PDA

View Full Version : Sugarbush to Focus on Moguls at Mount Ellen



10-02-2008, 12:37 PM
BMM wrote a great article with some exciting news for mogul enthusiasts:

http://news.alpinezone.com/37398/

Thoughts?

Hawk
10-02-2008, 03:19 PM
So are they going to have an actual freestyle team that will compete in competitions or is it just teaching people to ski moguls.

BushMogulMaster
10-02-2008, 03:30 PM
So are they going to have an actual freestyle team that will compete in competitions or is it just teaching people to ski moguls.

There already is a competitive freestyle team: Diamond Dogs.

ski_resort_observer
10-02-2008, 03:58 PM
So are they going to have an actual freestyle team that will compete in competitions or is it just teaching people to ski moguls.

There already is a competitive freestyle team: Diamond Dogs.

There is also a seasonal freestyle developement program

Free Riders: Freestyle Development Team Ski & Ride - Ages 9-17

For ages 9-17, advanced skiers and riders only, looking to develop their mogul, aerial, park, pipe, and big air skills in a strong team atmosphere, without the cost and stress of competing. Free Rider coaches are highly trained and licensed by the USSA and the USASA...

Diamond Dogs: Freestyle Competition Team Ski & Ride - Ages 9-17 Double Black Diamond
For advanced skiers and riders aged 9-17 years who want to train and compete in bumps, big air, slopestyle, halfpipe, and other freestyle events. The Diamond Dogs is a regionally and nationally competitive freestyle team recognized by the USSA and USASA and competes in both local and regional freestyle series...

Sweet article! So when is your ETA for the winter?

shadyjay
10-02-2008, 04:03 PM
BMM wrote a great article with some exciting news for mogul enthusiasts:

http://news.alpinezone.com/37398/

Thoughts?

Now what about those of us who are not mogul enthusiasts because we're on a snowboard, yet have the Mt Ellen pass?

Are they going to destroy perfectly good cruisers by putting bumps on them? I hope not!

Please tell me that they're only going to mogul half the width of the trails that they do mogul. I'd hate to see my favorite mtn destroyed with nothing but skier-loving moguls.

BushMogulMaster
10-02-2008, 06:23 PM
BMM wrote a great article with some exciting news for mogul enthusiasts:

http://news.alpinezone.com/37398/

Thoughts?

Now what about those of us who are not mogul enthusiasts because we're on a snowboard, yet have the Mt Ellen pass?

Are they going to destroy perfectly good cruisers by putting bumps on them? I hope not!

Please tell me that they're only going to mogul half the width of the trails that they do mogul. I'd hate to see my favorite mtn destroyed with nothing but skier-loving moguls.

Have no fear, Shadyjay... there'll be plenty of wide open corduroy if that's what you're looking for. But you will definitely see more bumps on some of the lower pitch runs (probably some 1/2 width, we'll see).

SRO... my flight leaves Denver on election day. Flying into Burlington, and will be back in time to vote!

Lostone
10-02-2008, 06:38 PM
In answer to your question, Jay, I'm sure they'll have most of the usual suspects as cruisers. No matter what, there is still a larger portion of their market that won't do moguls, for a variety of reasons, than those that do. I can't believe they're about to send them away.

This is not inside info, but just logic. :wink:

BushMogulMaster
10-02-2008, 07:42 PM
In answer to your question, Jay, I'm sure they'll have most of the usual suspects as cruisers. No matter what, there is still a larger portion of their market that won't do moguls, for a variety of reasons, than those that do. I can't believe they're about to send them away.

This is not inside info, but just logic. :wink:

You're right, that this is a large market for cruisers. And those will still be available. But I think you might have missed the point a little. We don't just want to maintain the status-quo market... Mt. Ellen is trying to draw in a new crowd, some new blood. Believe it or not, there is quite a demand for good quality mogul skiing in New England (Mary Jane-esque). Nowhere else in Vermont offers a quality mogul product with terrains for all abilities. How else will folks learn to ski moguls except by offering lower pitch mogul runs?

You have to realize that Sugarbush has always had a ton of mogul runs. Castlerock, Stein's, Ripcord, Mall, Twist, Paradise, FIS, Black Diamond, Exterm, Bravo, Cliffs, Tumbler, Encore, Hammerhead, etc. But what's the common theme there? Black or double black. So we are offering a product that is out of reach for most skiers. By offering lower pitch learning mogul terrain, we will be able to provide the opportunity for folks to progress up to that level.

Bump skiers always whine about bad lines, and bad skiers in their lines. How do you fix that? You provide those people who want to ski bumps with the opportunity to learn.

That's the goal, that's the idea, that's what we're doing this season. See ya in the bumps!

Lostone
10-02-2008, 08:13 PM
I'm not trying to run the place, but You will notice that far more people don't ski bumps than those that do.

It isn't a lack of places to ski them. Like you said, there are a ton of trails to ski bumps. They are mostly uncrowded because most people would prefer to ski elsewhere.

You may just think it is a lack of places to ski bumps, but I know it is mostly because they don't want to. That may be because of bad backs, knees, and muscles that don't do much exercise. You might not think much of these people, but they are paying guests.

If you make the non-bump trails too crowded, elsewhere will be another mountain.

Just my opinion, but born out by looking at the trail traffic.

And remember that Killington is trying to get new blood there, too. I just hope we don't make their mistake of getting rid of the former customers before drawing in the new ones.

HowieT2
10-02-2008, 09:12 PM
so what trails are going to bumped up that weren't previously?

shadyjay
10-02-2008, 09:21 PM
Usual groomers at ME:
-Everything off the Sunny D (of which half is terrain park)
-Straight Shot & Crackerjack
-Cruiser
-Which Way (terrain park)
-Northstar
-Rim Run
-Elbow
-Lookin' Good
-Inverness (racing)
-NR Exp'y
-Northway
-Walt's (natural snow)

What's left, after we also add black/double blacks to the mix (which are usually bumped anyway)?
Semi-Tough

There is already a huge amount of bump runs at the 'Bush compared to other resorts. Other resorts have diamonds that are steep but don't have bumps. Outside of Organgrinder and the Cliffs, there aren't too many options for that. We have everything on Castlerock, which is bumps. The Mall... Steins... Ripcord.... Morning Star.... Tumbler. Hammerhead.... Bravo..... Encore..... FIS ..... Black Diamond. Honestly, folks, how many more bumps do we need?

Lostone brought up some excellent points.... I've talked to many folks on the lifts who don't ride bumps, because of age, past injuries, etc. The bump runs are often quite empty, while Elbow and Rim Run can be high trafficked runs. I don't want to give up Sugarbush as my mountain, but if everything is bumped other than Rim Run and Northstar, then I'm going to be an unhappy camper... especially on those days when only the groomers are skiable/edgeable. Moguls are okay in soft spring snow, but in my opinion, we don't need Mt Ellen turned into an FIS-type profile from top to bottom.

And please... no bumps on the clusterf*!@ that is Mainstream!

BushMogulMaster
10-02-2008, 09:38 PM
Lostone, you missed the point again. I'm never said that there aren't enough areas with mogul trails. The point is, there's nowhere to learn. That's the big difference.

It's not a banishing of groomers, or a desire to push out folks who want to ski groomers. It's a desire to help bring back a sport that once had a huge following, and for which a demand still exists. You know why you don't see people in the bumps? Because they're intimidated by the terrain. That's why there needs to be a serious offering of moguls on intermediate terrain. Does that mean Rim, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way (not going to be terrain park, AFAIK), Northstar, Etc. will all be allowed to bump up? No. You may find portions of intermediate runs with moguls.

I assure you you aren't looking at a case where every run on the mountain is wall to wall bumps. But there will be more, and some will be on lower pitch trails.

Come up to Ellen this season, Shadyjay. I'd love to ski with you for the day, and get your opinion after you get to ride the mountain. I think you're putting words in my mouth here. It was never said here or in the article that the whole mountain was going to be moguls. It said the focus is going to be realigned toward moguls and all of the natural aspects of skiing.

And lostone, while I think you've brought up some valid points, I don't see things quite the same way. If you think for a minute that anyone in the operation places a lesser value on folks who just want to ski the cruisers, you're wrong. I think all of us on this forum know that they are a substantial portion of the paying public. No doubt.

But this is a segment of the market that has been ignored for too long. Sure, say what you will... there's plenty of bump runs. But that's not enough. Attention must be paid, proper instruction must be made available (and I don't mean PSIA's bump method). Bump skiers are people too :wink:

Why don't many recreational skiers ski bumps? Because they "can't" or because they're afraid. Can that be changed? Yup.

I'm stoked for this season. There will be terrain for everyone. You want cruisers? You'll have them. You want trees? You'll have them. You want bumps? You'll have them. You'll even be able to learn!

It's going to be good, and I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

HowieT2
10-02-2008, 10:05 PM
Lostone, you missed the point again. I'm never said that there aren't enough areas with mogul trails. The point is, there's nowhere to learn. That's the big difference.

It's not a banishing of groomers, or a desire to push out folks who want to ski groomers. It's a desire to help bring back a sport that once had a huge following, and for which a demand still exists. You know why you don't see people in the bumps? Because they're intimidated by the terrain. That's why there needs to be a serious offering of moguls on intermediate terrain. Does that mean Rim, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way (not going to be terrain park, AFAIK), Northstar, Etc. will all be allowed to bump up? No. You may find portions of intermediate runs with moguls.

