Some Observations From This Week

[summitchallenger]

Not complaints, just observations for comment I guess and maybe remedying.

1. North Ridge is down again....that lift is showing its age. Any plans on at least a new coat of paint? Why is it so troubled? Age? Doppelmayr and company's retrofit problems linger?

2. Slide Brook: was listed as opening last week, but we had that bad thaw. I know we don't have much cover, but word had it that Lincoln Peak was FLOODED with skiers and riders, some of who were desperate enough to drive over to Ellen. I thought that it would be nice to have it as an option. Many chairs are not even on the line and are probably now perpetually frozen into the tundra of 'Ellen. What is up with this?

3. GMVS bump arena thing on Elbow. Is this part of the bumps promo Ellen is doing? Why was it put at a pinch point on one of the mountain's busiest trails with a narrow escape route that is ice in one hour?

4. Snowmaking: we have a whole thread on it, but only a handful of guns running at Ellen. None on FIS or Exterminator. No hoses. Nothing being set up or taken down beyond what is running. Heard from a member of the "guns and hoses" team that one of Ellen's water pumps is down and "will not be repaired this season." Is this true? What is going on with the snowmaking or lack thereof? I also heard that snowmakers were going to be laid off...seems odd.

5. Went to the ski shop at Ellen to get the boards tuned. I asked the guy for a full tune, and he pointed to the machine and hung his head. "She's broken, still in pieces and not going to be fixed anytime soon. I wouldn't run rental skis through it." So I left. Lost business....seems odd for a holiday week.

All in all looks like there are some bugs that need working out.

[shadyjay]

SBX was down due to repairs from the ice/wind storm earlier in December. Haven't heard a definitive timetable, other than 1/1. Now that date has come and gone, and I don't see it on our schedule. Perhaps snowpack is an issue. Keep in mind the lift probably wouldn't have run these past couple days regardless because of the cold (think stranded).
Hopefully we'll see it, and another 2-3 feet of freshies soon.

Can't comment on the rest, as I'm stationed only at LP but do hope to get over to ME as a rider soon.

[freeheel_skier]

SBX not running could be due to the cold temps (Thurs/Wed). In the past being able to safely evacuate has been an issue too (snow depth at the lower elevations?).

[HowieT2]

I would think the reason sbx isn't running is the deficient snow pack for evacuation purposes.

I echo the sentiment about snow making at mellon. I was there wed. and I didn't see any snow being made.

[BushMogulMaster]

3. GMVS bump arena thing on Elbow. Is this part of the bumps promo Ellen is doing? Why was it put at a pinch point on one of the mountain's busiest trails with a narrow escape route that is ice in one hour?

That is a mogul course for a USSA mogul competition tomorrow and Sunday. That's the only available spot with enough snow and the appropriate pitch.



4. Snowmaking: we have a whole thread on it, but only a handful of guns running at Ellen. None on FIS or Exterminator. No hoses. Nothing being set up or taken down beyond what is running. Heard from a member of the "guns and hoses" team that one of Ellen's water pumps is down and "will not be repaired this season." Is this true? What is going on with the snowmaking or lack thereof? I also heard that snowmakers were going to be laid off...seems odd.

Guns were online in base area, and on Sugar Run. Recoating Mainstream tonight.

[Last Tracks]

i skied slidebrook from ME yesterday...

top section was nice but once we got to the workroad under the SB exppres there was no snow at all except the 2 inches that had fallen that afternoon.

not too kind on my skis and I wouldn't do it again until there is snow on the runout..

exterminator woods were skiing nice.

[win]

Yes SBX needs more snow underneath before it can be run. We have already made more snow at ME than all of last year. We will continue though, but I am not going to just blow where we have sufficient cover.

[Tin Woodsman]

Yes SBX needs more snow underneath before it can be run. We have already made more snow at ME than all of last year. We will continue though, but I am not going to just blow where we have sufficient cover.

Does that rule out resurfacing after major thaw/freeze events if there is sufficient, yet bulletproof, cover? If so, that's.....unfortunate.

[vonski]

If they have made more at Ellen already what about cliffs and which way and lower exterminator? are they going to have snow made on them?

[summitchallenger]

If they have made more at Ellen already what about cliffs and which way and lower exterminator? are they going to have snow made on them?

My thoughts exactly...seemed like resurfacing was nil. Even FIS, which I had heard was "the focus of much snowmaking" was almost bare. Was there more snow spread around--i.e. more trails covered with less snow? Or did that thaw really do that much damage?

[Plowboy]

Last year was a great natural snow year, I THINK that the statement "We have already made more snow at ME than all of last year" says very little for a year with major thaws so far.

When are they going to replace the pipe that goes from German Flats to ME. It seems for the past couple of years there have been multiple breaks in that line. There was water coming out of the side of the road near the school a few weeks ago and from my observations it has not been fixed yet.

[freeheel_skier]

So is ME snowmaking system able to operate @ 100%? Or is there something wrong? Just curious :?

If someone has already pointed this out sorry for being lazy. :( I am @ work in the middle of a freaking boring conference call.....Thank the gods I am working out of my "house" for the rest of the week.....ummmm I mean Mt. Ellen!

[BushMogulMaster]

Alright. Let's consider a few things. Snowmaking is not a "snap your fingers" type of operation. And it is very expensive and wasteful to resurface trails that have good cover, and have (as of today) recovered very very nicely. For example, the cord on Rim Run, Elbow, Lookin Good, North Star, Cruiser, Straight Shot, and Sugar Run was soft and very edgeable today. There were still some cleat marks and icy spots, yes. But overall, the groomed runs skied very nicely. Why shoot money out the end of a gun when you don't need to?

Resurfacing and new snowmaking, however, has in fact continued. Sugar Run and Riemergasse each have fresh snowmaking on them. Both very important. Sugar Run for beginner terrain, and Riemer for terrain park. Mainstream was resurfaced and skied great. It even covered lower Which Way. Parts of Inverness were resurfaced. Northridge Xpressway was resurfaced. The base area has been resurfaced multiple times.

Now, I know... I know (a general message for everyone). That's not might not be the terrain YOU want to ski. But guess what? It's not all about you. It's about each and every paying customer. Each person who pays for a ticket or pass is equally important to the operation. Inverness is important, because that's where GMVS trains and holds races. GMVS is extremely important to the operation. Not to mention the upcoming FIS race. Riemergasse is important because that's the park. Nope, I don't ski the park. But some people do, and it's another important piece of the puzzle. Sugar Run was key because it was the first nice and mellow beginner terrain opened up. And it skied great today. Mainstream needed resurfacing badly, because it was solid ice and it is the only easy way down from North Star. Lower NStar is pretty steep.

What you need to understand is that the mountain ops crew is making intelligent decisions about snowmaking, and they understand where the snow needs to be made, and how much they need to make. That's what they're trained to do. And they're doing a good job.

Are you going to see additional trails online soon? I think so. Wait and see.

But for those of you in doubt... there was snow made on FIS, albeit a small amount. Pre season, they were online with towers for a day or two to lay down some base. I have the photos to prove it!

Exterm has not had snowmaking, and I hope it doesn't this season. That trail skis 10000000% better on natural snow. The middle section was good today. The top needs some snow, but it looks like that's on the way.

As to why the mountain can't be online all over the place, take a step back and look at the big picture. There are limits on water consumption based both on water availability and pumping capacity. There are limits on electricity usage, and the mountain gets hit with curtailments at unfortunate times. There is lots of piping on the mountain, and you can only pump so much water around the hill. If Inverness, Northridge Xpressway, and Riemer are online... you simply can't get enough water up to FIS and Baldy. Snowmaking is a very complex subject, and the way snowmaking systems work is also very complex.

The decisions that are being made are well thought out, and are intelligent mountain ops decisions. You are all certainly entitled to have a different opinion, but remember... the people making the calls are professionals in this industry. Are you? If so, great! If not, consider strongly what I have pointed out, and give the team some credit for trying to do the best job they can.

Plowboy... the break in the line by the school WAS repaired. Regardless of the current condition of that line, IMO... there's no point in even thinking about replacing during the winter months.

[win]

No, Tin. I did not mean to imply we won't resurface. We will where and when it makes sense. Cliffs, Whichway and Reimergasse for the Terrain park on on the list for snowmaking next.

We are resurfacing Snowball, Spring Fling and Racer's Edge and Birdland and then moving back to the GH side and moving up the hill.

Hope to get Birch open this weekend as well with snowmaking up there. Will the storm coming in tonight and tomorrow we might have an even better chance of that! Will also reopen CR as soon as it is safe.

[HowieT2]

Alright. Let's consider a few things. Snowmaking is not a "snap your fingers" type of operation. And it is very expensive and wasteful to resurface trails that have good cover, and have (as of today) recovered very very nicely. For example, the cord on Rim Run, Elbow, Lookin Good, North Star, Cruiser, Straight Shot, and Sugar Run was soft and very edgeable today. There were still some cleat marks and icy spots, yes. But overall, the groomed runs skied very nicely. Why shoot money out the end of a gun when you don't need to?

Resurfacing and new snowmaking, however, has in fact continued. Sugar Run and Riemergasse each have fresh snowmaking on them. Both very important. Sugar Run for beginner terrain, and Riemer for terrain park. Mainstream was resurfaced and skied great. It even covered lower Which Way. Parts of Inverness were resurfaced. Northridge Xpressway was resurfaced. The base area has been resurfaced multiple times.

Now, I know... I know (a general message for everyone). That's not might not be the terrain YOU want to ski. But guess what? It's not all about you. It's about each and every paying customer. Each person who pays for a ticket or pass is equally important to the operation. Inverness is important, because that's where GMVS trains and holds races. GMVS is extremely important to the operation. Not to mention the upcoming FIS race. Riemergasse is important because that's the park. Nope, I don't ski the park. But some people do, and it's another important piece of the puzzle. Sugar Run was key because it was the first nice and mellow beginner terrain opened up. And it skied great today. Mainstream needed resurfacing badly, because it was solid ice and it is the only easy way down from North Star. Lower NStar is pretty steep.

What you need to understand is that the mountain ops crew is making intelligent decisions about snowmaking, and they understand where the snow needs to be made, and how much they need to make. That's what they're trained to do. And they're doing a good job.

Are you going to see additional trails online soon? I think so. Wait and see.

But for those of you in doubt... there was snow made on FIS, albeit a small amount. Pre season, they were online with towers for a day or two to lay down some base. I have the photos to prove it!

Exterm has not had snowmaking, and I hope it doesn't this season. That trail skis 10000000% better on natural snow. The middle section was good today. The top needs some snow, but it looks like that's on the way.

As to why the mountain can't be online all over the place, take a step back and look at the big picture. There are limits on water consumption based both on water availability and pumping capacity. There are limits on electricity usage, and the mountain gets hit with curtailments at unfortunate times. There is lots of piping on the mountain, and you can only pump so much water around the hill. If Inverness, Northridge Xpressway, and Riemer are online... you simply can't get enough water up to FIS and Baldy. Snowmaking is a very complex subject, and the way snowmaking systems work is also very complex.

The decisions that are being made are well thought out, and are intelligent mountain ops decisions. You are all certainly entitled to have a different opinion, but remember... the people making the calls are professionals in this industry. Are you? If so, great! If not, consider strongly what I have pointed out, and give the team some credit for trying to do the best job they can.

Plowboy... the break in the line by the school WAS repaired. Regardless of the current condition of that line, IMO... there's no point in even thinking about replacing during the winter months.

I have a couple of questions since you seem to actually know what you're talking about.
I saw the demo fan gun parked by the maintenance building at LP between new years and 1/4. Why wasn't it being used? Is it because the conditions made the other equipment more efficient?
When I last skied on 1/4, they had been blowing snow on Stein's for 3 days straight. Don't get me wrong, Stein's was great and I know it needs to be built up for the spring, but it was great after day one. Why wasn't that capacity utilized to get some snow on north Lynx and get that area open? With Castlerock and North Lynx closed on friday the crowds were bad (by SB standards). I also don't understand why they haven't put some snow down on lower Ripcord leading to the HG which was in terrible shape.

I think we can all accept reasonable limitations and tradeoffs that have to be made in deciding where/when to make snow. What is not acceptable, having done our part and paid for our passes, houses, blazers etc., is if the snowmaking is being limited to save a few bucks (I am not saying that that is the case).

[BushMogulMaster]

I have a couple of questions since you seem to actually know what you're talking about.
I saw the demo fan gun parked by the maintenance building at LP between new years and 1/4. Why wasn't it being used? Is it because the conditions made the other equipment more efficient?
When I last skied on 1/4, they had been blowing snow on Stein's for 3 days straight. Don't get me wrong, Stein's was great and I know it needs to be built up for the spring, but it was great after day one. Why wasn't that capacity utilized to get some snow on north Lynx and get that area open? With Castlerock and North Lynx closed on friday the crowds were bad (by SB standards). I also don't understand why they haven't put some snow down on lower Ripcord leading to the HG which was in terrible shape.

I think we can all accept reasonable limitations and tradeoffs that have to be made in deciding where/when to make snow. What is not acceptable, having done our part and paid for our passes, houses, blazers etc., is if the snowmaking is being limited to save a few bucks (I am not saying that that is the case).

I'll have to defer to Win on this one. I'm not up to speed with what's going on over at Lincoln Peak, nor am I working in snowmaking this year.

But rest assured that snowmaking isn't being limited just to pinch pennies. Recognize the difference between intelligent fiscal decisions, and just trying to save money. It would be a waste of that money from your passes, etc. to blow snow where it isn't really needed. Save that money for when or where it IS needed!

Not sure about the demo gun, but I'll offer some potential reasons. If the period you're talking about was during those sub-zero nights, then the air/water guns would have been more efficient and less of a headache. When the valves and nozzles freeze on those fan guns, it's a pain. No that you can't work with them, but why bother when you have other equipment available. And the air/water guns put out more volume anyway. At least the Rats.

[freeheel_skier]

Thanks for the breakdown BMM. All the questions regardint resurfacing and snowmaking peaked my curiosity. I had to ask.

Win thanks for your imput too.

[HowieT2]

I have a couple of questions since you seem to actually know what you're talking about.
I saw the demo fan gun parked by the maintenance building at LP between new years and 1/4. Why wasn't it being used? Is it because the conditions made the other equipment more efficient?
When I last skied on 1/4, they had been blowing snow on Stein's for 3 days straight. Don't get me wrong, Stein's was great and I know it needs to be built up for the spring, but it was great after day one. Why wasn't that capacity utilized to get some snow on north Lynx and get that area open? With Castlerock and North Lynx closed on friday the crowds were bad (by SB standards). I also don't understand why they haven't put some snow down on lower Ripcord leading to the HG which was in terrible shape.

I think we can all accept reasonable limitations and tradeoffs that have to be made in deciding where/when to make snow. What is not acceptable, having done our part and paid for our passes, houses, blazers etc., is if the snowmaking is being limited to save a few bucks (I am not saying that that is the case).

I'll have to defer to Win on this one. I'm not up to speed with what's going on over at Lincoln Peak, nor am I working in snowmaking this year.

