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aejkb
01-28-2008, 06:37 AM
We saw several cars(SUVs) rolled or flipped yesterday heading home. I've seen a lot more this season, which is sad and scary. I know that these accidents are preventable(sometimes) by the driver, but based on the high number of these types of accidents,and the injuries, does anyone know why there are no guard rails in the areas that seem prone to rollovers. I can only speculate that a study shows that it is worse if a spinning car stays on the road vs. rolling over, but that doesnt seem obviously right to me.

ski_resort_observer
01-28-2008, 06:56 AM
I personally believe most of those accidents can be avoided by simply slowing down so more guardrails won't change that.

nelsapbm
01-28-2008, 09:02 AM
I agree SRO. If people would just slow down......

What time did you see all these accidents. I was northbound on I-89 to Bethel & up and over Bethel Mtn in the 3ish hour and didnt see anything.

HowieT2
01-28-2008, 11:09 AM
We saw several cars(SUVs) rolled or flipped yesterday heading home. I've seen a lot more this season, which is sad and scary. I know that these accidents are preventable(sometimes) by the driver, but based on the high number of these types of accidents,and the injuries, does anyone know why there are no guard rails in the areas that seem prone to rollovers. I can only speculate that a study shows that it is worse if a spinning car stays on the road vs. rolling over, but that doesnt seem obviously right to me.

I wouldn't assume that there has been any real evaluation of whether guardrails are warranted even where there is a history of cars leaving the roadway. Also, jersey barriers and guard rails are proven to save lives by keeping vehicles on the roadway.
Of course it is undeniable that driving slowly in slippery conditions is the best advice. Too many people see the SUVs in commercials and think they can be operated safely going 70 mph on ice. Not smart.

skibum1321
01-28-2008, 11:10 AM
There were 4 cars flipped over within a half mile stretch in Sharon last night and a couple more that were off the road. That was the worst I've ever seen it.

As for prevention, slowing down certainly helps, although this scene seemed to come out of nowhere, as the roads weren't bad up until that point. They could certainly do a better job of treating the roads between there and Northfield in order to prevent some of this. It seems that the Emergency Services savings would offset the cost of more salt.

boze
01-28-2008, 11:56 AM
Snow / ice control in I89 exits 1 through 9 is pretty bad. I've travelled that stretch (esp exits 1-3) with some frequency over the years and can state that based on my 1st hand experience.

aejkb
01-28-2008, 12:38 PM
There are guardrails in some places, but not others. The roll-overs seemed to occur where the drop off from the highway to the median is steep. Where the median is flat people just end up stuck in snow. If guard rails are impractical, maybe those steep areas can be filled with gravel to minimize the severity of the accident. No doubt that ice, speed, vehicle type, etc. are the causes of the accident, but the highway/median design seems to make those accidents much worse than necessary.

Yard Sale
01-28-2008, 01:40 PM
I don't drive any slower on ice and snow, but I do wear my ski helmet. Which obviously makes me a. . . . . . . . .wait for it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a safer driver.


****WARNING**** Senseless pot stirring for entertaiment purposes only. Please, no wagering.

Hawk
01-28-2008, 04:59 PM
Speed is not the issue for the most part. If you keep a consistent speed you are good to go. Hitting the breaks and changing lanes abruptly is what get's you in trouble. It has been my experience that people in the fast lane going 20 and not getting out of the way for faster moving vehicles causes more accidents. Now I think 70 is a bit much in snowy conditions but 50 or 55 is no problem.

shadyjay
01-28-2008, 05:00 PM
In my daily drives from Moretown to Wilmington area (Route 9) this winter, I have seen numerous vehicles flipped over/off the road/etc. Some of these occured on dry roads. Many involved were SUVs. Some were tractor trailers. Many were also out-of-staters. I'll reiterate what people have said here already: slow down, and most importantly, 4wd does not make you stop any quicker, especially on ice.

And for some reason this winter, I-91 seems to be in a lot better shape than I-89, though I've observed more accidents on 91. Doesn't make sense as there's more traffic on 89 than 91 by a long shot. Plows and associated crews have been out - sometimes they're plowing a dusting and creating more sparks than anything else.

freeheel_skier
01-28-2008, 05:55 PM
Speed is not the issue for the most part. If you keep a consistent speed you are good to go. Hitting the breaks and changing lanes abruptly is what get's you in trouble. It has been my experience that people in the fast lane going 20 and not getting out of the way for faster moving vehicles causes more accidents. Now I think 70 is a bit much in snowy conditions but 50 or 55 is no problem.

