agree that it will not have a great impact on wait times as long as there is no additions to the lines by owners bringing friends. I also do not believe someone will buy a CB Unit because of the lift line privileges. It certainly sets up a different class of skier and for that I am disappointed in the decision.

But once the genies out of the bottle its tough to put it back in so I think this is something we'll have to get use to.

Since the said bottle has been opened........ How about a Season's Pass Holder queue during Holiday periods? OR the lifts open at 7:30 for CB First Track's and 7:45 for Season Passes?
:wink:

Fourwide
01-13-2009, 10:16 AM
RFM writes: "How about a Season's Pass Holder queue during Holiday periods?"

Now that's a great idea, at least at SB and GH.

smootharc
01-13-2009, 10:24 AM
....to read and attempt to decipher. The cacophony of axes grinding is....like hissing snowmaking guns pointed at each ear. A lot of energy is being put into "proving" CB owners are rich, elitist douches. What I'm taking away from all this noise....please ready your brickbats....is a lot of petty-sounding, mean-spirited negativism that proves nothing....as there has been clarity from day one that this "privilege" was part of CB ownership.

I'll readily admit to "guilty as charged" for at times letting myself get sucked into a negative life cycle over this issue or that. When I finally do get my head turned right side out, it always amazes me how much time, energy, and soul-sucking cost I've paid to prove to myself....drumroll please....absolutely nothing.

Kudos to those who have chirped up with reasoned takes on this "issue". I have no problem with the policy, and feel the overall impact, as has been pointed out, is minimal.

Tin Woodsman
01-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Tin, do you know how much cb cost to build? If they made 50 million from cb sales, what was their profit? I bet it's one years ticket sales max. CB financial impact is way over blown if I had to guess.

If they generate $50-60MM by selling CB units, and 20% of that is profit (which I think is a low estimate), then you are looking at $10-12MM of pure profit. SB is, I believe, generating roughly 300,000 skier visits per year. Given the low avg cost per skier visit for season pass holders, the various discounts that are available, multi-day discounts, and the number of skier visits in the early and late season when day tickets aren't at full price, I think it's safe to assume that the avg. ticket cost per skier visit is materially less than the $72 rack rate. Let's call it $60 as a nice, round number. But people buy meals, lessons, and beer, so let's call it $90/person/day. If you run the math, that's $27MM in revenue for the entire year. Margins on skiing operations are miniscule - like less than 5% in good years. Put in another way, ski areas usually sell for something like 8x EBITDA, and SV bought the place for, IIRC, $12MM. That would imply $1.5MM of EBITDA that year. I'm sure that they have at least doubled that with the increased skier visits and amenities, but that's still EBITDA, not profit. Adding back depreciation and taxes, you're looking at maybe $1.0 - $1.5MM at most in profit, and that's in a good year. So CB, in one fell swoop can generate 5-10 years worth of profit from the skiing operations. I'd say that's worth it.

MntMan4Bush
01-13-2009, 10:37 AM
If you have hissing snow guns in your ears then clearly you must not be at Sugarbush. Well certainly not with 2 going at the same time................ Oh that was a low blow. Even I feel ashamed.

As has been proven in this forum time and time again "absolutely nothing" is the least that can happen so really if someone has the time there is no harm. More often then not when complaints are lodged or axe grinding occurs it hits the ears of people who can effect change. You can argue how legitimate his complaint is, but if it's how someone feels then so be it. Despite all this back and forth I think that at least something has come from this. rfm has posed a decent idea. Or even some variation of it? Season pass holders spend a lot of money at the mountain. Why not something for us? If it doesn't happen so what, but it doesn't hurt to ask seeing how we're on the topic of those who pay more get more.

atkinson
01-13-2009, 10:49 AM
I can't comment on the Clay Brook policy, but need to clarify the Adventure Learning Center policies.

Blazer parents can help with groups of kids younger than seven, because these kids need to ride with an adult. Parents can tag along with older kids any time they want, but they should wait in the regular lines. If parents want to join the adult groups or privates, we would love to ski or ride with you!

There are no ALC group lines at Castlerock, Valley House or Village. All other lifts may have a designated line and Sugarbush ALC programs, including the freestyle team, have access to them. Often the corral attendant will direct line integration, and we ask coaches and guest to say please and thank you, and to limit how chairs enter the line at a time.

For the record, last February break Adam G. timed the line at Bravo during the busiest part of the day and it was less than ten minutes.

As for the "elitism" of owners, I know a few of them and cannot verify this attitude. I've also gotten know many of their kids through summer camps and winter programs, and they are roundly well-behaved and respectful. A few of them have even become some of our best new employees.

Please send a message directly to Win. Internet ski debates are fun, but not as fun as actual skiing. Powder day tomorrow!

John

p.s. Just to clarify, Slide Brook buses are first come, first served for everybody.
Yesterday, Hannah and I had a bus to ourselves, although I will say that our trip down was a lot of hunt and peck. There are still a large number of barely hidden obstacles in most places. We footpacked, meandered and made a few turns, there was very little actual flow. Be careful!

Hawk
01-13-2009, 10:55 AM
Tin, do you know how much cb cost to build? If they made 50 million from cb sales, what was their profit? I bet it's one years ticket sales max. CB financial impact is way over blown if I had to guess.

If they generate $50-60MM by selling CB units, and 20% of that is profit (which I think is a low estimate), then you are looking at $10-12MM of pure profit. SB is, I believe, generating roughly 300,000 skier visits per year. Given the low avg cost per skier visit for season pass holders, the various discounts that are available, multi-day discounts, and the number of skier visits in the early and late season when day tickets aren't at full price, I think it's safe to assume that the avg. ticket cost per skier visit is materially less than the $72 rack rate. Let's call it $60 as a nice, round number. But people buy meals, lessons, and beer, so let's call it $90/person/day. If you run the math, that's $27MM in revenue for the entire year. Margins on skiing operations are miniscule - like less than 5% in good years. Put in another way, ski areas usually sell for something like 8x EBITDA, and SV bought the place for, IIRC, $12MM. That would imply $1.5MM of EBITDA that year. I'm sure that they have at least doubled that with the increased skier visits and amenities, but that's still EBITDA, not profit. Adding back depreciation and taxes, you're looking at maybe $1.0 - $1.5MM at most in profit, and that's in a good year. So CB, in one fell swoop can generate 5-10 years worth of profit from the skiing operations. I'd say that's worth it.

I'm no finance expert but I am a construction person. I would like to throw out that I agree that CB profits are not the end all for the next phase. But what I will add is that the selling of most of the CB units will directly influence the financing. Banks/Financers want to see that SV can sell and be successful before they will ink a deal. This is especially true today. I have seen plenty of deals with developers fall through in the last 6 months. So no we don't have to say "If it weren't for them", it should be "Thank god someone bought them"...... :wink:

and no, this is not justification for the line cutting, just a thought about the future plans. After all who wants to see the temp village become perminant.

skibum1321
01-13-2009, 11:00 AM
rfm has posed a decent idea. Or even some variation of it? Season pass holders spend a lot of money at the mountain. Why not something for us? If it doesn't happen so what, but it doesn't hurt to ask seeing how we're on the topic of those who pay more get more.
That is just creating even more class divisions in the ski area. Isn't a big part of the original complaint that we feel like second class citizens? So with that system we could be second class citizens and day skiers could be third class citizens. But as long as there is another class below you then all is good with the world :roll:

freeheel_skier
01-13-2009, 11:03 AM
I can't comment on the Clay Brook policy, but need to clarify the Adventure Learning Center policies.

Blazer parents can help with groups of kids younger than seven, because these kids need to ride with an adult. Parents can tag along with older kids any time they want, but they should wait in the regular lines. If parents want to join the adult groups or privates, we would love to ski or ride with you!

There are no ALC group lines at Castlerock, Valley House or Village. All other lifts may have a designated line and Sugarbush ALC programs, including the freestyle team, have access to them. Often the corral attendant will direct line integration, and we ask coaches and guest to say please and thank you, and to limit how chairs enter the line at a time.

For the record, last February break Adam G. timed the line at Bravo during the busiest part of the day and it was less than ten minutes.

As for the "elitism" of owners, I know a few of them and cannot verify this attitude. I've also gotten know many of their kids through summer camps and winter programs, and they are roundly well-behaved and respectful. A few of them have even become some of our best new employees.

Please send a message directly to Win. Internet ski debates are fun, but not as fun as actual skiing. Powder day tomorrow!

John

p.s. Just to clarify, Slide Brook buses are first come, first served for everybody.
Yesterday, Hannah and I had a bus to ourselves, although I will say that our trip down was a lot of hunt and peck. There are still a large number of barely hidden obstacles in most places. We footpacked, meandered and made a few turns, there was very little actual flow. Be careful!

John,


Thanks for taking the time for the explanation. I appreiciate your candor on the Blazer subject :wink:

FWIW the clay brook line policy did bother me @ first when I saw the sign. The more I thought about it the less it bothered me......spend more time @ ME and you won't have to worry about it :D

madhavok
01-13-2009, 11:10 AM
Its seems like almost all agree that SV’s new line cutter policy lacks taste (politely putting it) and goes against most of our principles. Heck it even goes against SV’s own principles they list on their website, but that’s not what people are disagreeing about.

The point is where do you decide to draw the line? Some say clay cutting is a small inconvenience and just give in. That’s fine, but I guarantee it won’t stop there after all it is the goal to give Claybrook owners a private country club experience. So what will be the straw that breaks your back and will it be too late to do something about it?

Is this new policy an eye opener for you? Then do something about it. If not continue to do what you like. As for me I find the policy souring.

So what can you do?
Well unfortunately once a privilege has been entitled it is not easy to take it away. Claybrook owners have been given a special privilege and their not going to let SV take it back willy nilly because skimrv members complained. Valid reasons are large public opinion, dollars & legal issues.

1. What you need to do is rock the vote. Get the word out to friends and family who ski Sugarbush. Talk about the new policy on the chair lift and let your position be known to fellow riders. Try writing letters to publications like the Valley Reporter, Ski magazine, powder mag, skiing, etc. Don’t forget the customer survey’s nearly every publication conduct every year. Are you a member of any other ski forums? You get the point; public opinion has to count for something.
2. Dollars count for sure. I’m not going to ask you to give up the legendary terrain of Sugarbush, but maybe you don’t need to solely ski Sugarbush. Next year don’t go for the season pass, spread the wealth around and enjoy some other great terrain like Stowe and Jay Peak. Additionally tired about Claybrook is owed thanks for the Gatehouse lodge and CRP? Then stop spending your money there.
3. Don’t forget Sugarbush does utilize some of the Green Mountain national forest. Now unlike other places the clay cutter pass is not available to the public. While it is true that you could purchase one of the few shares remaining in Claybrook and qualify for a cutter pass, which by no means satisfies equal public access. It might be worth contacting the National Forest Service about the issue.

rfm
01-13-2009, 11:31 AM
rfm has posed a decent idea. Or even some variation of it? Season pass holders spend a lot of money at the mountain. Why not something for us? If it doesn't happen so what, but it doesn't hurt to ask seeing how we're on the topic of those who pay more get more.
That is just creating even more class divisions in the ski area. Isn't a big part of the original complaint that we feel like second class citizens? So with that system we could be second class citizens and day skiers could be third class citizens. But as long as there is another class below you then all is good with the world :roll:

But that's exactly what I was trying to point out....Once a distinction is made in something at least to me that is so apparent, someone's feelings are going to be hurt. First you have Season Pass Holders.....next is the Condo Owners but not in ClayBrook....then Condo Owners that are involved in the Rental Pool and Day Skiers and then discount ticket holders and lastly kids under 6 who ski free...... :shock:

As customers we all like to feel special but with this new policy some are more special....

In lift line time terms no big deal I agree

vonski
01-13-2009, 11:38 AM
I have not been to South since Ellen opened for the season as I am an Ellen pass holder. I did not see the signs for CB owners at North. I guess they are at South. Are they at North as well. I think the PR mistake here is that they put up signs for the CB owners. Why not just leave it ski patrol and ski school and tell the CB owners that they can use that line as well letting the lifties know the policy. I can't tell if they are with ski school or not because when it is busy there is always someone with a group waiting to go through that line with a Sugarbush coat on. There are some larger groups at times. Then no one would have seen known about it as much as they do now. I never knew they had that right. I did know about early tracks with Win, but again I figured that is what the big bucks get ya. Oh well, I keep dreaming I will hit the lotto. Powerball is up there this week!!!

Being a passholder I have always thought that on busy days there should be a passholder line!!

Also, I have always been impressed with the Blazers and other groups and that they will alternate with the regular lineand not just all get on at once unless they are micro bears.

I have also ridden up with the little people to assist them. So one could always hang by the ski school line and look for the odd number group and offer one's assistance.

Last Tracks
01-13-2009, 11:42 AM
John was North lynx open yesterday or did you skin or hit the ME side?

freeheel_skier
01-13-2009, 11:57 AM
Not sure about the pass holder line. I am speculating that there are a lot of passholders out there and maybe that line might not be worth waiting in on a busy Holliday????? :?

Dawn Patrol
01-13-2009, 12:02 PM
The solution is to either trade that benefit for another (since they can't just take it away) or offer the cutter pass to everyone who wants to buy it (like copper). Once the remaining claybrook shares are sold, there WILL be equal access of public land issues.

vonski
01-13-2009, 12:06 PM
Not sure about the pass holder line. I am speculating that there are a lot of passholders out there and maybe that line might not be worth waiting in on a busy Holliday????? :?

that is true! unless they give us multiple lines and ticket holder only one small line. :lol:

Another issue that irks me sometimes is the singles line. I always love to see the group of three people or more dive into singles instead of going up together. I know there is no way to police that but I certainly think that is ruder and more cutting the line than the CB owners. I know it is anyones right to be a single but that gets me!!! if you are two people that does not bother me. But when I see families getting into the singles it drives me nuts. Okay I gotta get off this topic. I am locking myself from this thread. :lol:

freeheel_skier
01-13-2009, 12:42 PM
Not sure about the pass holder line. I am speculating that there are a lot of passholders out there and maybe that line might not be worth waiting in on a busy Holliday????? :?

that is true! unless they give us multiple lines and ticket holder only one small line. :lol:

Another issue that irks me sometimes is the singles line. I always love to see the group of three people or more dive into singles instead of going up together. I know there is no way to police that but I certainly think that is ruder and more cutting the line than the CB owners. I know it is anyones right to be a single but that gets me!!! if you are two people that does not bother me. But when I see families getting into the singles it drives me nuts. Okay I gotta get off this topic. I am locking myself from this thread. :lol:

I ski/ride with the same 2 jamokes on a regular basis. When there is a long line we "single up". I love it :evil: when I see a couple(dudes, girl+dude or whatever) standing in front of me in the singles line waiting for another 2 people to pair up with.....WTF? I can count on one hand how often this has happened. :lol:

While on the topic of special lines why not make a clueless line? That way everybody is covered :wink: "Can't we all just get along" :?: :lol:

othripper
01-13-2009, 01:01 PM
Ya know, I would be very surprised if SB has turned a profit at all since Win bought it. While I haven't liked some of decisions Win has made, overall I am very happy with the job he has done since he has personally taken over. He really cares about SB, and he is a skier. He is out there everyday, all over the mountain. If cutting priveledges at GH helps him to sell a few more of those condos, I say fine. I mean come on, it's just the GH. It doesn't even open until 9 on weekends. If you want to avoid crowds, go to North.