I assure you you aren't looking at a case where every run on the mountain is wall to wall bumps. But there will be more, and some will be on lower pitch trails.

Come up to Ellen this season, Shadyjay. I'd love to ski with you for the day, and get your opinion after you get to ride the mountain. I think you're putting words in my mouth here. It was never said here or in the article that the whole mountain was going to be moguls. It said the focus is going to be realigned toward moguls and all of the natural aspects of skiing.

And lostone, while I think you've brought up some valid points, I don't see things quite the same way. If you think for a minute that anyone in the operation places a lesser value on folks who just want to ski the cruisers, you're wrong. I think all of us on this forum know that they are a substantial portion of the paying public. No doubt.

But this is a segment of the market that has been ignored for too long. Sure, say what you will... there's plenty of bump runs. But that's not enough. Attention must be paid, proper instruction must be made available (and I don't mean PSIA's bump method). Bump skiers are people too :wink:

Why don't many recreational skiers ski bumps? Because they "can't" or because they're afraid. Can that be changed? Yup.

I'm stoked for this season. There will be terrain for everyone. You want cruisers? You'll have them. You want trees? You'll have them. You want bumps? You'll have them. You'll even be able to learn!

It's going to be good, and I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

BMM-I think it's great that there is going be a marketing effort towards bump skiers. Hopefully, that will bring some to the mountain. However, I don't believe you are going to convert the occasional recreational skier to a bump skiing enthusiast. I say this, as someone who, up until about 4 seasons ago, skied between 5-10 days a year. Now that I ski much more frequently, I can and do ski the bumps. While I was an infrequent skier, I dreaded them. The occasional skier, which I believe, is the vast majority, is not going to look forward to skiing bumps on their weekend or week of skiing per year. It takes work and repetition to get to the point where anyone is ready and confident enough to enjoy doing bumps runs. Maybe it's just me.

freeheel_skier
10-02-2008, 10:13 PM
BMM-I think it's great that there is going be a marketing effort towards bump skiers. Hopefully, that will bring some to the mountain. However, I don't believe you are going to convert the occasional recreational skier to a bump skiing enthusiast. I say this, as someone who, up until about 4 seasons ago, skied between 5-10 days a year. Now that I ski much more frequently, I can and do ski the bumps. While I was an infrequent skier, I dreaded them. The occasional skier, which I believe, is the vast majority, is not going to look forward to skiing bumps on their weekend or week of skiing per year. It takes work and repetition to get to the point where anyone is ready and confident enough to enjoy doing bumps runs. Maybe it's just me.

Very valid point!

bill-now
10-03-2008, 06:53 AM
I agree with BMM that the Bush needs more beginner and intermediate bump runs; however to keep the non-bump skiers happy SB should balance out the distribution of bump runs. I would prefer to see some of the black and double black runs groomed on one side to compensate for the greens and blues "lost" to bumps.

I would love to see beginner trails such as Easy Rider bumped up along one edge; this would give better skiers something on which to amuse themselves when they are hanging out with their beginner friends or young children. It would also give new skiers something to aspire to as they ride the lift.

skibum1321
10-03-2008, 07:03 AM
I agree with BMM that the Bush needs more beginner and intermediate bump runs; however to keep the non-bump skiers happy SB should balance out the distribution of bump runs. I would prefer to see some of the black and double black runs groomed on one side to compensate for the greens and blues "lost" to bumps.
I definitely don't agree with that sentiment. I am very unlikely to be skiing intermediate bump runs so that would just be a loss for me since there would be less bumps on the terrain that I ski. In my experience it seems that whenever there is a steep groomed trail they get ridiculously icy because people get in over their heads and then death slide down. Just look at Cliffs - the groomed side is normally a sheet of ice.

gone.skiing
10-03-2008, 07:07 AM
I think it is great that they are trying something new. If anything kids will go there and play while parents are skiing groomed parts. If it does not work flatness edge to edge is only a groomer ride away.

One challenge (among many I am sure) is keeping "experts" under control in those areas. Last thing you want is somebody skiing zipper line at full speed mixed up with kids and beginners.

Hawk
10-03-2008, 07:30 AM
This whole topic is very interesting to me. There is only one way to learn bumps. Ski Bumps! Only the very novice bump skiers need low angel bump runs and there are plenty of options at north for that. The rest is just sheer repetitiveness and some good coaching. I think Parky does a great job teaching this discipline with the Bush Pilots. Other than Mr. Babic, he is about the smoothest bump skier I have seen on the hill.

Don't get me wrong. I originally came from a mountain that had a very strong mogul program and I benefitted greatly from living with some awesome coaches. That is all I skied for years. I'm just wondering why the mountain doesn't extend the existing programs instead of this whole new endeavor. Or is this one of those feel good programs that gets people to ski North? It just sounds like Marketing. If it's serious coaching and training I would be interested.

I do not agree with anyone who promotes the grooming of steep moguled terrain. But that I know is a whole different debate.

Jay, you are a good boarder. I have seen you. You can do bumps if you just set your mind to it. You need to stop chasing those skicks and let it ride... :wink:

10-03-2008, 09:03 AM
There is only one way to learn bumps. Ski Bumps!

Totally! You're not going to get it by flailing through a steep bump field once or twice per outing. The only result there will be frustration and probably accounts for some of the disdain for moguls I see here.

I'm surprised to see such an anti-bump response from the Sugarbush faithful. Aside from MRG, SB offers more ungroomed terrain than most other resorts as it is. Wouldn't you want to ski it all well? As was pointed out, the point here seems to be to offer some lower angle bumps for folks to learn on. Starting on gentler pitches is the key since it's less intimidating. It's hard to learn to ski bumps on Exterm or The Mall. Those that try probably fail and that's why they get frustrated and why moguls are so often frowned upon. This season there will be an opportunity for folks to progress on moguled terrain that is appropriate to their ability. I suspect more SB skiers than ever will discover the joy of skiing bumps. Once a few of the basics click, and they will if you put in the miles, you might just find yourself getting hooked.

About half my ski days are at a little local hill here in CT. They have a very similar mogul philosophy and that's to offer a few different pitched bump fields. I put a lot of time in on them and when I do get up north, those skills translate pretty well up there. Learning to ski bumps well (not just survive them) helps all around the mountain, especially the more technical natural trails (not necessarily mogul runs) and in the trees. There is a pretty significant level of dedication involved to figure it out, but for me, learning to ski bumps has been one of the most rewarding things I've done skiing. When I started skiing in the mid 90's, I would hack my way down bump runs like Outer Limits or Superstar and would simply be in awe of the guys that can rip. Still a looooong way to go, but I'm getting closer to that.

So...give the bumps a try this season, and get off the groomers!

labwab198
10-03-2008, 09:11 AM
Mount Ellen right now is under utilized. If they continue to operate it as it has it will stay underuntilized. I think this is attempt to give Mount Ellen its own identity and increase skier visits.
As others have pointed out, if all you do is ski groomers there is a lot of Sugarbush that you will never experience. I know for myself, moguls were a tough thing to learn because there were so few easier options not only because of the steepness but it was intimidating because once you started down there were no bail out options. By doing things like only grooming half the width of an easier trail--you eliminate those concerns. Will everyone now ski moguls--of course not. But also remember--its not like they just sold all their groomers and announced a no grooming policy. I view this as a work in progress that can be adjusted as needed. On busy holidays and weekends--maybe more grooming to accomodate the occassional skier (or when the bumps get nasty) but during other times--only partial grooming. And remember--they're also talking about emphisizing tree skiing etc.

Let's face it--if this increases skier visits it means more money to spend on mountain improvements. I think we should applaud the thinking and wait and see the end result.

summitchallenger
10-03-2008, 09:17 AM
I agree with BMM that the Bush needs more beginner and intermediate bump runs; however to keep the non-bump skiers happy SB should balance out the distribution of bump runs. I would prefer to see some of the black and double black runs groomed on one side to compensate for the greens and blues "lost" to bumps.


I agree. The balance right now is pretty good IMHO. I don't think that this is anti-bump at all....it's just an argument that the current mix is good. I do understand the need for more interest at Mt. Ellen and we have seen much effort to promote it (terrain park, the glade skiing push, cheaper passes, etc). But I think that there are some folks who say, "if it ain't broke don't fix it." Nothing wrong with that. But I do understand the need for some intermediate/low angle bumps. I'd suggest using Inverness (good luck with GMVS) or one side of the Green trail that snakes from SBX down to Straight Shot...I can't recall its name...

And it's hard to groom one of the blacks because the ones that could be easily groomed (Exterminator, Lower FIS, etc) are usually great ungroomed and a bit too narrow to allow for one side groomed and the other bumped.

Experiment sure, but I just don't want to see Elbow, Cruiser, North Star, etc. become bumped up...they are best groomed as they were designed to be.

10-03-2008, 09:21 AM
Are they going to destroy perfectly good cruisers by putting bumps on them?

Heresy! Destroying perfectly good bump runs by grooming them is the true atrocity. :P

summitchallenger
10-03-2008, 09:32 AM
What about the blues that have always been bumped up? Semi-Tough and the former Brambles come to mind. Simply let those bump up and add a green bump run or two and you're good!

Hawk
10-03-2008, 09:35 AM
I here you guys. I guess my perspective is just a little different. I learned on very steep terrain and was forced to figure it out. It made me better quick. I was just hoping that I might get in some good quality ski time with some good instructors and not have to pay $1,000 to join the pilots. I ski bumps pretty well and would be looking for some pointers on refining my style to be smoother. This sounds taylored to making beginner/intermediate skiers happy. That's not me. Oh well....

10-03-2008, 09:38 AM
I would prefer to see some of the black and double black runs groomed on one side to compensate for the greens and blues "lost" to bumps.

I have mixed feelings on this. Before the concept of allowing lower angled pitches to have bumps on them, half grooming the steep bump runs was the only way to satisfy the majority of the skiing population. I get that. Another part of me thinks half grooming a classic steep bump run sucks the soul right out of them. I know it's not SB, but take Outer Limits (the "East's steepest and longer bump run") at Killington for example. The past few years they've been half grooming it so just amount anyone that's reached intermediate skill can get down it. Half grooming a run like Stein's or Exterminator to provide a bailout, sorta defeats the whole purpose of allowing the lower angle terrain to bump up. Those that aren't ready for the steep bumps should stick with flatter ones until they build enough skill to ski the steeper ones without the need to bail onto the groomed. Half-grooming runs in the spring when terrain is limited is a reasonable approach however.

10-03-2008, 09:41 AM
This sounds taylored to making beginner/intermediate skiers happy. That's not me. Oh well....

Look at the bigger picture. The more folks that try bumps, the more that will likely become hooked. Many of those will become very proficient and the result is more demand for bumps all around the hill which will benefit you. The folks that really have a dislike for bumps are the ones that haven't put in the time to learn them well, or simply have been to intimidated to learn due to the steep pitch of runs that are typically allowed to bump up. This gives them an opportunity.

Hawk
10-03-2008, 09:47 AM
I understand Greg. It will benefit the mountain. I guess my motives were a little self centered.

What I can't understand is people not liking moguls and challanging terrain. It's that the fun of skiing the challenge?

10-03-2008, 09:59 AM
What I can't understand is people not liking moguls and challanging terrain. It's that the fun of skiing the challenge?

I'm going to offend people that don't like bumps right now so be warned. People who say they don't ski bumps, can't ski bumps. That's the bottom line. Not that I blame them. Like I said, learning to ski bumps on a steep run with huge moguls is not only scary and frustrating, but can be dangerous. Many mountains in the Northeast are at fault here. It's seems 90% of the terrain at most mountains is boring vanilla groomers. If that's all there is, that's all people will learn to ski. Sugarbush's (non)grooming policy is pretty good though. The abundance of ungroomed terrain is why the place is one of my favorites to ski. As you know skiing bumps well is not something you pick up by skiing a few bump runs a day. There's a certain level of dedication required and normally the love of bumps is a natural result of putting in that time. This approach will give folks a chance to progress at their own pace and ability level. I applaud it.

HowieT2
10-03-2008, 10:58 AM
FWIW-it's great to finally have some action on this board so I don't have to read the news which is frankly nauseating.
Bottom line is until I see some definitive changes as to what is going to be groomed or bumped, I think this is just a marketing push to get more hard core skiers over to ME. I think it's a good smart move.

summitchallenger
10-03-2008, 11:10 AM
It's seems 90% of the terrain at most mountains is boring vanilla groomers. If that's all there is, that's all people will learn to ski.

Well, that is because of two things I think:

(1) The weather (freeze/thaw) makes it tough to keep good bumps for many mountains. And, more importantly:
(2) The market demand. We've said this before...the folks with the disposable $$$ are older folks and they are too old for bumps. They want ego terrain. You only need look at Okemo and Bretton Woods (which went from an affordable family/beginner area to an upscale elitest resort) to see that areas are catering to that crowd...the ones who drive the nice cars and have the nice skis but don't want to or can't handle stuff the younger hard core set can. Killington is taming their image for this same crowd.

And I was just going to say...I think it is great to have so much interest in this topic and to spark discussion on this board!

Yard Sale
10-03-2008, 11:13 AM
What I can't understand is people not liking moguls and challanging terrain. It's that the fun of skiing the challenge?

I'm going to offend people that don't like bumps right now so be warned. People who say they don't ski bumps, can't ski bumps. That's the bottom line. Not that I blame them. There's a certain level of dedication required and normally the love of bumps is a natural result of putting in that time. This approach will give folks a chance to progress at their own pace and ability level. I applaud it.

The casual a couple times a year skiier doesn't want challenge, at least not a large amount of challenge. Like anyone anywhere they just want to enjoy themselves and share that enjoyment with friends and family. That being said this is a good move.

The non bump skiier sees additional bumps as an insurmountable obstacle placing limits on where they can go and not only limiting enjoyment. Non bump skiiers usually have had an experience with bumps and usually not a good one and therefore are steadfast in their experience based belief that bumps suck. Bump skiiers are literally quite fanatical that bumps rock and that if you can ski them you most likely can ski anything. Neither group can comprehend the others lack of understanding to the opposing view.

One thing is clear skiing bumps even a little bit does improve one's overall skill set. Not everyone can rip down the zipper line. I can't. At least not like I would like to. I'm not a bump skier. But I enjoy skiing the bumps achy knees and all. There was a time when I was relegated to the groomers. But having the opportunity to put a little time in the bumps does pay off. Like all aspects of skiing there are many ways to manage different terrain types. Not everyone bombs groomers either. Some people take 'em nice and slow. Varied turn radii apply everywhere.

Groomer riders take heart. It won't take long before more skiiers/boarders feel low angle bumps are fun as hell. Despite the hype of this announced change of philosophy I can't imagine that the bet effect to bump or groomer skiers boarders will be much different. It's just another item on the menu.

Offering introductory level bumps is a good move.

10-03-2008, 11:26 AM
(1) The weather (freeze/thaw) makes it tough to keep good bumps for many mountains. And, more importantly:
(2) The market demand. We've said this before...the folks with the disposable $$$ are older folks and they are too old for bumps. They want ego terrain. You only need look at Okemo and Bretton Woods (which went from an affordable family/beginner area to an upscale elitest resort) to see that areas are catering to that crowd...the ones who drive the nice cars and have the nice skis but don't want to or can't handle stuff the younger hard core set can. Killington is taming their image for this same crowd.

I definitely do not buy into number 1. Little Sundown seeds bumps and does a good job at maintaining them by continually "dusting" them with snowmaking. Their bump lines remain in place for several weeks at a time. Sometimes they get pretty fugly, but I don't recall them ever being roped. If they do have to plow some down, they reseed a different run. Trust me, CT has more freeze/thaw issues than Sugarbush does.

Your number 2 argument is a classic chicken/egg debate. Ski areas used to be more liberal about leaving terrain ungroomed. Now it's mostly groomed, and like as I said, if that's all there is, that's what you'll ski. I think it has less to do with rich folks with bad knees and more to do with advances in ski technology the last 10 years which has made it easier for the average Joe to carve or ski powder in the trees. But he ain't gonna be able to fake it in the bumps....

summitchallenger
10-03-2008, 12:07 PM
I definitely do not buy into number 1. Little Sundown seeds bumps and does a good job at maintaining them by continually "dusting" them with snowmaking. Their bump lines remain in place for several weeks at a time. Sometimes they get pretty fugly, but I don't recall them ever being roped. If they do have to plow some down, they reseed a different run. Trust me, CT has more freeze/thaw issues than Sugarbush does.

Yes, but how big is Sundown compared to Killington or Sugarbush? How much more area and $$$ does it take to maintain the latter areas and to resurface/groom after bad weather? Small places like Pats Peak and the areas in CT can get away with grooming and recover much easier than Sugarbush with 500 or so acres of trails (Andy Zee where are you to tell us exactly how many acres? :wink: )


Your number 2 argument is a classic chicken/egg debate. Ski areas used to be more liberal about leaving terrain ungroomed. Now it's mostly groomed, and like as I said, if that's all there is, that's what you'll ski. I think it has less to do with rich folks with bad knees and more to do with advances in ski technology the last 10 years which has made it easier for the average Joe to carve or ski powder in the trees. But he ain't gonna be able to fake it in the bumps....

Yes, there may be some chicken and egg going on, but think about your argument...which supports my point...you said that ski areas "in the past" had more ungroomed terrain. Well, who was their market? Yep, the same people who are the primary market now (babyboomers) except they were younger, stronger, and more able to handle bumps. Fast forward 20 years or so and those same folks are in their late 50's and 60's and most are NOT in shape to ski that same terrain. Instead, they want groomed terrain. The ski resorts have to keep the customer satisfied and, regrettably, the customers with the $$$ for homes, ski lessons, expensive meals, etc. are not you and me.

daevious
10-03-2008, 12:10 PM
...the folks with the disposable $$$ are older folks and they are too old for bumps. ...

So, how old is "too old for bumps?"

