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jkvt
10-10-2007, 11:18 AM
This turned into a giant hijack! :shock:

Split the operating system comments from the Website thread

Please continue comments on the Sugarbush website, here, (http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=1069) in the Sugarbush section.

Please continue comments on operating systems here.

Hopefully, I made the split fairly well, but it drifted, as opposed to switched. :?


Thanx for your support.







For some fun reading on the issues...

That is FUN???? :shock:

You won't believe how good my life has suddenly appeared, in perspective. :lol:

I'm also using Firefox. I'm really happy IE has finally caught on to tabbed browsers. Only took them around 7 years?

I'm probably unable to upgrade to the latest IE, anyway. I'm running Win98SE. I can't upgrade to the latest browsers as they require me to throw away this perfectly operating (OK... for a Windows machine) computer and buy another.

It ain't happening! So I'll have to struggle with Firefox... which helped teach Billy that he needed tabbed browsers... years ago. :wink:

And for the record, I also see the web page as very distorted with a long blank panel on the left. I don't think it was like that, yesterday.


hehehe, well my wife does always say I am not quite right...she also informs me that reading tech manuals is not the same as 'real' reading.

She is also limping along with an old Dell laptop running Win98 which I just battled with to add a wireless card. Works great but one thing you see right off is that the native resolution is not conducive to reading a lot of newer sites. Something designed to work best at 1024x768 makes you scroll like crazy (but it does work).


jkvt

Lostone
10-10-2007, 11:46 AM
If she is using the laptop as a traveling tool, she's kinda stuck. But if she is using it in a specific location, you might consider an external monitor.

Before moving up here, I was bringing up my notebook, but I left an LCD monitor, an external keyboard and a mouse, up here. (Kinda like a docking station?) It was so much easier to just use the notebook as a traveling harddrive and CPU, but have the functionality of a desktop. And ability to see the monitor was quite important.

jkvt
10-10-2007, 01:40 PM
If she is using the laptop as a traveling tool, she's kinda stuck. But if she is using it in a specific location, you might consider an external monitor.

Before moving up here, I was bringing up my notebook, but I left an LCD monitor, an external keyboard and a mouse, up here. (Kinda like a docking station?) It was so much easier to just use the notebook as a traveling harddrive and CPU, but have the functionality of a desktop. And ability to see the monitor was quite important.

She uses it mostly for writing and some research, when she wants to really surf she gets on my G5 with the 21in. CRT. Ahhhh I love the real estate it has.

jkvt

skibum1321
10-11-2007, 06:29 AM
Does anyone else notice a big gap between the top navigation and the content.

I reported that issue myself. I learned that if you upgrade your browser to IE 7 (I had IE 6) it is no longer an issue.... Neither should it be an issue in Mozilla or Firefox.... I like the new IE 7 with the tabbed windows.
It was an issue in Firefox since that was the browser that I'm using. I hate IE 6 (and 7 for that matter)...

skibum1321
10-11-2007, 06:34 AM
My advice, if the criticism is to be constructive, is to let them know which browser and OS you are using and the problems you find. Every browser handles code differently and IE is the biggest culprit of this as the browser is very integrated into many back end products.
jkvt
Definitely disagree with you there - this may have been an acceptable approach at the turn of the century, but it is definitely not these days. That is a very amateur approach to dealing with the issues. The best way is to build the site with graceful degradation - the latest browsers get the best experience, but it still works in the older browsers. I'm not saying they need to support IE 5, but at least IE 6 (there are ways to get around almost every CSS issue in IE 6).

Ok, now that we all know that I'm a huge web development dork, back to our regular discussions...

jkvt
10-11-2007, 09:06 AM
My advice, if the criticism is to be constructive, is to let them know which browser and OS you are using and the problems you find. Every browser handles code differently and IE is the biggest culprit of this as the browser is very integrated into many back end products.
jkvt
Definitely disagree with you there - this may have been an acceptable approach at the turn of the century, but it is definitely not these days. That is a very amateur approach to dealing with the issues. The best way is to build the site with graceful degradation - the latest browsers get the best experience, but it still works in the older browsers. I'm not saying they need to support IE 5, but at least IE 6 (there are ways to get around almost every CSS issue in IE 6).

Ok, now that we all know that I'm a huge web development dork, back to our regular discussions...

I agree that you should develop and test first- and even if you do not have a variety of browsers to test on there are sites out there which will do it for you. But, knowing if someone is having trouble on Win95 and Netscape 2 is different than someone using Vista and IE7. My comment about constructive criticism was more an attempt to not go down the road of "this sucks" name calling but to help them to get it better. I guess I have seen so many threads (on other lists) get negative and name-cally.

jkvt

kcyanks1
10-11-2007, 10:45 AM
My advice, if the criticism is to be constructive, is to let them know which browser and OS you are using and the problems you find. Every browser handles code differently and IE is the biggest culprit of this as the browser is very integrated into many back end products.
jkvt
Definitely disagree with you there - this may have been an acceptable approach at the turn of the century, but it is definitely not these days. That is a very amateur approach to dealing with the issues. The best way is to build the site with graceful degradation - the latest browsers get the best experience, but it still works in the older browsers. I'm not saying they need to support IE 5, but at least IE 6 (there are ways to get around almost every CSS issue in IE 6).

Ok, now that we all know that I'm a huge web development dork, back to our regular discussions...

How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

BushMogulMaster
10-11-2007, 11:26 AM
My advice, if the criticism is to be constructive, is to let them know which browser and OS you are using and the problems you find. Every browser handles code differently and IE is the biggest culprit of this as the browser is very integrated into many back end products.
jkvt
Definitely disagree with you there - this may have been an acceptable approach at the turn of the century, but it is definitely not these days. That is a very amateur approach to dealing with the issues. The best way is to build the site with graceful degradation - the latest browsers get the best experience, but it still works in the older browsers. I'm not saying they need to support IE 5, but at least IE 6 (there are ways to get around almost every CSS issue in IE 6).

Ok, now that we all know that I'm a huge web development dork, back to our regular discussions...

How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

Amen and Glory Be!

I think that's all I have to say on the issue.

skibum1321
10-11-2007, 11:49 AM
My advice, if the criticism is to be constructive, is to let them know which browser and OS you are using and the problems you find. Every browser handles code differently and IE is the biggest culprit of this as the browser is very integrated into many back end products.
jkvt
Definitely disagree with you there - this may have been an acceptable approach at the turn of the century, but it is definitely not these days. That is a very amateur approach to dealing with the issues. The best way is to build the site with graceful degradation - the latest browsers get the best experience, but it still works in the older browsers. I'm not saying they need to support IE 5, but at least IE 6 (there are ways to get around almost every CSS issue in IE 6).

Ok, now that we all know that I'm a huge web development dork, back to our regular discussions...

How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

I wish :wink: ... Most of the sites that I frequent (tech sites) have a majority of users on Firefox, Safari and Opera, but this certainly isn't the case for most mainstream sites, especially the Bush.

BushMogulMaster
10-11-2007, 01:23 PM
My advice, if the criticism is to be constructive, is to let them know which browser and OS you are using and the problems you find. Every browser handles code differently and IE is the biggest culprit of this as the browser is very integrated into many back end products.
jkvt
Definitely disagree with you there - this may have been an acceptable approach at the turn of the century, but it is definitely not these days. That is a very amateur approach to dealing with the issues. The best way is to build the site with graceful degradation - the latest browsers get the best experience, but it still works in the older browsers. I'm not saying they need to support IE 5, but at least IE 6 (there are ways to get around almost every CSS issue in IE 6).

Ok, now that we all know that I'm a huge web development dork, back to our regular discussions...

How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

I wish :wink: ... Most of the sites that I frequent (tech sites) have a majority of users on Firefox, Safari and Opera, but this certainly isn't the case for most mainstream sites, especially the Bush.

I'd really like to see the web stats. It would be interesting to see the browser breakdown.

kcyanks1
10-11-2007, 01:45 PM
How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

Amen and Glory Be!

I think that's all I have to say on the issue.

Oh, come on, we can say more .. How about ignoring Microsoft completely? :-) (I'm a Linux-user at home, unfortunately not one at work.)

BushMogulMaster
10-11-2007, 02:19 PM
How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

Amen and Glory Be!

I think that's all I have to say on the issue.

Oh, come on, we can say more .. How about ignoring Microsoft completely? :-) (I'm a Linux-user at home, unfortunately not one at work.)

I dual boot, for compatibility reasons. If everything worked in Linux, I'd drop MS entirely. But I spent an entire day in a console editing code and trying to get my wireless card to work. I swear to you, it's impossible. So I keep Windows on here for wireless purposes.

kcyanks1
10-11-2007, 07:33 PM
How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

Amen and Glory Be!

I think that's all I have to say on the issue.

Oh, come on, we can say more .. How about ignoring Microsoft completely? :-) (I'm a Linux-user at home, unfortunately not one at work.)

I dual boot, for compatibility reasons. If everything worked in Linux, I'd drop MS entirely. But I spent an entire day in a console editing code and trying to get my wireless card to work. I swear to you, it's impossible. So I keep Windows on here for wireless purposes.

On my previous laptop I never got my wireless card working. I got a new laptop in August '06 with built-in wireless and it worked right away.

skibum1321
10-12-2007, 06:57 AM
How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

Amen and Glory Be!

I think that's all I have to say on the issue.

Oh, come on, we can say more .. How about ignoring Microsoft completely? :-) (I'm a Linux-user at home, unfortunately not one at work.)
If only it were possible to ignore them completely. They have such a stranglehold on the tech world that it will never happen.
Just an example of Microsoft technology that I use regularly:
Windows (at work and home)
Internet Explorer (to test my websites after developing in Firefox)
.NET framework
Visual Studio
Visio
Office

I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting too... I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but I have to admit that there are certain things that I like. Visual Studio is pretty nice and I really like C# as a language. Then I see their browsers and OSs and it makes me want to gag.

Bubba
10-12-2007, 07:53 AM
If only it were possible to ignore them completely. They have such a stranglehold on the tech world that it will never happen.





You wanna talk strangleholds?
How about wcvt?
When are we going to outlaw monopolies in the Valley?
I think a little competition would do us a world of good.
We have more than one ski area. More than one restaurant(for now). More than one hardware store. More than one grocery store.

????

kcyanks1
10-12-2007, 08:02 AM
How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

Amen and Glory Be!

I think that's all I have to say on the issue.

Oh, come on, we can say more .. How about ignoring Microsoft completely? :-) (I'm a Linux-user at home, unfortunately not one at work.)
If only it were possible to ignore them completely. They have such a stranglehold on the tech world that it will never happen.
Just an example of Microsoft technology that I use regularly:
Windows (at work and home)
Internet Explorer (to test my websites after developing in Firefox)
.NET framework
Visual Studio
Visio
Office

I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting too... I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but I have to admit that there are certain things that I like. Visual Studio is pretty nice and I really like C# as a language. Then I see their browsers and OSs and it makes me want to gag.

At work I'm fully entrenched in Microsoft. At home the list of Microsoft technology I use?
<empty>
(well, to be honest, I probably use windows media player codecs at times)

As for your list
Windows -> Linux
Internet Explorer -> Use wine if you really need to install IE to test your websites
.NET -> Mono (I believe?)
Visual Studio -> why?
Visio -> There are a few open source flow-chart/diagramming programs. I have not played with them much, but they are available.
Office -> OpenOffice

skibum1321
10-12-2007, 10:22 AM
How about ignoring IE until Microsoft decides to follow standards? :-)

Amen and Glory Be!

I think that's all I have to say on the issue.

Oh, come on, we can say more .. How about ignoring Microsoft completely? :-) (I'm a Linux-user at home, unfortunately not one at work.)
If only it were possible to ignore them completely. They have such a stranglehold on the tech world that it will never happen.
Just an example of Microsoft technology that I use regularly:
Windows (at work and home)
Internet Explorer (to test my websites after developing in Firefox)
.NET framework
Visual Studio
Visio
Office

I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting too... I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but I have to admit that there are certain things that I like. Visual Studio is pretty nice and I really like C# as a language. Then I see their browsers and OSs and it makes me want to gag.

At work I'm fully entrenched in Microsoft. At home the list of Microsoft technology I use?
<empty>
(well, to be honest, I probably use windows media player codecs at times)

As for your list
Windows -> Linux
Internet Explorer -> Use wine if you really need to install IE to test your websites
.NET -> Mono (I believe?)
Visual Studio -> why?
Visio -> There are a few open source flow-chart/diagramming programs. I have not played with them much, but they are available.
Office -> OpenOffice

Linux -> I just haven't had the time to install it, but on making my next computer a dual boot with Ubuntu and Windows. I would just rather have a dual boot than run Wine - that just adds one more layer of complexity where errors can occur.
IE -> Again, I only use this for testing sites and since I have Windows, then there is no reason not to have it
.NET -> This one is for work
Visual Studio -> Again, this is for work. I develop sites in ASP.NET, so Visual Studio is pretty much a given.
Visio -> At work again. I honestly like Visio and am not in the market for an alternative
Office -> I have OpenOffice at home, but at work I have MS

Overall, I prefer Open source software, but there sometimes the apps from the big players are just plain better. I'm usually not one to defend Microsoft, but not everything they make is complete crap. Most of it is, but not all of it.

Lostone
10-12-2007, 11:34 AM
Does Open Office seamlessly read/write Windows Office files?

In the future, I might switch to Linux, as the later Windows systems want more than my poor little computer can give.

Also add to that list, PaintShop?

skibum1321
10-12-2007, 12:34 PM
Does Open Office seamlessly read/write Windows Office files?

In the future, I might switch to Linux, as the later Windows systems want more than my poor little computer can give.

