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View Full Version : Canadian Kid Dies at SB



Tin Woodsman
01-09-2008, 12:40 PM
Surprised this hasn't been discussed/posted:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080108/NEWS/80108003

Such a tragedy.

Yard Sale
01-09-2008, 12:59 PM
On what trail did this happen?

I feel horrible for the boy and his loved ones. What a tragedy.

I also want to express my best wishes to the ski patrol and SB staff. While this boy did not survive, I'm sure they did everything they could to save him. I'm very greatful for the work they do.

Lostone
01-09-2008, 01:54 PM
I'd heard about it but had nothing to discuss, as I really don't have many details.

You're right. It is a tragedy.

freeheel_skier
01-09-2008, 02:07 PM
I never really think about how dangerous this recreation can be, until I read something like this. First thing that comes to mind is well there must be a reason? Because that would never happen to me. I take this precaution or that precaution. Well it can.

Very sad indeed. I can't even venture to phathom what his family or the ski patrol on site must be expierencing.

Fourwide
01-09-2008, 04:46 PM
...even on a groomer. If you wipe out and hit a tree or a tower, you can do all sorts of awful damage to your head, neck or torso.

madhavok
01-09-2008, 05:01 PM
Does anyone know if the kid was wearing a helmet? Sometimes when I hit an open trail, I really let the skis rip and wonder if wearing a helmet even matters at those speeds.

boze
01-09-2008, 06:10 PM
My deepest condolences to the boy's family, and those who helped him.

This tragic dose of reality will hopefully help prevent future accidents of some others.

In that vein I'd be interested in learning whether he was wearing a helmet. While a helmet is certainly no guarantee, it is a key piece of safety equipment when properly 'installed'. Assuming he was wearing a helmet, the lesson is especially poignant.

I plan on sharing this story with my 10 year old son, in hopes it will underscore our 'safety first' mantra. Speaking for myself, when surrounded by all the on-trail or off-piste natural beauty and jazzed about simply being on the 'hill' I sometimes find myself feeling a bit impervious to danger...an that's never a good thing.

Bubba
01-09-2008, 07:07 PM
...even on a groomer. If you wipe out and hit a tree or a tower, you can do all sorts of awful damage to your head, neck or torso.


Do you ski faster on a groomed trail or a bumped trail?
Come on, think about it.
As far as I know, the kid was not wearing a helmet. This is not the only reason to wear a helmet! I don't care how good a skier you are or think you are. There are inherent risks to the sport. Not the least of which is the fact that there are a lot of yahoos out there. People get hit by other skiers/riders more than people hit trees. Be aware of what's going on around you at all times.

Before you all get too involved in this thread, please note that this is the first trauma related death at Sugarbush in several years.

My heart goes out to all touched by this tragedy.

Let's move on.

smootharc
01-10-2008, 09:28 AM
....but one that will be discussed....very thoroughly.....in our household. My boys are 9 & 7, and I've tried to temper my enthusiasm for them "going for it" against my general parental paranoia for my kids, and my understanding, after all these years, of the inherent risks of the sport.

Years ago I scratched a long time itch.....riding sport bikes. When the first Ninja's came on the scene in the early 1980's, I saw them and thought "I gotta get me one of those things". Lucky I didn't, or I'm sure I'd have likely become a statistic. But the itch remained, and in my mid-30's I decided it had to be scratched. Freaking out family and friends, I said "I'm going to ride". First thing out of everyone's mouth was "Isn't that dangerous ?" or "I know a guy who's brother....".

It brought up the issue of Danger vs. Risk. Degrees of danger vs. management of calculated risk. And with riding motorcycles, there are about 5 major factors one can employ to take the risk of street riding and cut it down, statistically, to a fraction of what most riders face when they turn the key. I rode for 6 years, I scratched the itch over close to 20k of Sunday sport rides, and I stopped when my wife said, after having our third child, that she didn't breathe from the time I rode off until the garage door went up when I returned. She wasn't asking me to stop....but she was asking me to stop.

Anyways, I've tried to be a teacher on the slopes for my boys with regard to thinking about risk and exposure as we ski. Beneath the joy of sliding on snow can be a foundation of managing the inherent risk that you face from the time you click in until you're sitting in the bathtub recalling another great day. I don't really know how many people on the slopes think like that. I bump into too many people these days who have never even heard of the skier's responsibility code. Scary.

And many times, people's assumptions of inherent risk are based on a trail's rating. In many ways, Jester can be considered to be more dangerous than Rumble. Fall on rumble and the bumps, coutours, and likely speed you've been carrying while skiing it, can all actually help assure you'll be able to regain control. Fall in the wrong place on Jester, and your margin of safety can be non-existent with the trees as your stopping devices....and usually your speed is likely much higher than other trails.

