Snow Making???

[MntMan4Bush]

So I know this is a sore subject with some, but I have to ask. What's up with the snow making at Sugarbush. This weekend nothing was blowing on Saturday until about closing time when Stein's started throwing snow, but you can't tell me that making snow would have been a bad idea. Now despite the crowds and the fact that the Slidebrook Chair wasn't open to help disperse them to North (No one wants to jump on a bus) I had a great weekend. Heck I was skiing so how could I possibly have a bad day. The bumps on Twist kept me entertained all weekend long. But the Bush needs to step up its snow making. If you looked at K-Mart this weekend they would have had snow blowing all weekend long on more then just one trail at a time (let alone just one trail). Don't anyone give me guff about how we don't want to be like Killing-me-a-ton. No one wants to separate themselves more from there then me. I hate just about everything about that place, except for the fact that they turn the guns on when they're needed. I'm not saying we need to blast full bore all the time, but I think the snow making has been lacking this year (and the past couple). It's cold enough, let's get them ripping.

One man's humble opinion is all, but I heard a few others griping about it so figured I'd throw a post up and see what the deal was.

Thanks

[gone.skiing]

I do not think guns were on anywhere on LP yesterday (Monday). I was wondering the same thing: cold, dry weather, why not make snow on a few trails?

[canonizer]

I think this is a very sore subject on the mountain and I suspect it has quite a bit to do with utility prices these days. I had a conversation a few weeks ago with someone who used to be the director of operations at a VT ski resort and, from what he said, snow making was the biggest expense when he retired from the biz 15 years ago. He could not fathom what it would cost these days in an era of very inflated utilities.

Sugarbush is clearly running on a shoestring these days. While that's important (profits mean we'll have a mountain for more years, something some other VT areas can't say), skimping on services while charging $75 tickets or whatever they cost these days isn't going to win a lot of fan favorites.

[007]

Wonder if it is just the cost, or is something else preventing more snowmaking from happening right now?
A little blast on Rip Chord this Friday would be appreciated, although the wind is definitely a factor.

Anyone been to North lately to check out snowmaking there?
How's FIS holding up?

[WWF-VT]

If you looked at K-Mart this weekend they would have had snow blowing all weekend long on more then just one trail at a time (let alone just one trail). Don't anyone give me guff about how we don't want to be like Killing-me-a-ton. No one wants to separate themselves more from there then me. I hate just about everything about that place, except for the fact that they turn the guns on when they're needed.

Funny...there are a few threads on Killingtonzone moaning about the fact that they weren't making snow this weekend ! Sugarbush is close to 100% open vs 60+% at Killington. The guns were on Steins all day on Sunday, most of the groomers at Lincoln Peak were in great shape.

[jwt]

understand your take MMFB, but I could hear the guns raging from my house Sat night. Although a $72 ticket might seem steep, I thought Saturdays conditions were great with the 5 inches of snow Thurs/Fri, and I much prefer natural snow to MM, if and when possible. Just another reason I come here, natural as possible.

I also believe most people will agree, that skiing thru guns is no picnic, and if you can operate a bit more on the natural side, save some dough,( and energy) and still offer very decent skiing considering what happened the week before, we came out alright. If it were the week before Feb vacation, i think you see a different story - preparation for crowds - which were non-exsistent at North Sat.

I can't even imagine the tickets at any resort really pay for ops. . . . . .at least in full. . .gotta have RE development for long term stability, and now that seems to be a real question mark for the near future.

All that said, I can see why some would expect all the guns ablazin' as soon as the temps allow.
1982 ticket $22 gas $1, house $70K, auto $10K
2008 " $72 " $3 " $250K " $30K All seems about right - unless we do what we do with milk! Subsidize!

[MntMan4Bush]

LOL. You heard the "gun" raging Saturday night. Singular. Well as far as I could tell it was only going on Stein's (and yes I do understand it is more then one gun going on the line. Was just trying for a joke. This is specifically tailored to the person or people who were about to let me know that according to NSMAONUS - National Snow Making Association Of Northeastern United States - it is prudent to have a gun placed every 12.9 meters unless the slope of the hill is greater then 27 degree in which case every 12.75 and it would be impossible for only one gun to be running on Stein's especially since the system is known to pump out 3.79 barr of pressure and a single high pressure nozzle operating on......etc....... )

In all seriousness though I have always thought the Bush has been lacking in snow making. I personally ski more of the natural trails, i.e. Castlerock Chair, Twist, Spillsville......., but my wife is more a groomer skier and she was less then impressed. Now given the fact that she married me it leaves me to believe she doesn't have very high standards so I put stock in her assessment. MLK Jr. Weekend is a pretty big weekend so I would have figured that more guns would have been going. Riding up in the chairs I spoke with a umber of people who were wondering why they weren't blowing more. I always like to see the Bush doing well. While some people look at long lines and complain I honestly think we're spoiled and have it pretty good considering crowds. The holiday crowding is to be expected, so when I see long lines I know it means money is going into SB and I'm happy for the mountain. However if people don't get the best for top dollar they'll take it elsewhere. Just having the most trails open doesn't make it the best. They have to have ample quality snow.

I also don't particularly enjoy skiing through guns, but it's a necessary evil to get trails to optimal conditions. Plus they wouldn't be able to run guns on every trail so there would always be options for those who want to avoid the guns. I saw plenty of people skiing Stein's while they were on. Birch would have been a nice option to have roaring and maybe Ripcord. Then when those got a good coating move them on over to other trails. I don't run a mountain though so I'm just pointing out my concerns as a consumer/skier and was wondering what was going on and my statements in no way contain any educated observations that hold any merit in a conversation based on facts......

Lastly the lines at North were small on Saturday because Slidebrook was down. If it was open I can think of at least 10 people from my crew personally that would have been over there.(and no doubt many more who were at Lincoln) I hate taking the shuttle and would rather be blowing in the wind on the chair to get over. That was a bit of a disappointment and one of many times I've noticed the chair down this season (plentiful snow underfoot in the woods or not). But that's another thread........

[bumpcrasher]

Point well taken jwt! If its a matter of saving some $$ the mountain did not NEED to have the guns blazing this weekend. So far, we have been blessed with enough of the real stuff, that almost the entire mountain is open.

Plus, the mountain was in better shape than I expected. However, during the week, it looks like they made snow on only Birch Run, Sleeper, and Inverness. During the weekend, there was only snowmaking on Stein's and nothing at North. Judging by the crowds on those trails, it looked like a lot of people made there way to those trails because of the snowmaking. I usually stick on the natural trail as well, yet it is great to have an option of hitting something like Exterminator, Cliffs, or Ripcord when they get bumped up with under the guns. All with MMFB, I too thought they could have been making snow on more than one trail (Stein's) this weekend considering the good turn-out we had.

[Lostone]

I was trying to remember Saturday. Then I did. I went to North. :lol: That is why I don't remember what trails they were making snow on. I'm pretty sure Friday they were making snow on Birch and Sleeper. Was that not so on Saturday?

On Sunday morning, there was evidence of them having made snow for short times to do patching around areas. There were a few around the base and Downspout had been hit. (Likely badly needed.)

As for Stein's... Anyone try that snow? I'd heard from Win and others, that it was great snow. I wasn't able to try it until around 1:30, when I had my free time. Icy getting in, but after the first few bumps... What great snow! You could almost fly! http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album38/icon_spread.gif

8)

[boze]

Given the temps and the high efficiency nozzles I expected the guns to be a'blazing - if not during the day then definately at night. There were plenty of trails in need of a fresh coat, and many to choose from where wind would be less of a factor. Was at LP Sat and ME Sun & Mon. Never waited more than 60 seconds at ME chairs, but mtn definately skiied narrow given the roped off trails. Found a bit of untracked in Semi-tough woods on Monday, 4-5" of fluff on top of a firm crust.

So while we had some true New England conditions, a significant snowmaking effort would've really let the mtns shine for such a large crowd of potential repeats...IMHO.

Energy costs? Conservationism? Over-confidence in the forecasted 4-6" for each of Sat & Sun nights that never materialized? Who knows. But more snowmaking could've made a noticable difference this weekend, to a great many people.

[canonizer]

If it were any other weekend besides MLK I could understand holding off on expenses. But the big 3 are the christmas week, MLK, and presidents. If the goal is to impress crowds that wouldn't necessarily be at Sugarbush for 2-day weekend trips, I'd describe the weekend as a mild failure.

spend $ to make $...

[djd66]

I have to say - I skied 2 weeks ago (1/5) before the big melt down and I skied the weekend after (1/12) and this past weekend. I personally was impressed with how well the mtn. recovered. I thought they were making snow in all the right places and grooming did a great job to get the mtn back into shape. My only issue was Slidebrook being down this weekend. I don't know what the permits say, but I thought it was lame that they couldn't run the lift b/c there isn't enough snow under it. LP was very crowded, I would have headed over to North if the lift was open. Will it be open this weekend?