I agree. Usually the lane changers are people driving suv's, myself included.

I also see plenty of Green plates in the ditch from time to time. I've towed a couple too. People just driving to fast on the back roads.

shadyjay
01-28-2008, 07:03 PM
I've had my first-ever (and hopefully last) vehicle-in-ditch incident this winter in Moretown. So the color of plate does not dictate who ends up in a ditch.

Espec on a Thu-Fri or a Sun-Mon, there is a lot of out-of-state traffic on the interstates (well, a lot for VT), some may be "in a rush" or distracted, and can end up losing control. All it takes is a split second. Put down the cell phone in bad weather and turn off/down the kid's DVD - I mean come on already.

aejkb
01-28-2008, 07:36 PM
Speed is not the issue for the most part. If you keep a consistent speed you are good to go. Hitting the breaks and changing lanes abruptly is what get's you in trouble. It has been my experience that people in the fast lane going 20 and not getting out of the way for faster moving vehicles causes more accidents. Now I think 70 is a bit much in snowy conditions but 50 or 55 is no problem. Good point. Its clear also that after braking and starting to spin, people panic, then over-correct and as soon as the top heavy SUV hits the edge of the embankment that they roll over or land on the roof. Nevertheless, ive seen about a dozen on the roof, or side, this year. I dont see that type of accident nearly as often in NH and so I assume that the Vermont roadway with the big deep medians is part of the problem that causes the rollover vs. just going off the roadway and needing to be pulled out. Im sure the Vermont residents not agree with my observation and think its the typical yahoo Mass/NY/CT SUV driver (probably true since those are the predominant vehicles on the highways on the weekends).

greenmtnboy
01-28-2008, 08:21 PM
I drive the interstate from Burlington to White River area all the time Subaru with four snows. I always slow down when I see the black ice. It's all about speed. If you take a look at the truckers off the road, 80% of those are canadian drivers. There is not a lot of snow left along the interstate to hold the vehicles from rolling. I heard from someone from Burlington that Saturday morning was a nightmare getting to the mountain too. Quick snow and everything iced up quickly. I counted 11 spots that I could see where cars went off between Waterbury and Burlington.

Lostone
01-28-2008, 08:34 PM
Moved to Misc. 8)

Strat
01-29-2008, 07:25 AM
It's definitely dangerous out there. There's never any shame in doing 55 (or even 45) if conditions warrant it, and playing it safe is always a good plan. It does make you wonder if those involved in many of the rollovers were in sedans rather than SUV's if they would've experienced the same thing (as a result of less overconfidence more than different vehicle shape/center of mass)...

MntMan4Bush
01-29-2008, 09:11 AM
I don't know. I think sometimes the people who drive too slow, you know like the they're acting like the Grand Marshall at the Rose Bowl Parade can cause just as many accidents because someone driving at the speed limit or just below might come up on them a bit quicker then they expected and have to apply the breaks a bit more then necessary. I mean 55 is OK, but when you start looking at 45 and 35 then you're gonna cause just as much harm unless we're talking white knuckle white out conditions or any other serious dumpings. Personally I think that if they were in a sedan I'll bet there would be the same number of accidents, just less rollovers. The high center of gravity is a beotch when cutting hard on the wheel. I know plenty of people that regardless of what kind of vehicle they're in they still drive like A-holes.

freeheel_skier
01-29-2008, 12:40 PM
I know plenty of people that regardless of what kind of vehicle they're in they still drive like A-holes.


Amen to that. :shock:

boze
01-29-2008, 02:37 PM
Two words: Snow tires. More words:
Typical stock 'all-season' tires too often give false sense of security even though they are frequently way too much of a compromise in terms of design, materials (esp. rubber compounds) and performance when itmatters most.

Relying on All-seasons is generally OK for the bulk of the weather the flatlands receive, but a different story for those who often find themselves North of MA.

As with skking it's not just having the right equipment (though that helps), it's also about having the requisite experience/patience/skill.

Windshield Ski Bum
01-29-2008, 03:00 PM
Two words: Snow tires.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TIRES Well sort of, experience is a major part of it also.
Most "all season" radials or snows that most cars come with aren't worth s##t in freezing rain, or a quick snow blitz that we see on 89.

Studded snows (all four) or blizzacks are mandatory for any car/truck/suv in my fleet.

You can hear my son's studded truck coming 1/4 a mile away, but you can't put that s10 into a skid if you wanted to (believe me, I tried)

My Handle says it all. I drive 450 miles every weekend for the benefit of skiing our fabulous mountains.

