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Treeskier
02-07-2007, 08:36 AM
In alpine zone there is a linc to this artical/rumor http://www.firsttracksonline.com/ind...ticle&sid=1553 . It will be interesting to see how this re-adjusts the sand in our corner of the world. Maybe now we can become the late open area of the East? Things to ponder.

Lostone
02-07-2007, 08:46 AM
Oops! Page Not Found.



In summer 2006 we undertook the massive task of completely redesigning First Tracks!! Online Ski Magazine.
Accordingly the page you are trying to access may have moved.
Click here to search our new website for the page you were seeking.


:roll:

Love it when you get a bad link with no info as to what you were even supposed to be looking for. :roll:

However, if you look at the article, linked in SRO's thread, here (http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=746) you will see they're whispering about K_Mart. :wink:

ski_it
02-07-2007, 10:15 AM
try this link: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1553
title of article is "Rumors Fly Regarding Pending Sale of American Skiing Company Resorts"

BushMogulMaster
02-07-2007, 10:22 AM
This one should be interesting to watch. I must admit, it wouldn't bother me to see ASC (American Skiing Company, not to be confused with the Aspen Skiing Company, also called ASC) to finally crumble away. Their fate was sealed by Les Otten's lack of intuitive/intelligent financial decisions (so he retired an average millionaire instead of a many many hundreds-of-millions millionaire). Now it's time for them to fall off the radar, and leave someone else to fix what they've ruined. I'd like to see K-mart (et. al.) under new ownership, as long as they don't steal any of our business!

freeheel_skier
02-07-2007, 10:24 AM
This one should be interesting to watch. I must admit, it wouldn't bother me to see ASC (American Skiing Company, not to be confused with the Aspen Skiing Company, also called ASC) to finally crumble away. Their fate was sealed by Les Otten's lack of intuitive/intelligent financial decisions (so he retired an average millionaire instead of a many many hundreds-of-millions millionaire). Now it's time for them to fall off the radar, and leave someone else to fix what they've ruined. I'd like to see K-mart (et. al.) under new ownership, as long as they don't steal any of our business!

I would like to thank Les for the increased snow making and the SBX. I'd also like to thank him for selling the Bush :D

BushMogulMaster
02-07-2007, 10:26 AM
This one should be interesting to watch. I must admit, it wouldn't bother me to see ASC (American Skiing Company, not to be confused with the Aspen Skiing Company, also called ASC) to finally crumble away. Their fate was sealed by Les Otten's lack of intuitive/intelligent financial decisions (so he retired an average millionaire instead of a many many hundreds-of-millions millionaire). Now it's time for them to fall off the radar, and leave someone else to fix what they've ruined. I'd like to see K-mart (et. al.) under new ownership, as long as they don't steal any of our business!

I would like to thank Les for the increased snow making and the SBX. I'd also like to thank him for selling the Bush :D

Good point! Maybe he's not so bad afterall! :lol:

Tin Woodsman
02-07-2007, 10:29 AM
Make no mistake, this would be bad news for SB owners and good news for SB skiers. To a certain extent, K-Mart has been a sleeping giant over the last 10 years. They haven't invested a dime in their lodges or lifts, all of which are well beyond their "sell by" date. They haven't been able to complete or even start the Pico interconnect. And they haven't been able to move forward on their base village. These improvements would represent a major challenge to SB in its drive to attract skiers from the NY metro area. Of course, if there are more skiers at K, that means possibly fewer skiers at SB, which means more powder for me. :wink:

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 10:34 AM
My post from last night on this subject from the other thread:

Thought #1

I can't help but guess that Intrawest/Fortis is kicking the tires on Stowe. I have no facts to back this up, just pure speculation. I wonder, are the sales at Stowe there to match the product that has been released thus far? Their product, while grand, its very pricey for the east coast second home ski market. I wonder, how long can AIG keep this expensive and risky real estate project & ski area on its books now that Hank Greenberg isn't around to protect it. I think AIG has done a good job with the mountain. I wouldn't be cheering for a change in ownership here. Stowe + Whistler = Something? Anything. Dunno.

Thought #2

I would love to see the ASC empire finally broken up. Anything is better than ASC. Too bad for Win though, a rejuvenated Killington or an interconnected Pico-Killington wouldn't be helpful for Sugarbush. It will still be the same over crowded Killington, but judging by the crowds, most don't care.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 10:37 AM
This one should be interesting to watch. I must admit, it wouldn't bother me to see ASC (American Skiing Company, not to be confused with the Aspen Skiing Company, also called ASC) to finally crumble away. Their fate was sealed by Les Otten's lack of intuitive/intelligent financial decisions (so he retired an average millionaire instead of a many many hundreds-of-millions millionaire). Now it's time for them to fall off the radar, and leave someone else to fix what they've ruined. I'd like to see K-mart (et. al.) under new ownership, as long as they don't steal any of our business!

I would like to thank Les for the increased snow making and the SBX. I'd also like to thank him for selling the Bush :D

Good point! Maybe he's not so bad afterall! :lol:

Yes indeed, Les Otten's over investment in Sugarbush has been a boon for SB skiers. Thank you Les!

Tin Woodsman
02-07-2007, 10:40 AM
My post from last night on this subject from the other thread:

Thought #1

I can't help but guess that Intrawest/Fortis is kicking the tires on Stowe. I have no facts to back this up, just pure speculation. I wonder, are the sales at Stowe there to match the product that has been released thus far? Their product, while grand, its very pricey for the east coast second home ski market. I wonder, how long can AIG keep this expensive and risky real estate project & ski area on its books now that Hank Greenberg isn't around to protect it. I think AIG has done a good job with the mountain. I wouldn't be cheering for a change in ownership here. Stowe + Whistler = Something? Anything. Dunno.
I doubt if Intrawest is kickign the tires on AIG - if it's even for sale. They are already have a heavy exposure to EC skiing in the form of Stratton, Tremblant, Mountain Creek and Snowshoe. Besides, there isn't much in the way of real estate opportunities left at Stowe. As the marketing swag screams, this will be the last mountainside real estate opportunity ever at Stowe.



Thought #2

I would love to see the ASC empire finally broken up. Anything is better than ASC. Too bad for Win though, a rejuvenated Killington or an interconnected Pico-Killington wouldn't be helpful for Sugarbush. It will still be the same over crowded Killington, but judging by the crowds, most don't care.

K-Mart with a well-capitalized owner will be a formidable challenge. I can see it now - "The Beast is Back!" as K-mart tries to recapture its crown for early and late season skiing. Throw in the extra terrain from the interconnect and the likely increased usage of Pico as an entry point and you've got one huge offering to the South. Then with the new village that would certainly move forward, you'll have a shrinking pool of buyers for LP base real estate. SV bettermove quick with phase 2 of its real estate aspirations. It won't have the monopoly on Central VT slopeside accommodations for long.

freeheel_skier
02-07-2007, 10:44 AM
Make no mistake, this would be bad news for SB owners and good news for SB skiers. To a certain extent, K-Mart has been a sleeping giant over the last 10 years. They haven't invested a dime in their lodges or lifts, all of which are well beyond their "sell by" date. They haven't been able to complete or even start the Pico interconnect. And they haven't been able to move forward on their base village. These improvements would represent a major challenge to SB in its drive to attract skiers from the NY metro area. Of course, if there are more skiers at K, that means possibly fewer skiers at SB, which means more powder for me. :wink:

I think you make a good point. However, SB is ahead of the base area development and marketing game right now. IF Kmart was sold tomorrow, I would think that it would take K 3-5yrs. to get their base village developed? :?

MntMan4Bush
02-07-2007, 10:50 AM
Of course SB would also have to change their marketing strategy:

"Fewer New Yorkers than any other Ski area in Vermont"

I think that would be an attractive campaign :wink:

HowieT2
02-07-2007, 11:17 AM
K-mart can plan/build/restore 'till the cows come home and it will never appeal to the same market as SB. The genie is out of the bottle in Rutland and there isn't anything they can do to make it like the MRV. There are many people who like what they have going there, probably more than enjoy the MRV. The more K-Mart builds, the less attractive it will be to the those of us who love the MRV.


BTW-any reason there aren't any billboards for SB in Rutland? Given that most people think SB is so far away, a sign pointing to route 100 north might attract some paying customers.

noski
02-07-2007, 11:34 AM
BTW-any reason there aren't any billboards for SB in Rutland? Given that most people think SB is so far away, a sign pointing to route 100 north might attract some paying customers.

So, uh, Howie, how many billboards have you actually seen in Vermont?

MntMan4Bush
02-07-2007, 11:45 AM
I think what Noski is trying to say is that the state of Vermont does not alow billboards. After the Billboard Beautification Act was found to be a sham Vermont threw out all billboards and only allows small markers to show areas of interest. They were the first and other states have also picked it up like Maine. Thank God they did. Can you imagine huge billboards up all over the place obscuring the country side? Just thinking of it makes me ill.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 11:50 AM
[quote=random_ski_guy]My post from last night on this subject from the other thread:

Thought #1

I can't help but guess that Intrawest/Fortis is kicking the tires on Stowe. I have no facts to back this up, just pure speculation. I wonder, are the sales at Stowe there to match the product that has been released thus far? Their product, while grand, its very pricey for the east coast second home ski market. I wonder, how long can AIG keep this expensive and risky real estate project & ski area on its books now that Hank Greenberg isn't around to protect it. I think AIG has done a good job with the mountain. I wouldn't be cheering for a change in ownership here. Stowe + Whistler = Something? Anything. Dunno.
I doubt if Intrawest is kickign the tires on AIG - if it's even for sale. They are already have a heavy exposure to EC skiing in the form of Stratton, Tremblant, Mountain Creek and Snowshoe. Besides, there isn't much in the way of real estate opportunities left at Stowe. As the marketing swag screams, this will be the last mountainside real estate opportunity ever at Stowe.

[quote]
Thought #2

I hear you about the lack development opportunities at Stowe devaluing the acquisition. But my premise is this; with Hank Greenberg out at AIG, how long can AIG dabble in operating a ski area with a $250M+ development in northern VT? Its pretty far outside the box for an insurance company. If sales are slow and you've just plopped down $100M to get it started, the red ink will start to run. When the ski area calls pappa bear AIG for $ to fund the deficits, will the new mgmt at AIG consider a sale? Hey, if sales are on track, then AIG keeps the mtn.

Anyways, the article says the other sale would be a surprise....Stowe would indeed be a surprise. What's your guess on the surprise sale?

HowieT2
02-07-2007, 11:52 AM
That would be a very reasonable explanation for why there are no billboards for SB in Rutland. Thank you, I never knew that. I guess the signs I see on my drive are all in NY.

smootharc
02-07-2007, 12:35 PM
K-mart can plan/build/restore 'till the cows come home and it will never appeal to the same market as SB. The genie is out of the bottle in Rutland and there isn't anything they can do to make it like the MRV. There are many people who like what they have going there, probably more than enjoy the MRV. The more K-Mart builds, the less attractive it will be to the those of us who love the MRV.

Kind of my thoughts with regards to Summit Ventures needing to quake in their boots at this prospect.

Does a nice restaurant quake in it's boots when another Mickey-D's gets crowded onto their local strip ? Probably not. Sugarbush seems to be about building on the core valley lovers, attracting new clients who didn't really know there was such a sweet "simply sweeter" option (to the McMountain world), and re-attracting those who skied here growing up, faded away as SB's luster faded, but would be excited to see all the positive changes (and who now have families of their own). That mission seems to be well in place and moving forward nicely.....and recent press and word of mouth seem to be reflecting a positive buzz about the place.

tymoguls
02-07-2007, 01:20 PM
I have a vague memory from my youth about a guy who would roam the highway-side cutting down billboards with a chain saw. Ring any bells with any one?

Tin Woodsman
02-07-2007, 01:25 PM
K-mart can plan/build/restore 'till the cows come home and it will never appeal to the same market as SB. The genie is out of the bottle in Rutland and there isn't anything they can do to make it like the MRV. There are many people who like what they have going there, probably more than enjoy the MRV. The more K-Mart builds, the less attractive it will be to the those of us who love the MRV.


I would caution against this type of complacency. We all know that SB offers a superior product to K-Mart, but we already drank the Kool-Aid. It's the fence-sitters and non-believers you need to convince in order to make the emerging LP base village a success. Let's face it - if there were hundreds of people lining up for real estate at SB, Clay Brook would be full already. It isn't The fact of the matter is that there are a LOT of perfectly fine ski areas (in the yes of the typical skier) between SB and the major population centers (K-Mart and all of NH for the Boston metro and the Berkshires, Catskills, and all of Southern VT for the NY metro). When you have kids, and you aren't super dedicated, it takes a LOT of convincing to drive that extra 60-90 minutes north. Why do you think Okemo is so successful? By any reasonable metric, it has lousy terrain, marginal natural snow, and a fairly uninspiring town at its base (Ludlow). But it provides a consistent product and a lower price point than Stratton. Because it is within reachof the NY metro and CT skiers, it does very, very well.

Think about how this dynamic changes when you have a mountain with real terrain (don't be fooled - K-Mart has some goods) that will grow by 25% (via the interconnect) and then adds a legit base village. All of this will be 30-60 minutes closer to where everyone lives. The attitude of "We're so good we don't need to worry about those wahoos down south" is extremely dangerous, IMHO. I think Win and his partners are smart enough to see through that smoke screen and strike while the iron is hot, if possible. SB may appeal to a more discerning, dedicated skier, but when the kids are screaming and bitching in the back seat after a 2 or 3 hour drive, that will break the will of many parents to continue heading North.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 02:10 PM
K-mart can plan/build/restore 'till the cows come home and it will never appeal to the same market as SB. The genie is out of the bottle in Rutland and there isn't anything they can do to make it like the MRV. There are many people who like what they have going there, probably more than enjoy the MRV. The more K-Mart builds, the less attractive it will be to the those of us who love the MRV.


I would caution against this type of complacency. We all know that SB offers a superior product to K-Mart, but we already drank the Kool-Aid. It's the fence-sitters and non-believers you need to convince in order to make the emerging LP base village a success. Let's face it - if there were hundreds of people lining up for real estate at SB, Clay Brook would be full already. It isn't The fact of the matter is that there are a LOT of perfectly fine ski areas (in the yes of the typical skier) between SB and the major population centers (K-Mart and all of NH for the Boston metro and the Berkshires, Catskills, and all of Southern VT for the NY metro). When you have kids, and you aren't super dedicated, it takes a LOT of convincing to drive that extra 60-90 minutes north. Why do you think Okemo is so successful? By any reasonable metric, it has lousy terrain, marginal natural snow, and a fairly uninspiring town at its base (Ludlow). But it provides a consistent product and a lower price point than Stratton. Because it is within reachof the NY metro and CT skiers, it does very, very well.

Think about how this dynamic changes when you have a mountain with real terrain (don't be fooled - K-Mart has some goods) that will grow by 25% (via the interconnect) and then adds a legit base village. All of this will be 30-60 minutes closer to where everyone lives. The attitude of "We're so good we don't need to worry about those wahoos down south" is extremely dangerous, IMHO. I think Win and his partners are smart enough to see through that smoke screen and strike while the iron is hot, if possible. SB may appeal to a more discerning, dedicated skier, but when the kids are screaming and bitching in the back seat after a 2 or 3 hour drive, that will break the will of many parents to continue heading North.

Tin, I think you have nailed this. When it comes to selling the new base village real estate, you have to take every competitor south of you seriously. For a decade you have been able to ignore kton for the most part because they couldn't get their act together. A new owner could change all that. SB is very much competing against kton, okemo, stratton and others for the all important real estate & entertainment dollar. When you're about to spend 200k, 500k or $1M, you tend to look around. Whether its a group of college buddies organizing a ski weekend or a family thinking about a ski week, for most skiers, all these mountains are in play. Unlike the sophisticates who frequent this forum, the masses don't geek out like we do about skiing. Many times, they just go where the wind takes them.

So all I am saying is that you have to take the threat of a reorganized kmart seriously should it happen. For SB, I think that means that they just need to stay on course with their current plan/message. We all know that SB has great deal to offer that others could never duplicate.

kcyanks1
02-07-2007, 02:20 PM
Of course SB would also have to change their marketing strategy:

"Fewer New Yorkers than any other Ski area in Vermont"

I think that would be an attractive campaign :wink:

Hey, be nice! :-)

MntMan4Bush
02-07-2007, 02:26 PM
I was wondering when someone would notice that. Just kidding by the way. As an avid Sox fan I need to take whatever oppurtunity I can, but everyone who makes Sugarbush their home (be it home away from home) is more than OK in my book. One of the guys in our house is from Manhatten. A New Yorker and a boarder, but we still love him. :P

02-07-2007, 02:44 PM
I would caution against this type of complacency. We all know that SB offers a superior product to K-Mart, but we already drank the Kool-Aid. It's the fence-sitters and non-believers you need to convince in order to make the emerging LP base village a success. Let's face it - if there were hundreds of people lining up for real estate at SB, Clay Brook would be full already. It isn't The fact of the matter is that there are a LOT of perfectly fine ski areas (in the yes of the typical skier) between SB and the major population centers (K-Mart and all of NH for the Boston metro and the Berkshires, Catskills, and all of Southern VT for the NY metro). When you have kids, and you aren't super dedicated, it takes a LOT of convincing to drive that extra 60-90 minutes north. Why do you think Okemo is so successful? By any reasonable metric, it has lousy terrain, marginal natural snow, and a fairly uninspiring town at its base (Ludlow). But it provides a consistent product and a lower price point than Stratton. Because it is within reachof the NY metro and CT skiers, it does very, very well.

Think about how this dynamic changes when you have a mountain with real terrain (don't be fooled - K-Mart has some goods) that will grow by 25% (via the interconnect) and then adds a legit base village. All of this will be 30-60 minutes closer to where everyone lives. The attitude of "We're so good we don't need to worry about those wahoos down south" is extremely dangerous, IMHO. I think Win and his partners are smart enough to see through that smoke screen and strike while the iron is hot, if possible. SB may appeal to a more discerning, dedicated skier, but when the kids are screaming and bitching in the back seat after a 2 or 3 hour drive, that will break the will of many parents to continue heading North.

I don't agree with much of this Tin. A revitalization of Killington may very well translate into a revitalization of the Vermont ski industry and even the NE ski industry as a whole. Geographically, SB is never going to be as competitive as Killington for the NYC/Boston metro market. I'm sure Win and Co's business plan doesn't include some sort of reliance that competitive resorts will remain lame. There's not a lot they could do about it anyway. My feeling is if Killington sees a rebirth, it's good for Killington and good for the industry which is inherently good for Sugarbush. Sugarbush just needs to continue to offer a quality product at a fair price and it will all work out in the end.

noski
02-07-2007, 03:00 PM
A revitalization of Killington may very well translate into a revitalization of the Vermont ski industry and even the NE ski industry as a whole. My feeling is if Killington sees a rebirth, it's good for Killington and good for the industry which is inherently good for Sugarbush. Sugarbush just needs to continue to offer a quality product at a fair price and it will all work out in the end.

