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Tin Woodsman
03-20-2007, 03:52 PM
The positives:

- Holding the line on the ME pass price

- Adding the ME Plus pass. This helps to serve a niche that proves to be a win/win for the mountain and customers.

- Including April skiing this year for "free"

The negatives:

- The early bird discount isn't really substantial if you've already paid for tickets for the rest of the year

- Regardless, the pricing of the pass is, IMHO, about $50-100 too high. I can still get vouchers via one of the members of the CT Ski Council for what will likely be $42-44/day next year. That puts my break-even at somewhere in the 22-23 day range. I guess this works better for people who don't avail themselves of these types of deals, but that's a stretch for me. $950 is just a bridge too far, IMHO.

Discuss...

shadyjay
03-20-2007, 04:11 PM
"All Mtn" prices are high, yes. That's why I go with the Mt Ellen pass, and for next year, the Plus. Though I love the terrain over at LP, I have had quite a joy with the trails over at Ellen. There have been several weekend days when it has been dead over at Ellen - why? Cause everyone's over at LP. That's why the Plus pass is perfect for me. I like to ride over at LP and would ride over there more if I could get a better discount. Then the Plus pass comes along. Perfect!

Can't see myself shelling out nearly a grand on an All-Mtn pass to any mountain.

TimKeogh
03-20-2007, 04:29 PM
I can still get vouchers via one of the members of the CT Ski Council for what will likely be $42-44/day next year.


Tin, I hope the members of the CT ski council do not sell tickets to non-members. This is a clear violation of council rules and I fear that this great program could disappear because it might get widely abused. I am not accusing anyone, but I would suggest that becoming a member is the way to go - if you do not buy a pass.

I pay only $50 to join for my entire family. I currently live in Vermont but maintain my good standing with the club, so I do not think there are any geographic restrictions.

I also like the skiing at Okemo, Stratton & <gasp>K-Town</gasp> once in a while. The club is great for that.

madhavok
03-20-2007, 04:37 PM
The positives:

- Holding the line on the ME pass price

- Adding the ME Plus pass. This helps to serve a niche that proves to be a win/win for the mountain and customers.

- Including April skiing this year for "free"

The negatives:

- The early bird discount isn't really substantial if you've already paid for tickets for the rest of the year

- Regardless, the pricing of the pass is, IMHO, about $50-100 too high. I can still get vouchers via one of the members of the CT Ski Council for what will likely be $42-44/day next year. That puts my break-even at somewhere in the 22-23 day range. I guess this works better for people who don't avail themselves of these types of deals, but that's a stretch for me. $950 is just a bridge too far, IMHO.

Discuss...

I agree with you 100% (don't get used to it). Any chance we could get a forum member discount?

gone.skiing
03-20-2007, 04:48 PM
April skiing is not really new, is it? I skied a couple of days last year after buing 06/07 pass. It also does nothing for current pass holders. I would like to see an option to renew current pass with deeper discount.

sugarboarder
03-20-2007, 06:03 PM
OK - just one more post before sailing off into summer, because this pisses me off so much. :roll:

If you are thinking happy thoughts, and in a state of powder bliss, read no further. :wink:

My pass - All Mtn 5 - just went up $150 in one year. That's a 30% increase. That is absurd. It must be the value added...let's see...a nice REAL halfpipe that nobody drives a cat down the middle of? Nope, that's not it...but it's an "eyesore"...I forgot. What else? All the days use I got on the NASTAR course? Nope, was closed to us more than it was open on Fridays...that's not it. Hmmm. The privilege of schlepping gear up and down the stairs in the new lodge and having it buried in the little storage room? Nope, couldn't be it. :?

I guess we know who is paying for Clay Brook now, and it's not the unit owners. :x

Almost makes me want to get some skis and go to...to...uh...Mad River...almost. Probably Colorado instead. Have a nice summer everybody, really!! :D

bill-now
03-20-2007, 06:08 PM
A season pass that was all mountain weekdays and Mt. Ellen only weekends would be ideal for my family. Since SB's goal appears to encourage use of Mt Ellen, this pass would have the benefit to me of skiing any day I wish combined with the encouragement of skiing at Ellen when South is the busiest. A pre-season cost of $799 which is half-way between the All Mtn 5 and All Mtn 7 passes would hit my sweet spot.

Another idea would be to allow Mt Ellen pass holders (read Claybrook owners) one trip up the Gate House per day so they could commute via Slide Brook to ME.

BushMogulMaster
03-20-2007, 06:25 PM
Almost makes me want to get some skis and go to...to...uh...Mad River...almost. Probably Colorado instead. Have a nice summer everybody, really!! :D

I'll be in Colorado next year for most of the season!

Anyway... same to you. :)

saabski
03-20-2007, 06:36 PM
I agree with posts here that a bigger discount for purchase by early May would be well received (by me anyway!). $60 savings to purchase by May 3rd vs Sep 20......... not really that much of an incentive. Although I did buy my 06/07 pass in April of 06.

I am really interested in the ME+ pass and think that is going to be a popular addition to the lineup. I had the ME only pass 05/06 (nice, but I missed South more than I thought I would). For 06/07 I coughed up the nearly $1,000 for the All Mt 7 and of course the 1st half of the season I spent almost exclusively at ME. Hhhmmm. Since the arrival of real winter in early Feb, I have spent more time at LP, but also have been hijacked away to Stowe a couple of days, fortunately skiing for NC on the 'friends w/. vouchers' program. At $78/day PAYING to ski there just is a non-starter.
So, leaning towards the ME+ 7 as it is priced well and will give me the chance to pick a few non-crowded days to enjoy the terrain at LP.

It'll be really interesting to see how people respond to the offerings. The website could use a button or whatever to direct folks to pass prices - they seem a little buried where they are. Maybe it's just me? ;)

And (unrelated to pass pricing) how happy was I that I took yesterday as a VACATION day and skied Monday!??!?!? Un-freakin-believable snow....... talk about a parallel universe! Sure was outstanding......

win
03-20-2007, 07:12 PM
Are you having a bad day. Sugarboarder? I can explain the economics of this business to you if you like. If you want what I know you want, it does not come free or cheap. The All-Mountain 5 is a great deal and you know it! Less crowds and great conditions. We really should charge more for week days! If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!

As far as the Council tickets go, Tim is correct. If I discover that non-Council members are being sold or given tickets, that will end the Council program. This is very clear in the agreement. Shop lifters raise the price for all consumers and those that cheat ski resorts raise the price for all others. Each week we catch a few people trying to scam us and I have no sympathy for them. Fortunately 99% of our guests are honest and great people.

Freedom of speech is great! Uninformed rantings are dangerous!

Like it or not that is how I view things!

BushMogulMaster
03-20-2007, 07:26 PM
If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO!!!!!

Awesome, Win! Well put!

Eric Friedman is a great guy. You should go ahead and take Win up on the offer, Sugarboarder!

Win... that made my day! :D

shadyjay
03-20-2007, 08:04 PM
Wow....BMM and SB both out west next year? That means more powder for me (and the rest of us) - SWEET!
:D

BushMogulMaster
03-20-2007, 08:25 PM
Wow....BMM and SB both out west next year? That means more powder for me (and the rest of us) - SWEET!
:D

Oh, don't worry... I'll make a point to come back on the best powder days to take away your powder! :wink:

Sugaree
03-20-2007, 08:54 PM
For $950 I get 3 passes at LP (Me, my 9 year old and 6 year old). That's a great deal. Putting my 6 year old aside, because she is free in any event, my break even point is about 15 days (assuming Council pricing plus club membership). I far surpassed that. In fact, I figure that our per day cost this year was about $30.00. I could hardly complain about that.

Frankly, I don't mind spending money on the pass, if the ownership is putting money back into the mountain to make our experience enjoyable. This year we got more than our money's worth. The mountain ops team performed exceedingly well during the early season (pre mid-January). I told anyone who would listen that the pre-mid - January skiing at Sugarbush wasn't that bad, when it was horrendous everywhere else.

There are many occasions where I feel I'm getting ripped off (try a week at Disney for example), but this is not one of them.

madhavok
03-20-2007, 09:39 PM
On the plus side, I am extremely happy they got rid of the college student $299 pass.

sugarboarder
03-20-2007, 09:50 PM
Are you having a bad day. Sugarboarder? I can explain the economics of this business to you if you like. If you want what I know you want, it does not come free or cheap. The All-Mountain 5 is a great deal and you know it! Less crowds and great conditions. We really should charge more for week days! If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!

Freedom of speech is great! Uninformed rantings are dangerous!

Like it or not that is how I view things!

I'm having a great day, why? Because I'm unhappy with such a big price increase? Has nothing to do with the day I'm having. I don't need a lesson in business economics to know that a 27% price increase in one year is a lot, no matter what you are selling, unless it is a commodity. I'm betting no other mountain in the US increased the price of one pass by that percentage this year - but I'm not going to get into checking that out and a big "prove it" scenario...just a hunch. I never said I want anything cheap, and I don't know where you got FREE from. The All Mtn. 5 WAS a great deal. I'm sure you understand, and don't need a lesson in, the "economics" of charging MORE for weekday skiing...we may pay less for that time, but at least we are there when others cannot be. I used to go around telling other people at snowboard races all over New England and at Nationals, and kayak races in the summer all over the Eastern US what a great place Sugarbush was...so there is value above the straight $$ in having a contented group of loyal local clientele - I know you understand that, just making a point. I was just joking about the skis of course, although I know you'd love to get rid of me! :wink:

Freedom of speech is often called things like "uninformed rantings" by people who don't like what is being said, happens every day all over the world...especially if that person is viewed to have some sort of lower intellect because of the type of equipment attached to their feet. :P

sugarboarder
03-20-2007, 09:52 PM
If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!

You should go ahead and take Win up on the offer, Sugarboarder!



Fat chance...glad I could provide amusement for you.

freeheel_skier
03-20-2007, 09:59 PM
Are you having a bad day. Sugarboarder? I can explain the economics of this business to you if you like. If you want what I know you want, it does not come free or cheap. The All-Mountain 5 is a great deal and you know it! Less crowds and great conditions. We really should charge more for week days! If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!

Freedom of speech is great! Uninformed rantings are dangerous!

Like it or not that is how I view things!

:shock: OUCH!

Sugarboarder,

I totally sympathize with you! Still banging my head about ME closing 4/1!

sugarboarder
03-20-2007, 10:07 PM
Are you having a bad day. Sugarboarder? I can explain the economics of this business to you if you like. If you want what I know you want, it does not come free or cheap. The All-Mountain 5 is a great deal and you know it! Less crowds and great conditions. We really should charge more for week days! If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!

Freedom of speech is great! Uninformed rantings are dangerous!

Like it or not that is how I view things!

:shock: OUCH!

Sugarboarder,

I totally sympathize with you! Still banging my head about ME closing 4/1!

As much as I used to love it here - we also have FREEDOM of MOVEMENT! Sometimes it's just time to go. Some of the best times and discoveries of my life have been when I get tired of a certain place and take to the road. No plans yet, but I'm thinking about it. I really do feel that freedom of speech isn't freedom of speech if people just always say nice things and espouse platitudes that don't ever rock the boat, and don't challenge the status quo. Not my style. I fail to see what is "dangerous" about it, but that is freedom of speech as well - it's a beautiful thing. 8)

Tin Woodsman
03-20-2007, 11:25 PM
I can still get vouchers via one of the members of the CT Ski Council for what will likely be $42-44/day next year.


Tin, I hope the members of the CT ski council do not sell tickets to non-members. This is a clear violation of council rules and I fear that this great program could disappear because it might get widely abused. I am not accusing anyone, but I would suggest that becoming a member is the way to go - if you do not buy a pass.

I pay only $50 to join for my entire family. I currently live in Vermont but maintain my good standing with the club, so I do not think there are any geographic restrictions.

I also like the skiing at Okemo, Stratton & <gasp>K-Town</gasp> once in a while. The club is great for that.

I certainly hope they don't do that either.

It might jeopardize my current membership privilege of getting these tickets.

win
03-21-2007, 06:00 AM
There will still be a College Pass but we announce the price next fall when Students return. History shows that these passes do not sell until next fall. This is a very important group for us. However, this Saturday there is a rail jam in Burlington and there will be a one day early season Spring Price for college students for 07/08. You need to show up there and buy there.

madhavok
03-21-2007, 08:16 AM
There will still be a College Pass but we announce the price next fall when Students return. History shows that these passes do not sell until next fall. This is a very important group for us. However, this Saturday there is a rail jam in Burlington and there will be a one day early season Spring Price for college students for 07/08. You need to show up there and buy there.

How are they an important group? They get season passes cheaper than dirt. I don't see them renting Claybrook or spending big bucks at the mountain on lessons, equipment rentals or food. Typically from my experience college students just rent a flophouse for the weekends with their friends. Ski for next to nothing during the day. Then go home and dine on pizza and massive amounts of beer.

I can only surmise that Sugarbush is thinking they’ll give away the skiing to college students for 4 years (or 5 or 6 depending upon the student) and when they graduate, find a job, and they’ll come back to Sugarbush to spend their hard earned dollars. That’s only my best guess but if I’m on the right track then I’m skeptic. Take someone who has been working for a few years, first you spend your money on the bills, the car loan the mortgage on the house and then you need the vacation time. Even if you are still planning a vacation after all that, not many us will be dropping $737 for 2 nights in a Claybrook suite.


I think the real problem for getting new guests is that less family's go skiing, especially with regards to the middle class. Why? And this not Sugarbush specific. Its cost prohibited today for the middle class to take the whole family skiing. Less people who grow up skiing means the less people who when grown up take their families skiing. And the cycle continues.

madhavok
03-21-2007, 08:56 AM
I’d also like to mention a concept I’ve often thought of regarding season passes for northeast ski areas in general. Could they make more money by lowering the price on season passes?

I don’t know the statistics such as how many guests buy season passes vs. lift tickets, or how many days the average guest skis so I won’t even attempt to put any numbers down. But I think by lowering the price of a season pass to some price point, you could sell many times more season passes. And I doubt your average guest even with a season pass would actually do any more skiing.

MntMan4Bush
03-21-2007, 09:11 AM
MadHavok - To answer your first question about the college pass I think that it seems logical. As you said college kids may not spend a lot on lodging, although I did spend some on beer, and other things, but getting them on the mountain a lot while relatively young might have a strong impact on where they ski when they're older. For instance I went to Norwich and worked at the Wunderbar and skied the Bush, another friend/housemate went to Colby Sawyer (almost the exact same college experience. I know.) and another went to VT Law School in Bethel. All skied the Bush when in college and now it's our favorite go to mountain and when I have kids this is where they'll learn. Maybe it has something to do with familiarity and having a place we grew up with, but SB also does have great terrain and snow so maybe that is also a factor. Who knows.

As for your second thought on lowering the season pass I think it seems like a good idea, but then I look at what happened with ASC and their $300 pass. It may not have had anything to do with the pass itself, but it makes me wonder.

MntMan4Bush
03-21-2007, 09:16 AM
I do have a question though for anyone that might know. On the All Mnt 7 pass it says "special resort savings". Anyone know what that means. Was it in effect this season as well or something new? Do I get a beer discount? 50 cents off a Long Trail is my suggestion and would go a long way. The Bush might loose some money though. :wink:

WWF-VT
03-21-2007, 09:32 AM
I do have a question though for anyone that might know. On the All Mnt 7 pass it says "special resort savings". Anyone know what that means. Was it in effect this season as well or something new? Do I get a beer discount? 50 cents off a Long Trail is my suggestion and would go a long way. The Bush might loose some money though. :wink:

I believe that the "special resort savings" is the coupon booklet that has discounts on lessons, rentals, half-price tuning, resort restaurants savings, etc. You get the coupon booklet at guest services desk.