Pick up a newspaper, talk to your friends, read what goes on at the other major resorts in VT. I'm glad we have Win running the show here, and I can wait a few extra chairs to go up and rip Waterfall.

vonski
01-13-2009, 01:08 PM
If cutting priveledges at GH helps him to sell a few more of those condos, I say fine. I mean come on, it's just the GH. It doesn't even open until 9 on weekends. .

I know I locked myself but are we talking just GH here or is Bravo included. What about HG and the rest. if this is all about just GH then this is absolutely absurd. :roll:

Freeheel, I love that two with the girls as well. I was really talking about the families. I don't get that I would rather wait in line with my son so I can ride with him and talk to him. As one can never get enough time with their kids. ok locked now.

Dawn Patrol
01-13-2009, 01:09 PM
Ya know, I would be very surprised if SB has turned a profit at all since Win bought it. While I haven't lsome of decisions Win has made, overall I am very happy with the job he has done since he has personally taken over. He really cares about SB, and he is a skier. He is out there everyday, all over the mountain. If cutting priveledges at GH helps him to sell a few more of those condos, I say fine. I mean come on, it's just the GH. It doesn't even open until 9 on weekends. If you want to avoid crowds, go to North.

Pick up a newspaper, talk to your friends, read what goes on at the other major resorts in VT. I'm glad we have Win running the show here, and I can wait a few extra chairs to go up and rip Waterfall.

Its more than GH, Super Bravo included.

Edit: and apparently they get to ski earlier than you too.

Yard Sale
01-13-2009, 01:20 PM
While on the topic of special lines why not make a clueless line? That way everybody is covered :wink: "Can't we all just get along" :?: :lol:

The Clueless Line should wrap around through the gift shop and back to the parking lot. :lol:

And of course NO CUTTSIES!!!

"Thanks for coming. Have a nice day. Drive carefully."


Sincerely,

Yard Sale, Elitist Scum

win
01-13-2009, 04:10 PM
I haven't read everyone's comments, but I do not have any apologies at all for extending some special privileges to Clay Brook owners. Everyone wants Sugarbush to get better each year and to continue to committing significant capital into improving this place for everyone. The sale of CB and of additional residential units is how that is going to happen. The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc, and I hardly think it is a major inconvenience to anyone.

Tin Woodsman
01-13-2009, 04:17 PM
I haven't read everyone's comments, but I do not have any apologies at all for extending some special privileges to Clay Brook owners. Everyone wants Sugarbush to get better each year and to continue to committing significant capital into improving this place for everyone. The sale of CB and of additional residential units is how that is going to happen. The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc, and I hardly think it is a major inconvenience to anyone.

Quoted for truth. I don't see eye to eye with Win on everything, but he's dead on ball saccurate with this, even if the change is philosophically distasteful.

Yard Sale
01-13-2009, 04:37 PM
I haven't read everyone's comments, but I do not have any apologies at all for extending some special privileges to Clay Brook owners. Everyone wants Sugarbush to get better each year and to continue to committing significant capital into improving this place for everyone. The sale of CB and of additional residential units is how that is going to happen. The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc, and I hardly think it is a major inconvenience to anyone.

Quoted for truth. I don't see eye to eye with Win on everything, but he's dead on ball saccurate with this, even if the change is philosophically distasteful.

I don't see how it is distasteful.

sgottmann
01-13-2009, 04:45 PM
Win

As usual, thanks for Win's word on this one. I doubt it is in the cards, but is there any thought of a Claybrook membership for use of ameneties by non-owners? Perhaps, some sort of annual club dues that entitles the member to all inclusive Sugarbush membership at Claybrook, Golf, Health Club, Annual Pass, etc. While I am not in the market, it seems as if there may be demand from other property owners for high the higher end amenities. Just a revenue raising suggestion.

Regards

Tin Woodsman
01-13-2009, 04:52 PM
I don't see how it is distasteful.
Because you'd rather the mountain be able to fund its improvements w/o resorting to changes like this which provide a perception that is out of step with the Valley's character. This isn't Okemo or Stratton, nor should it aspire to be. This policy, however necessary, represents an importation of those sorts of values which many of us have come to SB to escape. Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point b/c the actual impact is so minute.

Last Tracks
01-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Is the right to use ski school lines written into an HOA agreement or deed? Or is it a privilege that Sugarbush extends at its discretion?

madhavok
01-13-2009, 05:45 PM
The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc,

Dead wrong. As a non-Claybrook owner I do not pay for and am not entitled in anyway to the privileges of the pool, hot tub, valet parking, equipment valet, etc. Anyone who purchases a season pass or daily ticket on the other hand is entitled to lift access and being so at least some of the terrain is Green Mountain National Forest, this could be an equal public access issue.

Further more if lift lines aren’t a problem why is this privilege even needed? Personally I highly doubt this privilege will even help sell any units. However if being more important and getting to cut the slobs in line does sway someone to buying into Claybrook then their not the type of person we need coming up here.

If this is your final decision then my only suggestion is to revise Summit Ventures #1 & #2 principles.

1). Our guest’s interest comes first
2). Respect for individuals

Yard Sale
01-13-2009, 06:11 PM
I don't see how it is distasteful.
Because you'd rather the mountain be able to fund its improvements w/o resorting to changes like this which provide a perception that is out of step with the Valley's character. This isn't Okemo or Stratton, nor should it aspire to be. This policy, however necessary, represents an importation of those sorts of values which many of us have come to SB to escape. Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point b/c the actual impact is so minute.

Close enough.

For me it's back to the 'Bush after a too long hiatus: skiing, wife, children, friends, fires and tramping around the woods with my goofy dogs and a couple of brain grenades (beers). Talk about perks, Baby!

BTW, not a Claybrooker, not that there is antyhting wrong with that.

Viva La Revolución!

Tin Woodsman
01-13-2009, 06:27 PM
The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc,

Dead wrong. As a non-Claybrook owner I do not pay for and am not entitled in anyway to the privileges of the pool, hot tub, valet parking, equipment valet, etc.
Nor are you entitled to use the ski school line, unless you pay for a lesson. I don't see the inconsistency here at all.



Further more if lift lines aren’t a problem why is this privilege even needed? Personally I highly doubt this privilege will even help sell any units. However if being more important and getting to cut the slobs in line does sway someone to buying into Claybrook then their not the type of person we need coming up here.
I'm sure that Win doesn't need unsolicited advice from you on who he needs up here. What "we" need up here (and by we, I mean us people who ski and love SB) are people willing to throw down for CB units in order to fund the stuff that matters to people on this board. It's not a pretty thought, but that's the reality. If SB could rely soley on lift ticket sales to ensure its future, it wouldn't be on its 6th? (7th?) set of owners. Notice how SV is the 4th set just since 1984 - the period when snowmaking became a mandatory feature.

Plowboy
01-13-2009, 08:25 PM
I remember sking at Great Gorge(NJ) back in the mid 70's with two brothers that had preferred lift line passes. Their father was a member of the Playboy Club accross the rd. , all members and family got preferred lift line passes. I'm not sure if they sold these type passes to the general public though. I found this letter written by Greg Zoll. Cool stuff about snowmaking and check out the 2nd to last sentence.




http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/MX51/gorge-jet.jpg

Above is the actual installation in the Great Gorge parking lot, taken in the late 1960s by Curtiss-Wright. In the background is Great Gorge North prior to development. Photos courtesy the Zoll family.

Snow making was crucial to GG's early success and they were very innovative there as well -- a Curtiss-Wright "Jet Air Compressor" was installed in the parking lot in the late 60's. It used a modified "J-65" jet aircraft engine to compress air and was the brain child of a couple of innovative Curtiss-Wright engineers, including my dad. It was marketed to GG by a Curtiss-Wright VP, skier and early GG bond holder. The benefit was that it made A LOT of clean air. I remember Matt Baker boasting that on one cold night they could put a foot of snow down on the entire length of Kamikazee. It also made oil free air - unlike the old diesel compressors they used initially. This made the snow more natural.

As this was a prototype machine it required a lot of nursing during the initial winters, and I can remember my dad and his team spending many long evenings keeping it and the snowmaking operations running. The thrill for me was that my Dad's hard work did not go unrecognized, and for many years running, management gave both me and my Dad complementary PREFERRED LIFT LINE SEASON PASSES. This was a real status symbol and in the days of the 45 minute lift line it was a good thing to have.

arc1
01-13-2009, 08:58 PM
Very sorry to see Win's response on this. The Bush has a reputation as a legit skier's mountain, and this policy reeks. The Claybrook first mindset caters to a miniscule percentage of the skiers on the hill while pissing off everyone else who is heavily invested in condos, houses, programs and all. Why the new money gets the good stuff at the expense of the folks who have been floating this place eludes me.

The pendulum has swung too far. Seen the apres menu at Timbers? Who doesn't want a plate of humus after skiing? During the holidays all these swell parties were going on while the snowguns were far too quiet and you needed hockey skates to get around the hi . No matter how cool the parties, if the skiing doesn't measure up no matter how nice the digs don't expect visitors to return.

I'd like to see focus on our decaying infrastructure - I have a feeling that might help business.

HowieT2
01-13-2009, 09:29 PM
Very sorry to see Win's response on this. The Bush has a reputation as a legit skier's mountain, and this policy reeks. The Claybrook first mindset caters to a miniscule percentage of the skiers on the hill while pissing off everyone else who is heavily invested in condos, houses, programs and all. Why the new money gets the good stuff at the expense of the folks who have been floating this place eludes me.

The pendulum has swung too far. Seen the apres menu at Timbers? Who doesn't want a plate of humus after skiing? During the holidays all these swell parties were going on while the snowguns were far too quiet and you needed hockey skates to get around the hi . No matter how cool the parties, if the skiing doesn't measure up no matter how nice the digs don't expect visitors to return.

I'd like to see focus on our decaying infrastructure - I have a feeling that might help business.

not to be repetitive, but speak for yourself. This doesn't piss "everyone" off, only a vocal minority like yourself .
If you really want to see investment in infrastructure, where do you think the money is going to come from. As previously mentioned (see Woodsman,Tin), mountain operations generate only modest profits in a good year on thin margins. The only way to pay for a new GH lodge, was through selling claybrook. Similarly, the only way there is going to be a new GS lodge, VH lift, etc. is to sell the remainder of the claybrook shares and build and sell more living units. There isn't a ski operation in the world that does capital improvements without selling real estate.

and i like humus. got a problem with that?

ScoobySnack
01-13-2009, 10:03 PM
Thanks for responding, Win. Much applause for your continued presence on this board and particularly for joining the fray on this issue.
Those of us who find the policy disappointing really don't really expect it to be retracted at this point of course, but surely you can understand the position that this creates a separate class of skier on the mountain, which goes against what many people love about a place like Sugarbush. The key here is "on the mountain". You reference that this perk is not much different that access to the pool and hot tub, but nobody purchases a ticket/season pass expecting to have access to the pool or hot tub at CB. We did, however, pretty much expect to be treated equally with all other Sugarbush guests while on the mountain.
You and others have referenced that this is not really expected to cause any real inconvenience if lift lines to non-CB skiers, but on busy weekend/holidays when CB is full, it could add an additional 500 or more people or so with line-cut privileges at the two most popular lifts (depending on how many cut passes per share/rental). Would that really be negligible? (I'm genuinely asking, not being sarcastic).
The fact that this topic seems to be headed to be the most widely read thread ever on the board demonstrates that this is an issue to many. Speaking for myself, I understand and accept it (no choice of course), but request that SV consider why this is a concern as well.
Thanks.

barkbiter
01-13-2009, 10:27 PM
Is Dawn Patrol a girl or a guy with a girls name ? :shock:

Tin Woodsman
01-13-2009, 11:59 PM
You and others have referenced that this is not really expected to cause any real inconvenience if lift lines to non-CB skiers, but on busy weekend/holidays when CB is full, it could add an additional 500 or more people or so with line-cut privileges at the two most popular lifts (depending on how many cut passes per share/rental). Would that really be negligible? (I'm genuinely asking, not being sarcastic).

Is it too much to ask to read back through the thread and get the numbers? Having read what I've already posted here, I don't see hwo anyone could come up with the notion that there could be even close to 500 people on the mountain with the line cutting passes.

61 units
144 total bedrooms

Your 500 estimate would imply that:

1) All 61 units are sold
2) All 61 units are occupied on that weekend
3) There are 3.5 people in each and every bedroom (not unit - bedroom) who are in the owner's nuclear family.

None of those assumptions are true, and some of them are grossly inaccurate, even if this were Utah.

You're looking at about 100-150 people max at any given time. A few will be at North. A few will be in the lodge. Many will be elsewhere on the mountain. Very few will actually be noticeable cutting the lift line at SB and GH.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 07:41 AM
Well looks like the hand writing is on the wall... For those who don't think it will have an impact, win is already elluding the new residences will have the same cutter pass... It's a shame we'll have to persue this from a monetary, legal and publicity stance...

arc1
01-14-2009, 07:55 AM
[and i like humus. got a problem with that?[/quote]

I'm a chicken wing and nacho guy myself. I'd take your resort economics lesson more seriously, but you showed on a previous thread that you didn't know a snowfence when you saw it, and I do have a problem with that.

