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View Full Version : Poor lift operations at Sugarbush during the big dump days..



neilkamman
02-16-2007, 09:12 PM
I am not sure how to articulate this post and remain positive, which I want to do.

We just incurred the largest, most epic winter storm in several years. I am a long-tem local who has seen several such storms pass over the years. This was top-three in the last 20 years. Major! We have 30+ inches of new snow in the woods.

I am somewhere between surprised and appalled at the operations at the mountain over this biggest of possible sets of days for the 'Bush this year. Yesterday, the entire mountain save GH was shut down, despite suitable conditions on NorthLink, Valley House, Inverness. Guests were informed of windholds. Yes it was very windy, but that was NOT the only problem. It seemed clearer to me that there were significant staffing shortages. And let's give the guys a break - there was SO much snow to shovel out. But that said, some odd and uncoordinated menagement decisions were made. As a prime example, the Monte-Carlo style mad-dash to Castlerock once that finally opened at 11:00 was unsafe and stupid. It would have been SO much more civilized for patrol to allow guests to ski out there and wait in line at the lift. What harm there after all? Who knows how many skiiers took poles in the eyes during the powder-fever mad-dash to the base of the Rock. If I wanted a nordic race, I'd do the Stowe Derby.

Well, that all is moderately understandable for Thursday. After all, it took me 1 3/4 hrs of shoveline just to get my car out of my driveway Thursday morning.

But... then there was today (Friday). Today, incomprehensibly, and despite cars down to Lot D/E at South (or wherever - almost to the Paradise deli), we only had GH, Bravo, Castlerock, and GMX (occasionally), and North-Summit to choose from. We did not have: Heaven's Gate, North Link, North Ridge (??!???!?), Slide Bk for all day, and Inverness and the GMX for a key period in the morning. Once again - windholds were the reason the Mtn Ambassadors provided us. Yet... the winds were running no higher than 20 in the am, and 15 in the pm, and still the lifts stayed closed.

This fall, I made the switch from MRG to Sugarbush - deciding that spending the extra $$ on the Bush pass would be worthwhile. On the most epic week of the season, Sugarbush could not even run 1/2 it's modern fleet of lifts. At MRG - the single and double ran nonstop through the period. The lack of ops at Valley House is probably the most egregious example of not providing the services promised to the mountain guests. Sugarbush management...why are you not running your lifts???

Travelers from points south beware...you will not find a mountain at full ops when you arrive Saturday Morning.

While I am really no-one of consequence, I'd surely be curious at a response from mountain management about the ops in the last couple of days.

Regards,
Neil K.

Lostone
02-16-2007, 09:38 PM
I don't know what the wind was like at the top of those lifts today, because I never got up them. But feeling the winds at the top of Bravo and Gatehouse, I don't doubt the veracity of the windholds. I have heard people saying there was no wind at the gottom, and having the same person almost blown down, but the wind, at the top of Gatehouse.

I really doubt that they were low staffed. They're geared up for what they are hoping and expecting to be a big week. They have the people to run all the lifts... at the same time.

As stated in this forum, word of mouth is one of the best advertisements. If people have a good experience, they tell others. They want others to say good things. They want everyone to have the best experience they can. They want the lifts to all run.

BushMogulMaster
02-16-2007, 09:51 PM
First off, I'm not a Sugarbush employee. But I can respond to some of your concerns.


I am not sure how to articulate this post and remain positive, which I want to do.

We just incurred the largest, most epic winter storm in several years. I am a long-tem local who has seen several such storms pass over the years. This was top-three in the last 20 years. Major! We have 30+ inches of new snow in the woods.

I am somewhere between surprised and appalled at the operations at the mountain over this biggest of possible sets of days for the 'Bush this year. Yesterday, the entire mountain save GH was shut down, despite suitable conditions on NorthLink, Valley House, Inverness. Guests were informed of windholds. Yes it was very windy, but that was NOT the only problem. It seemed clearer to me that there were significant staffing shortages. And let's give the guys a break - there was SO much snow to shovel out.

Actually, wind was the problem with the rest of the mountain, including North Lynx, and Inverness. Valley House only runs on Saturdays and holidays, so it was not planned to be run anyway. On days when windholds are a problem, the mountain keeps lift operators at every scheduled lift for most of the day, even if it isn't running. They're there so that if the winds die down, the lifts can be open ASAP. There is always ample staff for full ops during the week. They may have been down a couple of people due to very poor road conditions, but that cannot be blamed on the mountain.


But that said, some odd and uncoordinated menagement decisions were made. As a prime example, the Monte-Carlo style mad-dash to Castlerock once that finally opened at 11:00 was unsafe and stupid. It would have been SO much more civilized for patrol to allow guests to ski out there and wait in line at the lift. What harm there after all? Who knows how many skiiers took poles in the eyes during the powder-fever mad-dash to the base of the Rock. If I wanted a nordic race, I'd do the Stowe Derby.

I wasn't there yesterday, so can't speak to that.


But... then there was today (Friday). Today, incomprehensibly, and despite cars down to Lot D/E at South (or wherever - almost to the Paradise deli), we only had GH, Bravo, Castlerock, and GMX (occasionally), and North-Summit to choose from. We did not have: Heaven's Gate, North Link, North Ridge (??!???!?), Slide Bk for all day, and Inverness and the GMX for a key period in the morning. Once again - windholds were the reason the Mtn Ambassadors provided us. Yet... the winds were running no higher than 20 in the am, and 15 in the pm, and still the lifts stayed closed.

The winds were stronger than you think, neilkamman. Steady winds were 15-25, but there was gusting up to around 60mph. That creates a very dangerous situation for running a ski lift. Also, you need to understand that the wind speed isn't the only factor. Wind direction is even more important. If the wind, as it did much of the day today, blows across the chairs, it can cause legit wind holds at seemingly low winds. It's for your safety... believe me.

Also... Slide Brook only runs weekends and holidays, so you can't expect it during the week.

GMX was spotty this morning, but I believe it was for technical difficulties. They do their best to keep things running smoothly, but you can't always predict problems with chairlifts. They're very complicated animals. North Ridge appeared to either be on a legit wind hold, or also having mechanical problems (fairly certain this was the issue). I saw it begin to spin many times, and then stop. Can't say they didn't try. The effort was there, the luck and conditions were not. Once again, not management's fault.


This fall, I made the switch from MRG to Sugarbush - deciding that spending the extra $$ on the Bush pass would be worthwhile. On the most epic week of the season, Sugarbush could not even run 1/2 it's modern fleet of lifts. At MRG - the single and double ran nonstop through the period. The lack of ops at Valley House is probably the most egregious example of not providing the services promised to the mountain guests. Sugarbush management...why are you not running your lifts???

Actually, you're wrong about MRG... I skied there yesterday, and the Single was down on wind hold on and off for quite a while all morning. One of the reasons that MRG's lifts can often run when the Bush's cannot is because they are quite a bit lower to the ground, and all fixed grip. Also, the Bush's modern lifts are equipped with many more technologically advanced computers and sensors, which, unfortunately, can cause interruptions in operation more often than an older lift without these important SAFETY features.

As I pointed out earlier, Valley House is simply not scheduled to run during the week. Don't expect it to. Win has discussed this several times on the forum.


Travelers from points south beware...you will not find a mountain at full ops when you arrive Saturday Morning.

Absolutely not true. Tomorrow is not supposed to be too windy (and the wind will be from the west, thus down the chairs), so wind hold should not stop the lifts too much tomorrow. If anything is down tomorrow, it is for mechanical/technical reasons, and absolutely NOT because of lack of staffing. If there are lift problems, I assure you they will be addressed in the timeliest fashions possible.

Travelers from points south: come to the Bush, because you'll have the time of your life. The mountain will be perfect tomorrow! :D

castlerock
02-17-2007, 07:27 AM
Give me one even remotely probable reason why any mountain would not run a scheduled chairlift, other than mechanical or wind hold.

You can't do it. It runs counter to any sane ethos. The entire concept of the post is inane.

Go back to Mad River. Wait in line for the single and bathe in the purity of the experience.

(EDIT: I came back to this post to tone it down, as I don't want it to come off too harsh. But then I read the "travelers from points south" comment. And it reinforces the sillyness of the post. $5 (I'm a big gambler) the lift report says 16/16 by 9:00 AM)

beelze
02-17-2007, 09:51 AM
Yes, it has been windy around here.. in fact I was surprised they managed to keep HG open on Wed. as it
was near gale force at times the top 100 yards or so.

In regards yesterday - there is no excuse not to run Valley House during a weekday when you have closed
other lifts for wind and/or mechanical reasons. Gatehouse was stop and go at points making lines longer
than needed at Bravo and quite frankly during a holiday week or other 'busy' time (as noted the lots were
full) this lift should be running if for no other reasons than a) a better skiier experience (less wait time) and
b) less crowding on the traverse (particularly by those who are only holiday skiiers).

In regards Mt.Ellen - I have heard GMX had mechanical problems on Wed which may (or may not) be serious.
However, yesterday North Ridge was not listed as WH but listed as CLOSED. I had wanted to go to Mt Ellen
but was not willing to chance Summit being closed for wind and then no way to get higher than Inverness.
I do not accept another posters 'explanation' that this is not a management problem. North Ridge has been
a constant source of problems for the past 6 years - I think it fair to say it is and has been the lift most likely
to break down (with GMX seemingly a close second). This most certainly falls under a management failing -
either their past maintenance programs have been insufficient or they are willing to accept (at your
detriment) a lift which is not as reliable as others on the mountain.

Lastly, in regards to management not running lifts - yes there is a reason beyond wind/mechanical. They
want to keep the terrain in as good a shape as possible for the busy weekend when the crowds will
remember the 'awesome' conditions. Of course they can't get away with something like that if there is
truly no wind but I do believe they are more than happy to shut the lift down at the first sign of trouble and
keep it closed. Afterall, if you are there on a Thursday or Friday you are probably a passholder (they have
your money already) or a local (who may be annoyed but probably will be back again and have already paid
for a ticket). And before you dismiss this as out of hand, consider the total disregard for those same
skiiers with snowmaking ahead of the weekend. SB constantly blows snow on traverses and lift exits
during the day in disregard to skiier experience - something that should be done from 4pm to 8am, not
8am to 4pm. But again, the objective is to make it 'nice' for the weekend crowd even if that means
inconvenience for paying customers on Thur/Fri.

So as not to be too harsh, I do think they have made some good strides this year in mountain managment but
there are still a few 'small things' they do (or fail to do) which lessen the experience.

castlerock
02-17-2007, 10:10 AM
Lastly, in regards to management not running lifts - yes there is a reason beyond wind/mechanical. They
want to keep the terrain in as good a shape as possible for the busy weekend when the crowds will
remember the 'awesome' conditions. Of course they can't get away with something like that if there is
truly no wind but I do believe they are more than happy to shut the lift down at the first sign of trouble and
keep it closed. Afterall, if you are there on a Thursday or Friday you are probably a passholder (they have
your money already) or a local (who may be annoyed but probably will be back again and have already paid
for a ticket). And before you dismiss this as out of hand, consider the total disregard for those same
skiiers with snowmaking ahead of the weekend. SB constantly blows snow on traverses and lift exits
during the day in disregard to skiier experience - something that should be done from 4pm to 8am, not
8am to 4pm. But again, the objective is to make it 'nice' for the weekend crowd even if that means
inconvenience for paying customers on Thur/Fri.

So as not to be too harsh, I do think they have made some good strides this year in mountain managment but
there are still a few 'small things' they do (or fail to do) which lessen the experience.

All right I'll take these in reverse order:

As a pass holder who is here every weekend/holiday weeks plus opportunistic days throughout the season (including the last three). I have sat many times on Bravo getting cased in snow. Skied under guns on Ripcord and Steins. Ski in NE long enough and you'll get used to it. Snowmaking is snowmaking, it goes on all the time, everywhere, when it can. In addition it is expensive to move and shut down guns. It is a challenge to make snow, and guest inconvenience, all week and weekend, is a by product.

I also don't buy the save the snow for the weekend baloney. Anything exposed to the wind and ungroomed, NEEDED skier traffic to make it more skiable, expecially for the variety of ability levels they will see today.

neilkamman
02-17-2007, 10:44 AM
OK...OK... Thanks to all who responded. I get much of what was said by nearly all of you.

I do seem to have touched a major nerve with "Castlerock" though. No sir, I will not go to MRG and "Bathe in it's purity." You called my post inane. I call it an expression of major frustration at being stymied in my efforts to experience the best VT has had in years. Instructing me to go spend my $ at MRG is inane. But I am sure you are a good guy and so am I so let's leave it at that.

And the people will come regardless of what I said.

The only thing I will say is that I still do not understand why Valley House would not be run on a weekday even despite the weekend-only scheduling. If there are holds elsewhere, why not flexibly manage the lifts accordingly to maximize mtn usage? I guess I can get my answer to that from Win's prior posts.

And yes - that said, the trip up Bravo, even with lines, was pretty fast. VH Traverse is still a PITA.

I hope everyone has fun while am stuck at the homestead today.

castlerock
02-17-2007, 11:18 AM
OK...OK... Thanks to all who responded. I get much of what was said by nearly all of you.

But I am sure you are a good guy and so am I so let's leave it at that.

Thanks, I try to avoid flame wars at all cost. I had one once a long time ago and I felt uneasy for days. You are probably right about hitting a nerve, I love Mad River, I love Sugarbush. I just had a bad experience or two with individuals...Every place has em.

I just can't wait until Tuesday.....

neilkamman
02-17-2007, 12:26 PM
OK...OK... Thanks to all who responded. I get much of what was said by nearly all of you.

But I am sure you are a good guy and so am I so let's leave it at that.

Thanks, I try to avoid flame wars at all cost. I had one once a long time ago and I felt uneasy for days. You are probably right about hitting a nerve, I love Mad River, I love Sugarbush. I just had a bad experience or two with individuals...Every place has em.

I just can't wait until Tuesday.....

We should both be skiing instead of being on the machine. If I were doing real work, I'd have an excuse... Cheers, see you on the mtn.
Neil

castlerock
02-17-2007, 12:41 PM
We should both be skiing instead of being on the machine.
Neil

I don't know....., have you been near the Lincoln Peak today.....It is ugly.

MntMan4Bush
02-19-2007, 02:04 PM
Well I was a bit frustrated on Saturday about the lifts, but the conditions quickly changed my mood. Items of note:

- The Heaven's Gate chair was down for mechanical reasons in the morning. It wasn't windhold. (Castlerock I'm sorry but you would have been out $5 on your 16/16 call, but I agree with most of what you said above)

- The North Linx chair was also down for a bit in the morning although not too long, but long enough to have me severely worried as I stood in line with about 500 other people at the Gate House chair with 2 lifts down and the busiest weekend of the year.

- The Castlerock chair had the traverse roped off at the top so everyone started gathering up there. When patrol showed up everyone was crowding the top and ducking under the rope waitng for the "nod" to go. The poor patroller couldn't even let the rope down on the left because everyone took off like a Chinese Downhill. She almost got knocked over as we stood and waited for the group of pole flailing powder crazed idiots to thin out. One guy skied over the line and got wrapped up, wiping out and nearly taking out about 10 people near him. Of course two things are the cause here. 1) The main which disgusts me the most is how people acted. It really was embarressing. I like making first tracks as much as the next guy, but I don't plan on hip checking anyone in teh woods to get them. There was plenty of freshies to go around. 2) Why couldn't we all wait in line at the lift like we used. When did this change and why? I'd judge it a safety concern.

The lifts finally did get back up, but because of the power outage I never got back over to them. The conditions that day were incredible so I could easily smile through the whole thing while waiting in lines, but it just seems like either bad luck or poor maintenance that on the busiest day two chairs were down for any period of time. Those bad boys should have ben spinning non stop. I even thought they should get some old style Warren Miller movie lifties out there chucking kids to the side when they fall and throwing skis around to keep the lifts moving. Wouldn't that have been csasic.

ski_resort_observer
02-19-2007, 04:12 PM
And before you dismiss this as out of hand, consider the total disregard for those same
skiiers with snowmaking ahead of the weekend. SB constantly blows snow on traverses and lift exits
during the day in disregard to skiier experience - something that should be done from 4pm to 8am, not
8am to 4pm. But again, the objective is to make it 'nice' for the weekend crowd even if that means
inconvenience for paying customers on Thur/Fri.


It's ironic that in the ASC days people complained that snowmaking shut down too early. Rarely did snowmaking go much into February during those years before SV took over.

As it was mentioned if the daytime hours gives you good snowmaking weather conditions you have to make it somewhere. If they closed the trails they are blowing on people would complain that those trails are closed. The Bush picks trails and makes alot of snow there and then moves on. Chances are they were still making snow on the terrain you mentioned 4-8PM and probably beyond. IMHO that MO of doing it does take more patience but I think the results of getting 100% weeks ago and staying 100% before the big storm speaks for itself.

It's understood that skiing thru it can be a hassle for some, but when considering the bigger picture it has to be done. Instead of "disregarding" the customer the Bush is actually doing the complete opposite at least by my way of totally biased thinking. :D

MntMan4Bush
02-19-2007, 07:33 PM
I agree with SRO. It wasn't too long ago that everyone was complaining that not enough snow was being blown and now people are saying too much. I hope SB continues to blow snow and does it 24 hours a day. That will help ensure a longer season at the end and in between good conditions. They usually only blow on a couple of trails (When the cover was poor I though too few) and there is always comparable terrain and trails that are not being blown on. Take Steins for example. The week they focused on that it turned out to be a sweet run.

random_ski_guy
02-19-2007, 07:49 PM
I third SRO and MtnMan4Bush for exactly the same reasons. There is never a bad time to blow snow; except for during a ski race perhaps, or when it's above freezing. There are probably other exceptions. :wink:

BushMogulMaster
02-19-2007, 08:03 PM
or when it's above freezing.

Yeah, that might be a problem :lol:

Of course, the Ratnik SnowGiant II will blow small amounts of snow at up to 48 degrees assuming no humidity!

sugarboarder
02-19-2007, 09:36 PM
There is never a bad time to blow snow; except for during a ski race perhaps...

They've done that too...they're good, but not perfect...oh well. Complaints were lodged on this one too so I expect that it will be looked into and the next time will be different, as with other "issues" that are being addressed! :)

madhavok
02-20-2007, 01:30 PM
I've noticed that the chair lifts at SB seem to go down more often the past couple of years (particularly Super Bravo and North Ridge this year, Gate House last year). I was talking to someone allegedly familiar with SB and they credited this to the fact Sugarbush no longer has a maintenance contract with POMA. Does anyone know for sure that SB no longer has a maintenance contract with POMA or was this guy pulling my leg?

BushMogulMaster
02-20-2007, 04:40 PM
I've noticed that the chair lifts at SB seem to go down more often the past couple of years (particularly Super Bravo and North Ridge this year, Gate House last year). I was talking to someone allegedly familiar with SB and they credited this to the fact Sugarbush no longer has a maintenance contract with POMA. Does anyone know for sure that SB no longer has a maintenance contract with POMA or was this guy pulling my leg?

I don't know for sure, but I do know that POMA was here about a week ago, whether it was under contract or not... I don't know.