One advantage of the All Mnt 7 for families is that "Kids Ski & Ride Free All Season! Free equivalent (Mt. Ellen or Lincoln Peak) pass for one child 7-12 with purchase of parent's Adult 7 pass"

03-21-2007, 09:32 AM
I can only surmise that Sugarbush is thinking they’ll give away the skiing to college students for 4 years (or 5 or 6 depending upon the student) and when they graduate, find a job, and they’ll come back to Sugarbush to spend their hard earned dollars. That’s only my best guess but if I’m on the right track then I’m skeptic.

You just answered your own question.

madhavok
03-21-2007, 09:56 AM
I can only surmise that Sugarbush is thinking they’ll give away the skiing to college students for 4 years (or 5 or 6 depending upon the student) and when they graduate, find a job, and they’ll come back to Sugarbush to spend their hard earned dollars. That’s only my best guess but if I’m on the right track then I’m skeptic.

You just answered your own question.

Well like I said, if my best guess is true, i think its a nice concept but I bet it fails to deliver the numbers.

1. I doubt big bucks are being spent at Sugarbush by recent college grads.
2. Anyone who buys a college pass at Sugarbush probably already know how awesome Sugarbush is.
3. Anyone who buys a college pass already is already a skier who is going to ski anyway.

Remember the HSQ issue and how snow quality was a critical issue for some? Well giving away season passes at $299 to college kids who ski every weekend isn't helping that.

Besides if your really interested in a future customer base then you better start before college. Someone who grows up in a family that ski's sugarbush comes back as a grown up with his or her family and skis sugarbush. Only problem is every year it gets harder and harder for the working middle class families to afford skiing as an activity.

But then again i'm not surprised, most ski resorts stopped focusing their attention on "the family" 10 or 15 years ago.

TimKeogh
03-21-2007, 10:33 AM
Madhavok,

I respectfully disagree that Sugarbush does not cater to families, and is getting unaffordable.

When I was living in CT it was the lodging in the valley that was the major expense for a weekend trip.
Even the Sugar Lodge was over $120 a nite...

I have been bringing my kids since they were 3. At age 13 my son is now getting his 1st seasons pass ever, he wants to ski both weekend days. He scoffs at Bolton and won't go, even though all his friends do. We appreciate the terrain that much.
He is looking forward to apply for the "Straight A" student discount when he hits high school.


At $42 a ticket for ski council members, this is a very affordable for a full days activity. It is also something we all do together, and since my kids are teenagers, it is as they say, "priceless".

For example, the Golf Course at Sugarbush is $100 for a weekend round and a seasons pass for even the dumpiest course around here are well over $1000 per season.

When I consider all the labor, capital equipment, power, and insurance to run a ski area - I am actually surprised they can make a profit
when I am only paying $42 for a weekend ticket.

Oh - and the past 2 weekends I used a coupon from the local Entertainment book. Buy 1 get 1 free: $66 for 2 tickets. what a deal !

gone.skiing
03-21-2007, 10:46 AM
Does Sugarbush offer any incentives to existing pass holders to renew passes for next season? It appears that given loyalty of Sugarbush pass holders retention of existing customers is not much of an issue. Is the mountain mostly focused on attracting new customers?

03-21-2007, 10:46 AM
I can only surmise that Sugarbush is thinking they’ll give away the skiing to college students for 4 years (or 5 or 6 depending upon the student) and when they graduate, find a job, and they’ll come back to Sugarbush to spend their hard earned dollars. That’s only my best guess but if I’m on the right track then I’m skeptic.

You just answered your own question.

Well like I said, if my best guess is true, i think its a nice concept but I bet it fails to deliver the numbers.

1. I doubt big bucks are being spent at Sugarbush by recent college grads.
2. Anyone who buys a college pass at Sugarbush probably already know how awesome Sugarbush is.
3. Anyone who buys a college pass already is already a skier who is going to ski anyway.

Remember the HSQ issue and how snow quality was a critical issue for some? Well giving away season passes at $299 to college kids who ski every weekend isn't helping that.

Besides if your really interested in a future customer base then you better start before college. Someone who grows up in a family that ski's sugarbush comes back as a grown up with his or her family and skis sugarbush. Only problem is every year it gets harder and harder for the working middle class families to afford skiing as an activity.

But then again i'm not surprised, most ski resorts stopped focusing their attention on "the family" 10 or 15 years ago.

What do you do for a living, MH? I'm just curious. You seem to think you have all the answers, but your line of thinking is about 180 degrees from good business practices or even common sense sometimes.

Sugarbush does cater to familes and tries to make it affordable. Take the Adult All Mountain-7 pass. With that, "Kids Ski Free! One dependent (ages 12 & under) receives a Youth All Mountain-7 pass for every Adult All Mountain-7 pass purchased." That's a pretty damn good deal. Kids 6 and under get free lift tickets at Sugarbush....all the time.

madhavok
03-21-2007, 11:46 AM
I can only surmise that Sugarbush is thinking they’ll give away the skiing to college students for 4 years (or 5 or 6 depending upon the student) and when they graduate, find a job, and they’ll come back to Sugarbush to spend their hard earned dollars. That’s only my best guess but if I’m on the right track then I’m skeptic.

You just answered your own question.

Well like I said, if my best guess is true, i think its a nice concept but I bet it fails to deliver the numbers.

1. I doubt big bucks are being spent at Sugarbush by recent college grads.
2. Anyone who buys a college pass at Sugarbush probably already know how awesome Sugarbush is.
3. Anyone who buys a college pass already is already a skier who is going to ski anyway.

Remember the HSQ issue and how snow quality was a critical issue for some? Well giving away season passes at $299 to college kids who ski every weekend isn't helping that.

Besides if your really interested in a future customer base then you better start before college. Someone who grows up in a family that ski's sugarbush comes back as a grown up with his or her family and skis sugarbush. Only problem is every year it gets harder and harder for the working middle class families to afford skiing as an activity.

But then again i'm not surprised, most ski resorts stopped focusing their attention on "the family" 10 or 15 years ago.

What do you do for a living, MH? I'm just curious. You seem to think you have all the answers, but your line of thinking is about 180 degrees from good business practices or even common sense sometimes.

Sugarbush does cater to familes and tries to make it affordable. Take the Adult All Mountain-7 pass. With that, "Kids Ski Free! One dependent (ages 12 & under) receives a Youth All Mountain-7 pass for every Adult All Mountain-7 pass purchased." That's a pretty damn good deal. Kids 6 and under get free lift tickets at Sugarbush....all the time.

I wasn't making the point just about Sugarbush, it was directed at Ski areas in general.
Nor was I just talking about the cost of getting on the lift when I said the focus of attention isn’t the family anymore, its much broader than that.

But since season passes was your example of how Sugarbush does cater to the family try this:

I can't afford a season pass at $1000+. Probably a lot of other people can't too, so how are their kids over 6 skiing for free? Actually Mom and Dad are paying $70 for their tickets and the kids (7-18 ) are getting a $5 discount at $65. GREAT. Suppose you want to take your family on a vacation when they’re off from school. Forget about it.

Family of 4
2 room Lodging $3000
4 days skiing - $1080
Lunch? That’s $50 each ski day = $200
Lessons & Equipment rentals - $?
Dinners - $?
Other activities?

Basically your talking an easy 5 or 6 grand for a one-week ski vacation. Middle Class families can't afford it anymore so fewer families go skiing. Less people learn to ski. I don’t have a solution but a week skiing shouldn’t be a once in a lifetime vacation for a family like going to Disney World.

03-21-2007, 12:05 PM
Basically your talking an easy 5 or 6 grand for a one-week ski vacation.

This is just silly. I've officially reached my "no point debating madhavok any more" threshold. :roll:

MntMan4Bush
03-21-2007, 12:28 PM
Well MH and I have disagreed on a lot of things before, but when he adds up the math I understand what he's saying. Perhaps the lodging noted is a bit expensive and money could be saved by sharing a room (I will state right now I don't have kids so I don't speak with authority on how anything like that actually works out) or to try and find cheaper lodging. I think that if you look at it for 7 nights that's $430 a night. I know places go for that much during holiday weeks, but I think there are cheaper places not right on the mountain. Regardless though a more reasonable dollar amount might be $3K for the entire week and as you pointed out that doesn't include meals. Before the Sugarcard and getting a season pass when I used to have to go to the ticket window and buy a day pass it always amazed me when a family came up to buy tickets for the weekend and then add on rentals. I can see MH's point that it does seem expensive. Of course I don't know what a resort or mountain can do because they have to make enough money to run the place efficiently to make it appealing to come in the first place. Perhaps I'll put off having kids a couple more years to further my own skiing enjoyment.

Sugaree
03-21-2007, 12:34 PM
As I said before, I bought a season's pass and got a free one for my 9 year old. My 6 year old skis for free. We will ski 30 days this year. So, for the three of us to ski for the day costs us $30!!! To put it another way, it's about the same as going to the movies. I can't understand how this is even debatable. Lodging, equipment, etc., is a different story. However, I just priced out 5 days at Disney World, and I can tell you, that on a comparison basis, Sugarbush with lodging is affordable.

bullwheel12
03-21-2007, 12:36 PM
Graduated from college in May '06, worked for SB winter '06'-'07...comp pass, won't do that ever again, winter '07-'08...now what....dish out $1000.....ha. I guess it's time to find a wealthy husband...

TimKeogh
03-21-2007, 12:39 PM
As I said before, I bought a season's pass and got a free one for my 9 year old. My 6 year old skis for free. We will ski 30 days this year. So, for the three of us to ski for the day costs us $30!!! To put it another way, it's about the same as going to the movies. I can't understand how this is even debatable. Lodging, equipment, etc., is a different story. However, I just priced out 5 days at Disney World, and I can tell you, that on a comparison basis, Sugarbush with lodging is affordable.

Sugaree, are your a member of Winterset in Newtown?

http://www.wintersetskiclub.org

madhavok
03-21-2007, 12:39 PM
Maybe 430.00 a night is bit expensive and of course there a cheaper ways with double capicity and offsite lodging. Say 330.00/ night for a holiday week for a slope side condo. By the time you add in the 19% tax your still over $2700.

03-21-2007, 12:41 PM
Well MH and I have disagreed on a lot of things before, but when he adds up the math I understand what he's saying. Perhaps the lodging noted is a bit expensive and money could be saved by sharing a room (I will state right now I don't have kids so I don't speak with authority on how anything like that actually works out) or to try and find cheaper lodging. I think that if you look at it for 7 nights that's $430 a night. I know places go for that much during holiday weeks, but I think there are cheaper places not right on the mountain. Regardless though a more reasonable dollar amount might be $3K for the entire week and as you pointed out that doesn't include meals. Before the Sugarcard and getting a season pass when I used to have to go to the ticket window and buy a day pass it always amazed me when a family came up to buy tickets for the weekend and then add on rentals. I can see MH's point that it does seem expensive. Of course I don't know what a resort or mountain can do because they have to make enough money to run the place efficiently to make it appealing to come in the first place. Perhaps I'll put off having kids a couple more years to further my own skiing enjoyment.

You can find cheaper lodging than that. Re: lift tickets - do a few days at Ellen only or MRG. Re: equipment - Most season rentals can be had for $100-$200 for the season. Re: lunch - brown bag it. Re: dinner - cook in a few nights. The point is there are ways to save if on a budget.

The bottom line is yes, skiing is expensive and at some point it comes down to "if ya wanna play, ya gotta pay." Perhaps MH should just take up a new hobby. Skiing is too expensive and the lines at Valley House are too long... :roll:

MntMan4Bush
03-21-2007, 12:45 PM
Sugaree (again for some strange reason I find myself defending the monkey with the gun. How odd :lol: ) "affordable" is different for everyone. I have a season pass and I rent a place up there every year for the whole season with no limits on when I can go up. For me if I look at it as how much it would have cost me per day if I put in 30 or 40 days it becomes a reasonable price. I am\we are fortunate also to have the capitol to pay that up front cost and go often enough to make it worth while. If we only went up 5-10 times a year a season pass may not be so reasonable and then we woudl be paying on a per stay basis. Is Sugarbush unreasonable in my mind. No. I can afford it (Please no one read this as conceited. It's not meant to be). Is it to others? Certainly possible. I can also see it from the mountain's POV because you have to find the mid-point where things are reasonably priced and still able to offer a quality product. Never having run a ski resotr before I have no idea where that is. I can just see how it's expensive to a lot of people as opposed to going to Wa-Wa-Wachuessetts Mnt a couple times during the holiday week might be cheaper if you live in the area or something. Everyone has to admit that the hiking of lodging costs and ticket prices during school holidays when you're promised volume anyway is a bit of a cheek, but something will always cost what the market will bear so what can you do.

madhavok
03-21-2007, 12:52 PM
Well MH and I have disagreed on a lot of things before, but when he adds up the math I understand what he's saying. Perhaps the lodging noted is a bit expensive and money could be saved by sharing a room (I will state right now I don't have kids so I don't speak with authority on how anything like that actually works out) or to try and find cheaper lodging. I think that if you look at it for 7 nights that's $430 a night. I know places go for that much during holiday weeks, but I think there are cheaper places not right on the mountain. Regardless though a more reasonable dollar amount might be $3K for the entire week and as you pointed out that doesn't include meals. Before the Sugarcard and getting a season pass when I used to have to go to the ticket window and buy a day pass it always amazed me when a family came up to buy tickets for the weekend and then add on rentals. I can see MH's point that it does seem expensive. Of course I don't know what a resort or mountain can do because they have to make enough money to run the place efficiently to make it appealing to come in the first place. Perhaps I'll put off having kids a couple more years to further my own skiing enjoyment.

You can find cheaper lodging than that. Re: lift tickets - do a few days at Ellen only or MRG. Re: equipment - Most season rentals can be had for $100-$200 for the season. Re: lunch - brown bag it. Re: dinner - cook in a few nights. The point is there are ways to save if on a budget.

The bottom line is yes, skiing is expensive and at some point it comes down to "if ya wanna play, ya gotta pay." Perhaps MH should just take up a new hobby. Skiing is too expensive and the lines at Valley House are too long... :roll:

I'd ski Ellen only a few days but I heard the snow quality is horrid over there because of the 2 high speed quads and 1 fixed quad that access the same terrain. :roll: :roll:

03-21-2007, 12:56 PM
I'd ski Ellen only a few days but I heard the snow quality is horrid over there because of the 2 high speed quads and 1 fixed quad that access the same terrain. :roll: :roll:

Nice try. Comparing GMX and NRX to Bravo and an HSQ up VH is a major stretch...

sugarboarder
03-21-2007, 01:08 PM
I'm just happy there is someone to take the focus off my dangerous uninformed rantings!! :D

That being said, I apologize to Win, AGAIN, for not being more diplomatic with my post about the pass pricing. I am the consumer, and I do view a 27% increase in my pass price in one year as outrageous, but the comments about "value added" and Clay Brook were out of line and not needed to support my argument. Anyone who knows me here, or personally, by now knows that I end up apologizing a lot. I am passionate about my sports, and an emotional person - gets me into trouble sometimes. Some like it, some don't - Ces't la vie. If I were Russian 30 years ago I probably would have been executed post haste. :shock:

I do wish to defend a few things that people may think about me - and do a little tooting of my own horn. I am neither cheap, nor looking for a handout for no return. I compete on a national level in three sports - sailing, marathon kayaking, and alpine snowboarding. I pay for it all myself through my own hard work. I don't have a coach or equipment sponsors. I travel all over New England in winter and the eastern US in summer competing. I spend well over $8000 a season on snowboard competition, and over $12,000 a season on kayak racing. And that is using equipment that is largely hand-me-down that was state-of-the-art 3-4 years ago. In the last four years have finished 25th nationally in two different one-design sailboat classes. I won a Silver medal in an open class at the 2006 USCA National Marathon Kayak Championships, after finishing fourth, 49 seconds out of Bronze position, the year before. I finished fourth in alpine events in the 40-49 division at the 2006 USASA Snowboard Nationals, again barely off the podium - and this year I am ranked first in SL and second in GS in National points going into the 2007 USASA Nationals at Northstar-at-Tahoe the first week of April. I recently competed in a USSA/FIS NorAm at Bromley and got 36th out of 47 competitors in both PSL and PGS, scoring FIS points and acquiring a national and world points ranking (such as they are) - I was the oldest competitor by 7 years and twice the age of most of them. I am extremely proud of all this, and without going into detail and looking like I want sympathy, I have overcome several HUGE personal obstacles to do all this, which I do not talk about or use to justify poor results. I am trying to attract sponsors, and recently have acquired some (very) minor ones, both corporate and private. But then again, the results have only recently started to build up and improve. I talk up Sugarbush everywhere I go even without any direct support from them - or in an attempt to acquire said support. I buy a weekday pass only because it makes no sense to buy a 7 day when I am away practically every weekend during the season competing, and spending a ton of $$, elsewhere. My training opportunities locally, with the exception of a few NASTAR Fridays, are nil. That is why I get so upset when the NASTAR course is closed to the public at the last minute so often - and no option is given on Racer's Edge, as I was so often told last year would happen, if we only had the snow cover. This year we DO have the cover and yet still no secondary course is set 95% of the time. I am a paying customer - I am not looking for these things for free. GMVS, bless their hearts, has let me, a snowboarder, train with them from time to time, and Mr. Steve Utter has even thrown some pointers my way, for which I am eternally grateful. If I wasn't racing nationally, I'd spend more money at Sugarbush, but with only 20-25 days on the hill here, and 30+ days elsewhere, without a pass in those other places, I cannot justify it.

I am no Doug Lewis or John Egan, far from it, but I am successful in my realm none the less, and I have been proud to say I am from this area. I just wish there was more support, on any level and not even monetary, for what I am doing. I like to think I could be an asset, not a PITA who is getting weekday riding for a song. There is an old business saying that if one person writes a letter to management about a problem, there are 100 others who feel the same way but don't bother writing. Now the internet has changed all that, and it is far easier, and way too public, to post such things in a forum like this - and the number of people feeling the same is probably not 100 to 1 any more, but I do not believe I am alone, and even though I approach it the wrong way sometimes, I am sure there are others with the same outlook. I guess I think they are here on skimrv, but most often they are not - our sports are too opposed here, no matter what some think or say...a comment that "we know a snowboarder but he is OK" or "we make fun of him but we like him" or "he is actually good at riding and can keep up" is not too much different than saying "we like X group of people, we even have one who is a friend...because he is more like us than the rest". That's how it feels to me most times anyway, all are of course entitled to their opinion. 8)

I guess you could say, in the spirit of Eddie Murphy's line in "48 Hours" - "I'm your worst nightmare - a snowboarder with a brain"! :lol:

To those who have pointed it out - you are right - something in me does enjoy being the "renegade", the wolf in the sheep's pen, but really I wish it wasn't that way...it doesn't feel like that in a lot of other places. But I guess as I said above - Ces't la vie. :)

PS - If anyone is interested in a 45 year old athlete overcoming obstacles and having National sucess in three sports, or knows someone who is, I have a full color PDF sponsorship proposal with photos, which includes a financial plan and accounting, results, benefits to the sponsor, and resume and personal goal statement. I'd of course be happy to send it along. Thanks. :)

madhavok
03-21-2007, 01:08 PM
On a side note,

When Sugarboarder was complaining about the 30% hike for his season pass it reminded me of being at work. In March every year they jack the payroll deductions for my health insurance up like 30% and everyone gets up in arms and walks around bitching & moaning.

sugarboarder
03-21-2007, 01:11 PM
On a side note,

When Sugarboarder was complaining about the 30% hike for his season pass it reminded me of being at work. In March every year they jack the payroll deductions for my health insurance up like 30% and everyone gets up in arms and walks around bitching & moaning.

Chimpanzees are more prone to diseases (diet?) than humans...costs more to keep the insurance up. :P

Sugaree
03-21-2007, 01:12 PM
As I said before, I bought a season's pass and got a free one for my 9 year old. My 6 year old skis for free. We will ski 30 days this year. So, for the three of us to ski for the day costs us $30!!! To put it another way, it's about the same as going to the movies. I can't understand how this is even debatable. Lodging, equipment, etc., is a different story. However, I just priced out 5 days at Disney World, and I can tell you, that on a comparison basis, Sugarbush with lodging is affordable.

Sugaree, are your a member of Winterset in Newtown?

http://www.wintersetskiclub.org

No. It is more affordable for us to go the season's pass route. I agree with MtnMan's comments. We rent for the season as well.

MntMan4Bush
03-21-2007, 01:17 PM
If I were Russian 30 years ago I probably would have been executed post haste. :shock:


It is always the tallest blade of grass that is first to be swept by the sickle. :wink:

sugarboarder
03-21-2007, 01:25 PM
Yeah, but the view is TREMENDOUS before that...most don't ever get to see it! :wink:

HowieT2
03-21-2007, 02:39 PM
Isn't it par for the course for consumers to complain about pricing. I don't think SB prices are more than it's competitors. For my son and I to ski all season for $900 is a pretty good deal.

As for lodging, again, I don't think the rates in the MRV are any worse than other NE ski areas. My family has been going to the beach in the summers and the rentals are comparably priced. The most efficient way to do it, is to share a house/condo with another family. We did this for 2 president's weeks at SB on mountain for less than $2,000 a week.

Fill up for the Subaru $50 (don't ask about the Expedition)
Yankee Tickets $75
Crappy movie $11
This past sunday at SB ....Priceless

MntMan4Bush
03-21-2007, 02:54 PM
Yankee tickets?????? Yankee tickets = Yankee Fan. Well that explains a lot! :lol:

Just kidding. Just kidding. I don't want to turn this into a Red Sox vs Yankee forum. I just couldn't resist. Just couldn't. Fortunately we both made a good decision in the Bush so we can settle on common ground with a Long Trail.

HowieT2
03-21-2007, 03:35 PM
Yankee tickets?????? Yankee tickets = Yankee Fan. Well that explains a lot! :lol:

Just kidding. Just kidding. I don't want to turn this into a Red Sox vs Yankee forum. I just couldn't resist. Just couldn't. Fortunately we both made a good decision in the Bush so we can settle on common ground with a Long Trail.

No offense taken. In fact, I have a very good friend who is a sox fan who I took to a number of games at the Stadium, until the Sox won one. He's from Boston but lives near me now and I am going to try to get him into SB. Seriously, I should get extra credit for making the longer trip to the 'bush.

MntMan4Bush
03-21-2007, 03:39 PM
Agreed. We have friends in our ski house who grew up in Boston and moved to Manhatten. I have no idea how they do the drive. I know why, but I don't know how. I'd go crazy, but when you get there it's definitely worth it.

HowieT2
03-21-2007, 03:47 PM
Agreed. We have friends in our ski house who grew up in Boston and moved to Manhatten. I have no idea how they do the drive. I know why, but I don't know how. I'd go crazy, but when you get there it's definitely worth it.

I live in upper Westchester and make it up to SB consistently in 4 hours. This past Friday it took me 5. I don't know if I could get my wife to do the drive from NYC.

Yard Sale
03-21-2007, 04:25 PM
No one likes an increase, but as said earlier in this thread: If you want to play, you have to pay. So, I pay. Yes it is a pretty good deal with the free pass for under 12, and all kids under 6, but that is not generosity, that is an investment in the long run future. Further, the reduced fee for the college pass just is a perpetuation of that investment in the long run future. Make no mistake; skiing is becoming less affordable to families. Not to discount the cost cutting strategies presented here, they're all good, but it is just a fact. All costs are rising. It's not just the season pass. It's the gas. It's the gear. (Not to mention Blazers.) It's all of the costs incorporated into the whole endeavor. I'm confident Summit Ventures is aware of this fact. That doesn't make the SB or the ski industry evil or greedy. It is just the way the market has evolved. I pay because I love the skiing and in particular the Sugarbush product that is why we bought here. For me and my family thus far, the non monetary return is in balance with the monetary expense. And luckily we can afford it (at least for now) Daughter #4 is due in July. If I'm not screwing myself out of skiing, I'm skiing myself out of screwing. Either way I'm screwed! :shock: The point is that we all make a choice as to where to plunk our dime down. For me and mine, if the delicate balance shifts to our disadvantage, we'll have to reinvest our dime in another endeavor. Voicing your dissatisfaction here is certainly valid. However, to imply that Sugarbush is increasing prices irresponsibly or in any manner gouging seems at best far fetched and IMHO irresponsible. (BTW Sugarborder I am glad you're back. :wink: ) I think ownership has proven time and time again that this venture is about more than the bottom line. If it weren't, then I'm fairly confident that the Summit Venture boys have the means and access to far more profitable investments with far less risk. All that said, for those of us that are already hooked, some form relief like frequent flyer miles for current/returning pass holders and multiple program participants would be a nice gesture and an investment in the short run future of all the different revenue streams: concessions, lodging, retail ect. Usually there is no compassion for the already hooked, but these SV guys continue to surprise and impress. Maybe this is one of those times.

random_ski_guy
03-21-2007, 06:25 PM
Yard Sale, you make alot of excellent points.

30% hike is steep year over year, but I think SV has proven that the $ is going back into the mtn in a big way. Just remember how they made all that snow in January and Feb. I don't think ASC would have done the same.

Also, how does Sugarbush compare with other mtns of its caliber? I think they are generally in line, but I admit I'm too lazy this evening to look up the facts.

asland
03-21-2007, 06:56 PM
but the comments about "value added" and Clay Brook were out of line and not needed to support my argument.

I'm joining the conversation late but am not sure what you're aplogizing about. With the exception of the half pipe (honestly, I could care less) you wrapped my thoughts up completely.

I also talk up sugarbush everywhere I go but that does not mean I have to blindly follow and agree with everything they do. One of the problems I find with this board is that everyone is supporting everyone elses ideas. Yes men! No dissent. very little disagreement. Reminds me of the Bush Administration and look how poular they are. I don't want the same thing to happen to sugarbush.

Rantings sometimes are needed to get out opposing ideas and they will lead to a better mountain. So, If you felt you were to hot than I'm glad you aplogized but I also hope that win has apologized to you. His comments about "Uninformed rantings are dangerous!" were way more offensive to me than anything you said.

asland

win
03-21-2007, 07:37 PM
Fair point, Asland

TimKeogh
03-21-2007, 08:22 PM
Yard Sale, you make alot of excellent points.

30% hike is steep year over year, but I think SV has proven that the $ is going back into the mtn in a big way. Just remember how they made all that snow in January and Feb. I don't think ASC would have done the same.

Also, how does Sugarbush compare with other mtns of its caliber? I think they are generally in line, but I admit I'm too lazy this evening to look up the facts.

OMFG.
There is hardly a valid comparison in VT.
Stowe's prices are astronomical and they do not discount - ever.
Okemo and Killington are close in price, but are so overcrowded on weekends the ole' CPR (cost per run) cannot match SB.
That leaves Stratton & Mt Snow - ditto on the crowds, and their prices are higher.

Only Jay - IMHO - comes close in price and terrain. Price is actually lower. But it is a really long haul unless you live here or in CA.

(unfairly, I excluded MRG and Smuggs because I cannot stand obsolete lift technology)

Strat
03-21-2007, 08:43 PM
Well, uh, I get a free pass for getting straight A's...

*Hehehe*...

:lol:

freeheel_skier
03-21-2007, 10:24 PM
On a side note,

When Sugarboarder was complaining about the 30% hike for his season pass it reminded me of being at work. In March every year they jack the payroll deductions for my health insurance up like 30% and everyone gets up in arms and walks around bitching & moaning.

Chimpanzees are more prone to diseases (diet?) than humans...costs more to keep the insurance up. :P

:lol: :lol: :lol: LMAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

smootharc
03-22-2007, 08:08 AM
Well, uh, I get a free pass for getting straight A's...

*Hehehe*...

:lol:

...I go back to school and get an advanced degree in Skiology if I'll get a free pass, too ? Oh, yeah....it's the straight A thing that might be a problem. Me and my beloved C's were, uh, um, tight in college. And if you wanted an A, you had to battle your way through the B's to get there. All for a grade designation that looks like an A-frame with no snow on it's roof. Useless !

So....ON PURPOSE....I got my C's because they look like a sweetly carved pow turn. A superior grade designation if I ever saw one. So get your priorities straight, kid, or you'll never be able to turn out like me and Bluto over there !

Beer pong, anyone ? It's 9am.....

:lol:

MntMan4Bush
03-22-2007, 08:21 AM
I like the idea of the frequent skier discount for season passes. What about my 50 cents off a Long Trail with a badge. Or how about frequent skier miles for real? I use my pass that's hooked to my credit card for all my purchases at the Bush. Perhaps you get Y miles for each dollar spent to include the pass itself. Maybe X miles could get you a stick of wax or a free beer or slice of pizza or maybe even a lift ticket or discount for next seasons pass or something. Even people that use the Sugarcard could benefit. Come on man we could revelutionize the industry and start something!!! Who's with me!!!! Man I've had too much coffee this morning.

By the way good to have you back Sugarboarder. I knew you couldn't live without the harrassment. You're a glutton for punishment. :P Welcome back!

Yard Sale
03-22-2007, 09:01 AM
By the way good to have you back Sugarboarder. I knew you couldn't live without the harrassment. You're a glutton for punishment. :P Welcome back!

Yes, and who else could have so quickly diagnosed the cute little monkey's questionable diet as the source of chronic health issues?

jwt
03-22-2007, 12:00 PM
Got to add my .02 here. . . . . if you really want to ski, and have the choices we have here in NE, while I don't like increases any more than the next guy, I love the fact that we can take our skis and go home ( or to another more affordable?) mountain.
I have 4 kids, all of who have skied here since 2.5 or 3. All free til 7 years old. Few if any mountains do than. Then you have the bed scene in the valley. . .way less than K-Mart and Stowe. . . .so capacity is never an issue. . . . . .as WIn pointed out 9000 (a record) on Feb vaca. Sat? would have been spread out if it had not been for high winds. . . . .

even then, we got the runs that took us off the hill before they stopped ( guess it really is how hard you pound on those runs, not how many)

I have run a ski house here for years, got 11 members, who bring up COUNTLESS guests who then becoe true believers. . . . .once you drive a BMW or Benz or ski here, you at least understand why they charge more, even if you don't drive them . .I don't , still driving those Saabs. . .GM ruined and all. . . . . . but this is why folks get so upset with 27% increases. . . . . . they DON'T want to ski anywhere else. . .they want here. . . . . . . who can argue with that? But in the end they will pay the difference. That's my guess.

The market will let Win and SV know if they go too far. . .and they will adjust if need be. . . . . .. . . . . as far as cost per weekend or family? Only way I can get everyone to ski is spend the $1000 on the ski house membership, buy a pass, and another $200 for my teen, and $2200 later, I ski for as long and as many times as I want, . . . . .20,25 days. . . . . . . . . we end up paying what , $100 - $200 a weekend plus gas? ( you eat whether you are here or at home). . ... not bad.

We make sacrifices. . . .we don't do Disney every other year or resort-type vacations that cost $5000 a week+ We spend that over a 5 month peroid and go climbing and camping in the summer. . . . . . . . it is all about how bad you want to ski! Isn't that America? How much do you want something? It determines how much you will spend.