10-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Yes, but how big is Sundown compared to Killington or Sugarbush? How much more area and $$$ does it take to maintain the latter areas and to resurface/groom after bad weather? Small places like Pats Peak and the areas in CT can get away with grooming and recover much easier than Sugarbush with 500 or so acres of trails (Andy Zee where are you to tell us exactly how many acres? :wink: )
Of course, it's easier for a small feeder hill to maintain bumps. Sundown will actually send guys up the hill with shovels to back fill burned out troughs! They take their bumps that seriously. My point was that Sugarbush despite being much larger also doesn't have nearly the freeze/thaw issues to contend with that a ski area down here in the tropics does. Secondly, it doesn't take a lot of effort to hit a bump run with some snowmaking when they get a little firm. Trust me, it makes a difference. The only problem with that is sometimes you get some funky whaling which makes a bump run interesting to ski to say the least. :lol:



Yes, there may be some chicken and egg going on, but think about your argument...which supports my point...you said that ski areas "in the past" had more ungroomed terrain. Well, who was their market? Yep, the same people who are the primary market now (babyboomers) except they were younger, stronger, and more able to handle bumps. Fast forward 20 years or so and those same folks are in their late 50's and 60's and most are NOT in shape to ski that same terrain. Instead, they want groomed terrain. The ski resorts have to keep the customer satisfied and, regrettably, the customers with the $$$ for homes, ski lessons, expensive meals, etc. are not you and me.
Based on your observation, there will be nobody that can rip bumps when the babyboomers all hit the bone yard and are cranking big GS turns at the ski area in the sky. This begs the question then, why is there no new generation of mogul fanatics? Because the amount of ungroomed terrain at most (again, Sugarbush is not the norm) ski areas is pretty limited. I think there is a bit of a shift happening though and this new approach seems to be an effort to reverse that trend. Also, ski areas like Sundown, Sunapee and Okemo have been seeding bump runs for a few years. Let's make bump skiing cool again!

summitchallenger
10-03-2008, 12:32 PM
Based on your observation, there will be nobody that can rip bumps when the babyboomers all hit the bone yard and are cranking big GS turns at the ski area in the sky. This begs the question then, why is there no new generation of mogul fanatics? Because the amount of ungroomed terrain at most (again, Sugarbush is not the norm) ski areas is pretty limited. I think there is a bit of a shift happening though and this new approach seems to be an effort to reverse that trend. Also, ski areas like Sundown, Sunapee and Okemo have been seeding bump runs for a few years. Let's make bump skiing cool again!

Well, that is great but the resorts have to look at what the majority of skiers and riders want, and then also what a majority of those with $$$ want...my point is that those who currently make up the largest segment of the market, and are the most profitable for the resorts, want Okemoesque terrain. Not what us diehards want, but how much $$$ will they make off us diehards who bring our bag lunches, ski on discount days or on a pass, and go up, ski, use the restrooms, and drive home?

Now if the majority of the profitable customers wanted bumps everywhere, most resorts would deliver that. But right now the deep-pocket crowd don't want bumps.

In the end, it's all about balance.

WWF-VT
10-03-2008, 12:37 PM
What about the blues that have always been bumped up? Semi-Tough and the former Brambles come to mind. Simply let those bump up and add a green bump run or two and you're good!

Crackerjack is a wide green that could be a good fit for this idea.

10-03-2008, 12:49 PM
Based on your observation, there will be nobody that can rip bumps when the babyboomers all hit the bone yard and are cranking big GS turns at the ski area in the sky. This begs the question then, why is there no new generation of mogul fanatics? Because the amount of ungroomed terrain at most (again, Sugarbush is not the norm) ski areas is pretty limited. I think there is a bit of a shift happening though and this new approach seems to be an effort to reverse that trend. Also, ski areas like Sundown, Sunapee and Okemo have been seeding bump runs for a few years. Let's make bump skiing cool again!

Well, that is great but the resorts have to look at what the majority of skiers and riders want, and then also what a majority of those with $$$ want...my point is that those who currently make up the largest segment of the market, and are the most profitable for the resorts, want Okemoesque terrain. Not what us diehards want, but how much $$$ will they make off us diehards who bring our bag lunches, ski on discount days or on a pass, and go up, ski, use the restrooms, and drive home?

Now if the majority of the profitable customers wanted bumps everywhere, most resorts would deliver that. But right now the deep-pocket crowd don't want bumps.

In the end, it's all about balance.

Can't argue the fact that the average skier prefers more gentle groomed slopes. Still I feel there is a growing demand for terrain like this. If Mount Ellen can attain a Mary Jane-like reputation as the East coast bump/glade/natural terrain mecca, than there is a potential to capitalize on this. MRG right up the road just compliments the philosophy. There are countless other ski areas/resorts in the region where folks can find plenty of trails groomed flat as a pancake. Certainly a rather bold move that might prove wildly successful...or not. Only time will tell.

summitchallenger
10-03-2008, 12:52 PM
Right on Greg. I am going to be a passholder at SB because of the variety of terrain. I normally do a run on Elbow, then hit bumps on FIS, then ski down Rim Run Cruiser, then back up to Exterminator, etc. My point: I ski it all. A lot of skiers and riders do. I think that SB as it is right now offers a really great variety and their market is less of the Okemo crowd and more of a, well, an SB crowd of great skiers and riders.

Hardbooter
10-03-2008, 12:53 PM
I'm detecting a serious lack of stoke here.* I think this plan is AWESOME. I love that the staff at Sugarbush is thinking about this stuff. How do we sell the mountain? How do we get people pumped? For those who like cruisers as they are, I don't think some intermediate bumps are going to even be noticeable. You will ski right around them.
For my fellow boarders, I recommend thinking about it this way: what would you say if Sugarbush said that they were going to put a ton of "hits" all over the intermediate runs and not groom them out every night? That would be pretty cool, eh? That's exactly what an intermediate bump run on a cruiser is. I think Sugarbush is reinforcing it's image as the baddest of the bad in the east and I love it. It's time for you Mt. Ellen pass holders to get stoked and go work on your bump technique. It only leads to good things.
I like to think of bumps as a gateway drug. First you try some bumps 'cause your friends are doing it. Then pretty soon you go in the trees and nobody really sees you anymore. Then, before you know it, you're spending all day in powder in the woods and all your friends are complaining that you're hanging out with a new crowd. Then you start missing days at work (powder flu) and your spouse starts wondering where all your money has gone (season pass.) It's all downhill from there...

* In the interest of full disclosure, I don't really ski on the trails or care what they plan to do with them but I do understand stoke. :) Um, and hey its snowing up there.

Tin Woodsman
10-03-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm going to offend people that don't like bumps right now so be warned. People who say they don't ski bumps, can't ski bumps. That's the bottom line. Not that I blame them. Like I said, learning to ski bumps on a steep run with huge moguls is not only scary and frustrating, but can be dangerous. Many mountains in the Northeast are at fault here. It's seems 90% of the terrain at most mountains is boring vanilla groomers. If that's all there is, that's all people will learn to ski. Sugarbush's (non)grooming policy is pretty good though. The abundance of ungroomed terrain is why the place is one of my favorites to ski. As you know skiing bumps well is not something you pick up by skiing a few bump runs a day. There's a certain level of dedication required and normally the love of bumps is a natural result of putting in that time. This approach will give folks a chance to progress at their own pace and ability level. I applaud it.
I'm not offended, but I think this is well off base. Now maybe I'm not typical, but I choose not to ski bumps that often b/c I just have a lot more fun spending my time on other types of terrain. There are always exceptions, particularly in the Spring or after a recent snowfall, but that's about it.

I'll reserve judgement until I hear the details on how and where this policy will be implemented. I'm wary of this at the outset, as ME's biggest asset is its world class cruising terrain, IMO. It would be a shame to diminish the availability of same for the benefit of the tiny minority of skiers who enjoy bumps. Just take a look at the demographics folks - the snow sliding population is increasingly older, and increasingly on a single plank - two groups that generally avoid bumps for very good reasons.

Where could they be talking about? I would think they will want to avoid the key cruising runs of Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser, Northway, Mainstream and Which Way. Can't do it on Straight Shot for obvious reasons. Inverness and Brambles are off-limits due to GMVS. I guess Cracker Jack would be a candidate, along with sugar Run or something. The one that really comes to mind is Upper Lookin Good. It's got a nice even pitch and doesn't see a huge amount of traffic anyway. I suspect that Semi-tough will be in the mix as well, as it is an ideal candidate due to the individual pitches separated by flatter sections where you can get in 10-15 turns and then take a break before plunging into the next section. Maybe far skiers' left or right of Lower Elbow too? Like I said, I need to hear the details before an informed response can be made. SB has proven that they deserve the benefit of the doubt in most cases - they get it. So I'll be cautiously optimistic until there si something else to react to.

Hawk
10-03-2008, 01:27 PM
Well you see it's all a mater of perspective. For instance I think cruising is the most boring thing on the planet. I wouldn't mind if they didn't groom the mountain at all like MRG.

I spent a large amount of years at Sunday River where they groom every thing. I got so fed up with this I moved on.....to SB. Why you may ask? Not becuse of the cruisers. It was the bumps and woods. By the way if you like cruisers SR is the ultimate mountain for that.

So different strokes for different folks.... :wink:

Anyway, the thing I can't figure out is what they are going to actually do to tranform North. Everybody knows the good mogul skiing/skiers are at South. :) :) ....... :wink:

10-03-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm going to offend people that don't like bumps right now so be warned. People who say they don't ski bumps, can't ski bumps. That's the bottom line. Not that I blame them. Like I said, learning to ski bumps on a steep run with huge moguls is not only scary and frustrating, but can be dangerous. Many mountains in the Northeast are at fault here. It's seems 90% of the terrain at most mountains is boring vanilla groomers. If that's all there is, that's all people will learn to ski. Sugarbush's (non)grooming policy is pretty good though. The abundance of ungroomed terrain is why the place is one of my favorites to ski. As you know skiing bumps well is not something you pick up by skiing a few bump runs a day. There's a certain level of dedication required and normally the love of bumps is a natural result of putting in that time. This approach will give folks a chance to progress at their own pace and ability level. I applaud it.
I'm not offended, but I think this is well off base. Now maybe I'm not typical, but I choose not to ski bumps that often b/c I just have a lot more fun spending my time on other types of terrain. There are always exceptions, particularly in the Spring or after a recent snowfall, but that's about it.
I'm talking more about the self-proclaimed "expert" skier. You know the guy that says, "I ski black diamonds." When that guy says, "I don't ski bumps," it's not because he's opting not to; it's because he can't. I suspect you're probably more the guy that has graduated from bumps and now prefers the slackcountry. You guys are affectionately known as "powder snobs" by bumpaholics like me. ;)



Well you see it's all a mater of perspective. For instance I think cruising is the most boring thing on the planet. I wouldn't mind if they didn't groom the mountain at all like MRG.
We're kindred spirits. :lol:

Hardbooter
10-03-2008, 02:42 PM
"slackcountry" I like it. I think I've been there.

HowieT2
10-03-2008, 02:48 PM
I'm going to offend people that don't like bumps right now so be warned. People who say they don't ski bumps, can't ski bumps. That's the bottom line. Not that I blame them. Like I said, learning to ski bumps on a steep run with huge moguls is not only scary and frustrating, but can be dangerous. Many mountains in the Northeast are at fault here. It's seems 90% of the terrain at most mountains is boring vanilla groomers. If that's all there is, that's all people will learn to ski. Sugarbush's (non)grooming policy is pretty good though. The abundance of ungroomed terrain is why the place is one of my favorites to ski. As you know skiing bumps well is not something you pick up by skiing a few bump runs a day. There's a certain level of dedication required and normally the love of bumps is a natural result of putting in that time. This approach will give folks a chance to progress at their own pace and ability level. I applaud it.
I'm not offended, but I think this is well off base. Now maybe I'm not typical, but I choose not to ski bumps that often b/c I just have a lot more fun spending my time on other types of terrain. There are always exceptions, particularly in the Spring or after a recent snowfall, but that's about it.

I'll reserve judgement until I hear the details on how and where this policy will be implemented. I'm wary of this at the outset, as ME's biggest asset is its world class cruising terrain, IMO. It would be a shame to diminish the availability of same for the benefit of the tiny minority of skiers who enjoy bumps. Just take a look at the demographics folks - the snow sliding population is increasingly older, and increasingly on a single plank - two groups that generally avoid bumps for very good reasons.

Where could they be talking about? I would think they will want to avoid the key cruising runs of Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser, Northway, Mainstream and Which Way. Can't do it on Straight Shot for obvious reasons. Inverness and Brambles are off-limits due to GMVS. I guess Cracker Jack would be a candidate, along with sugar Run or something. The one that really comes to mind is Upper Lookin Good. It's got a nice even pitch and doesn't see a huge amount of traffic anyway. I suspect that Semi-tough will be in the mix as well, as it is an ideal candidate due to the individual pitches separated by flatter sections where you can get in 10-15 turns and then take a break before plunging into the next section. Maybe far skiers' left or right of Lower Elbow too? Like I said, I need to hear the details before an informed response can be made. SB has proven that they deserve the benefit of the doubt in most cases - they get it. So I'll be cautiously optimistic until there si something else to react to.

I'd think Northstar and/or Lower Northstar would be a candidate too. The latter could be done without eliminating a green route down to the NRE and GMX.

Tin Woodsman
10-03-2008, 02:56 PM
I'd think Northstar and/or Lower Northstar would be a candidate too. The latter could be done without eliminating a green route down to the NRE and GMX.

How so? Unless you're talking about the short little piece below the cut-off to Mainstream, which would sort of defeat the purpose anyway b/c it's tiny, I don't get it. Also, I would think that SB would want to keep as many avenues as possible into Times Sq there, b/c forcing those who don't want bumps from Lwr Northstar back onto Mainstream or the bottom of Cruiser isn't ideal.

madhavok
10-03-2008, 02:57 PM
Sounds like anyone who already purchased a ME only season pass just had the rug pulled out from under them. Say goodbye to the classic cruisers & say hello to novice and intermediate moguls. Although on the plus side maybe ME tickets will be cheaper since that Cats will be running less.

ski_resort_observer
10-03-2008, 03:03 PM
Sounds like anyone who already purchased a ME only season pass just had the rug pulled out from under them. Say goodbye to the classic cruisers & say hello to novice and intermediate moguls. Although on the plus side maybe ME tickets will be cheaper since that Cats will be running less.

total horsesh*t

HowieT2
10-03-2008, 03:24 PM
I'd think Northstar and/or Lower Northstar would be a candidate too. The latter could be done without eliminating a green route down to the NRE and GMX.

How so? Unless you're talking about the short little piece below the cut-off to Mainstream, which would sort of defeat the purpose anyway b/c it's tiny, I don't get it. Also, I would think that SB would want to keep as many avenues as possible into Times Sq there, b/c forcing those who don't want bumps from Lwr Northstar back onto Mainstream or the bottom of Cruiser isn't ideal.

That's what I'm talking about and it's not that small. It's usually pretty clear since most people take Mainstream and it's one of the only areas that allows for a viable alternate route.

Tin Woodsman
10-03-2008, 03:38 PM
Sounds like anyone who already purchased a ME only season pass just had the rug pulled out from under them. Say goodbye to the classic cruisers & say hello to novice and intermediate moguls. Although on the plus side maybe ME tickets will be cheaper since that Cats will be running less.

total horsesh*t

+1

Tin Woodsman
10-03-2008, 03:39 PM
I'd think Northstar and/or Lower Northstar would be a candidate too. The latter could be done without eliminating a green route down to the NRE and GMX.

How so? Unless you're talking about the short little piece below the cut-off to Mainstream, which would sort of defeat the purpose anyway b/c it's tiny, I don't get it. Also, I would think that SB would want to keep as many avenues as possible into Times Sq there, b/c forcing those who don't want bumps from Lwr Northstar back onto Mainstream or the bottom of Cruiser isn't ideal.

That's what I'm talking about and it's not that small. It's usually pretty clear since most people take Mainstream and it's one of the only areas that allows for a viable alternate route.

Maybe it's just me being selfish, b/c that stretch is always uncrowded and usually has good snow late into a weekend day.

jwt
10-03-2008, 03:43 PM
North bumps? Some of the best in the resort - because the're skied more than CR and have S/M for earlier base.

Bravo/Encore - only groomed to save base. Exterm/Upper FIS/left side Cliffs, then you have au natural Tumbler.Hammerhead - what more does one need for bumps? I'll take 'em all but not everyone wants to pound all the way down, all day long. Do we really need more? I'm just hoping none of these are those man-made bumps like in feeder-land ski hills.

Cruisers even have the sides for those of us who want a tight, straight line, trees on one side and soft snow that everyone pushes from the middle of trail.

Then, if we want even more bumps there are all those tree runs, which always turn into bump runs within days of opening. Sometimes hours.

I'm not a cruiser and don't have those type of skis to reduce chatter at 40 MPH, but they too need terrain.

And, to top it off, onlyevery third chair is full, most times the place is empty, so we got the capacity to tell them we have a bump mountain with out changing anything.
Tha's gotta be the reason - pull and spread - perception is reality - if that works - great - it's a big enough mountain to tale 30% more traffic- as long as it is spread over the two hills - without causing any pain in line.

HowieT2
10-03-2008, 03:47 PM
I'd think Northstar and/or Lower Northstar would be a candidate too. The latter could be done without eliminating a green route down to the NRE and GMX.

How so? Unless you're talking about the short little piece below the cut-off to Mainstream, which would sort of defeat the purpose anyway b/c it's tiny, I don't get it. Also, I would think that SB would want to keep as many avenues as possible into Times Sq there, b/c forcing those who don't want bumps from Lwr Northstar back onto Mainstream or the bottom of Cruiser isn't ideal.

That's what I'm talking about and it's not that small. It's usually pretty clear since most people take Mainstream and it's one of the only areas that allows for a viable alternate route.

Maybe it's just me being selfish, b/c that stretch is always uncrowded and usually has good snow late into a weekend day.

Agreed. I like doing exterminator and then cruising down Northstar making a sharp left where Lower Northstar and Mainstream split.

Bubba
10-03-2008, 03:50 PM
Lostone, you missed the point again. I'm never said that there aren't enough areas with mogul trails. The point is, there's nowhere to learn. That's the big difference.

It's not a banishing of groomers, or a desire to push out folks who want to ski groomers. It's a desire to help bring back a sport that once had a huge following, and for which a demand still exists. You know why you don't see people in the bumps? Because they're intimidated by the terrain. That's why there needs to be a serious offering of moguls on intermediate terrain. Does that mean Rim, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way (not going to be terrain park, AFAIK), Northstar, Etc. will all be allowed to bump up? No. You may find portions of intermediate runs with moguls.

I assure you you aren't looking at a case where every run on the mountain is wall to wall bumps. But there will be more, and some will be on lower pitch trails.

Come up to Ellen this season, Shadyjay. I'd love to ski with you for the day, and get your opinion after you get to ride the mountain. I think you're putting words in my mouth here. It was never said here or in the article that the whole mountain was going to be moguls. It said the focus is going to be realigned toward moguls and all of the natural aspects of skiing.

And lostone, while I think you've brought up some valid points, I don't see things quite the same way. If you think for a minute that anyone in the operation places a lesser value on folks who just want to ski the cruisers, you're wrong. I think all of us on this forum know that they are a substantial portion of the paying public. No doubt.

But this is a segment of the market that has been ignored for too long. Sure, say what you will... there's plenty of bump runs. But that's not enough. Attention must be paid, proper instruction must be made available (and I don't mean PSIA's bump method). Bump skiers are people too :wink:

Why don't many recreational skiers ski bumps? Because they "can't" or because they're afraid. Can that be changed? Yup.

I'm stoked for this season. There will be terrain for everyone. You want cruisers? You'll have them. You want trees? You'll have them. You want bumps? You'll have them. You'll even be able to learn!

It's going to be good, and I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

So...
If you're not going to teach flexion and extension, absorption, pole swing, relaxation, focusing down the hill, skiing the sides of the bump, skiing the back of the bump, skiing the top of the bump, etc, etc, what are you going to be teaching?

BushMogulMaster
10-03-2008, 03:53 PM
Lostone, you missed the point again. I'm never said that there aren't enough areas with mogul trails. The point is, there's nowhere to learn. That's the big difference.

It's not a banishing of groomers, or a desire to push out folks who want to ski groomers. It's a desire to help bring back a sport that once had a huge following, and for which a demand still exists. You know why you don't see people in the bumps? Because they're intimidated by the terrain. That's why there needs to be a serious offering of moguls on intermediate terrain. Does that mean Rim, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way (not going to be terrain park, AFAIK), Northstar, Etc. will all be allowed to bump up? No. You may find portions of intermediate runs with moguls.

I assure you you aren't looking at a case where every run on the mountain is wall to wall bumps. But there will be more, and some will be on lower pitch trails.

Come up to Ellen this season, Shadyjay. I'd love to ski with you for the day, and get your opinion after you get to ride the mountain. I think you're putting words in my mouth here. It was never said here or in the article that the whole mountain was going to be moguls. It said the focus is going to be realigned toward moguls and all of the natural aspects of skiing.

And lostone, while I think you've brought up some valid points, I don't see things quite the same way. If you think for a minute that anyone in the operation places a lesser value on folks who just want to ski the cruisers, you're wrong. I think all of us on this forum know that they are a substantial portion of the paying public. No doubt.

But this is a segment of the market that has been ignored for too long. Sure, say what you will... there's plenty of bump runs. But that's not enough. Attention must be paid, proper instruction must be made available (and I don't mean PSIA's bump method). Bump skiers are people too :wink:

Why don't many recreational skiers ski bumps? Because they "can't" or because they're afraid. Can that be changed? Yup.

I'm stoked for this season. There will be terrain for everyone. You want cruisers? You'll have them. You want trees? You'll have them. You want bumps? You'll have them. You'll even be able to learn!

It's going to be good, and I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

So...
If you're not going to teach flexion and extension, absorption, pole swing, relaxation, focusing down the hill, skiing the sides of the bump, skiing the back of the bump, skiing the top of the bump, etc, etc, what are you going to be teaching?

I'm not running the program, and I'm not the spokesman. I can only speak to what I learned writing the article.

You'll have to wait for official feedback from the mountain on what the plan for instruction will be.

I can't get into the PSIA argument here. Read all of the threads about it on mogulskiing.net, and you can choose to agree to disagree, but that argument has no place here.

BushMogulMaster
10-03-2008, 04:10 PM
For all of you really worried about a lack of cruisers, let me give you my personal opinion (remember... I'm just mogulskiing.net, I don't speak for Sugarbush!). I sure as heck hope we don't let bumps grow Elbow, Rim Rum, Cruiser, and Upper Northstar, for example. I'm a groomer at Mt. Ellen this winter! I need job security!

Of course, I'm also a fantatic bump skier, so I want bumps. But we'll definitely have cruisers. We better, or I won't have a job!

Tin Woodsman
10-03-2008, 05:35 PM
Maybe it's just me being selfish, b/c that stretch is always uncrowded and usually has good snow late into a weekend day.

Agreed. I like doing exterminator and then cruising down Northstar making a sharp left where Lower Northstar and Mainstream split.[/quote]
Exactly. Sharp left turn over the edge, maybe catch a little air in the process, cruise down at Mach 2 and make a hard right into the flats. Good times.

Is it winter yet?

Windshield Ski Bum
10-03-2008, 06:48 PM
I applaud SBs attempt to bring back bum skiing, but you only have to go to MRG to find fabulous moguls.

We have a family theory (credit to my daughter Abby) that people "don't ski moguls" because they can't. It has little to do with their physical strength or experience, but more to do with their ability to see, and think in three dimensions. (spacial relations)

You simply can't ski a three dimensional line if you only see two dimensions.

It is known that more than half of the population only sees in two dimensions. Also, there is a higher percentage of these two dimensional people in the female side of the equation.

People who only see in two dimensions have trouble assembling toys, tying knots, reading blueprints, etc.

3D people have no trouble with these tasks, and usually are the "go to guy" to fix or build things.

We are all different, and all have different talents. It is also interesting that us 3D people don't even know that the rest of the world doesn't see what we do, but if you can't see a line in all those bumps, how can you be expected to ski them well.

We all know some great skiers, maybe even accomplished racers, who "don't ski bumps" My guess is none of these folks are carpenter's, draftsman , plumbers, mechanics, etc. Our theory is that when they look at the mogul field they don't see a line, just a bunch of obstacles. It would be like me trying to read music. (Just not happening).

It's not that 2D people can't learn to ski bumps, It is just going to be a lot harder, and not a lot of fun.

I am interested in what other mogul hounds (and non mogul skiers) think about Abby's theory.

Michael Matola
10-03-2008, 07:01 PM
What about guys like me? I'm a snowboarder who *wants* to learn to ride the bumps, but I can't seem to get it worked out on my own and I haven't had much luck getting instruction.

Like I mentioned in the similar thread on Epicski, I would be interested to know if Sugarbush now plans to offer (better) mogul instruction for snowboarders. I've taken lessons in mogul riding at several resorts, Sugarbush included, and I've generally been underwhelmed.

Also -- they're not planning on moving the park from Sunny D are they?

HowieT2
10-03-2008, 07:06 PM
Maybe it's just me being selfish, b/c that stretch is always uncrowded and usually has good snow late into a weekend day.

Agreed. I like doing exterminator and then cruising down Northstar making a sharp left where Lower Northstar and Mainstream split.
Exactly. Sharp left turn over the edge, maybe catch a little air in the process, cruise down at Mach 2 and make a hard right into the flats. Good times.

Is it winter yet?[/quote]

October is the tough month to make it through. Once I make it to november with my birthday and election day, I'm in the home stretch.

Lostone
10-03-2008, 07:19 PM
Still I feel there is a growing demand for terrain like this.

1) Anyone seen any actual marketing information saying this? Everything I've seen has been going the other way. :?

b) Anyone ever really looked at the amount of skiers on the bumps on Spring Fling, when it is done half and half? I see the vast majority of people on the groomed half for most of the trail.


Like I say, I'm not trying to run the place, but part of my job is to approach people having trouble on terrain. I have been assured that lower part of Northstar, the first part of Pushover and the first and last part of Lower Pushover were not green. I have also been assured that Elbow and Downspout were not blue. I have been asked by someone on Murphy's, how someone can get to a blue.

Truth be told, we have a tough little mountain. I don't say this as a problem, as I've been known to make a turn or two, there. I'll find a way to make my way down the hill. :wink:

I just worry about funneling a greater amount of people onto a narrow section of trail so that the rest can be set up for people that aren't there.



As for the question as to who is too old to ski bumps... Daevious is certainly too old. Bubba isn't, but he's too tied to that whole PSIA thing. :lol:

Anyone here know who John and Barbara King are? Anyone know Rich Jones? :wink:

BushMogulMaster
10-03-2008, 08:37 PM
Still I feel there is a growing demand for terrain like this.

1) Anyone seen any actual marketing information saying this? Everything I've seen has been going the other way. :?

b) Anyone ever really looked at the amount of skiers on the bumps on Spring Fling, when it is done half and half? I see the vast majority of people on the groomed half for most of the trail.


Like I say, I'm not trying to run the place, but part of my job is to approach people having trouble on terrain. I have been assured that lower part of Northstar, the first part of Pushover and the first and last part of Lower Pushover were not green. I have also been assured that Elbow and Downspout were not blue. I have been asked by someone on Murphy's, how someone can get to a blue.

Truth be told, we have a tough little mountain. I don't say this as a problem, as I've been known to make a turn or two, there. I'll find a way to make my way down the hill. :wink:

I just worry about funneling a greater amount of people onto a narrow section of trail so that the rest can be set up for people that aren't there.



As for the question as to who is too old to ski bumps... Daevious is certainly too old. Bubba isn't, but he's too tied to that whole PSIA thing. :lol:

Anyone here know who John and Barbara King are? Anyone know Rich Jones? :wink:

I know John and Barbara well, and enjoyed some bumps on the top of Organgrinder with them a couple seasons ago. Great folks, truly capture the spirit of the mountain. And they can still ski with the best of them!


Lostone, go into the season with an open mind and make your own assessment based on how it turns out. That's what we all have to do! Remember, the marketing stats are going to show it your way because people don't have a chance to learn how to enjoy moguls without fumbling around or hurting themselves! Once they have a place to learn, keep in mind that that status quo may change, and you might need to make a slight adjustment to that paradigm!

Just a thought as a proponent of moguls, and having been contacted countless times by folks who used to hate bumps until they learned how to ski them (either from Dan DiPiro's "Everything the Instructors Never Taught You About Skiing Moguls," or from my technique guide on mogulskiing.net, or from camps with Mogul Logic and Momentum) with some competency and fluidity. Granted, that takes time. But you can get down the basics quickly to avoid harm and frustration, and then work as you go on perfecting your technique.

shadyjay
10-03-2008, 08:50 PM
Wow - this thread exploded since the other day. I decided to drive down to CT for a couple days to see my parents and now i'm seeing the pics of the mountain with snow on it. If it was a foot dump then I'd be pissed, but you only have one family.

Anyways...


BMM... I bought my Mt Ellen+ pass for this season the second they went on sale back in April, so I'll defintely be there this season, most likely 2-3x a week. I'm only in Waterbury after all, so I don't have far to come. I was at ME some 15-20 times this past season and really advanced my skills by venturing off the cruisers and giving Tumbler, Hammerhead, the Cliffs, Encore, and Lower FIS a shot. I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more... except a Switchback at the bar. Granted, the day we did those runs, it was in the 60s and the snow and bumps were soft and forgiving, though I didn't bail. In both the March and April days, I had people with me to push my limits. If I'm solo, I stick to what I know. After all, if I crash and die, there's noone I'm with waiting for me and wondering. So if you want to ride with me for a run or so, hollah.

Hawk... so you've seen me ride, eh? I appreciate the comments that I'm a good boarder. If anything, I'm having a blast out there and it gives me something to do. Summertime, I'm bored as hell.


Now back to the thread.....


My previous biggest fear in moguls was the fact that all of them were double diamond or diamond runs that all seemed 'really steep'. So if there were bumps on easier trails, then I'd feel more confident working my way up. I believe this was said some pages ago in this thread. 1/2 bumping some trails that have been mentioned here, such as Elbow or Northstar wouldn't be too bad. They should keep the courdoroy on Rim Run and Lookin' Good and S/S. Crackerjack hardly has anyone on it, but its flat from SBE to the Sunny D crossover, so not really a good place for bumps. The more and more I think about it, the less and less I'm stressing over it. Maybe it was seeing those pics in the other thread about the first snowfall. The season is knocking on the door, and I'm ready and waiting... since 4/20, my last day out.

See y'all on the mountain soon!

skiladi
10-03-2008, 09:13 PM
I threw out my short ballet skis and long poles in 1980! C'mon Pat...this is just your thesis, right? I want to ride some sweet stuff at Ellen and ski some bumps on Stein's with you next April. But really , I think we have enough bumps at the 'bush unless you can do something like 3-D at Sunday River. That's where they let the 2 yolds loose. But I've seen 3yolds at Castlerock and they rip.
I have some buds who really enjoy the ME cruising so I would hate to see that change. ; }

BushMogulMaster
10-03-2008, 09:20 PM
I threw out my short ballet skis and long poles in 1980! C'mon Pat...this is just your thesis, right?

Nope, it's just my article on my website! Not my idea, not my mountain, not my call. I like it, though! Hence, the article.

By the way, if you hadn't thrown out your ballet skis, I would have bought them from you. No joke. :D

groomer
10-04-2008, 05:39 AM
I'd like to give my crusty old groomer's point of view. I think people are getting a little too excited. This doesn't mean ALL of mt ellen will be bumped up. In fact, some of the pitches on the mountain lend themselves to having some bumps left in them. Lower northstar has had a nice little bump line on skiers right of it for the diamond dogs. Did any body see the little bumpline the kids built on snowflake? (The little trail as you exit the alley from lower FIS.) I don't see the entire mountain being left to bump up, in fact, We could probably put a couple of sweet little bump lines here and there and most people would hardly notice. When the freeze/thaw cycle creates conditon that are dangerous for patrol to rescue injured skiers, everything will probably get groomed. (Patrol can't save lives if they slide past you on the trail!)

CHEERS and see you on the hill!

castlerock
10-04-2008, 10:19 AM
This thread is a riot! I have to put my $.02 in.

This is much ado about nothing. (the fear and loathing part anyway). More low angle bump terrain is a great thing! At North a good portion of the terrain is "the same" Northstar, Cruiser, Whichway could be the same trail, Same pitch of the mountain, wide, (some would say boring) etc. Bumping up some of that is probably the idea. Big Deal.

I also sense the pent-up expectation of the impending season contributing to the fervor. The snow looked great on the hills driving south into Waitsfield on 100 yesterday morning.

It is coming.

BushMogulMaster
10-04-2008, 10:48 AM
This thread is a riot! I have to put my $.02 in.

This is much ado about nothing. (the fear and loathing part anyway). More low angle bump terrain is a great thing! At North a good portion of the terrain is "the same" Northstar, Cruiser, Whichway could be the same trail, Same pitch of the mountain, wide, (some would say boring) etc. Bumping up some of that is probably the idea. Big Deal.

I also sense the pent-up expectation of the impending season contributing to the fervor. The snow looked great on the hills driving south into Waitsfield on 100 yesterday morning.

It is coming.

If there was a thumbs up emoticon, it would be here in place of this random boring text. Good post, CR.

SKItheBOAT
10-06-2008, 06:07 PM
I think this move is a great step. Every mountain needs an identity to grow. To all you cruisers out there i would not fear. This is the ski industry, money talks and they will not forget about you. Can't wait to see how they lay it out.

BMM- do you know if there is going to be a course with jumps open to the public? Also I noticed you are tied to the ski industry and currently attend college in Colorado, could it be at CMC?

win
10-06-2008, 07:04 PM
Fear not! That's all I'll say, so wait and see!

BushMogulMaster
10-06-2008, 07:14 PM
BMM- do you know if there is going to be a course with jumps open to the public? Also I noticed you are tied to the ski industry and currently attend college in Colorado, could it be at CMC?

I don't know about a course. I suppose it's a possibility?

I do indeed attend CMC (Leadville). I graduate in May. I'll be doing my internship at Mt. Ellen grooming (Nov through end of Mar).

10-07-2008, 11:21 AM
BMM- do you know if there is going to be a course with jumps open to the public?
That would be cool. I never quite understood why kickers in a bump course at most ski areas are always blocked; if the course is even left for the general public, that is. Seems kinda silly when you have giant big air jumps in the terrain parks.

Dawn Patrol
10-07-2008, 12:45 PM
I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more...

I'm glad you're enjoying the bumps! One big pet peeve I have though is when people say they've conquered something. Sorry, it just really bothers me for some reason. I've skied every single run on Lincoln and Mellon and just about every inch in between countless times and yet, my hardest fall last year was on Sunrise just before the Castlerock Connection. I just like to respect the mountain, no matter where I am on it. If ma nature decides she's going to smack you down, she will, be it on a mountain, river, ocean, green circle or double black EX. So treat her with respect!

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

Yard Sale
10-07-2008, 01:50 PM
I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more...

I'm glad you're enjoying the bumps! One big pet peeve I have though is when people say they've conquered something. Sorry, it just really bothers me for some reason. I've skied every single run on Lincoln and Mellon and just about every inch in between countless times and yet, my hardest fall last year was on Sunrise just before the Castlerock Connection. I just like to respect the mountain, no matter where I am on it. If ma nature decides she's going to smack you down, she will, be it on a mountain, river, ocean, green circle or double black EX. So treat her with respect!

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

Or maybe the guy was just felt good about his accomplishment. Lighten up Francis.

castlerock
10-07-2008, 02:01 PM
...touch me or my stuff.....


Lighten up Francis.

SKItheBOAT
10-07-2008, 06:33 PM
I do indeed attend CMC (Leadville). I graduate in May. I'll be doing my internship at Mt. Ellen grooming (Nov through end of Mar).[/quote

Small world, I graduated from the steamboat campus with a ski bus degree. They've got a cool program there...I am sure Leadville is the same.

BushMogulMaster
10-07-2008, 06:39 PM
Small world, I graduated from the steamboat campus with a ski bus degree. They've got a cool program there...I am sure Leadville is the same.

It definitely is a small world! Leadville is fun as well, just not quite close enough to real skiing. But the program is fantastic, very comprehensive in its focus on mountain operations.

SKItheBOAT
10-07-2008, 06:45 PM
[quote=SKItheBOAT]


It definitely is a small world! Leadville is fun as well, just not quite close enough to real skiing. But the program is fantastic, very comprehensive in its focus on mountain operations.

Good to hear. Mabye I'll see ya round the mountain this winter

BushMogulMaster
10-07-2008, 06:48 PM
Good to hear. Mabye I'll see ya round the mountain this winter

Certainly. I'll be skiing Mt. Ellen almost every day this season. Send me a PM anytime you want to take a run. Or just look for the guy in the bumps in a mogulskiing.net coat!

chuck
10-08-2008, 07:37 AM
BMM - great site you've got on bump skiing. I thoroughly enjoyed your technique section, and have printed it out for my orthopedic surgeon, who has advised me that after 30 years of bump skiing I should give it a rest.

two more weeks on crutches, back on Rumble by January.

Hawk
10-08-2008, 01:49 PM
Hey BMM, I checked out your site. Lots of cool stuff.

One thing.... You call yourself on that site the "Bush's number one zipper-liner". :shock: Pretty tall claim don't you think? :wink:

BushMogulMaster
10-08-2008, 02:51 PM
Hey BMM, I checked out your site. Lots of cool stuff.

One thing.... You call yourself on that site the "Bush's number one zipper-liner". :shock: Pretty tall claim don't you think? :wink:

Nope... I call myself "the Bush's resident zipper-liner," not the number one! Babic is the Bush's number one zipperliner, followed by two or three other guys on the hill. I'm getting there, but I've still got a lot to learn.

Hawk
10-08-2008, 04:04 PM
You still have a lot to learn???? Then instead of BMM maybe we should call you BPL.......Bush Padawan Learner... :wink:

Actually I think your chewin gum........Ah, Bubba

BushMogulMaster
10-08-2008, 05:13 PM
You still have a lot to learn???? Then instead of BMM maybe we should call you BPL.......Bush Padawan Learner... :wink:

Actually I think your chewin gum........Ah, Bubba

Hmm, if we're going with the Star Wars system, I'd have to say I qualify as a Jedi Mogul Master, but I'm not a member of the council yet :wink:

David Babic would be a council member, whereas veterans like Chuck Martin might even qualify as a Jedi Mogul Grand Master (Yoda-like).

:D

shadyjay
10-08-2008, 06:01 PM
I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more...

I'm glad you're enjoying the bumps! One big pet peeve I have though is when people say they've conquered something. Sorry, it just really bothers me for some reason. I've skied every single run on Lincoln and Mellon and just about every inch in between countless times and yet, my hardest fall last year was on Sunrise just before the Castlerock Connection. I just like to respect the mountain, no matter where I am on it. If ma nature decides she's going to smack you down, she will, be it on a mountain, river, ocean, green circle or double black EX. So treat her with respect!

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.


I referred to conquering more of a "survival" rather than a "mastering". I used to look at runs like Organgrinder, Ripcord, Spills, etc and say to myself "that'll be the day". I still feel that way when I look down FIS or Black Diamond. And I understand that doing a run with soft spring bumps or groomed is not the same as doing those runs in mid winter conditions of powder/packed powder, whatever. On that warm day in April, I needed that boost to get me down so I could #1 - progress to the next level, and #2 - be more comfortable to do those runs in mid winter.

I never said I was an expert on any run, especially the diamond bump runs. But every year I feel I'm getting better and better.

10-09-2008, 09:55 AM
I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more...

I'm glad you're enjoying the bumps! One big pet peeve I have though is when people say they've conquered something. Sorry, it just really bothers me for some reason. I've skied every single run on Lincoln and Mellon and just about every inch in between countless times and yet, my hardest fall last year was on Sunrise just before the Castlerock Connection. I just like to respect the mountain, no matter where I am on it. If ma nature decides she's going to smack you down, she will, be it on a mountain, river, ocean, green circle or double black EX. So treat her with respect!

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.


I referred to conquering more of a "survival" rather than a "mastering". I used to look at runs like Organgrinder, Ripcord, Spills, etc and say to myself "that'll be the day". I still feel that way when I look down FIS or Black Diamond. And I understand that doing a run with soft spring bumps or groomed is not the same as doing those runs in mid winter conditions of powder/packed powder, whatever. On that warm day in April, I needed that boost to get me down so I could #1 - progress to the next level, and #2 - be more comfortable to do those runs in mid winter.

I never said I was an expert on any run, especially the diamond bump runs. But every year I feel I'm getting better and better.

Don't sweat it, shady. We all have our mental checklists. Conquering a run that you thought you never would ski is what keeps you coming back. I say good on ya!

gone.skiing
10-10-2008, 06:55 AM
I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more...

I'm glad you're enjoying the bumps! One big pet peeve I have though is when people say they've conquered something. Sorry, it just really bothers me for some reason. I've skied every single run on Lincoln and Mellon and just about every inch in between countless times and yet, my hardest fall last year was on Sunrise just before the Castlerock Connection. I just like to respect the mountain, no matter where I am on it. If ma nature decides she's going to smack you down, she will, be it on a mountain, river, ocean, green circle or double black EX. So treat her with respect!

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

Always carry first aid, food and water before trying Castlerock Connection, never know how long you might be out there.

Dawn Patrol
10-10-2008, 07:30 AM
I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more...

I'm glad you're enjoying the bumps! One big pet peeve I have though is when people say they've conquered something. Sorry, it just really bothers me for some reason. I've skied every single run on Lincoln and Mellon and just about every inch in between countless times and yet, my hardest fall last year was on Sunrise just before the Castlerock Connection. I just like to respect the mountain, no matter where I am on it. If ma nature decides she's going to smack you down, she will, be it on a mountain, river, ocean, green circle or double black EX. So treat her with respect!

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

Always carry first aid, food and water before trying Castlerock Connection, never know how long you might be out there.


Absolutely, I never enter the CC without a bivy and atleast three days supply of food and water.

HowieT2
10-10-2008, 10:03 AM
I survived them all, though I was quite beat at the bottom. In early March, some friends dragged me up to Castlerock, and Middle Earth was conquered. Then in April, I met up with a few people from work, and by the end of the day, I had checked off the Mall, Ripcord, Paradise , Spillsville (all mogul runs) from my list. To date, I have not yet tried Lift Line, Rumble, or Stein's, but after the 4 bumpers I listed above in one day, I couldn't take any more...

I'm glad you're enjoying the bumps! One big pet peeve I have though is when people say they've conquered something. Sorry, it just really bothers me for some reason. I've skied every single run on Lincoln and Mellon and just about every inch in between countless times and yet, my hardest fall last year was on Sunrise just before the Castlerock Connection. I just like to respect the mountain, no matter where I am on it. If ma nature decides she's going to smack you down, she will, be it on a mountain, river, ocean, green circle or double black EX. So treat her with respect!

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

Always carry first aid, food and water before trying Castlerock Connection, never know how long you might be out there.


Absolutely, I never enter the CC without a bivy and atleast three days supply of food and water.

LOL- I like to take a food break at the bridge after I come out of the woods there.

shadyjay
02-04-2009, 06:30 PM
Well, finally made it to Mt Ellen today, and remembered this thread/topic from "a while back".

From what I've deduced, Watson, is that several runs at Mt Ellen which were groomed are being left to "bump up", perhaps this is the "concentration on bumps" mentioned in the beginning of the season. Last year, we saw a lot of grooming on The Cliffs and Lookin' Good, with a terrain park on Which Way. After today's [very cold] visit, these trails were all bumped. I check the trail reports daily (because we always get asked "what's groomed" in the liftline), and I don't believe I've seen The Cliffs or Which Way being groomed at all this season... same with LG. For consistant grooming, look towards Panorama, Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser, Northstar, Inverness, and the base area greens.

vonski
02-04-2009, 07:06 PM
I noticed this past weekend the same thing about the grooming. I thought Which Way was nice without being groomed. Those are good bumps to learn on. Kinda missed the speed of Cliffs with it not being groomed on the one side but the snow was nice and soft all weekend.

summitchallenger
02-08-2009, 05:50 PM
Just to follow up on this thread. There really has not been much of a noticeable difference at Ellen this year. There are bumps on Which Way and Lookin' Good now. I skied them over the past week and they are good. Otherwise, no big difference. I think it is tough to dedicate more of the blue terrain to bumps because if you look at the maps there are only two groomed routes down at each point on the mountain and they get hammered.

With the fall line and weird pitch, Which Way is better as a bump run and it looked like they had blown some snow on it. The bumps on Lookin'Good were nice as well.

That said, Elbow and Rim Run have been consistently good. The bumps on Tumbler and Hammerhead last weekend were good as well...and Lower FIS has been skiing great. I am glad that we got FIS going again...it is skiing well.

All in all, it has been a very good season on Ellen side. I have spent a good amount of my season there.

vonski
02-08-2009, 07:40 PM
I only skied Saturday at Ellen this weekend as I had things to do today. But the conditions were awesome. I was having lunch in Glen house and over heard someone saying the conditions were so much better at Ellen than South. The snow was still soft and awesome. Spent the day Saturday, basically in the woods though. Exterminator woods were sweet. The warmth of the day was interesting though. After Northridge went on windhold late in the day. I went up Summit for one last run. The winds coming over the top of the mountain were incredible. Standing on the top of Ex woods the wind was completely howling 20 feet above my head and absolutely calm were I was standing. It was like being behind a big truck on the highway. Anyways, made our way through Ex woods and then across to Brambles. The snow was awesome and dry up top, but due to the temps the lower half of the mountan on Brambles was cement/mashed potatoes. It made for some real work on the last run, but still great. Also the wind took the snow out of the trees on the upper part of the mountain and I was finding great fresh lines all day. Ellen has got to be the sweetest deal on earth. Oh yeah no real lines all day until Northridge went on windhold. :D Oh yeah back to the point. The bumps on Which way have been awesome as well. Also how did the lower half of the mountain do, did it set up hard and crust with the warm to cold or did it fare okay?