I agree with these statements. It is similar to the "When the tide rises, all the ship go up" theory. Any generation of interest in winter recreation that results in increased overnight visits will be a shot in the arm of Vermont's economy. We just have to keep our focus and deliver a superior product and differentiate the MRV from other areas through service, value, and overall guest experience.

02-07-2007, 03:08 PM
A revitalization of Killington may very well translate into a revitalization of the Vermont ski industry and even the NE ski industry as a whole. My feeling is if Killington sees a rebirth, it's good for Killington and good for the industry which is inherently good for Sugarbush. Sugarbush just needs to continue to offer a quality product at a fair price and it will all work out in the end.

I agree with these statements. It is similar to the "When the tide rises, all the ship go up" theory. Any generation of interest in winter recreation that results in increased overnight visits will be a shot in the arm of Vermont's economy. We just have to keep our focus and deliver a superior product and differentiate the MRV from other areas through service, value, and overall guest experience.
Right. And as a CoC Director, you understand this better than anyone. The "rising tide lifts all ships" quote is the perfect way to sum up my thoughts. Thank you.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 03:09 PM
I don't agree with much of this Tin. A revitalization of Killington may very well translate into a revitalization of the Vermont ski industry and even the NE ski industry as a whole. Geographically, SB is never going to be as competitive as Killington for the NYC/Boston metro market. I'm sure Win and Co's business plan doesn't include some sort of reliance that competitive resorts will remain lame. There's not a lot they could do about it anyway. My feeling is if Killington sees a rebirth, it's good for Killington and good for the industry which is inherently good for Sugarbush. Sugarbush just needs to continue to offer a quality product at a fair price and it will all work out in the end.

First of all, this dialogue is fun.

If SB loses just 10% of its skier days & overnight visitors, that hurts. 10% is probably 30k skier visits for SB (which is just 3% of Kton's visits). True, SB is gunning for a different market segment than Kton. But there is a great deal of commonality in the clientele too; too much commonality to turn the other cheek and look away. I myself might be considered a Kton convert to SB. I use to ski Kton 5 days a year or so. Now, one day at most.

If Kton is not stealing skier visits from SB and SB not stealing a little bit from Kton, then where do the visits come from? It’s well known that skier visits have been virtually flat for a decade. Sure most of the growth in visits for the large ski areas over the past 30 years has come from the lost feeder hills and mid sized mtns (Maple Valley, Mt Tom). Now that most of those mtns are gone, where to you go to grow your visits?

I see you are envisioning a great awakening of the dormant eastern skier from a revitalized Kton. I hope you are right, it’s a nice vision. In the meantime, man your marketing battle stations.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 03:11 PM
A revitalization of Killington may very well translate into a revitalization of the Vermont ski industry and even the NE ski industry as a whole. My feeling is if Killington sees a rebirth, it's good for Killington and good for the industry which is inherently good for Sugarbush. Sugarbush just needs to continue to offer a quality product at a fair price and it will all work out in the end.

I agree with these statements. It is similar to the "When the tide rises, all the ship go up" theory. Any generation of interest in winter recreation that results in increased overnight visits will be a shot in the arm of Vermont's economy. We just have to keep our focus and deliver a superior product and differentiate the MRV from other areas through service, value, and overall guest experience.
Right. And as a CoC Director, you understand this better than anyone. The "rising tide lifts all ships" quote is the perfect way to sum up my thoughts. Thank you.

Could Susan really respond to this issue in any other way in a public forum? :wink:

Tin Woodsman
02-07-2007, 03:13 PM
I don't agree with much of this Tin. A revitalization of Killington may very well translate into a revitalization of the Vermont ski industry and even the NE ski industry as a whole. Geographically, SB is never going to be as competitive as Killington for the NYC/Boston metro market. I'm sure Win and Co's business plan doesn't include some sort of reliance that competitive resorts will remain lame. There's not a lot they could do about it anyway. My feeling is if Killington sees a rebirth, it's good for Killington and good for the industry which is inherently good for Sugarbush. Sugarbush just needs to continue to offer a quality product at a fair price and it will all work out in the end.

I'm sorry, but the data simply doesn't support your thesis. The skiing industry in the northeast peaked, in terms of skier visits, in 86/87 at 14.745MM visits. It has been flat to down ever since (avg. of 13MM over the last 5 years), with those lost skier visits migrating to the Rockies and Pacific Coast. K-Mart didn't really start its downhill slide until the mid-90s, so it's hard to support the notion that there's any significant correlation between the fortunes of K-Mart and the NE skiing biz as a whole. The inescapable conclusion of the numbers is that the remaining NE resorts are competing for a larger slice of a shrinking pie. The extent to which a revitalized K-Mart prevents fence sitters from exploring further north is a MAJOR potential issue for SB. Let me put it this way - if K-Mart didn't exist at all and the closest competitor to the south was Okemo, don't you think SB would be in a much better position? If we were talking about Smuggs vs. Stowe or MRG vs. SB or even Bromley/Magic vs. Stratton, then I'd buy into your thesis. Visitors drawn to one would inevitably want to explore the others nearby. That really isn't the case here. Mind you, it's not a binary relationship or anything, rather a resurgant K will simply act to siphon off some potential SB skiers and condo buyers. The customers of any business form a continuum. Some are devotees such as ourselves who wouldn't really consider going elsewhere. Some have an affinity for the place, but would try elsewhere. Some are there just by convenience. As long as K-Mart has been plagued by deferred maintenance, poor employee morale, and retarded season pass pricing, they have likely driven away the more marginal customers to the benefit of places like SB and Okemo. When they get their act together, that dynamic reverses. SB will still have its niche, but K-Mart is three times bigger in terms of skeir visits and owns a tremendous, if ailing, brand.

SB must indeed stick to its knitting. With a well-capitalized ownership group and an eye to local sensibilities, SV can certainly be a success. But a resurgant K-Mart will be a headwind. There is no rising tide to lift all boats in the northeast skiing industry.

noski
02-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Could Susan really respond to this issue in any other way in a public forum? :wink: 8)

Fourwide
02-07-2007, 04:32 PM
I'm with the "rising tide" argument. An improved Killington draws more skiers to Killington. Sugarbush is a mere hour away, and a much better experience for skiers that have experienced Killington and are looking for an upgrade.

HowieT2
02-07-2007, 04:42 PM
My previous post was specificaly in response to a prior post about Killington and not anything to do with Okemo/Stratton. My point was that Killington is and always will be a different animal than SB and any improvements in its operations won't have a material effect on SB, in particular. I realize that SB is in more direct competition with the Okemo/Strattons of the world, and anything that happens at those areas is more relevant. Okemo/Stratton are currently attracting the skiers and investors that SB wants and needs. I don't think that is the case with k-mart.

Okemo/Stratton have a an inherent advantage because they are closer to the metro areas. But they have also benefitted from the lack of investment in SB in terms of marketing, housing and facilities. It seems that SV is prepared to change that.

02-07-2007, 04:46 PM
There is no rising tide to lift all boats in the northeast skiing industry.

Well...just call me the eternal optimist then. With the rebirth of Sugarbush, major improvements at Stowe and other resorts, the potential for a "new" Killington and Mount Snow for that matter, I do believe we are poised to breathe new life into the Vermont and NE ski industry. Bottom line is I don't think Sugarbush needs to or should alter their plans solely due to this development which in the longer term will most likely shake out as a positive one. Only time will tell.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 04:58 PM
Bottom line is I don't think Sugarbush needs to or should alter their plans solely due to this development which in the longer term will most likely shake out as a positive one. Only time will tell.

I agree with you here. Don't change the plans at SB because of any changes at Killington. Stay the course, SB is on the right tack. I'm just a little concerned for SB because I think a renewed Kton makes things harder. Its already difficult enough competing with Stowe, Okemo and Stratton. I guess thats where we disagree. And thats okay. After all, I think we all agree that SB is best.

BushMogulMaster
02-07-2007, 05:10 PM
This is all very interesting. But... one question: why is everyone assuming that new ownership would solve all of K-mart's problems and raise it to the top? Sure, that's one possibility. But maybe it won't change; maybe it will get worse. Remember to consider all of the possibilities. Maybe new ownership would, in some way or another, tick off enough skiers and cause enough frustration with the area that they will lose some portion of skier visits. Will they come to SB? Maybe.

I don't think this would be the case, but it's another possibility to explore. New ownership for K-mart doesn't mean a 100% revitalized and growing area that will pull in every NY metro and CT customer.

kcyanks1
02-07-2007, 05:12 PM
I was wondering when someone would notice that. Just kidding by the way. As an avid Sox fan I need to take whatever oppurtunity I can, but everyone who makes Sugarbush their home (be it home away from home) is more than OK in my book. One of the guys in our house is from Manhatten. A New Yorker and a boarder, but we still love him. :P

I fully understand. I am a diehard Yankees fan, and it makes me hate (not truly "hate," of course, but in the Yankees-Sox rivalry sense) everything related to Boston. I even feel bad when I buy Sam Adams beer :-)

MntMan4Bush
02-07-2007, 05:17 PM
Well you have to hand it to teh Bush. Bringing Red Sox and Yankee Fans together. Skiers and Snowboarders. Pure chaos I tell you. Cats and Dogs living together, but I love it.

