The Wishful Think Tank: Ideas for Meaningful SB Expansion

[MntMan4Bush]

Not only will trails get skied more, but doesn't anyone see that they will also have more people on them at any given time? Isn't that a bad thing too? If a HSQ goes in then presumably it will erase the line that was there correct. (Tiwce as many people on a chair moving at X times faster). So that means that all the people you saw stretched out to the end of VH across Spring Fling and to the condos would be on the trail with you at the same time because they would no longer be in line waiting so there would be what 100? 200? more people on the trail. Now let's say it gets brought down lower so it easier accessible for people's first run from the lodge and is more noticible. Now more people will utilize it and more people will be on those trails at the same time. I'm sorry, but I have no desire to play people slalom. It a fun game, but it hurts a bit more when you crash a "gate". If I wanted that I'd go to Kilington. I'd prefer they wait in line while I ski for a bit and I'll do them the same favor when I get down. Now I'm not saying this is all the time because it's only on Saturdays really and not all Saturdays, just holiday ones or when wind holds happen so it's rare. I would say that the majority of Saturdays (and I've been 80-90% this season) have had a 2 minute wait at the VH double during the busy times of the day (10 - noon) and practically "ski up get on" for the rest of the day. Last weekend the VH double line was bad, so I skipped it and went down to Super B. No more than 12 minutes looking at the clock for the longest wait. I actually had a 6 minute wait some how around 1 or so even though I started outside the corral. Blew my mind. Regardless I see your point that it sucks to wait in line. No one likes it and given the option, all things being the same, I'd prefer not to. But all things wouldn't be the same and it really only does become an issue maybe 4-5 times a year. I really can't remember too many times that it was that bad. Maybe I was just luck and skiing teh right chairs at that time.

By the way I've seen a little talk about opening up above Inverness. I'd love to see it. When I get there this weekened I'll hop on the I chair and hopefully by the time I get to the top the decision and plans will have all been worked out, trails built, upper chair in place and spinning and I'll be able to get a few runs in. Get it. The chair is that slow. Can't say it enough. It's actually more funny than it is frustrating. Cracks me up. In fact we should take that chair and bring it over for the VH Chair. That would solve any over crowding of the trails issues or over skied trails. Seriously though to open up some more terrain couldn't they run a tow rope line horizontally across from the top of Exterminator (and one from Paradise) that pulls you across the ridge line and you get off where ever you'd like to. Think of all the glade/tree skiing that would open up and make easily accessible. (Maybe this last paragraph could/should be split off onto a different thread. My bad)

Mod Edit: This post had two distinct thoughts, but I didn't want to delete anything so I've simply separated the bottom paragraph and highlighted its contents. I think people get the general idea...

-TW

[madhavok]

MntMan4Bush, I'd like to see some new terrain open up too. But today’s environmentalists just aren’t going to let that happen. It has really just got nutty.

How many years did Sugarbush try to expand so you could ski from LP to ME? In the end all they got was a chairlift and even then those whack jobs only gave them like 48 hours to cut the lift line because the black bears started critical feeding on beechnuts or some load of BS. If I remember right, the day the workers had stop their chainsaws so the black bears could feed was the same time they could get their hunting licenses and rifles and go back into slide brook to shoot them! Go figure.

[MntMan4Bush]

LMAO MadHavok. Nearly had coffee spit all over my desk.

[Tin Woodsman]

MntMan4Bush, I'd like to see some new terrain open up too. But today’s environmentalists just aren’t going to let that happen. It has really just got nutty.

How many years did Sugarbush try to expand so you could ski from LP to ME? In the end all they got was a chairlift and even then those whack jobs only gave them like 48 hours to cut the lift line because the black bears started critical feeding on beechnuts or some load of BS. If I remember right, the day the workers had stop their chainsaws so the black bears could feed was the same time they could get their hunting licenses and rifles and go back into slide brook to shoot them! Go figure.

A couple of key differences exist on this one though. First, upper Inverness is all on private land. While some of Slide Brook was private, I don't believe all of it was. Second, upper Inverness is relatively small compared to the vast Slide Brook Basin, the latter comprising an area large enough to support a major population of bears. Both of those facts make the potential development of Slide Brook materially diffrerent from an environmental perspective. Finaly, you always get further when you ask nicely. ASC and previous owners didn't necessarily have the ability to do so. Summit Ventures has proven that they do, and they've built a reservoir of goodwill with various local interest groups as a result. If they want to do it, and can make a convincing case for it, it's certainly within the realm of possibility for them to make it happen.

[MntMan4Bush]

Tin - Any chance we can spin the last few post regarding expansion off into a new thread. I'd love to hear people's creative ideas for expansion and maybe hear if Win has any thoughts mixing around. I know there was one earlier dedicated to just the Inverness lift, but would my idea of a tow rope across the ridges be such a bad idea? I'm not proposing having it go straight down the long trail, but maybe cut in across the line from Paradise to Church and one from Exterminator across for a ways. A rope tow would probably be cheaper to cut in, install and maintain then a full lift right? For North the North Ridge chair is great and could feed that. For Paradise maybe the HG chair would need an upgrade to service that terrain.

Let's get a wishful thinking think tank going here.

[Strat]

I really don't think anyone would support easier access to off-the-map glades... but a chairlift and developed trails would be a different story completely...

[kcyanks1]

Tin - Any chance we can spin the last few post regarding expansion off into a new thread. I'd love to hear people's creative ideas for expansion and maybe hear if Win has any thoughts mixing around. I know there was one earlier dedicated to just the Inverness lift, but would my idea of a tow rope across the ridges be such a bad idea? I'm not proposing having it go straight down the long trail, but maybe cut in across the line from Paradise to Church and one from Exterminator across for a ways. A rope tow would probably be cheaper to cut in, install and maintain then a full lift right? For North the North Ridge chair is great and could feed that. For Paradise maybe the HG chair would need an upgrade to service that terrain.

Let's get a wishful thinking think tank going here.

I haven't skied the glades off Exterminator, but I don't see the reason for anything going from Paradise to Church. Traversing over on the Long Trail is actually quite easy, and for a good amount of the way from Paradise toward Church you don't need to even do any work...it is a slight decline for a little while. (This is without even addressing the issues of increasing the skier traffic in those areas, finding a place for the lift, spending on the lift, etc.)

[MntMan4Bush]

I wasn't really talking about a lift up there, but more a tow rope "over" there. I know it isn't that much work to get in, but if teh area is focused then maybe more maintenance will be done to clear out more deadfall and make more areas ski-able in there. Then since the tow takes you out to a point and stops we can begin exploring even further out on our own. I was really just trying to come up with some idea with how to expand teh skiing area without throwing in a bunch of new defined trails as such. It seems that a lot more people are taking to the woods. Even ski schools and kids groups are touring the trees. If we expand it some then perhaps they won't get so crowded by making more available. I'm not talking about turning them into Oz at Sunday River, although when that first opened it was pretty nice, but maybe a bit tighter. Just wishful thinking is all. I'd rather see that then wide trails carved in somewhere.

[kcyanks1]

I wasn't really talking about a lift up there, but more a tow rope "over" there. I know it isn't that much work to get in, but if teh area is focused then maybe more maintenance will be done to clear out more deadfall and make more areas ski-able in there. Then since the tow takes you out to a point and stops we can begin exploring even further out on our own. I was really just trying to come up with some idea with how to expand teh skiing area without throwing in a bunch of new defined trails as such. It seems that a lot more people are taking to the woods. Even ski schools and kids groups are touring the trees. If we expand it some then perhaps they won't get so crowded by making more available. I'm not talking about turning them into Oz at Sunday River, although when that first opened it was pretty nice, but maybe a bit tighter. Just wishful thinking is all. I'd rather see that then wide trails carved in somewhere.

I see what you are saying, but I think that area between Paradise and Castlerock is nice as is--though I admit I haven't explored much of it, and have never gone passed the Church. The next thing over I know of is the Saddle, but I don't know much about the difficulty level and don't want to get in over my head. Could anyone provide insight here? I'm not asking for anything about getting there or locating it, just an idea of how hard challenging it is. I'm also not sure how much more of a hike it is to get out to the Saddle.

Cleaning up the woods is always nice, but how much is it needed? I haven't been to SB this year unfortunately. Last year when I was there in late Feb I did hit some stuff underneath and get tripped up by some lying branches, but I think it was an unusually low base depth at the time. The previous couple years the woods were generally good during my visits. During a normal year, is it that bad enough that cleaning is in issue?

Even if a lift would lead to cleaning, I don't think it's worth it. First, the increased traffic would probably degrade the skiing. Second, that terrain is currently unmaintained and unpatroled. We are allowed to ski it, but under the off-trail policy where we are essentially on our own. Adding a lift would sanction skiing there to a different level, and would possibly open up the ski area to additional liability and/or require the patrol to do a lot more work. I guess they could stick a sign before the lift saying that this is off-trail, unpatroled, unmaintained terrain, but I've really never seen anything like that.

The most I would support would be an advertised traverse. The American Ski Company was planning to do exactly that (check the maps on Strat's page and the sugarbush history site set up by BushMogulMaster). The traverse would go below the Church, which is probably a good idea, because they probably should not sanction any traverse that leads directly to the Church, as people might get over their heads without knowing what they are getting into.

[HowieT2]

What about opening some terrain between North Lynx and Castlerock. It seems that the North Lynx chair is underutilized. Furthermore, it is my understanding that any new lodge would be at the confluence of the GH, SB and North Lynx. I've skied the woods over there and they were pretty nice. Cutting a narrow trail from the top of NL to the Castlerock connection would really open things up and give more incentive to use NL.

[Tin Woodsman]

What about opening some terrain between North Lynx and Castlerock. It seems that the North Lynx chair is underutilized. Furthermore, it is my understanding that any new lodge would be at the confluence of the GH, SB and North Lynx. I've skied the woods over there and they were pretty nice. Cutting a narrow trail from the top of NL to the Castlerock connection would really open things up and give more incentive to use NL.

It would also face due south and not have potential for snowmaking without a serious investment. If I had to look into the crystal ball, I'd wager that SB will end up bringing some of that area "on-map" to a degree. That would spread people out a bit more while unfortunately denuding the tree skiing experience fairly significantly.

[MntMan4Bush]

Perhaps they would have one "boundary" trail on the skiers far right. A bit of a traverse over and then a nice narrow trail down to the ocnnector. I often times swing into those trees, but am cautious about how far over I go so I don't end up in the brook (or whatever feature is in that valley) and miss the connector. A trail would help deifne that boundary. No additional work or maintenance would need to be done in the wooded area itself. Maybe a little dead fall clearing every now and again.

[HowieT2]

Perhaps they would have one "boundary" trail on the skiers far right. A bit of a traverse over and then a nice narrow trail down to the ocnnector. I often times swing into those trees, but am cautious about how far over I go so I don't end up in the brook (or whatever feature is in that valley) and miss the connector. A trail would help deifne that boundary. No additional work or maintenance would need to be done in the wooded area itself. Maybe a little dead fall clearing every now and again.

I'm always scared of hitting that Brooke too, but the snow in there presidents week was fantastic. I wasn't thinking of snowmaking and given the exposure, a narrow trail which maintains some shade seems appropriate.