Let's get it started

[HowieT2]

Things are pretty slow on this board so I offer this thought to kick things off now that we have passed labor day, school has begun and football season is upon us.
When we returned home from Cape Cod, my son (11) read that there were going to be some night time lows in the 30's. So he asked me with a big grin on his freckled face "you think they can start making snow soon?"

Seriously though, when does snow making commence.

I recall from last year especially during that dreadful January that some of you have some mystical snow dances. I suggest you start them now because it seems to take a long time for the atmospheric and climatological forces to get everything in proper alignment.

[Yard Sale]

A question I have is which will open first North or South? I imagine it hasn't been determined yet, and depends on Mother Nature. I imagine if conditions allow that it will be South.

[BushMogulMaster]

A question I have is which will open first North or South? I imagine it hasn't been determined yet, and depends on Mother Nature. I imagine if conditions allow that it will be South.

It was subtly announced on the season pass page:


Mt. Ellen Passes
Valid at Sugarbush's Mt. Ellen and early season at Lincoln Peak (before Mt. Ellen opens)

[Yard Sale]

2000 miles away and still on top of things back at home. That's impressive. Now, back to your studies. We're expecting big mounds of man made snow in about 4 years. :D

[Lostone]

The answers to these questions and more will likely be given during the Community Day presentations. Hope as many of you as possible show.

This, of course does not preclude people from asking, here. You never know what sneak previews on which answers we might garner. :)

Plus, as Howie suggests... it isn't like you'll be stressing the board by too much posting. :wink:

[BushMogulMaster]

2000 miles away and still on top of things back at home. That's impressive. Now, back to your studies. We're expecting big mounds of man made snow in about 4 years. :D

Well, I have to keep up to date, you know. Actually, it's a two year program, so you won't have to wait long.


Okay, back to statistics homework, and getting ready for Snowmaking Operations class.

[freeheel_skier]

How about when the 1st snow or measurable snow occurs on the hill??? :D

I say October 12th! 8)

[noski]

ok, how about this: Give me a formula to use to calculate my estimate of the coming season's snowfall. Remember last year I used:

- the date: 10 (plus)
- the temp at the top of Sugarbush on Peak Foliage Day: 30 (plus)
- number of hard frosts at the base of MRG by Peak Day: 2 (multiplied by)
- number of maple leaves that fell in the sap bucket carried by 2 schoolkids, while Eric Friedman and JJ Toland shook the tree with a stout rope.

10 + 30 + 2 x 7 = 294

I undershot by about 2 feet. Can you help me fix the formula to get closer??/

ok, how about this: Give me a formula to use to calculate my estimate of the coming season's snowfall. Remember last year I used:

- the date: 10 (plus)
- the temp at the top of Sugarbush on Peak Foliage Day: 30 (plus)
- number of hard frosts at the base of MRG by Peak Day: 2 (multiplied by)
- number of maple leaves that fell in the sap bucket carried by 2 schoolkids, while Eric Friedman and JJ Toland shook the tree with a stout rope.

10 + 30 + 2 x 7 = 294

I undershot by about 2 feet. Can you help me fix the formula to get closer??/
Tell those girlie-men to shake the crap out of the tree this year. 9 or 10 leaves should suffice...

[Lostone]

WE WANT FASTER KIDS!

WE WANT FASTER KIDS!

WE WANT FASTER KIDS!

:lol:

[Yard Sale]

WE NEED BIGGER BUCKETS DAMN IT!!!

[noski]

ROFLMAO!

[ski_resort_observer]

South will open first unless something really weird happens.

[BushMogulMaster]

South will open first unless something really weird happens.

Do I hear an echo? :wink:

[win]

I was going to tell you, but Lostone thinks I should wait to Community Day, so come on up for a fun day on October 6th. We will still have the zip line going, Bravo running, mountain biking, disc golf and a BBQ outside if the weather is nice!

[Tin Woodsman]

Just noticed South is opening first.

Here we go again....

[win]

Tin my man! What more can I say except that I know you love it up here as much as I do! Bring on the snow!

[Tin Woodsman]

Tin my man! What more can I say except that I know you love it up here as much as I do! Bring on the snow!

I do indeed. I just wish that, in a normal season, I could love it for a month longer due to early and late season ops being at ME.

