PDA

View Full Version : The Future of SB's Classic Gladed Trails



Tin Woodsman
12-04-2008, 01:28 PM
This topic has been touched on in bits and pieces within other threads, but I think it's worth full exploring. If anyone has taken a moment to read Jay Appleton's excellent treatise on Eastern glade skiing (www.treeskier.com), one has to be concerned about the current and long-term health of the various gladed trails at SB. Classics like (Murphy's) Glade, Lower Moonshine, Sleeper, Lower Domino, Paradise, and Sunrise use to have far more trees on them. I'd include Brambles, but that's already destroyed in favor of GMVS - so be it. Others like Ripcord are growing wider by the year, especially on skiers' left. Due in part to snowmaking, overzealous mowing in the off-season, and lack of planning, those trees are slowly but surely dying off. To my eyes, I see absolutely zero effort to promote any semblance of protection or regeneration so as to ensure that the next generation of skiers can come to enjoy the same beautiful phenomenon as their predecessors. While I understand there are limits at LP given its presence on USFS land, I view this as a tremendous shame, and something that is very much out of character for a resort and an ownership group that tends to pay attention to these sorts of details. While SB isn't MRG and shouldn't try to be, this is one innovation that must be imported if the fundamental character of SB's terrain is to remain intact.

Hardbooter
12-04-2008, 03:26 PM
This has come up from time to time. I never get the feeling that anything has changed. We get snowmaking damage each year and blow-downs and people hacking their own runs but I have yet to see a marked regeneration zone. Well at least not since the late 90's when they allowed the top of Sunrise to grow to be narrower and allowed part of the old gondola line to regrow on lower grinder.
Maybe Sugarbush is doing a lot and we never notice but I think publicity should be part of the overall environmental plan. The plan should include telling people what you are doing and maybe indicating as much on the mountain. I think sugarbush should set up some bold orange police tape or something to let everyone know that we have a regen zone. Most of the woods skiers that I know would stay away from those areas. Hell, most of the woods skiers I know would be more than happy to hike up the mountain and put the tape up themselves (if it didn't block some great stash.)

Hmmm. I guess it would be bad if they just put the police tape all around all of slide brook except the designated trails. Ok, scratch that. I vote for small regen zones. like, 40-100 feet down the side of a trail or something.

Tin Woodsman
12-04-2008, 04:20 PM
It's been extremely successful and very much respected at MRG, so I have reason to believe that wouldn't be the same hear. Heck, it could be used as a stop on some sort of eco-tour of the mountain, including trips into Slide Brook.

Anything they do will have to involve regen zones, skier education, and a substantial modification of snowmaking practices on the impacted trails.

vonski
12-04-2008, 04:25 PM
I am no expert on this topic, but when I was riding Heaven Gates either on Turkey day or Friday, I noticed the snow really piling up on the trees along Ripcord. I then heard a large crack sound and saw the tree collapse that cracked under the weight of the man made snow. I think that there would need to be some additional efforts by the snow makers to monitor the snow guns to prevent this from happening. I was actually surprised to see the lack of attention to the guns after they are put in place. There were several that were just making a good base in the woods not on the trail.

summitchallenger
12-04-2008, 04:48 PM
I can also say that I skied some woods on the other side of LP and the damage was really surprising....but I think it is a combination of factors including acid rain. There were lots of softwoods down...and far from the trails. But snowmaking damage off of Ripcord, for some reason, looks like hell. The cutoff from Paradise over to Ripcord also looks like hell. The rest of the mountain looks good IMHO.

At Ellen, that line on FIS is extending further and further to skier's left. It really is growing a lot...just in my 10 years or so of skiing there....and I am really not thrilled to see people hacking in those woods. Those woods are so high that it takes them a lot of time to recover.

Tin Woodsman
12-04-2008, 05:07 PM
I can also say that I skied some woods on the other side of LP and the damage was really surprising....but I think it is a combination of factors including acid rain.
I think that's well down on the list of factors, not least b/c of the limitations put into place on SO2 emmissions over the last 20 years or so.


There were lots of softwoods down...and far from the trails.
Could be remants of the numerous ice/wind events in the last twelve months.


But snowmaking damage off of Ripcord, for some reason, looks like hell. The cutoff from Paradise over to Ripcord also looks like hell. The rest of the mountain looks good IMHO.
That whole triangle where the cut off is and over towards Ripcord is an absolute mess that should be cordoned off for a few years. Won't make a difference unless the snowmaking practices change though. Are you not concerned about the state of Murphy's Tree, oops Glade?


At Ellen, that line on FIS is extending further and further to skier's left. It really is growing a lot...just in my 10 years or so of skiing there....and I am really not thrilled to see people hacking in those woods. Those woods are so high that it takes them a lot of time to recover.
Left that off the list, but definitely a good catch.

summitchallenger
12-04-2008, 08:29 PM
Murphy's has trees on it??????? I thought those were fake because the real ones were cut down by Les Otten. :wink:

Last Tracks
12-04-2008, 08:40 PM
the left off FIS is one of the best shots at ME.

MRG has damage too, they aren't 100% innocent..

villager
12-04-2008, 09:17 PM
I agree with Hardbooter that if areas are cordoned off like at MRG, skiers will respect that and stay away. The problem is getting the right areas cordoned off. How did they do it at MRG? Who decided what areas to protect and who put up the barriers?

summitchallenger
12-04-2008, 09:19 PM
I agree with Hardbooter that if areas are cordoned off like at MRG, skiers will respect that and stay away. The problem is getting the right areas cordoned off. How did they do it at MRG? Who decided what areas to protect and who put up the barriers?

MRG has a forester on staff I think...or a consultant who advised them as to what to do and where.

Tin Woodsman
12-04-2008, 10:02 PM
the left off FIS is one of the best shots at ME.

MRG has damage too, they aren't 100% innocent..
That's looking in the rear view mirror. What's happening now? They spend money to have a forester come in every year and evaluate the health of the mountain forest and make recommendations. Jay Appleton, head of the Co-op Board, has (I believe) a Masters in Forestry himself. They know there's been damage, especially in places like Paradise, Glade, Quacky woods and various upper mountain woods shots. That's why they are doing something about it in an organized, broad-based fashion. While in certain respects they've got even larger problems than SB, I guarantee you they'll be in a FAR better situation than SB 30 years from now on present trends.

Hardbooter
12-04-2008, 11:52 PM
I think sugarbush could get the same forestry guy and probably Jay Appleton and a bunch of the on-staff sugarbush folks (some woods skiers and maybe someone from snowmaking who's seen the damage) and maybe Craig Spear who is in charge of the slidebrook guides. A group like that could do a great job of finding stuff to close off. With a few exceptions, I think most of the damage is near the ski trails. I'd like it if they ran it past a bunch of the locals and some of us weekend warriors too just to make sure that we're not messing with somebody's secret stash.
I suspect that parts of paradise glades would be be better off without skiers or and summertime hand-tool intervention for a few years. I'm sure we could find the lines that are good skiing and leave them alone and rope off a lot of the more marginal lines that have been opened over the years.

ski_resort_observer
12-05-2008, 01:44 AM
I agree with Hardbooter that if areas are cordoned off like at MRG, skiers will respect that and stay away. The problem is getting the right areas cordoned off. How did they do it at MRG? Who decided what areas to protect and who put up the barriers?

MRG has a forester on staff I think...or a consultant who advised them as to what to do and where.

Sugarbush has the GMFS as overseeers of our land use at LP. Lots of communication and consultation goes on between the two on a constant yearround basis.

At Mellon there are some trails where the trees have retaken terrain....lower FIS is the best example that comes to mind..protected from acid rain from the 60/70's and less exposure to the weather. A healthy trees will support alot of snow, dead trees/branches by way of wind, disease, acid rain, lightning, exposure on any upper mountain can crack whether it's laden with man-made or natural snow. That's how "above the treeline" becomes above the treeline. Mt. Washington and Mt Lafeyette over in the Whites have alot of "above the treeline" by eastern standards with no snowmaking. It's very hard for mother nature to grow new trees in the alpinezones. It's just the natural evolution of things with some assistance from us humans. I am confident that if there are some areas that need to be rested due to overuse I would hope that they are closed off.

FWIW during the summer there are several areas of LP where mountain bikers are prohibited from going.

HowieT2
12-05-2008, 07:53 AM
I agree with Hardbooter that if areas are cordoned off like at MRG, skiers will respect that and stay away. The problem is getting the right areas cordoned off. How did they do it at MRG? Who decided what areas to protect and who put up the barriers?

MRG has a forester on staff I think...or a consultant who advised them as to what to do and where.

Sugarbush has the GMFS as overseeers of our land use at LP. Lots of communication and consultation goes on between the two on a constant yearround basis.

At Mellon there are some trails where the trees have retaken terrain....lower FIS is the best example that comes to mind..protected from acid rain from the 60/70's and less exposure to the weather. A healthy trees will support alot of snow, dead trees/branches by way of wind, disease, acid rain, lightning, exposure on any upper mountain can crack whether it's laden with man-made or natural snow. That's how "above the treeline" becomes above the treeline. Mt. Washington and Mt Lafeyette over in the Whites have alot of "above the treeline" by eastern standards with no snowmaking. It's very hard for mother nature to grow new trees in the alpinezones. It's just the natural evolution of things with some assistance from us humans. I am confident that if there are some areas that need to be rested due to overuse I would hope that they are closed off.




I was surprised this summer not to have seen any areas closed off especially around Paradise. Given the length of the ski season I would think it's more important to close areas during the 7-8 months when there's no skiing. That being said, given the explosion in off piste skiing, this is going to be an increasingly important issue in the coming years. The other thing is that this not something that one can simply throw money at to remediate. Addressing the issue is a long term challenge which neither SB nor other areas can tackle by continuing past practices. There simply is a lot more traffic there then there ever was before.

BTW- nice to chat about forest management, web cams, frozen pizza, yada yada yada but can we get some freaking weather to talk about. I know it's only 12/5, but there is 'nothing on the horizon. We need a communal web enabled snow dance.

FWIW during the summer there are several areas of LP where mountain bikers are prohibited from going.

freeheel_skier
12-05-2008, 08:00 AM
I'd like it if they ran it past a bunch of the locals and some of us weekend warriors too just to make sure that we're not messing with somebody's secret stash.

But then it wouldn't be a secret anymore! :wink:

ski_resort_observer
12-05-2008, 10:37 AM
I was surprised this summer not to have seen any areas closed off especially around Paradise.

During the summer Paradise is closed off to mountain biking. Anything above Super Bravo is closed to mountain biking. Stop in the the shop and we can give you our mountain biking trail map.

Just about all of the mountain bikers that come to the Bush are downhillers meaning they have bikes built for going downhill with very little capability, gearwise, to bike uphill.

madhavok
12-05-2008, 12:01 PM
IMO this should not even be an issue. Trees die off for a variety of reasons, most of which are environmental & weather related (can’t blame Sugarbush for that!) Yes human interaction also plays a role but realistically once the gladed trails were cut a path of forest deterioration was started. This won’t be reversed unless you want to permanently close the trails and invest in plantings (which is neither fun for guests nor cheap!).

Lastly what is there to worry about? Sugarbush has already invested in a new gladed trail system, (Eden, deeper sleeper, egans, & lews line) which will ensure the availabity of Sugarbush glade skiing through its next fifty years.

The one point I will give you is that it’s sad the GMVS has taken over Brambles, but its obvious they have more than their foot in the door, and I’m sure it won’t take them long to expand their trail ownership.

HowieT2
12-05-2008, 12:04 PM
I was surprised this summer not to have seen any areas closed off especially around Paradise.

During the summer Paradise is closed off to mountain biking. Anything above Super Bravo is closed to mountain biking. Stop in the the shop and we can give you our mountain biking trail map.

Just about all of the mountain bikers that come to the Bush are downhillers meaning they have bikes built for going downhill with very little capability, gearwise, to bike uphill.

I was aware of that but hiking up there I expected to see areas roped off.

summitchallenger
12-05-2008, 12:10 PM
The one point I will give you is that it’s sad the GMVS has taken over Brambles, but its obvious they have more than their foot in the door, and I’m sure it won’t take them long to expand their trail ownership.

I just hate it when they decide they want to train on both Inverness and Elbow, so you can't use either one...and get even more steamed when I ride up GMX to see Elbow roped off and nobody using it for said training. They do that at Burke as well every once in a while.

kcyanks1
12-05-2008, 12:12 PM
IMO this should not even be an issue. Trees die off for a variety of reasons, most of which are environmental & weather related (can’t blame Sugarbush for that!) Yes human interaction also plays a role but realistically once the gladed trails were cut a path of forest deterioration was started. This won’t be reversed unless you want to permanently close the trails and invest in plantings (which is neither fun for guests nor cheap!).

Lastly what is there to worry about? Sugarbush has already invested in a new gladed trail system, (Eden, deeper sleeper, egans, & lews line) which will ensure the availabity of Sugarbush glade skiing through its next fifty years.

The one point I will give you is that it’s sad the GMVS has taken over Brambles, but its obvious they have more than their foot in the door, and I’m sure it won’t take them long to expand their trail ownership.

So the long-term solution is to continually move to new gladed areas after the older ones are destroyed?

Strat
12-05-2008, 12:34 PM
As most of you know I think, the Bush has done this sort of thing before, though I'm not exactly sure for what reasons... the original Birdland was a trail cut through what is now Egan's Woods, which was closed in the early 70's and allowed to regrow... check out SugarbushHistory.com for more...

ski_resort_observer
12-05-2008, 12:41 PM
I was surprised this summer not to have seen any areas closed off especially around Paradise.

During the summer Paradise is closed off to mountain biking. Anything above Super Bravo is closed to mountain biking. Stop in the the shop and we can give you our mountain biking trail map.

Just about all of the mountain bikers that come to the Bush are downhillers meaning they have bikes built for going downhill with very little capability, gearwise, to bike uphill.

I was aware of that but hiking up there I expected to see areas roped off.

Despite the summits of the Bush being part of the Long Trail who usually don't hike much off the trail there are not enough hikers where that is a problem. Hiking is actually encouraged by the Bush and the GMNF. I better say I'm talking about the summer, not the winter. :lol: Mt Mansfield or Mt Manadnock(sic)(the most hiked mountain in the northeast) is a totally diferent story.

summitchallenger
12-05-2008, 01:07 PM
As most of you know I think, the Bush has done this sort of thing before, though I'm not exactly sure for what reasons... the original Birdland was a trail cut through what is now Egan's Woods, which was closed in the early 70's and allowed to regrow... check out SugarbushHistory.com for more...

Well, if I am looking at these maps correctly, (http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/sugarbush_017.htm) then it would appear that Birdland is now Stein's. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing....

Dawn Patrol
12-05-2008, 03:44 PM
As most of you know I think, the Bush has done this sort of thing before, though I'm not exactly sure for what reasons... the original Birdland was a trail cut through what is now Egan's Woods, which was closed in the early 70's and allowed to regrow... check out SugarbushHistory.com for more...

Well, if I am looking at these maps correctly, (http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/sugarbush_017.htm) then it would appear that Birdland is now Stein's. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing....

That's what I see.
Glade is now Egan's.
Birdland is now Stein's.

Tin Woodsman
12-05-2008, 05:09 PM
As most of you know I think, the Bush has done this sort of thing before, though I'm not exactly sure for what reasons... the original Birdland was a trail cut through what is now Egan's Woods, which was closed in the early 70's and allowed to regrow... check out SugarbushHistory.com for more...

Well, if I am looking at these maps correctly, (http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/sugarbush_017.htm) then it would appear that Birdland is now Stein's. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing....

You're not looking at them correctly.

The old Birdland ran from the top of Stein's over to where Egan's Woods, Glade and Lower Birdland meet. Must have had one heck of a double fall line.

Tin Woodsman
12-05-2008, 05:19 PM
IMO this should not even be an issue. Trees die off for a variety of reasons, most of which are environmental & weather related (can’t blame Sugarbush for that!) Yes human interaction also plays a role but realistically once the gladed trails were cut a path of forest deterioration was started. This won’t be reversed unless you want to permanently close the trails and invest in plantings (which is neither fun for guests nor cheap!).

Lastly what is there to worry about? Sugarbush has already invested in a new gladed trail system, (Eden, deeper sleeper, egans, & lews line) which will ensure the availabity of Sugarbush glade skiing through its next fifty years.

The one point I will give you is that it’s sad the GMVS has taken over Brambles, but its obvious they have more than their foot in the door, and I’m sure it won’t take them long to expand their trail ownership.

So the long-term solution is to continually move to new gladed areas after the older ones are destroyed?

Exactly. That's just an awful solution - ignoring the problem. Ues, trees die off for a variety of reasons, but the forest on mountains with ski areas is in a lot worse shape than the forest on mountains w/o them. I can't believe I didn't mention this in the first post, but look at the less that is Paradise Woods. It is a victim of over-cutting pure and simple and is in desperate need of proper forestry mgmt.

What is to worry about? If you're content to see the classic gladed trails become just open boulevards like most trails in the East, be my guest. I'm certainly not, and I think those trails go a long way towards what makes SB's terrain special and different. Are you content to see snowmaking runs get wider and wider?

As MRG has shown, you don't need to permanently close off entire trails, you need only work to create regen zones where tree islands can flourish. You will notice on Lower Moonshine, Lower Domino, Glade, Paradise and Sleeper that the mature trees are surrounded by grass and not saplings. Those trees will die off in the next 10-20 years and will have nothing to replace them. If action is taken now, there will be replacements already at a reasonable stage of maturity to backfill when they die.

There's a reason why the Castlerock terrain is considered sacred. It's not just b/c of their steepness, it's their width and character. Narrow trails also hold snow much better b/c the wind can't get in them and the sunlight is blocked by the trees. This is one of the reason swhy CR often has the best snow on the mountain. All things being equal, Spillsville will have better snow surfaces than Ripcord due to this phenomenon. Your being content to simply allow things to continue on as they are betrays an alarming level of ignorance as to how mountain forests work, and the role they play in impacting the skiing experience in the East.

Strat
12-05-2008, 05:24 PM
As most of you know I think, the Bush has done this sort of thing before, though I'm not exactly sure for what reasons... the original Birdland was a trail cut through what is now Egan's Woods, which was closed in the early 70's and allowed to regrow... check out SugarbushHistory.com for more...

Well, if I am looking at these maps correctly, (http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/sugarbush_017.htm) then it would appear that Birdland is now Stein's. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing....

You're not looking at them correctly.

The old Birdland ran from the top of Stein's over to where Egan's Woods, Glade and Lower Birdland meet. Must have had one heck of a double fall line.
Correct... for whatever reason the links to the pertinent maps are screwed up... I have big copies on my old site...

http://geocities.com/sugarbushhistory/images/oldmap5.jpg

http://geocities.com/sugarbushhistory/images/oldmap6.jpg

villager
12-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Treeskier, I'll help you with the Paradise regen zone tree transplantation project next summer if you can figure out how to get permission.

freeheel_skier
12-06-2008, 10:49 AM
I just hate it when they decide they want to train on both Inverness and Elbow, so you can't use either one...and get even more steamed when I ride up GMX to see Elbow roped off and nobody using it for said training. They do that at Burke as well every once in a while.


I hear you on the elbow issue :!:

vonski
12-06-2008, 12:37 PM
I think I saw something about them wanting to get the snow made on Inverness earlier this year. If I am not mistaken I think that they did not have Inverness open right away last year causing GMVS to train on Elbow. So, lets hope that they move the guns to Inverness before the 19th and maybe there won't be the training issues on Elbow. I certainly think that would be prudent.

mattlucas
12-06-2008, 03:59 PM
Lastly what is there to worry about? Sugarbush has already invested in a new gladed trail system, (Eden, deeper sleeper, egans, & lews line) which will ensure the availabity of Sugarbush glade skiing through its next fifty years.

Also want to chime in that this is exactly the wrong idea. Frankly, skiers seem to be much better now. Many more people are hitting the woods and those metal edges are destroying trees young and old. I'm all for exploring, but I want people in 50 years to have the same thrill. Sure, sometimes you can get in a place that can be too tight, but over the last five years i would say the unofficial trail map has grown considerably due to use and edges.

I also get jealous when i think about people who had the chance to ski trails as they were originally cut 40 years ago. Glades looked freakin awesome. I would love to see planting and orange bands there...even if we couldn't ski it the whole thing would hold snow better. Paradise used to ski far more like MRG version, what we have now is a bit more weak. And as far as trails skiing the way they originally intended, i'm sure downspout was a blast in the gondola days due to far less skier traffic.

That's off topic, but let's get planting and then maybe we can open up some more legit areas as well....and maybe a few runs off the backside to lincoln while we're at it.

Hawk
12-08-2008, 07:26 AM
Treeskier, I'll help you with the Paradise regen zone tree transplantation project next summer if you can figure out how to get permission.

Tree, as always I am in. I am sure you know the right people to talk to to get it done.

Hawk
12-08-2008, 07:42 AM
[quote=madhavok]
Lastly what is there to worry about? Sugarbush has already invested in a new gladed trail system, (Eden, deeper sleeper, egans, & lews line) which will ensure the availabity of Sugarbush glade skiing through its next fifty years.

Also want to chime in that this is exactly the wrong idea. Frankly, skiers seem to be much better now. Many more people are hitting the woods and those metal edges are destroying trees young and old. I'm all for exploring, but I want people in 50 years to have the same thrill. Sure, sometimes you can get in a place that can be too tight, but over the last five years i would say the unofficial trail map has grown considerably due to use and edges.
quote]

I have to dissagree with this statement. If anything there has been considerable growth in large areas in the side country and blowdowns and remnants from prior ice storms have come down. Last winter we were having that conversation waiting for the bus at slide brook. I will say that some of the main traveled routes have seen maintenence but there are vast areas that are now much more "swacky" to coin a phrase. I do not think the unofficial trail map has grown, just your understanding of the unoficial trail map has grown. :wink:

John Walden
12-08-2008, 10:28 AM
I remember skiing with my two kids on Glades when there were trees. My youngest is now 22 years old. Valley House Traverse was 6 feet wide. What an adventure back 25 years ago when we would travel to the top in the old gondolas. No Ripcord, no Heaven's Gate. Boy, I must be getting old to remember these things.

mattlucas
12-08-2008, 05:48 PM
I have to dissagree with this statement. If anything there has been considerable growth in large areas in the side country and blowdowns and remnants from prior ice storms have come down. Last winter we were having that conversation waiting for the bus at slide brook. I will say that some of the main traveled routes have seen maintenence but there are vast areas that are now much more "swacky" to coin a phrase. I do not think the unofficial trail map has grown, just your understanding of the unoficial trail map has grown. :wink:

Again, my personal experience FWIW. I run into many more people in the woods than i used to and you can see edge marks on the bark of trees. I believe those trees, if young, get knocked over and die over a winter or two. That isn't malicious on anyone's part, but people should be told to avoid some areas for awhile.

I'm really not talking about hiking the ridge to ellen for an hour and bombing at will, but rather anything that gets skied consistently (read=accessed by heavens gate). I'm adventurous, but approximately as talented as I was 15 years ago...and those lines are wide(r) and easy(r) now.

Also, I was living in the valley for storm of the century, and have a lot of photos of the damage but my motivation in pointing this out really "stems" from seeing old pictures of how awesome the glades were pre-tree disease and bravo/hg lifts with the lack of maintenance that has occurred to keep the forests healthier over the past 40 years. No blame either, i just think people were far less aware of the trees disappearing even five years ago.

Tin Woodsman
12-08-2008, 08:53 PM
Looks like you are talking about different areas - upper mountain softwoods vs. lower mtn hardwoods. You may both be right.

summitchallenger
12-10-2008, 08:28 AM
Here's what skiing at Sugarbush/Glen Ellen used to look like back in the 1960's, compliments of VT Life (my scans from a few years back):

Lincoln Peak--likely Jester:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/760/medium/scan00152.jpg

Devil's Elbow at Glen Ellen:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/760/medium/scan00142.jpg

Rim Run (on the bottom):

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/760/medium/scan00111.jpg

Things have really changed.

Strat
12-10-2008, 08:58 AM
Those are some nice old photos... what's the date on the Vermont Life?

summitchallenger
12-10-2008, 09:11 AM
Those are some nice old photos... what's the date on the Vermont Life?

The mag is dated Winter 1965. So those pics are likely from the 1964-1965 ski season.

Tin Woodsman
12-10-2008, 09:40 AM
I don't think that 2nd picture is Elbow. Looks more like the top of Rim Run.

summitchallenger
12-10-2008, 09:45 AM
I don't think that 2nd picture is Elbow. Looks more like the top of Rim Run.

That's what Vermont Life says it is. The big picture with the woman is the former Elbow...years before it was widened and straightened.

freeheel_skier
12-10-2008, 10:11 AM
Sweet vintage pics! I would have loved to ski those trails back then.....and who needs gortex, soft shells and primaloft anyway? Wool is back in baby :P

summitchallenger
12-10-2008, 10:21 AM
I don't think that 2nd picture is Elbow. Looks more like the top of Rim Run.

Ohhh, I see what you are saying. That looks like she is standing right at the very top...with FIS starting just on the other side of that little knoll of trees. The ridgeline is extending to MRG in the background. That is interesting. Certainly could be a mistake on their part...I will have to look at the mag picture again when I get home.

Tin Woodsman
12-10-2008, 10:22 AM
I don't think that 2nd picture is Elbow. Looks more like the top of Rim Run.

That's what Vermont Life says it is. The big picture with the woman is the former Elbow...years before it was widened and straightened.

Then Vermont Life is wrong. Look at the background - that's the ridgeline stretching towards MRG. Also, look at her shadow. If she was skiing Elbow near the top, her shadow would be much more to the left side of her. The fact that it's straight in front of her implies thaty she's skiing directly north, like on the top of Rim Run.

othripper
12-10-2008, 12:56 PM
Hmm....

I taught at Glen Ellen for a few winters in the 70's. What SB did to the SB and GE in the 80's remains a huge crime in my opinion. Anyone else remember the three huge rolls that used to be on Downspout?

Devil's Elbow was nothing like the Elbow of today. It was narrow and gnarly. I think this photo is from lower down on the trail. It really could be Elbow.

Mike

vonski
12-10-2008, 08:05 PM
I just showed the picture to my 10 year old and he immediately said it was Rim Run. So it must be!!! :lol:

mikec13
12-10-2008, 09:37 PM
Since I was born in the 63 i have no memory or knowledge of ski areas in this era...one of the things I notice from these pics is it appears the trails look perfectly groomed...was this just the luck of the day they took the pictures or were there some type of groomers used?...if they used groomers back then what was the general plan?...or was the style of skiing back than a style which didn't produce bumps?

BushMogulMaster
12-10-2008, 10:09 PM
Hmm....

I taught at Glen Ellen for a few winters in the 70's. What SB did to the SB and GE in the 80's remains a huge crime in my opinion. Anyone else remember the three huge rolls that used to be on Downspout?

Devil's Elbow was nothing like the Elbow of today. It was narrow and gnarly. I think this photo is from lower down on the trail. It really could be Elbow.

Mike

Almost has to be Rim Run. Note, the location of the peak in the background.

BushMogulMaster
12-10-2008, 10:14 PM
Here's some more examples of the old Glen Ellen:

http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/images/oldellen.jpg

http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/images/oldellen1.jpg


I wish they'd have left it alone... such a shame to see trails with such character widened and stripped of their unique, interesting, and enjoyable qualities.

freeheel_skier
12-10-2008, 10:21 PM
Awesome Pics! What is the year?

Lostone
12-11-2008, 07:11 AM
why are there no bumps?


I think it is because skiers make bumps, and there were less skiers, so trails that weren't that steep wouldn't bump up.


Note: This may be a case of Guy Answer Syndrome. :roll: :lol:

Hardbooter
12-11-2008, 12:11 PM
It's funny how we always end up coming back to a few topics on this board... the (lack of) webcam, the above Inverness expansion, and not enough snowmaking...
There's only so much to talk about. After all, it's just a ski area. It's not Jackson Hole and it's not in the swiss alps. It's an eastern ski area.

These are more or less the same topics that come up over beers at our ski house. With maybe a little more emphasis at the house on some of the lesser known parts of Sugarbush than we can cover in a public forum. There's no one keeping us on-topic at the ski house though. Hey, now there's an idea. Hey moderators, are you guys free Friday night at about 10:30? Can we pay you for your time with Harpoon IPA? (on tap of course.)

BTW, I think they should groom castlerock more... um... and add snowmaking on lift line. And damn, those trials are narrow. Couldn't we make them wider and flatter?

Hey, when will I be able to take my snowboard over to mad river?

Tin Woodsman
12-11-2008, 12:13 PM
Ha hah.

Let's try to keep this one on-topic. While I'm biased, I think the ongoing, and perhaps unwitting, destruction of the mountain forest (and along with it much of SB's character) is an important topic for discussion.

That said, I'm always down for free Harpoons.

ski_resort_observer
12-11-2008, 03:08 PM
I think that this topic is important so here is a suggestion on getting more info. We have a regional office/education center of the GMNF in Rochester right on Rt 100. If you stop in you can some awesome maps and even discuss with the several people that might be there on the wildlife, biological issues regarding the damage down by tree skiing.

I know many do not drive this way and your on the road when it's not likely they are open but if you are driving by during the week you should stop in. You can also go online and email questions or even call them directly. You might even get some cool maps/studies done about this issue. I would think the people charged with overseeing the balance of the NSF's mission of "multiple use" for decades, would be a valuable resource. Check it out.

Hawk
12-11-2008, 03:13 PM
It's funny how we always end up coming back to a few topics on this board... the (lack of) webcam, the above Inverness expansion, and not enough snowmaking...
There's only so much to talk about. After all, it's just a ski area. It's not Jackson Hole and it's not in the swiss alps. It's an eastern ski area.

These are more or less the same topics that come up over beers at our ski house. With maybe a little more emphasis at the house on some of the lesser known parts of Sugarbush than we can cover in a public forum. There's no one keeping us on-topic at the ski house though. Hey, now there's an idea. Hey moderators, are you guys free Friday night at about 10:30? Can we pay you for your time with Harpoon IPA? (on tap of course.)
BTW, I think they should groom castlerock more... um... and add snowmaking on lift line. And damn, those trials are narrow. Couldn't we make them wider and flatter?

Hey, when will I be able to take my snowboard over to mad river?

Woo Hoo! Free beers at Club Xstaski.......