[gone.skiing]

Steins was great Sunday and Monday. Once you got past the entrance it was soft all the way down. Would have been nice to have that kind of snow on a few more trails. For average visitor mountain is skiing very hard. I could not recommend it to my friends who only take a trip or two per year.

[Tin Woodsman]

Couldn't agree more. I talked about this with a few friends who had noticed it as well. Gosh, even if you were concerned about people being annoyed by skiing through the snowmaking, then why not take a stab at Sunrise when it was pretty much closed the whole weekend, and looking pretty bare/ugly. Regardless, the enthusiastic crowds on Steins when they were burying it put the lie to any excuse centered on the notion that people get turned off by snowmaking on trails they are skiing.

[Bubba]

#1 Itwas MLK weekend, it's going to be busy, DUH!!!!!!!
#2 It was cold and windy. I wouldn't have wanted to be on the slidebrook chair in that weather.
#3 What's wrong with the bus?
#4 Most people that start the day skiing at LP prefer skiing at LP.
#5 Sunrise isn't really a "snowmaking" trail
#6 If you have that many people skiing on the groomers, it doesn't matter how much snow you have blown on them. It's going to ski off!
#7 Ever ride a chairlift that you have snow guns pointed at you all the way up?(remember ASC?)
#8 the lifties did a great job getting everybody through the lines on Saturday. Thank them!
If you don't like the lift lines, go to France, then come back and see what you think.


It's SNOWING NOW!
Everything is getting really creamy, soft and fun. Yes, even more fun than it was this past weekend. The woods are beginning to open up again.
I was at Okemo 1/7 & 8. For a Mt with so many snow guns and a reputation for "the best snow in the east", they were in REALLY tough shape. The Bush had WAY better snow.
They have been blowing on Jester, Organgrinder, Birch, Sleeper.They've done a fantastic job getting the Mt back into shape.
Be happy!
Relax and enjoy what we have.

Be happy!
Relax and enjoy what we have.

What? And not complain? That's crazy talk! :lol:

[BushMogulMaster]

Yeah, Bubba's right about Sunrise. There aren't hydrants over there, so the idea of making snow on it isn't really feasible. Well... I guess you could quadruple-hose from the other side, but then you'd have to close Morning Star because there'd be hoses across it. And have you ever tried riming out a couple hundred feet of snowmaking hose?

Anyway, I wasn't there, so I really can't comment. But there are a thousand and one reasons they could have chosen or been forced not to make snow on Saturday. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't with a lot of folks. You get the ones who complain that they weren't making snow, and you get the ones that complain that they WERE making snow. There's no way to please everyone with daytime snowmaking, especially on a busy weekend.

Could have been a power curtailment. I'm not 100% familiar with the setup at Sugarbush, but most ski areas that make snow are at the mercy of their power company. If demand becomes too high, ski areas are often the first to be hit with a power curtailment.

Wind. Bubba said it was cold and windy. If it was really windy, then that could have been an additional aggravating factor. Ever try to run a low-e tower gun in the wind? Most of the droplets would evaporate/sublimate, and the remaining snow would land in the woods. Again, I wasn't there, so I can't comment as to whether that was really a factor or not. But it certainly could have been.

Money? I don't think that had anything to do with it. But if anyone's interested, Bob Ackland was quoted several years back ('99 or '00, IIRC) in the book "Downhill Slide" saying that Sugarbush's snowmaking bills under ASC were in the range of $300,000/month. You do the math with inflation, etc.

Re: making snow on multiple trails........ that also depends on a number of factors, not the least of which is water and air availability (which are each dependent on several OTHER factors).

All I'm trying to say is this: think about all the possibilities when you have a complaint like this. It's not all about money. This is a difficult business to operate for a multitude of reasons.

[BushMogulMaster]

Re: Slidebrook

Say what you want now, but if you were stuck on that chair (due to a mechanical difficulty) in the cold and the wind, and they couldn't get the sleds and the cat through the roads for an evac, you'd be pretty pissed. Maybe frostbitten. Maybe hypothermic. Maybe worse.

Re: Slidebrook

Say what you want now, but if you were stuck on that chair (due to a mechanical difficulty) in the cold and the wind, and they couldn't get the sleds and the cat through the roads for an evac, you'd be pretty pissed. Maybe frostbitten. Maybe hypothermic. Maybe worse.

You could always repel down:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X5r5366xWgo

:shock:

[HowieT2]

[quote="Bubba"]#1 Itwas MLK weekend, it's going to be busy, DUH!!!!!!!
#2 It was cold and windy. I wouldn't have wanted to be on the slidebrook chair in that weather.
#3 What's wrong with the bus?
#4 Most people that start the day skiing at LP prefer skiing at LP.
#5 Sunrise isn't really a "snowmaking" trail
#6 If you have that many people skiing on the groomers, it doesn't matter how much snow you have blown on them. It's going to ski off!
#7 Ever ride a chairlift that you have snow guns pointed at you all the way up?(remember ASC?)
#8 the lifties did a great job getting everybody through the lines on Saturday. Thank them!
If you don't like the lift lines, go to France, then come back and see what you think.


It's SNOWING NOW!
Everything is getting really creamy, soft and fun. Yes, even more fun than it was this past weekend. The woods are beginning to open up again.
I was at Okemo 1/7 & 8. For a Mt with so many snow guns and a reputation for "the best snow in the east", they were in REALLY tough shape. The Bush had WAY better snow.
They have been blowing on Jester, Organgrinder, Birch, Sleeper.They've done a fantastic job getting the Mt back into shape.

I found the groomers to be in good shape. Much better than I had feared. They were hard, but I think that was attributable to the temps. I don't know where they needed to add snow, when they can make all they need during this week. The only bare spots I recall were on the natural trails. Given the extended forecast of low temps, why not wait to do it. Sunrise was one of the few trails closed.

As for the SBX, it did look thin/bare under the lift which, I assume, is why it wasn't running.

[MntMan4Bush]

Say Chowder Frenchy. 8)

If your comments were towards me with regard to the lines read my entire post. I think at the Bush we have it pretty good for most of the weekends and everyone expects crowds on holidays so it was no big deal, but the Bush's job should be to mitigate crowds to the best of their ability. The Slidebrook Chair being down was not in my opinion the best of their ability. Let's even take Saturday out of the picture. That chair has been down more times then up (OK this is obviously an exaggeration so don't get the log book out. It's been quite a few weekends) in conditions where there was no wind and the woods were loaded. If you don't want to sit on the chair you don't have to. It's your choice. Personally I dress appropriately for cold days and the ride over would have been fine. You're throwing in a special circumstance that the lift might shut down. Well if that happens on any lift I'm not going to be too happy, but what can you do? Base your decision to ride a chair on something that happens a fraction of a percent of the time. In fact we haven't even heard a response that this was the reason (not enough snow for evac). How about the other times this year the chair has been down on a Saturday when there was ample snow in teh wods? As for the bus, I don't care to be jammed in a bus when it can be avoided. It is certainly a convenience for coming out of slidebrook to have it there, but as for heading to North I prefer the chair. I never have to wait (unless the chair is down) and when I land at North I can immediately ski. My friend was at South and took the shuttle over and he said with the waiting and ride over it took 45 minutes to just get to GMX, then the ride up before he could ski. Not a good use of time. Certainly not the bus drivers fault given the crowds and exactly what I would have expected (hence why I did not take it), but if the chair was open it would have been a non-issue.

Now that I've digressed off thread let's get back to the topic at hand. I think that perhaps Sunrise might have been mis-stated. In fact let's not even name trails here because obviously not all of us here know where all the water lines run to directly. I don't think anyone would advocate closing a trail to run hoses across it so let's be realistic. Given any number of nameless trails that snow could be made on, why was Stein's the only one? People skiing it seemed to enjoy the snow and ignored the guns blasted. Those who didn't want to get hit with guns avoided it and even if SB was blowing on 4 more trails there would have been options for them to avoid the guns. Let's even take this a step further and ignore Saturday and blowing during the day. I feel that in general SB comes up short blowing snow compared to other mountains. There it's said. Now we take the argument of where water can be run to, where hoses go and if someone gets caught in a snowy haze while riding a lift. In general I feel that SB could be doing more snow making at any unspecified point in time across any unmentioned trail.

Lastly I don't believe I ever blamed the lifties or intimated that they didn't do a great job. In fact I may be one of the few people that thanks every lifty every time they place a fixed grip chair at my backside as opposed to letting it nail the back of my legs like you might find at other mountains. They do in fact do a great job and if anything about my posting indicated otherwise then it was certainly not intentional (and I'd challenge you to find it. Otherwise great job trying to make me look like the bad guy) :wink:

[boze]

To the casual observer i.e. a non-ski-mountain-owner/operator like myself, there seemed to be plenty of reasons to blow snow rather than sit it out.