[castlerock]

As a homeowner at South, Early and Late at LP is convenient. But last year was a fluke, especially for late season.

I can definitely see early season at South, as early is dominated by overall temperature and snow making effort. Skipping the download would be an added bonus. That can make sense

But as for late, 5$ USD says, that we end up at North this spring (If we stay open through April 27, the end of the "April Vacation" week). Remember in spring 2007, we were blessed with record snows and unseasonably steady cold through early April. It wont happen again (sorry for the negative vibes) although I wish it would.

On top of last year's statistical anomaly, one fact seems to have been missed from the discussion. Snow cover is a function making it or getting it. Lets assume that we get/make the same snow as last year (to eliminate that part of the argument). The other issue is snow quality (not cover) especially at the bottom. Quality is dominated by temperature and aspect. That is where LP falls short. It is hot at the bottom and it bakes in the sun. It was brutal trying to get back to the lifts at the end of the year last year. I was dragging multiple kids back to the lifts, or walking myself. We had snow, it was just soup, not granular. At North we'll be 1-2K feet higher (Summit vs Bravo) and less direct sun (N vs E aspect).

See you all at Homeowners...

[Bubba]

As a homeowner at South, Early and Late at LP is convenient. But last year was a fluke, especially for late season.

I can definitely see early season at South, as early is dominated by overall temperature and snow making effort. Skipping the download would be an added bonus. That can make sense

But as for late, 5$ USD says, that we end up at North this spring (If we stay open through April 27, the end of the "April Vacation" week). Remember in spring 2007, we were blessed with record snows and unseasonably steady cold through early April. It wont happen again (sorry for the negative vibes) although I wish it would.

On top of last year's statistical anomaly, one fact seems to have been missed from the discussion. Snow cover is a function making it or getting it. Lets assume that we get/make the same snow as last year (to eliminate that part of the argument). The other issue is snow quality (not cover) especially at the bottom. Quality is dominated by temperature and aspect. That is where LP falls short. It is hot at the bottom and it bakes in the sun. It was brutal trying to get back to the lifts at the end of the year last year. I was dragging multiple kids back to the lifts, or walking myself. We had snow, it was just soup, not granular. At North we'll be 1-2K feet higher (Summit vs Bravo) and less direct sun (N vs E aspect).

See you all at Homeowners...

I know, I know; I sound like a broken record, but this is the year!
If memory serves, we had a season similar to this last one in 99-00. Everyone thought it was fantastic and it wouldn't happen again for some time. Then came 00-01. Slow start but look at the end of that season. Nine feet in March alone!
Seven year cycle!
Call me crazy but, I predict that you will have more trouble getting through the snow from Snow Creek parking lot to the trail than you will getting to the lift.
Just as an aside, I do not mind having North being the early and late Mt because I don't get to ski there often. However, I feel that South is the superior Mt and it is far more convenient for me since that is where I stow my gear.

[BushMogulMaster]

However, I feel that South is the superior Mt

That's because I haven't given you a tour of Mt. Ellen. :wink:

Superior snow, superior bumps, superior fun, superior layout, superior lifts (except Inverness :wink: ), superior potential, less crowded, better experience, IMHO.

[Lostone]

I have to say that the year before, Straight Shot was no winner toward the end, either. I was loving it, but there were a lot of bodies to have to pick my way around.

Again, in full disclosure mode, I also live at South, so like not having to drive, but I also like South a lot more.

And tho Summit gives you the ability to just ski the top, and download, I wish you heard the number of complaints I heard about downloading, last fall. And that was with really sucky weather patterns! :?

It is good to have the option of the top of North as an option in their quiver, but they've done South early and late before. I'm hoping it works out well. They're betting it will.

I think we just need to get Noski to get that snowfall started a little earlier, this year. :wink:

[BushMogulMaster]

And tho Summit gives you the ability to just ski the top, and download, I wish you heard the number of complaints I heard about downloading, last fall. And that was with really sucky weather patterns! :?

That's is often very true for early season. Not so much for late season. In November when it's cold and all people want to do is ski, and then be done, they complain about having to download. No doubt. But in the end of the season, it's generally warm and everyone's just having a good time. The downloading at the end of the day is no big deal, and is actually fun when it's comfortable outside. At the end of the 05/06 season (during downloading season), I must have ridden Summit with at least 200 different people, and MAYBE one of them complained about downloading. I also spent the better part of one of those last days at the bottom of GMX talking with lift ops and various other mountain staff. Everyone unloaded with smiles on their faces and just said thanks.

