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View Full Version : 3 Thoughts from me about last weekend



mattlucas
12-24-2008, 05:54 PM
1. The patrol and Mountain ops did a fantastic job.

I felt bad that they spent so long foot packing lift line to watch the wind scour it, but I had so many good experiences with staff it really reminded me of the best that Sugarbush has to offer.

Everyone that came to ski Sugarbush with me this weekend has been truly converted due to snow, customer service, terrain, the valley etc.
LP and ME were skied sans Slide Brook. No one had any complaints (except me), just lots of smiles. Thanks for vindicating my 20+ years on the mountain,
you guys are doing a phenomenal job.

2. (beware of whining!) MGMT - Can you please reassess the cost of RF tickets each year until they become feasible?

As an impatient NY'er/part time Jerk, the sight of all those empty chairs going up the hill even for the GATE HOUSE at 3:30 was heartbreaking.
The scanner batteries die all the time in the cold, and I'm lucky if half the time I get a ticket that can be read the first or second time. I understand that you
guys need the data to distribute labor efficiently and make snowmaking decisions etc, but RF is just much faster and I feel that the art of loading
chairs has been totally lost EVERYWHERE due to these devices, not just SB.

3. Thanks again for an awesome trip.

shadyjay
12-25-2008, 02:11 AM
As part of the Sugarbush team, thanks for the positive comments. While I've only been with the mountain a week, we all do what we can to provide the best possible experience for our customers. Obviously we cannot control some aspects, such as wind and weather 8)

I truly feel your pain (and everyone else's) about the scanning. They do seem to have some issues in the cold. From what I have noticed, it kind of better manages the crowd control within the corral. After a row has been scanned, they move directly up towards the chair. The only time when chairs get sent up empty is if it is slow - vs the corral full. I apologize but it is our duty to scan everyone. I'm not sure what is done with the data that is scanned, but for those who have "direct to lift" cards, that is how they get charged for their day. It isn't fair to those who pay $70+ for a lift ticket and then to have someone slip by with a Sugarcard and ride for free because they weren't scanned. I've heard it all about the scanners since day 1. Understand they don't work the best on really cold days and that us in lift ops have no control over their replacement. That's just my $.02 on that.

Merry Christmas everyone..... be back to the mtn on Saturday!

TimKeogh
12-25-2008, 03:26 PM
Even if it takes 2 or 3 shots at reading the barcode, it is really a non-issue IMHO.

The lines are usually non-existent, and my heart is racing and I am breathing hard as I approach the lift.

So a minute or two interacting with a SB employee during a scan is actually a welcome breather and an enjoyable time to chit-chat.

skibum1321
12-26-2008, 08:34 AM
The only time when chairs get sent up empty is if it is slow - vs the corral full.
That is not true at all. It took at least a minute for them to scan my fiancee's pass on Monday morning (when there was a line for first chair). As a result at least 2 chairs went up empty while we waited. Especially for season passes, I think they should try a couple of times and then just let you go. The better lifties definitely do that, but some just keep trying.

Lostone
12-26-2008, 09:37 AM
The better lifties definitely do that

"better" is a point of view. The people paying them would say they weren't really better, as they aren't doing their job. The scanners' job is not only to get people on the lift, but to ensure that only those who've paid do so.

I agree that the scanners are a pain, but by your own statement,
It took at least a minute for them to scan my fiancee's pass It ain't that long. Granted, on Monday morning, a minute seemed like an hour, but it is still... a minute.

Strat
12-26-2008, 10:46 AM
In my experience, most of the time if it doesn't work within 10 seconds or so, they let you go ahead... it's the rare liftie who puts in more effort than that...

skibum1321
12-26-2008, 08:02 PM
I agree that the scanners are a pain, but by your own statement,
It took at least a minute for them to scan my fiancee's pass It ain't that long. Granted, on Monday morning, a minute seemed like an hour, but it is still... a minute.
That absolutely is a long time to scan one pass. Just imagine if it took them that long to scan every pass. I realize that they want them to scan all of the passes but they also shouldn't be holding up the line to do so. There is a fine balance there and I think that scanning 95% of the passes should be good enough (and I think most lifties do realize that).

vonski
12-27-2008, 10:44 AM
I believe it was two years ago, that I had an older style pass. The barcode was much smaller. The liftie saw the pass and scanned it quickly and said that the old passes scan much easier than the new ones. Not sure why they switched the bar code to the bigger style, but the scanners used to work quickly. Could there be something with the new barcodes that actually causes the problems? I am only going by what a liftie told me. Maybe the bigger bar code holds more secret information about us!!!! :shock: :lol:

shadyjay
12-27-2008, 06:22 PM
By scanning... we know EVERYTHING about you! It even has a GPS tracking system in it so we know when you expert skiers are going down Pushover, and we know that everyone's favorite trail is Downspout :D :D :D

Seriously, unfortunetely from what I've experienced, the following effect the scanners:
* snow
* direct sunlight
* rain
* cold

We do our best - its our job - and we try to be fair. I haven't seen any of my fellow lifties spend more than 10 sec on someone. If your pass isn't scanned one round, it'll get it the next time around. But our word is to scan everyone everytime.

slatham
12-29-2008, 10:48 AM
Win, there needs to be a "from the top" simple rule that chairs don't go up empty due to scanning issues. It is a sin to have this happen. But baring an empty chair, everyone should get scanned.


BTW, I don't personally recall any issues, but I'm unfortunately a lift ticket vs seasons pass guy, and it seems most of the issues are with passes.

Also, I find it very difficult to believe someone is going to try to sneak on without a pass/ticket or an old one when there's someone scanning everyone. To think that the handful of people who might go by unscanned in order to avoid an empty chair are sneaking by without a ticket is a stretch, IMHO.

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2008, 02:45 PM
It ain't that long. Granted, on Monday morning, a minute seemed like an hour, but it is still... a minute.
That's an incredible cop out. You think it's acceptable to allow 10 chairs to go up empty with long lift lines just so that stubborn ticket can finally get scanned? That's a rather perverted view of quality guest service.

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2008, 02:57 PM
While we're talking about three thoughts from the weekend, here are mine from this weekend:

1) Great job by mtn ops getting the hill in good shape the last few days despite incredibly challenging weather conditions. Snowball/Spring Fling were great the last 3-4 days as were most other groomers. We drove up on Wednesday night with the lowest of expectations and they were very much exceeded.

2) Every year when I arrive for the first time, I take stock of what the mtn forest looks like and I was once again appalled by the lack of attention paid to the health of trees on or around the trails. A significant portion of a beautiful birch glade on mid Ripcord was killed by the snowmakers this year - the trunks and crowns look like they exploded. That entire area on skiers left of Ripcord down to the Paradise Extension merge and beyond looks increasingly sickly. Still more damage to trees on/around other snowmaking trails like Glade. The upper mtn forest continues to thin out with blowdowns and other accelerated areas of deadfall. Looks like skier's left of Jester will be an open snowfield in 10-20 years. I understand that we've got to deal with the USFS here, but surely they are as incentivized as anyone to ensure the health of the forest, no? How the avoidance of tree damage isn't a priority for the snowmaking team is really beyond me. And if it is, then the program is a failure.

3) For a resort that styles itself as a family oriented mountain, can someone please explain to me why there is not ONE single child booster seat in the entire Gate House lodge? Sure, I could get one in Timbers, but that's not where 95% of customers spend their time, and most kids (or more likely, their parents) aren't interested in Fish and Chips for $18. It's either an oversight, or a conscious decision. Neither option paints SB in a flattering light.

4) Love my annex but the bar still sticks out too far, cutting off flow in the room. Whatevs - the extra space was desperately needed.

Lostone
12-29-2008, 04:42 PM
You think it's acceptable to allow 10 chairs to go up empty with long lift lines

I think that is a total exaggeration. He said 2 chairs. You boosted it to 10. My statement was that the delay was for a very short time. I stand by that. He said it took at least a minute! That would be 60 whole seconds! :roll:

You may not like it, but the job of the scanners is to scan every ticket. You know that getting past the scanners once allows you to ski all day, without a ticket.

You may feel the percentage being allowed is too small versus the irritation of the paying customers. You're entitled to your opinion.

Lostone
12-29-2008, 04:50 PM
As a matter of fact, when there are lines, the scanners generally advance thru the lines, scanning long before people get to the merges. I see very little of chairs going up empty because of scanning problems.

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2008, 04:50 PM
You think it's acceptable to allow 10 chairs to go up empty with long lift lines

I think that is a total exaggeration. He said 2 chairs. You boosted it to 10. My statement was that the delay was for a very short time. I stand by that. He said it took at least a minute! That would be 60 whole seconds! :roll:
10 chairs go by in a minute - one every six seconds. I trust you don't find that stopping a crowded liftline for a full minute is acceptable from a customer service perspective.



You may not like it, but the job of the scanners is to scan every ticket. You know that getting past the scanners once allows you to ski all day, without a ticket.

You may feel the percentage being allowed is too small versus the irritation of the paying customers. You're entitled to your opinion.
Yes, and my opinion is that relying upon a technology which is proven to be faulty in weather conditions that are commonly experienced in mountain environments is empirically idiotic.

FWIW, out of the three days I skied since Thursday, I had a "clean" scan (scanned correctly the first time) maybe 5-6 times out of several dozen opportunities for same. That lack of reliability will lead not only to people getting on w/o being scanned (the employees have a job, but they're human beings too) but also to customer dissatisfaction due to ongoing delays and a perception of a slapstick operation. I think we all agree that some sort of system is necessary for the reasons you mentioned. No one has argued against this, so please stop doing so. The issue is what's in place today.

shadyjay
12-29-2008, 04:53 PM
You may not like it, but the job of the scanners is to scan every ticket. You know that getting past the scanners once allows you to ski all day, without a ticket.


Lostone's got it. Most of our regulars get it as well.

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2008, 04:57 PM
You may not like it, but the job of the scanners is to scan every ticket. You know that getting past the scanners once allows you to ski all day, without a ticket.


Lostone's got it. Most of our regulars get it as well.
I don't think anyone, be they a regular or a never ever, would advocate having no scanners. Who is even making that argument?

skibum1321
12-29-2008, 05:03 PM
As a matter of fact, when there are lines, the scanners generally advance thru the lines, scanning long before people get to the merges. I see very little of chairs going up empty because of scanning problems.
True - and they also usually let you go within 10 seconds if your pass doesn't scan. My issue here was that they didn't let her go and therefore held up the line. Maybe I'm way off base here but it seems like the priority should be to fill the chairs before scanning every ticket.

MntMan4Bush
12-29-2008, 05:27 PM
I have no idea what type of scanners they have at Snowbird, but they can hit you from 10 feet away behind their backs while doing a handstand on a Russian donkey. Everyone gets scanned and no one gets held up. How about we look into those bad boys to holster up?

Also one quick comment on whether a liftie is perceived as good or bad based on POV. Perhaps what was meant was that some lifties recognize the season pass holders (as opposed to Sugarcard) and allow them to go through if there is a stubborn scan. It's no loss of revenue for season pass holders to slip in by and lifties often recognize us from year to year and regular appearances.

Lastly I had to laugh Shady and I only hope you meant it as a joke.

"Seriously, unfortunetely from what I've experienced, the following effect the scanners:
* snow
* direct sunlight
* rain
* cold "

The only thing missing is air. Are there any other conditions in the winter. This statement alone should be reason enough to send those things to the bottom of the dumpster.

Lostone
12-29-2008, 05:30 PM
I don't think anyone, be they a regular or a never ever, would advocate having no scanners. Who is even making that argument?

I don't think anyone was, or that I was saying they were. I was saying that, if you get past once, you can ski the upper lifts all day without being scanned again. Thus the rule to scan every ticket.

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2008, 06:17 PM
I don't think anyone, be they a regular or a never ever, would advocate having no scanners. Who is even making that argument?

I don't think anyone was, or that I was saying they were. I was saying that, if you get past once, you can ski the upper lifts all day without being scanned again. Thus the rule to scan every ticket.
Then why respond that "they must scan every ticket" when the discussion is about how unfortunate it is that they have scanners sensitive to all known meteorological conditions? It's a given that they should be trying to scan all tickets. The only question is how best to go about that, and whether the need for scanning outweighs the need to avoid empty chairs on busy days.

Lostone
12-29-2008, 07:16 PM
Where I came in was the statement that the better lifties give up after 10 seconds.

I totally agree that the scanners are a pain, but I've been called to sit in on the job, and the procedure was not fuzzy. "Every ticket, every time."

There was no time limit, or exceptions for weather. Not my rules, but I was explaining the rules as a reply to that statement. Should they decide to change the rules it won't bother me.



Today, in the line for Gatehouse, a couple, ahead of me asked the scanner why Slidebrook was closed, and how to get to North. He took the time to explain the reason and about taking the bus. While he was doing so, our line was stopped. The line to the right was moving toward the lift.

I was itching for him to get back to scanning, and let us go. Then I told myself to just cool it. He was being helpful. Were I them, I'd want him to be so. It really didn't set us back that long.

But I understand. Nobody comes to stand in line. When you are waiting for the lift, every minute seems like 3 to 5. It would be great if the scanners worked first time, every time. But even tho it is known they don't, and haven't ever, the job description given is always the same.

And for the record... My pass sucks. They have problems with it 1 out of every 3 times. And they know me. Many adress me by name. But they still scan me. I don't give them any grief. It is their job.

mattlucas
12-29-2008, 07:35 PM
Hey guys - i wasn't saying don't scan.

I'm out in co right now and they got the RF. I assume Vail resorts has more $ than we do but there must be a break even point. Lifties scan everyone, and then yell next in line when all corrals have been scanned and the staging area has cleared. All eight corrals go in sequence. No chairs end up empty, no one gets cut, and I like it. It's the future and I hope 09 has it.
But I'm not being critical. As far as I'm concerned, every complaint is a present to management and they can use them to be a top ten resort ANYWHERE or say, f those guys. I'll still ski here, because the terrain and snow and people rule.

---

I don't like everyone saying "you ski out east, I'll never do that again." What a bunch of closed minded ijiots out here. Guess they don't read the TR's of the last couple weeks before the thaw!

What would be AWESOME is if your pass / ticket had a login and pass for a web database so you could lookup the vert and lifts you skied. That would really rule for passholder looking back on the season. It could include cost/day and other tidbits. If Sugarbush invested in couple programers, it could be as awesome as adding 60 inches to the yearly snowfall.

HowieT2
12-29-2008, 08:29 PM
Hey guys - i wasn't saying don't scan.

I'm out in co right now and they got the RF. I assume Vail resorts has more $ than we do but there must be a break even point. Lifties scan everyone, and then yell next in line when all corrals have been scanned and the staging area has cleared. All eight corrals go in sequence. No chairs end up empty, no one gets cut, and I like it. It's the future and I hope 09 has it.
But I'm not being critical. As far as I'm concerned, every complaint is a present to management and they can use them to be a top ten resort ANYWHERE or say, f those guys. I'll still ski here, because the terrain and snow and people rule.

---

I don't like everyone saying "you ski out east, I'll never do that again." What a bunch of closed minded ijiots out here. Guess they don't read the TR's of the last couple weeks before the thaw!

What would be AWESOME is if your pass / ticket had a login and pass for a web database so you could lookup the vert and lifts you skied. That would really rule for passholder looking back on the season. It could include cost/day and other tidbits. If Sugarbush invested in couple programers, it could be as awesome as adding 60 inches to the yearly snowfall.