You can blow snow to add base & improve conditions not just cover bare spots.
You can blow snow during the evening & early AM grooming times when the mtn is otherwise empty.
You can blow great snow at those low, low temps.
You can find many trails where wind not an issue (and for the most part, apart from a few gusts, Sat & Sun were mild wind-wise at 8-12mph).
You can blow snow to show regulars and visitors the love, and make an impression. The guns need not be on in the day for folks to know new snow was laid down.

Or, given the relatively decent conditions, you can decide to conserve your 'ammo' and give some of the ops crew a few nights off to be with their friends/family on a holiday weekend...groomers have lives too. :wink:

Heck, I'm back Superbowl weekend w/ my son so we hope the Ops team re-charge both those lines and their spirits, and blast away! :D

[Go Figure]

Maybe the fact that the low-e tower guns are useless in the wind[windy alot a the bush]they should be supplanted by power guns.

If you don't like skiing under the guns pick another trail.

BMM Sunrise has had hydrants since 1995 thanks to Les and Our friends at ASC. It would help to make some snow here as it was 90% grass on the upper
pitch and 6-8" does not go far on the East face.A good quanity of snow here makes for great mid winter corn skiing on calm sunny days.

The shuttle sucks as a way back and forth as You end up wasting too much time waiting and stair climbing.

As long as the guns are dry I would rather ski under them than on slick scraped off trails.

Mountain was busy Sat. Sunday, not so much,hardly to the road. Monday ghost town.

[Go Figure]

I forgot 1 thing!
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.GO GIANTS :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

[win]

Here are the facts. Last week we spent more money on snowmaking than any week that we have owned the Resort. On one day alone our bill was $25,000 We have made more early snow than ever. We have an excellent base even after the January thaw. We have spent considerably more than what we have budgeted even with the 13 feet of natural snow that we have received.

GMP is our source of electricity, and they can curtail us on any given day which they normally do when temperatures are very cold. Sometimes we can not run. Other times we can buy into the spot market at up to double the cost. Last week we blew snow in preparaton of the weekend and elected to blow only on Stein's during the Day to make it more pleasant for the guest. Prior to the weekend we blew on Birch, Sleeper, Easy Rider, and others. At ME we blew on Cruiser, Inverness and Brambles to get it in shape for GMVS which was not only important for them and for everyone else.

Slidebrook did not run for two reasons. There was not enough snow cover to set in to the towers and on Sunday and Monday the temperatures were too cold. If wind chill is below, we will not run it for safety reasons. If any skied Birch and Stein's were we had most recently blown snow, you would have enjoyed it. I did!

One more thing, Djd66, it isn't lame. Safety is our first concern, and if we can not get sleds and snowmobiles safely through the slidebrook roads to the lifts towers, we are not going to run Slibebrook. This lift is two miles long and if anything went wrong a lift evacuation is a significant event which we are prepared for. Access to the lift and temperatures dictate when we run the lift. We obviously want it to run because it does more people around, but we will never compromise on safety!

[BushMogulMaster]

BMM Sunrise has had hydrants since 1995 thanks to Les and Our friends at ASC.

Not saying I doubt you, but are you sure about that??????

[ski_it]

Sunrise does have hydrants. Snow was blown on it in early February last year.

Stein's was awesome this weekend.

[Hawk]

BMM Sunrise has had hydrants since 1995 thanks to Les and Our friends at ASC.

Not saying I doubt you, but are you sure about that??????

There are definitely pipes and hydrants on Sunrise. I went from Morning Star to Sunrise in the woods on Sunday and had to jump over the pipe. :shock:

I woke up on Sunday morning and did not see the steam rising from the cooling tower at the snow making building. At that point I had a feeling that the power company had a hand in the decision not to make snow because the conditions were perfect. It was 10 degrees and no wind. Personally I feel that the more snowmaking the better. It makes the current situation better for all and in the long run it will extend the season. As much as people are against it for various reasons the fact is that the more man made the longer it will last. It is a more durable product in the spring. Don't get me wrong, my first love is Mother Nature’s product. I would trade 100 days of snowmaking for one 4 foot dump but I guess we will have to wait a little for that. :)

One observation I have to make is that Steins and Spring Fling seem a little light compared to last year. I was hoping that the mountain would bury them so that we could ski Cinco de Mayo again this year. 8)

Here are the facts. Last week we spent more money on snowmaking than any week that we have owned the Resort. On one day alone our bill was $25,000 We have made more early snow than ever. We have an excellent base even after the January thaw. We have spent considerably more than what we have budgeted even with the 13 feet of natural snow that we have received.

GMP is our source of electricity, and they can curtail us on any given day which they normally do when temperatures are very cold. Sometimes we can not run. Other times we can buy into the spot market at up to double the cost. Last week we blew snow in preparaton of the weekend and elected to blow only on Stein's during the Day to make it more pleasant for the guest. Prior to the weekend we blew on Birch, Sleeper, Easy Rider, and others. At ME we blew on Cruiser, Inverness and Brambles to get it in shape for GMVS which was not only important for them and for everyone else.

Slidebrook did not run for two reasons. There was not enough snow cover to set in to the towers and on Sunday and Monday the temperatures were too cold. If wind chill is below, we will not run it for safety reasons. If any skied Birch and Stein's were we had most recently blown snow, you would have enjoyed it. I did!

One more thing, Djd66, it isn't lame. Safety is our first concern, and if we can not get sleds and snowmobiles safely through the slidebrook roads to the lifts towers, we are not going to run Slibebrook. This lift is two miles long and if anything went wrong a lift evacuation is a significant event which we are prepared for. Access to the lift and temperatures dictate when we run the lift. We obviously want it to run because it does more people around, but we will never compromise on safety!

Well, there you have it. I really hope that explanation is sufficient for all you know-it-all armchair ski resort operators. :? Here's a novel idea: let's try to post more trip reports, pics and videos here and less whining. :roll:

[HowieT2]

The cost of electricity is clearly a significant factor in snowmaking decisions and in the operating costs of the Mtn. One would have to say that these costs are much more likely to get worse in the future then better. I certainly would never want to see a giant windmill anywhere near SB. However, is it feasible and/or advantageous to place small windmills on the lift towers? There are a lot of lift towers and if you combine lots of little windmills maybe they could generate enough power to make it worth it.

[Bubba]

Well, there you have it. I really hope that explanation is sufficient for all you know-it-all armchair ski resort operators. :? Here's a novel idea: let's try to post more trip reports, pics and videos here and less whining. :roll:




Bingo!

[Hawk]

GMP is our source of electricity, and they can curtail us on any given day which they normally do when temperatures are very cold.

Win, the restrictions don't seem fair. You guys are their biggest client in the valley and you don't get any benefit it seems. Hell you had to plow them out last year because they couldn't even do that.

Has anybody looked into the cost/benefit of building a generator plant at the base? I know you guys don't like to burn diesel but at least you have control over your own destiny. I have built a couple generator plants and one of the big benefits is you can sell the power at peak times back to the grid. I'm sure that it has been discussed. Just my 2 cents. :wink:

[MntMan4Bush]

Greg and Bubba, as much as I appreciate your attempts to stifle my questions while you sit back smugly, this forum has worked because people ask questions and state their opinions instead of taking a spin on the bandwagon. As much as I may seem like an armchair Operation manager to you, to Sugarbush I am a customer and my opinion matters just as much as yours or anyone else's. Last year I got in 30 days which may not be as much as others, but certainly I'm not a horrible customer when you add in all the beer I drink so I would think SB would be inclined to hear what I say. Now if it's OK with you I'll continue........ :?

Thanks Win for candidly answering my questions. I can understand about power restrictions imposed on you by GMP. However blowing at night should have an advantage because there's less drain on the grid. You probably do this already and it no news to you. My question I guess is in general I feel that SB blows significantly less then other mountains. I used my observations from last weekend as an example, and perhaps it wasn't such a good one. There have been several other weekends this year (though given all the natural not too many) and over years past where I've questioned why the Bush hasn't been blowing away while other mountains were. This may be also an observation on what is budgeted for as well and not just what operationally happens. Now Sugarbush is far superior then other mountains in so many aspects in my mind, but I think this is one area we are behind in. Maybe I just can't see all the effort put in to snow making. Do you have any data on this? Am I completely off base? I have a Killing-me-a-ton convert in my house who constantly brings up how much snow they blow (and obviously a lot of money is "blown" as well) and I cant argue that perception.

With regard to the SBX again perhaps my use of last weekend as an example wasn't the best, although without being able to shift some of the crowd its absence was certainly noticed. Two or three weekends before it was down until about 2 in the afternoon. (And obviously at the beginning of the season due to those issues). Two (or three again) weekends ago there was a lot of snow in the woods and it was very warm. Is there an issue with the SBX and that's why it hasn't been regularly running or has it been a SB choice not to and are we going to see less of it this season. Again it could just be my perception.

