ME Complaint: Can I get an honest trail report this weekend?

[madhavok]

Snow report stated I would be skiing on 111/111 trails (over 53 miles) on Saturday. Wrong. At the very least I know for a fact that Inverness and Brambles were closed. Would Sugarbush actually lose any business if they reported an honest 109/111 trails were open? No it would actually be appreciated.


Besides, I don’t see why Brambles even had to be closed, was it just so the GMVS could poach the POW?

And can they possibly think of a worse way to close Inverness? Someone is going to seriously injure him or herself trying to ski over to Semi-tough. The ropes close Inverness off too narrow and everyone gets funneled together, the snow gets skied off and it’s bad. My suggestion would be to close it off to lift tower #16 and then over to the bottom of the trailhead, after all there is plenty of room.

[shadyjay]

I'll agree! One of the reasons why I can't stand the GMVS. Brambles is a great trail, but problem is its never open because of these folk.
They manage to keep Spring Fling open even with racing taking place, funneling folk on both sides. Inverness is wider and would have plenty of room
to do this, or at least on one side. Yank out the poma and have them hug that side while still providing access to/from Semi Tough & Brambles.

If Spring Fling was the GMVS slope, they'd most likely close any trail that remotely comes close to it :shock:

[BushMogulMaster]

Snow report stated I would be skiing on 111/111 trails (over 53 miles) on Saturday. Wrong. At the very least I know for a fact that Inverness and Brambles were closed. Would Sugarbush actually lose any business if they reported an honest 109/111 trails were open? No it would actually be appreciated.


Besides, I don’t see why Brambles even had to be closed, was it just so the GMVS could poach the POW?

And can they possibly think of a worse way to close Inverness? Someone is going to seriously injure him or herself trying to ski over to Semi-tough. The ropes close Inverness off too narrow and everyone gets funneled together, the snow gets skied off and it’s bad. My suggestion would be to close it off to lift tower #16 and then over to the bottom of the trailhead, after all there is plenty of room.

No you can't, sorry. :wink:

Here's the deal: the trails were not 100% closed, per se. They were open for skiing, but closed to the public. When the trail report is done properly, it should say 111/111, but the trail list should have the letter "R" next to the trail name to indicate that it is being used for race training a race event. Like it or not, those racers at the hill this weekend are also paying customers.

Personally, if I was calling the shots, I'd list them as closed if they are to be closed for the whole day. But this is the system that the Win et. al. have developed. Maybe he can chime in and tell us a little more about his reasoning.

The Inverness lift was not closed to the public, although the sign at the bottom kind of makes it seem like that. That issue is being taken care of in the very near future, though.

[flakeydog]

I don't mind the racing on Inverness. It is great inspiration to my kids as we ride up the lift and watch the racers come down.

However..... it would be nice if they did a split trail like they did in the old days. When I was a young lad (strokes chin hearing harp music in the background), they ran top to bottom races on Inverness and had rope/fence/ribbon that split the trail. This accomplished 2 things. First, I loved being able to watch the race trailside as it was going on. Second, you could ski Inverness, especially the parts on the far side of the Poma lift. Unfortunately Brambles, back then as well as now was collateral damage. Worth it to have a trailside view of some pretty good racing from time to time. Some of those kids will be doing the World Cup circuit in a few years...

On another note, rediscovering the fantastic woods skiing all over the Inverness Pod. Great low-angle stuff for the kids or just nice cruising through open trees. Much like Eden but longer, no people and a lot more of it!

[skigal]

Are you absolutely sure Brambles was closed or did you assume it because of the race training on Inverness?

I have a frined who is new to Sugarbush and was raving about Brambles on Saturday. She mentioned that Inverness was closed but that they were able to cut across to Brambles, no problem.

I don't ski North a lot but I do know I've seen people get over to Brambles during training (as opposed to a race). Could that be the case?

