Win Sets the (Paper of) Record Straight on GSL and GH Lodge

[bill-now]

Form the N.Y. Times, March 16, 2008...

"At Sugarbush resort in Warren, Vt., about 60 miles south, an EB-5 program is being used to finance four new buildings. The first — a 40,000-square-foot guest services center, containing stores, equipment rental facilities and space for children’s programs — will break ground this spring. Three condominium hotels will follow, beginning in 2009."

Full article at: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/realestate/commercial/16sqft.html?_r=1&ref=commercial&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

I wonder if Win is aware of this? :wink:

[madhavok]

So the GSL will break ground this spring? :shock:

[gone.skiing]

Seems like there is a little competition for "most informed" between NY TImes and skimrv.com. This could be a tight race.

[Tin Woodsman]

My money is on SkiMRV and not "the paper of record".

[shadyjay]

Perhaps I'm a little biased, but the NY Times seems to do a good job......or at least they did with me a few years ago.....
http://www.shadyjay.com/images/tattoo-nyt.jpg

[win]

This article was never fact checked with us or EB-5! I am not breaking ground on the Guest Services Lodge this summer. I am not happy with the design and the placement, and this is too important an effort to not get absolutely correct. We plan to do it in the Spring of 2009 in a different location. Instead, we plan to expand the Gatehouse by building out the lower level of the Castlerock pub and having a deck overhead. We will put in a hood so we can grill, and we will also expand the amount of boot storage by building an extra bay on the west side of the second floot. I think this will add 80 -120 seats and almost double the storage area. More later!

ps: The Valley House lodge will live another year!

[boze]

Really appreciate the direct update, Win. Those mods sound like a prudent and effective approach. Now how about that fire pit? Pretty please w/ sugar on top??

Memo to the NYT: check your facts at least once if not twice.

[Tin Woodsman]

This article was never fact checked with us or EB-5! I am not breaking ground on the Guest Services Lodge this summer. I am not happy with the design and the placement, and this is too important an effort to not get absolutely correct. We plan to do it in the Spring of 2009 in a different location.
Any ideas as to where this will go now? I presume a little further to the Northeast near the base of the Village Double? Regardless, whatever the various reasons driving it, getting it right is cearly the key here. You're right - it IS too important an effort not to plan and execute meticulously. I had heard that in the currently planned location, you couldn't move daycare out of its current spot due to the requirement to have a modicum of outdoor space for the kiddies. True? If so, moving the GSL slightly away from the core of CB, GH lodge and GH lift would give you the room you need. Though the yeoman efforts of the Johns and everyone else associated with the SB kids/ski and ride programs, I think even the heartiest SB supporter would agree that the logistics with the current set-up aren't ideal. Taking the time to do this right is the correct course, and IMHO will pay huge dividends in the customer experience and bottom line.



Instead, we plan to expand the Gatehouse by building out the lower level of the Castlerock pub and having a deck overhead. We will put in a hood so we can grill, and we will also expand the amount of boot storage by building an extra bay on the west side of the second floot. I think this will add 80 -120 seats and almost double the storage area. More later!

:shock: :shock: :shock:
Wow. A few thoughts - to all those who poo-poohd my incessant carping over the CR pub being too small, eat it. Seriously, this kills so many birds with one stone I don't know where to start.

CR pub is bigger and more usable: check.

Second floor deck with southerly exposure and view of the mountain: check

Maintain the ability to grill outdoors when the weather permits: check

Dramaticaly increase boot/bag storage space: check

Add more seats: check

Curious about adding the bay on the west side. Presume this would be upstairs, and if it's on the west side I guess that means you have to dig further into the hill so people can still transfer from SB side to GH side? Where will the room come from?

I know this isn't much for the self-appointed Core Commanders here, but this is big news for SB and its customers.



ps: The Valley House lodge will live another year!

Good times.

PS - Me four on that fire pit idea. It adds a certain unquantifiable character to a place.

[HowieT2]

This article was never fact checked with us or EB-5! I am not breaking ground on the Guest Services Lodge this summer. I am not happy with the design and the placement, and this is too important an effort to not get absolutely correct. We plan to do it in the Spring of 2009 in a different location. Instead, we plan to expand the Gatehouse by building out the lower level of the Castlerock pub and having a deck overhead. We will put in a hood so we can grill, and we will also expand the amount of boot storage by building an extra bay on the west side of the second floot. I think this will add 80 -120 seats and almost double the storage area. More later!

ps: The Valley House lodge will live another year!

That's great news! Very happy to hear it.