Again my intention is just to get some answers to questions I have and have heard others voice (if that's OK with some of you that is..... 8) ) I champion the Bush to everyone I talk to that skis (and many who don't........yet!!!) So when I hear these questions repeated by others I share the responses and do my best to put a positive spin on it. The more people who ski the Bush the better for all of us because it's more money coming into the mountain and we'll continue to see improvements made. I just want to see the Bush doing the best it can and have the best draw. Heck I rarely ski groomers and the non-natural trails so it isn't even for my benefit. I'm just asking a 3 letter question...why.

Now I'll just go back to my nice comfy armchair. It's what I do while not skiing. Don't worry. I also questioned why on 3rd and long Brady went to Moss when Welker was wide open in the flat and why the person who named hedgehogs chose that nomenclature. I've certainly never seen one in a hedge. I might have named it a spiky hog. I don't believe that names taken. I've also always questioned why gas stations charge you 9/10ths of a cent. I mean seriously. If I buy exactly a gallon of gas at 3.33 and 9/10 they charge me 3.34. Where's my 1/10th of a cent huh? I've been robbed my whole life. It's infuriating. Oops. Sorry to question the machine. I'll just step back in line and enjoy this nice cup of Kool-aid.

Greg and Bubba, as much as I appreciate your attempts to stifle my questions while you sit back smugly, this forum has worked because people ask questions and state their opinions instead of taking a spin on the bandwagon. As much as I may seem like an armchair Operation manager to you, to Sugarbush I am a customer and my opinion matters just as much as yours or anyone else's. Last year I got in 30 days which may not be as much as others, but certainly I'm not a horrible customer when you add in all the beer I drink so I would think SB would be inclined to hear what I say. Now if it's OK with you I'll continue........ :?
Knock yourself out. I'm not trying to stifle criticism as long as it's constructive. It just seems to me the trivial complaining here is on the rise. A few weeks back, it was about some signs with advertising, which in retrospect, I honestly didn't even notice on Friday. One argument there was that SB runs the risk of becoming just like those "other" ski areas to the south. Now SB is not enough like those same ski areas because it doesn't pump out the same amount of snow?

When I was there on Friday, I didn't get the impression the snowmaking trails had inadequate coverage. In fact, the whales on Sleeper and Birch Run were pretty impressive and of great quality, but like you, I didn't spend much time on the snowmaking trails. I guess when you ski the place 30 times a year or every weekend, you have the time and luxury to nitpick. I only get up a few times a year so when I do, I'm just there to ski. Just different perspectives, I guess. Personally, I would have rather looked at some pics from your runs on Twist while I drank my Kool-Aid, but like BMM stated earlier, you just can't please everybody...

[boze]

Sounds like we need some vodka in that Kool aid to help everyone relax a bit. No need to be pissy towards MM4B.

Folks on the board, by that fact alone, demonstrate they care.

It was just MLK weekend right? R-E-S-P-E-C-T. And I happen to know Aretha loves POW.

Sounds like we need some vodka in that Kool aid to help everyone relax a bit. No need to be pissy towards MM4B.

Folks on the board, by that fact alone, demonstrate they care.

Not being pissy. I just don't have to agree with all the constant issues people seem to come up with. I have the right to challenge the complainers as much as they have the right to complain. ;) Pretty much all summer on AZ there were countless whiny threads on how screwed up Killington is, blah, blah, blah. Everybody thinks they're an expert and has it all figured out when in reality we're mostly just a bunch of casual observers and have very little Industry experience. In fact, Win takes the time to chime in here with a very detailed and sensible explanation and it's still not good enough. Amazing.

[bumpcrasher]

Let's call it like we see it....a good example of a "trivial" complaint certainly was the gripping about a sign at Super Bravo advertising units for Claybrook and hot chocolate. Saying that this one sign was a slippery slope leading to Vegas-style billboards on the Gap Roads was a big stretch. However, to say snowmaking is "trivial" is also a big stretch.

Snowmaking is obviously more important to the mountain than whether there is one sign at a lift telling people about lift closures. Truth is, like many mountains, there are some good things and there are bad things. In my humble opinion, overall, the bush is better than anywhere else in the east. Does this mean that I can't think to myself....hey, Jay has great glades, K-Mart make a lot of snow, MRG has no snowboarders (let the fists fly on that one!). Based on my experiences in the last 10 years, I have also thought that the bush does not make as much snow as some mountains. Skiing this weekend, I too expected to see more man-made snow. Does this mean I should not wonder why or whether that is true?

This board is great for bringing up these issues and its better to put voice to a legitimate concern (ie. snowmaking) and have it addressed. Its not "whining or complaining" for MM4B or anyone else to ask why the mountain does one thing or another. In fact, if people did not ask these kinds of questions, the board would be relatively boring. And I assume, everyone agrees that it is excellent to have Win take time to post here.

[BushMogulMaster]

The cost of electricity is clearly a significant factor in snowmaking decisions and in the operating costs of the Mtn. One would have to say that these costs are much more likely to get worse in the future then better. I certainly would never want to see a giant windmill anywhere near SB. However, is it feasible and/or advantageous to place small windmills on the lift towers? There are a lot of lift towers and if you combine lots of little windmills maybe they could generate enough power to make it worth it.

Actually, something that ski resorts are starting to get into to help offset snowmaking cost is micro-hydro. They use mountain brooks and even snowmaking water return lines to generate a small amount of electricity. It certainly doesn't cover nearly what it takes to make snow, but it's just one step in the right direction. I think this is something that Win/Sugarbush might be able to make use of, especially at Mt. Ellen by the snowmaking pond. One micro-hydro setup where the brook comes into the pond, and one at the outlet. Then you can also throw a small setup on the water return line (I'm assuming the whole system isn't a dead-head system). It's a good environmental move, it helps a little with the electricity bill, and it's good PR.

[Fourwide]

I thought the snow on the groomers was outstanding last weekend. The base was firm, but not icy, and the surface was quite edgeable. Snowmaking--Birch, Sleeper and Steins were outrageous! I don't remember Birch skiing as well as it did Mon. a.m., and the left side of Steins was excellent (after the slide down the headwall). I did think upper OG could have used some snow. Blowing snow on Downspout (Sunday, I think) was pretty hilarious! I appreciate the views of those advocating much more snowblowing, but I really thought the conditions were quite good, given the cold, and I take Win's point re. how many guests (especially intermediate skiers) react to snowblowing (not favorably--clearing everyone's goggles every 50 ft!).

Let's call it like we see it....a good example of a "trivial" complaint certainly was the gripping about a sign at Super Bravo advertising units for Claybrook and hot chocolate. Saying that this one sign was a slippery slope leading to Vegas-style billboards on the Gap Roads was a big stretch. However, to say snowmaking is "trivial" is also a big stretch.

Snowmaking is obviously more important to the mountain than whether there is one sign at a lift telling people about lift closures. Truth is, like many mountains, there are some good things and there are bad things. In my humble opinion, overall, the bush is better than anywhere else in the east. Does this mean that I can't think to myself....hey, Jay has great glades, K-Mart make a lot of snow, MRG has no snowboarders (let the fists fly on that one!). Based on my experiences in the last 10 years, I have also thought that the bush does not make as much snow as some mountains. Skiing this weekend, I too expected to see more man-made snow. Does this mean I should not wonder why or whether that is true?

This board is great for bringing up these issues and its better to put voice to a legitimate concern (ie. snowmaking) and have it addressed. Its not "whining or complaining" for MM4B or anyone else to ask why the mountain does one thing or another. In fact, if people did not ask these kinds of questions, the board would be relatively boring. And I assume, everyone agrees that it is excellent to have Win take time to post here.

Well said. I guess the only reason I even chimed in here was that it wasn't apparent to me that the snowmaking trails had inadequate cover. Not by a long shot. If the resort feels they can offer a good product for the MLK weekend with the coverage they have, then I'm fine with that decision. I guess part of the argument is that it was cold so snow should inherently be being made; somewhere. I guess I can understand that POV. However, I have faith that Win and co. are proceeding in a direction that's in the resort's best interest. After all, they are the experts. Personally, I would rather they have some additional budget to resurface after some potential warm-up than to just see them making snow on a closed Sunrise during the MLK weekend. As others already mentioned, snowmaking on open trails is going to be met with mixed reviews. Some folks don't care and others will.

This board would also be relatively boring if some of us didn't chime in to challenge these "issues" and stir the pot from time to time. Funny how my POV is instantly labeled Kool-Aid drinking and I'm the bad guy for simply trying to provide a different perspective.

BTW, except for MRG, SB is the only mountains in Vermont that is 100% open right now. They're making plenty of snow...

[Yard Sale]

I thought the snow on the groomers was outstanding last weekend. The base was firm, but not icy, and the surface was quite edgeable. Snowmaking--Birch, Sleeper and Steins were outrageous! I don't remember Birch skiing as well as it did Mon. a.m., and the left side of Steins was excellent (after the slide down the headwall). I did think upper OG could have used some snow. Blowing snow on Downspout (Sunday, I think) was pretty hilarious! I appreciate the views of those advocating much more snowblowing, but I really thought the conditions were quite good, given the cold, and I take Win's point re. how many guests (especially intermediate skiers) react to snowblowing (not favorably--clearing everyone's goggles every 50 ft!).

I agree.

[MntMan4Bush]

I'm glad my Kool-Aid comment has gotten so much replay here. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but it seems to me you're always ready to jump in line and say every thing's great the way it is, which I would agree with, but where I differ with you is that by your reaction it seems you think it couldn't be made better. Now perhaps I'm mis-interpreting and if I am then stop here because I apologize. My bad. Otherwise if I read correctly I think there is always room for improvement and it is those that continually strive for excellence who have the best chance of one day achieving it. It's often times not the "expert" that see changes that need to be made or paves the way, but the casual observer or someone from the outside. You often get so caught up in your own vision that you miss things when you're an "expert". Now I will say that since Win has been in the hot seat things have been great at the Bush and I think he makes decisions with the whole MRV and his customers in mind and not just his pocket like prior owners may have. This is a sign of great leadership, as is listening to different points of view, ideas and criticisms. It doesn't mean he has to change because of them or even respond (though I'm certainly glad he does), but it would irresponsible of us to not point out areas for PERCEIVED improvement. In the end he's got the facts and figures in front of him and will make the final call. As I said before I wasn't the only one noticing this for this season and seasons past, but perhaps I was the first to voice it.

Now on to happier thoughts. As soon as we get a proper cam going I'd be happy to post up some runs down Twist. I love sitting here in my armchair...errrr...desk and seeing people ski. Makes me a bit jealous, but reminds me of what is in my near future.

I'm glad my Kool-Aid comment has gotten so much replay here. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but it seems to me you're always ready to jump in line and say every thing's great the way it is, which I would agree with, but where I differ with you is that by your reaction it seems you think it couldn't be made better. Now perhaps I'm mis-interpreting and if I am then stop here because I apologize. My bad. Otherwise if I read correctly I think there is always room for improvement and it is those that continually strive for excellence who have the best chance of one day achieving it. It's often times not the "expert" that see changes that need to be made or paves the way, but the casual observer or someone from the outside. You often get so caught up in your own vision that you miss things when you're an "expert". Now I will say that since Win has been in the hot seat things have been great at the Bush and I think he makes decisions with the whole MRV and his customers in mind and not just his pocket like prior owners may have. This is a sign of great leadership, as is listening to different points of view, ideas and criticisms. It doesn't mean he has to change because of them or even respond (though I'm certainly glad he does), but it would irresponsible of us to not point out areas for PERCEIVED improvement. In the end he's got the facts and figures in front of him and will make the final call. As I said before I wasn't the only one noticing this for this season and seasons past, but perhaps I was the first to voice it.
Fair enough.


Now on to happier thoughts. As soon as we get a proper cam going I'd be happy to post up some runs down Twist. I love sitting here in my armchair...errrr...desk and seeing people ski. Makes me a bit jealous, but reminds me of what is in my near future.

Sweet! Looking forward to them! Not sure if you saw it, but this was my foray on Friday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y9I1S28L0I

Let's get the stoke going!!!

[ski_resort_observer]

when you add in all the beer I drink so I would think SB would be inclined to hear what I say.

With regard to the SBX again perhaps my use of last weekend as an example wasn't the best, although without being able to shift some of the crowd its absence was certainly noticed. Two or three weekends before it was down until about 2 in the afternoon. (And obviously at the beginning of the season due to those issues). Two (or three again) weekends ago there was a lot of snow in the woods and it was very warm. Is there an issue with the SBX and that's why it hasn't been regularly running or has it been a SB choice not to and are we going to see less of it this season. Again it could just be my perception.
.

the beer comment tells me you have not lost your sense of humor.... :lol:

Believe it or not the Bush wants to run the SBX when it's scheduled as much, maybe be even more, than the guests, like yourself, want it running. Matter of fact, early this past Sat morning a manager went out to do a stick check along the SBX in the very slight chance we could run it with all the safety precautions covered. He came back with a very red face from the cold and found out what everybody pretty much already knew, not enough base.

I love the SBX, it's one of those lifts which just the ride alone is alot of fun. I know it's not nearly as convenient but I often take the shuttle over to LP as I always park at Mellen and I always like skiing a few of my favs over at LP the few times I get out for a full day. Bottom line is that it will be running ASAP. :)

Running the lifts with diesel power like all the resorts used to do is not an option anymore with Vermont's restrictions on CO2 emissions. Perhaps with the use of biodiesel this might change in the future as a viable supplement. I also think electrical use goes up in the evening until the wee hours when we all go to sleep.

[Tin Woodsman]

Sounds like we need some vodka in that Kool aid to help everyone relax a bit. No need to be pissy towards MM4B.

Folks on the board, by that fact alone, demonstrate they care.

Not being pissy. I just don't have to agree with all the constant issues people seem to come up with. I have the right to challenge the complainers as much as they have the right to complain. ;) Pretty much all summer on AZ there were countless whiny threads on how screwed up Killington is, blah, blah, blah. Everybody thinks they're an expert and has it all figured out when in reality we're mostly just a bunch of casual observers and have very little Industry experience. In fact, Win takes the time to chime in here with a very detailed and sensible explanation and it's still not good enough. Amazing.
What's amazing is that anyone would not only take the word of an interested party as gospel, but would also chide others for questioning same.

1) Slidebrook - No complaints from me on the closure this weekend. Anyone who is even a casual observer of the snowpack beyond the trails knows that it's pretty bony at the lower elevations where the sled roads are. Moreover, both the sled access policy and the cold weather policy are not only based on legitimate safety concerns, they are policies that have been discussed in detail on this site since Win forst began participating. I'm not sure how anyone could argue with that, as disappointing as it may be not to have the SBX running on a busy holiday weekend.

2) Snowmaking - Lots of Kool-Aid being drunk here. Many kudos go out to Win and his team for making the effort to recover from a truly awful thaw. The conditions on those trails where snow had been made were definitely enjoyable and better than expected. No one is arguing this. What is troubling here is the effort to stifle what are legitimate criticisms of fundamentally critical mountain operations issues impacting just about everyone who skis at SB.


Fact: The mountain made no snow during the day on Saturday at LP.

Fact: Many skiers have no problem with, or even prefer, skiing runs where snowmaking is ongoing. The hordes descending Stein's on Sunday illustrate this clearly. This is even more the case when the snowmaking is on runs like Steins, Sunrise, Exterminator or others that aren't liftlines or high capacity runs (e.g. Jester and Downspout) where people can make an informed choice to take or not.

Fact: SB has the ability and infrastructure to make snow on Sunrise and has done so as recently as last year

Fact: Win's post spoke only to the general issues SB faces when making decisions about electrical purchases for snowmaking, and not to the specific choices or decisions made over this weekend. With respect to snowmaking, or lack thereof, on MLK weekend 2008, there is has been little information imparted.

Is it possible that SB was unable to expand its snowmaking efforts on Sunday and Monday in a commercially reasonable fashion b/c it was so cold? Possibly - though we don't know all the facts on this. What we do know was that it was cold enough to make snow efficiently (though not so cold that the draw on GMP would be out of the ordinary) on most of the mountain (talking about LP here - didn't make it to ME) on Saturday and nothing was made. No building of base depths. No resurfacing of heavy traffic areas.

Win doesn't owe me or anyone else an explanation for decisions made for commercial reasons, but surely this site is not supposed to simply be a mouthpiece for mountain management. My understanding of the purpose of this forum is to discuss all aspects of SB and its operations, the MRV as a whole, and whatever else seems to make sense. If this site is supposed to be limited solely to happy fun time trip reports and "atta boys", it will make for pretty boring reading. Quite frankly, most of the negative stuff I've heard of through various means never makes it on here, so let's not pretend that me or anyone else is focused on the negative. This attitude would imply that the posters on this site should act like lobotomized Stepford wives, dutifully following the company line - how DARE we question what the company line is! How DARE us flatlanders actually have an opinion on the skiing experience!

It's funny, really. When we talk about non-skiing stuff (ads, etc..) we are chided for not focusing on the skiing. When we talk about skiing stuff, we are chided for accentuating the negative. Are all decisions made by the mtn beyond reproach? Should I avoid starting topics to discuss the fact that when SB was on total windhold in December, they actually tried to charge people $15 for the right to skin up to mid-mountain? Should I avoid starting topics discussing the various and sundry backchannel posts I've received from insiders detailing the many shortcoming of the Low-E guns?

Let's be clear - Win and his team are the best thing to happen to Sugarbush in a long, long time. It's hard to argue that point. But I assure you that their farts do smell and they do make mistakes.

[gone.skiing]

Well, there you have it. I really hope that explanation is sufficient for all you know-it-all armchair ski resort operators. :? Here's a novel idea: let's try to post more trip reports, pics and videos here and less whining. :roll:




Bingo!