In the spirit of teh forum though I think BMM has a great point. We assume that new ownership would mean a better K-town, K-Fed, K-Mart, but it could also be a K-tastrophe as well. We need to stay the course and do what is right for SB. I'm sure Win thinks about that somewhat, but if we're always worried about what teh otehr guy is doing and changing just to meet what they are doing then we loose focus on what makes SB great. Let's focus on SB while keeping K-notgonnaskithereanymore in our rearview mirror.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 05:28 PM
This is all very interesting. But... one question: why is everyone assuming that new ownership would solve all of K-mart's problems and raise it to the top? Sure, that's one possibility. But maybe it won't change; maybe it will get worse. Remember to consider all of the possibilities. Maybe new ownership would, in some way or another, tick off enough skiers and cause enough frustration with the area that they will lose some portion of skier visits. Will they come to SB? Maybe.

I don't think this would be the case, but it's another possibility to explore. New ownership for K-mart doesn't mean a 100% revitalized and growing area that will pull in every NY metro and CT customer.

Good point. But its hard to imagine the next operator doing worse than ASC. A recapitilized operation free of excessive junk debt (high interest) should be able to do a better job.

Tin Woodsman
02-07-2007, 05:56 PM
This is all very interesting. But... one question: why is everyone assuming that new ownership would solve all of K-mart's problems and raise it to the top? Sure, that's one possibility. But maybe it won't change; maybe it will get worse. Remember to consider all of the possibilities. Maybe new ownership would, in some way or another, tick off enough skiers and cause enough frustration with the area that they will lose some portion of skier visits. Will they come to SB? Maybe.

I don't think this would be the case, but it's another possibility to explore. New ownership for K-mart doesn't mean a 100% revitalized and growing area that will pull in every NY metro and CT customer.

Good point. But its hard to imagine the next operator doing worse than ASC. A recapitilized operation free of excessive junk debt (high interest) should be able to do a better job.

Amen to that. You simply could not operate a place worse than ASC has. Retarded monkeys on meth couldn't do worse. I'm serious. Again, make no mistake, K-Mart has a HUGE amount of latent brand loyalty and awareness. It will quickly regain it's totale as having the longest season in the East - take that to the bank. It is the closest ski area to CT and NY to offer big mountain terrain and consistent snowfall. The rising tide theory really doesn't apply here. What happened when ASC bought SB, K-Mart, Snow, Attitash, and Sugarloaf in short order during the 90s and then proceeded to dump huge amounts of capital into all of them? Skier visits ctually went down in the 90s. It is silly to assume that b/c a well capitalized and sentient owner will take over K-Mart that this will have a broader impact on the NE skiing industry as a whole The fact of the matter is that all of the growth in skier visits over the last 20 years has come from western resorts - not NE and NY.

To repeat - all the resorts in the NE are competing for a stagnant or shrinking market, and no amount of capital expenditure in the past has fundamentally changed this trend. And believe me, between Spruce Hamlet, Jackson Gore, Clay Brook, Jay Peak's West Bowl, Bretton Woods, South Peak at Loon, and everything going on at Stratton, there's been no shortage of dollars invested in the regional industry. Are we seriously to believe that a revitalized K-Mart will tip the balance definitely in the other direction? That would be like proposing that something like 20,000 more troops will turn the tide in Iraq - crazy , right? Oh, nevermind.

Let's be clear. SB isn't competing directly with Stratton. Stratton is at the very high end of the market and appeals almost exclusively to CT and NYC area folks. SB is competing mostly with K-Mart, Stowe, Jay Peak, and to a lesser extent Okemo. You may now even through Burke in the mix with its pending revitalization from Ginn. There is a finite pool of skiers out there who will spend their siing budget in the Northeast and it's not growing. Someone buying a condo at K-Mart isn't going to buy one at SB - it's really that simple. As much as we'd like to believe we're "different" here, there is a tremendous amount of overlap within the destination skier population between places like SB, Stowe and K. There just is. Note Win's full-page ad in the WSJ a few months back imploring Wall Streeters to "invest" an extra hour each way and check out SB. You don't think that a more formidable competitor to the South with MUCH greater brand recognition in NYC threatens that aspiration? That's crazy talk.

ski_resort_observer
02-07-2007, 06:05 PM
Kmart sold off their base developement right awhile back to raise some cash, I believe it was to Centrex(?). Just heard that they have recently backed out of the deal. A major base developement at kmart is at least 6+ years away no matter who owns it. The business folks in the area are dead set against it and will throw every obstacle they can during the Act 250 process. 10 years LBO proposed a 750m base project at kmart, that's right 3/4 of a billion, the man can definately dream, that's for sure.

I do remember the story about the guy who went around in the still of the night and cut down billboards. In the beginning of the new law if you drove 91 north from Bratt the owners of the billboards there simply moved them across the river to NH. Then the trees grew up enough no one could see them anymore and I think they have been removed.

random_ski_guy
02-07-2007, 06:14 PM
Tin, SB isn't competing directly with Stratton, but thanks to Claybrook, there is now a small amount of overlap here. Its small, but there. Many people I work with typify the Stratton skier. When I showed those people my pictures of Claybrook this week, their eyes raised with interest. They were impressed. On two occassions they asked, "how far to get there?"

I agree that Killington, Stowe and Okemo are more significant competitors. So aren't Smuggs and Jay. Stratton's in the mix though.

Tin Woodsman
02-07-2007, 06:40 PM
Kmart sold off their base developement right awhile back to raise some cash, I believe it was to Centrex(?). Just heard that they have recently backed out of the deal. A major base developement at kmart is at least 6+ years away no matter who owns it. The business folks in the area are dead set against it and will throw every obstacle they can during the Act 250 process. 10 years LBO proposed a 750m base project at kmart, that's right 3/4 of a billion, the man can definately dream, that's for sure.


It won't take the completion or construction of a base village at K to have an impact. The Pico interconnect will generate a tremendous amount of buzz all by itself. K reclaiming its crown as the king of the long ski season in the northeast (getting beat by Bretton Woods these days? Come on!) - that will create some buzz. K will replace and/or upgrade all of its old lifts - Bear Mtn quad, Skye Peak quad, Snowdon Triple, Snowdon Quad, Canyon quad. That will create buzz. K will overhaul its enormous and ancient snowmaking plant. That will create buzz. Lots of things that new owners can do to occupy the minds and dreams of northeastern skiers before it so much as moves a spade full of dirt in the base village. And rest assured, the base village will come - that's what the entire acquisition would be about.

Tin Woodsman
02-07-2007, 06:42 PM
Tin, SB isn't competing directly with Stratton, but thanks to Claybrook, there is now a small amount of overlap here. Its small, but there. Many people I work with typify the Stratton skier. When I showed those people my pictures of Claybrook this week, their eyes raised with interest. They were impressed. On two occassions they asked, "how far to get there?"

I agree that Killington, Stowe and Okemo are more significant competitors. So aren't Smuggs and Jay. Stratton's in the mix though.

Clay Brook does overlap with Stratton, but tht's just a tiny piece, as you point out. Also, its such a radically different on-hill product, with SB being much more natural and "wild" compared to the highly biffed and tame Stratton. I guess Smuggs is also a competitor, but they and Bolton are niche players lacking in significant capital to move forward with noticeable real estate development. And Smuggs is in such a poor location for access from the big cities that it will always be a niche place anyway.

ski_resort_observer
02-07-2007, 07:16 PM
Kmart sold off their base developement right awhile back to raise some cash, I believe it was to Centrex(?). Just heard that they have recently backed out of the deal. A major base developement at kmart is at least 6+ years away no matter who owns it. The business folks in the area are dead set against it and will throw every obstacle they can during the Act 250 process. 10 years LBO proposed a 750m base project at kmart, that's right 3/4 of a billion, the man can definately dream, that's for sure.


It won't take the completion or construction of a base village at K to have an impact. The Pico interconnect will generate a tremendous amount of buzz all by itself. K reclaiming its crown as the king of the long ski season in the northeast (getting beat by Bretton Woods these days? Come on!) - that will create some buzz. K will replace and/or upgrade all of its old lifts - Bear Mtn quad, Skye Peak quad, Snowdon Triple, Snowdon Quad, Canyon quad. That will create buzz. K will overhaul its enormous and ancient snowmaking plant. That will create buzz. Lots of things that new owners can do to occupy the minds and dreams of northeastern skiers before it so much as moves a spade full of dirt in the base village. And rest assured, the base village will come - that's what the entire acquisition would be about.

Yup...IF they do all those things it will definately create a buzz. IMHO, a major base/lodging developement is the foundation that holds it all up. It will take years just to get thru the Act 250 process and while kmart is improving I think the other ski resorts can be improving as well. Stowe is the Bush's most direct competitor that's why each resort back in the ASC days paid people to count cars in each others lots. Kmart, Okemo, Stratton definately play a role as you guys point out.

A big improvement at kmart also helps the entire state's ski business. There has been a huge change in ownership in NE resorts already this season, more than I can remember. I think these are good signs for a bright future. VSAA has recently started a program "5.5", focusing on getting the state back to 5.5m skier visits it had during the heyday. Vermont is still #3 but Utah is hard on our heels.

Sure there are some negs, as you point out, with a rejuvenated kmart, but overall I see it also as a big positive for the Bush and all the other resorts in Vermont.

tymoguls
02-07-2007, 08:19 PM
I've been reading this thread with great interest. I don't have much experience in the resort business, but that's not going to stop me now.

Western ski areas have certainly taken a big bite out the VT/NE market. With low airfares, costs and travel distances are not that far apart for people in major metropolitan areas and the product is more reliable. We had friends from Boston book an early weekend @ Smuggs via their local ski club. Of course, there was absolutely no snow when they got here (and Smuggs didn't even open the pool until the last day of the trip). Oh well, we had a good time hanging with them at B&Js (try doing that at Alta!).

But there are definately ways that VT/NE can compete and regain share.

1. Better transportation from major metro areas that do not involve driving. Nobody lactually enojys the late Sunday night drive. And after two full days of skiing and a couple of apres drinks its rather dangerous. They would much rather have someone else in control. Reliable, comfortable, fast trains from Boston, NYC, Albany, Philadelphia, Montreal would be great, but I hold no hope. Bus/Coach might work. I met some folks from a big bus group from Montreal last weekend, they actually got up a something like 5:00 am to make it to SB by lift opening, and were heading back that night! Suburban pick up locations, regular schedules, and a truly pedestrian environment at the reposrt itself (no car required) would help. Higher airfares would help drive some of the east coast crowd back home as well.

Second, family friendly policies. Airfare really stacks up for a family of 4, making driving almost the only affordable option for most. Get the kids started here, and they will likely pass it along to their kids as well. A comfy bus, free snacks, and kids ski free if parents pay for tickets + lodging? Non-ski activities for reluctant kids/spouses ... more than just shopping, pools, and massages. Skating, climbing walls, puppet shows, theatre, live music, poetry readings, culinary events, equestrian, home tours, ...

Third, all season amenities. The NYC/Boston/Phila crowd won't book weddings in Alta! But they will in VT/NE in droves. Same with corporate planning retreats, small scale professional conferences, ,music camps, etc. Get 'em here once, and they'll start coming back.

Should be we concerned. YES. Should we give up. NEVER!

bill-now
02-07-2007, 08:42 PM
One thing that you guys are forgetting...

We have Win, they don't. :D

BushMogulMaster
02-07-2007, 08:51 PM
One thing that you guys are forgetting...

We have Win, they don't. :D

And that is why K-mart (or anyone else, for that matter) will never be able to undo SB! :D

Lostone
02-07-2007, 08:57 PM
I'd be interested to see what happens to their pass price. :?

A large part of their market has to do with their cheap season passes. That got them an added percentage of the market. It will be interesting to see how much of that increase and of their base moves away, when they bring up their prices to the norm.

And it will be interesting to see if they do go for the early/late season, again. There are many who consider it a loss, other than publicity.

HowieT2
02-07-2007, 09:24 PM
Random-ski-guy

I have to disagree with you. I believe SB is competing directly against Stratton and Okemo and that was what the WSJ ad (and Claybrook/gatehouse) is all about. The upper income families with disposable income go almost exclusively to those two mountains. Whether k-mart connects to Pico or adds newer lifts is not going to change the equation for that crowd. SB has some significant ground to make up in terms of facilities, housing and perception, (not to mention the longer drive) but the potential is there.
I think of the situation as somewhat analogous to suburbs growing out from a city. First the closer areas get built up and then when prices rise, outlying areas follow. SB has an edge over the Stowe and Jay because of its relative proximity.

Mike_451
02-07-2007, 09:29 PM
K-Mart will allwayse be K-Mart, the people who ski there, go there because they have "more lifts and trails, 3000' vertical, Signature Snowmaking, Signature Grooming and a Gondola, and to them That is the Ski Experience. What is to really be said about theese people is they sit arround in the base lodge all day drinking coco, and finaly get out, and take 4 or 5 runs down a blue circle. Do we really wan't all of K-Marts Buisness, as that would ruin Sugarbush completely. Now, again contrary my comments in the first sentence, There are serious skiers who end up at Killingtion, and again oftem because of their cheap passes. Although there is the upper intermediate catigory, of skiiers who prefer groomers, and again prefer Killington.

I think in order to seriously compete with Killingtion, Sugarbush needs to greatly increase snowmaking capacity, to get the mountain open faster, and really close the gap of open terrain early on. Right now Sugarbush has every bit as much if more terrain than killingtion, counting the hundreds of miles found in-between trees. When people go on about K-Mart having alot more snowmaking coverege than Sugarbush, they don't get that, by adding more, you would basically destroy Castlerock, and Several Phenomenal natural trails. The Fact of the mater is that Sugarbush can pretty much make snow where ever they need that. People with that opinion, come from resorts in Southern NY, NJ, and PA, that don't get real snow, and are spoiled by 100% snowmaking at their home resorts, and just don't understand that its snows in VT.

In addition, Sugarbush needs some more affordable lodging options, for the rest of us. 1.6 Million dollar condos, are not going to increse skier days, we need some lodging, possibly hotel based, owned by the resort, that is affordable for middle income family's, college students, and hard working people, who like to play harder.

Sugarbushes pass rates are prety fair, I don't wan't to pay for a cheap pass and get a cheap product.

Unfortunately, people don't fly to VT to ski anymore, becuase you can sit on the plane for another few hours, fly into Denver, and have a 1 hour drive to 5 different resorts, compared to 4 hours from Manchester to SB, or an Hour from Burlington.

BushMogulMaster
02-07-2007, 09:36 PM
K-Mart will always be K-Mart, the people who ski there, go there because they have "more lifts and trails, 3000' vertical,

Humph. My thoughts about K-Mart's (and everyone else's) vertical:

http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/images/fauxad2.jpg

http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/images/fauxad1.jpg

Threw those together for fun last year. Not very good, but you get my point!

Of course, I just realized (after I edited the pix to remove official-looking SB stuff) that instead of saying "not affiliated" I said "no affiliated." Oops! Oh well. Not worth the time to fix it.

Treeskier
02-07-2007, 09:52 PM
I like the adds

ski_resort_observer
02-07-2007, 09:59 PM
Wow BMM...what a great print ad that would make. I would replace one with SR in there, great match regarding competing for market share in Boston.

BushMogulMaster
02-07-2007, 10:03 PM
Wow BMM...what a great print ad that would make. I would replace one with SR in there, great match regarding competing for market share in Boston.

SB marketing is more than welcome to take my concept and make it look pretty! :wink:

Lostone
02-07-2007, 10:31 PM
I'd tell marketing to jump on that offer! :) Great job!

Of course, they can scream we need two lifts to get to any of our peaks. But almost every free skiing day, I try to do a top to bottom, non-stop.

Doubt anyone does that at K-mart or Smuggs. (I love Smuggs, by the way! :wink: )

Mike_451
02-07-2007, 11:46 PM
Great Ad, BMM, anyway I failed to communicate my exact point on K'S 3000. What I meant was that people belive their marketing BS and pick the resort they go to based on the stats they advertise, not the actual skiing.

DaveW
02-08-2007, 07:08 AM
I think of the situation as somewhat analogous to suburbs growing out from a city. First the closer areas get built up and then when prices rise, outlying areas follow. SB has an edge over the Stowe and Jay because of its relative proximity.


I agree about Jay but for someone flying into Burlington on Jet blue (which a fair number are) or for someone coming up 89/87 (using the exit most use) Stowe is within 15 minutes of the travel time to Sugarbush. Not enough to be a factor when in most people decide.

BushMogulMaster
02-08-2007, 07:56 AM
Great Ad, BMM, anyway I failed to communicate my exact point on K'S 3000. What I meant was that people belive their marketing BS and pick the resort they go to based on the stats they advertise, not the actual skiing.

I know... that's why SB needs some sort of advertising campaign proving that K's 3000 is not *real* like our 2600. 2600 *real* top to bottom is much different than their 3000. K peak is only 1650 or so... 1000 less than ME. Big difference!

kcyanks1
02-08-2007, 09:19 AM
My previous post was specificaly in response to a prior post about Killington and not anything to do with Okemo/Stratton. My point was that Killington is and always will be a different animal than SB and any improvements in its operations won't have a material effect on SB, in particular. I realize that SB is in more direct competition with the Okemo/Strattons of the world, and anything that happens at those areas is more relevant. Okemo/Stratton are currently attracting the skiers and investors that SB wants and needs. I don't think that is the case with k-mart.

Okemo/Stratton have a an inherent advantage because they are closer to the metro areas. But they have also benefitted from the lack of investment in SB in terms of marketing, housing and facilities. It seems that SV is prepared to change that.

I think Killington is more of a competitor for SB than Okemo or Stratton -- at least for my business, it is. I'd rather go to Sugarbush than any of the other three, but I have very little interest in Okemo or Stratton. The terrain is just not interesting enough. Killington at least has some good terrain, even though it is not Sugarbush. It's the closest mountain to NYC that has good enough terrain for me to plan a trip to.

random_ski_guy
02-08-2007, 09:44 AM
Random-ski-guy

I have to disagree with you. I believe SB is competing directly against Stratton and Okemo and that was what the WSJ ad (and Claybrook/gatehouse) is all about. The upper income families with disposable income go almost exclusively to those two mountains. Whether k-mart connects to Pico or adds newer lifts is not going to change the equation for that crowd. SB has some significant ground to make up in terms of facilities, housing and perception, (not to mention the longer drive) but the potential is there.
I think of the situation as somewhat analogous to suburbs growing out from a city. First the closer areas get built up and then when prices rise, outlying areas follow. SB has an edge over the Stowe and Jay because of its relative proximity.

Disagreeing with me? I think you have me confused with Tin. I said there IS overlap (ie common clientele) thanks to Claybrook between Stratton, Okemo and SB. You are right, most all upper income families in the NY metro market that ski in the east (most actually don't anymore, they go west), ski Stratton and Okemo.

HowieT2
02-08-2007, 10:53 AM
I stand corrected (I wish I could figure out the quote thing). Anyway, I understand that serious skiers choose to go to Killington and in that respect, K-mart and SB do compete. But, when families choose to buy a ski house and invest in an area, those buyers from the NY metro area are looking at Okemo and/or Stratton, not k-mart. These are the customers that, I believe SB is competing for.

random_ski_guy
02-08-2007, 11:04 AM
I stand corrected (I wish I could figure out the quote thing). Anyway, I understand that serious skiers choose to go to Killington and in that respect, K-mart and SB do compete. But, when families choose to buy a ski house and invest in an area, those buyers from the NY metro area are looking at Okemo and/or Stratton, not k-mart. These are the customers that, I believe SB is competing for.

Howie, to use the quote tool, find the post you want to quote, click the quote button in the upper right hand corner within that quote and presto, a dialogue box appears for you to respond in. It took me a while to figure this out too.

I agree with you about the second home market. The question is, will a revitalized Kmart, under sound management, find a way to siphon off second home interest upon completing the Pico-Kmart interconnect. I don't think Kmart can do it until the interconnect happens. Most probably would disagree with that, but I think they need the interconnect first in order to give them the skier acreage to spread those crowds out. Once the crowds are redistributed, then you could try to get that base village going (second homes) at Snowshed/Ramshead. Yes, many Okemo & Stratton skiers will never go to Kmart, but a portion might reconsider once the interconnect is in. One other point, the interconnect is going to offer fabulous intermediate skiing. The grades on the slopes between Pico and Kmart are ideal for intermediate skiing.

HowieT2
02-08-2007, 11:11 AM
I stand corrected (I wish I could figure out the quote thing). Anyway, I understand that serious skiers choose to go to Killington and in that respect, K-mart and SB do compete. But, when families choose to buy a ski house and invest in an area, those buyers from the NY metro area are looking at Okemo and/or Stratton, not k-mart. These are the customers that, I believe SB is competing for.

Howie, to use the quote tool, find the post you want to quote, click the quote button in the upper right hand corner within that quote and presto, a dialogue box appears for you to respond in. It took me a while to figure this out too.

I agree with you about the second home market. The question is, will a revitalized Kmart, under sound management, find a way to siphon off second home interest upon completing the Pico-Kmart interconnect. I don't think Kmart can do it until the interconnect happens. Most probably would disagree with that, but I think they need the interconnect first in order to give them the skier acreage to spread those crowds out. Once the crowds are redistributed, then you could try to get that base village going (second homes) at Snowshed/Ramshead. Yes, many Okemo & Stratton skiers will never go to Kmart, but a portion might reconsider once the interconnect is in. One other point, the interconnect is going to offer fabulous intermediate skiing. The grades on the slopes between Pico and Kmart are ideal for intermediate skiing.

Bingo- Thanks. I don't think the second home buyers are swayed by k-marts skiing assets. The "scene" is why they go to Stratton/Okemo and not Rutland. You can always go to K-mart for a day trip.

random_ski_guy
02-08-2007, 11:19 AM
Bingo- Thanks. I don't think the second home buyers are swayed by k-marts skiing assets. The "scene" is why they go to Stratton/Okemo and not Rutland. You can always go to K-mart for a day trip.

Good point on the scene. Just like SB had a scene in its early days...you go because that's where it's at.

Tin Woodsman
02-08-2007, 11:35 AM
I agree with you about the second home market. The question is, will a revitalized Kmart, under sound management, find a way to siphon off second home interest upon completing the Pico-Kmart interconnect. I don't think Kmart can do it until the interconnect happens. Most probably would disagree with that, but I think they need the interconnect first in order to give them the skier acreage to spread those crowds out. Once the crowds are redistributed, then you could try to get that base village going (second homes) at Snowshed/Ramshead. Yes, many Okemo & Stratton skiers will never go to Kmart, but a portion might reconsider once the interconnect is in. One other point, the interconnect is going to offer fabulous intermediate skiing. The grades on the slopes between Pico and Kmart are ideal for intermediate skiing.

I just thought I'd re-post this in its entirety b/c it's absolutely spot on. People buy homes at Okemo and Stratton b/c 1) they're available and new and 2) those places offer a reliable on-trail experience for the majority of ability levels.

K-Mart has no new housing stock and has a major gap in its intermiediate terrain offerings - that's why Snowdon is such a shit show all the time. The interconnect would dramatically change that dynamic. If combined with a renewed commitment to employee satisfaction/competence along with inmproved snow surfaces and lifts (both of which need MASSIVE amounts of capital to upgrade), I think you'd see many families taking a second look at K-Mart.

ski_resort_observer
02-08-2007, 12:49 PM
I don't think Kmart can do it until the interconnect happens. Most probably would disagree with that, but I think they need the interconnect first in order to give them the skier acreage to spread those crowds out.

I agree 1000% with your comment. The sad thing is that it would finish Pico's days as a less expensive and crowded alternative with big mountain vert.

HowieT2
02-08-2007, 02:05 PM
I agree with you about the second home market. The question is, will a revitalized Kmart, under sound management, find a way to siphon off second home interest upon completing the Pico-Kmart interconnect. I don't think Kmart can do it until the interconnect happens. Most probably would disagree with that, but I think they need the interconnect first in order to give them the skier acreage to spread those crowds out. Once the crowds are redistributed, then you could try to get that base village going (second homes) at Snowshed/Ramshead. Yes, many Okemo & Stratton skiers will never go to Kmart, but a portion might reconsider once the interconnect is in. One other point, the interconnect is going to offer fabulous intermediate skiing. The grades on the slopes between Pico and Kmart are ideal for intermediate skiing.

I just thought I'd re-post this in its entirety b/c it's absolutely spot on. People buy homes at Okemo and Stratton b/c 1) they're available and new and 2) those places offer a reliable on-trail experience for the majority of ability levels.

K-Mart has no new housing stock and has a major gap in its intermiediate terrain offerings - that's why Snowdon is such a shit show all the time. The interconnect would dramatically change that dynamic. If combined with a renewed commitment to employee satisfaction/competence along with inmproved snow surfaces and lifts (both of which need MASSIVE amounts of capital to upgrade), I think you'd see many families taking a second look at K-Mart.

I like this quote thing.

I just don't see the families I know who have or are considering getting a ski house going to Killington, no matter what they do. It's not the atmosphere they are looking for. Okemo/Stratton are the destinations now and SB has the assets to join the conversation. Rutland is the kind of place where NYC folk are trying to get away from, for the most part.

random_ski_guy
02-08-2007, 02:16 PM
When I used to ski Kmart I never did anything in Rutland. Just got gas, thats it. Everything you need at Kmart is on the famous access road. When they build the village at Ramshead, your need to travel down that access road will become even less and Rutland...never.

I thought your scene comment is more about spending weekends in places where your friends weekend. that way the kids and the adults have people to play with when staying in VT.

Tin Woodsman
02-08-2007, 02:38 PM
Agreed. I don't understand why people keep bringing Rutland into this conversation. It's about as relevant to the K-Mart experience as Waterbury is to SB.

Fourwide
02-08-2007, 03:20 PM
Agreed. I don't understand why people keep bringing Rutland into this conversation. It's about as relevant to the K-Mart experience as Waterbury is to SB.

We rented on the Killington access road for 3 winters. I can confirm that our only excursions to Rutland involved Amtrak pickups/dropoffs, provisioning at the Grand Union (I believe) at the intersection of Rte. 4 and 7 and buying Christmas trees.

HowieT2
02-08-2007, 04:12 PM
Agreed. I don't understand why people keep bringing Rutland into this conversation. It's about as relevant to the K-Mart experience as Waterbury is to SB.

I keep referring to Rutland because I am including the access road with it.

ski_resort_observer
02-08-2007, 05:50 PM
Rutland is not so bad once you get to know the place abit. The wife was born and raised in RutVegas(that's what we used to call it when I was in HS) and a bunch of great skiers and others grew up there. There is a big connection for the people from there to kmart. I realize just driving thru on Rt 7 and Rt 4 is not going give you a very positive impression of the place. Lots of cool history too.

FWIW, Killington is in the towns of Killington(formerly) Sherburne on the west side and Mendon on the east. The Mendon Town offices are right across the road from Pico. Folks from Killington, the town, still yak about wanting to secede from Vermont and become part of NH. The access road is in Killington.

aejkb
02-08-2007, 06:37 PM
I stand corrected (I wish I could figure out the quote thing). Anyway, I understand that serious skiers choose to go to Killington and in that respect, K-mart and SB do compete. But, when families choose to buy a ski house and invest in an area, those buyers from the NY metro area are looking at Okemo and/or Stratton, not k-mart. These are the customers that, I believe SB is competing for.

Howie, to use the quote tool, find the post you want to quote, click the quote button in the upper right hand corner within that quote and presto, a dialogue box appears for you to respond in. It took me a while to figure this out too.

I agree with you about the second home market. The question is, will a revitalized Kmart, under sound management, find a way to siphon off second home interest upon completing the Pico-Kmart interconnect. I don't think Kmart can do it until the interconnect happens. Most probably would disagree with that, but I think they need the interconnect first in order to give them the skier acreage to spread those crowds out. Once the crowds are redistributed, then you could try to get that base village going (second homes) at Snowshed/Ramshead. Yes, many Okemo & Stratton skiers will never go to Kmart, but a portion might reconsider once the interconnect is in. One other point, the interconnect is going to offer fabulous intermediate skiing. The grades on the slopes between Pico and Kmart are ideal for intermediate skiing. This thread highlights what think is a marketing mistake for Sugarbush; trying to compete against the southern Vt. resorts for the typical metro NY customer, who will always find the long drive past the southern Vermont resorts to get to Sugarbush too daunting. I understand that the size of the NY market can't be ignored,and that many past, present and future owners and visitors are from Metro NY. However, it seems that the Greater Boston market is where SV should be spending their marketing $. S.V.'s competitors for the Boston market are in NH, Maine and North of Killington. Sugarbush wins with skiing experience, at 3+ hours from greater Boston and is more beautiful than NH or Maine. Lastly, I wont make any gratuitous comments about the high number of NYers at Killington as another reason why Sugarbush is a better match for the Boston customer, but I think some of SV's marketing strategy is based on the distant past which has little relevance in today's market.

MntMan4Bush
02-08-2007, 07:04 PM
I couldn't agree more that we need to focus on what makes Sugarbush so great and ignore K-town. Obviously it attracted all of us and all the other skiers who currently call Sugarbush their ski mountain of choice and there's likely a damn good reason. Let's focus on that demograph and dominate in that area. That will continue to grow Sugarbush, but along the same concepts and standards that we feel are great. When you go to Kilington they have a huge night life scene where bars charge covers and have lines. Do we want that? Is that what we're about? Or are we about nice cozy barn type settings where the beer is cold and the music some Dead or Phish off-shoot. If we start marketing towards the Kilington crowd why don't we start operating the mountain like them as well to cater to our "new" customers and give them what they want. I'll grab my chainsaw and start clearing the lanes on CR to make them nice and wide. Someone grab that hose and lets set up a gun. If we make it an obsession to compete with Killing-me-a-ton then we're going to loose focus on making Sugarbush great for all of us. I think that Win recognizes this and let's help him focus on our mountain.

We can also all play a part. Every time I talk to someone I bring up Sugarbush. Usually starts off with "How's the snow up North" and my reply "Well at SB it's great". I've got friends who hop a bus out of Boston from Ski Market for a day trip up several times a year. It all started when we introduced them to it years back and they keep coming. If there were more loging (I think someone suggested hotel style) I'm sure they'd stay the night. Let's keep on track and attract people who want to be here to ski.

Of course this is just one guy talking.....

ski_resort_observer
02-08-2007, 07:52 PM
Driving up to the Bush from the Ct/NYC/NJ is certainly not a drive in the park but alot of people do it, alot go to Stowe as well. I see lots of cars from Ct/NY/NJ around here on the weekends, and I work in the main parking lots every Sat & Sun morning. A big chunk of the group buses we get every weekend are from the NYC area as well, Toronto/Montreal too.

No question the Boston market is very very important to the Bush but just by the sheer size of the metro NYC area it must be included in the Bush's marketing efforts to be successful IMHO. BTW the NY Times article cost practically nothing when compared to exposure the Bush got regarding the new LPV. The change in the exchange rate has also made the Bush a more attractive destination for Montreal/Toronto.

random_ski_guy
02-08-2007, 08:46 PM
I stand corrected (I wish I could figure out the quote thing). Anyway, I understand that serious skiers choose to go to Killington and in that respect, K-mart and SB do compete. But, when families choose to buy a ski house and invest in an area, those buyers from the NY metro area are looking at Okemo and/or Stratton, not k-mart. These are the customers that, I believe SB is competing for.

Howie, to use the quote tool, find the post you want to quote, click the quote button in the upper right hand corner within that quote and presto, a dialogue box appears for you to respond in. It took me a while to figure this out too.

I agree with you about the second home market. The question is, will a revitalized Kmart, under sound management, find a way to siphon off second home interest upon completing the Pico-Kmart interconnect. I don't think Kmart can do it until the interconnect happens. Most probably would disagree with that, but I think they need the interconnect first in order to give them the skier acreage to spread those crowds out. Once the crowds are redistributed, then you could try to get that base village going (second homes) at Snowshed/Ramshead. Yes, many Okemo & Stratton skiers will never go to Kmart, but a portion might reconsider once the interconnect is in. One other point, the interconnect is going to offer fabulous intermediate skiing. The grades on the slopes between Pico and Kmart are ideal for intermediate skiing. This thread highlights what think is a marketing mistake for Sugarbush; trying to compete against the southern Vt. resorts for the typical metro NY customer, who will always find the long drive past the southern Vermont resorts to get to Sugarbush too daunting. I understand that the size of the NY market can't be ignored,and that many past, present and future owners and visitors are from Metro NY. However, it seems that the Greater Boston market is where SV should be spending their marketing $. S.V.'s competitors for the Boston market are in NH, Maine and North of Killington. Sugarbush wins with skiing experience, at 3+ hours from greater Boston and is more beautiful than NH or Maine. Lastly, I wont make any gratuitous comments about the high number of NYers at Killington as another reason why Sugarbush is a better match for the Boston customer, but I think some of SV's marketing strategy is based on the distant past which has little relevance in today's market.

Boston is a great market to aim at, sure. But it's also a crowded market for ski areas. Don't Loon, Waterville and Sunday River advertise the heck out of that place? Even if they don't, I think comes down to population. The NY MSA has a population of 18.7M vs 4.4M for Boston. Killington, by the way, gets a decent share of Boston skiers too. The same easy ride from Beantown to SB also gets you to Kton.

Boston is a great market, but you can't ignore NY. You aim at both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_metropolitan_area

Tin Woodsman
02-08-2007, 09:13 PM
I couldn't agree more that we need to focus on what makes Sugarbush so great and ignore K-town. Obviously it attracted all of us and all the other skiers who currently call Sugarbush their ski mountain of choice and there's likely a damn good reason. Let's focus on that demograph and dominate in that area. That will continue to grow Sugarbush, but along the same concepts and standards that we feel are great. When you go to Kilington they have a huge night life scene where bars charge covers and have lines. Do we want that? Is that what we're about? Or are we about nice cozy barn type settings where the beer is cold and the music some Dead or Phish off-shoot. If we start marketing towards the Kilington crowd why don't we start operating the mountain like them as well to cater to our "new" customers and give them what they want. I'll grab my chainsaw and start clearing the lanes on CR to make them nice and wide. Someone grab that hose and lets set up a gun. If we make it an obsession to compete with Killing-me-a-ton then we're going to loose focus on making Sugarbush great for all of us. I think that Win recognizes this and let's help him focus on our mountain.

We can also all play a part. Every time I talk to someone I bring up Sugarbush. Usually starts off with "How's the snow up North" and my reply "Well at SB it's great". I've got friends who hop a bus out of Boston from Ski Market for a day trip up several times a year. It all started when we introduced them to it years back and they keep coming. If there were more loging (I think someone suggested hotel style) I'm sure they'd stay the night. Let's keep on track and attract people who want to be here to ski.

Of course this is just one guy talking.....

Are you done yet? :D

Seriously, SB is not competing for the same core skier that is attracted to K-Mart. Let's make that clear. But customers at any given ski area aren't monolithic. They form a spectrum, with some who couldn't think of skiing anywhere else, others who are just there b/c it's convenient or circumstance, and everything in between. As such, you tend to see a lot of overlap in the desires of the respective customer populations at most mountains. Now this obviously doesn't apply in all circumstances - there are few MRG acolytes who would be just as happy at Stratton - but it most certainly does for places like Okemo and Stratton, SB and Stowe, and, yes, SB and K-Mart.

My whole point during this discussion has been that so long as K-Mart has been operating with one hand tied behind its back, that slice of its customer base who would be predisposed to enjoying the SB experience have had little stopping them from venturing further afield to see for themselves. Should a well capitalized suitor take over K-Mart and pour some much needed capital into lifts, lodging, snowmaking, terrain expansion and, eventually, a base village, that slice will have much less motivation to drive the extra hour. It's really just that simple.

As for marketing to the NY metro - it will always be secondary to Boston as a feeder for SB. That's just geography. But when you consider the size of the tri-state area (LI, NYC, Northern NY, Westchester, Rocklad, Putnam, and Fairfield Counties have as many people as all of New England), you can't afford to ignore it. This is especially the case when yo consider the amount of wealth in the NY metro area - it absolutely dwarfs the Boston metro. It's not even particularly close. These are the people who buy 1/4 shares at Clay Brook and whatever buildings come next. And fear not, fair citizens of the Mad River Valley and other SB loyalists, if a NY area family is wiling to invest in that extra hour, is it not likely that skiing is important enough to them that they've got the right attitude for the MRV? Of course it is. Hell, I live in Manhattan and I'm not so bad, am I? At the end of the day, you only need about 100 extra families to see the light in order to make the LP base village a smashing success.

random_ski_guy
02-08-2007, 09:23 PM
I couldn't agree more that we need to focus on what makes Sugarbush so great and ignore K-town. Obviously it attracted all of us and all the other skiers who currently call Sugarbush their ski mountain of choice and there's likely a damn good reason. Let's focus on that demograph and dominate in that area. That will continue to grow Sugarbush, but along the same concepts and standards that we feel are great. When you go to Kilington they have a huge night life scene where bars charge covers and have lines. Do we want that? Is that what we're about? Or are we about nice cozy barn type settings where the beer is cold and the music some Dead or Phish off-shoot. If we start marketing towards the Kilington crowd why don't we start operating the mountain like them as well to cater to our "new" customers and give them what they want. I'll grab my chainsaw and start clearing the lanes on CR to make them nice and wide. Someone grab that hose and lets set up a gun. If we make it an obsession to compete with Killing-me-a-ton then we're going to loose focus on making Sugarbush great for all of us. I think that Win recognizes this and let's help him focus on our mountain.

We can also all play a part. Every time I talk to someone I bring up Sugarbush. Usually starts off with "How's the snow up North" and my reply "Well at SB it's great". I've got friends who hop a bus out of Boston from Ski Market for a day trip up several times a year. It all started when we introduced them to it years back and they keep coming. If there were more loging (I think someone suggested hotel style) I'm sure they'd stay the night. Let's keep on track and attract people who want to be here to ski.

Of course this is just one guy talking.....

I see where you are coming from and all I can say is not to worry. The unique culture ingrained in the MRV isn't going to roll over tomorrow and become like the zany business folks on the Kmart access road. SB just needs to stay on message and keep doing what Win has been doing. There are plenty of nice people who would love SB if they only gave it a shot. They just don't know it yet.

I think the reason some of us are concerned about a rejuvenated Kmart is because it will (in my mind) no doubt give SB a harder time in growing skier visits. You are already a loyal SB skier, so no worry there. Perhaps 1/2 of the skier visits at SB are from loyalist who would never consider venturing anywhere else (on a regular basis). As nice as the dedicated following is, Mgmt needs to increase skier and lodging visits anyway if the mtn and surrounding business are going to be successful. I would argue that at this point, SB is probably 100k light in annual skier visits from where they want to be. Current mgmt has taken a big risk in investing in a new LP village. They are about to take more risks by investing in more summer programs and golf course improvements, not to mention the guest services lodge. These are investments that need growth in visits to pan out. SB will not survive without SOME growth. In a flat industry, which is what skiing is, you need to Rob from Peter to pay Paul. Peter is about to get stronger. Thats all.

I don't think there is a soul at Summit Ventures or on this chat board that is saying hey, lets be more like Kmart. When I said man your marketing battlestations, what I meant is, its about to get harder to sell the SB experience....not to change the SB experience.

Cheers :)

Tin Woodsman
02-08-2007, 09:28 PM
Get out of my head!!!!

HowieT2
02-08-2007, 10:04 PM
With respect to the NY metro area, the fastest growing suburbs are north of the City and therefore closer to SB. I'm on the access road in 4 hours from Northern Westchester. I truly believe that with the new facilities and a marketing campaign, SB can get its slice of the pie from NY.

Treeskier
02-08-2007, 10:26 PM
If this happens we have a small window to gain some quality clients. To me we are the end of the skier food chain. You've learned how to ski at the feeder hills. You've skied the local big hills. (like Loon, Waterville, Sunippee in the Boston market....Hunter, Mt Snow in the NY market) Then you ski the big hills (Kmart, Sunday River, Straton...) but you get tired of the crouds and the generic terain. That is why you are willing to drive the next bit to ski the natural and better hills. If Kmart and the rest of the ASC hills are solds and are thrown into a turmoil this would be a good time to pull the cream of the crop (who do not own property already at those hills) to try our hill and the hopefully buy passes, seasonal rentals and possibilly property in the valley. We are already marketing to them. This spring is a chance to pull a trump card. Most of us know, to the addicts of skiing, end up skiing a day or few at Kmart after there hill closes. The more South you are the more Kmart/Sugarbush/Stowe days you will go to. This year we could draw a bunch of those addicts in if we stay open long. (My observation is for every addict there is at the least a family if not a group of follower who may or may not ski with the addict late season but will follow him/her the following season if they decide to find a new home.) In such I suggest we stay open longer. Offer to all pass holders fom other MTs a discount ticket if they show there pass.(and we get there contact information). We really only want good skier and their family/friends. We do not need or want Joeeees.

freeheel_skier
02-08-2007, 10:38 PM
With respect to the NY metro area, the fastest growing suburbs are north of the City and therefore closer to SB. I'm on the access road in 4 hours from Northern Westchester. I truly believe that with the new facilities and a marketing campaign, SB can get its slice of the pie from NY.

I think Howie is right! My brother lives in Manhattan and can get into the valley in less than 5hr.

Don't forget about people from Phila. that is a long haul.....but on the vacation weeks and long weekends they will drive the 7hrs. too. I do realize they(Phily) are less than the NY/CT & NY/CT. But I do think more people are from the Boston area.....I mean Mass. Focus should be on the NY metro...even if some are Yankees fans :shock: The Mets I can deal with :lol:

Mike_451
02-08-2007, 10:46 PM
Amazing how explosive these ASC rumor threads become :roll:

ski_resort_observer
02-08-2007, 11:00 PM
Marketing is such an unexact science, so subjective in nature, perhaps the best marketing tool of all is Sugarbush the ski hill, the product...the terrain, great guest service and great facilities. Not only meeting customer expectations but working hard to exceed them. The Bush is the middle of some great improvements.

With any big changes come new challenges, some as small as helping a guest find his car keyes after he lost them in the snow(not as easy as it sounds) or putting a temp floor with a non-slip surface in the Gatehouse cafeteria. Most are being met numerous times all over the resort everyday.

I'm sure the Bush's marketing department works hard and does a great job. Throw in the added marketing windfalls in the name of the NY Times and the Ski Mag articles combined with the great job Win did on that CEO show, seen in Boston, I think things are looking very good around here.

CapeSkiGuy
02-08-2007, 11:21 PM
I couldn't agree more that we need to focus on what makes Sugarbush so great and ignore K-town. Obviously it attracted all of us and all the other skiers who currently call Sugarbush their ski mountain of choice and there's likely a damn good reason. Let's focus on that demograph and dominate in that area. That will continue to grow Sugarbush, but along the same concepts and standards that we feel are great. When you go to Kilington they have a huge night life scene where bars charge covers and have lines. Do we want that? Is that what we're about? Or are we about nice cozy barn type settings where the beer is cold and the music some Dead or Phish off-shoot. If we start marketing towards the Kilington crowd why don't we start operating the mountain like them as well to cater to our "new" customers and give them what they want. I'll grab my chainsaw and start clearing the lanes on CR to make them nice and wide. Someone grab that hose and lets set up a gun. If we make it an obsession to compete with Killing-me-a-ton then we're going to loose focus on making Sugarbush great for all of us. I think that Win recognizes this and let's help him focus on our mountain.

We can also all play a part. Every time I talk to someone I bring up Sugarbush. Usually starts off with "How's the snow up North" and my reply "Well at SB it's great". I've got friends who hop a bus out of Boston from Ski Market for a day trip up several times a year. It all started when we introduced them to it years back and they keep coming. If there were more loging (I think someone suggested hotel style) I'm sure they'd stay the night. Let's keep on track and attract people who want to be here to ski.

Of course this is just one guy talking.....

I see where you are coming from and all I can say is not to worry. The unique culture ingrained in the MRV isn't going to roll over tomorrow and become like the zany business folks on the Kmart access road. SB just needs to stay on message and keep doing what Win has been doing. There are plenty of nice people who would love SB if they only gave it a shot. They just don't know it yet.

I think the reason some of us are concerned about a rejuvenated Kmart is because it will (in my mind) no doubt give SB a harder time in growing skier visits. You are already a loyal SB skier, so no worry there. Perhaps 1/2 of the skier visits at SB are from loyalist who would never consider venturing anywhere else (on a regular basis). As nice as the dedicated following is, Mgmt needs to increase skier and lodging visits anyway if the mtn and surrounding business are going to be successful. I would argue that at this point, SB is probably 100k light in annual skier visits from where they want to be. Current mgmt has taken a big risk in investing in a new LP village. They are about to take more risks by investing in more summer programs and golf course improvements, not to mention the guest services lodge. These are investments that need growth in visits to pan out. SB will not survive without SOME growth. In a flat industry, which is what skiing is, you need to Rob from Peter to pay Paul. Peter is about to get stronger. Thats all.

I don't think there is a soul at Summit Ventures or on this chat board that is saying hey, lets be more like Kmart. When I said man your marketing battlestations, what I meant is, its about to get harder to sell the SB experience....not to change the SB experience.

Cheers :)

I believe there are plenty of people who will love SB and don't yet know it. Last week, I brought a buddy to SB for his first time. He has been skiing for years at Okemo and Killingmywallet. He's been absolutely converted. He actually drove to SB from Hartford, instead of looking at a map and saying no, and that did it. One more for the good guys. How about if each one of us got one friend to come to SB this season and give us a shot? There would be a lot more people like my friend. I believe that people who want to be at K so badly are probably not going to like the valley anyway. They want nightclubs, shops, and a "scene". But there are people who go there because they go there...out of habit, familiarity, whatever. These are the folks we can strip away from K, one skier family at a time. Not everyone at K likes the experience, especially when they get past the party-nightclub-drink kamikazes at the Pickle Barrel age. I left it behind when the kids came along. It didn't feel right. For me the valley feels right, SB feels right, and everywhere I go I meet new friends. No such thing at K. There are more like me, and we can reach them.

win
02-09-2007, 05:30 PM
Dear CapeSkiGuy,
Your marketing idea is the best there is. Most people - including myself - came here because a friend introduced them. Thank you for bringing your friend and suggesting this approach.

CapeSkiGuy
02-09-2007, 06:08 PM
Thanks, Win. Coming from you, that means a lot.

sugarboarder
02-10-2007, 09:15 PM
Dear CapeSkiGuy,
Your marketing idea is the best there is. Most people - including myself - came here because a friend introduced them. Thank you for bringing your friend and suggesting this approach.

Can I use this technique with snowboarders too?? I promise I'll only bring the ones that won't "double-dude" you...you know..."DUDE, dude"!!

freeheel_skier
02-10-2007, 10:06 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:


Can I use this technique with snowboarders too?? I promise I'll only bring the ones that won't "double-dude" you...you know..."DUDE, dude"!!

Mike_451
02-10-2007, 10:09 PM
Strat, I hear freeheelers saying the same thing all the time, Yeah I am sure I could get on a snowboard and love it, same goes for freeheeling, but I have a pair of boards, with bindings that keep my heels nice and secure, that I love, and I don't plan to cheat any time soon :wink: