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View Full Version : Economic Health of the MRV - What's the Scoop?



Treehugger
02-22-2008, 12:54 AM
The Today show is a great thing for MRG. It's funny how everyone feels the need to take sides regarding the economic health of the Valley. it's not really a take sides issue. Economics in the Vally are not good. Yeah, businesses open and close for a variety of reasons, but somebody "having enough of the business" would usually sell if they're doing decent numbers, not just close. And a number of properties just closed. Sure new places open, but that doesn't mean they'll make money. I know one Win mentioned - Big picture - owner said to a salesman that they're "hemorrhaging money". And look at the night club/bar count. No Mad Mountain, no Tooth, no Gags, and still it's hard to find more than one crowded location on a Saturday night. last weekend should have been packed with party-goers everywhere, but it wasn't even close. Do you really want what the Phoenix delivers? Green Cup and Spotted Cow have been food locations for years. They're not additional choices. Also, those aren't 3 restaurants for sale, they're 3 properties. The businesses are gone. I applaud and admire Win for what he's taken on, but he's not here to save the Vally; he's here to make a profit at Sugarbush. If i spent that money I'd also be worried about Sugarbush first.




The Today Show is here because this was the only large resort not booked for the holiday week!
The increase in skiers and their increased rudeness in the result of turning the Sugarbush Inn into a low rent Bus Depot. Notice how many buses
are around on the weekend, filling the lodge and mountain with riff raff.Lower the ticket price to $63 and get more Quality day skiers.
How about a segment on all of the Restaurants for sale, maybe shake a buyer out of the tree.
When the destination wedding fad is over the final nail will be driven.

Interesting...and where did you get your information about why the Today show choose Sugarbush over other resorts? The voices in your head telling you it is so?

How do you figure that lowering ticket prices will increase the "quality" of people skiing? Although I would love to see prices lower in general your comment makes no sense.

As for restaurants...it is a shame that there are three of them up for sale. Although one that closed the owners are now running another in The Valley and one closed because the owner had had enough of the business. While that is a shame at least two more opened up The Green Cup and the Spotted Cow, both offering great food. And a new deli has opened up in The Sugarbush Village. Along with that The Phoenix bar is now delivering. So while there are restaurants for sale it hardly tells the whole story of restaurants in The Valley.

Your whole post wreaks of a giant troll and being a CIT (Curmudgeon In Training) I would know 8)

jkvt

HowieT2
02-22-2008, 07:53 AM
[quote="Treehugger"]The Today show is a great thing for MRG. It's funny how everyone feels the need to take sides regarding the economic health of the Valley. it's not really a take sides issue. Economics in the Vally are not good. Yeah, businesses open and close for a variety of reasons, but somebody "having enough of the business" would usually sell if they're doing decent numbers, not just close. And a number of properties just closed. Sure new places open, but that doesn't mean they'll make money. I know one Win mentioned - Big picture - owner said to a salesman that they're "hemorrhaging money". And look at the night club/bar count. No Mad Mountain, no Tooth, no Gags, and still it's hard to find more than one crowded location on a Saturday night. last weekend should have been packed with party-goers everywhere, but it wasn't even close. Do you really want what the Phoenix delivers? Green Cup and Spotted Cow have been food locations for years. They're not additional choices. Also, those aren't 3 restaurants for sale, they're 3 properties. The businesses are gone. I applaud and admire Win for what he's taken on, but he's not here to save the Vally; he's here to make a profit at Sugarbush. If i spent that money I'd also be worried about Sugarbush first.


SB is the valley. If SB does well and draws more people to the valley, the area restaurants/bars/retailers will do better.

ski_resort_observer
02-22-2008, 08:31 AM
SB is the valley. If SB does well and draws more people to the valley, the area restaurants/bars/retailers will do better.

The Bush is no doubt the economic engine that drives the valley and IMHO with the opening of the new Lincoln Peak Village 14 months ago and the success of the Bush's first summer season in years the road back has started.

When The Maples developement started a few years ago it was the first real estate developement in the resort area in many, many years. Now there are several developements, all pretty small scale, going on, including LBO's devlopement across the Access Rd from the Maples.

The current real estate malaise is an obstacle for every resort but I think the Bush is doing pretty good in that regard and in a year or so that will improve and help the slow and steady economic developement of the valley.

jkvt
02-22-2008, 09:07 AM
The Today show is a great thing for MRG. It's funny how everyone feels the need to take sides regarding the economic health of the Valley. it's not really a take sides issue. Economics in the Vally are not good. Yeah, businesses open and close for a variety of reasons, but somebody "having enough of the business" would usually sell if they're doing decent numbers, not just close. And a number of properties just closed. Sure new places open, but that doesn't mean they'll make money. I know one Win mentioned - Big picture - owner said to a salesman that they're "hemorrhaging money". And look at the night club/bar count. No Mad Mountain, no Tooth, no Gags, and still it's hard to find more than one crowded location on a Saturday night. last weekend should have been packed with party-goers everywhere, but it wasn't even close. Do you really want what the Phoenix delivers? Green Cup and Spotted Cow have been food locations for years. They're not additional choices. Also, those aren't 3 restaurants for sale, they're 3 properties. The businesses are gone. I applaud and admire Win for what he's taken on, but he's not here to save the Vally; he's here to make a profit at Sugarbush. If i spent that money I'd also be worried about Sugarbush first.

There is no doubt that there is a definite change to the Valley demographic, from those moving in to those coming up for ski vacations. I mentioned the Green Cup and Spotted Cow only because now Jason and Greg are offering dinners, where it was only breakfast/lunch before. Now will they make money??? That is the $25K question. One can hope. Personally I don't look at it as a taking sides kind of thing...The Taoist in me just sees it as an is, and wonders why and how to make the best of the direction it is taking and if at all possible help steer it towards a direction I would like (which may not be the direction the next person wants).

As for bars/nightclubs, it does seem to be quieter out there. For myself I know that once the little one came along I wasn't going out till 1 anymore. I have heard good things about Slide Brook Tavern as a place to listen to music and hang, but can not speak first hand. I wonder if the lack of night life is a case of lack of places to go or lack or desire. It doesn't seem to be (but I have no hard evidence) as many young ski-bum types flocking to the Valley - and they were really the catalyst to the nightlife (at least in the 80s and 90s when I was one of them). I do know the population demographics of people moving into Valley towns are heavily skewed toward older retirees with a few families sprinkled in, not the going out till dawn and then skiing till dark crowd. They are also not as reliant on the mountain for their well being and when decisions are made about directions that towns should take often as not push back against moves to open up to more growth.

I agree that Win and all up at SB have done a great job in revitalizing the mountain. I admire his steadfastness, even when he did not seem to have the support of the towns or neighbors. Keep up the good work. :-)


jkvt






:D

heath1230
02-22-2008, 12:52 PM
The Today show is a great thing for MRG. It's funny how everyone feels the need to take sides regarding the economic health of the Valley. it's not really a take sides issue. Economics in the Vally are not good. Yeah, businesses open and close for a variety of reasons, but somebody "having enough of the business" would usually sell if they're doing decent numbers, not just close. And a number of properties just closed. Sure new places open, but that doesn't mean they'll make money. I know one Win mentioned - Big picture - owner said to a salesman that they're "hemorrhaging money". And look at the night club/bar count. No Mad Mountain, no Tooth, no Gags, and still it's hard to find more than one crowded location on a Saturday night. last weekend should have been packed with party-goers everywhere, but it wasn't even close. Do you really want what the Phoenix delivers? Green Cup and Spotted Cow have been food locations for years. They're not additional choices. Also, those aren't 3 restaurants for sale, they're 3 properties. The businesses are gone. I applaud and admire Win for what he's taken on, but he's not here to save the Vally; he's here to make a profit at Sugarbush. If i spent that money I'd also be worried about Sugarbush first.




The Today Show is here because this was the only large resort not booked for the holiday week!
The increase in skiers and their increased rudeness in the result of turning the Sugarbush Inn into a low rent Bus Depot. Notice how many buses
are around on the weekend, filling the lodge and mountain with riff raff.Lower the ticket price to $63 and get more Quality day skiers.
How about a segment on all of the Restaurants for sale, maybe shake a buyer out of the tree.
When the destination wedding fad is over the final nail will be driven.

Interesting...and where did you get your information about why the Today show choose Sugarbush over other resorts? The voices in your head telling you it is so?

How do you figure that lowering ticket prices will increase the "quality" of people skiing? Although I would love to see prices lower in general your comment makes no sense.

As for restaurants...it is a shame that there are three of them up for sale. Although one that closed the owners are now running another in The Valley and one closed because the owner had had enough of the business. While that is a shame at least two more opened up The Green Cup and the Spotted Cow, both offering great food. And a new deli has opened up in The Sugarbush Village. Along with that The Phoenix bar is now delivering. So while there are restaurants for sale it hardly tells the whole story of restaurants in The Valley.

Your whole post wreaks of a giant troll and being a CIT (Curmudgeon In Training) I would know 8)

jkvt


TREEHUGGER - News flash...if Sugarbush (not Win Smith or any other owners of the resort) didn't exist the valley would be NOTHING, just a cute town to drive through.

Yard Sale
02-22-2008, 02:01 PM
[/quote]


TREEHUGGER - News flash...if Sugarbush (not Win Smith or any other owners of the resort) didn't exist the valley would be NOTHING, just a cute town to drive through.[/quote]


. . . . . And your point would beeee . . . ? Um . . . . .you don't like cute towns?

Treehugger
02-22-2008, 06:48 PM
The Today show is a great thing for MRG. It's funny how everyone feels the need to take sides regarding the economic health of the Valley. it's not really a take sides issue. Economics in the Vally are not good. Yeah, businesses open and close for a variety of reasons, but somebody "having enough of the business" would usually sell if they're doing decent numbers, not just close. And a number of properties just closed. Sure new places open, but that doesn't mean they'll make money. I know one Win mentioned - Big picture - owner said to a salesman that they're "hemorrhaging money". And look at the night club/bar count. No Mad Mountain, no Tooth, no Gags, and still it's hard to find more than one crowded location on a Saturday night. last weekend should have been packed with party-goers everywhere, but it wasn't even close. Do you really want what the Phoenix delivers? Green Cup and Spotted Cow have been food locations for years. They're not additional choices. Also, those aren't 3 restaurants for sale, they're 3 properties. The businesses are gone. I applaud and admire Win for what he's taken on, but he's not here to save the Vally; he's here to make a profit at Sugarbush. If i spent that money I'd also be worried about Sugarbush first.




The Today Show is here because this was the only large resort not booked for the holiday week!
The increase in skiers and their increased rudeness in the result of turning the Sugarbush Inn into a low rent Bus Depot. Notice how many buses
are around on the weekend, filling the lodge and mountain with riff raff.Lower the ticket price to $63 and get more Quality day skiers.
How about a segment on all of the Restaurants for sale, maybe shake a buyer out of the tree.
When the destination wedding fad is over the final nail will be driven.

Interesting...and where did you get your information about why the Today show choose Sugarbush over other resorts? The voices in your head telling you it is so?

How do you figure that lowering ticket prices will increase the "quality" of people skiing? Although I would love to see prices lower in general your comment makes no sense.

As for restaurants...it is a shame that there are three of them up for sale. Although one that closed the owners are now running another in The Valley and one closed because the owner had had enough of the business. While that is a shame at least two more opened up The Green Cup and the Spotted Cow, both offering great food. And a new deli has opened up in The Sugarbush Village. Along with that The Phoenix bar is now delivering. So while there are restaurants for sale it hardly tells the whole story of restaurants in The Valley.

Your whole post wreaks of a giant troll and being a CIT (Curmudgeon In Training) I would know 8)

jkvt


TREEHUGGER - News flash...if Sugarbush (not Win Smith or any other owners of the resort) didn't exist the valley would be NOTHING, just a cute town to drive through.


Wow. Never thought of that. Just like KMart or Stratton or most other resorts...
I'm not whining about Sugarbush. I'm whining about how this town dropped the ball as far as letting the ski town vibe go down the toilet.

ski_resort_observer
02-22-2008, 08:05 PM
No question the bar/live music choices have shrunk in the last few years. Personally I take it as the natural change for the Bush and the valley to cater/market more to families. The legendary terrain of the Bush brings in the hardcore skiers.

IMHO MMT was more to do with the change in ownership and the Washington County Sheriff Dept than the town.

The Blue Tooth closed cause the Bush already had plenty on the plate and running the Blue Tooth was a hassle plus there was an opportunity to sell it to a state non-profit for the construction of much needed low income/employee. The status of that deal seems to be abit muddled at this time. Not with the Bush but with the town of Warren.

Gallaghers and Big World basically traded places. For sure we don't have any places like the Rusty Nail up in Stowe or The Wobbly Barn at kmart but I think that's okay. As pointed out there are still several places for live music but there is no question that the live music/bar scene has mellowed here in the valley.

Tin Woodsman
02-25-2008, 10:51 AM
No question the bar/live music choices have shrunk in the last few years. Personally I take it as the natural change for the Bush and the valley to cater/market more to families. The legendary terrain of the Bush brings in the hardcore skiers.

IMHO MMT was more to do with the change in ownership and the Washington County Sheriff Dept than the town. The Blue Tooth closed cause the Bush already had plenty on the plate and running the Blue Tooth was a hassle plus there was an opportunity to sell it to a state non-profit for the construction of much needed low income/employee. The status of that deal seems to be abit muddled at this time. Not with the Bush but with the town of Warren.

Gallaghers and Big World basically traded places. For sure we don't have any places like the Rusty Nail up in Stowe or The Wobbly Barn at kmart but I think that's okay. As pointed out there are still several places for live music but there is no question that the live music/bar scene has mellowed here in the valley.

Reading this, I could only think back to Spinal Tap:

Marty: On your last tour, the band was playing in 10,000 seat arenas, 12,000 arenas. On this tour, you're booking 1,000 areans, 1,500 seat venues. Do you think the band's popularity is waning?

Ian: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, nothing like that. I simply think that their appeal is becoming more selective.

HowieT2
02-25-2008, 10:53 AM
No question the bar/live music choices have shrunk in the last few years. Personally I take it as the natural change for the Bush and the valley to cater/market more to families. The legendary terrain of the Bush brings in the hardcore skiers.