The only issue I see is 3-4 times a year people. . . . . . .and that is supposed to be some kind of avergae for skiers over all. . . . . . .. hard to make a good impression when the weather or power fails! Doh! Same with a visit to the Carribean in August-Oct, right?

sugarboarder
03-22-2007, 12:51 PM
. . . but this is why folks get so upset with 27% increases. . . . . . they DON'T want to ski anywhere else. . .they want here. . . . . . . who can argue with that? But in the end they will pay the difference. That's my guess.

Don't bet on it. :roll:

asland
03-22-2007, 12:53 PM
let's put this into persepective

Sugarbush - Adult All-Mountain 7 - $949 (07/08 price- could not find 06/07 price anymore)
vs.
Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Heavenly, and Arapahoe Basin The Big Snow All Access 5-Resort Pass gives you 7 days of unrestricted lift access at during the 06/07 season. - $439

What gives?

I'm not an economist and I'm not sure what business model the western resorts are using but it seems to be- let's get more people out skiing and we'll make more money. Eastern resorts, including sugarbush, seem to be pushing the little man, his, family, and most of his friends out of the market. Skiing is my family's priority (period). Yet, we still find it hard to make these prices. It's crazy!

asland

random_ski_guy
03-22-2007, 12:57 PM
What gives; those mtns can subsidize their local skiers with the deep pockets of the out of town destination ski. Plus, these mtns are entranched in a pricing war...while with the death of ASC on the east coast, it appears our pass war has ended...for the moment.

sucks for us.

madhavok
03-22-2007, 01:17 PM
let's put this into persepective

Sugarbush - Adult All-Mountain 7 - $949 (07/08 price- could not find 06/07 price anymore)
vs.
Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Heavenly, and Arapahoe Basin The Big Snow All Access 5-Resort Pass gives you 7 days of unrestricted lift access at during the 06/07 season. - $439

What gives?

I'm not an economist and I'm not sure what business model the western resorts are using but it seems to be- let's get more people out skiing and we'll make more money. Eastern resorts, including sugarbush, seem to be pushing the little man, his, family, and most of his friends out of the market. Skiing is my family's priority (period). Yet, we still find it hard to make these prices. It's crazy!

asland

Thats what I was trying to say.

castlerock
03-22-2007, 03:12 PM
let's put this into persepective

Sugarbush - Adult All-Mountain 7 - $949 (07/08 price- could not find 06/07 price anymore)
vs.
Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Heavenly, and Arapahoe Basin The Big Snow All Access 5-Resort Pass gives you 7 days of unrestricted lift access at during the 06/07 season. - $439


You and Mad Havoc have to lay off the booze.

From Vail's web site today:

Adult Full Pass Valid for unlimited access to Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone and Arapahoe Basin $1,799
($439 gets you 7 tickets......)


$1799 vs 949 (plus a free kid) what gives?

MntMan4Bush
03-22-2007, 03:25 PM
The $439 was only for 7 days (not 7 days a week) of skiing at either mountain. CR's price is correct. Now I've never skied Colorado, but in Utah I would equate Brighton as a mountain comparable to Sugarbush. It seems to have he same feel and great terrain in my mind. Season passes for all access go for $975 out there. SB seems in line with the west. Make no mistake though that if I could pay less I'd rather do that. 8)

madhavok
03-22-2007, 03:29 PM
let's put this into persepective

Sugarbush - Adult All-Mountain 7 - $949 (07/08 price- could not find 06/07 price anymore)
vs.
Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Heavenly, and Arapahoe Basin The Big Snow All Access 5-Resort Pass gives you 7 days of unrestricted lift access at during the 06/07 season. - $439


You and Mad Havoc have to lay off the booze.

From Vail's web site today:

Adult Full Pass Valid for unlimited access to Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone and Arapahoe Basin $1,799
($439 gets you 7 tickets......)


$1799 vs 949 (plus a free kid) what gives?

No dude I was agreeing how hard it is getting to take your family skiing, and every year it gets worse.

One question though, is there a family discount for season passes? Say first adult cost this much, second is a little cheaper. Like suppose you don't have kids yet, or they are over 12.??

castlerock
03-22-2007, 03:46 PM
No dude I was agreeing how hard it is getting to take your family skiing, and every year it gets worse.

One question though, is there a family discount for season passes? Say first adult cost this much, second is a little cheaper. Like suppose you don't have kids yet, or they are over 12.??

It is harder every year. However, the post read that you agreed with asland, that Vail was cheaper.

And as for kids I have 3, all under 10. All the equipment is hand me down. Bag all our lunches, Eat in at night all the time (except for the Smokehouse, which is good food and family friendly). We don't go to Disney, or frankly anywhere else for that matter.

asland
03-22-2007, 04:48 PM
l
Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Heavenly, and Arapahoe Basin The Big Snow All Access 5-Resort Pass gives you 7 days of unrestricted lift access at during the 06/07 season. - $439


oops, sorry for my mistake. I was being to quick and misread the site for the above pass pricing. This pass I mentioned above is indeed for only 7 days skiing.

So, I called my friend in denver to make sure I go my story correct this time:

he said that if you bought your pass before November for this past season at REI or Christy Sports you could get $369 to ski Keystone, Breckenridge and A-Basin unlimited skiing during the year. He paid $30 more ($399) and he got the previous pass plus 10 days at Vail or Beaver Creek.

$399 vs. $949 - what gives?


asland

Treeskier
03-22-2007, 04:51 PM
Just got emailed next years prices for seasonal programs. While I think the increase of season passes are in line the seasonal programs have in my mind gone through the roof. For example Blazers program bought before 9/20 was $750.00 now you have to buy it before 5/3 and it is now $860 and ($950 if purchased between 5/4 and 9/19) Teen X was $525. now $640 ($700. if purchased between 5/4 and 9/19). and Womans turns was $525 and now $640 ($700 if purchased between 5/4 and 9/19) Which is a ~22% increase. Not mention that you now have to pay for it up front. As a family provider and taxes just paid this is going to be hard if not imposible. At least in the past you could pay for the pass just after paying taxes then pay for the seasonal programs in the fall after you have filled your coffers. Please re-consider the pricing and timing of payment.

Sugarbush Seasonal Programs Before 5/3/2007 Before 9/19/07 9/20 - 11/02/2007 11/02/2007 -
Mini-Blazers $640 $700 $820 $859
Blazers $860 $950 $1,099 $1,559
Adventure Blazers $900 $1,050 $1,199 $1,279
Mountain Teen Extreme $640 $700 $820 $859
Women's Turn Club $640 $700 $820 $859
Black Diamond Club $640 $700 $820 $859
Bush Pilots $600 $800 $940 $979
Free-Riders $960 $1,100 $1,299 $1,349
Diamond Dogs $1,100 $1,200 $1,399 $1,459

Ouch!! Please re-consider the pricing and timing of payment.

sugarboarder
03-22-2007, 04:53 PM
Just to compare another angle - and what you get for your money.

***********************************

I bought an "AllMtn 5" pass this year at Sugarbush for $549. This year it will be $699. (about a +27% increase)
Blackout dates are Christmas Week, MLK Weekend, Presidents' Week. That's it. No cross-country, no discounts, no free use of the race course (course open Wed.-Sun. at Stowe / Friday thru Sunday at SB...that's IF it isn't being used for something else.)

***********************************

A "StoweFive" Pass for next year is $740.

This pass is valid every day of the season except: All Saturdays & Sundays, and 12/25/06 through and including 1/1/07, and 2/19/07. NO PRESIDENT'S WEEK OR MLK WEEKEND BLACKOUTS!

5 Day Pass benefits include the following:

Cross-Country Season Pass.
20% discount at Stowe Mountain Resort Retail Shops (non-sale items only).
20% discount on full tune-up at Stowe Mountain Resort Rental Shops.
10% discount at the Cliff House Restaurant and Fireside Tavern (food only).
Free use of Exhibition Hill race course (Open Wed-Sun).
Children receive a 25% discount on full day ski or snowboard Adventure Center school on the days the pass is valid.
20% OFF Private Lessons Valid Mon-Fri/Non-Holiday Periods. Reservations Required.

Add in the fact that the lodges are MUCH bigger and MUCH nicer than Sugarbush, the mountain is bigger (111 trails here is an ASC-inspired joke - it's more like 50 - Stowe is listed as a truthful 44) and the terrain is equal IMO, there is a gondi for cold days, and a transfer gondi between the mountains that runs EVERY day (we have the SBX chair - but it NEVER runs weekdays - weekday pass holders must take the bus). Former US Snowboard Team coach Bud Keene is in residence there too - and the overall level of racing is better too. No offense Lew/Kelly and GMVS - I'm talking general public here, I know you guys are the best!

Oh yeah - and they have a REAL halfpipe which isn't considered an "eyesore".

Sp where is the best value? (Rhetorical question) IF I do stay in VT next year, I know where my pass will be for the $40 extra...even WITH the extra gas (there goes my "carbon offset" - boo hoo :cry: ).

This brings me back to what I was trying to say in my original post about my pass price going up so much - I wouldn't mind if I thought I was getting some sort of even semi-proportional increase in the value of having it, but I don't see it.

sugarboarder
03-22-2007, 05:02 PM
Just got emailed next years prices for seasonal programs....

Ouch!! Please re-consider the pricing and timing of payment.

OK - I know some people won't like this, and I am probably PARTLY wrong, but there is an obvious elephant in the room here. Clay Brook goes up - the next year everything else does - way more than ever before - and no extra benefits come with the price increases - so we are obviously at least in part paying for the new building(s). I understand that and it's OK, business is business - but I don't have to like it and as pointed out elsewhere in this thread there are plenty of other ski areas - and they don't ALL stink.

I'm actually glad Sugarbush is getting a makeover of sorts. It has been nice to ski/ride here the past 17 years, but on those days when nobody was around I always wondered if next time I showed up there would be a big CLOSED sign. This place has historically NOT been a profit center. So next year I'll say good luck, but good bye. The great thing about new places is partly new people...lots of interesting folks everywhere I go racing (and here too of course) and sure to the same in a new place. 8)

Tin Woodsman
03-22-2007, 05:24 PM
Just got emailed next years prices for seasonal programs....

Ouch!! Please re-consider the pricing and timing of payment.

OK - I know some people won't like this, and I am probably PARTLY wrong, but there is an obvious elephant in the room here. Clay Brook goes up - the next year everything else does - way more than ever before - and no extra benefits come with the price increases - so we are obviously at least in part paying for the new building(s). I understand that and it's OK, business is business - but I don't have to like it and as pointed out elsewhere in this thread there are plenty of other ski areas - and they don't ALL stink.

I'm actually glad Sugarbush is getting a makeover of sorts. It has been nice to ski/ride here the past 17 years, but on those days when nobody was around I always wondered if next time I showed up there would be a big CLOSED sign. This place has historically NOT been a profit center. So next year I'll say good luck, but good bye. The great thing about new places is partly new people...lots of interesting folks everywhere I go racing (and here too of course) and sure to the same in a new place. 8)

I don't think it's a coincidence at all. Clay Brook should pay for itself. Not so the new GH Lodge and Guest Services Bldg. With these significant price increases (I'm expecting another 5-10% increase on my CT Ski council passes), SV better get that damn new building right, unlike GH this year. If it's a clusterf*ck at lunch and for apres again, what the heck kind of value is that? Remember, no Valley House lodge safety valve next year.

My disappointment is only somewhat alleviated by the knowledge that skiing always has been and always will be an expensive sport. People have been bitching about lift ticket prices for as long as their have been lifts. Still, it would be nice to retain some semblance of affordability.

Mike_451
03-22-2007, 06:42 PM
Just got emailed next years prices for seasonal programs....

Ouch!! Please re-consider the pricing and timing of payment.

OK - I know some people won't like this, and I am probably PARTLY wrong, but there is an obvious elephant in the room here. Clay Brook goes up - the next year everything else does - way more than ever before - and no extra benefits come with the price increases - so we are obviously at least in part paying for the new building(s). I understand that and it's OK, business is business - but I don't have to like it and as pointed out elsewhere in this thread there are plenty of other ski areas - and they don't ALL stink.

I'm actually glad Sugarbush is getting a makeover of sorts. It has been nice to ski/ride here the past 17 years, but on those days when nobody was around I always wondered if next time I showed up there would be a big CLOSED sign. This place has historically NOT been a profit center. So next year I'll say good luck, but good bye. The great thing about new places is partly new people...lots of interesting folks everywhere I go racing (and here too of course) and sure to the same in a new place. 8)

I don't think it's a coincidence at all. Clay Brook should pay for itself. Not so the new GH Lodge and Guest Services Bldg. With these significant price increases (I'm expecting another 5-10% increase on my CT Ski council passes), SV better get that damn new building right, unlike GH this year. If it's a clusterf*ck at lunch and for apres again, what the heck kind of value is that? Remember, no Valley House lodge safety valve next year.

My disappointment is only somewhat alleviated by the knowledge that skiing always has been and always will be an expensive sport. People have been bitching about lift ticket prices for as long as their have been lifts. Still, it would be nice to retain some semblance of affordability.


One Word, Glen Ellen 8)

sugarboarder
03-22-2007, 07:41 PM
Just got emailed next years prices for seasonal programs....

Ouch!! Please re-consider the pricing and timing of payment.

OK - I know some people won't like this, and I am probably PARTLY wrong, but there is an obvious elephant in the room here. Clay Brook goes up - the next year everything else does - way more than ever before - and no extra benefits come with the price increases - so we are obviously at least in part paying for the new building(s). I understand that and it's OK, business is business - but I don't have to like it and as pointed out elsewhere in this thread there are plenty of other ski areas - and they don't ALL stink.

I'm actually glad Sugarbush is getting a makeover of sorts. It has been nice to ski/ride here the past 17 years, but on those days when nobody was around I always wondered if next time I showed up there would be a big CLOSED sign. This place has historically NOT been a profit center. So next year I'll say good luck, but good bye. The great thing about new places is partly new people...lots of interesting folks everywhere I go racing (and here too of course) and sure to the same in a new place. 8)

I don't think it's a coincidence at all. Clay Brook should pay for itself. Not so the new GH Lodge and Guest Services Bldg. With these significant price increases (I'm expecting another 5-10% increase on my CT Ski council passes), SV better get that damn new building right, unlike GH this year. If it's a clusterf*ck at lunch and for apres again, what the heck kind of value is that? Remember, no Valley House lodge safety valve next year.

My disappointment is only somewhat alleviated by the knowledge that skiing always has been and always will be an expensive sport. People have been bitching about lift ticket prices for as long as their have been lifts. Still, it would be nice to retain some semblance of affordability.


One Word, Glen Ellen 8)

Thatz two words, but too bad somebody can't buy it and turn it back into Glen Ellen..."Stowe" is one word. :wink:

win
03-22-2007, 07:42 PM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

sugarboarder
03-22-2007, 08:11 PM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Good idea, really. Probably not a good idea for ANY business owner to go on a forum like this and try to defend the comments that the public types in, sometimes off hand, sometimes when tired or angry at something else entirely...probably not agood idea to even READ it unless you can take it all with a grain of salt, take the comments that are useful and ignore the rest. It's just going to be frustrating to all parties involved. And when so many forum members know that owner personally and see them on a regular basis, it is bound to cause bad blood eventually. It is an admirable idea to be "in the mix" here, and goes with the nature of this owner to be "in the mix" on property which is great...I'm just not so sure it is a GOOD idea.

This isn't an edited and published finished product - it's like a bunch of people all talking at once in a room (who may or may not be having a beer), but without the personal filters and responsibility we would have if we were all face to face. Something about that aspect bugs me, but quite obviously at the same time it's fun to comment, vent, make fun of those who desrve it, laugh, pontificate and so on.

IMO - this should be a PUBLIC forum where anyone can say whatever they want within the rules. Not all reviews of everything will be good of course, you know that. But that is how the internet has changed business. Product reviews written by the public are available on almost every shopping site - and they run the gamut. Certainly the manufacturers and business owners are not posting rebuttals and/or comments about these reviews, nor should they be. The reviews are meant to be read by the consuming public, if they WANT to, which they can then dismiss or believe. It's useful to the consumer, and if the product is good, the majority of reviews will reveal that, and it will likely show up in the business' bottom line.

In defense of myself - (WARNING - negative commentary alert!!) I cannot swallow the comment "the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team"...please. A FEW SMALL things MAYBE, and really only when I have had to say, "look I paid for this and this is what I expect". Pleasing a paying customer who is not satisfied with the product does not mean said customer no longer has the right to speak up ever again. I'd like to see a list of these "extra things" above what we pay for. Snowboard start poles at the NASTAR course? I paid for and installed those myself. Additional race training? Provided by GMVS. Letting me on the NASTAR course while a group is using it? Only because nobody told the poor race crew that the grouip was coming and by that time we had already showed up there on the race crew's promise the course would be open. The excuse last year that the only reason the Racer's Edge NASTAR wasn't available when groups were using the Spring Fling course was that there was not enough snow on Racer's Edge - this year, plenty of snow and still no course there...so that was just a smoke screen. Matt having no help setting up the course? who offered to help FOR FREE - that's right, me. I just don't want to hear it. :x :x :x

Are we supposed to "put up and shut up" because we bought a pass instead of a ticket? Pass holders are usually an area's bread and butter and go around telling all the ticket-buying folks how great it is here.

aejkb
03-22-2007, 08:28 PM
It's too bad that Win got upset and left the message board. I think that the posts are like brain storming, or town meetings;lots of really dopey stuff with the occasional bright idea. Just about everyone who posts here loves Sugarbush.I think most people appreciate that Summit Ventures are passionate and engaged owners.But just about everyone has opinions and ideas about what can make it better. Griping about the cost is something most people do naturally. Paying more for something is fine if there is value. I used to go to Bruins games and enjoyed the old Garden with all its noise and shabbiness. Then they built this new sterile building, raised the ticket and concession prices to pay for everything, tried to attract big corporate money and then proceeded to alienate their core customer. Now they are desperately trying to win people back with gimmick ticket pricing and they arent succeeding. I think that Sugarbush needs to retain the riff-raff who have skied there for years and who post and lurk on this board; because we care about the "venture" with a passion that money cant buy.

gottdogg
03-22-2007, 08:35 PM
For what its worth, thanks Win for posting here and helping keep us informed. Your hands on approach is greatly appreciated. Congratulations on making the most of a difficult year. The mountain is in awesome shape. This spring should be a memorable one.

The mountain can't be all things to everyone. It seems to me that you have made the decision to invest in your core and what I would think is the profit center -- Lincoln Peak. As it moves upscale, I am sure many feel left out. They need to remember the golden rule -- the man with the gold rules. Also, there is a viable alternative with Mountain Ellen pass. However, most of the people that post here seem to do it because they love the Bush. I hope you found this place to be helpful on getting a read on things and that you will return next year. I also wish you the best of luck with the development this summer. Some valid criticism and concerns have been raised about the current lodge and some good ideas for the new building. The criticism may sting sometimes but I suspect is something that is not often expressed to the President of relatively small company. One last point - IMO, the manificent, majestic, "matchless" just does not cut it (especially the matchless part).

Enjoy the spring skiing -- I know that I will.

BushMogulMaster
03-22-2007, 09:12 PM
Have we all become so desensitized by the impersonal nature online communication that we have forgotten about respect?

I'm personally disappointed that any of us could act in such a way that would frustrate Win to the extent that he no longer feels inclined to participate in our discussions. Win has been a fantastic resource here, and has shown that he cares about the mountain and the Valley... and about each and every one of us. To push this issue to this extent is daunting, alarming, and distressing to me.

This board is an opportune way for each individual to express his opinions and thoughts. It's certainly fine that there are points of disagreement... that's part of how things get accomplished. It is not, however, fine to take up a disrespectful and sarcastic tone with someone who has been so good to us, and is doing everything he can to make Sugarbush the best it can possibly be. I'm not always happy with every single decision that is made, or every single facet of the operation either, but I hold myself to a stronger set of values than to become discourteous and ungracious. I'm sure each of us would run the business differently than the next, but Win is in the captain's seat, and therefore the decisions he makes (even if you disagree, which is ok) should be respected if nothing else. This doesn't mean that discussion and opposition should not be expressed, but it means to show consideration for the decision and appreciate the position that Win is in.

I am not going to point any fingers or blame anyone specifically, but I am thoroughly discouraged and disappointed (and frankly, annoyed) in what I've read.

Win: I'm sorry that it has come to this. Thank you for all of the contributions you've made and for everything you've done and continue to do at Sugarbush. Regardless of what anyone else says or thinks, Sugarbush is Magnificent, Majestic, and Matchless, and my loyalty will always be to these mountains. Thank you.

TimKeogh
03-22-2007, 09:19 PM
Well said, BushMogulMaster.

Because I was bored/curious I checked out the prices for adult "all access" season passes at major VT areas.

1255 Stowe (06/07 price)
1400 Killington
1059 Okemo
999 Stratton
949 Sugarbush
666 Jay (06/07 Price)
N/A Mt Snow

1400 Sunday River (06/07)
875 WhiteFace (06/07)

sugarboarder
03-22-2007, 09:33 PM
Well said, BushMogulMaster.

Because I was bored/curious I checked out the prices for adult "all access" season passes at major VT areas.

1255 Stowe (06/07 price)
1400 Killington
1059 Okemo
999 Stratton
949 Sugarbush
666 Jay (06/07 Price)
N/A Mt Snow

1400 Sunday River (06/07)
875 WhiteFace (06/07)

Interesting - the $949 SB is if you buy it before May...just want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Also, be aware that some area's passes include a lot of perks, like those I listed for Stowe above, and some don't. The 5 and 6 day pass prices are closer in price for some areas than others too. I do agree with Tin though - we all know skiing is expensive, and we will choose our places based on what we want, what is offered, and what we can afford,

Sunday River $1400...now THAT is funny, I don't care who ya are. :lol:

TimKeogh
03-22-2007, 09:50 PM
Well said, BushMogulMaster.

Because I was bored/curious I checked out the prices for adult "all access" season passes at major VT areas.

1255 Stowe (06/07 price)
1400 Killington
1059 Okemo
999 Stratton
949 Sugarbush
666 Jay (06/07 Price)
N/A Mt Snow

1400 Sunday River (06/07)
875 WhiteFace (06/07)

Interesting - the $949 SB is if you buy it before May...just want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Also, be aware that some area's passes include a lot of perks, like those I listed for Stowe above, and some don't. The 5 and 6 day pass prices are closer in price for some areas than others too. I do agree with Tin though - we all know skiing is expensive, and we will choose our places based on what we want, what is offered, and what we can afford,

Sunday River $1400...now THAT is funny, I don't care who ya are. :lol:


Yeah SugarBoarder, I should have put a disclaimer in that I did not read the fine print and only looked for 7 day, no blackout, single area, adult passes...
It was a 15 minute endeavor only. Consult your trusted ski financial advisor before making an investment for the 2007/2008 season. Past snow totals do not guarantee future dumps like V-Day & St P-Day

sugarboarder
03-22-2007, 09:56 PM
Well said, BushMogulMaster.

Because I was bored/curious I checked out the prices for adult "all access" season passes at major VT areas.

1255 Stowe (06/07 price)
1400 Killington
1059 Okemo
999 Stratton
949 Sugarbush
666 Jay (06/07 Price)
N/A Mt Snow

1400 Sunday River (06/07)
875 WhiteFace (06/07)

Interesting - the $949 SB is if you buy it before May...just want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Also, be aware that some area's passes include a lot of perks, like those I listed for Stowe above, and some don't. The 5 and 6 day pass prices are closer in price for some areas than others too. I do agree with Tin though - we all know skiing is expensive, and we will choose our places based on what we want, what is offered, and what we can afford,

Sunday River $1400...now THAT is funny, I don't care who ya are. :lol:


Yeah SugarBoarder, I should have put a disclaimer in that I did not read the fine print and only looked for 7 day, no blackout, single area, adult passes...
It was a 15 minute endeavor only. Consult your trusted ski financial advisor before making an investment for the 2007/2008 season. Past snow totals do not guarantee future dumps like V-Day & St P-Day

Cool - just being my usual picky and precise self..."value added" from knuckledraggerville! 8)

Lostone
03-22-2007, 10:18 PM
Can't leave youse kids alone for a few hours! :roll: :lol:

First, Win, sorry you got that upset, but not all that surprised. In reality freedom of speech is only really good when everyone agrees with you, or when you want to disagree with the majority/powers.

I think, if you'll read most of the posts on the board, you'll find there are many who are great fans of the bush. As it is an open forum, there are also going to be a few who don't like it, you, and/or some/all the people there.

There will always be some who will disagree with your policies and prices. You will never be able to convince everyone, and you shouldn't even try. State your case, then just let us wear ourselves out. :wink:

Some will say every time North Lynx goes on windhold, it is to keep people from Slidebrook. Some will say you shut it down to save the money. Some will say... anything! :roll: You can't answer them all. You don't have the time. To steal a line from a folk singer, "Son, don't wrestle with a pig. Just don't do it. You'll both get filthy. And the piglikes it."

Still, it has been good having you put in your input. When Greg started to set up the forum, he tried to get someone from Sugarbush, Mad River and the valley, so that your respective views could be expressed. Having you makes it so much stronger than having someone who has to check, or makes guesses, which hurts their credibility, should any of them prove not to be true.



As to the subject of the price increases, does it surprise anyone that there were no opinions that they should have been raised higher? Even after seeing the prices for other mountains and finding that Sugarbush is lower than a number of its competitors? Nobody ever wants prices to go up. Given a choice, they'd want them to go down, and there are a number of those opinions, here.

As to the percentage of increase, it really isn't entirely valid. If I was making a sub for $!, and you liked it, that would be a great value. If I then changed the price to $2, that would be a 100% increase. Would it still be a good value to get the sub at $2? That is the question. If you are not getting the value of your price, and you can get a better value somewhere else, you should do so. If enough people decide the price is not worth the value of the dollars spent, the price will drop or the buisness will fold.

The added things that Sugarboarder is being offered for the price of $50 more than the increased price, at Sugarbush would have very limited value to me. So for me, the question would be is the terrain at Stowe and the use of it for President's week and MLK day worth $50 more. IF it was, that would be my choice. If it is for you, that should be yours, too.

The other comment I wanted to get back to is the college pass. The reason for that pass is not so that they'll pay for the next few years. It is to let them know what a good place we have, here. Then, as they get more settled, as time goes on, they'll remember Sugarbush as the great mountain it is, and when they decide to take a ski vacation, or get a ski house or second home, the mountain is hoping they'll remember their great experiences.

I'm sure there are a few other points I wanted to make, as I went thru this, but it is up to 6 pages and the rest will have to wait until I think of them again and care to spend more time on this thread. :roll: :wink:

asland
03-23-2007, 05:57 AM
[size=24]
1400 Killington
1400 Sunday River (06/07)
875 WhiteFace (06/07)

all east pass that covered sunday river and killington was about $300.
Whiteface only non-holiday was $299 last year and I think this past year as well.

My point is that many of these areas you mentioned have viable options for the middle class. To ski sugarbush, where I really want to ski I have to scrounge craigslist, attend ski expos for coupons...

Bush mogulamaster:
Have we all become so desensitized by the impersonal nature online communication that we have forgotten about respect?

These forums are not personal messages to win. They are a bunch of people sharing their stories good times and yes sometimes gripes. That's what a blog is. I went back over my posts and other posts that have been posted in this message and do not really find anything that is offensive - just some gripes.

madhavok
03-23-2007, 06:43 AM
Unfortunately skiing is becoming a sport exclusively for the enjoyment of the wealthy. Some of us are already getting close to being priced out of it and I don’t think there is anything wrong with the little guy complaining about price raise. It is far from a personal attack and quite frankly it is only natural. On the flip side, the little guy doesn’t own or operate a ski resort. Those that do need to make decisions based on the economics of running a ski resort. While we might not like the decisions, they have to do whatever it takes to stay profitable. Otherwise we wouldn’t have ski resorts.

castlerock
03-23-2007, 06:56 AM
all east pass that covered sunday river and killington was about $300.


Look, If we are going to compare prices, lets just get the facts. I had a hard time finding the exact prices for the 06-07 season at the now DEFUNCT ASC. But here it is

From this link: http://www.peaks.com/snownews.html?id=1214&nobar=1

"The flagship passes are the $365 Bronze Pass, valid seven days a week, with 14 black-out days spread across the season and the $619 Gold Pass with no black-out days."

So the FACT is that the All east pass was $619 (plus tax). The Bronze pass, is a bait and switch.

Now $619, has been proven to be financially unfeasible for the entity that offered it

I'm not arguing for higher pass prices.

I haven't seen the new Blazer info yet, but.......Next year no Blazers for me...(and it is a bummer as I won't be able to defend the Parent/Child bump title my son and I won this year)

Nick Danger
03-23-2007, 06:57 AM
I've followed this thread with some amusement. While there are certainly many here with different economic concerns than my owm, I've always noted that skiing at SB for a family of four was a great bargain compared to many other mountains. Forgetting about ASC's experiment with cheap passes (look where it got them) the SB policy of free children passes with an adult pass has always made the total cost significantly less than many other mountans, they even sent me money back the first year of this policy. At Killington, a young adult pass is 1100, a Junior is 950. This is the price currently on their web site, I assume discounts are available. At Stowe, the early purchase price for a child or student is 375. A family pass for 2 adults and 2 children at stowe is 3110.
For me, the pass price, and any increases, are an very small part of the overall skiing cost for a season. As a condo owner with a family of four, here's a very rough, best guess, breakdown of what we spend for a season. It's probably more when you consider how often we stop and eat out on the way to and from SB but I won't include that.

Condo fees, taxes and utilities - 6500
15 weekends driving 400 miles at 40c per mile - 2400
Ski passes - 1900
Children and aduly programs - 2700
Skis, boots etc, average annual - 1400

So a season of skiing costs us about 15,000 dollars. Or, to put it another way, two trips to Disney :D

By any standard, that's alot of money. So what does a hundred dollar pass price increase mean? One less dinner out. I believe that for a majority of pass holders, the price increase is just background noise in the overall cost of skiing.

So I say to Win (if he's still listening) keep up the good work, there are plenty of us out here who appreciate what you're doing and don't mind the occasional modest increase.

ski_resort_observer
03-23-2007, 07:02 AM
Unfortunately skiing is becoming a sport exclusively for the enjoyment of the wealthy.

I completely disagree with your comment. Sure, you might have to become abit more flexible as to where and when you go and you have to do alittle work to find the deals but you don't have to pay $65+ day ticket prices if you don't want to. check this thread.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/9273-skiing-cheap-2006-07-a.html?highlight=skiing+cheap

asland
03-23-2007, 07:34 AM
While there are certainly many here with different economic concerns than my owm,

So a season of skiing costs us about 15,000 dollars. Or, to put it another way, two trips to Disney :D

So what does a hundred dollar pass price increase mean? One less dinner out. I

I guess we are talking different economic concerns - $7500 for a trip to Disney? $100 dinners. Wow!

asland
03-23-2007, 07:39 AM
all east pass that covered sunday river and killington was about $300.

So the FACT is that the All east pass was $619 (plus tax). The Bronze pass, is a bait and switch.


My point was, and I did state this in the second part of the message, that there were viable alternatives.

The Bronze pass and the white face only non-holiday pass would be great for my needs. I travel on most of those holidays anyway.