HowieT2
01-14-2009, 08:10 AM
[and i like humus. got a problem with that?

I'm a chicken wing and nacho guy myself. I'd take your resort economics lesson more seriously, but you showed on a previous thread that you didn't know a snowfence when you saw it, and I do have a problem with that.[/quote]

I didn't realize humus and chicken wings/nachos were mutually exclusive. I happen to like them all. In fact, I make some mean grilled wings. But I digress. Are you saying, that there is enough money to be made on ski operations to pay for all the capital improvements that we want to see. Please enlighten me.

summitchallenger
01-14-2009, 08:21 AM
I think that this has really been blown out of proportion. If anything, having Clay Brook means that there is some subsidy for our passes. Just look up the road at Stowe: they were $1450 early buy for a full season pass, and that rate jumped up to $1,800 after October. We are paying what, $950-$1,000 for a full pass?

It's not like they are restricting parts of the mountain for just Clay Brook skiers and riders.

arc1
01-14-2009, 08:29 AM
[and i like humus. got a problem with that?

I'm a chicken wing and nacho guy myself. I'd take your resort economics lesson more seriously, but you showed on a previous thread that you didn't know a snowfence when you saw it, and I do have a problem with that.

I didn't realize humus and chicken wings/nachos were mutually exclusive. I happen to like them all. In fact, I make some mean grilled wings. But I digress. Are you saying, that there is enough money to be made on ski operations to pay for all the capital improvements that we want to see. Please enlighten me.[/quote]
Not at all what I'm saying. Obviously we need the development to pay for further improvements. I'm all for Claybrook and despite the cutesy menu even like Timbers. I welcome further development. Creating a caste system really rubs me the wrong way. Like I said earlier, it's just sleazy.

Hawk
01-14-2009, 08:36 AM
I was wondering when Win would chime in and fully expected his response. It is exactly what I said earlier.

To be straight up, I have absolutely no problem with this policy because it does not affect me in any way. By this I mean that the Claybrook people in the Ski School line do not constitute even a minimal increase in line time. I also do not think that future units will affect the line either. I am not slighted, degraded or put out in any way and this certainly does not make me a second class citizen. In conversations within my circles at the mountain this is the general sentiment so it seems to be a non issue with a large number of level headed people.

As for the equality of people at our mountain I will say this. Prior to this issue there was plenty of elitism to start with. SB is far from a blue collar mountain. How many times have you been in the lift line corral and had people cut you off and ignore you when you are supposed to alternate. Then they give you an attitude. Those are the real "cutters".

Personally I think that the Elitists have been trumped by the Claybrookers and that goes up their A$$.

Finally I have to say that there are bigger issues to tackle that do affect me. Getting the Guest Services lodge built so we can properly house and operate the ski school, rentals and other programs. Upgrading the failing lifts and aging snow making system. Scouting out and finding all of the bush pilots secret stashes... :wink:

So say what you want. I am done with this as are many others. :wink: Hawk out!

Go Figure
01-14-2009, 08:41 AM
Stowe pass is more because people will pay for more. IE. better snowmaking early and recovery,a pass that promises two lift connected mountains and delivers on that promise. A strong chamber that has interesting on and off mountain activities for the guests when not skiing.Nice base lodges, have you been in the north lodge lately?

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 08:53 AM
Not to mention a full price pass here is $1400....

Everyone I spoke to thinks this is bs. If Sugarbush gets a 170 day season (long) with 300,000 skier days, thats roughly 1750 skiers per day at sugarbush. Claybrook Cutters could make up 10% of all skiers on a given day.

No worries Win, you dont' need to apologize, and I won't apologize for telling everyone I know about your policy..

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 08:54 AM
Are there any MRG Coop members here? Do you cut the regular day pass holders in line??

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 08:59 AM
No worries barkbiter, I wouldn't expect you to know what a dawn patrol was...

bill-now
01-14-2009, 09:00 AM
Since Dawn Patrol once wrote about hit his head on the urinal shelf I'm gonna assume Dawn is a he.

I think that lift line priority should be extended to those who purchase one day lift tickets; after all, they are paying the most for that particular days skiing. Everyone else with a season pass is skiing on a substantial discount.

As a CB owner, I was surprised at this additional benefit; I personally would prefer that all of us be treated equally once we leave our lodging. It does have the potential to create bad feelings but the real world impact is minimal. I also see this as one additional perk that will hopefully result in a 100% sales at CB.

Dawn Patrol, first track privileges are available to you; from the SB website:

"Powder-Day First Tracks: “When it’s snowing, we’re going,” is the motto here. The decision will be made the afternoon before and will be posted on the snow report.

Any-Day First Tracks: Just because it isn’t scheduled, doesn’t mean we won’t go. Put together a group of two or more, let us know you want to go by noon the day before, and we’ll take you up the hill for some early morning skiing and riding."

You could also join the ski patrol; they get to ski both before and after the lifts are closed.

See you all on the slopes; it's all good here!

MntMan4Bush
01-14-2009, 09:01 AM
"I was wondering when Win would chime in and fully expected his response. It is exactly what I said earlier.

To be straight up, I have absolutely no problem with this policy because it does not affect me in any way. By this I mean that the Claybrook people in the Ski School line do not constitute even a minimal increase in line time. I also do not think that future units will affect the line either. I am not slighted, degraded or put out in any way and this certainly does not make me a second class citizen. In conversations within my circles at the mountain this is the general sentiment so it seems to be a non issue with a large number of level headed people. "

I'm so impressed with how much foresight you have to call what Win's response would be. And I'm sure Win is sipping a big dram of scotch in relief that he his decision aligned with your previous wisdom.

It's good that your not upset about his as you've clearly stated but some are. For anyone to say that they know what the majority thinks or to categorize either group as the minority group of complainers or complaisant is nothing but uneducated pondering. Something I'd expect splashed on the front page of The New York Times. The fact is that there is a group that feels the other way. For me it's not that I think it will put me 1 or 2 chairs back in the queue. Those people will probably be at the top, in the way, sitting in front of the off ramp adjusting boots, boards, gloves etc as I ski around them and track before them. Hell I rarely even use SB or GH, but only when I'm trying to get to an upper mountain lift. I just don't like that we're creating this system for a minority of people while it's not open for everyone. As a record even if it were open I'd rather spend my money on another few beers, but at least it would be an option for those ho would want it. That's not the case now and we're raising CB people up on a pedestal because they bought property. Big deal. SB was around long before them. (I want to note here I am not faulting the CB owners for this attitude. They're not the ones perpetuating it, SV is). The revenue produced from their sales will certainly help and we've seen some improvements already, but I'd rather have improvements that focus on the infrastructure of the mountain and not ones that cater to just the owners. Let's look at what we've done changed. We have the new base lodge and CRP, the condo units and Timbers, early and late skiing moved to South and Cat skiing. Who do these mostly cater to? Sure they're available to everyone, but who was in mind when they were built? Let's continue looking. Northridge has been down more times it's been up. I haven't even been on it all season and without it North is useless. North Lynx chair hasn't spun all season. (Maybe one or two days). Snowmaking....I won't even start. From all these sales what's improved the ski-ability of the mountain? So now sure. Let's cater once again to CB. Anything for a buck.

vonski
01-14-2009, 09:04 AM
.

No worries Win, you dont' need to apologize, and I won't apologize for telling everyone I know about your policy..

please do tell your friends. I personally would not want to ski with you or them as they must be whicked whiners. my ears would be hurting by the end of the lift ride. Get over it! go join to MRG would ya!

jwt
01-14-2009, 09:04 AM
Ask yourself this question: If there were no real estate opportunities at the mountain, would SV have purchased the place? We all know the answer to that. Why is capitalism and individual freedom to do what one wants with their own property so hammered much of the time?

Many mountains to ski, on and off National Forest Land. And to even threaten to sue over access is the exact problem with the litigious ( sp?) society. I climb in summer, mostly NH - about 15 years ago they put a HANDICAPPED ACCESS ramp to Galehead Hut ( AMC) so someone could pull up a poor dude who was wheelchair bound up 4 or 5 miles and then he could wheel himself up the ramp at 4500 feet?

Hey , I guess as long as I'm not paying for it - but somehow $65 a night at the hut hints of paying for it! What a waste of wood. I sleep in a Kelty, and it's free.

We can't please everyone and no one wants unhappy clients, but if one doesn;t like something, they are free to go elsewhere.

Tin and I both mentioned most likley less than 100 'cutters' would be out at one time/10 or so lifts, that's 10 people or 3 chairs every 20 minutes. Hawk had it right - leave the string to die.

rfm
01-14-2009, 09:05 AM
It really is Win’s decision and he has to run his business the way he sees fit. I've been up at SB maybe not as long as most of you but I have been there since SV took over. In my opinion there has been lots of improvement. Win has always been very responsive to what has been posted here and has even implemented some of the suggestions. Other suggestions he hasn't but I believe he has always tried to give his customers the best experience possible.

I don't agree with this one I think the lift line is a place where everyone regardless of skiing ability or economic standing waited their turn (for the most part). :roll:




But I agree with Win, the impact from a wait time experience should be minimal. I would think however there is potential for a greater impact, if the policy permits Clay Brook owners to bring friends/guests and if so does the Liftie have to police that line as well? :shock:

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 09:17 AM
Since Dawn Patrol once wrote about hit his head on the urinal shelf I'm gonna assume Dawn is a he.

I think that lift line priority should be extended to those who purchase one day lift tickets; after all, they are paying the most for that particular days skiing. Everyone else with a season pass is skiing on a substantial discount.

As a CB owner, I was surprised at this additional benefit; I personally would prefer that all of us be treated equally once we leave our lodging. It does have the potential to create bad feelings but the real world impact is minimal. I also see this as one additional perk that will hopefully result in a 100% sales at CB.

Dawn Patrol, first track privileges are available to you; from the SB website:

"Powder-Day First Tracks: “When it’s snowing, we’re going,” is the motto here. The decision will be made the afternoon before and will be posted on the snow report.

Any-Day First Tracks: Just because it isn’t scheduled, doesn’t mean we won’t go. Put together a group of two or more, let us know you want to go by noon the day before, and we’ll take you up the hill for some early morning skiing and riding."

You could also join the ski patrol; they get to ski both before and after the lifts are closed.

See you all on the slopes; it's all good here!

Any word on how much they are charging for first tracks?

And I never said I hit my head on the glove rack... Not sure where you got that from...

bill-now
01-14-2009, 09:21 AM
"I would think however there is potential for a greater impact, if the policy permits Clay Brook owners to bring friends/guests and if so does the Liftie have to police that line as well?"

The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit.

Why aren't you guys out skiing?

bill-now
01-14-2009, 09:31 AM
Dawn patrol, my bad, it was some one else who banged their melon on the shelf.

I think cost of the first tracks is $75. A LOT cheaper than a CB unit, if that's all you want. More info at:

http://www.sugarbush.com/vermont-skiing-snowboarding/groomer-rides

ScoobySnack
01-14-2009, 09:35 AM
You and others have referenced that this is not really expected to cause any real inconvenience if lift lines to non-CB skiers, but on busy weekend/holidays when CB is full, it could add an additional 500 or more people or so with line-cut privileges at the two most popular lifts (depending on how many cut passes per share/rental). Would that really be negligible? (I'm genuinely asking, not being sarcastic).

Is it too much to ask to read back through the thread and get the numbers? Having read what I've already posted here, I don't see hwo anyone could come up with the notion that there could be even close to 500 people on the mountain with the line cutting passes.

61 units
144 total bedrooms

Your 500 estimate would imply that:

1) All 61 units are sold
2) All 61 units are occupied on that weekend
3) There are 3.5 people in each and every bedroom (not unit - bedroom) who are in the owner's nuclear family.

None of those assumptions are true, and some of them are grossly inaccurate, even if this were Utah.

You're looking at about 100-150 people max at any given time. A few will be at North. A few will be in the lodge. Many will be elsewhere on the mountain. Very few will actually be noticeable cutting the lift line at SB and GH.

Tin, I'm estimating that # based on the fact that kids count. Studios and 1 BRs = 4-5 people (2 adults and 2-3 kids), 2BRs=6 people, #brs = 8, etc. And during holiday weekends, yes I am assuming that these are all occupied/rented. This alone makes over 400 people. Furthermore, this is a perk to owners who are not currently staying at Claybrook at the time. As it has been noted that many CB owners are also Vermonters, this adds to the list. So I did not pull 500 people out of the air, I did the math, and think it is sound with the assumption that the units would be filled to reasonable capacity.

rfm
01-14-2009, 09:36 AM
"I would think however there is potential for a greater impact, if the policy permits Clay Brook owners to bring friends/guests and if so does the Liftie have to police that line as well?"

The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit.

Why aren't you guys out skiing?

Thanks

Fair enough and at least for me time to move on....

madhavok
01-14-2009, 09:43 AM
Why do people keep GUESSING there are only a small number of cutter passes? There is no way to possibly know because there are too many variables!

How many passes are allowed per unit or per bed? Do sofa bed sleepers count? Or do any family members with the same last name qualify? How many units are only quarter share ownership? If they all were, and they gave out only 2 passes per bedroom you’re looking at 144 bedrooms x 2 people per bed x 4 (quarter share ownership) = 1152 total passes!

And since many Claybrook owners already own a home in Vermont do you really think their only skiing one out of every 4 weeks?

Now the real impact is going to be when this privilege is extended to the other residences they plan of building.

ScoobySnack
01-14-2009, 09:49 AM
Ok, I retract my previous post. It was based on the fact that I was under the impression that this applied to renters as well as owners. That is where my #s came from. If this perk is for owners only, then my apologies for adding any more fuel. I still disagree philosophically, but agree that it really probably will not make a significant impact as the program appears to be somewhat limited. It's not worth the aggravation, though at least drawing attention to the slippery slope (no pun intended - really) potential of this is still pertinent.

gone.skiing
01-14-2009, 10:11 AM
And I never said I hit my head on the glove rack... Not sure where you got that from...