IMHO MMT was more to do with the change in ownership and the Washington County Sheriff Dept than the town. The Blue Tooth closed cause the Bush already had plenty on the plate and running the Blue Tooth was a hassle plus there was an opportunity to sell it to a state non-profit for the construction of much needed low income/employee. The status of that deal seems to be abit muddled at this time. Not with the Bush but with the town of Warren.

Gallaghers and Big World basically traded places. For sure we don't have any places like the Rusty Nail up in Stowe or The Wobbly Barn at kmart but I think that's okay. As pointed out there are still several places for live music but there is no question that the live music/bar scene has mellowed here in the valley.

Reading this, I could only think back to Spinal Tap:

Marty: On your last tour, the band was playing in 10,000 seat arenas, 12,000 arenas. On this tour, you're booking 1,000 areans, 1,500 seat venues. Do you think the band's popularity is waning?

Ian: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, nothing like that. I simply think that their appeal is becoming more selective.

But this one goes to 11.

Treehugger
02-25-2008, 08:26 PM
No question the bar/live music choices have shrunk in the last few years. Personally I take it as the natural change for the Bush and the valley to cater/market more to families. The legendary terrain of the Bush brings in the hardcore skiers.

IMHO MMT was more to do with the change in ownership and the Washington County Sheriff Dept than the town. The Blue Tooth closed cause the Bush already had plenty on the plate and running the Blue Tooth was a hassle plus there was an opportunity to sell it to a state non-profit for the construction of much needed low income/employee. The status of that deal seems to be abit muddled at this time. Not with the Bush but with the town of Warren.

Gallaghers and Big World basically traded places. For sure we don't have any places like the Rusty Nail up in Stowe or The Wobbly Barn at kmart but I think that's okay. As pointed out there are still several places for live music but there is no question that the live music/bar scene has mellowed here in the valley.

Reading this, I could only think back to Spinal Tap:

Marty: On your last tour, the band was playing in 10,000 seat arenas, 12,000 arenas. On this tour, you're booking 1,000 areans, 1,500 seat venues. Do you think the band's popularity is waning?

Ian: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, nothing like that. I simply think that their appeal is becoming more selective.

But this one goes to 11.


OK, the Tavern closed because the last owner wouldn't step up and make things right between himself, the State Police nazi who was the Barracks Commander at the time, and the liquor board. But this also shows the how the town has no vision because they let the cops harass the public until every liquor license holder was affected. That was more than a year after State police told the town they wanted Tavern closed. The same commander tried the same tactics at the Williamstown Music Club, and within a month, the Williamstown Selectboard told the cops to go away! Williamstown doesn't even have a tourist industry to protect. Gags and egans didn't trade places. Gags closed and never returned. S'bush would not close the Tooth if it was packed like 10 years ago. I was out touring the town last saturday night, and nobody had much of a crowd. Total capacity of MMT, Gags, Tooth, and Hyde is around 1000. Those 4 places would all be full on a decent saturday. Now we have Smokehouse, Phoenix and Hyde. Half the capacity, and nobody full.
So, yes, the appeal is becoming much more selective.

madhavok
02-26-2008, 09:57 AM
[quote="ski_resort_observer"]The Blue Tooth closed cause the Bush already had plenty on the plate and running the Blue Tooth was a hassle plus there was an opportunity to sell it to a state non-profit for the construction of much needed low income/employee. The status of that deal seems to be abit muddled at this time. Not with the Bush but with the town of Warren.
quote]

One thing MRV doesn't need at all is low-income housing. Burglaries have already been on the rise the past few years and when that ghetto project is added things will get even worse. If your goal is to drag Warren right down the tubes then I guess low-income housing is a great idea. On the other hand if you want to keep life better up here (like its suppose to be) then it would be a good idea to keep the projects out of town.

noski
02-26-2008, 10:06 AM
:shock: Someone please tell me he is kidding.

skibum1321
02-26-2008, 10:08 AM
The Blue Tooth closed cause the Bush already had plenty on the plate and running the Blue Tooth was a hassle plus there was an opportunity to sell it to a state non-profit for the construction of much needed low income/employee. The status of that deal seems to be abit muddled at this time. Not with the Bush but with the town of Warren.


One thing MRV doesn't need at all is low-income housing. Burglaries have already been on the rise the past few years and when that ghetto project is added things will get even worse. If your goal is to drag Warren right down the tubes then I guess low-income housing is a great idea. On the other hand if you want to keep life better up here (like its suppose to be) then it would be a good idea to keep the projects out of town.
Clearly anyone that lives in low-income housing must be a lying scumbag thief :roll:. Just so we're clear low-income != ghetto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto). Do you really think that income is directly proportional to being a good citizen? There are plenty of people out there that have low paying jobs or have hit tough times that are good upstanding citizens.
That statement makes you sound like such an elitist a**hole.

atkinson
02-26-2008, 11:08 AM
Many of the people who work in the Valley can't afford to live here and this project should help them. Also, these are likely not the people who are, or will be, committing property crimes in the Valley. Is this type of crime really becoming more prevalent? I don't know the actual statistics, so I can't comment on it. Regardless, affordable housing at the Blue Tooth site is not going to make the Access Road a ghetto.

As for the health of the Valley restaurant scene, everybody seems like an expert, but I wonder how many pontificators have actually worked in the industry or owned a business or understand just how complex it is. Little snapshots of the Den or the Warren House do not present a full or accurate picture.

Between Flatbread, Egan's, the Hyde Away, Purple Moon/ Easy Street, Common Man, Chez Henri's, Michael's Good to Go, Mill Brook, the Smokehouse, China Fun, Timber's, Pitcher Inn, Paradise, the farmer's market, Jay's, Spotted Cow, all three ski area base lodges, etc, there is no denying the health and vitality of the Valley's food producers.

The lack of loud late nightlife could be attributed to a demographic shift and to the fact that a large portion of people come here to ski and ride first and foremost. A few drinks, some good food with friends and early to bed is fairly common practice. You can't hit first chair and rip all day with a body full of hangover.

If you really think that the Valley needs a new nightspot, open one.

John

madhavok
02-26-2008, 11:17 AM
Skibum1321,

Listen boy,

Low-income housing is just a sugar coated umbrella term for a project. Have you ever even been to a project? Have you seen the impact they have on a neighborhood? Well I’ve been to them, I’ve done my share of work in them, and I personally know people who were driven out of their neighborhood because of them. And just so you know I’m talking about projects built in nice, good to live neighborhoods not NYC ghetto style.

Let me tell you the end results are always the same. They attract the wrong crowd, depreciate surrounding property values, and bring an increase in crime. You must be pretty naive to think the only people who move into the project are going to be hard working, good, honest people who have hit tough times.


As for calling me an "elitist a**hole" that’s just too funny.

noski
02-26-2008, 11:35 AM
Not to belabor this 'discussion', however a few points about Wheeler Brook Housing (aka Blue Tooth). It is about 18 units of single and multi family dwellings over a total of 9 acres. While not all the acreage is suitable for building, it is a good sized parcel. Financing for these units may be obtained via the VT Housing Finance Agency, where, btw, I would qualify if I were buying a home.

HowieT2
02-26-2008, 12:08 PM
Skibum1321,

Listen boy,

Low-income housing is just a sugar coated umbrella term for a project. Have you ever even been to a project? Have you seen the impact they have on a neighborhood? Well I’ve been to them, I’ve done my share of work in them, and I personally know people who were driven out of their neighborhood because of them. And just so you know I’m talking about projects built in nice, good to live neighborhoods not NYC ghetto style.

Let me tell you the end results are always the same. They attract the wrong crowd, depreciate surrounding property values, and bring an increase in crime. You must be pretty naive to think the only people who move into the project are going to be hard working, good, honest people who have hit tough times.


As for calling me an "elitist a**hole" that’s just too funny.

Actually it is not funny.
I can't argue with your experience but I have seen other "projects" blend in quite well without degrading the surrounding neighborhood. Are there problems, of course, there are bad apples in every bunch, but that doesn't mean all those of lessor means should not have access to decent housing. Furthermore, without the hard work of a lot of people earning small incomes, SB as we know it would not exist.
I know in NY and NJ, towns are required by law to provide low/moderate income housing in some way shape or form when other development is happening. I assume this is true of VT and the project at issue is in response to this mandate.

atkinson
02-26-2008, 12:10 PM
Me too, noski!

Somehow, I don't see this project as decreasing property values on the Access Rd or driving anybody out of the neighborhood. However, noski is a known perpetrator of extortion, pillaging and mayhem, so I may be wrong.

John

007
02-26-2008, 12:13 PM
Skibum1321,

Listen boy,

Low-income housing is just a sugar coated umbrella term for a project. Have you ever even been to a project? Have you seen the impact they have on a neighborhood? Well I’ve been to them, I’ve done my share of work in them, and I personally know people who were driven out of their neighborhood because of them. And just so you know I’m talking about projects built in nice, good to live neighborhoods not NYC ghetto style.

Let me tell you the end results are always the same. They attract the wrong crowd, depreciate surrounding property values, and bring an increase in crime. You must be pretty naive to think the only people who move into the project are going to be hard working, good, honest people who have hit tough times.


As for calling me an "elitist a**hole" that’s just too funny.



It's called "Affordable Housing", and it's nothing like "Low Income Housing" as seen in the urban areas.
It would provide for certain people (only 20+/- owners) who work in the valley financial feasibility to own property and live here, which the valley desperately needs.