[ScoobySnack]

I can confirm that Brambles was closed on Saturday (at least in the morning). It was my first time at Ellen this year, and I was hoping to ski brambles and inverness since I had heard they were fun trails (brambles particularly). I went up the Inverness lift a few times that morning (maybe til 11-ish) hoping that brambles would be open, but no such luck.
Not a big deal , but I did have the same thought that noting 100% open was misleading. I think there were little "r"s next to those trails as someone above noted, but I didn't check that out until afterwards. The 100% was what stood out.

[win]

These trails are open, but on certain days they are reserved for racing. If you look at the trail report you will see an "R" is that is the case!

[skibum1321]

For what it's worth, Brambles was open in the afternoon on Saturday (probably around 2ish). During racing, you wouldn't be able to ski Brambles because it funnels back into Inverness before the bottom of the race course.

[jkvt]

I'll agree! One of the reasons why I can't stand the GMVS. Brambles is a great trail, but problem is its never open because of these folk.
They manage to keep Spring Fling open even with racing taking place, funneling folk on both sides. Inverness is wider and would have plenty of room
to do this, or at least on one side. Yank out the poma and have them hug that side while still providing access to/from Semi Tough & Brambles.

If Spring Fling was the GMVS slope, they'd most likely close any trail that remotely comes close to it :shock:


One of the reasons that trails are closed during training is for safety. It happens all too often that as "Joe skier" is making his/her way down next to a race course adrenaline gets the best of them and they get the hankering to give it a try and slide on into the course. Not understanding that someone may be skiing down on them at 40mph or faster. I have seen some horrific crashes and some super scary near misses caused by this. This scenario does not apply to everyone and I would say most likely not to folks on this list. But for safety of both racer and public precautions are taken to close race courses.

jkvt

[MntMan4Bush]

I think that no one questions the fact that for safety reasons a trail should be closed down and everyone understands there are times this needs to be done for racing or whatever reason. I'm not sure that was the original issue. I think that MH may have been referring to the fact that it's a bag job for a mountain to boast 100% being open when not all the trails are open to the public. Sure 100% of the trails have cover and are ski-able, but not to the general public. It's a questionable practice at best whether it's widely used by all mountains or not. Personally I think it is a bit under handed. It's kind of like when at the start of the season the number of open trails is padded by having trails like Panorama open. I technically challenging trail for sure, but come on?

Of course I may be speaking out of turn for MH, but if that was his point I'd have to agree. Having fine print, an asterisk or an r next to a trail name is a bit of a cheek. Either you can ski on it or you can't.

[shadyjay]

There is one good thing with the racing (despite the $ it contributes towards the mountain):
It generally keeps the "public" trails in the I-Pod quiet, espec with the sign at the bottom saying "Inverness closed for racing".
It's a nice little solitude on a busy day. Or any day for that matter.

The early season deal they used to do when there were only a handful of runs on the upper mtn, and Elbow would be closed for racing. That basically cut your runs in half.
Its less painful with the mtn being 100% "skiable", 99% open to the public.

[ScoobySnack]

Good point on the racing and/or sign keeping people away. I had semi-tough and walt's trail pretty much all to myself on a Saturday of all times.
Both were nice little trails as well, especially with them wide open.

[madhavok]

Exactly. My gripe is with the inaccurate snow report & lift / trail report.
Both reports boast to the targeted audience (being the general public) that the mountain is 100% open, 111/111 trails & over 53 miles of open terrain. When in reality its not 100% open for the reader (again being the general public). Sure you can call a trail “open” because it is in ski able condition but that’s deceiving when it is actually closed to the majority for whatever reason. Besides how can you honestly call a trail “open” when it is roped off with a sign that reads “closed”?

Aside from that point I have the following suggestions:
First Brambles could easily be kept open to the public by simply shifting the race course uphill.

And secondly the way Inverness is roped off plain and simply bad. There is ample room to close Inverness without causing the narrow funneling going to Semi-tough. Give skiers a wider path to Semi-tough by closing Inverness to lift tower 16 and then over to the bottom of the trailhead. Problem solved!