So maybe early season downloading is rough and people complain, but the same is not true for late season.

[ski_resort_observer]

Okay, I'm gonna make this short and not so sweet as I don't want this to turn into the same debate we had last year. If, for only a minute, you try to see this from the resort's perspective where you have to think about the financial success of the entire resort so they can make all the future improvements we all want and forget about your own personal needs.......only a fool would let your 65m investment sit there unused for 25% of the ski season.

[Treeskier]

With Killington advertising that they will not open till Nov. 15th. We have the ability to open before them. That would be grand. But I do hope where ever we open it is top notch.

As for a perdiction. I think like Bubba this year has all the makings of the 2001 season (calander year not season). Great snow depths in the beginning...a great drys sunny summer and a snowy Nov. and Dec. As for 2002 that was good but not 2001. I remember while everyone back home where going to Christmas parties. The powder hounds where skiing in the trees like last March.

So dust off your skis and be ready early!

[Yard Sale]

Generally, I like to sample the meal before I critique the cook and question the ingredients of the recipe. Summit has not just expressed but demonstrated the willingness and the ability to make both innovative as well as common sense changes quickly and usually for the benefit of all parties: resort and skiers/boarders alike. I'll sweat Juneuary, if it comes. 'Til then I'll kiss my wife, children and my skis good night every night and have powder dreams.

[Tin Woodsman]

Okay, I'm gonna make this short and not so sweet as I don't want this to turn into the same debate we had last year. If, for only a minute, you try to see this from the resort's perspective where you have to think about the financial success of the entire resort so they can make all the future improvements we all want and forget about your own personal needs.......only a fool would let your 65m investment sit there unused for 25% of the ski season.

SRO - I hear you from a realist's perspective, but let's get the facts straight. I'm pretty sure they don't close Clay Brook when LP isn't operating. That's $60MM of the $65MM you mention. True, the lodge lies fallow for that period of time, so that's not optimal. As with others, I could see why you'd want to open the season at LP. Early season is more about snowmaking firepower than it is about elevation and aspect. Also, people notice what's going on in the early season a LOT more than they do after April 1. I continue to believe that abandoning ME for Spring skiing isn't optimal from either an economic or a skiing perspective.

For what it's worth, I think many of the complaints about downloading last year weren't strictly about downloading itself. Rather, it was that several other resorts were top-to-bottom in early/mid December while ME was still downloading. A downloading set-up couldn't handle the crowds you typically see at that time of year. If it was just for a few weeks at the end of November, no one would have cared.

[Fourwide]

Any chance of fixing this? The place is cavernous. I'm tired of having to track down my party using GPS coordinates. Perhaps the sprawling southern wing could be set apart and converted into a separate fondue bar?

[noski]

(aside- thanks for using MM for $million. I thought I was one of only a handful that use M for $thousand- not K-, MM instead of M for $million. It must be the 'recovering banker' syndrome I have.)
That's $60MM of the $65MM

[Fourwide]

How's everyone's golf season coming along? I have not yet reached the point where I turn from golf to ski. Leaves must start to fall from the trees for that transition to occur. Looking forward to playing the Sugarbush course in early October. The golf season in the mid-Atlantic has been spectacular.

[BushMogulMaster]

Okay, I'm gonna make this short and not so sweet as I don't want this to turn into the same debate we had last year. If, for only a minute, you try to see this from the resort's perspective where you have to think about the financial success of the entire resort so they can make all the future improvements we all want and forget about your own personal needs.......only a fool would let your 65m investment sit there unused for 25% of the ski season.

I respect your opinion, SRO. However, I am looking at the resorts financial success as the key to my argument. And by the way, since I won't be skiing in the spring at Sugarbush this year, it does not directly affect me. I'm being as objective as possible, and setting aside my love for Mt. Ellen.

I've already agreed that, from a strictly business perspective, LP might be more appropriate for early season skiing. It's tough to argue that one, because as long as temperatures cooperate, there's no reason not to go T2B at LP to serve all of the new amenities rather than downloading at ME with it's outdated facilities (as much as I love them). Much of the early season (opening-New Years) market are the city folk and the destination skier visits that the mountain relies on, and many of them base their experience on the base amenities and facilities as much as the skiing. They are the people who don't want to download. They are bringing the money. They are staying at Clay Brook and eating at Timbers.

