Heaven's Gate and Snowmaking

[MntMan4Bush]

Really?? Nothing posted yet about this?? Really?

Don't get me wrong. I had a great opening day with snow flying and smiles everywhere. It was cold but you couldn't have asked for a better backdrop for an opening day except maybe ......

more snow guns running elsewhere on the mountain to prep for this weekend and maybe another trail open like Spring Fling or really anything. Was it not cold enough to have another run ready during the last week? I say this because Sunday was a disappointment. Given what happened with Heaven's Gate shutting down and limiting our skiing to a long crowded run out it would have been prudent. Now there are some that would say that's just good old Monday Morning Quarterbacking, but if you asked me last week I would have said another run needed to be open. If nothing else the ski market is a competitive industry. KillingMeATon had 14 open. Now we stuck it to them staying open much longer then them last year. Would have been nice to one up them again to start off the season. If for no other reason then to be able to ski on Sunday. With HG down I couldn't force myself to do Deathsprout to whatever combination of run outs we came down on no matter how much I wanted to ski.

I love that this is a pretty positive community. (Sorry to bring us all down here), but come on. Was I the only one disappointed. I know no one could have predicted the lift being down unless it was due to lack of maintenance during the off season, but I'm doubting that was it. Instead though what could have been anticipated was a need for more lower mountain capacity given the restricted space of Downspout. I had a good time on Jester Saturday as the snow was great. (Thank you Mother Nature), but I would have loved another option to get down.

[summitchallenger]

Agreed...but I think it was a snowmaking capacity and weather issue. Pretty good considering that they had less than a week to make as much snow as they did. I was surprised, as was Lostone, that on Sunday they had not lit up Spring Fling or Traverse.

[Tin Woodsman]

Agreed...but I think it was a snowmaking capacity and weather issue. Pretty good considering that they had less than a week to make as much snow as they did. I was surprised, as was Lostone, that on Sunday they had not lit up Spring Fling or Traverse.
Couldn't agree more. I mentioned it elsewhere, but this is where the pack of real firepower is painfully noticeable. The fact that they had a full week of below freezing temps, including long stretches of optimal snowmaking weather (cold and dry), yet were only able to open 1.5 ways down the mountain is weak sauce. There's no two ways around that.

[gone.skiing]

It seems that capacity is limited to one trail at a time at LP. That seems a little on the low side given all the advances in snow making technology. Weather was really favorable last 10 days (in terms of temperature anyway), so I can't see that being an issue.

[vonski]

I have to agree. I came up Saturday morning with my son and skied the afternoon. Sunday got out early and caught Organgrinder right off the bat. It was nice. Went to the base to pick up some friends, caught one more heaven's gate run down Jester and then the lift died. Made a few laps on Bravo and called it a day at 1:15 as I was planning on staying until 2 only. I was hoping that this Tuesday's storm was going to wallop the mountain. However, looks to be tracking west and warmth will over take and not provide the cold needed. ( lets hope not) Looking at the trail report looks like they are still building base on Grinder and the traverse. Have not moved to Snowball or Springfling yet. So, I do not expect much more terrain for Turkey day. So, rethinking my plans now for the holiday. The issue with the snowmaking is the capacity. It is my understanding that the mountain gave up the rental compressors a few years ago reducing the capacity. It is a wonder that they can only be making snow on one or two trails at a time. So, we need more capacity or some fan guns. There is too much natural snow out there right now that is going to be wasted since they cannot get the man made done fast enough.

[Lostone]

I was surprised, as was Lostone, that on Sunday they had not lit up Spring Fling or Traverse.

They had guns going on the traverse, on Sunday.

My statement was that I was surprised they didn't take advantage of the cold temps at the bottom to hit Spring Fling or (more likely) Lower Snowball, returning to the traverse and Snowball, as temps rose at the bottom, but (hopefully) were cooler on the upper trails.

It wouldn't have gotten the trails open last weekend, but it seemed a good way to use the colder temps while they were around.

[vonski]

[quote]
My statement was that I was surprised they didn't take advantage of the cold temps at the bottom to hit Spring Fling or (more likely) Lower Snowball, returning to the traverse and Snowball, as temps rose at the bottom, but (hopefully) were cooler on the upper trails.

It wouldn't have gotten the trails open last weekend, but it seemed a good way to use the colder temps while they were around.

I was wondering that myself. They seem to be taking that approach at North with Elbow and Cruiser and now Lower Rim Run and Looking Good and not the top yet. But again I think it is capacity. They could not have done Organgrinder if they were doing snowball and spring fling. The traverse is not that long so they can do that and Grinder at the same time. I doubt that they could have done spring fling and grinder at the same time. But what do I know!

[Hawk]

I had snow makers in my ski house for several years and learned a lot about what it takes to make snow. So before BMM pipes in I will give you what I have.

It's simple really. You have compressors that pump air and pumps that pump water. The amount of trails you can make snow on is a product of how much of both you can do at the same time. Also, as it get colder you need less air to make snow. SB has water restrictions and can only use a certain amount of water. At this time of year with the amount of water flow at the Mad River, I don't think that is the problem. It's air pressure. SB does not have enough capacity to blow more than one top to bottom run at a time. This was evident in past years when they brought in extra compressors to supplement the existing system. But with with press to be more environmentally friendly, they have given up that procedure. I am sure it had a large cost impact also. So we have the system that we have.

Don't you think they would blow all kinds of trails if they could? They are paying for the snowmakers to be there.

Just my 2 cents.....

[win]

It is about capacity and also what we see coming in the days ahead. Had we come off of Organgrinder ,we could have gone to another trail, but with the weather that arrived today and the loss of snow making temperatures, we would not have completed a trail, and we likely would have wasted money and energy moving our attention to another slope. Opening wide trails like Snowball and Spring Fling top to bottom - which has to happen - takes a few days of concentrated snowmaking in good temperatures. What we have now laid down on Jester, Downspout and Upper Organgrinder is a quality product, and we hopefully won't have to spend a lot more time on those trails this winter. I would chanllenge anyone to say that the product made by are snowmaking team was not the highest quality. Coffee run allowed us to get top to bottom with greater certainty which we wanted for opening day. The temperature forecast will determine where we go next. It we have the bottom temperatures, we do want to open Snowball and Spring Fling as soon as possible. If not, we will make elsewhere until we do.

As I have said in past posts we are not about spreading thin cover around the mountain this time of year for the cosmetics of opening terrain. We are going to continue our policy of making a quality product and preparing to maintain that quality for the entire season.

I think most people know this, but LP and ME are separate system. One can not use the compressors at ME for LP and visa versa. Our decision to make snow earlier than plan at ME was based on the temperatures that we had. The quality of the product on Elbow, Cruiser and Rim Run is really good as well, and we also want to cover Inverness by opening day if at all possible so that GMVS can train there earlier than in past years. There is a tremendous amount of acreage there, so it takes a lot of snowmaking capacity to cover this trail well.

There were also comments about foot packing on Spillsville. Given the very light snow that fell last week, one turn through it and you hit bottom. Foot packing is the best thing one can do to help set up a base and to get these natural trails open as early as safety allows.

Heaven's Gate was down for a little over two hours and reopened. The problem turned out to be a loose electical wire around the upper bull wheel. It was a challenge to find the exact location and our team had to go tower to tower to discover where the issue was. At first they thought it was just a battery that needed replacing but that was not the case and that is why it took a while to isolate the issue.

[vonski]

thanks for the response Win. The product was certainly excellent. I heard from some folks that Jay Peak's product was icy. I was checking out there site and watched a video and all I could hear was scratch scratch scratch from the skis on the icy hard pack snow. I did not hear scratch at all Sat. afternoon or Sunday at the Bush!! A few more portable fan guns would be nice though as they could be located at them nasty water bars that keep some of the natural terrain from opening sooner. Keep us flatlanders upto date today as to when and if the liquid stuff starts falling. Also if the top temps stay cool lets get Ripcord open. Forget Snowball.

[shadyjay]

Seconded on the quality product, for Upper Jester, Lower Downspout, and Coffee Run rode like a dream... mid winter-ish. Excellent job all around. Downspout, well, there's nothing you can do about that, except make the most of it.

My guess is that resorts like Kmart, Okemo, etc will be slashing their trail counts following this storm because their open trails just didn't have the coverage/depth, in favor of more thin trails.