[jkvt]

Exactly. My gripe is with the inaccurate snow report & lift / trail report.
Both reports boast to the targeted audience (being the general public) that the mountain is 100% open, 111/111 trails & over 53 miles of open terrain. <snip>

Just playing devils advocate...because I totally understand where you're coming from...was the trail closed all day? or just while they were training. I know they usually are only there in the mornings. Not much help I realize when you go to a trail find it closed for training and then head off to other turns.

jkvt

[madhavok]

Exactly. My gripe is with the inaccurate snow report & lift / trail report.
Both reports boast to the targeted audience (being the general public) that the mountain is 100% open, 111/111 trails & over 53 miles of open terrain. <snip>

Just playing devils advocate...because I totally understand where you're coming from...was the trail closed all day? or just while they were training. I know they usually are only there in the mornings. Not much help I realize when you go to a trail find it closed for training and then head off to other turns.

jkvt

Someone reported they were opened around 2pm.

[BushMogulMaster]

And secondly the way Inverness is roped off plain and simply bad. There is ample room to close Inverness without causing the narrow funneling going to Semi-tough. Give skiers a wider path to Semi-tough by closing Inverness to lift tower 16 and then over to the bottom of the trailhead. Problem solved!

I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Obviously, I wasn't there, so I didn't see Saturday's or Sunday's rope setup. But I've skied that area tons and tons of times during races, and have never had a problem or complaint re: roping. Can you elaborate on how exactly it was setup, and what exactly was the problem? Was it roped off from the return terminal to a tree, parallel to the lift line? Was it roped off from the return terminal across the trailhead to the Brambles entrance? Either way, I've never noticed a problem heading down skiers' right of the lift at the top of Inverness. Hop of the lift, take a hard left, and ski to Semi. As soon as you ski past the top terminal of the lift, it widens out and should be plenty of room to make turns down to Semi. It's not like there's much pitch to contend with!

Anyway, I'm just trying to understand what exactly the problem was.

[win]

Madhavok, we will disagree on this point. Over the years I found the best way of really telling what the true condition of a mountain was the percentage of trails open and skiiable. If we have trails like Inverness, Brambles and Spring Fling with great snow, and we report them closed, those percentages get picked up by various snow reporting services and can create a competetive disadvantage for us. We decided a couple of years ago to mark trails that were closed for a full day or a partial day with an R so everyone would know that the general public can not ski those trails. In my opinion this is not at all misleading! One does have to look at the trail report and not just the overall trail summary, but the information is there for all to see and understand. Our trail report is available daily on the website, so there should be no problem getting the information.

[madhavok]

Yeah, I disagree on that point. The way I personally estimate what the true conditions are is by looking at the new snowfall depths, current base depths, & the primary and secondary snow base conditions. But anyway, when I check the trail report in the future I'll keep an eye out for the "R"s. Can't say I've noticed them before, but I assume instead of the trail report having an X for open it will have an R for reserved?

[madhavok]

BushMogulMaster...

First let me clarify, I can more than handle getting to semi-tough under any conditions, but the current closure does make it tough for kids and beginners.

Now I'm not going to be able to describe it in words so I’ll attach some sketches as best as I can remember. Don't hold me the exact placement of the rope, I don't have any pictures and I didn't map it out last weekend. First is the way the trail has been roped off as of late. Its gets tight right as your coming into the trees at the entrance of Semi-tough, causing too many people skiing too close together, and the snow get pushed off. Basically you end up with a couple of moguls with ice between and nowhere to go.

http://www.postimage.org/PquHAJr.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PquHAJr)


Now since there is plenty of room, I propose something like this.



http://www.postimage.org/aV20zXqS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV20zXqS)

[freeheel_skier]

:?:

That is why I try not to read CAD drawings/blueprints

[Lostone]

I can see that. You know they're not racing that close to the lift. Why not gie Semi-Tough skiers the extra room?