Here's the lingo from the town meeting in 2006:

Application 2006-05-SD, 2006-06-CU, 2006-03-PRD, Preliminary Plan Approval/
Subdivision Approval, Blue Tooth HLP, for Summit Ventures(Blue Tooth Property),
(Continued from July 19, 2006) Preliminary Plan Review for a planned unit development of
20 Units of affordable housing.

ski_resort_observer
02-26-2008, 12:44 PM
:lol: :lol: I put the chimp with the gun on my ignore list months ago so I guess I'm missing some of the comments here. Just ignore him/her. :D

skibum1321
02-26-2008, 12:45 PM
Skibum1321,

Listen boy,

Low-income housing is just a sugar coated umbrella term for a project. Have you ever even been to a project? Have you seen the impact they have on a neighborhood? Well I’ve been to them, I’ve done my share of work in them, and I personally know people who were driven out of their neighborhood because of them. And just so you know I’m talking about projects built in nice, good to live neighborhoods not NYC ghetto style.

Let me tell you the end results are always the same. They attract the wrong crowd, depreciate surrounding property values, and bring an increase in crime. You must be pretty naive to think the only people who move into the project are going to be hard working, good, honest people who have hit tough times.


As for calling me an "elitist a**hole" that’s just too funny.
First of all, by the description these are not projects. I realize that there are problems and the bad apples come in every group and I'm certainly not saying that everyone will be people that fell on tough times. These will provide housing to many of the resort's employees. Do you really think that lifties are making the big bucks? We shouldn't force lower income employees to live in the middle of nowhere where housing is cheaper. This just exacerbates the problem because then people can't find jobs nearby and need to spend too much money in transportation to get to a real job.
Is affordable housing perfect? No. If you have a better solution, then by all means put it out there.

freeheel_skier
02-26-2008, 12:57 PM
MOD:

Split thread and move to Misc.

-Please :D

Tin Woodsman
02-26-2008, 02:00 PM
Skibum1321,

Listen boy,

Low-income housing is just a sugar coated umbrella term for a project. Have you ever even been to a project? Have you seen the impact they have on a neighborhood? Well I’ve been to them, I’ve done my share of work in them, and I personally know people who were driven out of their neighborhood because of them. And just so you know I’m talking about projects built in nice, good to live neighborhoods not NYC ghetto style.

Let me tell you the end results are always the same. They attract the wrong crowd, depreciate surrounding property values, and bring an increase in crime. You must be pretty naive to think the only people who move into the project are going to be hard working, good, honest people who have hit tough times.


As for calling me an "elitist a**hole" that’s just too funny.

Chimp chump -

Your "experience" with affordable housing projects in the cities and burbs of the flatlands has little, if any, relevance to the purpose and residents of those properties in ski country. Building affordable housing in ski towns is widely recognized as a critical requirement for promoting and maintaining sustainable, year-round communities. As ski towns attract wealthy second home owners, the value of real estate and the tax burden generally increase at a much faster rate than the incomes of local residents. As a result, these folks tend to get shunted further and further away from the ski area and the towns they feed on and from. In order to have a ski town with any sort of vitality, you need the lifties, the shop owners, the waitresses and the civil servants who are actually present from Monday through Friday and during shoulder seasons. What good would the growth of Sugarbush and MRG be for the MRV if the only way to afford a house as a result was to buy in Lower Granville? towns like Aspen and Telluride are going to great lengths to build affordable housing, as they realize that having their critical workers live 40 minutes down valley isn't the optimal solution for a healthy outlook. I have very close friends who have lived in the Aspen affordable housing projects/system - a nice young married couple (and their dog), one of whom worked for the city and one who worked at the Nell. Guess I should associate with some less shady folks than that, huh?

Your conflation of affordable housing with a criminal elements is not only staggeringly ignorant, it's incredibly embarrassing - for you. Please stop and direct your creative writing efforts towards a subject where you actually bring something to the table other than your own prejudices and lousy grammar.

madhavok
02-26-2008, 02:23 PM
Skibum1321,

Listen boy,

Low-income housing is just a sugar coated umbrella term for a project. Have you ever even been to a project? Have you seen the impact they have on a neighborhood? Well I’ve been to them, I’ve done my share of work in them, and I personally know people who were driven out of their neighborhood because of them. And just so you know I’m talking about projects built in nice, good to live neighborhoods not NYC ghetto style.

Let me tell you the end results are always the same. They attract the wrong crowd, depreciate surrounding property values, and bring an increase in crime. You must be pretty naive to think the only people who move into the project are going to be hard working, good, honest people who have hit tough times.


As for calling me an "elitist a**hole" that’s just too funny.



It's called "Affordable Housing", and it's nothing like "Low Income Housing" as seen in the urban areas.
It would provide for certain people (only 20+/- owners) who work in the valley financial feasibility to own property and live here, which the valley desperately needs.

Here's the lingo from the town meeting in 2006:

Application 2006-05-SD, 2006-06-CU, 2006-03-PRD, Preliminary Plan Approval/
Subdivision Approval, Blue Tooth HLP, for Summit Ventures(Blue Tooth Property),
(Continued from July 19, 2006) Preliminary Plan Review for a planned unit development of
20 Units of affordable housing.