Anyways, sorry to ramble. These sad events always feel like a kick in the gut. But a discussion of risk factors, inherent dangers, and what we can do to try to minimize our exposure as skiers is something I will revisit with my boys, and girls, again. It shouldn't take this type of tragedy at SB, or any ski area for that matter, to remind us to try to think and ski in a way that anticipates, and avoids, as many of the potential danger points inherent to sliding on snow as possible. We can't eliminate danger or risk, but the way we think and ski can reduce, at least statistically, our exposure to risk.

Anyways, and on a lighter note, some fond summer memories. I loved that Duc.....the greatest Banana yellow machine ever.
http://www.postimage.org/Pq42uYW0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq42uYW0)

HowieT2
01-10-2008, 09:41 AM
....but one that will be discussed....very thoroughly.....in our household. My boys are 9 & 7, and I've tried to temper my enthusiasm for them "going for it" against my general parental paranoia for my kids, and my understanding, after all these years, of the inherent risks of the sport.

Years ago I scratched a long time itch.....riding sport bikes. When the first Ninja's came on the scene in the early 1980's, I saw them and thought "I gotta get me one of those things". Lucky I didn't, or I'm sure I'd have likely become a statistic. But the itch remained, and in my mid-30's I decided it had to be scratched. Freaking out family and friends, I said "I'm going to ride". First thing out of everyone's mouth was "Isn't that dangerous ?" or "I know a guy who's brother....".

It brought up the issue of Danger vs. Risk. Degrees of danger vs. management of calculated risk. And with riding motorcycles, there are about 5 major factors one can employ to take the risk of street riding and cut it down, statistically, to a fraction of what most riders face when they turn the key. I rode for 6 years, I scratched the itch over close to 20k of Sunday sport rides, and I stopped when my wife said, after having our third child, that she didn't breathe from the time I rode off until the garage door went up when I returned. She wasn't asking me to stop....but she was asking me to stop.

Anyways, I've tried to be a teacher on the slopes for my boys with regard to thinking about risk and exposure as we ski. Beneath the joy of sliding on snow can be a foundation of managing the inherent risk that you face from the time you click in until you're sitting in the bathtub recalling another great day. I don't really know how many people on the slopes think like that. I bump into too many people these days who have never even heard of the skier's responsibility code. Scary.

And many times, people's assumptions of inherent risk are based on a trail's rating. In many ways, Jester can be considered to be more dangerous than Rumble. Fall on rumble and the bumps, coutours, and likely speed you've been carrying while skiing it, can all actually help assure you'll be able to regain control. Fall in the wrong place on Jester, and your margin of safety can be non-existent with the trees as your stopping devices....and usually your speed is likely much higher than other trails.

Anyways, sorry to ramble. These sad events always feel like a kick in the gut. But a discussion of risk factors, inherent dangers, and what we can do to try to minimize our exposure as skiers is something I will revisit with my boys, and girls, again. It shouldn't take this type of tragedy at SB, or any ski area for that matter, to remind us to try to think and ski in a way that anticipates, and avoids, as many of the potential danger points inherent to sliding on snow as possible. We can't eliminate danger or risk, but the way we think and ski can reduce, at least statistically, our exposure to risk.

Anyways, and on a lighter note, some fond summer memories. I loved that Duc.....the greatest Banana yellow machine ever.
http://www.postimage.org/Pq42uYW0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq42uYW0)

Your wife was right. I'm a personal injury lawyer and deal with accidents everyday. You do not want to be on a roadway without some serious metal between you and the surroundings. Motorcycle accidents almost invariable end badly for the rider. No matter how good a rider you are and what you do to reduce your risk, there are way too many other idiots driving.

smootharc
01-10-2008, 09:47 AM
Your wife was right. I'm a personal injury lawyer and deal with accidents everyday. You do not want to be on a roadway without some serious metal between you and the surroundings. Motorcycle accidents almost invariable end badly for the rider. No matter how good a rider you are and what you do to reduce your risk, there are way too many other idiots driving.

Safest way to ride sportbikes....join a club and hit their track days. Controlled environment....no cars/trucks....and, at least in theory, everyone pointed in the same direction.

In all my miles, I only felt twice that I'd been really lucky with an idiot. But imagining every driver I saw was an idiot....a good way to think. Unfortunately, sometimes the idiot was the guy on my bike with his hand on the throttle.....me !

madhavok
01-11-2008, 02:23 PM
How and where did this tragic accident happen?