But rest assured that snowmaking isn't being limited just to pinch pennies. Recognize the difference between intelligent fiscal decisions, and just trying to save money. It would be a waste of that money from your passes, etc. to blow snow where it isn't really needed. Save that money for when or where it IS needed!

Not sure about the demo gun, but I'll offer some potential reasons. If the period you're talking about was during those sub-zero nights, then the air/water guns would have been more efficient and less of a headache. When the valves and nozzles freeze on those fan guns, it's a pain. No that you can't work with them, but why bother when you have other equipment available. And the air/water guns put out more volume anyway. At least the Rats.

Thanks BMM.

[shadyjay]

I have a couple of questions since you seem to actually know what you're talking about.
I saw the demo fan gun parked by the maintenance building at LP between new years and 1/4. Why wasn't it being used? Is it because the conditions made the other equipment more efficient?
When I last skied on 1/4, they had been blowing snow on Stein's for 3 days straight. Don't get me wrong, Stein's was great and I know it needs to be built up for the spring, but it was great after day one. Why wasn't that capacity utilized to get some snow on north Lynx and get that area open? With Castlerock and North Lynx closed on friday the crowds were bad (by SB standards). I also don't understand why they haven't put some snow down on lower Ripcord leading to the HG which was in terrible shape.

I think we can all accept reasonable limitations and tradeoffs that have to be made in deciding where/when to make snow. What is not acceptable, having done our part and paid for our passes, houses, blazers etc., is if the snowmaking is being limited to save a few bucks (I am not saying that that is the case).

I'll have to defer to Win on this one. I'm not up to speed with what's going on over at Lincoln Peak, nor am I working in snowmaking this year.

But rest assured that snowmaking isn't being limited just to pinch pennies. Recognize the difference between intelligent fiscal decisions, and just trying to save money. It would be a waste of that money from your passes, etc. to blow snow where it isn't really needed. Save that money for when or where it IS needed!

Not sure about the demo gun, but I'll offer some potential reasons. If the period you're talking about was during those sub-zero nights, then the air/water guns would have been more efficient and less of a headache. When the valves and nozzles freeze on those fan guns, it's a pain. No that you can't work with them, but why bother when you have other equipment available. And the air/water guns put out more volume anyway. At least the Rats.


I've made snow with both fan guns and traditional air/waters. Fan guns do make good snow but yes you do have to worry about the nozzles freezing up. We used to have a lot of that when I worked at a ski area in CT, one that hasn't opened for a few years. We used to have a good amount of both guns, but one thing to remember is that, while some fan guns have their own compressor for air, you still need electricity. And on my visual inspections throughout the mountain, each "station" has, for the most part, just air and water hydrants - no power. Sure, a fan gun could be positioned in the base or some other area where power is accessible. And I believe there's one mounted near the base of Straight Shot on Mt Ellen (where the halfpipe used to be). So to operate a fan gun elsewhere on the mtn, or a whole fleet of them for that matter, you'd need to wire up the trails. Now granted, Mt Snow heavily invested in this technology in the past few years, but their trails are much wider and (it seems) straighter than those at the Bush.

I saw that "demo" gun today going up the Bravo. Then now I see this thread. If the desire is to do the base with a fan gun, that I can see. But if its a decision between fan vs air waters, I'll go with the a/w. No need to wire up the entire mountain when the a/w guns work just fine and produce plenty of snow.

[Plowboy]

Plowboy... the break in the line by the school WAS repaired. Regardless of the current condition of that line, IMO... there's no point in even thinking about replacing during the winter months.

I missed that fix. I know they would not replace that line during the winter, but I would think about replacing that line this summer. Like I said that line has had a lot of problems in the past few years. I have seen water coming out in the parking lot, along the ME Access Rd. and on German Flats. I am surprised there has not been a bad accident on German Flats due to ice and gravel on the rd. when it breaks there.

[John Walden]

My ski gang said the same thing about Stein's. It skiied great after one day of snowmaking. Why not move to other areas that were in need of snow; such as North Lynx.

Kudos to Win and his team. We were able to ski 9 out of 12 days during Christmas break. Some days were marginal; crowds, wind, rain- but it's NE. Off to Utah on Saturday for 10 days.

[skibum1321]

I disagree about the snowmaking on Stein's. Yes, it was good after one day, but I would rather see them load up on it to get it ready for spring. North Lynx doesn't see a whole lot of traffic and would have done very little to relieve crowding. Personally, I wouldn't blow over there at all, as I see it as kind of a waste. I prefer that as few trails as possible get hit with the guns because the snow quality suffers big time once snow has been blown. Sure, they'll be better until we get some snow, but long term they are worse off.

[summitchallenger]

Us Sugarbush Loyals are not the only ones scratching our heads on the snowmaking issue. These are two comments that came in from Killington regulars, who have been very vocal about their dislike for Killington.

Geoff's post from AlpineZone. (http://forums.alpinezone.com/46124-whats-my-best-choice-friday-northeast-3.html)

The second post is from KZone. (http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25251)

I think that the second one sums it up pretty well...Win and Company have really delivered on the customer service piece. I think that goes a long way to keeping us there. I think that the aim is to market the experience and to personalize it, whereas with Killington, SKI, and to some extent ASC, the "product" was the snow. I think that the snow has been OK, but that is considering the weather and the economy. Snowmaking is expensive and tough...but I just think that it has been OK compared to years past.

An obvious caveat though was that he was skiing at Mount Ellen and the wind damage was pretty bad on Cruiser and Lower Elbow. No groomer or snowmaking can fix that. But I think our comments have been focused on the amount of time to recover and what can be done. Maybe we are being a bit unrealistic. I don't know. I think we just are calling it as we see it.

One thing to keep in mind is the tradeoffs that are made to keep a business running. We got the Lincoln Peak village. I noticed upon my return in 2007 that the rental compressors at the Lincoln Peak snowmaking building on the mountain (above the Bravo base) were removed and have not been replaced elsewhere. This makes senes because there is less noise and million dollar condo owners don't like to hear compressors running. But what I have asked, and still have not seen, is if those compressors were moved or simply have not been replaced. From what I have seen, it is the latter and this means less capacity.

[ski_resort_observer]

One thing to keep in mind is the tradeoffs that are made to keep a business running.We got the Lincoln Peak village. I noticed upon my return in 2007 that the rental compressors at the Lincoln Peak snowmaking building on the mountain (above the Bravo base) were removed and have not been replaced elsewhere. This makes senes because there is less noise and million dollar condo owners don't like to hear compressors running. But what I have asked, and still have not seen, is if those compressors were moved or simply have not been replaced. From what I have seen, it is the latter and this means less capacity.

Actually, with the guns running often for the past 10 ten days at the bottom of Gatehouse it is very loud at night right next to Claybrook. One night last week Sandy and I found ourselves at the same spot photographing the parade/fireworks and the guns were so loud we had to practically scream to converse. We wanted to be to the north of the bottom of Gatehouse lift but cause of the guns we ended up a few feet from Claybrook, right above the hot tub. During the busy holiday week I usually left Gatehouse around 6ish and the guns around the LP base were very loud. A very sweet sound is my very jaded take. Nice and quiet at my house. :wink:

Your right. guests/owners of Claybrook ARE important but so are all the other guests who ski/ride whether they be season pass holders or day skiers. Many decisions are made knowing that the result not going to make everyone happy.

Recovering from the meltdown especially around the base around due to high traffic it gets and the fact that after the meltdown we were joking about lawnmowers in view of the green grass making up parts of the base area.

So, there has been lots of snowmaking, loud snowmaking, at the bottom of Gatehouse so far this season, "million dollar condo owners" non-withstanding. "One thing to keep in mind is the tradeoffs that are made to keep a business running". So true, so true.

[Tin Woodsman]

I saw that "demo" gun today going up the Bravo. Then now I see this thread. If the desire is to do the base with a fan gun, that I can see. But if its a decision between fan vs air waters, I'll go with the a/w. No need to wire up the entire mountain when the a/w guns work just fine and produce plenty of snow.
I think you are creating a false choice here. I don't think anyone has suggested that the use of fans guns is an all or nothing proposition. Clearly, there are only certain trails where the production and cost characteristics make sense. I would argue that wider, heavily used runs like Spring Fling, Pushover, Cruiser, Inverness and even Birch Run (plus a few key intersections like Times Sq at North and the Steins/Lower OG/Lower Jester/Coffee run area at South) are appropriate targets. Upper elevation or narrower trails likely don't make as much sense. Even Mt. Snow still has a mix of the different technologies, though for them it seems to make sense to weight it more towards fans b/c of generally warmer temps, wider trails, less natural snow, and shorter snowmaking windows.

[Yard Sale]

I believe the absence of those machines and the associated business decision tradeoffs described by Win IFRC were cost of renting/leasing the equipment, cost of operating the equipment (diesel fuel), and the environmental impact (again diesel fuel)

I don't recall noise being cited but I'm sure it is a consideration. But i would also think that as an owner of slope side accomodations one would understand the benefit and necessity of having snow making equipment nearby and accept the trade offs with the acquistion of such choice realestate.

[Tin Woodsman]

I disagree about the snowmaking on Stein's. Yes, it was good after one day, but I would rather see them load up on it to get it ready for spring. North Lynx doesn't see a whole lot of traffic and would have done very little to relieve crowding. Personally, I wouldn't blow over there at all, as I see it as kind of a waste. I prefer that as few trails as possible get hit with the guns because the snow quality suffers big time once snow has been blown. Sure, they'll be better until we get some snow, but long term they are worse off.
I disagree with this pretty strongly. On a typical holiday ski day, North Lynx, and specifically Birch Run, sees a lot more traffic than Steins ever does. Holiday skiers are more likely to be cruiser/family types than hard cores coming up to ski Steins. Without snowmaking, Birch Run would be open about two months out of the year, at best, b/c of its exposure and width. And while they do need to build base depths on Steins to support the spring skiing there, that's a self-imposed choice based on what's convenient for owners at Clay Brook and to help defray fixed costs of the new GH Lodge, not what delivers the best Spring skiing product.

There are plenty of cold days left in the season to build base depths on Steins, but X-Mas and New Years have now come and gone with a closed NL and crowded lift lines. There may be a logic to it, but I don't see it.

[John Walden]

I see that someone agrees with me on this one about Stein's. I maybe dating myself, but I remember North Lynx back in the Poma days. There was no snow making and those trails weren't open much during a marginal year. With the lift and snow making, it's a great run first thing in the morning with the sun on it.

Don't get me wrong about Stein's , but there are other benefits to making snow elsewhere.

[freeheel_skier]

I disagree about the snowmaking on Stein's. Yes, it was good after one day, but I would rather see them load up on it to get it ready for spring. North Lynx doesn't see a whole lot of traffic and would have done very little to relieve crowding. Personally, I wouldn't blow over there at all, as I see it as kind of a waste. I prefer that as few trails as possible get hit with the guns because the snow quality suffers big time once snow has been blown. Sure, they'll be better until we get some snow, but long term they are worse off.
I disagree with this pretty strongly. On a typical holiday ski day, North Lynx, and specifically Birch Run, sees a lot more traffic than Steins ever does. Holiday skiers are more likely to be cruiser/family types than hard cores coming up to ski Steins. Without snowmaking, Birch Run would be open about two months out of the year, at best, b/c of its exposure and width. And while they do need to build base depths on Steins to support the spring skiing there, that's a self-imposed choice based on what's convenient for owners at Clay Brook and to help defray fixed costs of the new GH Lodge, not what delivers the best Spring skiing product.

There are plenty of cold days left in the season to build base depths on Steins, but X-Mas and New Years have now come and gone with a closed NL and crowded lift lines. There may be a logic to it, but I don't see it.

I don't know what the logic is TW. My .02 would be why waste resources to cover something that will close early anyway? Steins probably will see more skiers over the course of the season than NL (due to the fact that NL is done earlier). Maybe I spend too much time @ ME? But I have never expierenced a wait longer than a couple of minutes @ NL.

I would like to see the stats if any on how many skiers hit up NL over the course of the season. I assume mgmt has this info and that is why they have excuted their snowmaking plan this way. Where the hell is BMM when you need him :lol: :lol:

[MntMan4Bush]

So far on NL I've logged 0 runs, but that's been because it's been closed. So my count again would be 0 :wink:

If they're not going to bother making snow on it when it needs it then why not just shut that entire peak down and let it re-forest? Bit extreme? OK. So then how about some snow. It's a shame that we have to choose between blowing on Steins and blowing on Birch. It's been beaten like most of Mike Tyson's dates but wouldn't it be nice to have snow making at both? I saw a post about Killington on the forum and while the Customer Service is unquestionably better at SB no one really wanted to comment on the snow making or lack there of. Everyone seemed to be of the mindset that it was one or the other. Why can't we be great with Customer Service AND have good snow. We don't have to have more then Killington, but we can at least come close. To offer a preemptive rebuke to the two sure to follow comments:

1) I choose to ski at SB because I love the mountain and want it to be constantly better. I've been a season pass holder for several years and just got my wife one this season so hold back on your "If you like it so much there......." comments

2) In order of preference. 1) Natural Snow (I mainly stay on Spills, Twist and ME at South and Bravo, Exterminator, Encore at North) 2) Man Made 3) No snow. As you can see while natural snow is preferable, no snow falls a distant 3rd.

Just one guy talking here for what it's worth.................

[Tin Woodsman]

I don't know what the logic is TW. My .02 would be why waste resources to cover something that will close early anyway? Steins probably will see more skiers over the course of the season than NL (due to the fact that NL is done earlier). Maybe I spend too much time @ ME? But I have never expierenced a wait longer than a couple of minutes @ NL.

I would like to see the stats if any on how many skiers hit up NL over the course of the season. I assume mgmt has this info and that is why they have excuted their snowmaking plan this way. Where the hell is BMM when you need him :lol: :lol:
I'd be willing to bet that on a per day open basis, Birch Run gets more traffic than Steins. Most of the people in that couple minute liftline for NL are going to Birch Run, which really can't be said for any other major lift on the hill. Ultimately, the universe of people who are able to ski Steins is rather small - maybe 20-30% of people out there at most. The universe of people who can ski Birch Run is closer to 80% or more of skiers. It's sunny, wide open, usually groomed and has a perfect pitch for cruising that you really don't find in many places at LP, unfortunately. Moreover, as goes Birch Run, so goes the North Lynx chair - that run sees the vast majority of on-piste traffic riding the NL lift. So when BR is closed, then NL is closed, and when NL is closed, that shuts off a giant swath of Slide Brook, not to mention several other well known areas that need not be mentioned. So by refusing to blow snow on Birch Run, you are eliminating access not only to that trail, but also to Morning Star (generally holds snow well due to narrow width, at least on bottom 2/3, and benefits from blow-in from BR snowmaking) and some of the more popular tree runs at the mountain. All of that in exchange for building base depths on Steins when it already has sufficient coverage and no other trails would be impacted even if it didn't. When you furthermore consider that the need to build those base depths is predicated on a spring skiing decision that has little to do with what is best from a pure skiing perspective (yes, I know this is a business), it sort of chaps my ass.

[MntMan4Bush]

Gotta remember to not let TW borrow my Chapstick........... :shock:

[jwt]

If a given business is about satisfying the majority of customers, then TW post is hard to dispute. Sure it has sun exposure, but it is January - it's not going to get lower ( Sun)

I'm more of a Steins guy , but love MS and of coure SB w/o a short hike up MS. And though I'm not a speed cruiser, TW is exactly right about BR being one of the ONLY places on South one can let'em ride, due to wide trail design.

I would say that the 20-30% expert is high though. And then there is the Orchard and . . . . .

It is a great lift with few lines and many different lines down the three trails. It should be utilized more.

Outside of Cruiser or Rim at North, and maybe Snowball, where can one really turn the GS on? GH lift has too many small ones and beginners to do that with too many people.
Then there is the weather forecast - no warming trends in sight.

[Tin Woodsman]

I would say that the 20-30% expert is high though. And then there is the Orchard and . . . . .
Agreed and shhhh, in that order.



It is a great lift with few lines and many different lines down the three trails. It should be utilized more.

Outside of Cruiser or Rim at North, and maybe Snowball, where can one really turn the GS on? GH lift has too many small ones and beginners to do that with too many people.
Then there is the weather forecast - no warming trends in sight.
right. At LP, you've got Snowball> Spring Fling or Lower Snowball, Deathspout for the first hour of the day, and perhaps Glade>Lower OG until the latter trail becomes death slide-o-rama mid-day. Can't let it loose on Jester and all of GH needs to be handled with care for reasons you mentioned. Birch is a lot more important than people realize and should get more attention - hence my call for fan guns to bury it early.

[Tin Woodsman]

Gotta remember to not let TW borrow my Chapstick........... :shock:

Would you like a chocolate covered pretzel? :lol:

[HowieT2]

The issue isn't between opening steins or opening north lynx, but between building a base on steins for the spring and opening north lynx. Steins was skiing great after one day of snow making. Even better after the second day. I would assume one day of snowmaking on birch run would have been sufficient to open it. It is the beginning of january so there is plenty of time to get back to building steins up. My understanding is that moving the operation involves significant manpower. However, I would think getting NL open is worth it.
I love taking a couple of laps off NL before heading through the woods to CR.

[Strat]

Just as a note, Stein's was exciting today; not exactly in the best sense of the word. Certainly a fun challenge though with the 3-4 inches of sand on top... turn, scrape, slide, turn, scrape, turn, slide, scrape...

[barkbiter]

I don't know what the logic is TW. My .02 would be why waste resources to cover something that will close early anyway? Steins probably will see more skiers over the course of the season than NL (due to the fact that NL is done earlier). Maybe I spend too much time @ ME? But I have never expierenced a wait longer than a couple of minutes @ NL.

I would like to see the stats if any on how many skiers hit up NL over the course of the season. I assume mgmt has this info and that is why they have excuted their snowmaking plan this way. Where the hell is BMM when you need him :lol: :lol:
I'd be willing to bet that on a per day open basis, Birch Run gets more traffic than Steins. Most of the people in that couple minute liftline for NL are going to Birch Run, which really can't be said for any other major lift on the hill. Ultimately, the universe of people who are able to ski Steins is rather small - maybe 20-30% of people out there at most. The universe of people who can ski Birch Run is closer to 80% or more of skiers. It's sunny, wide open, usually groomed and has a perfect pitch for cruising that you really don't find in many places at LP, unfortunately. Moreover, as goes Birch Run, so goes the North Lynx chair - that run sees the vast majority of on-piste traffic riding the NL lift. So when BR is closed, then NL is closed, and when NL is closed, that shuts off a giant swath of Slide Brook, not to mention several other well known areas that need not be mentioned. So by refusing to blow snow on Birch Run, you are eliminating access not only to that trail, but also to Morning Star (generally holds snow well due to narrow width, at least on bottom 2/3, and benefits from blow-in from BR snowmaking) and some of the more popular tree runs at the mountain. All of that in exchange for building base depths on Steins when it already has sufficient coverage and no other trails would be impacted even if it didn't. When you furthermore consider that the need to build those base depths is predicated on a spring skiing decision that has little to do with what is best from a pure skiing perspective (yes, I know this is a business), it sort of chaps my ass.

Wah wah................wow, quantifying the reasons to ski blue and .........and........why we're all scared of the steep bumps. May I quote you the next time I feel the need to chicken out ?

[Tin Woodsman]

Wah wah................wow, quantifying the reasons to ski blue and .........and........why we're all scared of the steep bumps. May I quote you the next time I feel the need to chicken out ?
I bow at your epic level of core.

Quick, everyone look at barkbiter to see the physical embodiment of Internet gnar!

You're right - why waste time even blowing snow on anthing other than expert terrain. In fact, they would probably be better off letting GH and NL grow in with trees - only cry babies ski over there. I look forward to seeing you skin up those abandoned trail pods with a 3" base in November on your way to score more gnar points in Slide Brook.

[barkbiter]

Wah wah................wow, quantifying the reasons to ski blue and .........and........why we're all scared of the steep bumps. May I quote you the next time I feel the need to chicken out ?
I bow at your epic level of core.

Quick, everyone look at barkbiter to see the physical embodiment of Internet gnar!

You're right - why waste time even blowing snow on anthing other than expert terrain. In fact, they would probably be better off letting GH and NL grow in with trees - only cry babies ski over there. I look forward to seeing you skin up those abandoned trail pods with a 3" base in November on your way to score more gnar points in Slide Brook.

You also forgot to mention the Magic Carpet was down for a few hours last week........I bet that really chapped your tough guy hide. I know I was mad, we had to walk up twice ! :oops:

[HowieT2]

It is now thursday and they still haven't made any snow on North Lynx which means it will likely be closed this weekend. Could someone please explain the logic behind this. :shock:

[Tin Woodsman]

You also forgot to mention the Magic Carpet was down for a few hours last week........I bet that really chapped your tough guy hide. I know I was mad, we had to walk up twice ! :oops:
The value you bring to this forum is truly limitless.

[barkbiter]

You also forgot to mention the Magic Carpet was down for a few hours last week........I bet that really chapped your tough guy hide. I know I was mad, we had to walk up twice ! :oops:
The value you bring to this forum is truly limitless.

Now you're hurting my feelings. :( I think some people like me here, don't they ??

[John Walden]

I am leaving for Alta / Snowbird Saturday morning ; so perhaps this whole snowmaking debate will be resolve upon my return to Sugarbush in two weeks.

[HowieT2]

I am leaving for Alta / Snowbird Saturday morning ; so perhaps this whole snowmaking debate will be resolve upon my return to Sugarbush in two weeks.

lucky. bring some snow back east with you.

[jwt]

at type time - Jay is reporting more snow to date ( 229) than Alta or Powder. . . . . . . of course, it probably wasn't 60 degrees at Chrostmas out there. .

[ski_resort_observer]

at type time - Jay is reporting more snow to date ( 229) than Alta or Powder. . . . . . . of course, it probably wasn't 60 degrees at Chrostmas out there. .

From the Jay website they show 179" total with a base depth of 18"-36", not exactly the numbers that's going to make people come rushing out of the Wasatch to northern Vermont.

[notorious]

You also forgot to mention the Magic Carpet was down for a few hours last week........I bet that really chapped your tough guy hide. I know I was mad, we had to walk up twice ! :oops:
The value you bring to this forum is truly limitless.

Now you're hurting my feelings. :( I think some people like me here, don't they ??

Love the BB---7 (EMoney,Moscow Express,me, when in an altered state, the CRO, RobbyD,Dr Huck,your Mom) and a slew of munchkins of non-voting age
Like the BB---the ProTeam,the XTeam (as long as you are paying)
Want the BB---people in search of a function speaker
Want to be like the BB---the few remaining stooge fans
Need the BB---small people looking for someone to lead a jail break, that's why you go first until the woods open up
Looking for the BB---the ski patrol process servers, 499 outstanding citations for road hogging and skiing without a license
Avidly looking for the BB---anyone who has accepted your checks, the beatdown boys from Prince George's County
Confused by the BB---the participants on this forum, the remainder of the universe
Not sure about BB---the skidder, the outback gliders
Don't like the BB---TW
Really don't like the BB---ex-wives 1-4, inclusive, all your ex-bosses
Knows the BB---lifties from MTs all over the world that most of us have never been to
Want's to know the BB ---Win, so he can personally ban you from his MT

The BB definitely has a seat on the skibum bus, amateur division
Anyone else have anything to say on this subject?

[Hawk]

Yes....you guys crack me up with your little BP code names and acronym lingo thing. :lol:
Time to stop harassing people and hit the slopes.

See you out there dudes!

[John Walden]

Correction: As of this morning at Alta:

93" settled snow depth'

245" snowfall to date.

There's 4 of us from Sugarbush and two from Stowe going out.

[HowieT2]

A foot of fresh snow and now the entire mountain is open ..... except for North Lynx, which evidently should be excised from the trail map. But still building depth on snowball and spring fling which doesn't do anyone any good until April.

[John Walden]

I want to go on record that not making snow this season on North Lynx was a mistake. Those trails held up real well last season and we skiied them late into the spring.

One person's opinion; I still like Stein's.

[vonski]

sure am glad that I am at Ellen only this year. I would be sorely missing the Orchard by now. except this morning there is no snowmaking icons on the map for Ellen. :shock: and cliffs is patrols pick without snowmaking yet. I guess the new snow bonded well.

[MntMan4Bush]

Did someone here just take a Jay Snow Report seriously? Come on.!!!!!!!! They measure where the plow drops. By August of this year they were already reporting 74 inches total accumulation with a 93 inch base. I'd sooner take Nathan Lane's advice on how to please a woman then listen to a Jay report as if it had some hint at being accurate.

[ski_resort_observer]

Did someone here just take a Jay Snow Report seriously? Come on.!!!!!!!! They measure where the plow drops. By August of this year they were already reporting 74 inches total accumulation with a 93 inch base. I'd sooner take Nathan Lane's advice on how to please a woman then listen to a Jay report as if it had some hint at being accurate.

I checked the Jay website last night...the 179" total sounds like alot to me but we are talking about Jay here. They are also reporting a 18" to 36" base, less than several other Vermont resorts.

I did watch a blob of snow heading our way last night and was hopeful we would get another shot but it went just south of us hitting kmart and points south.