New improvments for Sugarbush 07 - 08 season

[madhavok]

Well it was a very busy summer for me, (work not play). I did not make it up to Sugarbush and did no reading of this forum whatsoever. Heck I didn’t even have time to think about Sugarbush until this past Saturday.

I had just finish a delicious steak at Ben Benson’s and I was headed down 7th Avenue crossing 38th St. when all of a sudden a tour bus runs a red light and almost hits me. Lucky for me I had my wits about me (as always needed when walking the streets of NY) and I was able to step back out of its way. As the bus passes what do I see? The big words ”Sugarbush” with a picture of John Egan. That reminded me, winter is upon us, and I will be spending my Thanksgiving at Sugarbush in just a few weeks. That got me wondering about what has been going on at Sugarbush

Last time I read the forum it sounded like the Valley house lodge was getting torn down so the chair could be extended to the base of the mountain (meaning not having to hike to get to it). The chair was also getting extended at the top for safety reasons (thank god!). It also sounded like the chair was most likely getting replaced with a new fixed triple.

Additionally at South there was talk about adding a snow melting system for the paved walkway between Claybrook and Gatehouse lodge.

Another thing mentioned here, which I’m sure will take more time was possibly adding terrain above the Inverness chair at North.

Can anyone update me with the status of these projects as well other improvements for the 07 – 08 ski season? I’m getting pumped for some POW!

Ok, that was way too long, I have to get back to work.

[Tin Woodsman]

Last time I read the forum it sounded like the Valley house lodge was getting torn down so the chair could be extended to the base of the mountain (meaning not having to hike to get to it). The chair was also getting extended at the top for safety reasons (thank god!). It also sounded like the chair was most likely getting replaced with a new fixed triple.
VH lodge got a one-year reprieve due to the decision to delay the construction of the Guest Services Lodge. Any plans for the VH lift are longer term in nature, per Win. FWIW, I think he mentioned his preference is for a FGQ, not triple (though I'd certainly prefer the triple from a lift vs. trail capacity perspective).



Additionally at South there was talk about adding a snow melting system for the paved walkway between Claybrook and Gatehouse lodge.
I hadn't heard about that, though it's definitely necessary. If they did it, they sure are keeping quiet about it.



Another thing mentioned here, which I’m sure will take more time was possibly adding terrain above the Inverness chair at North.
That's probably something more appropriate for your kids to speculate about - hard to imagine it will get done in our skiing lifetimes.



Can anyone update me with the status of these projects as well other improvements for the 07 – 08 ski season?
I inquired in this very space a few months back and was met with a wall of silence. I'm sure there were various odds and ends that were refined or enhanced in the off-season, but they sure do like to kep whatever they did secret.

Win - can you detail the capital program for this off-season for us? You've been pretty quiet on the subject. By delaying the Guest Services lodge, what improvements were you able to implement in Claybrook, the GH lodge and Timbers given the free time you created?

[Lostone]

I am not Win, nor do I play him on TV. :lol:

I don't think there were any major improvements, this summer. Instead, the drive was to do a lot of touch up on the things that had to be completed from last year's rush to get the base area finished.

The other big thing was to get the resort working in the other seasons, which is very important. No ski resort can just be that. All must be four season resorts, and this summer, the place was quite busy.

As to the snow melt system, I believe the plan is still to have facilities spread a concrete-friendly chemical. Toward the end of the season, they were getting much better at it.



Beyond that, I just think they've ordered a lot more snow. :D

[summitchallenger]

FWIW I saw Mountain Ops transporting what appeared to be new HKD guns from the base of LP.

[Tin Woodsman]

I don't think there were any major improvements, this summer. Instead, the drive was to do a lot of touch up on the things that had to be completed from last year's rush to get the base area finished.
Wasn't expecting major improvements. Would love it if someone could articulate the substance of the touch-ups.

[Tin Woodsman]

FWIW I saw Mountain Ops transporting what appeared to be new HKD guns from the base of LP.

Now that's news.

[Bubba]

the Wunderbar is re-openning!

[Treeskier]

The snow melt system was scraped due to $ and the weight of Fire Trucks that need access to that road. I hear.

[HowieT2]

The snow melt system was scraped due to $ and the weight of Fire Trucks that need access to that road. I hear.

Good thing too because I think the problem lies more in the slipperiness of the surface (coefficient of friction).

[BushMogulMaster]

(coefficient of friction).

Speaking of mu, what's nu?

(lame chemistry joke... forgive me)

[ski_resort_observer]

New beds at the Sugarbush Inn and I think folks will be impressed with the changes at Timbers under Exec Chef Gerry Nooney of Egans Big World Grille fame. Heard lots of compliments over the summer.

[smootharc]

.....the massive mountain biking center infrastructure, zip-line, and frisbee golf, though non-winter improvements, are major improvements nonetheless.

The amount of base area energy "off season" was great to see and be a part of.

[win]

Sorry, I am slow to answer here!

We had a large number of punch list items at both Clay Brook and the Gate House that could not be started until Spring. Anything from final painting, to landscaping, to final masonry etc., so that was a major effort. We did purchase two new groomers for this winter, did a lot of basic maintenance and a pump rebuild on our snowmaking system and retrofitted a number of our guns to generate more capacity and operate more efficicently. We did put a substantial amount of dollars and energy into our summer programs, and we viewed the summer as a great success with over 2,000 rides on the zip line, a comparable number of disc golf rounds and a very successful PDGA tournament. Mountain biking got rave reviews, and I even got out on the bike a couple of times and got some good tips from John Atkinson. We also did a lot at the golf course. Mike Wing and his team had the course in the best shape ever and built a new tee on 16, a new trap and turnaround area on 8, started a major irrigation project on 6 and reclaimed the pond on 16 in addition to having both the fairways and the greems in tip top shape. They have also done and will continue to do a lot of tree trimming throughout the course which allows sun and air to get through and restores many of the designed views of the mountains. The Sugarbush Inn bed base was increased. There are also every year a number of behind the scene capex projects which are not that visible but are essential.

This year you will see a really different approach at Timbers under Gerry Nooney's leadeship. He plans to have a first rate luncheon buffet in Timbers on the weekends which will allow for a much quicker turnaround. He will have good bar food and cocktail waitresses for Apres ski. His food has been getting excellent reviews, and he now has a very good team out front. In the Gate House the major change upstairs is that one will be able to get a beer there, so families do not have to go down to Castlerock Pub for a parent to get a beer for lunch. We are also modifying the menu to allow for quick service. We are also opening Valley House and the Wunderbar on Saturdays and Holdiays so with three bars for lunch and apres ski, we think we will have adequate space for the winter. (The new guest service lodge will have a restaurant and bar.)

[random_ski_guy]

In the Gate House the major change upstairs is that one will be able to get a beer there, so families do not have to go down to Castlerock Pub for a parent to get a beer for lunch. We are also modifying the menu to allow for quick service. We are also opening Valley House and the Wunderbar on Saturdays and Holdiays so with three bars for lunch and apres ski, we think we will have adequate space for the winter. (The new guest service lodge will have a restaurant and bar.)

I think the ability to have a beer in the main dining hall, outside of the pub, will be a huge improvement. Kudos on that change. That was something I didn't think you would be able to do given how seemingly strick the alcohol laws are in VT. Even better is the titillating news of more dinning space at the guest service lodge when that goes forward. Stellar. :D

[thinksnow]

In the Gate House the major change upstairs is that one will be able to get a beer there, so families do not have to go down to Castlerock Pub for a parent to get a beer for lunch. We are also modifying the menu to allow for quick service. We are also opening Valley House and the Wunderbar on Saturdays and Holdiays so with three bars for lunch and apres ski, we think we will have adequate space for the winter. (The new guest service lodge will have a restaurant and bar.)


Excellent news!!

[Yard Sale]

In the Gate House the major change upstairs is that one will be able to get a beer there, so families do not have to go down to Castlerock Pub for a parent to get a beer for lunch. We are also modifying the menu to allow for quick service. We are also opening Valley House and the Wunderbar on Saturdays and Holdiays so with three bars for lunch and apres ski, we think we will have adequate space for the winter. (The new guest service lodge will have a restaurant and bar.)


Excellent news!!