'nothing bothers me more than skiers complaining about how inferior eastern skiing is. We had a couple up to SB last year who had only skied out west for the last 15 years. The conditions were mediocre at the time and all they did was complain. My wife was ready to kill them. The east has its great days and some not so great days. They're all good to me. Skiing is like sex or pizza. When it's good it's really really good and when it's bad...it's still good. Would I love to be waist deep in Utah powder all the time? sure I would. But I've also flown out there when there hasn't been snow. It happens. But given that I live in NY, I'd rather ski 30-40 days a year then only 5 days out west. If the time comes when I win the lottery and can fly at a whim, I'll be heli skiing often, but until that day, I'll enjoy the good with the not so good of eastern skiing.

djd66
12-29-2008, 11:44 PM
RFID! Look, the technology is out there that will take care of this problem. I know I get p.o'd when there are scanner issues. I always turn to my wife and say " why don't they use RFID?" If it would get me through the line faster, I would be willing to pay bit more for my pass so I do not have to deal with the scanner. (Kind of like and Easy Pass/Fast Lane for RFID pass holders) I have not done much research on the sytem, but I know the technology exists. It would make my experience as a customer much better and I think it would be much more effective then the current system.

Win - is this any reason why you would not go to an RFID ticket system? Very least - use them for the pass holders?

ridelikeme
12-30-2008, 09:41 AM
Tin Woodsman would not have his castle rock annex this year if the resort went with RFID. It is a very expensive undertaking and the resort is most likely focusing on other areas of improvement of the guest experience ahead of RFID.
First time poster, long time lurker.

Tin Woodsman
12-30-2008, 09:53 AM
Tin Woodsman would not have his castle rock annex this year if the resort went with RFID. It is a very expensive undertaking and the resort is most likely focusing on other areas of improvement of the guest experience ahead of RFID.
First time poster, long time lurker.
How expensive? We're really talking about needing it for Bravo, GH, Inverness, GMX and I suppose VH.

ridelikeme
12-30-2008, 01:13 PM
Tin Woodsman would not have his castle rock annex this year if the resort went with RFID. It is a very expensive undertaking and the resort is most likely focusing on other areas of improvement of the guest experience ahead of RFID.
First time poster, long time lurker.
How expensive? We're really talking about needing it for Bravo, GH, Inverness, GMX and I suppose VH.

about 20k per lift plus the cost of pass media and software to make it all jive.

Tin Woodsman
12-30-2008, 02:32 PM
Tin Woodsman would not have his castle rock annex this year if the resort went with RFID. It is a very expensive undertaking and the resort is most likely focusing on other areas of improvement of the guest experience ahead of RFID.
First time poster, long time lurker.
How expensive? We're really talking about needing it for Bravo, GH, Inverness, GMX and I suppose VH.

about 20k per lift plus the cost of pass media and software to make it all jive.
So $100K for those five lifts plus more for the software and pass media? All in for, say, $150K? And would the pass media be purely incremental to what they are using now, or just more expensive?

Either way, that's not hugely expensive given that the current system doesn't function if one farts in the wrong place.

vonski
12-30-2008, 02:40 PM
Would the pass be totally different or could one use both technologies. Still have the bar code on the pass and the RF chip in it??? This way only would need RF guns at Bravo, Gate house and GMX. Inverness, Sunny D, Valley house and Village double and any other beginner lift could use the old technology. This would save some money.

djd66
12-30-2008, 03:26 PM
20K per lift - actually does not seem that bad to me. - It would pay for itself in less than 3 seasons. Figure you currently have 2 scanner guys at the base of each lift, 2 guys costs appox. $20/hr - 8 hrs/day, 56 hours per week = $1120/week The season is 20 weeks x $1120 = $22,400

Now I figure you will still have 1 employee at each lift to monitor the system + any other misc expenses - thing pays for itself in 3 years with money left over for a few fire pits!

Also, I have to figure Sugarbush is currently replacing the scanners every year as they must break all the time.

To me - the new technology makes sense - unless there are other factors that I do not know about.