And... Jay Peak was icy? Wow - that's never happened :wink:

[gone.skiing]

I thought downspout was in great condition last weekend. Nice bump line on the left, soft snow piles on the right side, nice and firm in the middle for racer types to enjoy. It won't get better as the season goes on.

[MntMan4Bush]

Alright I don't want to take away from the job the team did to get the mountain ready. I know everyone worked very hard and I had a smile on my face Saturday that even a nude picture of Rosie O'Donnell could tear off my face.

However let's look at it this way. The snow that we had was great quality as a result of A) Hard work by the team making snow and 2) It was puking snow for a long period of time. Would the trails have been as good as they were had Mother Nature not also assisted? It's possible, but we got a little help and let's not overlook that.

Also it's not just about getting from top to bottom with great coverage that makes for a good day of skiing. From HG down was basically a long run out. There was no challenge in it and nothing to do but point them down hill and try and avoid everyone making huge arcing turns trying to get something from what we had. It's not enough just to be able to get down the mountain, but you actually need quality terrain to ski. On Saturday I had fun on Jester. It's not a trail I ski often as I'd prefer Rips to Spills, but I enjoyed having something to do and quality terrain. I never made a run to the bottom of Super B more then once that day (at the end), but stayed on HG because the run out was a waste of time. When HG went down on Sunday it was evident that quality terrain (not snow) was lacking.

The weekend is in the past and therefor in the books so nothing that can be done about it. I'm just voicing my opinion and slight disappointment. Regardless I guess it's just good to be skiing again instead of slicing Nike True Spins into the woods. Its good to have skiing to complain about again. :)

[summitchallenger]

Also it's not just about getting from top to bottom with great coverage that makes for a good day of skiing. From HG down was basically a long run out. There was no challenge in it and nothing to do but point them down hill and try and avoid everyone making huge arcing turns trying to get something from what we had. It's not enough just to be able to get down the mountain, but you actually need quality terrain to ski. On Saturday I had fun on Jester. It's not a trail I ski often as I'd prefer Rips to Spills, but I enjoyed having something to do and quality terrain. I never made a run to the bottom of Super B more then once that day (at the end), but stayed on HG because the run out was a waste of time. When HG went down on Sunday it was evident that quality terrain (not snow) was lacking.

The weekend is in the past and therefor in the books so nothing that can be done about it. I'm just voicing my opinion and slight disappointment. Regardless I guess it's just good to be skiing again instead of slicing Nike True Spins into the woods. Its good to have skiing to complain about again. :)

Can you propose another way to get from Heaven's Gate to the bottom, other than the route they set up? There is no choice really. Downloading is not a feasible option.

I understand why we are LP, but this is just more reason why Mt Ellen makes more sense for preseason skiing....

[MntMan4Bush]

I'm not saying the choice from HG down was a bad one or that many other options were available. What I was saying is that more terrain should have been open. My thought is that off of Super B there should have been another option. Maybe Spring Fling or heck I'd even have taken Birdland to Lower Jester or Lower Organgrinder. Or Domino Chute to Lower Organgrinder. This would have created less traffic on Deathsprout and shifted the volume somewhat to the lower mountain. Not that volume was a huge issue, but at least it would have given options. This was especially noticeable when HG went down.

[Tin Woodsman]

I had snow makers in my ski house for several years and learned a lot about what it takes to make snow. So before BMM pipes in I will give you what I have.

It's simple really. You have compressors that pump air and pumps that pump water. The amount of trails you can make snow on is a product of how much of both you can do at the same time. Also, as it get colder you need less air to make snow. SB has water restrictions and can only use a certain amount of water. At this time of year with the amount of water flow at the Mad River, I don't think that is the problem. It's air pressure. SB does not have enough capacity to blow more than one top to bottom run at a time. This was evident in past years when they brought in extra compressors to supplement the existing system. But with with press to be more environmentally friendly, they have given up that procedure. I am sure it had a large cost impact also. So we have the system that we have.

Don't you think they would blow all kinds of trails if they could? They are paying for the snowmakers to be there.

Just my 2 cents.....

This is helpful for me. This brings up two questions. First, did SV ever go through with the expansion of the snowmaking pond to the full 62 million gallons that had been permitted? I know that ASC had only dug it out half way or something to save money. If so, then what is the nature of the water restrictions? Can't reduce water levels on the Mad River more than X amount?