Lets face it, If it's raining in CT, snowing in the MRV, it's going to suck somewhere in between. Good tires are a excellent investment.

madhavok
01-29-2008, 04:12 PM
I'd definitely pass on getting true snow tires because they all have crappy speed ratings. Not to say I wouldn't consider a winter performance tire, if I needed new tires but in reality all season radials get the job done. I drive 662 miles every weekend and they have never failed me (knock on wood). This includes a 12 hour trip in a blizzard with major accumulation on the roads.

Where and when were these cars flipped over because I didn't see any? I got on at I-89 exit 3 at about 6:00pm, and the roads seemed fine. I was actually making great time (as usual), until I hit the traffic jam.

boze
01-29-2008, 04:58 PM
Snow tires have come a long way in the 25+ years I've been buying tires for my cars. For straight-line performance nearly any all-season tire in decent shape will do OK in light to moderate snow. It's the turning-at-speed and stopping performance that separate the Winter ties from the all seasons - as well as deep snow traction ie 6"+. No comparison in my personal experience, and that includes several popular all season's...not to mention the independent tests run by the typical auto-enthusiast and consumer product 'zines.

For the past 5 years I've gone for 'performance' snow tires ie H- or V-rated for my sedan. They are a few more bucks to be sure but you get much better dry pavement handling. For me, this is critical as my driving habits do not readily tolerate any 'sway' or 'mushiness' which is typical of regular snow tires. This is due to the softer rubber compounds used to keep the tire more pliable/'sticky' in the colder temps; in snow tires, this compond is often also mixed with silica for extra traction. With performance snows , the sidewalls often get extra reinforcement to offset the affect of the softer rubber. The two models now on my cars are below. I've found the H-rated (130 mph) Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D to handle 90% as well as the performance summer tires I have on my '07 Acura TL-S...and those summer tires are nothing short of amazing. For our Pacifica, I use a Q-rated (99mph) Bridgestone's Blizzak DM-Z3, since the family AWD Pacifica is not (often) being driven harder than 75mph. Even though these are Q-rated, they easily out-perform the stock Michellin all seasons it came with regardless of whether the roads are wet, dry or snow-covered. And treadwear on both seems to be decent after 3-4k miles on each set (their softer rubber wears fatster)

Ok, so that's a lot about tires. Let's just say I thoroughly research the more important purchases we make - and tires on the cars my kids are driven in easliy qualify for that extra effort.

MntMan4Bush
01-29-2008, 05:33 PM
Bah....... Our 2004 Acura TLS has some serious racing slicks. I'm talking baloney skin treads that rip asphalt and leave cops stranded at the lights choking on donut crumbs.......

Seriously though the performance tires we have on our TLS have handled pretty well even in the snow. I think prior to our purchase of a Jeep we got it up the Roxbury Gap Road all but twice and it had more to do with bottoming out in spring mud ruts. (not a lot of clearance let me tell you.). I think snow tires make a large difference and certainly make things easier, but a good set of all seasons can get you through some tough spots. I also had a long drive last season (8 hours from Boston) with some white knuckle areas and after the traffic cleared I was able to motor along at about 50-55 in the fast lane with no issues even though it was still dumping (On my 4 wheel drive Jeep with nice all seasons). It's kind of like sneaking up on a lion. No sudden moves.

I think what happened to a lot of people on Saturday was that the roads visually appeared fine and then out of no where they slicked up so no one was suspecting a rough ride and wasn't driving as cautiously as they otherwise might have had they known. I don't have a lot of experience with snow tires, but apart from a set of chains I'm not sure much helps you against black ice.

Windshield Ski Bum
01-29-2008, 08:25 PM
I'd definitely pass on getting true snow tires because they all have crappy speed ratings.

That's why you need summer tires and winter tires. summer=performance, winter=traction to feed the addiction
My blizzaks all have Q or R ratings. 100mph is far faster than I intend to drive.

Windshield Ski Bum
01-29-2008, 08:34 PM
Snow tires have come a long way in the 25+ years I've been buying tires for my cars. For straight-line performance nearly any all-season tire in decent shape will do OK in light to moderate snow. It's the turning-at-speed and stopping performance that separate the Winter ties from the all seasons

Let's just say I thoroughly research the more important purchases we make - and tires on the cars my kids are driven in easliy qualify for that extra effort.


I like the way you think :D The only thing is now I have two kids driving also, so that makes four sets of killer tires. I have this foolish idea that my kids should have tires at least as good as mine. $$$$

jwt
01-30-2008, 09:20 AM
Have to agree with Boze and WSB here - it makes a huge difference with dedicated snow tires. Blizzacks or those Dunlops are quite a road handling tire set on dry roads as well. And you do pay for that. Blizzacks do wear much faster, never get more than 30K out of them, while the Gilslaveds wear better, they are louder, and don't handle quite as well.