Curious to know what the issues are with the siting of the GSL. I would think placing it further north would spread things out in a good way at the base. Also possibly allow for vehicle access closer in to the GH lift???

[shadyjay]

Curious to know what the issues are with the siting of the GSL. I would think placing it further north would spread things out in a good way at the base. Also possibly allow for vehicle access closer in to the GH lift???

I have recently struck a deal with Win to provide parking for the MTNRYDR in a special underground parking space located directly below the GH lift, complete with a private elevator to the base so that way I don't have to hike up the stairs :D

Seriously though....

Doing it once and right the first time is key, rather than doing it half-arsed and always being disappointed with the end result, wondering what could'a been.
The interim village has been there for a couple of years now and will be able to survive another season.
However, if the VH lodge is remaining for another season, guess that means that the VH lift will remain intact and (???) upgraded to run again?

[skibum1321]

All I can say is that I'm happy that the VH lodge will be around. Why go to GH when you have a practically empty lodge where you can actually get a seat?

[Fourwide]

"Instead, we plan to expand the Gatehouse by building out the lower level of the Castlerock pub"

...to be known henceforth as the "Tin Woodsman Annex"!

[teleo]

Glad to hear some of the things that don't work so well at GH will be addressed. As a newbie regular this season I like the "new" GH lodge and Timbers but have come to realize that some things just don't work right.
A deck - yes! I miss not having a good deck to hang out on in spring!
larger pub - yes! blew it off and went back to the condo many times due to crowds. Timbers less so on the crowds, but even that got crowded at times.
As for the boot storage, since I'm in Sugarbush village I don't have to deal with it, but I can sympathize - looks like a pain to deal with.

As for the the GSL - is there any thought to locating it to integrate Sugarbush "village" with LP "village"? It has always occurred to me that Sugarbush is not big enough to have 2 "villages", and it would seem to make some sense to leverage the existing Sugarbush "village" and integrate it to LP "village" to make a better whole. Maybe utilize some of the space in Sugarbush Village more and not have to build everything new. Provide an experience where one can easily walk from the phase 1 LP parts of a village (Timbers/Claybrook/GH) to phase 2/3 (GSL/lodging), to the old SB village.

Of course I realize this may increase competition between say Chez Henri & Timbers, Mountainside and Bull Wheel, etc. But I think it would make for a nice experience to explore the different parts of a village. Sort of like a small version of what you can do in many places out west and in Europe.

[ski_resort_observer]

As for the the GSL - is there any thought to locating it to integrate Sugarbush "village" with LP "village"? It has always occurred to me that Sugarbush is not big enough to have 2 "villages", and it would seem to make some sense to leverage the existing Sugarbush "village" and integrate it to LP "village" to make a better whole. Maybe utilize some of the space in Sugarbush Village more and not have to build everything new. Provide an experience where one can easily walk from the phase 1 LP parts of a village (Timbers/Claybrook/GH) to phase 2/3 (GSL/lodging), to the old SB village.

Of course I realize this may increase competition between say Chez Henri & Timbers, Mountainside and Bull Wheel, etc. But I think it would make for a nice experience to explore the different parts of a village. Sort of like a small version of what you can do in many places out west and in Europe.

Very good point, unfortunately, Sugarbush, the resort, does own or manage Sugarbush Village so integrating it into the LP base area has been a sticky wicket for many years. It is a worthy goal, as you point out and several attempts have been made in the past but not much progress.

Since the mid-90's I have always dreamed of maybe a nice lighted pathway from SBV to the base area with maybe a nice well maintained outdoor skating rink somewhere in between. The attempt to put in a skating rink by filling in a tennis court next to SHARC was a dismal failure in the late 90's.

The Bush also tried to encourage some commercial growth also in the late 90's with a video/gameroom for the kids and a Sugarbush store. A store/pizza takeout place went in, wasn't enough business, I think it might have lasted 2 years. I am hopeful that in the near future it can happen since with the improvements at the base there is something great to hook up with.

As you can imagine, discussion about buying SBV came up from time to time in the 12 years I have been here. Interestingly, a major piece of SBV was sold a couple of years ago.

BTW, from the day the new Lincoln Peak Village opened in Dec 07 lots of discussion almost on a daily basis has been ongoing about making the new LP base area more customer friendly. Around here improving things, contrary to ASC, is not just a concept or a thread topic in a ski forum, it's a given. I see it everyday.

I know it's still ski season but what the Bush has done in regard to the mountain biking scene has been IMHO nothing short of amazing....hope some of you soft tailers will make it up this year to check it out. John...take a bow.

It's my day off so I'll take a step onto the minefield and take the flames regarding the size of the CP. One thing that alot of people who are quick to shout often that the Bush screwed up by making it too small is very unfair IMHO. Hindsight is 20/20.

When something as big/complicated as a new Gatehouse Lodge, one piece of the new developement is planned no one really knows how busy the bar will be. There is the balance of size regarding when it's going to be busy on weekends/holidays but not very busy during the week. Not sure if the closing of the Blue Tooth was a done deal at this time. This balance is important in planning pretty much any building/space at a seasonal business like a ski resort. Who knew that after a month after opening the Bush would be blessed with good snow from then to present. IIRC the Bush went 100% open on Jan 21, 2007.

With a business with such a small profit margin I think underplanning/undersizing is the wise way then adjust as you go. According to BMM the NSAA reports that the average profit margin at a ski resort is 3%. That's a pretty scary number. So many small improvements have been made basically unseen to the public.

[win]

The add on the second floor for storage I think would be a mirror image of what is there already. Look at the northern entrance and picture a space on the left of the door that is similar to the space on the left of the door. It does not take away any traversing space, but a couple of ski racks and there is plenty of space for them elsewhere. This is really dead space outside now for the most part.

[Yard Sale]

I certainly don't know any of the ins and outs of the ownership/competitive relationship between SBV and SB, but I would think that inducing foot traffic to and from SBV form LP Base could only net in the black for LP base relative to lost business to Chez Henri and mountainside. Perhaps the relocation of the proposed GSL will further enhance the attractiveness of connecting with SBV financially as well as aesthetically.

[aejkb]

All this is interesting and everything, but WTF is up with Shady Jay's tattoo? He's not as bad as the husband of the Irish girl on American Idol,who has them on his face, but a train station fresco? Seriously, I bet the new Guest services lodge will be moved closer to the Village, so as to knit the 2 together. Oh yeah and the Valley House is always crowded--you shouldnt walk up the hill to go there on weekends, you wouldnt like it.

[HowieT2]

All this is interesting and everything, but WTF is up with Shady Jay's tattoo? He's not as bad as the husband of the Irish girl on American Idol,who has them on his face, but a train station fresco? Seriously, I bet the new Guest services lodge will be moved closer to the Village, so as to knit the 2 together. Oh yeah and the Valley House is always crowded--you shouldnt walk up the hill to go there on weekends, you wouldnt like it.

Will Shadyjay get a tattoo of the new GSL on his lower back?

[arc1]

This sounds like a great opportunity to rethink the apres food issue. I'm always amazed there's no food available after 400 or so in the CRP. You've got a room full of hungry people drinking beer and it only makes sense to serve food. Gotta think that would be a money maker too. We finally gave up and took our crew to the Pheonix, and ironically they don't serve till 5. So we wait and spend our $ there. Ever been to another apres ski pub that doesn't serve food?

[HowieT2]

This sounds like a great opportunity to rethink the apres food issue. I'm always amazed there's no food available after 400 or so in the CRP. You've got a room full of hungry people drinking beer and it only makes sense to serve food. Gotta think that would be a money maker too. We finally gave up and took our crew to the Pheonix, and ironically they don't serve till 5. So we wait and spend our $ there. Ever been to another apres ski pub that doesn't serve food?
I'll second that. I'll even volunteer to make some wings myself.

[djd66]

This sounds like a great opportunity to rethink the apres food issue. I'm always amazed there's no food available after 400 or so in the CRP. You've got a room full of hungry people drinking beer and it only makes sense to serve food. Gotta think that would be a money maker too. We finally gave up and took our crew to the Pheonix, and ironically they don't serve till 5. So we wait and spend our $ there. Ever been to another apres ski pub that doesn't serve food?
I'll second that. I'll even volunteer to make some wings myself.

How about keeping the GH lodge open after 4:00 and selling take out pizza? Minus American Flat Bread, IMHO, GH Lodge Pizza is the best in the valley. i would love to be able to buy this after hours. I would think with all the condos and homes in the area, they could do a nice busness. The overhead is already paid for, just need a couple of people to run it. Just a thought,...

[shadyjay]

Keeping this on the topic of Sugarbush..............

Maybe I'll get a Sugarbush tattoo on my arm or across my chest and get written up in the Valley Reporter for it. That way, I can have the NYT on the back and the VR on the front!
Better yet, as someone suggested, I can get the Gate House, with a SB mural, on my front, and with the text "I'm Better Here". Maybe Win would be interested in paying for it?

:D

We now return you to your previous scheduled thread, and if you want to know more info, send me a PM. Thx!

[smootharc]

Better yet, as someone suggested, I can get the Gate House, with a SB mural, on my front, and with the text "I'm Better Here".
:D
We now return you to your previous scheduled thread....


....until I suggest, for ski bunny attraction sake, that you add "You're better here, too !" to that tat..... :wink:

[Crocker]

This sounds like a great opportunity to rethink the apres food issue. I'm always amazed there's no food available after 400 or so in the CRP. You've got a room full of hungry people drinking beer and it only makes sense to serve food. Gotta think that would be a money maker too. We finally gave up and took our crew to the Pheonix, and ironically they don't serve till 5. So we wait and spend our $ there. Ever been to another apres ski pub that doesn't serve food?

Clearly, great minds think alike. Castlerock Pub serves its full menu until 4:30 Monday-Thursday and until 5:00 on weekends. On days that there is a BBQ, however, the food service ends at 3:00, which, conveniently, is when Timbers begins serving their apres menu. As the season winds down, look for operating hours to change with skier visits, but that is the schedule as of today. I hope this post leads to many smiley emoticons.

[MntMan4Bush]

That is good news to hear. However I think that the intent was that if the CRP expands then perhaps the Apres menu will as well. Personally I'd love to toss back some wings, loaded nachos, potato skins, soups, calamari, mini pizzas or slices etc after a day of skiing and keep that going until about 7 during the heart of the season. I think that if they were able to facilitate a more robust Apres menu at the CRP I'd have a lot less quid in my pocket at the end of the night. As it is we either jet to our ski house after a few beers to whip some Tyson's into the oven or have even been know to make the sojourn over to the 1824 for a bowl of french onion soup. Now that's a HAUL for some Apres treats. Not exactly an Apres setting or menu but the soup is outrageous.

As far as other ideas posted I love the idea of the fire pit. Be it gas or wood it would be a nice touch. I know people who want to go to Flat Breads just to stand around the fire and drink beer.

I also like the idea of a nice skating rink. I know they have one downtown, but I'm talking one that fits in with the decor of a small Vermont Ski Village. Not so much a rink as an artificial pond with the mountain in the back ground. I guess the question would be where to put it. I guess you could ax the valet parking area and have that be farther away. I don't know, but a nice rink with and adjacent Waffle Haus for some Hot Chocolate (possibly Irish up the cups a bit) would be sweet.

Yeah know....while we're all dreaming of things..........

[noski]

Clearly, great minds think alike. ... as an 'aside', I have heard this in a different context:; "Simple minds seldom differ"..... Clearly NOT the case in this instance, that goes without saying.... :)

[Tin Woodsman]

It's my day off so I'll take a step onto the minefield and take the flames regarding the size of the CP. One thing that alot of people who are quick to shout often that the Bush screwed up by making it too small is very unfair IMHO. Hindsight is 20/20.

When something as big/complicated as a new Gatehouse Lodge, one piece of the new developement is planned no one really knows how busy the bar will be. There is the balance of size regarding when it's going to be busy on weekends/holidays but not very busy during the week. Not sure if the closing of the Blue Tooth was a done deal at this time. This balance is important in planning pretty much any building/space at a seasonal business like a ski resort. Who knew that after a month after opening the Bush would be blessed with good snow from then to present. IIRC the Bush went 100% open on Jan 21, 2007.

With a business with such a small profit margin I think underplanning/undersizing is the wise way then adjust as you go. According to BMM the NSAA reports that the average profit margin at a ski resort is 3%. That's a pretty scary number. So many small improvements have been made basically unseen to the public.

SRO - I'm sorry, but this is a bit of a cop out. As you well know, the net change in actual bar space between the 05/06 and 06/07 seasons was:

SUBTRACT
North 1/3 of old GH lodge
Wunderbar
Mushroom
Blue Tooth

ADD
New CR Pub

Timbers barely counts, as it's not exactly designed to take large apres crowds and last year was completely ill-prepared to do so (menu, service and set-up) anyway.

Anyway you look at it, it should have been painfully obvious that CRP would be crowded - it's smaller than its namesake inthe old lodge, let alone the Shroom and Wunderbar. Wunderbar is thankfully open again this year, but there just isn't as much activity in VH lodge as in years past for a variety of reasons.

Given margins on alcohol sales in the 300% range, I think this is one area where you'd be willing to over plan a bit.

Regardless, looks like the expansion largely addresses this issue, so I've got nothing to complain about (unless they stiff me on the plaque commemorating the Tin Woodsman Annex).

[thinksnow]

Instead, we plan to expand the Gatehouse by building out the lower level of the Castlerock pub and having a deck overhead. We will put in a hood so we can grill, and we will also expand the amount of boot storage by building an extra bay on the west side of the second floot. I think this will add 80 -120 seats and almost double the storage area. More later!



Great~ This sounds a LOT like what happened to the previous Gatehouse Lodge....So where will the big white tent be stuck this time??

[Tin Woodsman]

This sounds like a great opportunity to rethink the apres food issue. I'm always amazed there's no food available after 400 or so in the CRP. You've got a room full of hungry people drinking beer and it only makes sense to serve food. Gotta think that would be a money maker too. We finally gave up and took our crew to the Pheonix, and ironically they don't serve till 5. So we wait and spend our $ there. Ever been to another apres ski pub that doesn't serve food?

Clearly, great minds think alike. Castlerock Pub serves its full menu until 4:30 Monday-Thursday and until 5:00 on weekends. On days that there is a BBQ, however, the food service ends at 3:00, which, conveniently, is when Timbers begins serving their apres menu. As the season winds down, look for operating hours to change with skier visits, but that is the schedule as of today. I hope this post leads to many smiley emoticons.

Being able to actually walk around in the larger CRP will be a good thing. It's hard to determine what the hell is going on or is available when you are stuffed cheek by jowl into the joint. Pizza would be nice, and easy, too.

[boze]

This sounds like a great opportunity to rethink the apres food issue. I'm always amazed there's no food available after 400 or so in the CRP. You've got a room full of hungry people drinking beer and it only makes sense to serve food. Gotta think that would be a money maker too. We finally gave up and took our crew to the Pheonix, and ironically they don't serve till 5. So we wait and spend our $ there. Ever been to another apres ski pub that doesn't serve food?
I'll second that. I'll even volunteer to make some wings myself.

Howie makes really good wings. Really good. Hope Win takes you up on your generous offer, amigo.

[win]

The tent will be silver this time! If it is, we will name it the Tin annex.

[HowieT2]

It's my day off so I'll take a step onto the minefield and take the flames regarding the size of the CP. One thing that alot of people who are quick to shout often that the Bush screwed up by making it too small is very unfair IMHO. Hindsight is 20/20.

When something as big/complicated as a new Gatehouse Lodge, one piece of the new developement is planned no one really knows how busy the bar will be. There is the balance of size regarding when it's going to be busy on weekends/holidays but not very busy during the week. Not sure if the closing of the Blue Tooth was a done deal at this time. This balance is important in planning pretty much any building/space at a seasonal business like a ski resort. Who knew that after a month after opening the Bush would be blessed with good snow from then to present. IIRC the Bush went 100% open on Jan 21, 2007.

With a business with such a small profit margin I think underplanning/undersizing is the wise way then adjust as you go. According to BMM the NSAA reports that the average profit margin at a ski resort is 3%. That's a pretty scary number. So many small improvements have been made basically unseen to the public.

SRO - I'm sorry, but this is a bit of a cop out. As you well know, the net change in actual bar space between the 05/06 and 06/07 seasons was:

SUBTRACT
North 1/3 of old GH lodge
Wunderbar
Mushroom
Blue Tooth

ADD
New CR Pub

Timbers barely counts, as it's not exactly designed to take large apres crowds and last year was completely ill-prepared to do so (menu, service and set-up) anyway.

Anyway you look at it, it should have been painfully obvious that CRP would be crowded - it's smaller than its namesake inthe old lodge, let alone the Shroom and Wunderbar. Wunderbar is thankfully open again this year, but there just isn't as much activity in VH lodge as in years past for a variety of reasons.

Given margins on alcohol sales in the 300% range, I think this is one area where you'd be willing to over plan a bit.

Regardless, looks like the expansion largely addresses this issue, so I've got nothing to complain about (unless they stiff me on the plaque commemorating the Tin Woodsman Annex).

You can't just discount Timbers out of hand. It's twice as big and decades nicer than the mushroom, as beloved as it was. So the net loss at the mtn is really just the wonderbar which has been open all year. The blue tooth is off mtn and judging by the crowds or lack thereof towards the end, was excess.

Be that as it may, tomorrow looks great.

[snowcreek]

Any plans for the Valley House chair next year? We miss it especially onh the weekends.

[tomthumb]

Any plans for the Valley House chair next year? We miss it especially onh the weekends.

I've heard that the Valley House Chair WILL be fixed this Summer. The rope is in good condition, but the grips will need to be replaced. Fix it, run it, and you'll have happy customers, and shorter lift lines at the base lifts! Let's hope this rumor is true!