That is how they've roped it off, in the past. In fact, they've gone down to below the entrance, so you could overshoot it a touch and make your way down thru the lower trees. 8)

[BushMogulMaster]

You make a valid point, madhavok. I agree that there is plenty of room to widen it a bit. I guess I just never noticed it being as tight as you described it, but either way, it doesn't hurt to make a little more room.

[madhavok]

Can someone please show me where exactly to look for this "R"? Checked the lift / trail report Sunday am. Great Brambles was clearly marked as open. Didn't see an "R" anywhere on the trail report. So I dragged the family over on Northway yet again, and sure as sh!t Brambles and Inverness were both closed for racing.

So could someone please where on the lift / trail report I should be looking for this seemingly no existent "R"? Obviously I’ve been looking in the wrong spot, or is it just that the “R” for reserved thing just an official policy that is unofficially not used?

[BushMogulMaster]

Can someone please show me where exactly to look for this "R"? Checked the lift / trail report Sunday am. Great Brambles was clearly marked as open. Didn't see an "R" anywhere on the trail report. So I dragged the family over on Northway yet again, and sure as sh!t Brambles and Inverness were both closed for racing.

So could someone please where on the lift / trail report I should be looking for this seemingly no existent "R"? Obviously I’ve been looking in the wrong spot, or is it just that the “R” for reserved thing just an official policy that is unofficially not used?

It is printed on every lift/trail report posted at the mountain, including on the tv monitors. Isn't it on the web trail report as well? If not, that should definitely be addressed ASAP.

[Lostone]

These are on the lift/tail status reports that are posted many places, on th mountain. (Guest Services, rentals, lodge, tickets, ect.) Just happens I worked on Sunday and have the report. (It was in my bag of recycling.)

Inverness and Brambles are marked with an R where the x for open normally is.

I don't know about the web trail report, but I do know it is not on the interactive map, and I doubt the programming is in to do that, as it is yellow when closed and white when open. Not sure which color would be for racing, and that they have the option.

[madhavok]

Before I decide which mountain I am going to ski I check the lift / trail report at www.sugarbush.com (not to be confused with their interactive trail map). So now your telling me the only way to get an accurate trail report is to drive to one of the mountains and check a special printed lift / trail report? This just keeps getting more frustrating and more absurd. If you can mark a trail as being open with an "X" on the web lift / trail report then you can certainly mark one with an "R" without any special programming.

[BushMogulMaster]

Before I decide which mountain I am going to ski I check the lift / trail report at www.sugarbush.com (not to be confused with their interactive trail map). So now your telling me the only way to get an accurate trail report is to drive to one of the mountains and check a special printed lift / trail report? This just keeps getting more frustrating and more absurd. If you can mark a trail as being open with an "X" on the web lift / trail report then you can certainly mark one with an "R" without any special programming.

Lostone's programming comment was re:interactive map. Chill out a little, and perhaps suggest a solution instead of continuing to point out the problem. You've made that abundantly clear. So how would you like to see this problem corrected?

[/rant]

Having said that, I agree that it should be listed on the website. It will be addressed, I assure you.

[Tin Woodsman]

Before I decide which mountain I am going to ski I check the lift / trail report at www.sugarbush.com (not to be confused with their interactive trail map). So now your telling me the only way to get an accurate trail report is to drive to one of the mountains and check a special printed lift / trail report? This just keeps getting more frustrating and more absurd. If you can mark a trail as being open with an "X" on the web lift / trail report then you can certainly mark one with an "R" without any special programming.

Lostone's programming comment was re:interactive map. Chill out a little, and perhaps suggest a solution instead of continuing to point out the problem. You've made that abundantly clear. So how would you like to see this problem corrected?

[/rant]

Having said that, I agree that it should be listed on the website. It will be addressed, I assure you.
I'd suggest that not only should you have an R on the web report, you should have a quicknote on the bottom of the report, or on the Snow Report page, that says Such and Such trail is open but will be restricted to racers only until 2:00. that way, SB gets to claim the credit for the trail count while providing its customers with the information they need.

[Lostone]

If you can mark a trail as being open with an "X" on the web lift / trail report then you can certainly mark one with an "R" without any special programming.

That is not necessarily so. It is possible that they way they set up the program is it is open (x) or closed. (no x)

Restricted for racing might not have been on the minds of those that did the programming. I claim no knowledge of the programming, on that site, but have been involved with programming and programming decisions in past lives. If you knew how the phrase "It is just a few lines of code" can get to programmers, you'd realize the possibilities.

I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it might be more complicated than you stated. Do you really think they type in those Xs? More likely there is a Select All button and you deselect the ones that are closed, for when the mountain is mostly open, and you select only those that are open, when it isn't.

I like Tin's suggestion about the note at the bottom. In fact, I just checked the sheet I have, and it is mentioned in the Events & Notes segment. That would be a separate sheet, right next to the trail reports at most mountain locations, as listed above.

[ski_resort_observer]

Gee, all this time I thought the little (R) next to trail name meant.... if you were under 13 you could not ski it unless accompanied by an adult. :oops:

[BushMogulMaster]

Hey Lostone... FYI, I reviewed the code, and it is extremely possible for an "R" to be put in place of the "X." It's just a very simple html table, and you can input whatever character you want. Even if they do use a "select-all" type feature, anyone with even the slightest knowledge of html could hop in and throw "R's" in for the racing trails. Would take about 10 seconds at most. That is, assuming whoever is doing the website knows anything at all about html..........


For those web/programming gurus out there, the format for the table looks like this (I added the dark red comments to explain what you're seeing):


<tr valign="top">
<td width="325">LINCOLN PEAK
// Mountain name goes on this line



<table width="325" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" class="trail_border">
<tr>
<td colspan="4" class="trail_name">Valley House Double</td> // Lift name goes on this line

<td class="trail_name">Closed</td> // Lift status goes on this line
</tr>
<tr class="blue_background">
<td>Trail</td>
<td width="21"></td>
<td width="35">Open</td>
<td width="55">Groomed</td>

<td width="75">Snowmaking</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>Stein's Run</td> // Trail name goes on this line
<td>../images/admin/Expert.gif</td>
<td>X</td> // Trail status goes here... see, it would be easy to just substitute an "R" for the "X." It's only one keystroke of html. Simple.
<td></td>

<td></td>
</tr>

[madhavok]

Ski it up.

[gone.skiing]

Will provide an update next week.

I can hardly wait. :roll:

[BushMogulMaster]

Unfortunately due to important plans I could not make it up to Sugarbush this weekend.

Oddly enough I ran into someone through work who skied at Sugarbush this past Friday & Saturday with his crew.

You see I haven’t mentioned this thread or subject to anyone, so I was pretty shocked when he started bitching about racing trails that were marked as open on the website for both days. Now according to him, trails were closed at South on Friday and North on Saturday, but he didn’t remember the trail names? I don’t know if it was true or not and I certainly wasn’t going to waste any time asking him about or explaining the “R” for reserved to this Kmart regular.

I should be skiing the next 7 weekends so I’ll be checking on this but I’ll be pretty surprised if Sugarbush is regularly providing misleading information on their website.

Will provide an update next week.

Well, just have a look here: http://www.sugarbush.com/snowandtrails/liftsandtrails.asp

Notice the difference? It's taken care of. There's an "R" online now as well. There should be no further confusion, either at the resort, or online. It is plainly noted on the trail report at all locations.

[shadyjay]

Wow - now that's the perfect example of "ask and yee shall receive"
How many other resorts do that these days?

Reason #952: the Sugarbush Difference

[win]

we are going to do it.