007
First I was only replying to whatever Ski_resort_observer mentioned in his post.
Second, same difference.

madhavok
02-26-2008, 02:27 PM
Skibum1321
I was not aware that the affordable housing was EXCLUSIVLEY for Sugarbush employees. Is this really the case?

Also it was my understanding that these are ONLY rental units only, but reading this thread gives me the impression that Sugarbush employees will be able to purchase them. Are some or all of the units going to be sold off?


Now Obviously I know Lift ops don’t make the big bucks and that they are necessary for skiing; So of the 18 units how many do you anticipate will be rented by lift ops? Will the lift ops be renting these units all year round? If so where will they work to pay for the rent during the off-season? If not who else would be renting these units in the off-season?

madhavok
02-26-2008, 02:31 PM
Tin you and I both know the only tax burden is on out of staters so how does that have anything to do with what the local income is?

And now tah every unit is going to be sold to happily married couple with a dog I have nothing to worry about!

noski
02-26-2008, 02:33 PM
Ah, now we are making headway. We'll work on this point- Seasonal jobs are common in the MRV- not just lift ops, but much of ski area ops as well as those who plow snow- and there is a fair number of those. "Off season" is just another season. Many of those people become golf course employees, landscapers and property maintenance workers (there are lots of those too). They go into construction/excavation work. Not all of those jobs are in the Valley proper, but within an easy commute to Montpelier/Burlington. Some simply move on.

Some of Wheeler Brook housing will be rental, some will be sold.

madhavok
02-26-2008, 02:40 PM
Ah, now we are making headway. We'll work on this point- Seasonal jobs are common in the MRV- not just lift ops, but much of ski area ops as well as those who plow snow- and there is a fair number of those. "Off season" is just another season. Many of those people become golf course employees, landscapers and property maintenance workers (there are lots of those too). They go into construction/excavation work. Not all of those jobs are in the Valley proper, but within an easy commute to Montpelier/Burlington. Some simply move on.

Some of Wheeler Brook housing will be rental, some will be sold.

How many of the 18 unuts will be sold? Will the new owners be allowed to rent them to others?

skibum1321
02-26-2008, 02:52 PM
Skibum1321
I was not aware that the affordable housing was EXCLUSIVLEY for Sugarbush employees. Is this really the case?

Also it was my understanding that these are ONLY rental units only, but reading this thread gives me the impression that Sugarbush employees will be able to purchase them. Are some or all of the units going to be sold off?


Now Obviously I know Lift ops don’t make the big bucks and that they are necessary for skiing; So of the 18 units how many do you anticipate will be rented by lift ops? Will the lift ops be renting these units all year round? If so where will they work to pay for the rent during the off-season? If not who else would be renting these units in the off-season?
I actually never said that they would be rented exclusively by Sugarbush employees. But there are plenty of people living in the valley that would qualify for these units. As others have said, those people that live in and support the valley are being priced out by all of the second home buyers. I imagine that there is significantly more demand for low income housing in the valley than these 18 units will produce. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the plan, so I can't comment on whether they will be rentals or not.

jkvt
02-26-2008, 03:27 PM
OK, the Tavern closed because the last owner wouldn't step up and make things right between himself, the State Police nazi who was the Barracks Commander at the time, and the liquor board. But this also shows the how the town has no vision because they let the cops harass the public until every liquor license holder was affected. That was more than a year after State police told the town they wanted Tavern closed. The same commander tried the same tactics at the Williamstown Music Club, and within a month, the Williamstown Selectboard told the cops to go away! Williamstown doesn't even have a tourist industry to protect. Gags and egans didn't trade places. Gags closed and never returned. S'bush would not close the Tooth if it was packed like 10 years ago. I was out touring the town last saturday night, and nobody had much of a crowd. Total capacity of MMT, Gags, Tooth, and Hyde is around 1000. Those 4 places would all be full on a decent saturday. Now we have Smokehouse, Phoenix and Hyde. Half the capacity, and nobody full.
So, yes, the appeal is becoming much more selective.

The last owner of the Tavern/LocalfolkSmokehouse? When did John sell? As far as I know it has been the same owner for the last decade or more. And he did try and work things out with the police, but right for the commander at that time was to close down and the Waitsfield SB pussied out because they were told by the State Police that if they didn't support them they would be supporting drunk driving.

I agree The Valley got a bad rap for partying, even a write up in Skiing that said stay away fi you don't want to be pulled over. That had to hurt tourism.

jkvt

jkvt
02-26-2008, 03:42 PM
Tin you and I both know the only tax burden is on out of staters so how does that have anything to do with what the local income is?

That is the kind of ignorant statement that show a lack of understanding. Second home owners and an influx of first home owners from other areas drive up the price of homes and real estate and hence the tax rate. The result is that this drives people from their homes because salaries do not rise at the same rate. As a result families that have been here for generations are being driven from their homes so that second homeowners can have a nice place to come and spend. I have absolutely no sympathy for someone complaining about the taxes on their second or third homes when natives/locals are being driven from their homes. I do think that second homeowners should have a voice on a local level politically, perhaps that would better incorporate them into local life and give them a chance to see their neighbors and how they are being effected.

That said I love that we are a mecca for second homeowners and people from across the country and world, but we have to find a way to balance things out. Looking at local businesses that can't keep employees because they can not afford to pay them enough to live in the area, or enough to make the drive here worth while. So some affordable housing is a great option. I think the area should look at Aspen as a model. They did a great job providing locals with stable property values so they have a good base of people who can live where they work. The mountain realized that if they did not provide housing for workers at a rate they could afford then the glitteratti would be loading themselves onto chairs to ski an ungroomed or maintained runs.

jkvt

noski
02-26-2008, 04:09 PM
The last owner of the Tavern/LocalfolkSmokehouse? When did John sell? As far as I know it has been the same owner for the last decade or more. jkvt
Pretty close. John leased it to someone with an exceptionally poor business acumen- and I can't remember his name. A local restaurateur and I met with him to try and counsel him on the impact his business practice choices were having on the overall restaurant/nightlife climate. He was not particularly interested in our effort. Once he gave up his battle/was closed, John stepped back in, reorganized and has done pretty well as Localfolks Smokehouse.

Tin Woodsman
02-26-2008, 04:47 PM
Tin you and I both know the only tax burden is on out of staters so how does that have anything to do with what the local income is?



I don't think that's exactly true. I thought there was a higher tax burden on "gold towns" and a still higher rate for second homeowners in those towns. Regardless, second homes are a huge driver of the market in the MRV and have an impact on real estate values in general. The restrivtive development policies of the MRV commuinities don't help this issue. As prices escalate, so do property taxes, even if the mill rate remains unchanged. So, yes, property values and the associated taxes are moving upwards MUCH faster than incomes of local residents.

Plowboy
02-26-2008, 05:10 PM
The last owner of the Tavern/LocalfolkSmokehouse? When did John sell? As far as I know it has been the same owner for the last decade or more. jkvt
Pretty close. John leased it to someone with an exceptionally poor business acumen- and I can't remember his name. A local restaurateur and I met with him to try and counsel him on the impact his business practice choices were having on the overall restaurant/nightlife climate. He was not particularly interested in our effort. Once he gave up his battle/was closed, John stepped back in, reorganized and has done pretty well as Localfolks Smokehouse.

His name was Doug. He bought the MMT business and name. John leased him the space. After Doug got shut down he failed to make payments on the business and lease. When Doug first started, the empoyees called him Uncle Doug, near the end they called him Uncle DUMB.

jkvt
02-26-2008, 06:15 PM
The last owner of the Tavern/LocalfolkSmokehouse? When did John sell? As far as I know it has been the same owner for the last decade or more. jkvt
Pretty close. John leased it to someone with an exceptionally poor business acumen- and I can't remember his name. A local restaurateur and I met with him to try and counsel him on the impact his business practice choices were having on the overall restaurant/nightlife climate. He was not particularly interested in our effort. Once he gave up his battle/was closed, John stepped back in, reorganized and has done pretty well as Localfolks Smokehouse.

His name was Doug. He bought the MMT business and name. John leased him the space. After Doug got shut down he failed to make payments on the business and lease. When Doug first started, the empoyees called him Uncle Doug, near the end they called him Uncle DUMB.

Ohh yeah I remember him...drinking on the job...among othere things...he lasted so short a time that I had forgotten him.

jkvt

ski_resort_observer
02-26-2008, 06:41 PM
While everything you guys are saying is basically true the prices of real estate here doesn't come close to many of the other ski towns like Stowe, Manchester(maybe not a ski town but a tourist town, for sure) or Ludlow and certainly not even close to places out west like Aspen, Jackson, Ketchem, Telluride, Vail et al. According to my neighbor who has been a real estate broker in the valley for over 30 years the second home prices have not raised the prices of real estate prices in the valley much at all....yet. Some of the low end small condos at LP have gone up but the others not so much.

The real estate market in the valley has been pretty sedentary for alot of years and you can still find a decent house for 250k-300k. In Jackson or Aspen that same house would be well over a million. In Stowe or Manchester it would be 400k.

Didn't the guy who bought the MMT own a bar in the Burlington area and ran into problems with law enforcement there as well before he came to the valley? That's why law enforcement here were keying on him?

Plowboy
02-26-2008, 06:58 PM
Didn't the guy who bought the MMT own a bar in the Burlington area and ran into problems with law enforcement there as well before he came to the valley? That's why law enforcement here were keying on him?

No, that guy looked into it, but did't go for it. Doug was a K-mart skier from Jersey with a second home in Pittsfield and a dream of having a club.