Also add to that list, PaintShop?
Open Office does seamlessly read and write MS Office files in my experience. It also gives you way more options for saving, such as saving to PDF (also available in Google Docs).

What is PaintShop? There is MS Paint, which is a dinky little program. I regularly use Adobe Photoshop, which is a great program and I haven't found anything Open Source that can come close to it (I've used the GIMP and GIMPShop and they are both pretty bad).

kcyanks1
10-12-2007, 12:51 PM
Does Open Office seamlessly read/write Windows Office files?

In the future, I might switch to Linux, as the later Windows systems want more than my poor little computer can give.

Also add to that list, PaintShop?
Open Office does seamlessly read and write MS Office files in my experience. It also gives you way more options for saving, such as saving to PDF (also available in Google Docs).

What is PaintShop? There is MS Paint, which is a dinky little program. I regularly use Adobe Photoshop, which is a great program and I haven't found anything Open Source that can come close to it (I've used the GIMP and GIMPShop and they are both pretty bad).

As skibum1321 said, OpenOffice is good with MS office files generally. Complex files might be tougher. Also there are more difficulties with the new OOXML files. People have created converters. Thankfully I've never had to deal with an OOXML file yet.

As for the GIMP, while I would guess I probably have less experience editing graphics than skibum1321, I will disagree that it is pretty bad. From everything I've gathered, the consensus is that it is fairly good, even if not quite what Photoshop is. It is pretty powerful software and does have much of the features that Photoshop does, to my knowledge. The big knock on it for people who have used Photoshop is that the interface in the GIMP is drastically different. OpenOffice, on the other hand, has an interface quite similar to MS Office. I believe there are plugins for the GIMP to make it look more like Photoshop. But it's the interface that bugs people, IMO, not the features.

kcyanks1
10-12-2007, 12:52 PM
Overall, I prefer Open source software, but there sometimes the apps from the big players are just plain better. I'm usually not one to defend Microsoft, but not everything they make is complete crap. Most of it is, but not all of it.

It's philosophical as well as practical for me.

Lostone
10-12-2007, 01:25 PM
What is PaintShop?

PaintShop Pro is similar to PhotoShop. May be missing a few features, but I haven't found any, yet. What is lost is all the filters that others write for PhotoShop.

As for the moment, I already have the programs for Windows, so it wouldn't hurt them for me to replace them with open source stuff.

But I am keeping it in mind. Next reformat, Win98 may be unusable.

Anyone know if you can still get the original updates from M$oft? You know, the ones that Windows tries to get, after you do the first install? It would seem they have to have them available, as Windows 98 is really incomplete, as it is on the disk. :?

kcyanks1
10-12-2007, 03:42 PM
What is PaintShop?

PaintShop Pro is similar to PhotoShop. May be missing a few features, but I haven't found any, yet. What is lost is all the filters that others write for PhotoShop.

As for the moment, I already have the programs for Windows, so it wouldn't hurt them for me to replace them with open source stuff.

Many of these programs are available for Windows. If you have the disk space, you can try them now and make sure you are comfortable before switching operating systems. Open Office and the GIMP are both available.

skibum1321
10-15-2007, 06:36 AM
You could always dual boot for a while instead of switching straight up.

kcyanks, GIMPShop is one of the programs that gives the GIMP a more PhotoShop-like feel. I haven't used it a ton, but it just seems as if the quality of the images isn't as good. This could just be my inexperience with the program - maybe I need to tweak some settings.

kcyanks1
10-15-2007, 08:50 AM
You could always dual boot for a while instead of switching straight up.

kcyanks, GIMPShop is one of the programs that gives the GIMP a more PhotoShop-like feel. I haven't used it a ton, but it just seems as if the quality of the images isn't as good. This could just be my inexperience with the program - maybe I need to tweak some settings.

I have had others have preferences for Photoshop, but just haven't heard people as turned off from the GIMP as you are. Of course everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. I started off dual booting, and now run solely Linux, and even wiped Windows on my old computer when I got a new one. So I currently own no machines with Windows. Dual booting is easy though with modern distros like Ubuntu, as long as you install Windows first.

Lostone
10-15-2007, 09:10 AM
Like I keep saying, this is an old system.

I'm running 34G of drive space. (Actually, there is a 15G drive, also, but it is basically storage.)

Dual boot is not really an option, at this point. I'm more gathering information in case I'm not able to redo Windows at the next format.

I'm actually, overdue. I used to do a format and re-install, every 2 years. This system is working fine for 4 years, now. (Knock on my head. :oops: )

At the moment, I'd like to limit the time I spend on my computer, where I'm just messing with the computer, itself. I'd rather spend my time working with the picture editors, spreadsheets, and such.

(I'm not known for spending too little time on the computer. :wink: )