Second, and more to the point, don't the ongoing restrictions on compressor capacity speak to a posible opportunity for using fan guns on wider, heavy traffic trails on the lower mtn like Snowball, Spring Fling, Lower Organgrinder, Hot Shot/Waterfall and Pushover? You'll use a lot more water, but no need for big, expensive base area compressors. They are also more expensive to maintain, but as you say, they are paying for the snowmakers to be there. Obviously it's not my money, and those puppies run from $10K up to $40K a pop. But man alive, the lack of firepower really shows up in the early season and the first day or two after the frequent that/freeze cycles we experience.

I wonder what the issue is that makes those guns the right choice for places like Mt. Snow and not SB. The feedback I've read on the product quality and quantity at Mt. Snow is overwhelmingly positive. It's not like SB isn't familiar with them - they've got one at the base of ME but Win has stated on this forum that they aren't (excuse the pun( fans of that technology. Purely from my outsiders perspective, in addition to the known limitations on compressors as well as the suitability of certain critical areas of terrain, I don't understand the hesitation.

[vonski]

there is also a protable fan gun sitting at the base by the magic carpet. I saw it Sunday.

[ski_it]

Funny that you bring up fan guns because I noticed that there was one sitting at the base of LP this weekend, next to the rail/box features. not sure if it is new or not, but I definitely hadn't seen it before.

In general, I agree that it would be really nice if there were more snowmaking firepower-- this is something I've complained about in the past, and it is especially noticeable early season and after freeze/thaw cycles. At some point we need to come to a realization that the snowmaking capacity at Sugarbush is what it is, and they are probably maximizing the use of what they have. There's no question that Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity could be increased with significant investment, and it's up to SV to make business decisions about whether that makes sense. In terms of putting what they had to use ahead of opening day, I was very pleased. I thought the manmade snow on the hill this weekend was extremely high quality. Natural snow made a huge difference, but downspout was pretty much as good as it gets, and Jester and Grinder were awesome. I definitely would have loved for there to have been more terrain open, but I just don't think that would have been possible without more capacity than is available today.

My only complaint was not opening Lower Ripcord with all that powder sitting on it-- I know, I know, safety first! and the snow was very low density blah blah, but I would have loved to have hit that and dealt with the (core shot) consequences later.

if mtnman4bush calls me a hippie, it's ok-- don't think it's true these days, but he wouldn't be the first to call me one.

can't wait to get back out this weekend!

[MntMan4Bush]

Funny thing is I don't know I ever said being a hippie was a bad thing. :D

[Lostone]

If, while you were heading down the first part of Downspout, you looked to the right, you'd have seen that the first part of Lower Jester was blown clear. It is hard to see what looks like great snow, and think about the few spots that have nothing/very little. There was a post a while back talking about Mother Nature being responsible for the coverage on Jester. That natural coverage wouldn't have lasted a couple hours of traffic.

Most of the bottom is that way. It would be a great first 3 runs, then the ground would grow quickly.

Not saying it didn't help, and that more would be welcomed, but it was only the manufactured base that kept us going.

Now, as to what has been falling today, it has been a heavy base snow that can be really helpful! :D

[Tin Woodsman]

In general, I agree that it would be really nice if there were more snowmaking firepower-- this is something I've complained about in the past, and it is especially noticeable early season and after freeze/thaw cycles. At some point we need to come to a realization that the snowmaking capacity at Sugarbush is what it is, and they are probably maximizing the use of what they have. There's no question that Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity could be increased with significant investment, and it's up to SV to make business decisions about whether that makes sense.

I guess this is the crux of my point. If the system is limited due to lack of compressor capacity, then the fan guns change that equation b/c they don't require compressed air piped up from the base - just a lot of water and an extension cord. That doesn't address the issue of up front capital, or stranded costs of the air pipes, or incremental ongoing costs of maintenance. I don't have those figures and I'm sure Win does, but the logic is fairly compelling on certain areas of terrain with what we do know.


My only complaint was not opening Lower Ripcord with all that powder sitting on it-- I know, I know, safety first! and the snow was very low density blah blah, but I would have loved to have hit that and dealt with the (core shot) consequences later.

How would one get to Lower Ripcord if neither Spillsville, Ripcord nor Paradise were open?

[summitchallenger]

IIRC in either 2002 or 2003 Win and Company did dredge the LP Pond so that it was deep enough....

[win]

A lot of questions to answer, so I will take a crack at a couple of them quickly. ASC never did the pond to the permitted level. It holds 25 million gallons which is approximately 20%-25% of what we pump in a normal season. It gets refilled from the Mad River as long as the river is above the Feburary mean level. There are no restrictions in refilling as long as the river in that high. In the future we do want to build some additional reservoirs for insurance and have a couple of locations in mind. Believe it or not because of various environment standards building new is most likely more cost efficient than expanding the existing pond. Either is a big expense.

The fan gun you see is a demo for the year. Fans guns can make sense in certain situations and they do have the flexibility of being able to be turned on one gun at a time. They probably work well on wider trails and also when mounted on a pole. They are very difficult to move around. They also need colder temperatures to produce the quality snow that we would want here. They run around $25-$30K per fan before installation. That said we are experimenting with this one this winter to see if they might make sense in some place. They would likely only be useful on trails like lower Spring Fling, Easy Rider and the beginner kids areas. You wouldn't see us putting them on the higher narrower trails. Without going into more details there are pluses and minuses and fan guns are not the best for all mountains. We did add a large number of energy efficient guns two years ago and are pleased with them. Yes, we could lease more diesel comporesors short-term for a cost of around $250,000 plus per month and in cold temperature get more snow making power. Some would like to have 100% of the mountain open day one, but this is just not cost effective. Like any business we have to manage our costs intelligently while attempting to deliver a good product and be economically viable for the long run. After labor, snowmaking is our largest expense.

[ski_it]

How would one get to Lower Ripcord if neither Spillsville, Ripcord nor Paradise were open?

good point. open Spillsville too. all skis are rock skis.

last year ropes were dropped on Spills from Grinder on 11/24. the top of Ripcord was roped, but lower ripcord and lower paradise were open with access from Spillsville. It was fantastic, and there was less snow depth and more schwack then than there was this past weekend (albeit with higher density snow).

In all seriousness, I'm not upset that they didn't drop the ropes-- it's Patrol's call to make based on their assessment of the conditions. I'm just saying it would have been fun.

[Tin Woodsman]

Win -

Thanks once again for chiming in and helping to set the record straight.


A lot of questions to answer, so I will take a crack at a couple of them quickly. ASC never did the pond to the permitted level. It holds 25 million gallons which is approximately 20%-25% of what we pump in a normal season. It gets refilled from the Mad River as long as the river is above the Feburary mean level. There are no restrictions in refilling as long as the river in that high. In the future we do want to build some additional reservoirs for insurance and have a couple of locations in mind. Believe it or not because of various environment standards building new is most likely more cost efficient than expanding the existing pond. Either is a big expense.

This is great. Would the extra water be dedicated solely to LP, or to both LP and ME? I had understood via BMM here that ME had the more severe water limitations.


The fan gun you see is a demo for the year. Fans guns can make sense in certain situations and they do have the flexibility of being able to be turned on one gun at a time. They probably work well on wider trails and also when mounted on a pole. They are very difficult to move around. They also need colder temperatures to produce the quality snow that we would want here. They run around $25-$30K per fan before installation. That said we are experimenting with this one this winter to see if they might make sense in some place.
That is fantastic to see that you are adopting an open-minded approach to this technology. Definitely a big ticket purchase upfront, and limits your flexibility, but if you place them in the right spots then it seems like a win/win (I'll spare you acknowledging the pun - you've heard it a zillion times). As for quality, I'd think it's time to do some recon down at Mt. Snow to see what their experience has been. They've installed them top to bottom on their core trails and, as you know, SB will generally be 5-10 degrees colder than them, so I would think any success they've had from a wuality perspective would be repeatable here.


They would likely only be useful on trails like lower Spring Fling, Easy Rider and the beginner kids areas. You wouldn't see us putting them on the higher narrower trails. Without going into more details there are pluses and minuses and fan guns are not the best for all mountains.
Yup. One size definitely doesn't fit all, but in the right circumstances and on the right terrain, the arguments seem compelling. Given what I've seen with the types/widths of trails Mt. Snow is instaling them on, I might go a bit further than just Spring Fling and Easy Rider, but we're on the same page as far as appropriate targets being lower mtn, high traffic and wide.


We did add a large number of energy efficient guns two years ago and are pleased with them. Yes, we could lease more diesel comporesors short-term for a cost of around $250,000 plus per month and in cold temperature get more snow making power. Some would like to have 100% of the mountain open day one, but this is just not cost effective. Like any business we have to manage our costs intelligently while attempting to deliver a good product and be economically viable for the long run. After labor, snowmaking is our largest expense.

That's a good amount of scratch. If that's the cost, then your bogey is $500-750K/yr (December through Jan or Feb). Call it $600K/year all in. Each fan gun installed is $35K or so, and you get a depreciation tax shield on $30K of that. You are likely going to incur more costs for pumping the extra water and higher maintenance costs as well, but I've no clue how much.

Regardless, if you purchase 50 fans, that's $1.75MM installed, but the tax shield mitigates the cost so your after tax cost is closer to $1.25MM. As a wild guess, you'd incur $200K of incremental maintenance and water pumping costs per year (which I think is pretty generous). So for a $1.25MM after-tax investment, you save a net $400K/year (three year payback)relative to what it would cost to lease the extra compressors. You're still spending more money than your baseline of course, but what's the payoff of having an opening day featuring 2-3 ways down plus beginner terrain (or a faster recovery post-thaw/freeze mid-season) vs. that baseline? In light of Mt. Snow's extensive season length last year, I would think this would also help you keep Spring Fling open a week or two longer than your baseline for less money.

[HowieT2]

Win -

Thanks once again for chiming in and helping to set the record straight.


A lot of questions to answer, so I will take a crack at a couple of them quickly. ASC never did the pond to the permitted level. It holds 25 million gallons which is approximately 20%-25% of what we pump in a normal season. It gets refilled from the Mad River as long as the river is above the Feburary mean level. There are no restrictions in refilling as long as the river in that high. In the future we do want to build some additional reservoirs for insurance and have a couple of locations in mind. Believe it or not because of various environment standards building new is most likely more cost efficient than expanding the existing pond. Either is a big expense.

This is great. Would the extra water be dedicated solely to LP, or to both LP and ME? I had understood via BMM here that ME had the more severe water limitations.


The fan gun you see is a demo for the year. Fans guns can make sense in certain situations and they do have the flexibility of being able to be turned on one gun at a time. They probably work well on wider trails and also when mounted on a pole. They are very difficult to move around. They also need colder temperatures to produce the quality snow that we would want here. They run around $25-$30K per fan before installation. That said we are experimenting with this one this winter to see if they might make sense in some place.
That is fantastic to see that you are adopting an open-minded approach to this technology. Definitely a big ticket purchase upfront, and limits your flexibility, but if you place them in the right spots then it seems like a win/win (I'll spare you acknowledging the pun - you've heard it a zillion times). As for quality, I'd think it's time to do some recon down at Mt. Snow to see what their experience has been. They've installed them top to bottom on their core trails and, as you know, SB will generally be 5-10 degrees colder than them, so I would think any success they've had from a wuality perspective would be repeatable here.


They would likely only be useful on trails like lower Spring Fling, Easy Rider and the beginner kids areas. You wouldn't see us putting them on the higher narrower trails. Without going into more details there are pluses and minuses and fan guns are not the best for all mountains.
Yup. One size definitely doesn't fit all, but in the right circumstances and on the right terrain, the arguments seem compelling. Given what I've seen with the types/widths of trails Mt. Snow is instaling them on, I might go a bit further than just Spring Fling and Easy Rider, but we're on the same page as far as appropriate targets being lower mtn, high traffic and wide.


We did add a large number of energy efficient guns two years ago and are pleased with them. Yes, we could lease more diesel comporesors short-term for a cost of around $250,000 plus per month and in cold temperature get more snow making power. Some would like to have 100% of the mountain open day one, but this is just not cost effective. Like any business we have to manage our costs intelligently while attempting to deliver a good product and be economically viable for the long run. After labor, snowmaking is our largest expense.