Your posts in this thread give that impression.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 10:18 AM
Let's look at what we've changed. We have the new base lodge and CRP, the condo units and Timbers, early and late skiing moved to South and Cat skiing. Who do these mostly cater to? Sure they're available to everyone, but who was in mind when they were built? Let's continue looking. Northridge has been down more times it's been up. I haven't even been on it all season and without it North is useless. North Lynx chair hasn't spun all season. (Maybe one or two days). Snowmaking....I won't even start. From all these sales what's improved the ski-ability of the mountain? So now sure. Let's cater once again to CB. Anything for a buck.

I agree with this 100%

Everyone here bills CB owners as saviors meanwhile near all of the costly upgrades have been catered directly at them, not the skier.... And now they get to cut the skiers in line too...

Any word from an MRG CoOp member on whether or not they cut the day pass holders there? After all, the coop owners at MRG surely float a higher percentage of MRG than Claybrook owners do Sugarbush....

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Not to mention a full price pass here is $1400....

Everyone I spoke to thinks this is bs. If Sugarbush gets a 170 day season (long) with 300,000 skier days, thats roughly 1750 skiers per day at sugarbush. Claybrook Cutters could make up 10% of all skiers on a given day.

No worries Win, you dont' need to apologize, and I won't apologize for telling everyone I know about your policy..

Your math continues to astound and disappoint. You've taken the highest possible estimate of Claybrook users and then compared that with a figure that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. While the average may be 1750, as I'm sure you well know, the majority of those skier visits occur on weekends and holidays. The numbers are more likely to be 500 or so on a typical weekday and 3000-4000 or more on a typical weekend/holiday. As discussed previously, it is unlikely that you would ever see more than 100-150 Clay Brook owners on the hill on any given weekend, and the more I think about it, the more I think that even that number is high. So in reality, you're looking at a 3-5% increase, at most, and of course a 0% impact on all lifts besides GH and SB, which any jamoke knows to avoid at rush hour.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Well looks like the hand writing is on the wall... For those who don't think it will have an impact, win is already elluding the new residences will have the same cutter pass... It's a shame we'll have to persue this from a monetary, legal and publicity stance...

Good luck with that law suit.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 10:39 AM
http://www.sugarbush.com/about-vermont-resort/future-plans



Most importantly, we are committed to placing our [Claybrook owning] guest’s interest first and making sure that we are a place where all of our [Claybrook owning] guests feel appreciated at all times.


Fixed it for you Win!

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 10:40 AM
Why do people keep GUESSING there are only a small number of cutter passes? There is no way to possibly know because there are too many variables!

How many passes are allowed per unit or per bed? Do sofa bed sleepers count? Or do any family members with the same last name qualify? How many units are only quarter share ownership? If they all were, and they gave out only 2 passes per bedroom you’re looking at 144 bedrooms x 2 people per bed x 4 (quarter share ownership) = 1152 total passes!

And since many Claybrook owners already own a home in Vermont do you really think their only skiing one out of every 4 weeks?

Now the real impact is going to be when this privilege is extended to the other residences they plan of building.

Even if you assume that there are two people for each bed, which is nonsense (there are singles, couples with no kids, couples with one kid, and empty nesters who own units), you then have to factor in that each unit can only be occupied by one owner at a time. Moreover, not all 144 bedrooms have owners in the first place, as 9 of the 61 units have no owners at all. The only factor countering all of that is that 25% of owners have a home somewhere else in VT. Are we to assume that all of those are at SB every weekend and are using their passes? You guys are so busy getting worked up into hysteria over this that you've lost the ability to think straight.

madhavok
01-14-2009, 10:40 AM
Not to mention a full price pass here is $1400....

Everyone I spoke to thinks this is bs. If Sugarbush gets a 170 day season (long) with 300,000 skier days, thats roughly 1750 skiers per day at sugarbush. Claybrook Cutters could make up 10% of all skiers on a given day.

No worries Win, you dont' need to apologize, and I won't apologize for telling everyone I know about your policy..

Your math continues to astound and disappoint. You've taken the highest possible estimate of Claybrook users and then compared that with a figure that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. While the average may be 1750, as I'm sure you well know, the majority of those skier visits occur on weekends and holidays. The numbers are more likely to be 500 or so on a typical weekday and 3000-4000 or more on a typical weekend/holiday. As discussed previously, it is unlikely that you would ever see more than 100-150 Clay Brook owners on the hill on any given weekend, and the more I think about it, the more I think that even that number is high. So in reality, you're looking at a 3-5% increase, at most, and of course a 0% impact on all lifts besides GH and SB, which any jamoke knows to avoid at rush hour.

I'm sure Sugarbush can figure the exact number of clay cutters from the scanning info they collect. Oh wait, the cutter line doesn't get scanned, not like the scanners work anyway.

Tin you claim there will be 0% impact from Claybrook on all lifts besides GH and SB? Now what is going to stop these privileged people from using the ski patrol / school line on the other lifts or at North? Especially since we only have lift line attendants at the base.

WWF-VT
01-14-2009, 10:41 AM
Not to mention a full price pass here is $1400....

Everyone I spoke to thinks this is bs. If Sugarbush gets a 170 day season (long) with 300,000 skier days, thats roughly 1750 skiers per day at sugarbush. Claybrook Cutters could make up 10% of all skiers on a given day.

No worries Win, you dont' need to apologize, and I won't apologize for telling everyone I know about your policy..

Your math continues to astound and disappoint. You've taken the highest possible estimate of Claybrook users and then compared that with a figure that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. While the average may be 1750, as I'm sure you well know, the majority of those skier visits occur on weekends and holidays. The numbers are more likely to be 500 or so on a typical weekday and 3000-4000 or more on a typical weekend/holiday. As discussed previously, it is unlikely that you would ever see more than 100-150 Clay Brook owners on the hill on any given weekend, and the more I think about it, the more I think that even that number is high. So in reality, you're looking at a 3-5% increase, at most, and of course a 0% impact on all lifts besides GH and SB, which any jamoke knows to avoid at rush hour.

I agree with Tin Woodsman on a low estimate of numbers using these passes. I have witnessed first hand on the recent holiday weekends the very small number of CB passholders in the ski school line. Lines are generally not a problem at Sugarbush. On the busiest day of the Xmas break I think the longest line I was in at Super Bravo chair was less than 15 minutes and that was because HG and Castlerock were not running.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 10:44 AM
Not to mention a full price pass here is $1400....

Everyone I spoke to thinks this is bs. If Sugarbush gets a 170 day season (long) with 300,000 skier days, thats roughly 1750 skiers per day at sugarbush. Claybrook Cutters could make up 10% of all skiers on a given day.

No worries Win, you dont' need to apologize, and I won't apologize for telling everyone I know about your policy..

Your math continues to astound and disappoint. You've taken the highest possible estimate of Claybrook users and then compared that with a figure that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. While the average may be 1750, as I'm sure you well know, the majority of those skier visits occur on weekends and holidays. The numbers are more likely to be 500 or so on a typical weekday and 3000-4000 or more on a typical weekend/holiday. As discussed previously, it is unlikely that you would ever see more than 100-150 Clay Brook owners on the hill on any given weekend, and the more I think about it, the more I think that even that number is high. So in reality, you're looking at a 3-5% increase, at most, and of course a 0% impact on all lifts besides GH and SB, which any jamoke knows to avoid at rush hour.

I agree with Tin Woodsman on a low estimate of numbers using these passes. I have witnessed first hand on the recent holiday weekends the very small number of CB passholders in the ski school line. Lines are generally not a problem at Sugarbush. On the busiest day of the Xmas break I think the longest line I was in at Super Bravo chair was less than 15 minutes and that was because HG and Castlerock were not running.

So I take 10 runs, I have to wait on the line for 2.5 hours and Claybrook Cutters don't... Seems fair.

madhavok
01-14-2009, 10:50 AM
Why do people keep GUESSING there are only a small number of cutter passes? There is no way to possibly know because there are too many variables!

How many passes are allowed per unit or per bed? Do sofa bed sleepers count? Or do any family members with the same last name qualify? How many units are only quarter share ownership? If they all were, and they gave out only 2 passes per bedroom you’re looking at 144 bedrooms x 2 people per bed x 4 (quarter share ownership) = 1152 total passes!

And since many Claybrook owners already own a home in Vermont do you really think their only skiing one out of every 4 weeks?

Now the real impact is going to be when this privilege is extended to the other residences they plan of building.

Even if you assume that there are two people for each bed, which is nonsense (there are singles, couples with no kids, couples with one kid, and empty nesters who own units), you then have to factor in that each unit can only be occupied by one owner at a time. Moreover, not all 144 bedrooms have owners in the first place, as 9 of the 61 units have no owners at all. The only factor countering all of that is that 25% of owners have a home somewhere else in VT. Are we to assume that all of those are at SB every weekend and are using their passes? You guys are so busy getting worked up into hysteria over this that you've lost the ability to think straight.


You don’t get it do you? My point is your argument of only a small number of Claybrook passes is only a GUESS at best. You can make up any small number with a magical equation, or as I proved you can make a big number.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 10:57 AM
That's not the case now and we're raising CB people up on a pedestal because they bought property. Big deal. SB was around long before them. (I want to note here I am not faulting the CB owners for this attitude. They're not the ones perpetuating it, SV is).
Let's talk about that. Do you find it at all interesting that SV is the 4th ownership group since 1984? What does that tell you about the economics of running SB? If you think that mountain operations alone are enough to generate the funds necessary for the upgrades that everyone knows are needed, then you're just not paying attention. I think it's fair to say that Win isn't in this to get rich - he already is. But he isn't a charity either, nor should he be expected to. Let's face it - SB will never have the cache (or snow or terrain or town) of Stowe, and it's an hour too far for most people from NYC. It's got more terrain than Okemo yet generates less than half the skier visits. While this produces the better skiing surfaces and the less hurried vibe that many of us are attracted to, that does not necessarily make for a good business model. Unless you have any better ideas, I'm not sure where the money for the needed upgrades are coming from w/o having a material impact on the SB skiing population (i.e. raising ticket/pass prices by 20%, paid parking, $150 cutter passes - crap ideas all)


The revenue produced from their sales will certainly help and we've seen some improvements already, but I'd rather have improvements that focus on the infrastructure of the mountain and not ones that cater to just the owners. Let's look at what we've done changed. We have the new base lodge and CRP, the condo units and Timbers, early and late skiing moved to South and Cat skiing. Who do these mostly cater to? Sure they're available to everyone, but who was in mind when they were built? Let's continue looking. Northridge has been down more times it's been up. I haven't even been on it all season and without it North is useless. North Lynx chair hasn't spun all season. (Maybe one or two days). Snowmaking....I won't even start. From all these sales what's improved the ski-ability of the mountain? So now sure. Let's cater once again to CB. Anything for a buck.

Some hits and some misses here. There have been changes that cater to both groups:

1) New GMX - everyone
2) New CR chair with same capacity - everyone
3) New GH lodge and CRP - everyone
4) New high efficiency snow guns on key trails - everyone (when they spend the money to make snow)
5) Early/late season at South - CB only
6) Cat skiing - everyone, as far as I know

Next on the agenda, in some order, are a revamp of the snowmaking system, the GS lodges (there are now two instead of one), and replacement of VH and NRX chairs. Even assuming no much-needed increase in the snowmaking budget (as opposed to capital), that's about $20MM in projects right there.

New VH chair - $1.5MM
New NRX - $4.0MM
GS Lodges - $10MM
Snowmaking upgrade (new ponds, new guns, more pumping capacity) - $5.0MM

THEY AREN'T GETTING THAT MONEY FROM TICKET SALES, PEOPLE!

gone.skiing
01-14-2009, 10:57 AM
We are speaking from experience over the vacation week when it was not an issue. You are just making $hit up.

10 runs on Gate House? WTF?

jwt
01-14-2009, 10:58 AM
Pretty obvious that some of these guys would rather work for the guy who loads the software in the box as opposed to Bill Gates.

If you REALLY want to know who benefits by capitalists, let's look at the Town of Warren - huge tax revenues where there were none or little before. JOBS! How many more jobs are created by CB/Timbers/etc while the state and local tax revenues are enhanced because of the income that is taxed, the housing that is taxed where they live, and the food is taxed where they eat.

So to slam private entities like SV for trying to turn a dollar is just un-American. If we did not have those folks some are referring to as the elite or wealthy, we would not have the place to ski. Heck , even NH recognized the state does a poor job of running a business and has the Muellers running Sunapee and look at the transformation! If anyone had been there prior to the private enterprise given a chance to make money ( oh look! With REAL ESTATE investment!!) you'd know it was still in the 1960's as far as facilities go.

I'm just more and more educated on why the ( supposed) majority think that free markets are not as efficient as public, not for profit entities are.

I only want to know some efficient operation that is free of private investment. Just one. I'm no expert, but human nature plays a large part of efficent operations - like getting to keep your job. Once guaranteed quality is doomed, service is doomed, and efficiency is doomed.

All this points to people of all tyoes like to be outdoors and ski. I can't afford heli-skiing, or to build and invest oin ski condos, but I'm sure happy someone was, because we have all benefited by it - even those who don't ski. Envy is not healthy. if and When it gets too hard to get on a chair, we'll all leave for somewhere else.

Or purchase the place from SV like Mad River did from Betsy. Will be a little more that $1700 each though.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:02 AM
We are speaking from experience over the vacation week when it was not an issue. You are just making $hit up.

10 runs on Gate House? WTF?

10 Runs on Bravo no problem.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 11:02 AM
I agree with Tin Woodsman on a low estimate of numbers using these passes. I have witnessed first hand on the recent holiday weekends the very small number of CB passholders in the ski school line. Lines are generally not a problem at Sugarbush. On the busiest day of the Xmas break I think the longest line I was in at Super Bravo chair was less than 15 minutes and that was because HG and Castlerock were not running.

So I take 10 runs, I have to wait on the line for 2.5 hours and Claybrook Cutters don't... Seems fair.
Right, because CR and HG are usually down and that would represent a reasonable estimate for an average weekend. Makes sense.

You know very well that at the worst of times, lines at GH and SB are 10 minutes long during rush hour. Since you've been here 24 years, you're either blithely unaware of your surroundings, or being disingenuous by using peak hour numbers as a reasonable baseline for projecting the impact.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 11:05 AM
You don’t get it do you? My point is your argument of only a small number of Claybrook passes is only a GUESS at best. You can make up any small number with a magical equation, or as I proved you can make a big number.
I think I get it pretty clearly. I am using reasonable estimates based on known numbers. These estimates happen to dove tail with observations on the ground indicating that very few people are actually using these.

You are using voodoo math that can easily be picked apart to spin a worse than worst case scenario just b/c you're hysterical over this change. I'll be very happy to compare and contrast our estimates on a point by point basis.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 11:09 AM
We are speaking from experience over the vacation week when it was not an issue. You are just making $hit up.

10 runs on Gate House? WTF?

10 Runs on Bravo no problem.
Really? you often take 10 runs on Bravo during busy holiday weeks rather than use other chairs with shorter lines? What exactly have you learned about skiing at SB over the last 24 years? If this is your typical experience, the answer has to be "not much". I suspect you're just being disingenuous and using an extreme example to try and make your point. Unfortunately, your example is so divorced from the reality on the ground as to be irrelevant and worthless.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:11 AM
That's not the case now and we're raising CB people up on a pedestal because they bought property. Big deal. SB was around long before them. (I want to note here I am not faulting the CB owners for this attitude. They're not the ones perpetuating it, SV is).
Let's talk about that. Do you find it at all interesting that SV is the 4th ownership group since 1984? What does that tell you about the economics of running SB? If you think that mountain operations alone are enough to generate the funds necessary for the upgrades that everyone knows are needed, then you're just not paying attention. I think it's fair to say that Win isn't in this to get rich - he already is. But he isn't a charity either, nor should he be expected to. Let's face it - SB will never have the cache (or snow or terrain or town) of Stowe, and it's an hour too far for most people from NYC. It's got more terrain than Okemo yet generates less than half the skier visits. While this produces the better skiing surfaces and the less hurried vibe that many of us are attracted to, that does not necessarily make for a good business model. Unless you have any better ideas, I'm not sure where the money for the needed upgrades are coming from w/o having a material impact on the SB skiing population (i.e. raising ticket/pass prices by 20%, paid parking, $150 cutter passes - crap ideas all)


The revenue produced from their sales will certainly help and we've seen some improvements already, but I'd rather have improvements that focus on the infrastructure of the mountain and not ones that cater to just the owners. Let's look at what we've done changed. We have the new base lodge and CRP, the condo units and Timbers, early and late skiing moved to South and Cat skiing. Who do these mostly cater to? Sure they're available to everyone, but who was in mind when they were built? Let's continue looking. Northridge has been down more times it's been up. I haven't even been on it all season and without it North is useless. North Lynx chair hasn't spun all season. (Maybe one or two days). Snowmaking....I won't even start. From all these sales what's improved the ski-ability of the mountain? So now sure. Let's cater once again to CB. Anything for a buck.

Some hits and some misses here. There have been changes that cater to both groups:

1) New GMX - everyone
2) New CR chair with same capacity - everyone
3) New GH lodge and CRP - everyone
4) New high efficiency snow guns on key trails - everyone (when they spend the money to make snow)
5) Early/late season at South - CB only
6) Cat skiing - everyone, as far as I know

Next on the agenda, in some order, are a revamp of the snowmaking system, the GS lodges (there are now two instead of one), and replacement of VH and NRX chairs. Even assuming no much-needed increase in the snowmaking budget (as opposed to capital), that's about $20MM in projects right there.

New VH chair - $1.5MM
New NRX - $4.0MM
GS Lodges - $10MM
Snowmaking upgrade (new ponds, new guns, more pumping capacity) - $5.0MM

THEY AREN'T GETTING THAT MONEY FROM TICKET SALES, PEOPLE!

Assuming your numbers, with a 20% profit on CB, and 80% sold their profit from CB was 8 mil. you just said the new GS lodge would be 10 million, so assume that for GH.

10 MM GH
1.5 MM Castlerock chair
250k Lincoln limo (lets face it mainly for CB owners)
4 MM GMX
Chump change for new nozzles I'm sure.

Close to $19 Million Dollars, of which 8 at best came from Claybrook. So Claybrook didn't even fund the changes you listed that already happened, but its going to also cover the future improvements??

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:14 AM
You don’t get it do you? My point is your argument of only a small number of Claybrook passes is only a GUESS at best. You can make up any small number with a magical equation, or as I proved you can make a big number.
I think I get it pretty clearly. I am using reasonable estimates based on known numbers. These estimates happen to dove tail with observations on the ground indicating that very few people are actually using these.

You are using voodoo math that can easily be picked apart to spin a worse than worst case scenario just b/c you're hysterical over this change. I'll be very happy to compare and contrast our estimates on a point by point basis.

His point is you have no clue. Which is correct. The very basis of your calcutations is a complete random guess. Do you KNOW that all claybrook owners receive one cutter card? You know for 100% certain they aren't given 5 or 10. I haven't seen anything in writing anywhere.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:23 AM
Tin would like everyone to think that Claybrook is our saviour... All these wonderful improvements would be impossible without them. After all, Sugarbush made about $8 MM of profit on their sale, and somehow we get to thank them for near $40 MM of recent and future improvements!

madhavok
01-14-2009, 11:28 AM
Obviously there are like 2 or 3 people in this thread who are adamantly in favor of this policy. If that is your opinion then fine, but your not going to convince everyone else to be hunky dory with the new policy by arguing how minimal of an impact there will be. Nor are you going to convince us that Claybrook owners deserve this privilege because all the “great” things they have single handily done for Sugarbush.

The underlying problems are this.
1. The principle of Claybrook getting to cut because they are better than the public.
2. What is going to happen when this privilege is extended to the future residences are going to be built? I guess the impact won’t be so minimal.
3. I don’t like the idea but if you want a cutter pass then it should be available to all to purchase for a reasonable price. (Any answer such as "well you can buy a Claybrook share" is BS)
4. Lastly as Summit Ventures continues to enhance the country club like experience for Claybrook owners, what will be next? I didn’t see the cutter pass coming so I have no idea what the general public will have to sacrifice next. Could it be private ski terrain like Dawn Patrol has joked about? Who knows!

I don’t think we should wait around to find out what the comprehensive impact of the cutter pass will be. Nor should we wait to see the final accumulation of Claybrook privileges and the sacrifices by the public to make them possible.

This is how I feel on the matter. You can disagree but know this, no matter what reason you have to be in favor of this policy or the significance of it, you have 0% chance of changing my view.

volklmantras
01-14-2009, 11:29 AM
I love coming to this board to check out what folks have to say about the conditions on the mountain...helps get me through the work week and get fired up to hop in the car and head up North to the 'Bush (the - 20 degree temps this weekend do not though!)

But seriously DAWN PATROL if your biggest hang up is that ski school, ski patrol and folks that purchased a condo get to head to the front of the line then cry me a river, go ski someplace else!

Beat it JONG!!!

skituner8
01-14-2009, 11:35 AM
dear dawn patrol....tissues are located at the top of the main stairs to wipe the tears away...and i'm sure the sherpas could give u a shoulder to cry of

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:35 AM
I love coming to this board to check out what folks have to say about the conditions on the mountain...helps get me through the work week and get fired up to hop in the car and head up North to the 'Bush (the - 20 degree temps this weekend do not though!)

But seriously DAWN PATROL if your biggest hang up is that ski school, ski patrol and folks that purchased a condo get to head to the front of the line then cry me a river, go ski someplace else!

Beat it JONG!!!
You have a serious reading comprehension problem if you think I ever said I have a problem with patrol or ski school cutting the line....

And if you have a problem with this thread, beat it JONG!!!!

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 11:36 AM
Assuming your numbers, with a 20% profit on CB, and 80% sold their profit from CB was 8 mil. you just said the new GS lodge would be 10 million, so assume that for GH.

10 MM GH
1.5 MM Castlerock chair
250k Lincoln limo (lets face it mainly for CB owners)
4 MM GMX
Chump change for new nozzles I'm sure.

Close to $19 Million Dollars, of which 8 at best came from Claybrook. So Claybrook didn't even fund the changes you listed that already happened, but its going to also cover the future improvements??

Wow. Your math just gets worse and worse, which is saying something.

First, they don't make 20% profit on each CB unit, you make it on the bldg as a whole. They spent $50MM on it and they make profit when they have covered their costs. The 80% of units sold to date have probably covered their costs, with the remainder being gravy.

Second, they have publically stated that the GH lodge cost $6MM. The GS lodges would presumably cost more b/c they are supposed to be bigger and have more functions within them (i.e. they won't just comprise one big room upstairs). So it's really closer to $15MM.

Third, SV bought SB for a song ($12MM, IIRC), so it made sense to allocate additional capital in the early years to deal with the most egregious issues. In fact, despite ASC dropping $28MM into the place in 1996, it was well known that SB had significant deferred maintenance and ciritcal capital needs - the low acquisition price reflected this. If they were gettign a Cadillac, they would have had to pay more.

Now that initial money has been spent, the lifts have gotten older, and another $20MM is needed to implement their plans. I suppose you expect them to reach into their pockets and fund that. Please don't trot out the argument that if then funded the $15MM, they should also fund the additional $20MM. I'm sure that works for your kids, but not adults in the real world with more zeroes on the end.

So, yeah, the real estate is pretty freaking important to fund the next round of capital improvements.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 11:38 AM
His point is you have no clue. Which is correct. The very basis of your calcutations is a complete random guess. Do you KNOW that all claybrook owners receive one cutter card? You know for 100% certain they aren't given 5 or 10. I haven't seen anything in writing anywhere.
Where have I made a random guess? Please enlighten me.

We KNOW that these cards go ONLY to Clay Brook owners and their immediate family - not friends, not distant relatives, not renters.

Have you seen the lift inspection certificates in writing? I'm sure the answer is "no", so why would you take the chance since you haven't personally inspected it? My God you're reaching.

HowieT2
01-14-2009, 11:40 AM
I'm ready to agree to disagree as this thread is getting tiresome. Although, on second thoughts there isn't much to watch on the weather front so my alternative is to do more work.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:42 AM
Assuming your numbers, with a 20% profit on CB, and 80% sold their profit from CB was 8 mil. you just said the new GS lodge would be 10 million, so assume that for GH.

10 MM GH
1.5 MM Castlerock chair
250k Lincoln limo (lets face it mainly for CB owners)
4 MM GMX
Chump change for new nozzles I'm sure.

Close to $19 Million Dollars, of which 8 at best came from Claybrook. So Claybrook didn't even fund the changes you listed that already happened, but its going to also cover the future improvements??

Wow. Your math just gets worse and worse, which is saying something.

First, they don't make 20% profit on each CB unit, you make it on the bldg as a whole. They spent $50MM on it and they make profit when they have covered their costs. The 80% of units sold to date have probably covered their costs, with the remainder being gravy.

Second, they have publically stated that the GH lodge cost $6MM. The GS lodges would presumably cost more b/c they are supposed to be bigger and have more functions within them (i.e. they won't just comprise one big room upstairs). So it's really closer to $15MM.

Third, SV bought SB for a song ($12MM, IIRC), so it made sense to allocate additional capital in the early years to deal with the most egregious issues. In fact, despite ASC dropping $28MM into the place in 1996, it was well known that SB had significant deferred maintenance and ciritcal capital needs - the low acquisition price reflected this. If they were gettign a Cadillac, they would have had to pay more.

Now that initial money has been spent, the lifts have gotten older, and another $20MM is needed to implement their plans. I suppose you expect them to reach into their pockets and fund that. Please don't trot out the argument that if then funded the $15MM, they should also fund the additional $20MM. I'm sure that works for your kids, but not adults in the real world with more zeroes on the end.

So, yeah, the real estate is pretty freaking important to fund the next round of capital improvements.

You just said, that they'd make 20% on 50MM when all units are sold. Fine, thats 10MM if/when the units are sold. My point exactly. You just cited a whole list of improvements that we have to thank Claybrook for. That added up to much more than 10MM and so do the future improvements. So why are we thanking them so much? You are trying to make it sound as though I said Claybrook should never have been built, or they won't make a profit. I don't care if they build condos. Thats fine. But you and a few others here think we owe our first born to the people who buy claybrook for all these wonderful improvements. Meanwhile, they haven't covered a fraction of the cost of them.

madhavok
01-14-2009, 11:42 AM
His point is you have no clue. Which is correct. The very basis of your calcutations is a complete random guess. Do you KNOW that all claybrook owners receive one cutter card? You know for 100% certain they aren't given 5 or 10. I haven't seen anything in writing anywhere.
Where have I made a random guess? Please enlighten me.

We KNOW that these cards go ONLY to Clay Brook owners and their immediate family - not friends, not distant relatives, not renters.

Have you seen the lift inspection certificates in writing? I'm sure the answer is "no", so why would you take the chance since you haven't personally inspected it? My God you're reaching.

We know cutter passes are only go to Clay owners and their immediate family? Sugarbush checking birth certificates or something?

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:46 AM
If Claybrook is funding 10MM of Sugarbush projects, we can thank them for the Guest Services lodge and that alone (if they ever sell out claybrook). Claybrook can have the GS lodge.

MntMan4Bush
01-14-2009, 11:50 AM
My favorite is how when anything is ever discussed that has to do with economics someone throws up the "Yeah capitalism" flag. Trust me when I say few love capitalism as much as I do in both my personal life and work. Regardless it's neither here nor there. :lol:

I guess it boils down to my opinion of the policy. I just don't like it. There's nothing that can be done by either me to change it or any of you to change my opinion. I don't think it represents a volume issue. I just find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Tin - Hit or miss as I was, which improvements mentioned by you were pre and post CB sales? I'm not asking sarcastically, but am curious to know. While I agree that ticket sales alone cannot make the perfect mountain, revenue is generated by all of us as well and my guess is that it's not merely chump change. SV has to do what they have to do to sell, but I rather wish they kept the amenities to ones that only enhanced the experience of the owners while not creating an impression that it decreased the rest. The fact whether the impression was created or not cannot be argued by virtue of this thread being here. The impact on waiting times can be argued as you have and I would agree is minimal.

Oh well. What can you do.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 11:52 AM
Obviously there are like 2 or 3 people in this thread who are adamantly in favor of this policy. If that is your opinion then fine, but your not going to convince everyone else to be hunky dory with the new policy by arguing how minimal of an impact there will be. Nor are you going to convince us that Claybrook owners deserve this privilege because all the “great” things they have single handily done for Sugarbush.

Actually, I think there are three groups of people on this issue.

1) People who are in favor of it. Not sure who falls into that group - no one has come out and stated how awesome it is.

2) People who aren't thrilled with it but realize it's no big deal and critical to the mountain's success. This is where I come in.

3) People who believe it's evil incarnate.



The underlying problems are this.
1. The principle of Claybrook getting to cut because they are better than the public.
You've got a really transparent envy issue here, and that can't be helped on an internet message board.



2. What is going to happen when this privilege is extended to the future residences are going to be built? I guess the impact won’t be so minimal.
The question is IF it gets extended to future residences, first of all, and when do they get built. There are only two residences in the next phase of the village (the two GS buildings).



3. I don’t like the idea but if you want a cutter pass then it should be available to all to purchase for a reasonable price. (Any answer such as "well you can buy a Claybrook share" is BS)
So you want to take a perceived problem and turn it into a real problem by making this pass available to anyone who can afford it? That's your solution? Wow.


4. Lastly as Summit Ventures continues to enhance the country club like experience for Claybrook owners, what will be next? I didn’t see the cutter pass coming so I have no idea what the general public will have to sacrifice next. Could it be private ski terrain like Dawn Patrol has joked about? Who knows!
Hey everyone, let's play the slippery slope argument game! That's the sort of thinking that makes people believe they understand foreign policy b/c they can see Russia from their front porch. If you want to establish and perpetuate a country club experience, the best way to do that is by selling large numbers of line cutter passes to the general public, thereby marginalizing the remaining skiers. Maybe you have the money, so it's not an issue for you, but it would make an already expensive sport even more expensive.


I don’t think we should wait around to find out what the comprehensive impact of the cutter pass will be. Nor should we wait to see the final accumulation of Claybrook privileges and the sacrifices by the public to make them possible.

This is how I feel on the matter. You can disagree but know this, no matter what reason you have to be in favor of this policy or the significance of it, you have 0% chance of changing my view.

I agree. You shouldn't wait around. You should vote with your dollars and go to MRG or Stowe. Surely those mountains treat all comers equally and at a value price point. I'm goign to guess that you'll instead stick around here and bitch about it.

HowieT2
01-14-2009, 11:54 AM
If Claybrook is funding 10MM of Sugarbush projects, we can thank them for the Guest Services lodge and that alone (if they ever sell out claybrook). Claybrook can have the GS lodge.

You really are in an uproar about this? Relax.
The money they made off of claybrook allowed for the new GH lodge. The new GS lodges will be supported by sales of the new condos to be built alongside.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 11:55 AM
We know cutter passes are only go to Clay owners and their immediate family? Sugarbush checking birth certificates or something?
You see, they have this newfangled technology called "pictures". You may have read about it in the papers. I think SB has a pretty good handle on the people and families who are buying property in their building.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 11:57 AM
2) People who aren't thrilled with it but realize it's no big deal and critical to the mountain's success. This is where I come in.


Haha.. So Claybrook will only provide enought capital to build the Guest Services Lodge, BUT, allowing those owners the sinlge privilege of cutting the line is critical to the mountains success... I think you come in as the Sugarbush apologist.

Fourwide
01-14-2009, 12:01 PM
Tin wrote:

"Actually, I think there are three groups of people on this issue.

1) People who are in favor of it. Not sure who falls into that group - no one has come out and stated how awesome it is.

2) People who aren't thrilled with it but realize it's no big deal and critical to the mountain's success. This is where I come in.

3) People who believe it's evil incarnate."

I'd add another--people who aren't thrilled with it or may even think it's not a good idea and really aren't in a position to determine whether it's critical to the mountain's success, but understand it's our fine owner's perogative and, in the end, not a big deal.

rfm
01-14-2009, 12:02 PM
I have one more question. If the ClayBrook passes are to promote sales of yet to be sold/built units do buyers on the secondary market acquire the pass as well?

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 12:02 PM
You just said, that they'd make 20% on 50MM when all units are sold. Fine, thats 10MM if/when the units are sold. My point exactly. You just cited a whole list of improvements that we have to thank Claybrook for. That added up to much more than 10MM and so do the future improvements. So why are we thanking them so much? You are trying to make it sound as though I said Claybrook should never have been built, or they won't make a profit. I don't care if they build condos. Thats fine. But you and a few others here think we owe our first born to the people who buy claybrook for all these wonderful improvements. Meanwhile, they haven't covered a fraction of the cost of them.

I never said the past improvements were related to CB. Please point to the post where that was claimed. I'm sure wed' all be delighted to see you find it. As I mentioned in the post you quoted, it's pretty clear that the past improvements were funded by SV out of their pocket.

As for the future improvements, I guess you aren't paying attention. SV has already publically discussed that they have taken advantage of the EB-5 visa program to help fund the next round of capital improvements. This ia program whereby prospective immigrants to the US can (oh my God!!) "cut the line" and get a green card by investing $500K in depressed economic regions. While I'm sure you are now off writing your local Congressman at the horror of such a program, that's going to be a key piece in filling the gap between whatever CB generates and what is needed over the next 5-6 years.

Again, I'd rather this policy not be in place from a philosophical stand point. But the adult in me realizes that there is little to no impact on my skiing experience and that it is a necessary evil. If you want to throw a tantrum, be my guest.

Yard Sale
01-14-2009, 12:05 PM
Mr. Woodsman,

I must say that the pace and quality of your postings are impressive sir. Recognizing of course that you are merely quelling ill conceived nonsensical circular arguments as a parent might address a brood of unruly children resisting bedtime. However, this fact also highlights what appears to be a great store of stamina and patience. Your tolerence for whiny and idiotic argument seems to be without limit.

I commend you sir.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 12:06 PM
If Claybrook is funding 10MM of Sugarbush projects, we can thank them for the Guest Services lodge and that alone (if they ever sell out claybrook). Claybrook can have the GS lodge.

Wow. I guess you don't have kids, don't rent equipment, don't race and don't need lessons.

Who is the elitist now?

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 12:09 PM
If Claybrook is funding 10MM of Sugarbush projects, we can thank them for the Guest Services lodge and that alone (if they ever sell out claybrook). Claybrook can have the GS lodge.

Wow. I guess you don't have kids, don't rent equipment, don't race and don't need lessons.

Who is the elitist now?

Wait, you can't do all of those at Sugarbush TODAY?? Oh crap thank god for Claybrook!!!

HowieT2
01-14-2009, 12:11 PM
dear dawn patrol....tissues are located at the top of the main stairs to wipe the tears away...and i'm sure the sherpas could give u a shoulder to cry of

BTW-isn't the tissue dispenser at the GS desk great. They come right out the nose :lol:

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 12:13 PM
So in all of your infinite knowledge tin, clearly since you KNOW that allowing the single privilege of cutting the line was 'necessary' how much capital did that sinlge privilege generate?

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 12:16 PM
Tin - Hit or miss as I was, which improvements mentioned by you were pre and post CB sales? I'm not asking sarcastically, but am curious to know.

Off the top of my head, the GMX, CR replacement, and snowmaking improvements were pre-CB. GH lodge and Lincoln Limo were contemporaneous. I think that the $6MM for the GH lodge was actually part of a "package" of loans combined with the funding for CB - one wouldn't get built w/o the other. I think it's fair to say that they didn't build GH with the "profits" from CB b/c there realyl haven't been any profits yet. As best I can tell, though I'd appreciate informed opinions to the contrary, selling 80% of the units would have just about covered their costs.


While I agree that ticket sales alone cannot make the perfect mountain, revenue is generated by all of us as well and my guess is that it's not merely chump change. SV has to do what they have to do to sell, but I rather wish they kept the amenities to ones that only enhanced the experience of the owners while not creating an impression that it decreased the rest. The fact whether the impression was created or not cannot be argued by virtue of this thread being here. The impact on waiting times can be argued as you have and I would agree is minimal.

Oh well. What can you do.

I think it's useful to voice disapproval of the policy so as to ensure that it isn't expanded into things like paid parking close in, reserved space in the lodges, etc.. But I think it's also important to realize that this doesn't impact our skiing lives, as you have said, and is designed to sell R/E that is pretty important in funding the things we DO care about. Yes, ticket revenue will remain the biggest line item in revenue by FAR. But when you run the numbers, they aren't generating nearly as much revenue as you'd think - $30MM per year at the very most.

At the end of the day, I can't escape the fact that there is a VERY good reason SB has had four ownership groups in the snowmaking age (since 1980 or so). Owners came in, invested money (or didn't), and sold out b/c they couldn't make a decent return. SB has been a money pit for many people. The LP village is designed to help break that cycle while bringing the mtn into the 21st century. If I have to wait an extra chair or two at Bravo and GH in return for having a 1st class GS facility, better snowmaking, and reliable lifts, that's a price I'm MORE than willing to pay. There is no free lunch.

atkinson
01-14-2009, 12:16 PM
Four observations ...

1. The revenue generated from Clay Brook sales is not the only revenue that comes from this new building. People who would not have visited or bought here before, now come and use the lifts, restaurants, retail, ALC programs, etc. Clay Brook has helped change the equation in many ways, including summer activities.

2. Anybody who stays at one of Sugarbush's lodging properties, not just Clay Brook, can take a free adult group lesson, which means they can cut the line too.

3. Season passholders do not have to wait in the day ticket line. Should we make them wait like everyone else each time they want to come? That would only be fair, right?

4. Moving early and late winter ops to Lincoln Peak does not only benefit Clay Brook owners. Most of the core resort operations are based here and have been for many years. Some people even think that Stein's is longer and more fun than FIS.

Go ski now!

John

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 12:19 PM
I have one more question. If the ClayBrook passes are to promote sales of yet to be sold/built units do buyers on the secondary market acquire the pass as well?
I would imagine the passes come with title to any CB units you buy, but that's just speculation.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 12:22 PM
Haha.. So Claybrook will only provide enought capital to build the Guest Services Lodge, BUT, allowing those owners the sinlge privilege of cutting the line is critical to the mountains success... I think you come in as the Sugarbush apologist.
You really don't pay attention, do you?

Tin Woodsman: Sugarbush apologist. That's rich.

If there's anyone here who discusses perceived and actual shortcomings of the mtn on this board, it's me. I rant and rave all year about the crappy snowmaking, the stupid late/early season skiing venue, the inadequacies of the GH lodge/CR pub, the decaying forest, and whatever else comes across my mind. If you think that pointing out the many flaws in your argument now makes me an apologist for the mtn, by my guest.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 12:25 PM
I have one more question. If the ClayBrook passes are to promote sales of yet to be sold/built units do buyers on the secondary market acquire the pass as well?
I would imagine the passes come with title to any CB units you buy, but that's just speculation.

Yup, just like every other remark you've made about how many passes there are, who gets them and what the net capital gain of the cutter program is/will be.

HowieT2
01-14-2009, 12:26 PM
If Claybrook is funding 10MM of Sugarbush projects, we can thank them for the Guest Services lodge and that alone (if they ever sell out claybrook). Claybrook can have the GS lodge.

Wow. I guess you don't have kids, don't rent equipment, don't race and don't need lessons.

Who is the elitist now?

Wait, you can't do all of those at Sugarbush TODAY?? Oh crap thank god for Claybrook!!!

FYI-the location for daycare for real little ones is currently in sugarbush village which is very inconvenient for those parents. The temporary structures are totally inadequate for rentals and ski school. These detract from the experience and direct customers elsewhere (which I guess is good in keeping the wait at the lift line down).

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 12:26 PM
If Claybrook is funding 10MM of Sugarbush projects, we can thank them for the Guest Services lodge and that alone (if they ever sell out claybrook). Claybrook can have the GS lodge.

Wow. I guess you don't have kids, don't rent equipment, don't race and don't need lessons.

Who is the elitist now?

Wait, you can't do all of those at Sugarbush TODAY?? Oh crap thank god for Claybrook!!!

Sure you can do them today. I guess you're content with having to go to three or four different bldgs, some of which are glorified tents, to complete these tasks. Honestly, if you're longing for things the way "they used to be", then vote with your feet and go to MRG. Hope your kids don't snowboard.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 12:29 PM
I have one more question. If the ClayBrook passes are to promote sales of yet to be sold/built units do buyers on the secondary market acquire the pass as well?
I would imagine the passes come with title to any CB units you buy, but that's just speculation.

Yup, just like every other remark you've made about how many passes there are, who gets them and what the net capital gain of the cutter program is/will be.

"Net capital gain"?

It's like you're watching Law and Order for your economics lessons.

Is there a "net capital gain" for the pool or the hot tubs? Why should those amenities exist?

Fourwide
01-14-2009, 12:30 PM
Tin would certainly have an issue with CB owners being entitled to cut in line at the CP bar!

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 12:30 PM
My point is that, I as well as others think this policy is shameful and does not represent what we like about Sugarbush. Your point is that there aren't that many passes (though you have no real idea of what that number is) that it doesn't affect anyone much, which is just conjecture and that this privilege is necessary (without knowing at all how much this one privilege brought to the mountain)...

Lostone
01-14-2009, 12:32 PM
But seriously DAWN PATROL if your biggest hang up is that ski school, ski patrol and folks that purchased a condo get to head to the front of the line then cry me a river, go ski someplace else!

Beat it JONG!!!


dear dawn patrol....tissues are located at the top of the main stairs to wipe the tears away...and i'm sure the sherpas could give u a shoulder to cry of

Moderator note:
Please try to refrain from personal attacks.

For a thread that has gone 14 pages in 3 days, this has been remarkably civil, in the most. Take any point you wish on the discussion, or none at all, but please help it to remain civil.

Thanx for your support.

rfm
01-14-2009, 12:33 PM
I have one more question. If the ClayBrook passes are to promote sales of yet to be sold/built units do buyers on the secondary market acquire the pass as well?
I would imagine the passes come with title to any CB units you buy, but that's just speculation.


I think you're right, but if they weren't transferable it might make this issue a bit more palatable to some. Also anyone who is now looking to sell in this troubling economic time would be on equal footing with SV and maybe a bit above since if anything were to hit the market now it would probably be in a more prime location within CB.

Thanks

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 01:11 PM
Four observations ...

1. The revenue generated from Clay Brook sales is not the only revenue that comes from this new building. People who would not have visited or bought here before, now come and use the lifts, restaurants, retail, ALC programs, etc. Clay Brook has helped change the equation in many ways, including summer activities.

2. Anybody who stays at one of Sugarbush's lodging properties, not just Clay Brook, can take a free adult group lesson, which means they can cut the line too.

3. Season passholders do not have to wait in the day ticket line. Should we make them wait like everyone else each time they want to come? That would only be fair, right?

4. Moving early and late winter ops to Lincoln Peak does not only benefit Clay Brook owners. Most of the core resort operations are based here and have been for many years. Some people even think that Stein's is longer and more fun than FIS.

Go ski now!

John -

I'd be wary of trying to interject facts into the hysteria characterizing this thread. As for your point #4, core resort operations were located at LP long before the decision was made to put early/late season skiing at LP. But don't take my word for it, listen to what JJ Toland's predecessor had to say on the subject in 2002:


It’s frustrating from a management that we can’t use what is arguably the best spring skiing and early season skiing in the country. In the past here, the snowmaking was over at North for the great early- and late-season skiing. Mt. Ellen was the place to be, and ASC tried to make a shift in that that wasn’t appropriate. We all as locals hike up to upper FIS well into May in a lot of years,” Lafrenz reminisced.

Stein's may be longer, but it's certainly not more fun than FIS when the former is brown and the latter is buried in snow. Please stop trying to make the argument that the decision is somehow beneficial from a pure skiing perspective.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 01:22 PM
My point is that, I as well as others think this policy is shameful and does not represent what we like about Sugarbush.
On this, we generally agree, though I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it shameful. It's a shame they had to resort to this.



Your point is that there aren't that many passes (though you have no real idea of what that number is) that it doesn't affect anyone much, which is just conjecture and that this privilege is necessary (without knowing at all how much this one privilege brought to the mountain)...
You've thrown out numbers inthe thousands, which can easily be disproved. My figures may be off by +-20%, but they would still be orders of magnitude smaller than yours. Please feel free to come up with a fact-based estimate of your own. Where assumptions have I made which are clearly wrong? We know the # of units sold, and the total number of bedrooms in those sold units. We know the passes are limited to CB owners and their nuclear family only. The math isn't that difficult from there.

As for the possible impact, I have yet to see any comments on this board or anywhere else from people who had to wait noticeably longer b/c of the CB owners passes. In fact, to the contrary, most people have said they didn't even know about the policy until reading it here or seeing the signs in the lift corral. So clearly it's not conjecture on my part.

As for your final point about not knowing how much this specific privilege brings tot he mountain, I presume that was a rhetorical question. How much does the ski valet bring to the mountain? The pool? The hot tub? The concierge? The carpeting in the hallway? It's a package of services and amenities that, when considered as a whole, hopefully make CB attractive enough to be worth buying.

atkinson
01-14-2009, 01:38 PM
Why let facts get in the way of freakouts?

As for Drew's quote, that is one person's opinion, not fact. People hiked Stein's through May and part of June in 2007 and 2008. FIS is fun, but it's not even half as long as Stein's.

Time for some turns!

John

Strat
01-14-2009, 01:46 PM
This discussion has gone on for far too long. No amount of economic theory or rational reasoning is going to change anyone's mind. Each side has had their voices heard by the users of this forum, including Sugarbush employees (notably Win), with whom the issue can be taken up further, privately, if anyone so wishes. I'm all for free speech and airing of opinions, but I feel that there has been more than adequate space in which that has been done. I vote to lock this thread.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 01:51 PM
As for Drew's quote, that is one person's opinion, not fact. People hiked Stein's through May and part of June in 2007 and 2008. FIS is fun, but it's not even half as long as Stein's.

Time for some turns!

I'm sure it wasn't Drew's decision.

It would have been better if people could have ridden the lift to FIS and Rim Run in May (which are much longer than Stein's), enjoyed the majesty of the mountains from the sun deck at Glen House, and hiked in June for more than a 30 foot patch of snow.

Yes, time for some turns.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 01:53 PM
My point is that, I as well as others think this policy is shameful and does not represent what we like about Sugarbush.
On this, we generally agree, though I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it shameful. It's a shame they had to resort to this.



Your point is that there aren't that many passes (though you have no real idea of what that number is) that it doesn't affect anyone much, which is just conjecture and that this privilege is necessary (without knowing at all how much this one privilege brought to the mountain)...
You've thrown out numbers inthe thousands, which can easily be disproved. My figures may be off by +-20%, but they would still be orders of magnitude smaller than yours. Please feel free to come up with a fact-based estimate of your own. Where assumptions have I made which are clearly wrong? We know the # of units sold, and the total number of bedrooms in those sold units. We know the passes are limited to CB owners and their nuclear family only. The math isn't that difficult from there.

As for the possible impact, I have yet to see any comments on this board or anywhere else from people who had to wait noticeably longer b/c of the CB owners passes. In fact, to the contrary, most people have said they didn't even know about the policy until reading it here or seeing the signs in the lift corral. So clearly it's not conjecture on my part.

As for your final point about not knowing how much this specific privilege brings tot he mountain, I presume that was a rhetorical question. How much does the ski valet bring to the mountain? The pool? The hot tub? The concierge? The carpeting in the hallway? It's a package of services and amenities that, when considered as a whole, hopefully make CB attractive enough to be worth buying.

Tin, you and I have no clue, not a CLUE as to how many passes there are until we see the SV policy in writing. Why do you insist on pretending?? It could just as easily be 1 per owner as 10 per owner.

It is a rhetorical question because again, you have no way of telling how much it is worth (though multiple times you deemed it necessary...) The profit brought in by people who felt the claybrook cutter pass would make or break the deal. I bet not many people thought it was make or break. I also bet that plenty of people think the Clay Cutter pass is bogus.

vonski
01-14-2009, 01:56 PM
Tin, I don't have the time to set it up but if you do Please set up a Poll on this so we can really see the forum opinion!

Yard Sale
01-14-2009, 02:05 PM
My point is that, I as well as others think this policy is shameful and does not represent what we like about Sugarbush.
On this, we generally agree, though I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it shameful. It's a shame they had to resort to this.



Your point is that there aren't that many passes (though you have no real idea of what that number is) that it doesn't affect anyone much, which is just conjecture and that this privilege is necessary (without knowing at all how much this one privilege brought to the mountain)...
You've thrown out numbers inthe thousands, which can easily be disproved. My figures may be off by +-20%, but they would still be orders of magnitude smaller than yours. Please feel free to come up with a fact-based estimate of your own. Where assumptions have I made which are clearly wrong? We know the # of units sold, and the total number of bedrooms in those sold units. We know the passes are limited to CB owners and their nuclear family only. The math isn't that difficult from there.

As for the possible impact, I have yet to see any comments on this board or anywhere else from people who had to wait noticeably longer b/c of the CB owners passes. In fact, to the contrary, most people have said they didn't even know about the policy until reading it here or seeing the signs in the lift corral. So clearly it's not conjecture on my part.

As for your final point about not knowing how much this specific privilege brings tot he mountain, I presume that was a rhetorical question. How much does the ski valet bring to the mountain? The pool? The hot tub? The concierge? The carpeting in the hallway? It's a package of services and amenities that, when considered as a whole, hopefully make CB attractive enough to be worth buying.

Tin, you and I have no clue, not a CLUE as to how many passes there are until we see the SV policy in writing. Why do you insist on pretending?? It could just as easily be 1 per owner as 10 per owner.

It is a rhetorical question because again, you have no way of telling how much it is worth (though multiple times you deemed it necessary...) The profit brought in by people who felt the claybrook cutter pass would make or break the deal. I bet not many people thought it was make or break. I also bet that plenty of people think the Clay Cutter pass is bogus.

Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 02:07 PM
My point is that, I as well as others think this policy is shameful and does not represent what we like about Sugarbush.
On this, we generally agree, though I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it shameful. It's a shame they had to resort to this.



Your point is that there aren't that many passes (though you have no real idea of what that number is) that it doesn't affect anyone much, which is just conjecture and that this privilege is necessary (without knowing at all how much this one privilege brought to the mountain)...
You've thrown out numbers inthe thousands, which can easily be disproved. My figures may be off by +-20%, but they would still be orders of magnitude smaller than yours. Please feel free to come up with a fact-based estimate of your own. Where assumptions have I made which are clearly wrong? We know the # of units sold, and the total number of bedrooms in those sold units. We know the passes are limited to CB owners and their nuclear family only. The math isn't that difficult from there.

As for the possible impact, I have yet to see any comments on this board or anywhere else from people who had to wait noticeably longer b/c of the CB owners passes. In fact, to the contrary, most people have said they didn't even know about the policy until reading it here or seeing the signs in the lift corral. So clearly it's not conjecture on my part.

As for your final point about not knowing how much this specific privilege brings tot he mountain, I presume that was a rhetorical question. How much does the ski valet bring to the mountain? The pool? The hot tub? The concierge? The carpeting in the hallway? It's a package of services and amenities that, when considered as a whole, hopefully make CB attractive enough to be worth buying.

Tin, you and I have no clue, not a CLUE as to how many passes there are until we see the SV policy in writing. Why do you insist on pretending?? It could just as easily be 1 per owner as 10 per owner.

It is a rhetorical question because again, you have no way of telling how much it is worth (though multiple times you deemed it necessary...) The profit brought in by people who felt the claybrook cutter pass would make or break the deal. I bet not many people thought it was make or break. I also bet that plenty of people think the Clay Cutter pass is bogus.

Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?

Not really... Sooo... who is immediate family and how do they verify they are infact immediate family?

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 02:07 PM
Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?
Bbbbut YS, that's not "in writing" and notarized from a member of the Board of SV, so it can't possibly be believed.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 02:08 PM
Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?
Bbbbut YS, that's not "in writing" and notarized from a member of the Board of SV, so it can't possibly be believed.
It doesn't mean crap. My brother is immediate family, so his wife is too, and his wife's three children from a different marriage and... and.... And oh they get 5 guest passes too!

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 02:16 PM
Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?
Bbbbut YS, that's not "in writing" and notarized from a member of the Board of SV, so it can't possibly be believed.
It doesn't mean crap. My brother is immediate family, so his wife is too, and his wife's three children from a different marriage and... and.... And oh they get 5 guest passes too!

I love it! Let's keep stretching and stretching to see how outrageous a POV we can construct! What about their cousins twice removed from three marriages ago??!!!

Perhaps bill-now can come back in and help clear it up for those who aren't convinced as yet. Presumably, the passes were given to the head of the household who purchased the unit, their current spouse, and their children.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 02:19 PM
Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?
Bbbbut YS, that's not "in writing" and notarized from a member of the Board of SV, so it can't possibly be believed.
It doesn't mean crap. My brother is immediate family, so his wife is too, and his wife's three children from a different marriage and... and.... And oh they get 5 guest passes too!

I love it! Let's keep stretching and stretching to see how outrageous a POV we can construct! What about their cousins twice removed from three marriages ago??!!!

Perhaps bill-now can come back in and help clear it up for those who aren't convinced as yet. Presumably, the passes were given to the head of the household who purchased the unit, their current spouse, and their children.

That is the point. I made an obviously ridiculous example to show that you have no clue how many there are. You can keep assuming, I'll keep saying we don't know.

Yard Sale
01-14-2009, 02:31 PM
Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?
Bbbbut YS, that's not "in writing" and notarized from a member of the Board of SV, so it can't possibly be believed.
It doesn't mean crap. My brother is immediate family, so his wife is too, and his wife's three children from a different marriage and... and.... And oh they get 5 guest passes too!

I love it! Let's keep stretching and stretching to see how outrageous a POV we can construct! What about their cousins twice removed from three marriages ago??!!!

Perhaps bill-now can come back in and help clear it up for those who aren't convinced as yet. Presumably, the passes were given to the head of the household who purchased the unit, their current spouse, and their children.

That is the point. I made an obviously ridiculous example to show that you have no clue how many there are. You can keep assuming, I'll keep saying we don't know.

You have a well worn pattern of making your point with ridiculous examples. It's not a very effective method of debate.

MntMan4Bush
01-14-2009, 02:34 PM
Well I continue to post because 1) I'm not close enough to the mountain to be skiing and 2) I'm bored at work and enjoy reading everyone bash and be bashed. Frankly I find it amusing and have done my best to see how long we can keep this going.

Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners. Or discredit someone's opinion by casting them in a negative light. I seem to remember most who have posted here have also posted on:

- The size of the fire pit
- North or South early/late season skiing
- Price of replacement season passes
- Hitting one's head on the bathroom shelf or the material it's made of
- Related to he last, but my all time favorite the type of fasteners and lag bolts used to install said shelf. I mean really. That one just cracks me.
- The health of saplings at the edge of trails (This one I actually agree with, but doesn't necessarily come out right in the forum)
- And most recently CB pass cutting

The point is at some point most people have had an opinion or something that has bothered them (still cracking up on the shelf fasteners as I write. Every time I pee I laugh and just a little more comes out), but not necessarily bothered everyone else. Why is it that immediately people are painted as whiners or my all favorite marketing campaign of "why don't you ski somewhere else"?

So state your points, but before you dismiss someone and send a little bash out remember the crap you've complained about. Now of course I've NEVER fallen into this category and I'm only talking about all of you........fasteners on the bathroom shelf.........OMG I can't stop laughing

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 02:35 PM
That is the point. I made an obviously ridiculous example to show that you have no clue how many there are. You can keep assuming, I'll keep saying we don't know.
That's all you've contributed to this thread is obviously ridiculous examples containing only hyperbole. You then compare them with reasonable, fact-based estimates that I've put together, declare that they are both equally wrong, and march onwards. As a debating tactic for grade school kids, you win. As a reasonable basis for an intelligent discourse, not so much.

As mentioned above, I'm anything but a SB apologist - I call it like I see it. I just want the facts and, as opposed to you, I'm not coming at this with a strongly held opinion that overrides any data points I come across.

Go Figure
01-14-2009, 03:03 PM
I hope all the posters here are self employed if "working". If not You ARE stealing from Your employer. One peek and a post is one thing, but some of You are too much.

gone.skiing
01-14-2009, 03:05 PM
Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners.

That is because he sounds like a crybaby with an axe to grind. People have managed to bring up issues and get them resolved in the past without questioning SV's motives or integrity in the way DP (or is that DB) is doing now.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 03:15 PM
Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners.

That is because he sounds like a crybaby with an axe to grind. People have managed to bring up issues and get them resolved in the past without questioning SV's motives or integrity in the way DP (or is that DB) is doing now.

Personal attacks are awesome!! I don't believe I've done that yet.. Though you have several times in this thread alone..................

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 03:16 PM
I hope all the posters here are self employed if "working". If not You ARE stealing from Your employer. One peek and a post is one thing, but some of You are too much.
Thanks for the unsolicited advice.

No really. Personally, I wanted to hear what you have to say about my relationship with my employer. Seriously.

Dawn Patrol
01-14-2009, 03:19 PM
That is the point. I made an obviously ridiculous example to show that you have no clue how many there are. You can keep assuming, I'll keep saying we don't know.
That's all you've contributed to this thread is obviously ridiculous examples containing only hyperbole. You then compare them with reasonable, fact-based estimates that I've put together, declare that they are both equally wrong, and march onwards. As a debating tactic for grade school kids, you win. As a reasonable basis for an intelligent discourse, not so much.

As mentioned above, I'm anything but a SB apologist - I call it like I see it. I just want the facts and, as opposed to you, I'm not coming at this with a strongly held opinion that overrides any data points I come across.

Well.. I started with reasonable numbers on maximum possible people in beds at Claybrook... But clearly your guesstimating on how many people PROBABLY come up was better.... So I had to point out how silly you were being introducing SEVERAL unknowns that are being multiplied into your guess....

bill-now
01-14-2009, 03:20 PM
All I know as fact is that myself, my spouse, and both of my children received these passes. The photos were pulled from our season passes.

My experience is that the management here at CB is pretty familiar with the owners and their family relationships. It would be difficult to pull a fast one on them.

ski_resort_observer
01-14-2009, 03:27 PM
MntMan4Bush wrote:
Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners.



That is because he sounds like a crybaby with an axe to grind. People have managed to bring up issues and get them resolved in the past without questioning SV's motives or integrity in the way DP (or is that DB) is doing now.

As mentioned a couple of times Dawn Patrol is a she, not a he. If you genuinely suffer from Gendlexia, instead of he/she just type in the poster's username. Thanks :D

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 03:29 PM
The point is at some point most people have had an opinion or something that has bothered them (still cracking up on the shelf fasteners as I write. Every time I pee I laugh and just a little more comes out), but not necessarily bothered everyone else. Why is it that immediately people are painted as whiners or my all favorite marketing campaign of "why don't you ski somewhere else"?

So state your points, but before you dismiss someone and send a little bash out remember the crap you've complained about.

Mtn Man -

I think the difference here is that in every example you cite, the issue was discussed rationally and factually. You want to talk about the fall/spring skiing choice? Let's do it. Want to talk about how SB is neglecting the forest ecosystem? Game on. I will come to the discussion with arguments based on facts, logic and reason. Now while that may not suffice with my wife, it should be the basis for a reasonable discourse on subjects where people may not agree.

What's different here is that two posters are presenting this issue as the end of the world, and literally have not a single fact to back up the notion that it may have a material impact on their skiing lives. There is hysterical speculation. There is character assassination. There's even a little bit of petty envy thrown in on top. Notice that neither of the two protagonists has chosen to engage in a serious discussion of the actual numbers, preferring instead to retreat to the comfort of knowingly outrageous examples. They are personally affronted, and the degree to which this bothers them is clouding their judgement as to actual impact.

When I bitched and moaned about the CR pub being too small, the usual coterie of apologists here tried to play down my concerns. But any idiot could see that capacity was a problem if they tried to walk into the bar between 3 and 5 on a Saturday/holiday. Anyone could observe for themselves what a waste of space the old patio was in the generally cold New England weather. Anyone could run the numbers on the capacity of the old CR pub, the Wunderbard and the Mushroom compared to the current venue to understand there was a problem. This was all reasonably verifiable.

In contrast, there isn't one scintilla of observable evidence which indicates that this issue will have a material impact on anyone's skiing life. It's a principle thing. Fine. But don't concoct bogus arguments and make hysterical accusations and predictions just b/c you disagree with the policy. I think that's what people are reacting to here - at least I am.

Jacksun
01-14-2009, 03:33 PM
I bought a season pass, got a booklet with discounts for various venues around the valley.
My kids are in Blazers, they get a discount on lunches.
I patronize certain businesses and eventually get a benefit of some sort after so many visits/purchases.
If I were a frequent flyer I'd get lots of bennies after hitting mileage requirements, including preferential seating, upgrades and better treatment by the airline.
If I joined a semi-private country club, I'd get prefential tee times.
If I bought a CB quarter share condo, I'd get to cut the liftline.

I think the problem is that we have a culture of line respect. Go to some countries and cutting, pushing and shoving is what being in line is all about. Others, like ours, respect, staying in ones place and not cutting are the norm. Someone made posted earlier that it galls them when people don't respect the alternation that occurs in the corrals.

My two cents is that this particular CB perk goes against our cultural norm, which is why many find it so galling. Give the CB owners a discount or first dibs on seating at Timbers, no problem. Give them permanent discounts at the Mtn Sports Shop, no problem. Give them a discount on passes or lift tix, no problem. Give them line priviledges, highly visible to the rest of us - strikes a nerve, irks us, feelings akin to being cut off when driving.

So I believe that SV made a poor choice with this perk, which is really a marketing ploy, but which goes against some behavioral traits which we possess.

That said, I'm with those that think the impact will be minimal. Assuming the cardholders follow the rules, it would seem they couldn't use them when skiing with their friends, and it certainly wouldn't do them any good to jump the line when everyone else they're with has to wait. So, to me, the impact is the visual one. Lastly, I don't think it's a powder day issue, much more of a windhold/holiday overflow day problem. That's when it's going to appear really unfair.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 03:54 PM
Well.. I started with reasonable numbers on maximum possible people in beds at Claybrook... But clearly your guesstimating on how many people PROBABLY come up was better.... So I had to point out how silly you were being introducing SEVERAL unknowns that are being multiplied into your guess....

Right. It's reasonable to assume that 3-4 people occupy a typical 1 BR or studio. It's reasonable to assume that the avg 2 BR unit has 6 people in it. That's pretty standard - in Calcutta. It's reasonable to assume that all 61 units are occupied and their owners are at SB even though only 53 have been sold in full or in part. Then on top of that, it's reasonable to assume that all sold units have 4 owners, all of whom are up on a normal weekend. Finally, it's entirely reasonable to assume that friends and distant relatives will be eligible for the passes despite several statements to the contrary from people who know.

If you think we're coming up with similar arguments but from a different perspective, you're not paying attention.

MntMan4Bush
01-14-2009, 03:55 PM
Well put Jackson. That is exactly what irks me personally. In fact I almost posted something similar, but wasn't sure if anyone else would get it. In my travels I've found that anywhere west of Turkey has only a marginal concept of lines and the further west you go it decreases exponentially. When I travel and often get pushed and shoved in lines and out right cut by people who think that the rest of us are standing around because we couldn't see the space on either side of the objective not crowded with people I just shrug and let it go. I'm traveling to their environment and culture and it's a way of life. It doesn't bother me at all. (Well not any more once I got used to it) East of Turkey is the opposite where line courtesy is understood. Take England. They love a good queue and will often hop in a line even when there is nothing at the end of it. So when I'm in a place where line priority is an understood concept and someone goes around it the perception as opposed to the real effect bothers me. I'm not going to let it effect my day, but it does bother me. As I've stated before I think it has minimal impact on even the busiest of days in the most extreme of circumstances. Oh well.

Now Tin, I'd find it hard to argue with you on most of the concepts I'd brought up as I think I agree with you on most of them. My point was that some may dismiss some as petty as I think many are doing here. (Not all) Regardless I will talk facts about the fasteners on the urinal shelf for a little while then we can move on to the scrolling on the wainscoting in the upper conference room. Fasteners......It's too much...too much I tell you.............. Man this forum has had it's share.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 03:55 PM
I bought a season pass, got a booklet with discounts for various venues around the valley.
My kids are in Blazers, they get a discount on lunches.
I patronize certain businesses and eventually get a benefit of some sort after so many visits/purchases.
If I were a frequent flyer I'd get lots of bennies after hitting mileage requirements, including preferential seating, upgrades and better treatment by the airline.
If I joined a semi-private country club, I'd get prefential tee times.
If I bought a CB quarter share condo, I'd get to cut the liftline.

I think the problem is that we have a culture of line respect. Go to some countries and cutting, pushing and shoving is what being in line is all about. Others, like ours, respect, staying in ones place and not cutting are the norm. Someone made posted earlier that it galls them when people don't respect the alternation that occurs in the corrals.

My two cents is that this particular CB perk goes against our cultural norm, which is why many find it so galling. Give the CB owners a discount or first dibs on seating at Timbers, no problem. Give them permanent discounts at the Mtn Sports Shop, no problem. Give them a discount on passes or lift tix, no problem. Give them line priviledges, highly visible to the rest of us - strikes a nerve, irks us, feelings akin to being cut off when driving.

So I believe that SV made a poor choice with this perk, which is really a marketing ploy, but which goes against some behavioral traits which we possess.

That said, I'm with those that think the impact will be minimal. Assuming the cardholders follow the rules, it would seem they couldn't use them when skiing with their friends, and it certainly wouldn't do them any good to jump the line when everyone else they're with has to wait. So, to me, the impact is the visual one. Lastly, I don't think it's a powder day issue, much more of a windhold/holiday overflow day problem. That's when it's going to appear really unfair.

How dare you interject facts, logic and reason into this discussion!

Great first post.

MntMan4Bush
01-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Oh and by the way SRO Dawn is a "he". I've met him a few times and despite what opinion many of you may have formed from the thread he's a nice guy and does care about the mountain.

ScoobySnack
01-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Excellent first post, Jacksun.

sgottmann
01-14-2009, 04:02 PM
It seems to me that the perks given to Claybrook owners are a way to compete with the private clubs and other deals that are provided at other mountains. For example, at Stratton, there is tiered pass structure and private club. I believe the private club members, in addition to their own lodge, have access to the lifts before the lifts open to the general public. Talk about devastating on a powder day (the perception more than the reality). Clearly, there is a demand for these special perks. I am sure that many purchasers at Sugarbush have owned at other resorts and expect these amenities. Win has clearly expressed that the sale of the remaining CB units is essential for other improvements at Sugarbush. The market for high end condo sales is not limitless. I hope the remaining units sell and look forward to the new GH buildings and ultimately improved lifts and snowmaking. While I hate waiting in line as much as the next person, I just don't get the anger over the fact that some have access to a shorter line. It's a necessary evil to compete and succeed in difficult business. Hopefully, the number of people with special access remains low or at the very least, that I am able to obtain the special privileges (I wouldn't mind a place at CB and would make excellent use of that hot tub and pool). If the ski experience is greatly diminished by the new policy to a point that SV suffers econimically, I am sure Win will cancel the policy. I guess I am supply side trickle down skier that accepts that the sale of high end condos is what leads to infrastructure improvements on the mountain.

Stay warm.

Tin Woodsman
01-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Well put Jackson. That is exactly what irks me personally. In fact I almost posted something similar, but wasn't sure if anyone else would get it. In my travels I've found that anywhere west of Turkey has only a marginal concept of lines and the further west you go it decreases exponentially. When I travel and often get pushed and shoved in lines and out right cut by people who think that the rest of us are standing around because we couldn't see the space on either side of the objective not crowded with people I just shrug and let it go. I'm traveling to their environment and culture and it's a way of life. It doesn't bother me at all. (Well not any more once I got used to it) East of Turkey is the opposite where line courtesy is understood. Take England. They love a good queue and will often hop in a line even when there is nothing at the end of it.


England is East of Turkey? I knoew that globe I bought looked funny.

Personally, I'd put the line at the English channel - not much line courtesy when skiing on the Continent.


So when I'm in a place where line priority is an understood concept and someone goes around it the perception as opposed to the real effect bothers me. I'm not going to let it effect my day, but it does bother me. As I've stated before I think it has minimal impact on even the busiest of days in the most extreme of circumstances. Oh well.

And this is just the point I'm making. It's perfectly OK to be disappointed or upset with this policy. It is an affront to both our cultural norms and the vibe which attracts many of us to SB. But there isn't any evidence to support the contention that the problem is going to be anything more than one of principle rather than reality on the slopes. If this helps SV sell another condo or two, and it doesn't impact my skiing life in the least, I don't see what the problem is. All I care about are the types of on-mountain improvements those condo sales can help fund.

MntMan4Bush
01-14-2009, 04:12 PM
Correction. Thanks Tin. East of Turkey = no line, west if Turkey = lines. I've chosen Turkey as the Line Meridian just based on personal experience. Though maybe I could be convinced to move it over on my next map drawing.

gone.skiing
01-14-2009, 04:19 PM
Disagreeing with policy is one thing, painting Sugarbush owners and employees as not caring about the rest of the customers based on this policy is completely different. If you have been at Sugarbush that long, you know the facts and this one policy is not going to change that all of a sudden.

DP, do you really believe the edits in your signature line? Would you tell it face to face to Win, Egan, Atkinson, snowmaking crew, patrol, Blazer coaches?

Hawk
01-14-2009, 04:49 PM
MntMan4Bush wrote:
Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners.



That is because he sounds like a crybaby with an axe to grind. People have managed to bring up issues and get them resolved in the past without questioning SV's motives or integrity in the way DP (or is that DB) is doing now.

As mentioned a couple of times Dawn Patrol is a she, not a he. If you genuinely suffer from Gendlexia, instead of he/she just type in the poster's username. Thanks :D

:shock: Wait a minute. Where was that? What Page? I missed it. Just quote it for me please.

ridelikeme
01-14-2009, 04:50 PM
I hope all the posters here are self employed if "working". If not You ARE stealing from Your employer. One peek and a post is one thing, but some of You are too much.

are you for real????? :roll: :roll: :roll:
get over yourself.

Strat
01-14-2009, 04:50 PM
@Hawk: See the top of this page. The correction has been corrected 8)

madhavok
01-14-2009, 04:52 PM
I wouldn't say Sugarbush owners and employees don't care about the rest of the customer base. Obviously they depend on everyone's business. Still hard to argue that Claybrook’s interests aren’t being put first (right or wrong put aside).