BTW/ the all mountain five blocks out holidays as well.

asland

gone.skiing
03-23-2007, 08:13 AM
As to the percentage of increase, it really isn't entirely valid. If I was making a sub for $!, and you liked it, that would be a great value. If I then changed the price to $2, that would be a 100% increase. Would it still be a good value to get the sub at $2? That is the question. If you are not getting the value of your price, and you can get a better value somewhere else, you should do so. If enough people decide the price is not worth the value of the dollars spent, the price will drop or the buisness will fold.

So if prices keep going up by 20% plus each year for next 5 years you would be happy to be part of that experiment? Blazers are up to $860 if I buy now, should I be looking to $1000 next year?

MntMan4Bush
03-23-2007, 08:48 AM
$15,000 a year to ski!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am NEVER having kids. That's it. They're out of the picture. Now to convince wifey of my logic...... 8)

The bottom line is what? The only way to get a mountain to change it's pricing policy is to stop going there and\or for it to take a hit financially which could include decrease in concession sales, etc. because people feel they already spent to much. This could also have a more negative effect like closing it down. Regardless though when revenue decreases it's time to take a look. Does it mean time to raise prices? It could end up being like our current tax situation whereby it puts a stanglehold and actually decreases the revenue spent by the people. Don't worry I won't get into econimics here. Or decrease prices? Who knows what will happen. But again back to the bottom line. The price went up so what am I going to do? I know that I could fight "the man" and go somewhere else as a statement and not encourage price increases or like many of you I will suck it up and buy a season pass. Why because I love Sugarbush? Because I have a great deal on a place to stay for the season (about 2K for wifey and I combined for the season)? Because I like the wings at Timbers? Because I'm too damn lazy to do anything else? It's more likely that it's because where I never WANT to pay more than I was paying and it will be more painful to fork it over at the time, but by Mid-January next year when it's the best damn year of snow ever and I'm taking face shots like Clubber Lang in Rocky 3 I'll have completely forgotten about the extra $100 and it will all seem worth it then.

Besides as I've said before, something can only cost what the market will bear. I have a feeling many of you will end up buying the pass just like me.

castlerock
03-23-2007, 09:05 AM
Damn, the Blazer programs have definitely taken a hit. Treeskier noted this earlier. I have just had a chance to look at the numbers and compare them to last year.

http://forums.skimrv.com/albums/album26/2_G.jpg

Forget the 20% adder. We are talking 34% adder here, for Mini Blazers!. 28% for Blazers. (forget the 1559 price, that has to be a typo in the original email)

Look I can accept increases. And I will be buying the pass, and to be frank, I was already considering no blazers, but this makes the decision much easier. I'll bet that this won't make a difference to the majority of Blazer parents, but maybe not......

Last year:
2 passes
1 mini
1 Blazer
1 Adv Blazer

Next year
2 Passes

atkinson
03-23-2007, 09:43 AM
Hi everyone,

You can't get rid of me yet, although I am a little bummed that Treeskier and now Castlerock decided to take their concerns straight to the web, rather than contacting me directly. You guys know where I am and how to reach me very quickly. All you had to do was hit the reply button.

Our Seasonal Programs are still a great value, even with the increases. In apples to apples comparisons, we have been well below the cost of similar programs at other resorts and even with the increases, we are still low. And I would argue that in most cases our programs and coaches are much better. And that belief comes straight from the results and feedback we receive from kids and adults involved in the programs, including Treeskier and CR.

I appreciate everybody's concerns and thought long and hard before proposing these rates. I don't ever want to help make skiing and riding into sports that are only for people with large incomes. But if we want Sugarbush to be viable in the long term, we need to at least charge fair market value for our products and make sure we are being fiscally responsible.

We also offer very discounted programs for local schools, VASS, colleges and other similar groups to help keep skiing and riding accessible to more economic levels. And the younger kids ski and ride for free. We do understand and address this need.

Keep the dialogue coming, everyone.

John

p.s. The late Blazer price is a typo, it should be $1179. Sorry for that mistake. And the price increase is only ~15% for most of the programs, aside from the Bush Pilots, if you sign up now for next year. But let's not get into a math/ statistics game, mkay?

gone.skiing
03-23-2007, 09:59 AM
John, nobody is disagreeing with the value. Those are reasons why I switched from ASC resorts to Bush. That is likely to be the reason why I will be back next year. I do worry about long term pricing outlook though. This year prices looked reasonable, next year they are still a good value, what about the year after? Is it safe to assume that this increase brings prices to the level you guys are happy with and next year's increase will not be as dramatic? I would hate to see my son get used to Blazers just to get priced out a year or 2 down the road.

I think this dialog started with passes and when your email came out people just rolled that into discussion.

Castlerock, which age category did you compete in? I let my son down in 6 and under category. He got one of the highest points number for the kids and I missed a couple... ;)

Volkl Skier
03-23-2007, 10:04 AM
Adult Full Price Season Pass Price

Arapahoe Basin: $249
Loveland: $319
Mt Baker: $641
Magic: $399
Jay Peak: $592
Sugarbush: $1499

Sounds fair to me....

atkinson
03-23-2007, 10:09 AM
Thanks for the reply gone.skiing. Without a crystal ball I can't say exactly what will happen next year, but I think you accurately depict the situation, in that we will probably not have as large an increase as we have for 07-08.

John

atkinson
03-23-2007, 10:18 AM
Apples to apples, Vocal Skier.

The Front range resorts all got into a price battle that doesn't reflect their actual costs. Besides, it 's not like those are real choices for East Coast skiers and riders. Who cares that A-Basin is cheap? It's still a long flight from here. Baker doesn't have much in the way of snowmaking costs, either.

If you want to compare, how much are passes at Stowe, Killington, etc? Oh yeah, I think we answered that one already.

John

Volkl Skier
03-23-2007, 10:22 AM
Not a very long "flight" from Sugarbush to Magic or Jay though...


If you want to compare, how much are passes at Stowe, Killington, etc? Oh yeah, I think we answered that one already.

We all learned when we were kids, that two wrongs make a right?

atkinson
03-23-2007, 10:29 AM
Magic? Great little place, but hardly an accurate comparison, especially when length of season is factored in. Jay is cheaper. No doubt. And a great place. No arguments here.

But we still cost less than Stowe and Killington, so how is that wrong? Or two wrongs?

John

asland
03-23-2007, 10:29 AM
how much are passes at Stowe, Killington, etc?

Let's just establish for the record that Stowe is just rediculous. I hope that sugarbush does not soon fall into that category.

Killington on the other hand had a viable alternative with all east pass.

asland

Fourwide
03-23-2007, 10:41 AM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Win, please don't go! I don't think anyone posting here would argue for a nanosecond that the improvements have been sustantial and fantastic! The new buildings are absolutely tremendous (although the CR pub is a bit too large for my tastes :wink: ) I do think that some complaints have been repeated to a fair-thee-well. That's the nature of these boards, I'm afraid--posters are generally quite intent on expressing their views, and the negative does tend to overwhelm the positive and neutral! (As an aside, I find all the drama re. spring skiing quite interesting, as (I'm guessing) not more than 5% of all skiers would even contemplate putting on skis after 4/1.) I believe we should give Win a bit more of a break on this site, given his participation. Make your point, but make it once (ok, maybe twice!). Criticism is fine, but let's not micro-manage.

And, speaking of (real) Spring activities, anyone know the status of contemplated changes to the golf course?

Yard Sale
03-23-2007, 10:54 AM
John, nobody is disagreeing with the value. Those are reasons why I switched from ASC resorts to Bush. That is likely to be the reason why I will be back next year. I do worry about long term pricing outlook though. This year prices looked reasonable, next year they are still a good value, what about the year after? Is it safe to assume that this increase brings prices to the level you guys are happy with and next year's increase will not be as dramatic? I would hate to see my son get used to Blazers just to get priced out a year or 2 down the road.

I think this dialog started with passes and when your email came out people just rolled that into discussion.

These sentiments pretty much mirror my own. I Love the Bush. I Love the programs. I do however have long term concerns regarding cost. These concerns do not negate my appreciation for the efforts put forth by Win and his team. Sugabush is a top notch organization and generally exceed expectation. Unfortunately in this type of medium(this forum) opinions shared often can come across as only black and white.

I assume as with any business Summit Ventures makes its business decisions dispassionately. It is not as easy to do so as a consumer operating a family or personal budget. Therefore emotions that otherwise may normally be kept quiet may spill into a forum such as this one.

It is unfortunate that Win is not participating in this forum for now, but I can understand why. Clearly his participation here in this forum and with operations on the hill and certainly skiing make it obvious that he is indeed very passionate about Sugarbush, and it must be difficult at times to compartmentalize and keep separate the business and personal aspects of his affiliation with Sugarbush especially in this forum where one day everyone revels in the joy of the Bush experience and the next day bitch about some aspect of it. I hope he comes back and soon.

When you see the cost trend upward it is a concern. When that upward trend appears to be accelerating it is of even greater concern. Hence the alarming tone of many of these posts. When costs rise they're generally rising for everyone including ski resorts. So there is no one to "blame". It is the market. I think the market data put forth in this thread indicate that we're still doing pretty good comparitvely to competing hills and the programs they offer. But, naturally as a consumer a good deal is only part of the equation. The other part is the availability of funds to act on the good deal. Now, I'm buying my passes. I'm enrolling my kids in Blazers, but I still have to always be looking into the future, obviously. As does the Bush, obviously. And obviously everyone here appreciates what we have hear, or no one would be responding

P.S. John you and your coaches did a great job this season.

Thanks.

madhavok
03-23-2007, 10:56 AM
Fourwide,

I come up to Sugarbush to golf a couple of rounds every summer. What kind of changes might they be making?

Tin Woodsman
03-23-2007, 11:14 AM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

This is a disappointing outcome. Win - your contributions have been highly valued by this member of the board, and I'm sure most others. I am glad to see that you've left the door open to returning next year. That said, comments from this particular peanut gallery should not be treated with anger or derision, but rather as valued feedback from some of your most loyal customers. Sure, you'll get a few whack jobs on here with unreasonable demands and expectations along with faulty memories, but that's a slice of society. You also get great feedback on the positives and negatives of the current operation.

Yes, you invested a tremendous amount of money in this off-season to improve the product. The new GH lodge is beautiful and the food is clearly a huge, material upgrade. The investment made in snowmaking and snow surfaces in general (new groomer; pushing snow here and there as needed) is noticeable and welcomed. But there have been some notable missteps. You were forced to re-open the VH lodge cafeteria b/c there just isn't enough seating capacity in the GH lodge and not enough people are interested in having lunch in the CR pub or Timbers. While I'm not a fan of the no bag/boot policy on the main floor of the lodge, it would be workable with plenty of changing room space downstairs. You were forced to modify that space several times, in no small part I'm sure due to complaints voiced here. That remains an issue b/c you can't change human behavior no matter how hard you try. The size of the CR Pub was a further miscalculation. I went in there once this year, after enjoying one of the three previous venues every day I was here in prior years. It's way, way to crowded in there for a relaxing adult beverage after a hard day skiing. If you though that Timbers would act as a safety valve, then why wan't there an apres menu on Day 1? I know the wine list was certainly ready. And finally, the decision on late season skiing at LP seems to represent a departure from focusing primarily on the skiing experience. This sentiment is echoed by weekend warriors and locals alike, at least those who don't draw a paycheck from the mountain. I'm not sure how you could reasonably expect there to not be any hubbub about this, especially given the pomp and circumstance with which you yourselves returned late season skiing and riding to its rightful place at ME just a few years back.

You may disagree with some of the conclusions drawn on this board, and that would be your right to do so. But most of the time, we're not flying off the handle with ridiculous concerns and dreams. In a similar manner, when people are experiencing price increases of 10-20% or more for all or parts of their skiing experience, I don't understand how you could expect them not to speak out. You're making investments and you've got a business to run, but you can't expect people just to be happy to pay any price for those improvements, especially when the ability to execute on the plan delivering those improvements is ......inconsistent.

As I referenced (rather harshly) before, the design and execution of the Guest Serices Lodge is absolutely critical given the impending demise of Valley House lodge. I am hopeful that it will be done the right way, but the reduced footprint in the state filing is, on the surface, unsettling. This base area won't work without another cafeteria at LP and an enlarged apres facility. It's really just that simple and it really can't be a controversial sentiment to anyone who spends more than a few days here per year.

Volkl Skier
03-23-2007, 11:22 AM
I think most people would agree that Win has done a tremendous job, and deserves credit. And please dont' take the critiques too hard. (speaking for myself and a lot of others I think) Nearly every complaint I have about Sugarbush is either a long standing issue or one that could be said of alot of other ski areas, certainly not an attack on the great job you've done.

Volkl Skier
03-23-2007, 11:25 AM
Magic? Great little place, but hardly an accurate comparison, especially when length of season is factored in. Jay is cheaper. No doubt. And a great place. No arguments here.

But we still cost less than Stowe and Killington, so how is that wrong? Or two wrongs?

John

Ok, (serious question) why does it cost Sugarbush, Stowe, and Killington 300% more per skier to run than Jay?

random_ski_guy
03-23-2007, 11:50 AM
Whiteface only non-holiday was $299 last year and I think this past year as well.



Whiteface isn't a valid comp because its operations and capital improvements are subsized by the wonderful state of New York. $299 doesn't reflect the true cost of skiing Whiteface, instaters need to include some portion of their large income tax and local property taxes into the equation. :x

random_ski_guy
03-23-2007, 11:58 AM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Please don't leave the board, your involvement is one of the many aspects that makes Sugarbush unique (and superior). While I can understand reducing your involvment, please don't pull up the draw bridge all together. We need you here! Without your sanity, who knows where this board will go. Win, we need your reality checks!

random_ski_guy
03-23-2007, 11:59 AM
Magic? Great little place, but hardly an accurate comparison, especially when length of season is factored in. Jay is cheaper. No doubt. And a great place. No arguments here.

But we still cost less than Stowe and Killington, so how is that wrong? Or two wrongs?

John

Ok, (serious question) why does it cost Sugarbush, Stowe, and Killington 300% more per skier to run than Jay?

Snowmaking? Just a guess.

asland
03-23-2007, 12:10 PM
[quote=asland]
Whiteface isn't a valid comp because its operations and capital improvements are subsized by the wonderful state of New York. $299 doesn't reflect the true cost of skiing Whiteface, instaters need to include some portion of their large income tax and local property taxes into the equation. :x

I love how people keep trying to debunk that their are other ski areas charging less. Whiteface is state funded.... Jay does not have enough snow making...ASC not a good business model...

Whiteface $299 /season pass. They're business model is different. There are a ton of reasons they can charge less. They did not dump a bunch of money into new condos at the base being one of them but...

my point is thy are charging way less because of a differnet business model. Sugarbush has made their business decisions and now they have to charge accordingly. NORDA from NY has ade their business model and live within their budget....

castlerock
03-23-2007, 12:15 PM
You can't get rid of me yet, although I am a little bummed that Treeskier and now Castlerock decided to take their concerns straight to the web, rather than contacting me directly. You guys know where I am and how to reach me very quickly. All you had to do was hit the reply button.

Our Seasonal Programs are still a great value, even with the increases. In apples to apples comparisons, we have been well below the cost of similar programs at other resorts and even with the increases, we are still low. And I would argue that in most cases our programs and coaches are much better. And that belief comes straight from the results and feedback we receive from kids and adults involved in the programs, including Treeskier and CR.


John, it isn't my intent to take a private concern public. Please don't read it that way. I was just making a comment on public pricing.

I have been trying to make sure that everything in the thread has been based on fact. Hence my earlier posts, clarifying claims that others have made about pass prices.

I believe, I have not deviated from that. Fact is Fact. When it comes to the Blazers, the rates are the rates. I'm not bitching. I'm fortunate, I ski every weekend. That I can even entertain the idea of the Blazer program makes me one of the "lucky ones"...

I guess It is just that we all have limits. I just went from expecting to have to come up with $2000 (for passes) on May 1st to having to find $4400 (passes and Blazers) on the same day.

And If I kept to the same schedule as last year (Pass in the Spring, Blazers in the fall) My Blazer cost would go from $2090 this year to $2700!.

That is a bit of a curveball, for a marginal hitter like me. (Not like the Dali-Lama, Big hitter, flowing robes etc...)

And you won't get rid of me yet either....I'll see you at line up on Saturday, hopefully requiring sunblock!

Fourwide
03-23-2007, 01:15 PM
Fourwide,

I come up to Sugarbush to golf a couple of rounds every summer. What kind of changes might they be making?

I thought I saw some sort of communication, perhaps over the summer/fall, describing some changes in the offing, but I just can't recall and need to look again for that. I'll be sure to post it if I can find it.

sugarboarder
03-23-2007, 01:24 PM
As to the percentage of increase, it really isn't entirely valid. If I was making a sub for $!, and you liked it, that would be a great value. If I then changed the price to $2, that would be a 100% increase. Would it still be a good value to get the sub at $2? That is the question. If you are not getting the value of your price, and you can get a better value somewhere else, you should do so. If enough people decide the price is not worth the value of the dollars spent, the price will drop or the buisness will fold.

So if prices keep going up by 20% plus each year for next 5 years you would be happy to be part of that experiment? Blazers are up to $860 if I buy now, should I be looking to $1000 next year?

I wanna know when he is going to start making and selling these $1 and $2 subs!!

random_ski_guy
03-23-2007, 01:26 PM
There are a ton of reasons they can charge less. They did not dump a bunch of money into new condos at the base being one of them but...



Point taken on business models, but Whiteface really isn't comparable because the state aid they receive is enormous.

As for condos, they are suppose to stand on their own financially. While I can't prove it, I doubt the pass price increase has anything to do with Claybrook. Again, neither you or I can disprove each other on the condo point, just my opinion.

sugarboarder
03-23-2007, 01:38 PM
how much are passes at Stowe, Killington, etc?

Let's just establish for the record that Stowe is just rediculous. I hope that sugarbush does not soon fall into that category.

Killington on the other hand had a viable alternative with all east pass.

asland

It all depends on what you want...I posted this before, but for my money and needs Stowe is a better value next year.

***********************************

I bought an "AllMtn 5" pass this year at Sugarbush for $549. This year it will be $699. (about a +27% increase)
Blackout dates are Christmas Week, MLK Weekend, Presidents' Week. That's it. No cross-country, no discounts, no free use of the race course (course open Wed.-Sun. at Stowe / Friday thru Sunday at SB...that's IF it isn't being used for something else.)

***********************************

A "StoweFive" Pass for next year is $740.

This pass is valid every day of the season except: All Saturdays & Sundays, and 12/25/06 through and including 1/1/07, and 2/19/07. NO PRESIDENT'S WEEK OR MLK WEEKEND BLACKOUTS!

5 Day Pass benefits include the following:

Cross-Country Season Pass.
20% discount at Stowe Mountain Resort Retail Shops (non-sale items only).
20% discount on full tune-up at Stowe Mountain Resort Rental Shops.
10% discount at the Cliff House Restaurant and Fireside Tavern (food only).
Free use of Exhibition Hill race course (Open Wed-Sun).
Children receive a 25% discount on full day ski or snowboard Adventure Center school on the days the pass is valid.
20% OFF Private Lessons Valid Mon-Fri/Non-Holiday Periods. Reservations Required.

Add in the fact that the lodges are MUCH bigger and MUCH nicer than Sugarbush, the mountain is bigger (111 trails here is an ASC-inspired joke - it's more like 50 - Stowe is listed as a truthful 44) and the terrain is equal IMO, there is a gondi for cold days, and a transfer gondi between the mountains that runs EVERY day (we have the SBX chair - but it NEVER runs weekdays - weekday pass holders must take the bus). Former US Snowboard Team coach Bud Keene is in residence there too - and the overall level of racing is better too. No offense Lew/Kelly and GMVS - I'm talking general public here, I know you guys are the best!

Oh yeah - and they have a REAL halfpipe which isn't considered an "eyesore" by their clientele.

*************************************

So where is the best value? (Rhetorical question) IF I do stay in VT next year, I know where my pass will be for the $40 extra...even WITH the extra gas (there goes my "carbon offset" - boo hoo :cry: ).

This brings me back to what I was trying to say in my original post about my pass price going up so much - I wouldn't mind if I thought I was getting some sort of even semi-proportional increase in the value of having it, but I don't see it.

To each their own. :)

TimKeogh
03-23-2007, 03:15 PM
Sugarboarder,

Have you been to Stowe on weekends recently?

Everybody wants to be on the front four, and there is only 1 HSQ to get you there.
Most of the day, it is way worse than Bravo on a Sat @ 10AM.

As for Gondola run, it is nice on a cold day, but I get sick of the that run after like 2 times.

I have not been on the new Spruce Peak stuff because it used to be too much Green/Blue. Is it any good ?

kcyanks1
03-23-2007, 03:23 PM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Good idea, really. Probably not a good idea for ANY business owner to go on a forum like this and try to defend the comments that the public types in, sometimes off hand, sometimes when tired or angry at something else entirely...probably not agood idea to even READ it unless you can take it all with a grain of salt, take the comments that are useful and ignore the rest. It's just going to be frustrating to all parties involved. And when so many forum members know that owner personally and see them on a regular basis, it is bound to cause bad blood eventually. It is an admirable idea to be "in the mix" here, and goes with the nature of this owner to be "in the mix" on property which is great...I'm just not so sure it is a GOOD idea.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it is fantastic that Win has participated here, and his willingness to listen to his customer's rantings and complaints (and complements, of course) and to even respond has impressed me immensely, and increased my appreciation of Sugarbush and its owners. Of course he, or anyone, should realize the informality of this sort of message board and the diversity of opinions out there compared to who posts here. But that's not a reason for an owner not to post. I think interacting with one's consumers, especially one's most passionate consumer's, is an outstanding quality in an owner, whether or not we agree with all of his decisions. I for one will miss Win's participation in these forums and hope he comes back next season.

random_ski_guy
03-23-2007, 05:20 PM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Good idea, really. Probably not a good idea for ANY business owner to go on a forum like this and try to defend the comments that the public types in, sometimes off hand, sometimes when tired or angry at something else entirely...probably not agood idea to even READ it unless you can take it all with a grain of salt, take the comments that are useful and ignore the rest. It's just going to be frustrating to all parties involved. And when so many forum members know that owner personally and see them on a regular basis, it is bound to cause bad blood eventually. It is an admirable idea to be "in the mix" here, and goes with the nature of this owner to be "in the mix" on property which is great...I'm just not so sure it is a GOOD idea.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it is fantastic that Win has participated here, and his willingness to listen to his customer's rantings and complaints (and complements, of course) and to even respond has impressed me immensely, and increased my appreciation of Sugarbush and its owners. Of course he, or anyone, should realize the informality of this sort of message board and the diversity of opinions out there compared to who posts here. But that's not a reason for an owner not to post. I think interacting with one's consumers, especially one's most passionate consumer's, is an outstanding quality in an owner, whether or not we agree with all of his decisions. I for one will miss Win's participation in these forums and hope he comes back next season.

ditto!

sugarboarder
03-23-2007, 06:46 PM
Sugarboarder,

Have you been to Stowe on weekends recently?

Everybody wants to be on the front four, and there is only 1 HSQ to get you there.
Most of the day, it is way worse than Bravo on a Sat @ 10AM.

As for Gondola run, it is nice on a cold day, but I get sick of the that run after like 2 times.

I have not been on the new Spruce Peak stuff because it used to be too much Green/Blue. Is it any good ?

Uh...it's a "StoweFive" pass...weekdays only...I'm not a masochist. :P

Really though, since I am self-employed and "un-attached", and since I race practically every weekend somewhere else it doesn't make sense for me to have a 7-day pass. There is more than one run off the Gondi, and some excellet trees! Spruce has a great race hill. Like I said - to each his own. :)

sugarboarder
03-23-2007, 06:49 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gag me...BN'ers. :roll:

greenmtnboy
03-23-2007, 07:28 PM
It's too bad Win has to throw a temper tantrum on this site. With the exception of a few, every post has legitimate concerns about the cost increase. The only concern I have is as Treeskier said, pushing back the price break dates to May is pretty discouraging. Many of us middle income folks do have other things to pay for such as taxes, summer camps, so on and so forth. We personally budget for our passes this time of year, but to pay for all the other programs we participate in this early, sucks, to say the least. We shouldn't have to cover the losses incurred by the mountain, but its becoming evident, thats what is expected of us.

daevious
03-23-2007, 08:11 PM
The most expensive Blazer program at the most expensive rate is still less than $40 per day. That is a little more than the cost of one 2-hour group lesson at Sugarbush, and it is hundreds less than the early season rate for Stowe's comparable programs.

Do the math--you cannot get a babysitter to watch TV with your child for the rate that you can get an experienced coach to work on your child's skiing for the winter at Sugarbush.

sugarboarder
03-23-2007, 08:13 PM
The most expensive Blazer program at the most expensive rate is still less than $40 per day. That is a little more than the cost of one 2-hour group lesson at Sugarbush., and it is hundreds less than the early season rate for Stowe's comparable programs.

Do the math--you cannot get a babysitter to watch TV with your child for the rate that you can get an experienced coach to work on your child's skiing for the winter at Sugarbush.

Good point!! I don't have kids, but still! 8)

I think the problem lies in that it increases the initial hit quite a bit. Would you still hire that same babysitter if you had to pay $1500 up front every year?

HowieT2
03-24-2007, 09:50 AM
Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Good idea, really. Probably not a good idea for ANY business owner to go on a forum like this and try to defend the comments that the public types in, sometimes off hand, sometimes when tired or angry at something else entirely...probably not agood idea to even READ it unless you can take it all with a grain of salt, take the comments that are useful and ignore the rest. It's just going to be frustrating to all parties involved. And when so many forum members know that owner personally and see them on a regular basis, it is bound to cause bad blood eventually. It is an admirable idea to be "in the mix" here, and goes with the nature of this owner to be "in the mix" on property which is great...I'm just not so sure it is a GOOD idea.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it is fantastic that Win has participated here, and his willingness to listen to his customer's rantings and complaints (and complements, of course) and to even respond has impressed me immensely, and increased my appreciation of Sugarbush and its owners. Of course he, or anyone, should realize the informality of this sort of message board and the diversity of opinions out there compared to who posts here. But that's not a reason for an owner not to post. I think interacting with one's consumers, especially one's most passionate consumer's, is an outstanding quality in an owner, whether or not we agree with all of his decisions. I for one will miss Win's participation in these forums and hope he comes back next season.

ditto!

I agree wholeheartedly, but would like to add the following. Sugarboarder you have a fairly unique situation and yet you don't seem to understand why the mountain operations are not tailored to please you. Not that your concerns aren't legitimate, but I don't think you can run a business that way. Stowe may be better for you next year and as with anyone, your attendance at SB will be missed, but I have a feeling you'll be complaining about Stowe as well.

It also seems that those who are upset about the price increases point the blame at the cost of the Claybrook, and don't mention the cost of building the new lodge. It seems beyond obvious, that the Claybrook pays for itself much quicker than the lodge which we all enjoy. I have my complaints about the lodge (don't like the chili, no fireplace, want bigger tvs with something on, size of CR pub and changing room yada yada yada) but it is a fantastic addition to the base and 'nothing is perfect. It is certainly a huge improvement and we should all be thankful that SV made the investment.

Frankly, some of the posts here complaining endlessly have sounded like my spoiled six year old. Instead of making constructive comments to help the powers that be understand the situation, it is just whining.

Tin, as for your comments about Apres and Timbers, I think part of the problem is that Timbers is closed off to the courtyard across from the CR pub. With the only entrance on the side, it is not inviting people in who just want to plop down somewhere casual for a beer. Perhaps a door across from the pub which is only utilized for apres? Just a thought.

I for one, have had the best ski season of my life. The reports of the sports demise in January were premature. I'm looking forward to getting my first season's pass ever. I want to thank everyone here for all the help and for contributing to a great season.

sugarboarder
03-24-2007, 01:36 PM
Sugarboarder you have a fairly unique situation and yet you don't seem to understand why the mountain operations are not tailored to please you. Not that your concerns aren't legitimate, but I don't think you can run a business that way. Stowe may be better for you next year and as with anyone, your attendance at SB will be missed, but I have a feeling you'll be complaining about Stowe as well.

Yeah, you're right, really unique situation. Being a snowboarder and all - none of those around. And racing too...nobody here does that. :roll:

I've never asked the mountain to tailor their operations to please me and only me - come on. What I have done is say, hey, I paid for "X" and expect it. If you buy a NASTAR pass - you excpect to be able to use the NASTAR course. If you join the Sugarbush Racing Club, with 80+ members who pay to race every Thursday, buy NASTAR passes, and spend a lot on food at the mountain - you expect that you will get what you are paying for. If you buy a Sugarbush pass thinking there will be a halfpipe like we have had in the past, and there is not, wouldn't you say sometyhing about it? And believe me, I am not alone on that last point...since most here on this forum are skiers I'm sure you don't realize that.

I am not saying we didn't get ANYTHING. of course we did, and 90 percent of the time it was great, but am I not allowed to say when I think We are being shorted on what we paid for? People are acting like I expect SV to actually listen to what it is EXACTLY that I want to see here. All I am doing is the same as what everyone else here is doing - saying I don't like "X" or that I feel that I'm not getting what I paid for at times. It's venting, that's all, and I get it...NOBODY has to listen to me or DO anything...but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to speak my mind. What fun would it be if everyone agreed with me?

The argument that we are "getting a deal" with a midweek pass is a non-issue. That is what the mountain charged for said pass. To come back later and say "hey we gave you a deal, and we should be charging more for that service" is ridiculous. That was the rate paid and the deal was midweek skiing and riding...period. That's one of the reasons I believe Win's presence on this forum is not a good idea. It is a noble concept, but only if he understands that a lot of what he is hearing here is the same old stuff that he'd here if he listened to people talk in bars, the store, or wherever...it's just thst here it is saved for all to see. It's still a new medium with rules and etiquette and utilization of the medium being developed and learned by all involved. Believe me. I've learned a few things this winter about what and how to post complaints and/or comments, and even compliments. You can't take it back and it doesn't fade into a wall of bar talk here.

Side note - if I do go to Stowe, and complain about anything, it will PALE in comparison to the complaining I hear about basically EVERYTHING ELSE in life from practically EVERYONE I know, EVERY day...the government, taxes, the war, big box stores, the environment, red staers, blue staters, and on and on and on. It isn't like posting a negative comment on this board is some sort of anomaly in our daily lives.

kcyanks1
03-24-2007, 03:54 PM
It's too bad Win has to throw a temper tantrum on this site. With the exception of a few, every post has legitimate concerns about the cost increase. The only concern I have is as Treeskier said, pushing back the price break dates to May is pretty discouraging. Many of us middle income folks do have other things to pay for such as taxes, summer camps, so on and so forth. We personally budget for our passes this time of year, but to pay for all the other programs we participate in this early, sucks, to say the least. We shouldn't have to cover the losses incurred by the mountain, but its becoming evident, thats what is expected of us.

I don't get season's passes, so I can't personally address how the price increase or moving up the price break date affects me. However, I doubt you are being expected to cover losses incurred by the mountain. Prices are set to maximize revenue, regardless of other expenses or losses. The price should be the same regardless of how Claybrook or the new lodge are doing, unless of course they increase demand.

beelze
03-24-2007, 11:04 PM
Are you having a bad day. Sugarboarder? I can explain the economics of this business to you if you like. If you want what I know you want, it does not come free or cheap. The All-Mountain 5 is a great deal and you know it! Less crowds and great conditions. We really should charge more for week days! If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!



Bottom line Win is that Sugarbush is overpriced - only Stowe is more and at least they give you some
extras. And for every one thing that your operation seems to do right, you end up doing two wrong.
Not interested in a *issing match with you but clearly you have no concept of 'the customer is always
right' if you have to make a reply like you just did. Too many yes men telling you how great your are
bud, sorry.

Lostone
03-25-2007, 08:55 AM
The argument that we are "getting a deal" with a midweek pass is a non-issue. That is what the mountain charged for said pass. To come back later and say "hey we gave you a deal, and we should be charging more for that service" is ridiculous. That was the rate paid and the deal was midweek skiing and riding...period.

By your way of thinking, if they once have a low price, they could never get to market rates, but should always be below market rates. Actually, it is a common practice to offer a lower price to get someone into the store, then raise the prices, once you have sampled the product.

You have complained about the 27% increase. That is a lot. But they say they did it to get back to what they feel is the market price charged by their competitors. You said that was out of line, so you are going to Stowe, which will now be an increase of 35%. You justify that by saying the extras they give are worth the extra 8% above the original increase.

I said before, and again, if the value you will receive for the price they are charging is not there, you should take you freedom of movement and go to where the value fits the price you will pay.

I think you should go. I've looked at your list of extra things you get and they don't do it for me. And tho I'm not going to say Stowe is not a good mountain, I will say that I think Sugarbush's terrain is much better. But I think you need to get away, as you are so negative about Sugarbush it could never be good for you to stay, were they to give you a half price pass.

And I agree with Howie T2 that you'll be doing a lot of complaining there, too. I just think that is you. (IMNATHO) And if everyone I associated with was always complaining, I'd just have to find other people. It just has to drag you down. (again, IMNATHO)

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 09:04 AM
The argument that we are "getting a deal" with a midweek pass is a non-issue. That is what the mountain charged for said pass. To come back later and say "hey we gave you a deal, and we should be charging more for that service" is ridiculous. That was the rate paid and the deal was midweek skiing and riding...period.

And I agree with Howie T2 that you'll be doing a lot of complaining there, too. I just think that is you. (IMNATHO) And if everyone I associated with was always complaining, I'd just have to find other people. It just has to drag you down. (again, IMNATHO)

Did someone say "argue the point, not the person??? :roll:

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 09:13 AM
The argument that we are "getting a deal" with a midweek pass is a non-issue. That is what the mountain charged for said pass. To come back later and say "hey we gave you a deal, and we should be charging more for that service" is ridiculous. That was the rate paid and the deal was midweek skiing and riding...period.

By your way of thinking, if they once have a low price, they could never get to market rates, but should always be below market rates. Actually, it is a common practice to offer a lower price to get someone into the store, then raise the prices, once you have sampled the product.

Yup, that's known as a "bait and switch". :)

By your way of thinking - it's OK to say we'll sell you a pass at this established price and then tell you later that you got too much for your money and therefore have no right to criticize the seller when you feel that what was promised is not what was delivered.

Lostone
03-25-2007, 09:27 AM
No. Bait and switch is where they lure you in at one price and then say that object is no longer available, but ther eis this more expensive one. This is a simple price increase. You are told at the beginning of the buying cycle, what the price is. You can make the decision to go to the store or not, but the price you will get is the price advertised.

And there is nothing saying you have no right to criticise the increase. That is your right. That does not mean they will lower the price. Some people complain about everythig. They feel their price is competitive with their competition. Should that not be so, they'll notice the drop in their sales and realize they're not making enough withe the new price structure, and change it.

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 09:43 AM
You have complained about the 27% increase. You said that was out of line, so you are going to Stowe, which will now be an increase of 35%. You justify that by saying the extras they give are worth the extra 8% above the original increase.

Yeah..I think I already said that. But thanks for the reminder. :roll:


I said before, and again, if the value you will receive for the price they are charging is not there, you should take you freedom of movement and go to where the value fits the price you will pay.

Thanks - whew, I've been trying to figure that one out since I said it before.


I think you should go. I've looked at your list of extra things you get and they don't do it for me.

What exactly does whether the extras at Stowe "do it for you", or the fact that YOU think I should go have to do with anything. Thanks, I'll take it under consideration.


...I think you need to get away, as you are so negative about Sugarbush it could never be good for you to stay, were they to give you a half price pass.

Yeah, a half price pass, that would REALLY upset me! I find it interesting that MY comments about things I find need improvement are being singled out as "so negative" when there are so many other example throughout this board? Maybe it's the snowboarder thing, who knows. And you're very perceptive - I had a horrible time here this year, it was just awful, god I hope I recover. :P

Let me aks you this - if you bought let's say an expensive landscaping service, and you were promised grass cutting, tree pruning, and flower planting; and the yard was cut perfectly but the the trees were pruned half-assed and only some of the flowers you were promised were planted - would you take the attitude that, well the grass looks great so I'll let the other stuff go?

I am probably a bit more critical about the racing aspect of being at SB than most, but I have put my entire energies into trying to win a National Championship the past two years. Thousands of dollars and a lot of sacrifice. I know non-competitive people could never understand this, that's a given. But when I have NASTAR here as my only training (plus a few days with GMVS - thanks again Steve) and I am told NASTAR will be available every Fri-Sun. snow and weather permitting, why would I not get angry when that is not nearly the case? I plan EVERY detail of my competition strategy and when I get shorted on something I have spent money for I say something. Being told last year that the reason an alternate NASTAR course wasn't set on Racer's Edge becuase there wasn't enough snow, then there Is enough snow this year and it STILL doesn't happen, is a blow-off and alie meant to placate, pure and simple - at least that is the perception the consumer (me) gets.

The solution to this is very simple - be TRUTHFUL with us. If the mountain said at the beginning of the year, NASTAR (or whatever service) will be closed fairly regularly or limited due to other events, and no alternate course (or service) will be offered due to budget issues (or whatever reason), then I would have full disclosure of information, and could decide whether buying a NASTAR pass (or similar extra) is worth it.

Lastly - I don't feel that being vocal, and yes petulant at times (I'm human - oh no), about the focus and passion of my life, which I have poured almost all my resources into, makes me a negative person. If that were true I wouldn't have all the great friends I have all over the country, and yes, here in the valley too...they won't admit it here though 'cause of, you know, the snowboarder thing............................................. .............JUST KIDDING!! :P

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 09:50 AM
No. Bait and switch is where they lure you in at one price and then say that object is no longer available, but ther eis this more expensive one. This is a simple price increase. You are told at the beginning of the buying cycle, what the price is. You can make the decision to go to the store or not, but the price you will get is the price advertised.

You're right. My bad.


And there is nothing saying you have no right to criticise the increase. That is your right. That does not mean they will lower the price.

Come on now - I'm not stupid. You're making it sound like I have asked them, or ecpect them to, lower the price due to one dissenting voice. :lol:



Some people complain about everythig. They feel their price is competitive with their competition. Should that not be so, they'll notice the drop in their sales and realize they're not making enough withe the new price structure, and change it.

Yes - I complain about everything...damn world...why does the bad stuff always all happen to me...thanks for the business lesson though - I wasn't clear on that. :roll:

Strat
03-25-2007, 12:08 PM
they won't admit it here though 'cause of, you know, the snowboarder thing............................................. .............JUST KIDDING!! :P
For the last time, it's not the snowboarder thing, it's just the fact that you're the most outspoken critic on this forum...

Mike_451
03-25-2007, 12:25 PM
The End.

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 12:45 PM
they won't admit it here though 'cause of, you know, the snowboarder thing............................................. .............JUST KIDDING!! :P
For the last time, it's not the snowboarder thing, it's just the fact that you're the most outspoken critic on this forum...


Hellloooooooo...calling Strat......did you miss the JUST KIDDING in capital letters and the "Razz" smilie??? You've also taken your quote out of context - The entire paragraph reds as follows...

"Lastly - I don't feel that being vocal, and yes petulant at times (I'm human - oh no), about the focus and passion of my life, which I have poured almost all my resources into, makes me a negative person. If that were true I wouldn't have all the great friends I have all over the country, and yes, here in the valley too...they won't admit it here though 'cause of, you know, the snowboarder thing............................................. .............JUST KIDDING!!"

It's a playful poke at Lostone's previous thinly veiled barb about people not wanting to hang out with negative people. Get it?

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 12:46 PM
The End.

Thank god - I didn't even start the damn thread. :shock: :D

random_ski_guy
03-25-2007, 12:47 PM
Sugarborder, is it official that you are taking your business to Stowe for '07-'08? If so, what message board will you use to state your gripes? because I want to be able to keep abreast of your trials and tribulations of next season.

******************

The May cutoff for the first discount tier is early, seems unfair. Why not give people at least until June or July. Personally, I always get nervous about buying any non-refundable product that far ahead because I'm concerned that maybe my life will change (e.g. relocation, change in income, injury, etc) or that the company will go defunked in the meantime. Ski areas, in particular, worry me when they hold my money for the entire spring and summer before the season. Again, thats just me. I probably shouldn't worry because no major ski area has ever welched on their passes.

******************

Too many "Yes men?" Can't help it if this board has generally attracted people who like the general direction of the mtn. If you look carefully however, most everyone has shared a complaint, crictical observation or the like throughout the course of the season. So I really don't think the yes men comment holds much water. The more I think about it, I can only think of one Yes man (who I will refrain from calling out), the rest of the other so called yes men that come to mind are also mtn employees, so they are obviously handicapped in what cricitism they can share in a forum like this.

******************

And if you think the value isn't there anymore at Sugarbush, then sadly, I guess its time to move on. Another round of price increases for the '08-'09 season as they are proposing for '07-'08 and I'd be likely to join the dissappointment ~ time to look elsewhere camp.

Strat
03-25-2007, 12:59 PM
they won't admit it here though 'cause of, you know, the snowboarder thing............................................. .............JUST KIDDING!! :P
For the last time, it's not the snowboarder thing, it's just the fact that you're the most outspoken critic on this forum...


Hellloooooooo...calling Strat......did you miss the JUST KIDDING in capital letters and the "Razz" smilie??? You've also taken your quote out of context - The entire paragraph reds as follows...

"Lastly - I don't feel that being vocal, and yes petulant at times (I'm human - oh no), about the focus and passion of my life, which I have poured almost all my resources into, makes me a negative person. If that were true I wouldn't have all the great friends I have all over the country, and yes, here in the valley too...they won't admit it here though 'cause of, you know, the snowboarder thing............................................. .............JUST KIDDING!!"

It's a playful poke at Lostone's previous thinly veiled barb about people not wanting to hang out with negative people. Get it?
Yeah, I get it, but you can't argue that jokingly or not you have brought up the fact that you think you're discriminated against many, many times...

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 01:09 PM
Sugarborder, is it official that you are taking your business to Stowe for '07-'08? If so, what message board will you use to state your gripes? because I want to be able to keep abreast of your trials and tribulations of next season.

:lol: :lol: :lol: ...no, not official...I'll do a press release through my agent when it's been decided!

At least I know where you will be stating YOUR gripes if I want to keep abreast of them! :wink:

Since so many people skim this thread, read only the bad stuff and / or parts of posts...

It's really funny to me how far this went. I posted that I was pissed, and used some not so diplomatic examples to support my point. Win said I had posted "dangerous and uninformed rantings" and then when "asland" pointed out that was going too far, win agreed. Then I apologized to Win (here at least) for using flame points to support my main point. I continued to be criticized so I responded, and also pointed out a similar pass price at Stowe - which plenty of other posters did as well. Win responded to me, and Tin, and others that he was tired of the criticism from, and left the board FOR NOW. In the BS that ensued you would have thought the world had come to an end.

Lostone, are you telling me you NEVER protested anything, never spoke your mind about something you were mad about, never went out of your way to cause consternation among people or an organization you viewed as not upholding their end of the deal (like the Estblishment or the MAN :wink: )? Have I been negative at times here? Yup. But I have also contibuted plenty of humor and praised those who deserve it in my eyes, but as usual people only see the negativity, and then accuse me of that same thing.

This just in - Criticism DOES NOT always equal NEGATIVITY.

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 01:12 PM
Yeah, I get it, but you can't argue that jokingly or not you have brought up the fact that you think you're discriminated against many, many times...

OK - so you are bringing it up again and saying that I have done so again? Please. This is similar to the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question. If you say no - you are a wife beater. If you say yes, you were STILL a wife beater.

I start to joke about the "discrimnation" to lighten up a bit, which a lot of folks seem to want me to do, and you want to just keep things the way they were...to what end? Guess it's damned if I do and damned if I don't...I'm starting to feel like Win for god's sake! :lol:

random_ski_guy
03-25-2007, 01:25 PM
Sugarborder, is it official that you are taking your business to Stowe for '07-'08? If so, what message board will you use to state your gripes? because I want to be able to keep abreast of your trials and tribulations of next season.

:lol: :lol: :lol: ...no, not official...I'll do a press release through my agent when it's been decided!



And if you move on to another mtn, will you be changing your moniker? Or will it be somethinglike "SugarboarderatStowe" or "The boarder formerly known as Sugarboarder?" Anyhow, your plight, either to stick with Sugarbush or move on is the best reality entertainment out there right now. :lol:

No offense, but I think you should try something else and my guess is that you'll be back in '08-'09 8)

Mike_451
03-25-2007, 01:25 PM
Yeah, I get it, but you can't argue that jokingly or not you have brought up the fact that you think you're discriminated against many, many times...

OK - so you are bringing it up again and saying that I have done so again? Please. This is similar to the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question. If you say no - you are a wife beater. If you say yes, you were STILL a wife beater.

I start to joke about the "discrimnation" to lighten up a bit, which a lot of folks seem to want me to do, and you want to just keep things the way they were...to what end? Guess it's damned if I do and damned if I don't...I'm starting to feel like Win for god's sake! :lol:

Geez what r u on :?

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 01:39 PM
Sugarborder, is it official that you are taking your business to Stowe for '07-'08? If so, what message board will you use to state your gripes? because I want to be able to keep abreast of your trials and tribulations of next season.

:lol: :lol: :lol: ...no, not official...I'll do a press release through my agent when it's been decided!



And if you move on to another mtn, will you be changing your moniker? Or will it be somethinglike "SugarboarderatStowe" or "The boarder formerly known as Sugarboarder?" Anyhow, your plight, either to stick with Sugarbush or move on is the best reality entertainment out there right now. :lol:

No offense, but I think you should try something else and my guess is that you'll be back in '08-'09 8)

I'm changing my name to a symbol, and getting a guitar to match! I'm also starring in "Survivor: Sugarbush" next fall! :lol:

We'll see what fall brings - I may not even be on the east coast by then...who knows? 8)

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 01:41 PM
Yeah, I get it, but you can't argue that jokingly or not you have brought up the fact that you think you're discriminated against many, many times...

OK - so you are bringing it up again and saying that I have done so again? Please. This is similar to the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question. If you say no - you are a wife beater. If you say yes, you were STILL a wife beater.

I start to joke about the "discrimnation" to lighten up a bit, which a lot of folks seem to want me to do, and you want to just keep things the way they were...to what end? Guess it's damned if I do and damned if I don't...I'm starting to feel like Win for god's sake! :lol:

Geez what r u on :?

Oh, that doesn't make sense to you? Can't help you there.

But you are right in part - I may have inhaled a bit too much high-flouro anti-static micrographite wax smoke! :lol:

Mike_451
03-25-2007, 01:50 PM
Get a life Sugarboarder 8)

sugarboarder
03-25-2007, 01:58 PM
Get a life Sugarboarder 8)

LOL - hey man you're being negative...and you WISH you had my life! :D