However, the story is not the same in the late season. The primary late season market is made of up a combination of lots of locals, lots of hardcore skiers, and a handful (not very many) destination visitors. The people coming to ski in April and early May are not (for the most part) the folks forking over money at Clay Brook and Timbers every night. They either live nearby and have a pass/buy a late-season day pass, or they are coming in late season to get cheaper skiing and are probably staying at the Sugarlodge or the Whitehorse, and eating at the Hyde Away. They're looking for a quality ski product: good cover/depth, a few options, a sunny place to sit and enjoy the weather and watch the skiers, etc. Mt. Ellen is the place for that. I'll admit, last spring worked out fairly well at LP, and I had fun. I always have fun when there are bumps to rip. But last season was an extreme aberration from the norm, and cannot be expected in the coming seasons (as nice as it would be to always get 7' in April!). Mt. Ellen wins on elevation for snowcover and depth, and because of that it wins for trail options. For example, last season (even with 7' of April snow), LP came down to Steins and a very thin Spring Fling. That same weekend, we could have still been skiing FIS, Black Diamond (with a thin cover bamboo sign), Rim Run, Elbow, Lookin Good, Exterminator, North Star, riding NRX and Summit with downloading on GMX. In a normal season, late season will generally include FIS, Rim, and Elbow. Possibly Lookin Good, given an extra night of snowmaking. As we all stressed so much in this discussion last year, ME has the Glen House deck. As fun as the patio outside the C-Rock Pub was, it just wasn't the same as the Glen House deck.

I think we all realize that spring skiing is not a money maker for ski areas. The last month of operations simply does not make much of a profit. Looking at the market for spring skiing, Sugarbush could make a slightly greater profit off of Mt. Ellen, because it provides a reliable proven spring product, even in a rough snow year like 05/06. Imagine if this season is like that... what are they going to do come April at LP?

The idea of keeping Mt. Ellen as a backup, while it sounds good, is not feasible. Last season, it might have worked. That's because they had already made snow at ME planning on spring skiing there. This year, if they only make the extra snow at LP in planning for spring, ME will still have cover on trails like FIS and Elbow, but the key spots such as Baldy, Mid-Flats, Summit unload, GMX load/unload, Lower Rim Run, etc. will all likely be unskiable.

And for what it's worth, I heard a lot more complaints about hiking up to the Valley House to get on the lift than I [i]ever[i] heard about downloading--early or late season--at ME.

As for the $60MM investment... it will only sit "idle" for 15% of the season. A little less than a month out of little less than 6 is not too much. And it really would not sit idle anyway. People will still go to Timbers, skiers and local non-skiers both. The Clay Brook owners will still own their units and will still be paying their fees. They'll still go skiing, even if they resent having to...GASP... drive 5 minutes to get the superior product.

That's my .02. I'm really trying to take a step back and look at this completely unbiased. Those are the facts as I see them. I realize that I'm young, and because of that, I may not have the experience or wisdom of folks like SRO. But I do feel like I have a pretty solid grasp on the fundamentals of this industry, and I've put quite a lot of thought into this situation.

However, I'm still open to any rebuttal. Just remember... everyone's entitled to my opinion :wink: :lol: (<-- please note the emoticons)

[Yard Sale]

BMM: You make an interesting case with many valid points. However, regardless of where the early and late season skiing takes place, whether or not you agree with the decision, one can only embrace the philosophy employed by SB management when facing tough descisions like which beautiful mountain to open first. That philosophy was perhaps never stated more eloquently than by Spock and Captain Kirk in the 1982 epic film Wrath of Khan:

Spock: It is logical. The needs of the many outweigh...

Kirk: ...the needs of the few.

Live long and prosper BMM. Live long and prosper. :D

Yard Sale

[ski_it]

I love skiing late spring bumps on FIS as much as anyone on this board, but my understanding is that South has more snowmaking capacity than North. North has slightly higher elevation and has less south-facing slopes allowing it to hold onto snow better, but one could argue that the wind scouring the summit of Mt. Ellen eliminates that benefit as an even larger stockpile of snow needs to be made to compensate. It seems to me that the larger snowmaking capacity at South should allow for a better shot at getting open earlier with better cover. The earlier the better, as far as I'm concerned-- I'm not a golfer and I'm ready to ski now! (I'll settle for my bikes until the snow flies though). I can't comment on late season since last year was the first one for me, personally, where South was open later, and it was an abnormal year. I was still very impressed with the sheer volume of snow that was made at South and the creativity by which it was managed to allow for maximum terrain to stay open for as long as it did last season.

[BushMogulMaster]

BMM: You make an interesting case with many valid points. However, regardless of where the early and late season skiing takes place, whether or not you agree with the decision, one can only embrace the philosophy employed by SB management when facing tough descisions like which beautiful mountain to open first. That philosophy was perhaps never stated more eloquently than by Spock and Captain Kirk in the 1982 epic film Wrath of Khan:

Spock: It is logical. The needs of the many outweigh...

Kirk: ...the needs of the few.

Live long and prosper BMM. Live long and prosper. :D

Yard Sale

Perhaps, perhaps. And I want to make it very clear that regardless of my opinion and regardless of the decision, I will always stand behind and pledge my loyalty to Sugarbush and to Win, et. al. We all see things from a different perspective. I'd like to hope that late season will be back at ME soon. But I will support the management regardless.

STII is one of the greatest works of art the film industry has ever produced. "KHAAAAAAAN!"

But may I point out the outcome of the situation in Star Trek III... Kirk, Sulu, Scotty, Uhura, and Bones all risk their lives and their careers because they believed, in that situation, that the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many. And because of that decision, Spock lived. Because Spock lived, he initiated the peace initiative with Gorkon. Because Spock lived, he figured Valeris/Chang out. Because Spock lived, he initiated the reunification process. Because Spock lived, the UFP survived. Because Spock lived, Star Trek lived. Therefore, one can deduce that in certain situations, the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. Just imagine if they left Spock for dead!

Qa'Plah! Live long, and prosper.

[Mike451]

I am staying out of this.............

[castlerock]

BMM and Tinny are right on.
LP early and Ellen Late is the ticket.
I hope that the powers that be don't suffer a case of hubris due to the luck of last spring.

[smootharc]

STII is one of the greatest works of art the film industry has ever produced. "KHAAAAAAAN!"

....Ishtar. :wink:

How about a "Bad Movies for $100, Alec" thread....

[random_ski_guy]

I think LP early and Mt Ellen late would be the way to go too. As long as LP is open through the first weekend in April (second weekend in snowy springs), the Claybrook owners should feel as if they have gotten their $s worth from their investment.

[HowieT2]

BMM: You make an interesting case with many valid points. However, regardless of where the early and late season skiing takes place, whether or not you agree with the decision, one can only embrace the philosophy employed by SB management when facing tough descisions like which beautiful mountain to open first. That philosophy was perhaps never stated more eloquently than by Spock and Captain Kirk in the 1982 epic film Wrath of Khan:

Spock: It is logical. The needs of the many outweigh...

Kirk: ...the needs of the few.

Live long and prosper BMM. Live long and prosper. :D

Yard Sale

Perhaps, perhaps. And I want to make it very clear that regardless of my opinion and regardless of the decision, I will always stand behind and pledge my loyalty to Sugarbush and to Win, et. al. We all see things from a different perspective. I'd like to hope that late season will be back at ME soon. But I will support the management regardless.

STII is one of the greatest works of art the film industry has ever produced. "KHAAAAAAAN!"

But may I point out the outcome of the situation in Star Trek III... Kirk, Sulu, Scotty, Uhura, and Bones all risk their lives and their careers because they believed, in that situation, that the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many. And because of that decision, Spock lived. Because Spock lived, he initiated the peace initiative with Gorkon. Because Spock lived, he figured Valeris/Chang out. Because Spock lived, he initiated the reunification process. Because Spock lived, the UFP survived. Because Spock lived, Star Trek lived. Therefore, one can deduce that in certain situations, the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. Just imagine if they left Spock for dead!

Qa'Plah! Live long, and prosper.


I was in the supermarket last night and they had The wrath of Khan for $5.

[BushMogulMaster]

I was in the supermarket last night and they had The wrath of Khan for $5.

That's a steal! You should have picked it up!

I have multiple copies...........

[random_ski_guy]

I was in the supermarket last night and they had The wrath of Khan for $5.

That's a steal! You should have picked it up!

I have multiple copies...........

Don't do it, this kind of activity only encourages Hollywood to make awful movies. Over time those $5 bills add up. Sorry BMM. :)

[win]

This will be my first and last comment of the 2006/2007 season on early and late, but everyone can keep on chatting. We have made our choice and we are sticking with it so what we think are a lot of good reasons. Love to read everyone's thoughts and opinions but at some point decisions have to be made. Lincoln Peak will be the early and the late Mountain. ME passholders will be able to ski and ride LP until ME open before Christmas. Remember, I am your kindred spirit so I ski and ride what you do! THINK SNOW EARLY AND LATE AND WE WILL ALL HAVE A GREAT SEASON.

[BushMogulMaster]

This will be my first and last comment of the 2006/2007 season on early and late, but everyone can keep on chatting. We have made our choice and we are sticking with it so what we think are a lot of good reasons. Love to read everyone's thoughts and opinions but at some point decisions have to be made. Lincoln Peak will be the early and the late Mountain. ME passholders will be able to ski and ride LP until ME open before Christmas. Remember, I am your kindred spirit so I ski and ride what you do! THINK SNOW EARLY AND LATE AND WE WILL ALL HAVE A GREAT SEASON.

A logical, even keeled response. You're definitely right, that a decision has to be made at some point. You've made it, and I wish you the best.

My analysis stands, but I respect your choice. I'll be skiing A-Basin and Copper and Winter Park at that point. :D

[Treeskier]

Win,

I understand a marketing statement. To the rest I have seen when Mother Nature through curve balls and Win has gone to the out side to catch it. So lets think snowy thoughts and start our snow dance. So we can start skiing sooooon! I suspect in the end he will do what is best to give us good skiing as soon as he can.

[Yard Sale]

Well, increasing visits seems to be the name of the game. Early and late season are the times I imagine where you'd really want to make a dent in icreased visits introducing people to skiing at those times of year that normally don't. LP village is the perfect platform from which to make such introduction. Thanks for the info and good luck.

I'm for one am very excited!

[Tin Woodsman]

I always give you guys the benefit of the doubt. One of the reasons this is becoming an ever-more-useful community is the ability to exchange to freely exchange our thoughts. Maybe we aren't representative of the target market, but we're a component of the marketplace. At the end of the day, you've got to do what you've got to do - if it works for SB in the big picture, that's great.


But I don't have to like it.


America - what a country! :D

[Mike451]

Well I guess if things go well the snowguns will be unleashing all out madness in a month and a half or so :P


I think opening at south is the wise thing to do unless the temperatures mandate opening at the top of Mt Ellen. However if they are inverted as they often are this time of year it works out for the better blasting on the lower parts of the mountain at South.

The one bone I have to pick is that the terrain at the top of Mt Ellen is better than the mayhem of Deathspout and is worth the longer lift lines. Again this is irrelevant if the snowmaking temperatuers are good and combined a foot of two of natural snow there is more terrain than deathspout and organgrinder.

I would take Rim Run and Elbow with the Possibility of FIS and Exterminator anyday over deathspout :roll:

I hope the larger snowmaking system at South will facilitate the opening of more terrain as fast as possibile and that the tepmeratures are good enough that it dosent become a struggle to keep things from burning out.

I really don't care which opens first as this season I will be too busy to ski up untill Christmas :wink:

[Tin Woodsman]

What they really need if LP is going to be the early season mountain is a way to access Lower Ripcord from the turn before the steep section on Deathspout. Right now, Deathspout is the only way to the HG Triple in the first few weeks. They can't make snow on Domino or HG Traverse, so those aren't early-season options to lighten the load. If you could cut a small traverse from Deathspout to Lower Ripcord, you could make snow on it by using the existing pipes on either end and then spread out the traffic on two wide runs instead of just Deathspout - it's that bottom, steep-ish pitch which really earns the run its nickname anyway.

[Lostone]

I think you have it backwards?

You can get to Lower OG from the lift. You just can't get to Heaven's Gate from Lower Organgrinder without Heaven's Gate Traverse. It would be nice to see snow plowed on that, early season.

You're right that Deathspout earns its name when it is the only way down. :shock:

[Tin Woodsman]

I think you have it backwards?

You can get to Lower OG from the lift. You just can't get to Heaven's Gate from Lower Organgrinder without Heaven's Gate Traverse. It would be nice to see snow plowed on that, early season.

You're right that Deathspout earns its name when it is the only way down. :shock:

No, I think I've got it frontwards. Without the benefit of natural snow, you can't get to the HG triple via HG Traverse or Domino. That means that Deathspout is the only way to get there until they open Lower Ripcord via Spillsville (natural), Upper Ripcord (takes too much snowmaking) or Paradise (natural). A short cut-through to Lower Ripcord at the right turn on Deathspout (the one where some folks hang out on the semi-flats to the left) before the steeper pitch down tot he lift would be a great solution.

[Lostone]

My bad. Where you wrote Lower Ripcord, I read Lower Organgrinder. :oops:

[Mike451]

What they really need if LP is going to be the early season mountain is a way to access Lower Ripcord from the turn before the steep section on Deathspout. Right now, Deathspout is the only way to the HG Triple in the first few weeks. They can't make snow on Domino or HG Traverse, so those aren't early-season options to lighten the load. If you could cut a small traverse from Deathspout to Lower Ripcord, you could make snow on it by using the existing pipes on either end and then spread out the traffic on two wide runs instead of just Deathspout - it's that bottom, steep-ish pitch which really earns the run its nickname anyway.

I think this idea makes sense. Lower ripcord when groomed skis alot like a blue as well.

[Tin Woodsman]

What they really need if LP is going to be the early season mountain is a way to access Lower Ripcord from the turn before the steep section on Deathspout. Right now, Deathspout is the only way to the HG Triple in the first few weeks. They can't make snow on Domino or HG Traverse, so those aren't early-season options to lighten the load. If you could cut a small traverse from Deathspout to Lower Ripcord, you could make snow on it by using the existing pipes on either end and then spread out the traffic on two wide runs instead of just Deathspout - it's that bottom, steep-ish pitch which really earns the run its nickname anyway.

I think this idea makes sense. Lower ripcord when groomed skis alot like a blue as well.

Exackery

[slatham]

I've been thinking this for years - avoid death spout with a traverse - if not slightly downhill pitched trail - from the intersection of organgrinder and downspout heading toward lower ripcord. lower ripcord is a much better ski than deathspout, and this would give two options, thus lessening traffic on deathspout and keeping the snow better. doesn"t seem like such a trail would be a major effort, though the forest service might disagree.

[random_ski_guy]

i like this idea for lower ripcord as well. i often wondered why they didn't try to alleviate some of the downspout crowding by trying to direct some of the traffic to lower ripcord. i suppose it mean its time to recognize lower ripcord (the lower half) for what it is, a blue, when groomed.

[HowieT2]

I agree although when the snow is good there's always been a traverse for me.

[Strat]

There is that nasty waterbar at the bottom of Ripcord though... they'd need to do a lot of snowfarming to make it workable, no?

[Mike451]

There is that nasty waterbar at the bottom of Ripcord though... they'd need to do a lot of snowfarming to make it workable, no?

Fill it in with branches and plow or shovel a bit of snow over it :?

[Tin Woodsman]

There is that nasty waterbar at the bottom of Ripcord though... they'd need to do a lot of snowfarming to make it workable, no?

Of course you could always just make snow in the vicinity, so I'm not sure why that particularl waterbar wouldpose a unique problem.

[HowieT2]

There is that nasty waterbar at the bottom of Ripcord though... they'd need to do a lot of snowfarming to make it workable, no?

Of course you could always just make snow in the vicinity, so I'm not sure why that particularl waterbar wouldpose a unique problem.

That's the stream that comes out of the gully in the woods right there and it appears to be difficult to fill in when the temps aren't cooperative. If I recall correctly last year they made a snow bridge over the waterbar.

[Tin Woodsman]

There is that nasty waterbar at the bottom of Ripcord though... they'd need to do a lot of snowfarming to make it workable, no?

Of course you could always just make snow in the vicinity, so I'm not sure why that particularl waterbar wouldpose a unique problem.

That's the stream that comes out of the gully in the woods right there and it appears to be difficult to fill in when the temps aren't cooperative. If I recall correctly last year they made a snow bridge over the waterbar.

Culverts are good.