Granted these are on a Saab 900, but with any of the above I have never been turned back on Rox Gap in 20 years I have been driving it.

All that said, a very good driver can make it work with all seasons on paved roads. Nothing trumps a great driver.

I got an MDX with Michelins, and my wife actually prefers the 900 in snow, although you better be good staying on top of ruts on Carrie Howe or Rox/Gap. Gets the adrelaline going fo the the trees too!

As long as you have two sets of wheels, it is a matter of $40 and 15 minutes at the local garage to switch off on Nov and April.
The gripiest tires I have ever had were those Halkepalitas ( Nokia) with studs! Holy cow. But you needed headphones on 495/89 at even 65 MPH. Nothing could stop them, epsecially on a Saab 9000 standard shift.

Where do you guys get your tires? I sometimes use Tire Rack, other times, find them on craigslist/Want Ad with 3-5K on them for 1/2 price.

boze
01-30-2008, 10:38 AM
Last season my 07 TLS could not even make it up the road into the Snowcreek parking lot with an inch or two of new snow...nominal space to make a 'running start', and all the usual tricks culed from 30 yrs New England winter driving proved ineffective eg low gear, zig-zag turns, etc.

Anyway, I use TireRack . com for pricing, then beat up the local Town Fair Tire folks using that knowledge. I usually call a Town Fair Tire shop that's located in a town that's a bit off-the-beaten-path as they often offer you the best deal soonest (saves time & effort). I live in Southern Fairfield County and folks charge accordingly higher prices. Savings tend to be 30-40 / tire so it adds up esp when buying multiple sets.

Love that line, MM4B, " ...kind of like sneaking up on a lion. No sudden moves."

Let's hope the upcoming precip gets & stays frozen - - driving conditions could be real dicey come Fri.

aejkb
01-30-2008, 12:15 PM
Two words: Snow tires.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TIRES Well sort of, experience is a major part of it also.
Most "all season" radials or snows that most cars come with aren't worth s##t in freezing rain, or a quick snow blitz that we see on 89.

Studded snows (all four) or blizzacks are mandatory for any car/truck/suv in my fleet.

You can hear my son's studded truck coming 1/4 a mile away, but you can't put that s10 into a skid if you wanted to (believe me, I tried)

My Handle says it all. I drive 450 miles every weekend for the benefit of skiing our fabulous mountains.

Lets face it, If it's raining in CT, snowing in the MRV, it's going to suck somewhere in between. Good tires are a excellent investment. You are absolutely correct. I recall reading that front wheel drive with snow tires is better for winter driving than 4WD w/ all seasons and my experience w/ Blizzaks confirms that theory. Im wondering about studded snows; supposedly they are great with snow packed roads, but are bad on ice/wet, etc. because the studs minimize the tires ground contact--is that right?

jkvt
01-30-2008, 02:17 PM
Two words: Snow tires.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TIRES Well sort of, experience is a major part of it also.
Most "all season" radials or snows that most cars come with aren't worth s##t in freezing rain, or a quick snow blitz that we see on 89.

Studded snows (all four) or blizzacks are mandatory for any car/truck/suv in my fleet.

You can hear my son's studded truck coming 1/4 a mile away, but you can't put that s10 into a skid if you wanted to (believe me, I tried)

My Handle says it all. I drive 450 miles every weekend for the benefit of skiing our fabulous mountains.

Lets face it, If it's raining in CT, snowing in the MRV, it's going to suck somewhere in between. Good tires are a excellent investment. You are absolutely correct. I recall reading that front wheel drive with snow tires is better for winter driving than 4WD w/ all seasons and my experience w/ Blizzaks confirms that theory. Im wondering about studded snows; supposedly they are great with snow packed roads, but are bad on ice/wet, etc. because the studs minimize the tires ground contact--is that right?

My experience has been really good with studded snows. They grip nicely on ice and snow of all variations, and with 4wd it feels like you can climb walls. I would think that they would grip better on ice than just a straight now tire (but not as well as chains). Not sure about wet/clear pavement other than wearing them down quicker. Oh and the humm they make on dry pavement does take some getting used to.

jkvt

MikeTrainor
02-10-2008, 09:47 PM
I saw 3 cars off the road on 89 South today between exit 8 and 9. Two SUV's and one pick up truck. As mentioned before if people would just slow down in the snow a lot of it would be prevented.