Yard Sale
01-11-2008, 02:40 PM
Your wife was right. I'm a personal injury lawyer and deal with accidents everyday. You do not want to be on a roadway without some serious metal between you and the surroundings. Motorcycle accidents almost invariable end badly for the rider. No matter how good a rider you are and what you do to reduce your risk, there are way too many other idiots driving.

Safest way to ride sportbikes....join a club and hit their track days. Controlled environment....no cars/trucks....and, at least in theory, everyone pointed in the same direction.

In all my miles, I only felt twice that I'd been really lucky with an idiot. But imagining every driver I saw was an idiot....a good way to think. Unfortunately, sometimes the idiot was the guy on my bike with his hand on the throttle.....me !

I owned a "Donor-cycle" in my youth.

tomthumb
01-12-2008, 09:37 PM
How and where did this tragic accident happen?

I believe it was Lower Organgrinder, but not positive. I do know he was not wearing a helmet.

happygirl
01-13-2008, 08:07 AM
When it comes to ski safety, a helmet is just 1/4 of the pie. For starters: 1. Never ski when your tired, 2. Avoid high traffic slopes. I hate to say this, but a pack of teenage boys can be pretty reckless. They lack a certain judgement and maturity. Young boys are always trying to one up each other.

Strat
01-13-2008, 10:26 AM
Not always... the stereotypes can be true, but are not always correct. If you watch a group of so-called "reckless" young skiers or snowboarders, it's often apparent that though they may ride quickly and aggressively, they rarely crash or impact others, because even though their speed is due to some level of immaturity, it's also backed up by some level of confidence and skill. Occasionally you will see one or two stupid young fiends bombing straight down the mountain, headed for some pain (whether it will be their's or someone else's), but most of the time those who are going fast are not actually out of control. They have been doing their sport long enough that they are confident in their abilities to stop or correct their direction before they encounter a tree or a small child.

tomthumb
01-13-2008, 11:56 AM
I don't think there's any good excuse for not wearing a helmet in this day and age. That being said, they don't necessarily make you a safer skier or rider. A helmet will help with a fall on hard pack, ice, or even rock, and with glancing blows from branches or other objects. But you won't be helped much from a high speed direct impact with an immoveable object (tree, lift tower, snow making equipment, etc.) But they are warm (or well vented if you prefer), can be water proof in marginal conditions, and keep your goggles from fogging when you put them up on your forehead! I'm not comfortable skiing without one anymore, even if I'm just taking it easy cruising with my wife.

castlerock
01-13-2008, 12:09 PM
That being said, they don't necessarily make you a safer skier or rider. .

I know the above quote isn't what you meant, as it is flat out wrong.

A proper helmet DOES make you a safer skier or rider. There is no question about it.

Just as wearing a seatbelt in a car does not protect you from a direct hit by an asteroid, a helmet will not protect you from being impaled on a branch at mach 10, going off the side of a trail.

A helmet makes you safer, maybe marginally, but safer none the less.

tomthumb
01-13-2008, 12:39 PM
Well, I've see many skiers and riders with helmets on that are unsafe :wink: They're helmet might be protecting thier own noggin, but when they plow into you, the helmet on thier head isn't going to help you in any way. So I guess what I was saying is a matter of symantics. The helmet protects you personally, but wearing it does not make you safer to everyone else on the hill. Sorry for the confusion. I don't makes me-self clear sometimes.

castlerock
01-13-2008, 12:53 PM
.......but when they plow into you, the helmet on thier head isn't going to help you in any way.

...when they plow into me or my kids...It is my second biggest fear about skiing. I'm generally rational on skis, but buzz my kids and I will catch you and let you know about it.

My biggest fear is just starting to come to fruition as my kids are too good for their experience, cognitive caution level. I can see their confidence getting them into the "too fast, too close to the trees problem".

Another good reason to ski in the woods with them. You never (or at least rarely) go too fast.

Tin Woodsman
01-13-2008, 01:59 PM
Another good reason to ski in the woods with them. You never (or at least rarely) go too fast.

Amen. That's where i'm taking my kids as soon as they're old enough. I feel much safer than than with the masses on trail.

boze
01-14-2008, 02:19 PM
Been skiing w/ my 10 yr old son in the trees for several seasons. He's a much better skier for it, and has learned quite a few 'tricks' at my side including some that involve getting out of dicey situations such as exhuming buried skis, dealing with downed trees, riverbeds and pine tree thickets...including the notion of being vigilant about avoiding many of those situations in the firstplace. And while he enjoys ripping it up on the trails, he generally meanders his way through the woods in search of fresh lines at very moderate speeds. Also knows to look & shout "coming out" when exiting the woods / re-joining the trail. Wish more tree skiers would share that safe & helpful habit.

** NOTE: PLS SEE CLARIFICATION POSTED A FEW ENTRIES LATER IN THIS THREAD **

Hawk
01-15-2008, 01:15 PM
Actually Boze, the trail skier has the right of way. The tree skier is proceeding at his/her own risk. The proper thing to do is stop short of the trail, look and then go. That is if you can't see the trail well enough. If I was on the trail and someone yelled "coming out" and then proceeded to cut me off or hit me, I would have strong words for that individual.

freeheel_skier
01-15-2008, 09:43 PM
If I was on the trail and someone yelled "coming out" and then proceeded to cut me off or hit me, I would have strong words for that individual.

Ditto...

Happens all the time on Northsatar, Lower RR and Lookin Good @ ME.

boze
01-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Actually Boze, the trail skier has the right of way. The tree skier is proceeding at his/her own risk. The proper thing to do is stop short of the trail, look and then go. That is if you can't see the trail well enough. If I was on the trail and someone yelled "coming out" and then proceeded to cut me off or hit me, I would have strong words for that individual.

Sorry to be unclear, but that's not what I was [trying to] say. Not doubt trail skiers have right of way. And common sense & eyeballs still need to do their job.

Irrespective of what the tree skier sees enroute to clear the woods, whether they travelling slow, from a stop or a bit less cautious, there's times when the view is imparied - -we're in the trees, remember?

So in ADDITION TO taking the obvious look-see, I've found it helpful (and have appreciated it while I've been on the trail) to also give a good clear shout. Sometimes in snowy conditions, etc even fellow trail skiers can't readily judge distance and/or obstacles. A 'shout out' is not at all a replacement for 'the basics' - but it is an added safety habit.

Hope that clarifies for any who may have taken that particular comment the wrong way.

Hawk
01-16-2008, 07:19 AM
[quote="boze
Hope that clarifies for any who may have taken that particular comment the wrong way.[/quote]

It does...your scenario just stuck a chord because it just happened to me this past weekend. The individual looked at me like I was in his way....

outofshape
01-17-2008, 01:35 PM
Regardless of the circumstances, any loss of a loved one is tragic.

happygirl
01-17-2008, 01:44 PM
I know I feel bad for his parents.

jkvt
01-22-2008, 04:32 PM
That being said, they don't necessarily make you a safer skier or rider. .

I know the above quote isn't what you meant, as it is flat out wrong.

A proper helmet DOES make you a safer skier or rider. There is no question about it.

Just as wearing a seatbelt in a car does not protect you from a direct hit by an asteroid, a helmet will not protect you from being impaled on a branch at mach 10, going off the side of a trail.

A helmet makes you safer, maybe marginally, but safer none the less.

NO WAY. A helmet does NOT make you a safer skier or rider. It might make it safer if you crash, But, Skiing or riding in control makes you safer, as well it makes those you are skiing/riding around safer. I have seen too many idiots out there that think that just because they are wearing a helmet that they can go faster than their ability would normally allow.

That said I think they are great ideas, but it is a case of the user that makes the situation safer.


JMHO
jkvt

castlerock
01-22-2008, 05:18 PM
NO WAY. A helmet does NOT make you a safer skier or rider. It might make it safer if you crash, But, Skiing or riding in control makes you safer, as well it makes those you are skiing/riding around safer. I have seen too many idiots out there that think that just because they are wearing a helmet that they can go faster than their ability would normally allow.

That said I think they are great ideas, but it is a case of the user that makes the situation safer.


JMHO
jkvt

I'll continue the semantic argument one more time.

For any given level of stupidity as a skier or rider (really stupid, marginally stupid, or mildly bright) a helmet will make you marginally safer.

It won't make you smarter or more careful, but it will make you safer.

This is the same argument that people used to use about seatbelts. "Wearing seatbelts doesn't make you a safer driver". It is hogwash. You are safer with a seatbelt, you are safer with a helmet.

Lostone
01-22-2008, 06:45 PM
What castlerock said! 8)

A helmet will make you safer... Not smarter. :roll:

Wear a helmet. Ski like you don't. :wink:

win
01-22-2008, 10:55 PM
I now wear a helmet myself most of the time, and so do my 4 kids. There is no downside to wearing a helmet, but realize that if you are skiing or riding more than 15 mph it may not do must good. Most serious accidents are good skiers and riders on intermediate trails going way too fast gitting a imovable object. I ski too fast and so many of you. We are all taking a risk regardless of whether or not we are wearing helmets. Ski and Ride carefully.

boze
01-23-2008, 12:24 AM
A bit off topic, but does anyone know how the person who was getting extracted Sunday mid-day by a team of ski patrollers from just off skier's right of lower Rim Run near Spinout intersection made out? That person looked to be in tough spot. Hope things worked out for the best.