Ah, alcohol, the source of and solution to all of life's problems. Cheers! :wink:

[Tin Woodsman]

Sorry, I am slow to answer here!
We did purchase two new groomers for this winter, did a lot of basic maintenance and a pump rebuild on our snowmaking system and retrofitted a number of our guns to generate more capacity and operate more efficicently.
The new groomers will definitely help. You do a great job finding the right balance between grooming and not grooming, but having more firepower to get things done more quickly and more thoroughly is always aplus, especially in variable weather situations. Definitely good news on the snowmaking system upgrades. Where the gun/pump rebuilds concentrated in any particular area, or spread all over the mountains?


This year you will see a really different approach at Timbers under Gerry Nooney's leadeship. He plans to have a first rate luncheon buffet in Timbers on the weekends which will allow for a much quicker turnaround. He will have good bar food and cocktail waitresses for Apres ski. His food has been getting excellent reviews, and he now has a very good team out front.
All very good news. I may just have to wander over to check that buffet out this year. Having a a first-rate apres offering so close to GH is nice as well if you don't want to trudge up the hill to the Wunderbar.


In the Gate House the major change upstairs is that one will be able to get a beer there, so families do not have to go down to Castlerock Pub for a parent to get a beer for lunch. We are also modifying the menu to allow for quick service. We are also opening Valley House and the Wunderbar on Saturdays and Holdiays so with three bars for lunch and apres ski, we think we will have adequate space for the winter. (The new guest service lodge will have a restaurant and bar.)

This is the best news of all. I'm no architect, but it seemed to me that having both a restaurant and bar in the new bldg would be critical in supporting the vitality of the core of the new base village. It would lessen the concentration of activity between GH and Timbers, and would spread things out a little bit to encompass the new lodge (while taking MUCH NEEDED pressure off of the CR pub). The plaza should be buzzing when it's completed and it serves as a great springboard for the eventual expansion of the new village to the north.

[Strat]

Good news on the 2nd restaurant. I assume during the off-season it and Timbers won't both be open - no way enough business could be done to even offset the cost of opening. Is it going to be more family oriented than Timbers? (not that Timbers doesn't work well for the family).

Can we start the naming contest? Something trail-related would make sense I think... Castlerock's already taken... what else is distinctive? Maybe "Sleeper's" to go with the family theme?

[smootharc]

Can we start the naming contest?

How about "Freshies".

Or meet me in "The White Room".

[ski_resort_observer]

Can we start the naming contest?

How about "Freshies".

Or meet me in "The White Room".

great song Cream

[MntMan4Bush]

The golf clubs are officially put away for the season and now I'm salivating at the thought of strapping the ole planks on my feet and never taking them off. You know I never seem to get upset while I'm skiing like I do as I slice my third drive of the tee shot into the treeline. All season long I think about the Bush and now comes that joyous time of year.

I'm glad they didn't try to do too much this off season and instead refine the massive updates that were done last season. That will allow everything to settle and make the implementation of the new GH a bit easier then having too much going on at once. Sounds like we've got some good improvements and I look forward to another snow filled season, good eats at Timbers and a few, just a few of course, cold Longtrails.

If we're taking names for the new Bar in the GH how about the Sugarshack? Too cheesy a name? Then how Jack Frost's? Having a cold one at Frosty's doesn't seem like too bad an idea.

Welcome back all!!!!!!

[ScoobySnack]

How about "The Powder Room"? :)

[win]

Keep the names ideas coming!

[Yard Sale]

How about "The Slidebrook Beer Habitat"

[boze]

I'd like to see it named "Stein's"

Simple
Historic
Not to mention linkage with my favorite drinking vessel, the mighty 'beer stein'


And Win could announce it this weekend, at dinner in honor of Stein Eriksen

[HowieT2]

Mushroom II

[Yard Sale]

I'd like to see it named "Stein's"

Simple
Historic
Not to mention linkage with my favorite drinking vessel, the mighty 'beer stein'


And Win could announce it this weekend, at dinner in honor of Stein Eriksen

Very nice Boze. This one sings to me. I second. "Stein's"

[Lostone]

How about "The Den" The place downtown is gone, and it could be partialled with the bear den, for the min-micro and assorted other bears... or beers? :wink:

[ScoobySnack]

There's always Upper Castlerock Pub and Lower Castlerock Pub.

[aejkb]

Here are my suggestions: Winthrop's or The Catamount. I like Stein's, also.

[noski]

How about "The Slidebrook Beer Habitat" That's funny. Can you drink beer in there in the Fall or Springtime? Do you have to be really quiet in there? Do they serve beech nuts with the beer?

[Strat]

There's always Upper Castlerock Pub and Lower Castlerock Pub.
Haha, clever...

[ski_resort_observer]

There's always Upper Castlerock Pub and Lower Castlerock Pub.

Tin will want both expanded :wink:

"Legends Cafe"

[Tin Woodsman]

There's always Upper Castlerock Pub and Lower Castlerock Pub.

Tin will want both expanded :wink:



Kapow!

[madhavok]

While I was hoping for a major ski improvement (such as a new Valley House lift) I’m not ignorant. I realize Sugarbush had to get a summer program going (basically from scratch) and there were probably tons and little details around the new base that were missed due to last years push. No doubt this is time consuming and I’m sure you guys were busy this off season.

Still, at some point Sugarbush will have to invest in a few more new lifts. I personally hope Valley House and Heaven's Gate get replaced over the next 5 or so years. Additionally I'm really interested to see if Sugarbush could actually pull off any expansion of the skiing terrain (I have read bits about trying expanding above the Inverness area over at North, once again). I'll really be interested to know what Sugarbush is thinking of planning.

So if anyone in the know would care to share (please!) what improvements are really on the table for Sugarbush over the next 3 or 4 years and what improvements are they just dreaming of, I’d really appreciate it. I promise you won't get any negative feedback (from me at least) and I won't hold you to anything!

[Tin Woodsman]

Crickets

[djd66]

How about developing the area between North and South (slidebrook) Take out the slidebrook express q and replace it with 2 or 3 quads. That would truly give Sugarbush some of the best skiing in the Northeast and would conect North and South with skiing rather than connecting them by lift.

[BushMogulMaster]

How about developing the area between North and South (slidebrook) Take out the slidebrook express q and replace it with 2 or 3 quads. That would truly give Sugarbush some of the best skiing in the Northeast and would conect North and South with skiing rather than connecting them by lift.

As great as the skiing would be, it's never gonna happen. Between USFS and protected Wildlife land, not to mention Act 250 and a lot of locals who wouldn't be happy, it's just not possible. It was all Les Otten could do to get the SBX in there... he had to fight that one for quite a while. In fact, I think his hope was that that would get his foot in the door to develop the Basin, but the idea was shot down a million times over for a million reasons.

[sugarboarder]

New beds at the Sugarbush Inn and I think folks will be impressed with the changes at Timbers under Exec Chef Gerry Nooney of Egans Big World Grille fame. Heard lots of compliments over the summer.

I'll vouch for the latter - food at Timbers is MUCH better now and VERY good!! :D

[djd66]

Its too bad. Development like that would really breath some much need life back into the Valley.

[BushMogulMaster]

Its too bad. Development like that would really breath some much need life back into the Valley.

I don't know. There are other opportunities for expansion. I think the Slide Brook Basin is special as it is. Developing it would kill a vital part of the Sugarbush character and atmosphere, imo.

[Lostone]

Yeah, I fail to see how that would breathe much life into the valley. And with the increase of the pass and ticket cost, to pay for two HSQs... ? :?

The way Slidebrook works is special in and out of ski season. :wink:

[ski_resort_observer]

Its too bad. Development like that would really breath some much need life back into the Valley.

The new Claybrook/Gatehouse/Timbers developement has been open less than a year. Getting that still somewhat new huge developement working on all cylinders is better than jumping into something new. Phase Two of the LP plan is in the on deck circle.

The Bush and MRG with it's investment in the new single chair are doing their part, perhaps the local economy needs other parts of the valley business community to do some breathing. Lots of obstacles for that unfortunately. I was very disappointed when the town of Waitsfield denied Small Dog Electronics and Vermont Pack and Paddle permits to expand. Mad River Canoe left the valley and went south, literally. It would have been awesome to have canoes built in the valley again.

[sugarboarder]

Having lived here in the valley for three plus years now, I am continually amazed at SOME of the local people's resistance to change of ANY kind. I realize that is what keeps rural areas rural, but some of these folks want to go back to living in huts and pumping water by hand...kind of hard for growth to occur in that scenario - personal growth included...and they don't seem happy about it, they just seem angry at SO many things. I thought there would be more community here, but in many ways there is not. I'm not saying I don't enjoy it here, or that everyone is like that - I've made some good friends and met plenty of good folks...just making an observation as a somewhat new resident here.

[boze]

even though i am a lowlander i can at least agree with your views on Timbers, sugarboarder. we had our 5th or 6th family lunch there (spread evenly in the months since it opened...almost a year now). to say that in the past we were disappointed is being kind. and let's not talk about the dinners. not that those were atrocious events, just that the food was more consistently bad or mediocre, and the service was insanely b a d. if you ate there before the most recent change then you likely know.

anyway, our lunch Sat was a very different deal. in fact, it was pretty terrific. even the service was decent. while it was not speedy it also was not overly slow. is that 'relaxed'? on balance, an experience much closer to what I think they were shooting for. definately an improvement. congrats, win & team.

[Hawk]

djd66 wrote:
Its too bad. Development like that would really breath some much need life back into the Valley.


I think development in the Slidebrook area would receive the same reaction from the locals that Les Otten got when he proposed snow making on castle rock. It is also very true, (IMHO) that it would ruin the most amazing experience that Sugarbush has to offer.

Sugarboarder's observations are interesting. I have observed some of this. I can understand someone that was born and raised in the Valley not wanting their world to change. I am the same way back in my home town. I think that it is highly unfair when people quit life in the big city, move up here, build their dream house and then say, “No more development". There has to be a balance to keep the valley's economy going in a positive direction. I also wonder if the recent business closings around the valley are an indicator or a fringe result of the town planning board and Con/Com impacting the local economy......

[summitchallenger]

Re: Slidebrook expansion

I think that as a condition of putting in the Slidebrook Express, they had to sign away the development rights of that basin to the USFS. So that is a no-go. I do recall hearing that there was a "long term possibility" of expansion above Inverness....some day....

As for the rest of the place, it is pretty much "built out." Other than replacing some lifts, I don't know what else they could do.

[madhavok]

Since we got on the Slidebrook expansion…. Its never ever going to happen but here are my thoughts.

With or without Slidebrook expansion first get rid of the Slidebrook Express. This chair does nothing for me. If I am skiing South, then I am skiing South and the same goes for North. If for some odd reason I really feel the need to go from one mountain to the other I’d rather take a shuttle bus.

Next if expansion were possible add two chairlifts in Slidebrook, one up to North, and one up to South. For both lifts you add one trail on each side of the lift line. These trails should be classic New England style, lots of windy turns and narrow. Now I know some say this would ruin the Slidebrook backcountry, but I think it would only give you access to even more amazing backcountry. Some of the sickest & steepest lines are found smack in the middle of Mt. Ellen and Castlerock Peak, but it’s hard to get to, and even harder to get out.

Also I’d like to add Sugarboarder is right, the Mad River Valley community is extremely opposed to any change, good or bad. And over the past twenty plus years I’ve been up coming up here, I’ve seen some pretty asinine positions against change, now let me just leave it at that.

Back to my post, what about some realistic upgrades? Above Inverness there was one a lift line cut. It might actually be feasible to add some terrain up there, and I for one think it would be a huge improvement for North. Giving north one more piece of terrain would make it much more attractive and probably take at least some of the high demand off South.

[HowieT2]

Since we got on the Slidebrook expansion…. Its never ever going to happen but here are my thoughts.

With or without Slidebrook expansion first get rid of the Slidebrook Express. This chair does nothing for me. If I am skiing South, then I am skiing South and the same goes for North. If for some odd reason I really feel the need to go from one mountain to the other I’d rather take a shuttle bus.

Next if expansion were possible add two chairlifts in Slidebrook, one up to North, and one up to South. For both lifts you add one trail on each side of the lift line. These trails should be classic New England style, lots of windy turns and narrow. Now I know some say this would ruin the Slidebrook backcountry, but I think it would only give you access to even more amazing backcountry. Some of the sickest & steepest lines are found smack in the middle of Mt. Ellen and Castlerock Peak, but it’s hard to get to, and even harder to get out.

Also I’d like to add Sugarboarder is right, the Mad River Valley community is extremely opposed to any change, good or bad. And over the past twenty plus years I’ve been up coming up here, I’ve seen some pretty asinine positions against change, now let me just leave it at that.

Back to my post, what about some realistic upgrades? Above Inverness there was one a lift line cut. It might actually be feasible to add some terrain up there, and I for one think it would be a huge improvement for North. Giving north one more piece of terrain would make it much more attractive and probably take at least some of the high demand off South.

While the merits of the SBX are debatable, I don't think removing it makes much sense. The costs associated with it are sunk, and it can't cost much to operate. Furthermore, there are many days when people need to start at one Mt but want to ski the other for a multitude of reasons. So there is a definite benefit to it.

As for talking about terrain expansion at ME, I think it is premature. First the infrastructure improvements need to be completed at LP before even discussing ME, and we are years away from even that. The ski school, rentals etc are still operating out of temporary structures and while the Guest Services lodge appears to be planned for, there hasn't been much talk of when a shovel is going to hit the ground.

[Tin Woodsman]

I'd echo Howie's thoughts on the SBX. It's a sunk cost, and using it only on weekends and holidays ensures that you get something for your operating costs. I think that lift appeals to a variety of user groups and, more importantly, represents a tangible fixed link between ME and LP that allows you to really think of SB as a single ski area (unlike, say, Killington/Pico or Mt. Snow/Haystack).

Upper Inverness pod would be great, but that won't happen for quite a few years. First you have the build-out at LP village. this could take 5-10 years itself. You also have to allocate capital towards the planned upgrades (not just minor fixes) of the snowmaking system, including connecting the two currently separate systems to provide ME with more water. That's a big ticket.

Only then do you consider significant upgrades at ME, including some sort of replacement or expansion of the base lodge, and maybe even some residential component on the large amount of SB-owned land at the base. It's hard to know how they'll proceed at ME b/c at some point you run into the issue of duplicating services/functions/fixed costs with what exists at LP. Nonetheless, adding an Upper Inverness pos would represent a tremendous game changer in terms of its atractiveness as a skiing destination. The one complaint you typically hear about ME is that it skis "narrow" and many of the trails seem the same. The vast majority of people spend their day on the GMX/NRX/Summit area w/o venturing to Inverness, so they don't realize that MW is actually pretty big. Also, b/c Lower FIS opens infrequently, that also has the effect of making the place ski smaller than it is. If you add Upper Inverness and then upgrade the current Inverness to a HSQ (you almost have to as it becomes a trunk lift), that really changes everything. You spread people out in a similar manner that Gate House/North Lynx do at LP, and you do so with high-elevation terrain that appears to be perfect for intermediates. Throw in the fact that this pod would enjoy the only late-day sun at a generally frosty ME and you've really got a winner on your hands.

Regardless, in addition to the internal priority issues noted above, you also have the approval process to deal with. That area is on private land, but would still be subject to state (Act 250) and possibly local review. In short, don't expect it for at least a decade. Would love for Win to prove me wrong.

[summitchallenger]

So many good points on ME and expansion. There are a lot of things to do and upgrade...in a market that has been fairly flat.

I thought I saw in one of the plans from LBO's 1994-1995 expansion that they put in place a pipeline that connected the two snowmaking systems? Or was that another "we want to do it, but never did" routine that ASC pulled?

[ski_resort_observer]

I love the SBX and use it when it's operating as I always start at ME and like the fact I can ski LP without going down to the crowds at the LP base. I also think changing ME would be a mistake. Keeping the two areas diferent appeals to a much broader ski market and makes the Bush very unique among the competition.

The overall goal of all this stuff is to get the Bush back to it's top level of the late 80's/early 90's regarding skier visits. I can think of a few improvements to ME but not until the set goals the Bush has are achieved. We are on the right path IMHO.

Regarding expansion into SB Basin, it's for all intents and purposes a non-issue. While the Bush actually owns most of the bowl, the Long Trail folks(much to John's discern :wink:) controls the top part which includes endangered species issues(Bricknell Thrush) and the GMFS's Critical Bear Habitat area is small but right in the center of the lower part of the bowl and also involves the Vermont G & F. The bear issue effects/restricts things throughout the entire basin. Be happy that the lift was built and limited access into the basin is allowed.

[madhavok]

Jeez, bear issues? Oh yeah I remember ASC had to cut the SBX lift line in like 48 hours because the because the bears started a critical feeding period on the beech nuts or whatever. Anyway the same day they had to put down the chain saws, was also the start of bear hunting! Can't make noise with a chain saw but you can kill them with a gun..

[ski_resort_observer]

Jeez, bear issues? Can't make noise with a chain saw but you can kill them with a gun..

You can't hunt them n Slide Brook so I don't see your point. Hunting whatever animal, deer, bear or elk anywhere in the country is made up of places you can hunt them and places you can't and usually for good reasons.

I could be wrong here but I'm pretty sure training a chimp to fire a gun and hunt with you is not allowed in any state. :wink: Interestingly in places where hunting a particular animal is so restricted that a lottery is held(moose and bear are two examples in Vermont), once in awhile you read about a few hunters who register their dogs and other pets in order to increase their chances of getting to hunt.

[win]

Lot's of things to answer. What can we realistically try to do in the next 3-4 years.? First is to build the Guest Services Lodge on the footprint of the interim village. We are planning to go forward next Spring, but this will depend upon the completion of Clay Brook sales, the success of this winter and a financing package that is acceptable. I am determined not to make the mistake of others by overexpanding, over leveraging and hoping! That said we are planning to go forward in the Spring, if the things I mentioned materialize, and at this point they look encouraging. You can help by bringing your friends up this winter.

In the next 3-4 years, we would like to replace the Village Lift with a triple most likely and probably locate it closer to the parking lot level. Once the Guest Services Lodge is completed we would like to replace the Valley House lift with a fixed grip triple or quad. I will not put a high speed there, though. That would put too much traffic on that part of the mountain. Heaven's Gate has a lot of life left. Some might like to get up quicker on a cold day, but part of the charm of Sugarbush is not over populating the trails, and I am very skeptical of a high speed quad there and what it would do to the experience.

We are working to expand the sanctioned skiing and riding in the Slidebrook basin and have done a number of habitat studies and I am hopeful this will happen. We will not develop any portion of this area. It is too important a habitat area, and even if we were not restricted, I would not do it. In all honesty, I would not have put in the SB Express, but it is there; many love it, so unless there was a trade-off I could not refuse, it will probably remain.

We have also filed a master plan with the USFS where we envision only a few more cut trails, but quite a bit more wooded or gladed areas on both the LP and ME sides. Studies are required. We have done a lot, and we have an excellent relationship with our tenant. The area above Inverness which is our land but subject to Fayston review and Act 250 holds a lot of promise!

As far as Sugarboarder's comments, it is difficult to do some things here, and there are people who do not like change. However, let's remember that we all love this Valley because it is different. Life is better here in the MRV. And, we have to appreciate that there is a good balance between new and the status quo. We are going to debate and argue over this, but my opinion is that this is positive and which results long-term in a must better place for all of us. We just need to be careful that the pendulum doesn't swing to an extreme. I will also add that I have found the the various town and State authorities that we have interfaced with to be professional, thoughtful and good to work with. Will we have differences? Of course, but so far rationale dialogue has worked. Occasionally an individual or two pops up that raises one's blood pressure, but that is life in a democratic society.

After giving a lot of thought over the years to what makes our Mountain different, we have arrived at a very simple thought. Life is Better here in the MRV. At Sugarbush we are striving to get better every year. And, we really believe that you can feel and be better here too! And, we think that a few extra minutes of travel makes all the difference in the quality of your life!

Now think snow and let's hope that the trend so far continues right through April!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shadyjay]

I'll say it again....
not too often is a president of a ski area so welcome to comment on a public forum (such as this) and let us know what's up for this season and the future. We are very fortunate to have someone like Win in charge. And not just us loyal Bush fans, but everyone who visits the mountain. From "Win's Word" on the sugarbush.com homepage, to his regular testing of the product and interacting with visitors proves he is there to make sure we are all enjoying ourselves, the product, and that we have the best experience possible. Its a lot better than having management sitting hundreds of miles away or in an office in the city spending the $$$ on a vacation in the islands. Someone like that wouldn't have even cared that there was plenty of snow on the mountain and no lifts spinning. Win saw this, after skinning up, and for that reason, and so many more, I give respect. Kudos to Win!

And he's absolutely right. There is something special and different about 'the Valley'.

Regarding change, since I've been coming to the Bush since 1990, the Valley itself hasn't changed that much. There are still no traffic lights. No development. The only new structures I can think of outside of the access road in recent years (and some new homes here or there, but no developments) has been Valero, Yestermorrow (that was an abandoned motel, kind of not really new development), and of course, Mac's, having been rebuilt 4 or 5 times. The access road itself remains much as it has since my family first made the trek up to the 'Bush. Sure, the restaurants have changed hands several times. The drive up the Access Road is a far cry from drives up access roads to Stowe and K-mart, where its wall-to-wall development, plus at the latter, traffic lights, shops, stores, and such. The only new significant changes you see is when you reach the peak of the access road, and we here can all appreciate those changes, for they benefit us skiers and riders.

The Valley is what gives Sugarbush part of its character, but its so much more. Its a pace that moves slower. A place where time almost stands still. A place where you can breathe a sigh of relief. Heck, I live only 10 minutes away, but when I make that turn off 100 or 17 to the Access Road or German Flats, I feel something come over me - the mountains call my name, and I just feel good - all bad disappears. Perhaps that's due to the lack of large-scale development. Perhaps its the Slide Brook Basin. All I know is that its something that I'll continue to call Sugarbush home for and hope it continues, and with someone like Win in charge, I feel we're in good hands.

And to end this, as Win summed up.... LET IT SNOW and continue through April!

-Jay

[HowieT2]

Great to hear that the GS lodge is on track for spring. From everything I have heard, seen and skied, SB is in goods hands. It is clear that SB is on the right track with sensible sustainable capital improvements.

Any hints on where the new trails are planned?

Win-you didn't mention any residential building near the new GS lodge. Is this in the cards ?

[win]

yes! We do need more slopeside beds. CB is already filling up for all the holidays.

[freeheel_skier]

We are working to expand the sanctioned skiing and riding in the Slidebrook basin and have done a number of habitat studies and I am hopeful this will happen. We will not develop any portion of this area. It is too important a habitat area, and even if we were not restricted, I would not do it. In all honesty, I would not have put in the SB Express, but it is there; many love it, so unless there was a trade-off I could not refuse, it will probably remain.



Now think snow and let's hope that the trend so far continues right through April!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like this response re: SBX. 8)

Trade off? If you were offered a $$$$ for the equipment you would sell it? :?

I just wish they would get rid of the bus stop @ the Slidebrook trailhead!

[ski_resort_observer]

I just wish they would get rid of the bus stop @ the Slidebrook trailhead!

It's not really an official bus stop, if people are there they will stop, the Mad Bus will pick people up anywhere along their route as long as it is safe. They are nice that way. :D

[madhavok]

Thanks Win!

[Hawk]

The access road itself remains much as it has since my family first made the trek up to the 'Bush. Sure, the restaurants have changed hands several times.

Jay, I have to disagree. Bass / Country Flair is gone. Migel's/Rositas is gone. The Bluetooth is gone. The Warren House is gone. That leaves the pub at the Sugarbush Inn as the only access road establishament. Obviously I am not counting the base area or German Flats for this observation. My point is that some bars/resturaunts on the access road are a good thing as new people come to the mountain. When trying to get new people converted to drinking our kool-aid, it makes a difference. This topic is the only complaint that I have faced when trying to convert my friends. I also realize that some people have the opinion that "We are a skier's mountain. If you want night life go to Killington". All I am saying is that it is nice to have a few more options and some variety. :)

[summitchallenger]

Yeah that's right....the Blue Tooth is gone along with many other places...that sucks.

[noski]

The access road itself remains much as it has since my family first made the trek up to the 'Bush. Sure, the restaurants have changed hands several times.

Jay, I have to disagree. Bass / Country Flair is gone. Migel's/Rositas is gone. The Bluetooth is gone. The Warren House is gone. That leaves the pub at the Sugarbush Inn as the only access road establishament. Obviously I am not counting the base area or German Flats for this observation. My point is that some bars/resturaunts on the access road are a good thing as new people come to the mountain. When trying to get new people converted to drinking our kool-aid, it makes a difference. This topic is the only complaint that I have faced when trying to convert my friends. I also realize that some people have the opinion that "We are a skier's mountain. If you want night life go to Killington". All I am saying is that it is nice to have a few more options and some variety. :)

This is a valid concern. While we have a few new restaurants online in the last 2-5 years, our "nightlife" has become a bit more challenged. The Big Picture is one that people may not think of. Not just movies, but quite often Claudia has special music events. So....Ski hard, eat well, and sleep tight.

[freeheel_skier]

I just wish they would get rid of the bus stop @ the Slidebrook trailhead!

It's not really an official bus stop, if people are there they will stop, the Mad Bus will pick people up anywhere along their route as long as it is safe. They are nice that way. :D

If that is the case, I kinda wish they were not so nice. Why can't they have designated stops? People would have to walk a bit to use the slackCountry.

[freeheel_skier]

I just wish they would get rid of the bus stop @ the Slidebrook trailhead!

It's not really an official bus stop, if people are there they will stop, the Mad Bus will pick people up anywhere along their route as long as it is safe. They are nice that way. :D

If that is the case, I kinda wish they were not so nice. Why can't they have designated stops? People would have to walk a bit to use the slackCountry.

[Tin Woodsman]

I just wish they would get rid of the bus stop @ the Slidebrook trailhead!

It's not really an official bus stop, if people are there they will stop, the Mad Bus will pick people up anywhere along their route as long as it is safe. They are nice that way. :D

If that is the case, I kinda wish they were not so nice. Why can't they have designated stops? People would have to walk a bit to use the slackCountry.

Kind of a selfish view, IMHO, seeing as how the vast majority of people who venture back there have fixed heels. It's not like the place is ever skied out.

[Tin Woodsman]

Lot's of things to answer. What can we realistically try to do in the next 3-4 years.? First is to build the Guest Services Lodge on the footprint of the interim village. We are planning to go forward next Spring, but this will depend upon the completion of Clay Brook sales, the success of this winter and a financing package that is acceptable. I am determined not to make the mistake of others by overexpanding, over leveraging and hoping! That said we are planning to go forward in the Spring, if the things I mentioned materialize, and at this point they look encouraging. You can help by bringing your friends up this winter.

In the next 3-4 years, we would like to replace the Village Lift with a triple most likely and probably locate it closer to the parking lot level. Once the Guest Services Lodge is completed we would like to replace the Valley House lift with a fixed grip triple or quad. I will not put a high speed there, though. That would put too much traffic on that part of the mountain. Heaven's Gate has a lot of life left. Some might like to get up quicker on a cold day, but part of the charm of Sugarbush is not over populating the trails, and I am very skeptical of a high speed quad there and what it would do to the experience.

We are working to expand the sanctioned skiing and riding in the Slidebrook basin and have done a number of habitat studies and I am hopeful this will happen. We will not develop any portion of this area. It is too important a habitat area, and even if we were not restricted, I would not do it. In all honesty, I would not have put in the SB Express, but it is there; many love it, so unless there was a trade-off I could not refuse, it will probably remain.

We have also filed a master plan with the USFS where we envision only a few more cut trails, but quite a bit more wooded or gladed areas on both the LP and ME sides. Studies are required. We have done a lot, and we have an excellent relationship with our tenant. The area above Inverness which is our land but subject to Fayston review and Act 250 holds a lot of promise!



Wow. Good stuff, Win. I thought there had been some discussion (speculation?) of a major overhaul to the snowmaking system. Specifically around fixing the ME water supply issue. I know ASC had planned to connect the two systems via a big pipe from LP to ME, but given your comments re: the SBX and habitat, it doesn't seem like you'd consider that a viable option. Is this a priority for you guys?

Also, care to comments on the types of changes you are hoping to implement with respect to activities in Slide Brook? One thing is for sure - to the extent that Slide Brook gets an enhanced profile and attendant traffic, you will really need to think about working with the Mad Bus folks on increasing capacity/frequency from the trail head on weekends and holidays in Feb/March.

[boze]

While I can appreciate the views freeheal espouses, having the Mad bus option is pretty great. There's plenty of SB terrain where one can truly 'earn your turns' for those who want to hike a bit. But for the return to base, having a readily accessible means such as the Mad bus is most welcome. And since the Mad bus has been used in this way for some time now, I do not think it has significantly influenced any increase in folks skiing SB over the years...at least in recent memory. But maybe the bears have a different view. :wink:

[noski]

think about working with the Mad Bus folks on increasing capacity/frequency from the trail head on weekends and holidays in Feb/March. For what it's worth, the MadBus runs a dedicated Mt Ellen/LP bus, so it leaves LP at :00 and :30 of every hour to head to ME beginning at 8am, and then leaves ME at :15 and :45 of every hour with the last ME departure at 5:45pm.

[Hawk]

I just wish they would get rid of the bus stop @ the Slidebrook trailhead!

It's not really an official bus stop, if people are there they will stop, the Mad Bus will pick people up anywhere along their route as long as it is safe. They are nice that way. :D

If that is the case, I kinda wish they were not so nice. Why can't they have designated stops? People would have to walk a bit to use the slackCountry.

Kind of a selfish view, IMHO, seeing as how the vast majority of people who venture back there have fixed heels. It's not like the place is ever skied out.

Yes it might be selfish but I have to agree with Freeheel. The bus makes it way too easy and just increases the amount of Joeys. I can't tell you how may people I came across last year that were in way over their heads. Also, you don't have to have a free heel to get out of there...Just a free ride. :wink: Oh well, it is what it is.
:)

[Tin Woodsman]

Yes it might be selfish but I have to agree with Freeheel. The bus makes it way too easy and just increases the amount of Joeys. I can't tell you how may people I came across last year that were in way over their heads. Also, you don't have to have a free heel to get out of there...Just a free ride. :wink: Oh well, it is what it is.
:)
Then those people should be educated. If you want a wilderness experience requiring a ride or long walk back, ski down to Jerusalem. Those clueless people almost by definition won't bother you b/c they most certainly are sticking the the blazed runs.

[Hawk]

Yes it might be selfish but I have to agree with Freeheel. The bus makes it way too easy and just increases the amount of Joeys. I can't tell you how may people I came across last year that were in way over their heads. Also, you don't have to have a free heel to get out of there...Just a free ride. :wink: Oh well, it is what it is.
:)
Then those people should be educated. If you want a wilderness experience requiring a ride or long walk back, ski down to Jerusalem. Those clueless people almost by definition won't bother you b/c they most certainly are sticking the the blazed runs.

Tin, I get more than my share of backcountry solitude. And without ratcheting this up any higher I'll just say that I'm not the only one voicing this opinion. :)

[Tin Woodsman]

That's cool - everyone has the right to their own opinion. While crowding in the woods is becomingmore of an issue in-bounds, I would think that Slide Brook is, and will remain, one of the few places where those in the know can always find fresh snow w/o too much of an effort.

[sugarboarder]

Heck, I can still find it in-bounds...and no bus ride! And if you DO go over the Jerusalem side there is a nice old couple at the end of the forest road that will give you coffee and cookies and a ride down to the store to stick out your thumb. 8)

[freeheel_skier]

I just wish they would get rid of the bus stop @ the Slidebrook trailhead!

It's not really an official bus stop, if people are there they will stop, the Mad Bus will pick people up anywhere along their route as long as it is safe. They are nice that way. :D

If that is the case, I kinda wish they were not so nice. Why can't they have designated stops? People would have to walk a bit to use the slackCountry.

Kind of a selfish view, IMHO, seeing as how the vast majority of people who venture back there have fixed heels. It's not like the place is ever skied out.

TW,
Fixed heel, freeheel or tennis shoes.......it doesn't mater. Selfish....no. Skied out...no. Just being realistic. Why have a "bus stop" there. Why not just put a HSQ instead? Oh there is only a permitted amount of "guided" people allowed in the basin. Please! Just move the "unofficial" bus stop. Problem solved. Now property tax in Fayston different story! :roll:

[Lostone]

Please! Just move the "unofficial" bus stop. Problem solved.

I'd bet it is not a problem for more than it is. What makes you think "they" shouldn't be allowed there? Were "they" not, would you stay out, too? :?


Selfish....no. :?: :roll:

[Tin Woodsman]

TW,
Fixed heel, freeheel or tennis shoes.......it doesn't mater. Selfish....no. Skied out...no. Just being realistic. Why have a "bus stop" there. Why not just put a HSQ instead? Oh there is only a permitted amount of "guided" people allowed in the basin. Please! Just move the "unofficial" bus stop. Problem solved. Now property tax in Fayston different story! :roll:
What are you being realistic about? Your example of a HSQ is a complete red herring. For access from LP, access is limited by the capacity of the NL triple, the least busy lift on the mountain. The subset of skiers who use NL to access SB is far smaller. Think about it. Even on the busiest days in Feb/March, you get maybe 20-30 people collecting within 30 minutes. To put that in perspective, the high end of that rate would represent 1/6 the capacity of the Castlerock lift.

but that's just semantics. the fact of the matter is that the time commitment for a cycle, the long, sometimes treacherous traverse out and the relative inconvenience of getting back relative to lifts will always limit the number of people back there. I would be surprised if more than 50% of the people who went there once came back for a second try.

It's not busy where you're skiing, and that's all that should really matter.

[freeheel_skier]

Please! Just move the "unofficial" bus stop. Problem solved.

I'd bet it is not a problem for more than it is. What makes you think "they" shouldn't be allowed there? Were "they" not, would you stay out, too? :?


Selfish....no. :?: :roll:

Has nothing to do with being selfish. I feel everyone should enjoy the basin. :D Maybe I implied that skiers should stay out of slidebrook when I brought up the permit/tour thing :? ? The point I am trying to make is that the resort says no you shouldn't unless you take one of our guided tours. However there is a bus stop at the bottom. So what do you think everyone is gonna do? Take a tour once and then ski it for free and take the free shuttle back to LP or ME. I don't have a majior problem with this. But it does get congested on the weekends down there. I witnessed an arguments between who should take the bus back or not......i.e. a tour group finishes up and there are several(more like a dozen) people already waiting for the bus. Now this was a couple of seasons ago(I am slowly loosing my mind :? ). There wasn't enough room on the shuttle/ bus for everone in the group. I believe on of the guides said the group has priority(they should they paid for the tour). Well an argument ensued....first come first serve....whatever. This is what I think about when I see dozens of people @ the parking area for SB. BTW I was waiting for my wife to pick me up :oops: :P

So no I won't stay out. Just don't go in as much anymore & won't go in on weekends. :wink:

[freeheel_skier]

TW,
Fixed heel, freeheel or tennis shoes.......it doesn't mater. Selfish....no. Skied out...no. Just being realistic. Why have a "bus stop" there. Why not just put a HSQ instead? Oh there is only a permitted amount of "guided" people allowed in the basin. Please! Just move the "unofficial" bus stop. Problem solved. Now property tax in Fayston different story! :roll:
What are you being realistic about? Your example of a HSQ is a complete red herring. For access from LP, access is limited by the capacity of the NL triple, the least busy lift on the mountain. The subset of skiers who use NL to access SB is far smaller. Think about it. Even on the busiest days in Feb/March, you get maybe 20-30 people collecting within 30 minutes. To put that in perspective, the high end of that rate would represent 1/6 the capacity of the Castlerock lift.

but that's just semantics. the fact of the matter is that the time commitment for a cycle, the long, sometimes treacherous traverse out and the relative inconvenience of getting back relative to lifts will always limit the number of people back there. I would be surprised if more than 50% of the people who went there once came back for a second try.

It's not busy where you're skiing, and that's all that should really matter.

I agree about the HSQ....It was a sarcastic joke :lol:

There are way more than 20-30 people using SB on busy weekends.

I think you are dead wrong about 50% of the people who go in once never come back for a second try. :roll: I wouldn't even venture to guess what that stat is.... :?:

And forget about parking @ trailhead and snowshoing on weekends.....

So to get back to my point...what was it :?: :?

If there is only a certain amount of "guided" people allowed to ski in the basin.....why have the bus stop there?

The bus is nice and convienent.....I have used it. I am just asking the question?

I do like the responses though 8)

[BushMogulMaster]

If there is only a certain amount of "guided" people allowed to ski in the basin.....why have the bus stop there?



As someone said earlier, it's not a "bus stop." The Mad Bus will pick anyone up anywhere along German Flats, assuming it's safe. If there are people at the SB area, the bus will pick them up. It's not exactly fair (for lack of a better word) for the bus to stop and pick people up all along German Flats, but just selectively ignore the folks in the SB area.

[freeheel_skier]

If there is only a certain amount of "guided" people allowed to ski in the basin.....why have the bus stop there?



As someone said earlier, it's not a "bus stop." The Mad Bus will pick anyone up anywhere along German Flats, assuming it's safe. If there are people at the SB area, the bus will pick them up. It's not exactly fair (for lack of a better word) for the bus to stop and pick people up all along German Flats, but just selectively ignore the folks in the SB area.

Valid point. I agree. So what do you call it? A trail head with a ski rack so you can wait to be picked up? :lol:

[boze]

If there is only a certain amount of "guided" people allowed to ski in the basin.....why have the bus stop there?



As someone said earlier, it's not a "bus stop." The Mad Bus will pick anyone up anywhere along German Flats, assuming it's safe. If there are people at the SB area, the bus will pick them up. It's not exactly fair (for lack of a better word) for the bus to stop and pick people up all along German Flats, but just selectively ignore the folks in the SB area.

Valid point. I agree. So what do you call it? A trail head with a ski rack so you can wait to be picked up? :lol:


I'd call it: 'a rather unique combination of backcountry access and transportation that makes Sugarbush pretty darn special'

Ok that's kind of wordy....

In any event I very much look forward to sharing that 'side' of Sugarbush with my son this season, as he's honed his tree skiing skills in the woods of Paradise, Exterminator, Eden, Lower FIS, Semi-tough, Wayback / Walt's and some other gems.

[thinksnow]

Yeah that's right....the Blue Tooth is gone along with many other places...that sucks.

Yes, that really does suck.

[MntMan4Bush]

I actually have a question about the bus and comments on who gets priority. Is the bus service paid by Sugarbush? I've always wondered that. I mean it has a fixed route between the two mountains, but is it run by Sugarbush? If it is then I can completely understand why a guided tour would get priority. Namely the price they pay for the tour goes into the operation of the bus itself and while all of our purchased tickets also do so, they hold a higher proportion of the funds that have allowed the bus to be available (unless you count us season pass holders who may pay more then the 1 -2 weekend person who did the tour, but that's examining it too much)

However if the bus is run by the valley I don't understand why a guided tour would get priority and think it should be first come first serve. I have run into that situation once at the base and the group of people there was actually with Win so my friends and I bowed out. I mean how could we take a seat over the man himself. If the bus is not owned by the Bush the tour group should have no special rights over the rest of us that all contribute to the valley and in turn makes the bus available. Then you could argue that people who have winter homes up here or permanently live in the MRV should get priority because we contribute more tax dollars. It gets silly. If the bus is not owned by the Bush then it should be first come first serve. The only exception I would lend to that is if there are any old ladies or pregnant women waiting after a run down the basin. Haven't seen many of those, but if I do I'll be the first to give up my slot on the bus. God bless 'em.

[BushMogulMaster]

I do not know this for a fact, but I recall someone saying that Sugarbush helps to fund it on some level. I'm sure noski or Win can give you a better official answer.

[007]

I actually have a question about the bus and comments on who gets priority. Is the bus service paid by Sugarbush? I've always wondered that. I mean it has a fixed route between the two mountains, but is it run by Sugarbush? If it is then I can completely understand why a guided tour would get priority. Namely the price they pay for the tour goes into the operation of the bus itself and while all of our purchased tickets also do so, they hold a higher proportion of the funds that have allowed the bus to be available (unless you count us season pass holders who may pay more then the 1 -2 weekend person who did the tour, but that's examining it too much)

However if the bus is run by the valley I don't understand why a guided tour would get priority and think it should be first come first serve. I have run into that situation once at the base and the group of people there was actually with Win so my friends and I bowed out. I mean how could we take a seat over the man himself. If the bus is not owned by the Bush the tour group should have no special rights over the rest of us that all contribute to the valley and in turn makes the bus available. Then you could argue that people who have winter homes up here or permanently live in the MRV should get priority because we contribute more tax dollars. It gets silly. If the bus is not owned by the Bush then it should be first come first serve. The only exception I would lend to that is if there are any old ladies or pregnant women waiting after a run down the basin. Haven't seen many of those, but if I do I'll be the first to give up my slot on the bus. God bless 'em.

Idea no. 1: Sugarbush runs their own 10 passenger van to pick up the outback guides and tour groups. Van advertises "Outback Guided Tours" on it, and runs four times a day for the tour group only. Tour group never waits on G-Flats road, and they can drink hot cider on the way back with the guides. A nice added bonus to the guided tour!

Then when the Mad Bus is overloaded it'll be the normal courtesy of allowing the woman, children, and crying babies to go first.

[ski_resort_observer]

The Bush pays for approx 75% of the cost of the Mad Bus. The towns pick up the rest cause it's not only a resort shuttle it's a valley shuttle as well. You don't have to be skiing/riding to have the bus pick you up as it will do so whether it's German Flats Rd, Rt 17 or Rt 100. It's a bus service not unlike a school bus. As for official stops like on Rt 100 in front of Yestermorrow, for example, they stop and turn on the lights. Just like a school bus.

As 007 mentioned the Bush's Guided Tours include a ride back so I have never heard of them using the Mad Bus at the trailhead at German Flats. For the Mad Bus it's supposed to be first come first serve although allowing kids and parents to get on first is a nice gesture of civility, something lacking IMHO, in our culture these days.

[Lostone]

As 007 mentioned the Bush's Guided Tours include a ride back so I have never heard of them using the Mad Bus at the trailhead at German Flats.

That was his suggestion. The way back is the Mad Bus.

[ski_resort_observer]

As 007 mentioned the Bush's Guided Tours include a ride back so I have never heard of them using the Mad Bus at the trailhead at German Flats.

That was his suggestion. The way back is the Mad Bus.

That makes sense plus I can think of at least two occasions where some wine was popped open on the MB between ME and LP and if glasses were passed around, I didn't get one.... :wink:

[noski]

Well, technically, The bus is not funded by the towns at all. Most of the funding is from the State/Fed transportation funds. The local match, about 25% in our case, is funded mostly by Sugarbush- at about 86%. The rest of local match is primarily 4 lodging properties who are on the Access Rd and get exceptional bus opportunities due to their location.

The chamber currently owns the rolling stock, though I am guessing here that as we replace the stock over the next few years they will be owned by the service provider, CCTA out of Burlington. During Peak Weeks/Weekends, there is a "floater" bus in the afternoon and if one has a cell and service you can try calling 496-RIDE and MadBus dispatch will answer. See if the bus is available for a German Flats Rd run back to LP.

Remember, the bus leaves ME for LP at :15 & :45, so you can gauge roughly when it will hit SlideBrook.

[ski_resort_observer]

Well, technically, The bus is not funded by the towns at all. Most of the funding is from the State/Fed transportation funds. The local match, about 25% in our case, is funded mostly by Sugarbush- at about 86%. The rest of local match is primarily 4 lodging properties who are on the Access Rd and get exceptional bus opportunities due to their location.

The chamber currently owns the rolling stock, though I am guessing here that as we replace the stock over the next few years they will be owned by the service provider, CCTA out of Burlington. During Peak Weeks/Weekends, there is a "floater" bus in the afternoon and if one has a cell and service you can try calling 496-RIDE and MadBus dispatch will answer. See if the bus is available for a German Flats Rd run back to LP.

Remember, the bus leaves ME for LP at :15 & :45, so you can gauge roughly when it will hit SlideBrook.

At the Warren SB meeting a couple of weeks ago the CCTA rep was there basically asking the town to contribute to the cost. As you might expect one of the first questions from the small crowd was " how much does Sugarbush contribute" and the CCTA rep said 75%. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D

[007]

The access road itself remains much as it has since my family first made the trek up to the 'Bush. Sure, the restaurants have changed hands several times.

Jay, I have to disagree. Bass / Country Flair is gone. Migel's/Rositas is gone. The Bluetooth is gone. The Warren House is gone. That leaves the pub at the Sugarbush Inn as the only access road establishament. Obviously I am not counting the base area or German Flats for this observation. My point is that some bars/resturaunts on the access road are a good thing as new people come to the mountain. When trying to get new people converted to drinking our kool-aid, it makes a difference. This topic is the only complaint that I have faced when trying to convert my friends. I also realize that some people have the opinion that "We are a skier's mountain. If you want night life go to Killington". All I am saying is that it is nice to have a few more options and some variety. :)

Hawk, and others, what would you say if something like Stowe's - Matterhorn Rest were on the Sugarbush Access Road. Too much? Too little? Or just right???

For those who haven't been there it has pizza, burgers, sushi, pro grade pool tables, video games, bands, and professional wait staff, in a well kept clean environment.
Bar dining experience is decent for singles and couples, and server to patron ratios are about 1:8.
http://www.matterhornbar.com/

It grabs the attention and satisfies the needs of the respectable 25-50 y/o crowds nicely, and seems to service them well.

Wish a group of F&B business owners would step up to the plate within the next 3 years.
With the quality and conservative pace of the resort expansion it’s surprising that no one has yet, although rumor has it that an overzealous traffic controller could be dissuading potential interest.
Guessing it might take a privately funded security company and traffic enforcement for the MRV in order to amp up the "interest meter"........BTW "privately funded" could be a coop of chamber members who share the cost proportionately.....

Probably been kicked and beaten around a thousand times since the other establishments have moved out, although maybe not a dead horse yet!

[007]

Not being a F&B expert, not to belabor this issue that has definitely been kicked around very passionately at least 1,000 times, and offering the following only as suggestion and not a tortuous plot.....

If the 15 - 3 foot x 3 foot low tables in C-Rock Pub were replaced with 15 - 2 foot x 2 foot high top cafe tables it would open up about 75 square feet of floor space to mingle, dance, and meander around on, with no obvious sacrifice or heartache caused by the elimination of “dinner” size low table tops which imho are unnecessary for a pub environment.

Using high back counter height stools would also allow plenty of ski parka stowage in addition to the wall hooks.........
The height of the seated patrons would also be at about the same eye level as standing patrons allowing for more casual mingling.

All this wouldn't allow an increase to the permitted occupancy for the area, although it would allow some freedom to move about the cabin.

And maybe another 500 dollar computer station for each of the bartenders so they don’t need to share one machine, or fumble with pass codes at the time of each and every beer sale.

Another suggestion would be to station one person at the beer taps on Sat and Sun from 3-6 during high season to take some pressure off of the bartenders.
Definitely would keep the regular/passholders from grumbling about having to leave with their $ in hand......

Again, probably no increase in throughput, but a much more enjoyable customer experience for regs and newbees as well.
Maybe a minor point, but F&B manager might welcome the notion if they read this.

Anyone have any other proposition for one of our fav après spots? :idea:

Looking forward to the temporary re-opening of Wunderbar this season for another après spot, which was a great idea!
And music at Timbers, brilliant!
Thanks for these two improvements!

OK, long winded but now it’s all out in one breath................

[Tin Woodsman]

Anyone have any other proposition for one of our fav après spots? :idea:

Looking forward to the temporary re-opening of Wunderbar this season for another après spot, which was a great idea!
And music at Timbers, brilliant!
Thanks for these two improvements!

OK, long winded but now it’s all out in one breath................

Great, observation-based ideas. That's the type of stuff an outsider wouldn't necessarily get (especially the cash register and beer tap ideas) if they hadn't spent some time in the the Pub during the busy season. As for me, I'd like to see tem blow out the South wall of the CR Pub and annex the patio there with a temporary enclosure for the 75% of winter days when no one would want to be out there. The grill in the Spring there is fantastic, but it seems like a bit of a waste fo space to keep it cold and empty from opening day until March. I have to imagine that a happy medium can be found that enables you to take advantage of that space when needed for the pub while transitioning back to a grill area when the weather allows. Maybe they should adjust the grill 90 degrees such that the cook's back faces South. Put a rope up from the midpoint of the grill towards the North with everything to the East (Timbers side) public seating for all ages who want a burger outside and a small area to the West (mountain side) continuing to serve as an extension of the CR Pub. I guess the addition of a new bar in the forthcoming guest services bldg is supposed to obviate the need for an expansion of CR, but my guess is that CR will always be the destination fo choice for the majority of folks looking for a frosty adult apres beverage.

[thinksnow]

If the 15 - 3 foot x 3 foot low tables in C-Rock Pub were replaced with 15 - 2 foot x 2 foot high top cafe tables it would open up about 75 square feet of floor space to mingle, dance, and meander around on, with no obvious sacrifice or heartache caused by the elimination of “dinner” size low table tops which imho are unnecessary for a pub environment.
Using high back counter height stools would also allow plenty of ski parka stowage in addition to the wall hooks.........
The height of the seated patrons would also be at about the same eye level as standing patrons allowing for more casual mingling.
All this wouldn't allow an increase to the permitted occupancy for the area, although it would allow some freedom to move about the cabin.

You know, changing out those low tables for higher pub tables could clear up some space, or at least make the room feel more cohesive...

[thinksnow]

Anyone have any other proposition for one of our fav après spots? :idea:

Looking forward to the temporary re-opening of Wunderbar this season for another après spot, which was a great idea!
And music at Timbers, brilliant!
Thanks for these two improvements!

OK, long winded but now it’s all out in one breath................

.....observation-based ideas....That's the type of stuff an outsider wouldn't necessarily get.......see tem blow out the South wall of the CR Pub and annex the patio there with a temporary enclosure........seems like a bit of a waste fo space.........take advantage of that space.........adjust the grill 90 degrees such that the cook's back faces South. Put a rope up from the midpoint of the grill towards the North with everything to the East......outside and a small area to the West...........but my guess is.....

Enough with the observation based ideas, lets grab a compass, blow out some wallS, and put up a rope

[007]

Enough with the observation based ideas, lets grab a compass, blow out some wallS, and put up a rope


Guessing permits and $ might be a small road block for the demo hammer and the envisioned C-Rock Pub expansion......
We'll probably see more pub environs and lounge locations in the grand plan for base expansion over the next 5 years though.
Sometimes several small gathering places are better managed than one all inclusive space and they can be opened and closed sequentially with seasonal demand.

For now, at Castlerock Pub, much much smaller and higher cafe tables, high back bar stools, and the St Pauli Girl at the beer tap would be a negligible cost for a HUGE improvement!!!

A virtual live band might be another space saving idea as well.
Five large plasma screens piping in live video feed of band members playing from a Burlington Recording Loft.
Live video feed from the C-Rock back to them for feedback.
Could be a way to capture a good band who doesn't want to travel to the MRV for a few hours on a Saturday.
Hmmmmmm...

[thinksnow]

Enough with the observation based ideas, lets grab a compass, blow out some wallS, and put up a rope


the envisioned C-Rock Pub expansion......

What expansion?

[ski_resort_observer]

Enough with the observation based ideas, lets grab a compass, blow out some wallS, and put up a rope


the envisioned C-Rock Pub expansion......

What expansion?

The expansion of whining about CP...coming soon as a mini-series on cable. This dead horse has more sequels than Rocky. :lol:

[Tin Woodsman]

The expansion of whining about CP...coming soon as a mini-series on cable. This dead horse has more sequels than Rocky. :lol:
You keep calling this whining, but I'm having a hard time understanding your position on this. The CR Pub was objectively, unquestionably, overcrowded last year on weekends. There was no room to put your things down, no ability to carry on a conversation, and difficult at best to get a drink. I'm not sure how you could even argue this, unless you're trying to discredit any criticism of SB whether warranted or not.

[HowieT2]

The expansion of whining about CP...coming soon as a mini-series on cable. This dead horse has more sequels than Rocky. :lol:
You keep calling this whining, but I'm having a hard time understanding your position on this. The CR Pub was objectively, unquestionably, overcrowded last year on weekends. There was no room to put your things down, no ability to carry on a conversation, and difficult at best to get a drink. I'm not sure how you could even argue this, unless you're trying to discredit any criticism of SB whether warranted or not.

I have to agree with Tin. While an expansion may be best left until after the GS lodge is operational, there is no reason in the interim, not to use the patio area in some way shape or form. There are heaters there already and putting some form of a tent seems to me a no-brainer.

[freeheel_skier]

The expansion of whining about CP...coming soon as a mini-series on cable. This dead horse has more sequels than Rocky. :lol:
You keep calling this whining, but I'm having a hard time understanding your position on this. The CR Pub was objectively, unquestionably, overcrowded last year on weekends. There was no room to put your things down, no ability to carry on a conversation, and difficult at best to get a drink. I'm not sure how you could even argue this, unless you're trying to discredit any criticism of SB whether warranted or not.

I have to agree with Tin. While an expansion may be best left until after the GS lodge is operational, there is no reason in the interim, not to use the patio area in some way shape or form. There are heaters there already and putting some form of a tent seems to me a no-brainer.

Propane heaters + tent = bad idea :shock:

Unless it has open sides :wink:

[boze]

I agree on CR pub issues. Tent great idea, and couple options to heat other than radiant propane units.

At friend's bday party this weekend, with temps in high teens / low 20s he had a 40x40 tent (with sides) attached to his house. Two, possibly 3, heat pump / blower units kept is sufficiently toasty warm for the women to be comfortable dancing in their halter tops.

[007]

Wow, that spun out a little.

Original idea for version 2.0 was:
smaller and taller cafe tables, high back bar stools, and the St Pauli Girl at the beer tap.

Easy, cheap, and quick solution to re-set the mood of the place and the patrons in it.......Hopefully someone in Food & Bev will agree to try this out.

Now how about the new Valley House Traverse snowmaking, and the nice new clean woods lines that we have this season!!!

[MntMan4Bush]

I agree on CR pub issues. Tent great idea, and couple options to heat other than radiant propane units.

At friend's bday party this weekend, with temps in high teens / low 20s he had a 40x40 tent (with sides) attached to his house. Two, possibly 3, heat pump / blower units kept is sufficiently toasty warm for the women to be comfortable dancing in their halter tops.

Comfortable or not I second the motion to add girls dancing in halter tops. That's a great idea. When can we get this implemented?

I made this suggestion last year (patio structure) and it didn't get much steam, but I still like it. I think a tent would be quick and easy, but possibly an eye sore. They have more semi-permanent structures that are made of plexi-glass (or some such material) that can be put up so everyone can enjoy the outdoor view while staying warm. When mother nature takes over in the Spring to provide the heat it can be disassembled and stored. A quick easy solution to provide more room and still have it look pretty decent. I'm sure that I've over simplified the purchasing and set up of this structure, but it warrants looking into.

[HowieT2]

I agree on CR pub issues. Tent great idea, and couple options to heat other than radiant propane units.

At friend's bday party this weekend, with temps in high teens / low 20s he had a 40x40 tent (with sides) attached to his house. Two, possibly 3, heat pump / blower units kept is sufficiently toasty warm for the women to be comfortable dancing in their halter tops.

Comfortable or not I second the motion to add girls dancing in halter tops. That's a great idea. When can we get this implemented?

I made this suggestion last year (patio structure) and it didn't get much steam, but I still like it. I think a tent would be quick and easy, but possibly an eye sore. They have more semi-permanent structures that are made of plexi-glass (or some such material) that can be put up so everyone can enjoy the outdoor view while staying warm. When mother nature takes over in the Spring to provide the heat it can be disassembled and stored. A quick easy solution to provide more room and still have it look pretty decent. I'm sure that I've over simplified the purchasing and set up of this structure, but it warrants looking into.

LOL.

[ski_resort_observer]

The expansion of whining about CP...coming soon as a mini-series on cable. This dead horse has more sequels than Rocky. :lol:
You keep calling this whining, but I'm having a hard time understanding your position on this.

Tin...just poking some fun at ya...notice the :lol: As I have mentioned before I don't have a position on this. I work 50 feet away but have never been in CP after skiing and to be honest everyone I know loves the place, as is. I only mention it as a dead horse since this has been discussed in 16 previous threads, so far. :wink:

[007]

Sooo. Can anybody expound upon the new Valley House Traverse snowmaking???
Heard from patrol that there were some "whales" blown in up there for good measure, and that they are fun to ride.

Sure somebody we'll dig up a rerun of the Castle-Rock-y Horror Picture Show Pub again in a couple months.... :)

[Tin Woodsman]

Sooo. Can anybody expound upon the new Valley House Traverse snowmaking???
Heard from patrol that there were some "whales" blown in up there for good measure, and that they are fun to ride.


Was VH Traverse one of the areas where upgrades went in this summer? Can't wait to shred that gnar! :lol:

[WWF-VT]

Sooo. Can anybody expound upon the new Valley House Traverse snowmaking???
Heard from patrol that there were some "whales" blown in up there for good measure, and that they are fun to ride.



Rode the "whales" on VH Traverse, Snowball and Spring fling on Sunday. VH Traverse were very firm - my kids liked them more than me. I assume they are soon to be groomed.

[Lostone]

The whales are groomed. Valley house traverse it once again... a traverse.

Sorry Tin... You'll have to find something else for your shredding pleasure. :lol: