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View Full Version : Valley House: Where the traverse meets the chair



TimKeogh
02-12-2007, 01:07 PM
Saw yet another wipeout there Saturday. Too many people come flying down the traverse into that icy patch and wipe out into people coming off the chair.

This has probably been discussed before but, I wish there was some way to prevent this.

I make sure to use caution, go slow, and look out for other reckless people....

skigal
02-12-2007, 01:20 PM
I don't think people are necessarily being reckless. If you are not familiar with the area it can come as quite a surprise. A nice flat cross over....then wham!...nothing but ice. I'm not sure what the answer is....maybe more caution signs from ski patrol? The one they post there doesn't seem to be very effective.

Hardbooter
02-12-2007, 01:34 PM
I'm pretty sure that Sugarbush intends to fix that intersection when they upgrade the chair. The best solution would be to set up a big flat exit area with access to both sides so skiers exiting the chair and heading for snowball don't have to pass under the chair. Also, I recommend that you tell people not to stand or sit in the middle of the trail there. More than once I've seen people ski up and stop right where the chair passes overhead. I've even seen snowboarders sitting there and I've had friends hurt at that intersection.
As a snowboarder, I give you official snowboarder permission to yell at any snowboarder that you see sitting in that area.

MntMan4Bush
02-12-2007, 01:36 PM
Well all skiers/riders should remember to ski in control, but that ice can be surprising I agree. I think apart from a guy standing there with a taser it will continue to be a problem. Perhaps when they extend the lift they can have the chair exit on the other side. Anyone wanting to do Steins or Maul would have to cut back over, but perhaps it may help some. Also the people who are on the lift need to be equaly responsible. Often times people will come off the lift and pile up there checking boots, talking and getting ready forcing others to ski further out onto the trail sometimes unaware there are people coming. Maybe there needs to be a sign for those exiting to be aware of traffic coming from their left.

shadyjay
02-12-2007, 05:32 PM
I'm pretty sure that Sugarbush intends to fix that intersection when they upgrade the chair. The best solution would be to set up a big flat exit area with access to both sides so skiers exiting the chair and heading for snowball don't have to pass under the chair. Also, I recommend that you tell people not to stand or sit in the middle of the trail there. More than once I've seen people ski up and stop right where the chair passes overhead. I've even seen snowboarders sitting there and I've had friends hurt at that intersection.
As a snowboarder, I give you official snowboarder permission to yell at any snowboarder that you see sitting in that area.
- Alex

Sunday saw people flying through there. I got out of the way on the hill side and waited for the cluster____ to pass by. If anyone hit me, it would be their own fault for trying to hit off the hillside at one of the worst intersections on the mtn. If I make a pitstop on a trail, I always make sure I'm over as far as I can go - even off in the woods a bit.

A nice flat exit area would be nice, requiring some more clearing at the top of the chair so that the unload could be moved closer to the Mall side and thru traffic routed rider's right while heading down VHT into Snowball.

-Jay

win
02-12-2007, 06:50 PM
It is the worst spot on the Hill. Until we move the lift (with Forest Service permission) it is very difficult to keep this in good shape all day. the grade and narrowness of the trail are the problem. We are going to till it deeply either tonight or tomorrow and with some new snow it should groom out better for at least the weekend. The key here is to ski or ride it very carefully. This is one spot where I personally slow down to a crawl before I get there.

Tin Woodsman
02-12-2007, 06:55 PM
There are a lot of problems with that intersection, and it's not just the traffic from VHT meeting the people off-loading from VH chair. That area is lousy even when VH chair is closed! The problem is that the VHT begins to gradually slope downwards towards the end, such that you are probably travelling as fast as you've been since the beginning of the trail just at the point where you round the corner and BAM! The slope gets steeper, there are people waiting around trying to figure out what to do, and you have this visual of the VH chair terminal screwing with your head/sitelines. You start to skid to slow down, and the cycle worsens b/c the man-made garbage there turns to boilerplate by 10:00 on a weekend morning.

The ultimate answer will require a few different steps and no small amount of TNT. First, that entire area needs to be expanded and re-graded. You can't go from semi-flat to downhill right at the bend in the trail. That corner also needs to be blown up so that skiers can have a visual of the area as they approach it. Then you combine these changes with a re-routed offload for the VH chair and you'll be in business. Skiers should be able to exit from both sides so that those that want to go to Snowball can take a left while those going for the Mall and Stein's can take a right. I don't think that area will ever be perfect, but those changes, along with extending VH chair down to the base (hence more people will take it directly instead of traversing from Bravo summit), will probably make it as good as it can be given the layout.

win
02-12-2007, 08:10 PM
Tin? Are you Win? Your answers are getting too good!

freeheel_skier
02-12-2007, 08:10 PM
The ultimate answer will require a few different steps and no small amount of TNT.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Every good plan needs a lot of TNT! :lol:

Lostone
02-12-2007, 08:50 PM
This is one spot where I personally slow down to a crawl before I get there.

I have noticed a pattern there, from a lot of the regulars. For a while, I have always checked over my shoulder, as I came near the caution sign. Lately, I've been following a couple others, and noticed they do the same thing. I also make some wide turns, as I come up to it, to slow those behind me.

It is definitely an area to pull it way in. Just too many skis going thru the same small amount of space. :roll:

Yard Sale
02-12-2007, 09:20 PM
Tin? Are you Win? Your answers are getting too good!

Win Toodsman

Tin Woodsman
02-12-2007, 11:19 PM
Tin? Are you Win? Your answers are getting too good!

Win Toodsman

:shock:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

random_ski_guy
02-12-2007, 11:22 PM
We have Tin to fill in for Win

Mike_451
02-13-2007, 12:28 AM
And a Win Tin Tin, and a Tin Win Win, and a Win Tin, Tin Win, Win Tin Tin :P

Fourwide
02-13-2007, 08:53 AM
Please give us all plenty of notice of this--perhaps a website posting.

Another interesting phenomenon I've noticed on VHT is that of skiers, seemingly under control and well short of the lift, inexplicably losing traction and tumbling off into the trees on skiers' left. Perhaps the VHT cants a bit right to left? Very odd. It's a very exciting place indeed!

sugarboarder
02-13-2007, 09:33 AM
An "S" gate with ropes and sticks and orange warning signs would be cheap and effective for now. You could place it on VHT BEFORE the corner and left fallaway - would totally slow people down coming down VHT. Vail had them at ALL big intersections when I was there - and added an on-post ski patroller there on the really busy days.

MntMan4Bush
02-13-2007, 09:44 AM
I remember earlier this season when Spills just opened and you had to use Paradise Runout to get back to Deathspout and down to the lift. At the end of the runout where it intersected a patroller was putting up a rope line so you had to come to a complete stop almost and this Joey was in front of me and almost hit the rope. He then proceeded to start yelling of how he was almost killed (definite flair for the dramatic). The Patrol just looked at him and said "Ski in control". Couldn't agree more. It was a run out. Now that section does get icy, but if you slow down right before it you can easily be in control when you get to it. Perhaps the sign needs to be a bit further back and say "Slow Down - Ice & Intersection Ahead". There also needs to be one for the people on the lift because they don't always look before they come out.

sugarboarder
02-13-2007, 02:35 PM
I remember earlier this season when Spills just opened and you had to use Paradise Runout to get back to Deathspout and down to the lift. At the end of the runout where it intersected a patroller was putting up a rope line so you had to come to a complete stop almost and this Joey was in front of me and almost hit the rope. He then proceeded to start yelling of how he was almost killed (definite flair for the dramatic). The Patrol just looked at him and said "Ski in control". Couldn't agree more. It was a run out. Now that section does get icy, but if you slow down right before it you can easily be in control when you get to it. Perhaps the sign needs to be a bit further back and say "Slow Down - Ice & Intersection Ahead". There also needs to be one for the people on the lift because they don't always look before they come out.

An "S" gate with ropes and sticks and orange warning signs would be cheap and effective for now. You could place it on VHT BEFORE the corner and left fallaway - would totally slow people down coming down VHT. Vail had them at ALL big intersections when I was there - and added an on-post ski patroller there on the really busy days.

OK - then we need the plastic material snow fencing on the "S" gate for Joey and his pals. :)

Mike_451
02-13-2007, 04:00 PM
Yeah, got to have the plastic snowfence to keep joey from plowing it down.


How about temporarily grading flattening this area out with snowmaking, and grooming?

beelze
02-17-2007, 10:13 AM
sometimes a rope alone is hard to pickup until you are just on it...

VHT is a pain at the end but not much can be done except maybe putting up a few warning signs before the
icy stretch and a 'keep moving' sign on the traverse side of the chair exit. Perhaps also larger/better signage
for <Steins> would keep people moving who are unfamilar with the mountain.

As to the gentleman who likes to make wide turns on the traverse (in theory to slow down others) - please don't
do that, it is dangerous. You are needlessly changing the expectations of those behind you on a narrow flat trail where the ability to maneuver is greatly reduced. Perhaps in an ideal world nobody will be so near your side or behind you for this to matter, but we all know ideal is not real world. Unless you are ski patrol please don't play
traffic cop.

Lostone
02-17-2007, 12:37 PM
I'm not playing traffic cop. I'm giving them warning that they need to slow down. If they can't, they are not properly in control.

When you get to that corner, you might have to do anything, from traverse to either side to coming to a dead stop. Those behind shoudl be ready for that.

Today's problem was people lined up, not at the end of the trail, looking down Mall. We had people on the left thinking about (and discussing) Stein's, further on the left, looking down Mall, on the right, stopped, and people snowplowing thru the entrance to Snowball. :shock:

I need the people behind me to be going slow enough to react to what I have to react to, and my reactions.

I'll stick with my system. I'd rather they break early than find out they have to, when it is too late for them to react.

sugarboarder
02-17-2007, 12:50 PM
I'm not playing traffic cop. I'm giving them warning that they need to slow down. If they can't, they are not properly in control.

When you get to that corner, you might have to do anything, from traverse to either side to coming to a dead stop. Those behind shoudl be ready for that.

Today's problem was people lined up, not at the end of the trail, looking down Mall. We had people on the left thinking about (and discussing) Stein's, further on the left, looking down Mall, on the right, stopped, and people snowplowing thru the entrance to Snowball. :shock:

I need the people behind me to be going slow enough to react to what I have to react to, and my reactions.

I'll stick with my system. I'd rather they break early than find out they have to, when it is too late for them to react.

Not a problem if you want to carve turns on VH traverse - but when I come up behind you to pass, and say "on your right/left", I would expect you to clear that side. :)

Abe Froman
02-17-2007, 01:03 PM
I'm not playing traffic cop. I'm giving them warning that they need to slow down. If they can't, they are not properly in control.

When you get to that corner, you might have to do anything, from traverse to either side to coming to a dead stop. Those behind shoudl be ready for that.

Today's problem was people lined up, not at the end of the trail, looking down Mall. We had people on the left thinking about (and discussing) Stein's, further on the left, looking down Mall, on the right, stopped, and people snowplowing thru the entrance to Snowball. :shock:

I need the people behind me to be going slow enough to react to what I have to react to, and my reactions.

I'll stick with my system. I'd rather they break early than find out they have to, when it is too late for them to react.

You really can't ski, speak or think for others. :? I'll go on the assumption that you are not.

However, your behavior is like when a Trooper is driving 60mph on the interstate and all the cars pile up behind him/her. The Trooper is setting the pace. Basically telling everyone to slow down. In essence Lostone you are playing traffic cop. Try that on the interstate. Unless you have blue rollers on the roof of your car you may spark some road rage from a mental patient driver. :P

I don't care if someone is making wide turns, slow turns or no turns. I look out for myself in those situations. It's not even 30 seconds of pandemonium. Act accordingly until management can figure out how to control the traffic flow. :)

Strat
02-17-2007, 01:33 PM
In Lostone's defense, the Trooper analogy is just not valid. The situations are completely different; unless there's some huge looming safety issue just out of sight on the road, a cop holding up traffic and a skier warning of imminent danger are just not analogous. A multi-person pileup at the top of the Valley House lift would be absolutely horrendous, and the more that can be done to prevent that, the better. It's not like by making people slow down, the ski experience is being harmed - no one is being hindered for more than a few seconds, and really if they had carried all that speed there's a good chance they'd end up being hindered a lot more due to a collision. It's not like they're going to be 10 minutes late for a meeting in Burlington; they can wait a few seconds to get to Snowball, or Stein's, or whatever.

Abe Froman
02-17-2007, 02:50 PM
In Lostone's defense, the Trooper analogy is just not valid. The situations are completely different; unless there's some huge looming safety issue just out of sight on the road, a cop holding up traffic and a skier warning of imminent danger are just not analogous. A multi-person pileup at the top of the Valley House lift would be absolutely horrendous, and the more that can be done to prevent that, the better. It's not like by making people slow down, the ski experience is being harmed - no one is being hindered for more than a few seconds, and really if they had carried all that speed there's a good chance they'd end up being hindered a lot more due to a collision. It's not like they're going to be 10 minutes late for a meeting in Burlington; they can wait a few seconds to get to Snowball, or Stein's, or whatever.

The analogy is valid. Of course the situations are different. Everyone is entitled to their opnion. The trooper/traffic cop is controling the flow of traffic. Therefore trying to make everyone drive safely. The skier is doing the same thing whilst :? sliding on snow. I agree with you that a multi-person pile up at the top of VH isn't good. I have no problem if someone wants to take the initiative to slow others down around them. Once I move past the chaos....I carry on my merry way.

Strat, I disagree with the part about not playing traffic cop. That is all. I have no problem with it.


a cop holding up traffic and a skier warning of imminent danger are just not analogous

Ok. One is an athourity figure who leagaly can enforce the law. The other is someone who is being careful with his actions to make others slow down around them. :D

ps did I use my conjunction (whilst) properly.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

sugarboarder
02-17-2007, 03:23 PM
In Lostone's defense, the Trooper analogy is just not valid. The situations are completely different; unless there's some huge looming safety issue just out of sight on the road, a cop holding up traffic and a skier warning of imminent danger are just not analogous. A multi-person pileup at the top of the Valley House lift would be absolutely horrendous, and the more that can be done to prevent that, the better. It's not like by making people slow down, the ski experience is being harmed - no one is being hindered for more than a few seconds, and really if they had carried all that speed there's a good chance they'd end up being hindered a lot more due to a collision. It's not like they're going to be 10 minutes late for a meeting in Burlington; they can wait a few seconds to get to Snowball, or Stein's, or whatever.

It is just not one skier's place to be controlling the speed of another skier by any means, unless of course there is an accident being tended to. If I am crossing VHT on my board with enough speed to make it across easily, then it is up to me to then take precautions at the VH chair intersection WHEN I get there. Seeing as how I've been doing this for 20+ years with ZERO collisions I'd say it is working out quite well. Really, on VHT, you should look over your shoulder now and then to see if anyone is overtaking you. Trying to prevent them from doing so is just plain ASKING for another accident BEFORE you even get to the VH chair intersection. Checking behind you is the smart thing to do because it is a narrow traverse - like checking your rear view mirror while driving. And let's not blow this out of proportion here either - it's a dangerous spot yes, but it's not like they are carting bodies out of there on a daily basis.