That's a good amount of scratch. If that's the cost, then your bogey is $500-750K/yr (December through Jan or Feb). Call it $600K/year all in. Each fan gun installed is $35K or so, and you get a depreciation tax shield on $30K of that. You are likely going to incur more costs for pumping the extra water and higher maintenance costs as well, but I've no clue how much.

Regardless, if you purchase 50 fans, that's $1.75MM installed, but the tax shield mitigates the cost so your after tax cost is closer to $1.25MM. As a wild guess, you'd incur $200K of incremental maintenance and water pumping costs per year (which I think is pretty generous). So for a $1.25MM after-tax investment, you save a net $400K/year (three year payback)relative to what it would cost to lease the extra compressors. You're still spending more money than your baseline of course, but what's the payoff of having an opening day featuring 2-3 ways down plus beginner terrain (or a faster recovery post-thaw/freeze mid-season) vs. that baseline? In light of Mt. Snow's extensive season length last year, I would think this would also help you keep Spring Fling open a week or two longer than your baseline for less money.

The fan guns don't require compressed air?? How are they powered, electricity? I would think the confluence of ripcord paradise and spillsville would be the perfect spot

[BushMogulMaster]

The fan guns don't require compressed air?? How are they powered, electricity? I would think the confluence of ripcord paradise and spillsville would be the perfect spot

Fan guns do require compressed air, just not in the quantities that air/water guns consume. Most fan guns have small onboard compressors to supply their own air, but they have the capability to run off of a hill air system. The fans and onboard compressors are powered by three-phase 480v.

FWIW, here is my comparison of fan gun vs. air/water from AlpineZone:

There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both. For ease of viewing, let's make some lists:

Advantages and Disadvantages of Fan-type Snowguns vs. Air/Water Snowguns

Fan Snowgun Advantages:

>Energy efficiency in optimal temperatures (very limited air consumption)
>High volume output in optimal temperatures (usu. 100-250gpm)
>Lower overall infrastructure cost (aside from guns)
----No need to have on-hill air system (expensive compressors and piping, + electricity)
>Quiet
>Long throw (can shoot snow pretty far)
>Marketing value (they LOOK big and powerful!)

Fan Snowgun Disadvantages:

>Large and immobile (require snowcat for moving)
>Lots of moving pieces and electronics/electrical to fail
>Substantial amount of required regular (and emergency) maintenance
----TONS OF NOZZLES!
>Requires 480v power lines to be run up the hill wherever snowmaking will take place
>HUGE initial financial investment for snowguns ($10,000-50,000 per unit)

Air/Water Snowgun Advantages:

>Higher snow volume output in marginal temperatures
>Very mobile (one snowmaker can generally maneuver them with some ease)
>Can be easily tower-mounted
>Inexpensive cost/unit for snowguns ($300-2000 per unit)
>Some can output more volume than fan guns (Rat Snowgiant V can do 270gpm)
>Can be purchased in low-air consumption models (low-energy a/w)
>Substantial supercooling effect (due to expansion of high-volume compressed air)
>Almost zero maintenance required
----If it ain't working, hit it with something big and metal... it'll work!

Air/Water Snowgun Disadvantages:

>High energy consumption in marginal temperatures
----Sucking lots and lots of air
>Expensive non-snowgun infrastructure
----Compressors can be $250,000 a piece
----On-hill air leaks can be very costly
>Units that consume a lot of air are LOUD!
----Sound pollution is a serious issue at the base area of resorts with on-hill real estate

[HowieT2]

The fan guns don't require compressed air?? How are they powered, electricity? I would think the confluence of ripcord paradise and spillsville would be the perfect spot

Fan guns do require compressed air, just not in the quantities that air/water guns consume. Most fan guns have small onboard compressors to supply their own air, but they have the capability to run off of a hill air system. The fans and onboard compressors are powered by three-phase 480v.

FWIW, here is my comparison of fan gun vs. air/water from AlpineZone:

There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both. For ease of viewing, let's make some lists:

Advantages and Disadvantages of Fan-type Snowguns vs. Air/Water Snowguns

Fan Snowgun Advantages:

>Energy efficiency in optimal temperatures (very limited air consumption)
>High volume output in optimal temperatures (usu. 100-250gpm)
>Lower overall infrastructure cost (aside from guns)
----No need to have on-hill air system (expensive compressors and piping, + electricity)
>Quiet
>Long throw (can shoot snow pretty far)
>Marketing value (they LOOK big and powerful!)