There we have what? I am still curious why no snow was made anywhere on Monday. No power? Existing cover deemed sufficient? Too much money already spent season to date? This is not meant as a complaint, I am just trying to understand the reasoning. Nobody owes me an explanation, but that does not mean I can't ask a question.

I can argue that Steins had the best cover and best snow on Monday because it had guns on it the day before. And it was choke full of people including little kids even with guns blazing.

Mountain a 100% open after rain week... Please! Anyone skied Ripcord on Sat the 12th? Sure you could ski it if you had ice axe to self arrest. I have not seen too many people on it that morning. How about Lower Birdland any time that weekend? There was exactly one path through it interrupted by berms of mountain bike trails. What does it mean to list those trails as open on snow report?

[djd66]

Here are the facts. Last week we spent more money on snowmaking than any week that we have owned the Resort. On one day alone our bill was $25,000 We have made more early snow than ever. We have an excellent base even after the January thaw. We have spent considerably more than what we have budgeted even with the 13 feet of natural snow that we have received.

GMP is our source of electricity, and they can curtail us on any given day which they normally do when temperatures are very cold. Sometimes we can not run. Other times we can buy into the spot market at up to double the cost. Last week we blew snow in preparaton of the weekend and elected to blow only on Stein's during the Day to make it more pleasant for the guest. Prior to the weekend we blew on Birch, Sleeper, Easy Rider, and others. At ME we blew on Cruiser, Inverness and Brambles to get it in shape for GMVS which was not only important for them and for everyone else.

Slidebrook did not run for two reasons. There was not enough snow cover to set in to the towers and on Sunday and Monday the temperatures were too cold. If wind chill is below, we will not run it for safety reasons. If any skied Birch and Stein's were we had most recently blown snow, you would have enjoyed it. I did!

One more thing, Djd66, it isn't lame. Safety is our first concern, and if we can not get sleds and snowmobiles safely through the slidebrook roads to the lifts towers, we are not going to run Slibebrook. This lift is two miles long and if anything went wrong a lift evacuation is a significant event which we are prepared for. Access to the lift and temperatures dictate when we run the lift. We obviously want it to run because it does more people around, but we will never compromise on safety!




Perhaps I should have said it is a shame rather than lame. :) I did not realize that you had to have snow on the ground for an evac. Riding over the terain many a time I supose it makes sense. I hope to never experience a lift evac on slidebrook. Would it be possible to run more buses on weekends when sbx is down? I still stand by my other coments about the snow conditions - considering how much snow was lost the week of 1/7, the skiing was very good this past weekend.

This is a very challening time for the ski industry and our country. All we have to do is look our economy and see what the cost of energy (among other thing) is doing to it. First thing people cut out in a recession are things like ski trips. Gas being at $3.00/gal. does not help the bottom line when your biggest expense is power. I am not trying to stifle anyone's post, just something to think about.

Sounds like we need some vodka in that Kool aid to help everyone relax a bit. No need to be pissy towards MM4B.

Folks on the board, by that fact alone, demonstrate they care.

Not being pissy. I just don't have to agree with all the constant issues people seem to come up with. I have the right to challenge the complainers as much as they have the right to complain. ;) Pretty much all summer on AZ there were countless whiny threads on how screwed up Killington is, blah, blah, blah. Everybody thinks they're an expert and has it all figured out when in reality we're mostly just a bunch of casual observers and have very little Industry experience. In fact, Win takes the time to chime in here with a very detailed and sensible explanation and it's still not good enough. Amazing.
What's amazing is that anyone would not only take the word of an interested party as gospel, but would also chide others for questioning same.

1) Slidebrook - No complaints from me on the closure this weekend. Anyone who is even a casual observer of the snowpack beyond the trails knows that it's pretty bony at the lower elevations where the sled roads are. Moreover, both the sled access policy and the cold weather policy are not only based on legitimate safety concerns, they are policies that have been discussed in detail on this site since Win forst began participating. I'm not sure how anyone could argue with that, as disappointing as it may be not to have the SBX running on a busy holiday weekend.

2) Snowmaking - Lots of Kool-Aid being drunk here. Many kudos go out to Win and his team for making the effort to recover from a truly awful thaw. The conditions on those trails where snow had been made were definitely enjoyable and better than expected. No one is arguing this. What is troubling here is the effort to stifle what are legitimate criticisms of fundamentally critical mountain operations issues impacting just about everyone who skis at SB.


Fact: The mountain made no snow during the day on Saturday at LP.

Fact: Many skiers have no problem with, or even prefer, skiing runs where snowmaking is ongoing. The hordes descending Stein's on Sunday illustrate this clearly. This is even more the case when the snowmaking is on runs like Steins, Sunrise, Exterminator or others that aren't liftlines or high capacity runs (e.g. Jester and Downspout) where people can make an informed choice to take or not.

Fact: SB has the ability and infrastructure to make snow on Sunrise and has done so as recently as last year

Fact: Win's post spoke only to the general issues SB faces when making decisions about electrical purchases for snowmaking, and not to the specific choices or decisions made over this weekend. With respect to snowmaking, or lack thereof, on MLK weekend 2008, there is has been little information imparted.

Is it possible that SB was unable to expand its snowmaking efforts on Sunday and Monday in a commercially reasonable fashion b/c it was so cold? Possibly - though we don't know all the facts on this. What we do know was that it was cold enough to make snow efficiently (though not so cold that the draw on GMP would be out of the ordinary) on most of the mountain (talking about LP here - didn't make it to ME) on Saturday and nothing was made. No building of base depths. No resurfacing of heavy traffic areas.

Win doesn't owe me or anyone else an explanation for decisions made for commercial reasons, but surely this site is not supposed to simply be a mouthpiece for mountain management. My understanding of the purpose of this forum is to discuss all aspects of SB and its operations, the MRV as a whole, and whatever else seems to make sense. If this site is supposed to be limited solely to happy fun time trip reports and "atta boys", it will make for pretty boring reading. Quite frankly, most of the negative stuff I've heard of through various means never makes it on here, so let's not pretend that me or anyone else is focused on the negative. This attitude would imply that the posters on this site should act like lobotomized Stepford wives, dutifully following the company line - how DARE we question what the company line is! How DARE us flatlanders actually have an opinion on the skiing experience!

It's funny, really. When we talk about non-skiing stuff (ads, etc..) we are chided for not focusing on the skiing. When we talk about skiing stuff, we are chided for accentuating the negative. Are all decisions made by the mtn beyond reproach? Should I avoid starting topics to discuss the fact that when SB was on total windhold in December, they actually tried to charge people $15 for the right to skin up to mid-mountain? Should I avoid starting topics discussing the various and sundry backchannel posts I've received from insiders detailing the many shortcoming of the Low-E guns?

Let's be clear - Win and his team are the best thing to happen to Sugarbush in a long, long time. It's hard to argue that point. But I assure you that their farts do smell and they do make mistakes.

Wow. That's some post. You guys take these criticisms pretty seriously, almost nauseatingly so. :roll: I guess you weekend warriors have the right to do so by getting up there so often. Again, this gaper will be lucky to get in 6 or 7 days at the Bush so I won't have the time nor desire to nitpick everything. Bottom line is I had a good time on Friday. Those God-awful flashing advertisements on the signs weren't even noticed and I thought the groomers skied great. I must be pretty clueless.

And I'm not trying to "stifle what are legitimate criticisms of fundamentally critical mountain operations issues." You guys are acting like half the mountain was closed and the coverage on the open trails was weak. A lot of snow must have melted Friday night, I guess. Remember back to that thread about replacing Valley House with an HSQ? Read my posts there. That was legitimate concern. The fact there was no snowmaking on Sunrise over the weekend, or that there are flashing adverts on a couple signs is nothing more than nitpicking.

And you know what makes for boring reading? Silly minor little criticisms every Monday morning. So to that end, I'll continue to call them out. That makes for more interesting reading...

[Yard Sale]

I would like to see more tissue dispensers at the lift corrals. No, I demand more tissues. In fact, if there aren't more tissues, I would like to know why there aren't more tissues. There are plenty of other mountains with way more tissue dispensers at the lifts.

[Yard Sale]

I would like to see more tissue dispensers at the lift corrals. No, I demand more tissues. In fact, if there aren't more tissues, I would like to know why there aren't more tissues. There are plenty of other mountains with way more tissue dispensers at the lifts.

Yardsale: stop being such pansie and wipe your nose on your sleeve.

I would like to see more tissue dispensers at the lift corrals. No, I demand more tissues. In fact, if there aren't more tissues, I would like to know why there aren't more tissues. There are plenty of other mountains with way more tissue dispensers at the lifts.

:lol:

Exactly.

[Yard Sale]

I would like to see more tissue dispensers at the lift corrals. No, I demand more tissues. In fact, if there aren't more tissues, I would like to know why there aren't more tissues. There are plenty of other mountains with way more tissue dispensers at the lifts.

Yardsale: stop being such pansie and wipe your nose on your sleeve.

Listen, just because i have a runny nose doesn't mean I'm anti Bush you kool aid drinking yahoo.

[Yard Sale]

I would like to see more tissue dispensers at the lift corrals. No, I demand more tissues. In fact, if there aren't more tissues, I would like to know why there aren't more tissues. There are plenty of other mountains with way more tissue dispensers at the lifts.

Yardsale: stop being such pansie and wipe your nose on your sleeve.

Listen, just because i have a runny nose doesn't mean I'm anti Bush you kool aid drinking yahoo.

Well, when you state your case so clearly, I guess you make a good point. :P :P :P :P

Pats:72 G-Men: 12 :shock:

I would like to see more tissue dispensers at the lift corrals. No, I demand more tissues. In fact, if there aren't more tissues, I would like to know why there aren't more tissues. There are plenty of other mountains with way more tissue dispensers at the lifts.

Yardsale: stop being such pansie and wipe your nose on your sleeve.

Listen, just because i have a runny nose doesn't mean I'm anti Bush you kool aid drinking yahoo.

Well, when you state your case so clearly, I guess you make a good point. :P :P :P :P

Classic!

[skigal]

I haven't had time to read each of the above posts in detail so won't get too involved but the comment about no resurfacing having been done is incorrect. Deathspout was at its worst by the end of the day on Saturday but Sunday had nice new manmade. I'm not sure, but I think Snowball may have had some work done as well.

SBX...too cold and not enough cover. If you plan accordingly the bus is no big deal. I got stuck on that lift last season for about 30 minutes. Temps weren't too bad but still an experience I'd rather not have had. Can't imagine going through an evac out there.

GMP and buying off the grid is far more complex a business issue for any of us to be debating from our laptops.

BTW...I agree that in general there is far too much Attaboy stuff on this site...I do enjoy reading posts that provide constructive criticism but love those trip reports as well.

On another note....I remember being told there would be a lunch buffet at Timbers on weekends. Whatever became of that? And after all the complaining about the Castlerock Pub being too crowded the mountain reopened the Wonderbar but has anyone been going there? I saw they tried selling beer in the cafeteria but noone was buying. Looks like they've stopped manning the keg. Not enough takers or were the choices too limited for anyone to be interested? I think they were only serving Castlerock Ale.

[Chewbarka]

Sugarbush was great this past MLK weekend. I hear Killington was nothing but sugar on ice. Glen Ellen was carving paradise on Sunday. Ski right onto the lifts. How can anyone be gripe about how the place skied on the busiest weekend of the year after two weeks of bad weather.

[Lostone]

My understanding of the purpose of this forum is to discuss all aspects of SB and its operations, the MRV as a whole, and whatever else seems to make sense.

That is also my understanding of the purpose of this board, along with providing advice and assistance to those coming into the valley.

I think most of the attaboy posts have to do with so many people on the board being invested in the mountain, whether as a job, 2nd home, or just a great place to be. I think there will be some negative posts until the resort becomes perfect to everyone.

As for the no resurfacing, I didn't ski South on Saturday, so can't say, but found a number of hit-and-run patches on Sunday morning.

[BushMogulMaster]

I think certain posts are misinterpreted as "attaboy" posts. I think some of my posts can be misinterpreted as such. In the case of my previous post, for example.

However, I wasn't even there. I'm in Colorado. My point was to perhaps inspire a bit of thought and reflection. People like to jump to conclusions, and nitpick each and every little detail. And that's fine. Go for it. I just figured I'd offer a few alternative viewpoints given my knowledge of the ski industry and my experience at the Bush. I think that's what some of us are trying to accomplish. I love the Bush, and I greatly respect Win. Does that mean I agree with every single decision? No. But I try to look from every angle to get the "big picture" perspective. I can understand why they would choose not to blow on Saturday. If I was there, would I have liked some fresh snowmaking? Maybe. But I like to look at the other side of the equation too.

Am I biased in Sugarbush's favor? Yeah. Because I love the place, and I have a personal vested interest in the operation. So yes, I suppose I might defend it sometimes. But I'm not blind to the operation's shortcomings. Every operation has them.

I know the "attaboy" references were probably not directed at any one individual, just thought I'd use my post as an example.

But I digress.

Re: snowmaking on Sunrise. My bad. I think I've only skied it once or twice, and didn't recall seeing hydrants, nor were they listed on one of the snowmaking maps I looked at (although it may have been out of date).

[BushMogulMaster]

BTW, yardsale, I enjoyed your little four post run. That was pretty funny :D

[MntMan4Bush]

Sorry Greg and Yard Sale. I'll just toe the line with the status quo. Much easier that way. Perhaps though as a "weekend" and some time "weekday" "warrior" that spends a lot of time at the Bush I might have seen more evidence of times when snow making would have been an improvement. Perhaps not. Maybe from your 6-7 times of great conditions up at the Bush you have better insight. By all means fire away with your constructive criticism of my constructive criticism. However don't expect that I won't constructively criticize your constructive criticism of my constructive criticism. 8) Great job getting your post counts up by adding value. If you disagree with my comments state it and move along. No reason to complain about me complaining. As you can see from my sentence above circular logic (and I realize I'm adding to the infinite loop) gets us nowhere. I had a critique and I stated it. All I can say to you is enjoy it. Or cry about it. Whatever you want. I don't care. I just need a beer. But obviously others feel the same way I do otherwise everyone would have disagreed with me. Does that validate my comments. Maybe. As paying customers shouldn't we fill the complaint box when we feel necessary? Or perhaps you'd like to continue slipping all over the concrete outside of the new lodge on your way to cram yourself into a tiny pub and get elbowed after not enjoying a slowly served and ill prepared dish over at Timbers. Oh wait. Concerns, or sorry complaints from those people who can't be satisfied were raised and what happened. Timbers has come around full circle. The meals are delicious, service quick and friendly (at least my experiences this year). There were hightops put in Timbers to take some overflow form CR Pub and the Wonderbar was re-opened. As for the slippery surface outside the lodge, well it's as they say, two out of three ain't bad. I'm sure it will get fixed though. Huh......All that from a bunch of whiners. We probably should have just kept our mouth shut. Everything was perfect before.

[Yard Sale]

MM4B: I just thought that considering that the mountain just recently lost about 2 feet of snow pack conditions were pretty good this weekend. Could they have been better? Sure. Could they have been worse? Yeah. Should they have been blowing snow? No clue. I don't have the insight into mountain ops or the bottom line. Your point was valid. I just didn't agree with it, at least not entirely. As for the improvements you reference, I'm sure the criticiques heard on this board were useful to management. Keep our mouths shut? No, all of the opinions are of value, even if i don't agree with all of them.

BTW: I did take a spill outside the lodge this past weekend, so hopefully the fix for that is in the works. And you know what else, I was goofing around before about the tissue issue, but actually some more tissue dispensers at the corrals would be nice. Aw nuts! I just spilled kool aid down the front of shirt.

[Fourwide]

I will avoid piling on the contentious tissue debate (except that increased tissue availabily begets the need for more tissue disposal facilities), but what was going on Monday with the Gatehouse corrall??? No southern entrance; instead, only a north entrance, canted down towards the parking lot! Were Yogi a skier, he might say "you can't ski there from here!". We all have our disagreements on snowmaking, adequate tissue availability, bag storage in the lodge, LP as the early open and late close, pint-sized pubs and the rest (and, not to put myself in any particular camp, please note that I take no position on any of that), but can't we all come together and agree that the north-only facing corrall at Gatehouse is absolute madness?

[MntMan4Bush]

I definitely understand a difference of opinion. I just think your way of presenting yours seemed to say mine wasn't valid so I should just be quiet. Of course this is perception only and that's a HUGE problem with electronic mediums for communication.

I had a great time last weekend as well. The problem is (and mind you it's not exactly a problem that garners a lot of sympathy) I always do. I ski a lot with some of the posters here and they can tell you I am always upbeat about the conditions. I skied last January when it was raining and coming down Lower Organgrinder you had to stay in a 1 foot wide path and hop over two streams and a pipe. I came into the CR Pub after about 5 hours of skiing while others went in early and told them what a great time I had and how it wasn't that bad because there was a nice little bump line about 30 feet long that was soft and buttery like Spring. There's been days this season post thaw when (Pre-Christmas thaw and January) it was all ice and I kept thinking it would get better if everyone just took the time to chop up a good line on Twist and had a lot of fun doing it despite some reproachful looks.

That being said when I look at the mountain and see something I want as a consumer or where I feel other mountains do better I speak up. Now do I know better. Certainly not. That's why Win runs the show and as soon as I posted he didn't go running up the trail and start firing up the guns, but it's an observation that has some merit to it. At least it makes him think about it, if but for a second. I've said a few times in this thread, take last weekend out of it (although coming off a thaw it's a decent example), I truly feel the Bush blows a lot less snow then other mountains do in general and see this as an area for improvement. Now of course there are cons to it (energy costs, environmental issues, guns blowing at some skiers) as there are cons with every decision you have to weigh, but I was just stating how I felt. Considering this is really the first thing I've posted about all season in a negative context I'm not sure how I get labeled a whiner or nitpicky, but hey that's an opinion too I guess.

I definitely understand a difference of opinion. I just think your way of presenting yours seemed to say mine wasn't valid so I should just be quiet. Of course this is perception only and that's a HUGE problem with electronic mediums for communication.

I had a great time last weekend as well. The problem is (and mind you it's not exactly a problem that garners a lot of sympathy) I always do. I ski a lot with some of the posters here and they can tell you I am always upbeat about the conditions. I skied last January when it was raining and coming down Lower Organgrinder you had to stay in a 1 foot wide path and hop over two streams and a pipe. I came into the CR Pub after about 5 hours of skiing while others went in early and told them what a great time I had and how it wasn't that bad because there was a nice little bump line about 30 feet long that was soft and buttery like Spring. There's been days this season post thaw when (Pre-Christmas thaw and January) it was all ice and I kept thinking it would get better if everyone just took the time to chop up a good line on Twist and had a lot of fun doing it despite some reproachful looks.

That being said when I look at the mountain and see something I want as a consumer or where I feel other mountains do better I speak up. Now do I know better. Certainly not. That's why Win runs the show and as soon as I posted he didn't go running up the trail and start firing up the guns, but it's an observation that has some merit to it. At least it makes him think about it, if but for a second. I've said a few times in this thread, take last weekend out of it (although coming off a thaw it's a decent example), I truly feel the Bush blows a lot less snow then other mountains do in general and see this as an area for improvement. Now of course there are cons to it (energy costs, environmental issues, guns blowing at some skiers) as there are cons with every decision you have to weigh, but I was just stating how I felt. Considering this is really the first thing I've posted about all season in a negative context I'm not sure how I get labeled a whiner or nitpicky, but hey that's an opinion too I guess.

That's a well thought out post. Thanks. I apologize for coming down too hard on you. I guess after the sign/ad thing, I was a tad jumpy. I stand by my opinion that was a bit ridiculous, and I guess after skiing what I deemed to be very adequate cover on Friday, I was taken aback again by this thread. I do hope Win and co. get some useful feedback from these forums, and I don't mean to stifle that. Still, someone that doesn't agree with the criticisms doesn't necessarily mean they're drinking the Kool-Aid.

[MntMan4Bush]

:lol: Certainly doesn't but I've kind of felt this forum had grown a bit dusty and could use some stirring up. Hey I heard someone suggest throwing some Vodka in that Kool aid and if that's the case then I'll be first in line with my nice Purple Robe and Nike kicks. Just point me in the direction of the closest comet. Elizabeth.....ELIZABETH I'm coming...........

[Yard Sale]

Point taken. Yes there are rather large gaps left for interpretation in e-communications. My juvenile style of expression is more of a reflection of me being a juvenile. (I'm only forty-teen years old.) It's not directed at anyone post or poster in particular, I was just poking a little fun at what I saw as a spiral the thread as a whole seemed to be taking. I apologize for my portion of the communication gap.

Alcohol: The source of and solution to all of life's problems.

...I've kind of felt this forum had grown a bit dusty and could use some stirring up.

Likewise. I think I'm going to give poor Tinny an aneurysm though... :lol:

http://esum.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/serious.jpg

[Tin Woodsman]

Me? Naaahh..


It's all good. I'm not screaming bloody murder here. I only speak out b/c I care and want to see SB succeed. If I was sitting here just blowing sunshine up people's rear-ends, I'd be doing SB a disservice by allowing them to think that distinct shortcomings relative to the expectations they've set and expect for themselves are going unnoticed. To be clear, I'd much rather have Win running the place than the jamokes down at K-Mart - now THAT'S something to complain about.

I only speak out b/c I care and want to see SB succeed.
I (we) know that. Your passion is obvious and appreciated.



To be clear, I'd much rather have Win running the place than the jamokes down at K-Mart - now THAT'S something to complain about.
I skied Killington on 12/4 and it was great. The early powder helped obviously, but the staff was friendly and food in KBL was good and typically priced. I know many of you absolutely loathe Killington, but I'm going to give them another try this Monday hopefully. I want to see how the midwinter conditions are. They've apparently made a ton of snow recently. I'm also going to give them another whirl in the spring. I think it's only fair to try the place out before criticizing the new owners, but again, I'm easy to please...

[barkbiter]

I can't believe all the whining about snow conditions. Happy to give all pantywaists free ski clinic on how to ski ice, moss, rocks. Meet me tonite, entrance to Egan's Woods, 11 pm sharp, headlights optional.

Leave Win alone............................signed The Barkbiter.

[ski_resort_observer]

I can't believe all the whining about snow conditions. Happy to give all pantywaists free ski clinic on how to ski ice, moss, rocks. Meet me tonite, entrance to Egan's Woods, 11 pm sharp, headlights optional.

Leave Win alone............................signed The Barkbiter.

:lol: :lol: That's quite a generous offer...I mean....who wouldn't want to ski ice, moss and rocks. Plus doing it in the dark would be the added bonus for that constant rush of adrenalin.

[skiladi]

I think it's time for a group HUG! ; }
And will everyone please keep dancing?! I was in the trees yesterday on windblown crud but I was warm. ; }
I ski midweek mostly so I can't ride the sbx...waaah! But I have this really cool thing: it's called an automobile. And instead of lots of smelly skiers in there , there is just one and I can listen to tunes and stuff! I know what you are thinking but I hate mass transit. I love Sugarbush!!!!!!but I may do a road trip to Jay , have to check and see if they really got 8 last night. Wish I had paid closer attention...waaah.

[MntMan4Bush]

Not sure I want a lesson from someone who bites. Thanks for the offer though. I'll stick to conditions where you actually ski as opposed to hop from patch to patch. Love to see a brochure or video first detailing what I'd get with my lessons package. Pretty sure I already know all about the "snow plow" and "stem christies"........oooooohhhhhhhh That's right I went there....... :lol:

[ski_resort_observer]

http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album39/trees.jpg

[random_ski_guy]

I can't believe all the whining about snow conditions. Happy to give all pantywaists free ski clinic on how to ski ice, moss, rocks. Meet me tonite, entrance to Egan's Woods, 11 pm sharp, headlights optional.

Leave Win alone............................signed The Barkbiter.

Sweet. I have been looking for a way to rid myself of whining. See you at 11pm.

And ps- is this Win's alter ego?

[gone.skiing]

I skied last January when it was raining and coming down Lower Organgrinder you had to stay in a 1 foot wide path and hop over two streams and a pipe.

I remember those few days. You have to admit little waterfall on the right hand side was very scenic. Would have been perfect for barkbiter's clinic...

[notorious]

to put the whining to rest. The 80% rule applies, i.e., on any day on which you debate whether to ski or not, there's an 80% chance that you'll be glad you went skiing, rather than doing anything else. It's always better somewhere, but if you're skiing you're better off than those who aren't. We're all rippers on hero snow. I don't believe that this thread would get much mileage at MRG.
Q to the Barquecoupeur---if I go into Egans woods today am I in for a big surprise??

[Tin Woodsman]

I can't believe all the whining about snow conditions. Happy to give all pantywaists free ski clinic on how to ski ice, moss, rocks. Meet me tonite, entrance to Egan's Woods, 11 pm sharp, headlights optional.

Leave Win alone............................signed The Barkbiter.

Feh. For a guy talking such a big game, you sure pick some ordinary runs.

[kcyanks1]

I can't believe all the whining about snow conditions. Happy to give all pantywaists free ski clinic on how to ski ice, moss, rocks. Meet me tonite, entrance to Egan's Woods, 11 pm sharp, headlights optional.

Leave Win alone............................signed The Barkbiter.

Feh. For a guy talking such a big game, you sure pick some ordinary runs.

Well, to be fair, he only gave the entrance to Egan's as the meeting place. Perhaps he didn't want to disclose the super top-secret woods where his clinic will actually take place.

[random_ski_guy]

I can't believe all the whining about snow conditions. Happy to give all pantywaists free ski clinic on how to ski ice, moss, rocks. Meet me tonite, entrance to Egan's Woods, 11 pm sharp, headlights optional.

Leave Win alone............................signed The Barkbiter.

Feh. For a guy talking such a big game, you sure pick some ordinary runs.

Well, to be fair, he only gave the entrance to Egan's as the meeting place. Perhaps he didn't want to disclose the super top-secret woods where his clinic will actually take place.

Not sure what happened last night. I was there with all my most manly gear; spring shorts and tee, straight 210cm K2s, no goggles, no headlight, no cell phone and no whining. :D