Fan Snowgun Disadvantages:

>Large and immobile (require snowcat for moving)
>Lots of moving pieces and electronics/electrical to fail
>Substantial amount of required regular (and emergency) maintenance
----TONS OF NOZZLES!
>Requires 480v power lines to be run up the hill wherever snowmaking will take place
>HUGE initial financial investment for snowguns ($10,000-50,000 per unit)

Air/Water Snowgun Advantages:

>Higher snow volume output in marginal temperatures
>Very mobile (one snowmaker can generally maneuver them with some ease)
>Can be easily tower-mounted
>Inexpensive cost/unit for snowguns ($300-2000 per unit)
>Some can output more volume than fan guns (Rat Snowgiant V can do 270gpm)
>Can be purchased in low-air consumption models (low-energy a/w)
>Substantial supercooling effect (due to expansion of high-volume compressed air)
>Almost zero maintenance required
----If it ain't working, hit it with something big and metal... it'll work!

Air/Water Snowgun Disadvantages:

>High energy consumption in marginal temperatures
----Sucking lots and lots of air
>Expensive non-snowgun infrastructure
----Compressors can be $250,000 a piece
----On-hill air leaks can be very costly
>Units that consume a lot of air are LOUD!
----Sound pollution is a serious issue at the base area of resorts with on-hill real estate

Thank you. On the face of it, it seems the fan guns would be a good addition to an existing system so that they can be operated at maximum efficiency.

[Tin Woodsman]

The fan guns don't require compressed air?? How are they powered, electricity? I would think the confluence of ripcord paradise and spillsville would be the perfect spot
That would be a great spot. That water bar there takes a long time to get covered.

[Tin Woodsman]

BMM -

Great stuff. Can you provide us with any of the relevant stats? What are optimal w/b temps for a fan gun vs. a/w (tripod and tower)?

What volume of air would a/w guns consume vs. fan guns?

Do you have any sense of the incremental maintenance expense (or hours) required per fan gun relative to a/w guns?

Am I full of it when I state that if water is not the bottleneck and compressed air is, that fan guns could help to materially increase production for a modest incremental cost (excluding upfront capital)?

[BushMogulMaster]

Tin,

I'll try to give you some totally off-the-cuff (but decent) answers here.


BMM -

Great stuff. Can you provide us with any of the relevant stats? What are optimal w/b temps for a fan gun vs. a/w (tripod and tower)?

Fan guns tend to be more efficient in the low to mid teens. In those temps, a/w guns are still using quite a bit of compressed air. However, once you get down into the single digits, a/w guns can become very efficient provided that there are ample nucleating agents in the water supply. A/w guns can gun with very little air consumption when temps allow water input to be wide open.


What volume of air would a/w guns consume vs. fan guns?

Totally dependent on the gun. Varies greatly. But here are some examples. Extrapolate as you will from these.

Big Ratnik a/w guns eat up 300-1500cfm. Low-e Rats use 50-200cfm. HKD low-e guns use 50-150cfm or so. Turbocristal Sauron uses 25cfm.

Hedco Cub fan guns consume 10cfm. SMI Polecats use 20-100cfm.


Do you have any sense of the incremental maintenance expense (or hours) required per fan gun relative to a/w guns?

Tough to pinpoint an exact number for you, but suffice it to say it is a substantial difference. You really don't have to do jack with a/w guns. Rime them out when they freeze up, beat them with hard steel when they're not working, etc. :wink:

Fan guns require extensive attention. They have rings of tiny nozzles that get clogged or scored and require cleaning and replacement. The compressor motors require maintenance like any other motor. The fan motors require maintenance. As with any electric/electronics over mechanics, the are inherent and unpredictable issues that must be dealt with. They have to be level or you will run the onboard compressor with part of the motor dry (no oil), and it will burn up.


Am I full of it when I state that if water is not the bottleneck and compressed air is, that fan guns could help to materially increase production for a modest incremental cost (excluding upfront capital)?

Depends. But water is usually as much as a problem as air. Not necessarily quantity, but pumping ability. I'm not sure what our total pumping capacity is at LP.