PDA

View Full Version : Sugarbush Tree / Glade Discussion



smootharc
01-04-2007, 09:47 AM
Thought perhaps a thread dedicated to the art of SB bark eating might be interesting. There's been some discussion scattered about in threads on terrain expansion, etc. But nothing that centralizes this issue.....a complex one when you consider USFS, the Resort, and Skier wants, needs, access issues and regulations. Toss in new research (see Jay Appleton at MRG) on maintaining healthy tree/glade skiing, and we've got an inherently complex topic.

I'm not proposing discussion/exposure of tree lines and stashes here....cause I don't want to get beaten up by a pack of bearded glade beasts and their burly girlfriends (:wink:).

One thing that seems to be constantly running through my head as I ski and ride lifts at SB and look around at various areas readily visible is....."Gee, with a small bit of clean up that little tree zone would be sweet !". There seem to be almost limitless areas of potential for "tree micropods".....and thus frustration to see them choked with blow down and small brush/trees.

Testing one named gladed area last Saturday presented a place full of blow down and some very large obstacles on prime lines that weren't there last season. Bummer. I realize we haven't had lots of snow to load and cover many of these obstacles, so perhaps my observations are premature....but there were some obstacles that seemed like 400" of snow would be needed to cover them up.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind hearing from folks regarding tree/glade related aspects of the SB ski experience, past, present, and future approach and planning. There's obviously the "Jay Peak Approach" and "The Mad River Glen" approach, and in-between approaches.....and who's to say what's right for the near term and distant future. I do know that I love tree skiing, generally feel the natural snow in the trees is as good as it usually gets compared to any trails on a mountain, and that more tree skiing takes pressure off of regular trails for those who stick to them, and in some sense the lift system as it spreads and slows skiers down (well, in theory, anyways).

I feel it a huge marketing positive for a resort to be able to point to tree skiing / gladed areas....it says to the advanced + skier "We've got options.....lots and lots of interesting terrain options". A good thing that brings paying customers to the table.

One question: Are there any plans for summer volunteer work crew days guided by resort/forest service folks, at least to clear obvious blow downs in existing gladed areas ? Curious.

Anybody ?

ski_it
01-04-2007, 10:45 AM
Good topic for discussion. Win responded to some of the issues raised last spring in the Alpine Zone Challenge and it's worth a reread: http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2006/response.htm?resort=sugarbush (#3)
I'm definitely interested in hearing an update. In particular, it was mentioned that a vegetation management plan was being written for USFS land that would be in place by this past fall and that a plan "more consistent with the MRG model" was in place for Sugarbush's private land (primarily Mt. Ellen). Practically speaking, it'd be great to know a bit about what maintenance work was done in the "named" wooded/glade ski areas over the off-season. I haven't been in the woods yet-- I sustained my fair share of base damage on-piste last week, let along going off-piste.

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2007, 10:45 AM
One question: Are there any plans for summer volunteer work crew days guided by resort/forest service folks, at least to clear obvious blow downs in existing gladed areas ? Curious.

Anybody ?

I've asked about this a few times and the answer I've consistently received is something along the lines of, "It's complicated. We're moving in the right direction, but ti will take some time to sort out the internal and USFS issues before moving ahead."

Obviously with guys like Egan and Atkinson in positions of influence, that helps the cause. My preference would be to move beyond tha halfway house approach adopted with the new gladed terrain at North - i.e. on the map but not patrolled/opened/closed. I think the MRG approach really is the right way to go.

1) Adopt a resort-wide tree/glading/forestry strategy with first principles trnaslated down to specific goals and tactics

2) Utilize volunteer crews in the summer to aid in the effort to promote overall forestry health and expnasion/maintenance of gladed terrain.

3) Mutliple areas to focus on with this strategy:

- maintenance of existing on-map glades
- expansion and maintenance of off-map glades
- maintenance and repair of formerly gladed trails like Glade, Sleeper, Lower Moonshine, Lower Domino
- maintenance and repair of trail edges on snowmaking runs like Ripcord where the trail edges are moving ever outward due to snowmaking and high elevation exposure damage
- Slidebrook, and all the issues that come with it

Lots of thinking to be done here. This ain't no piddly 800 acre MRG. This is 4000 acres of VT badness to care for and preserve for future generations.

castlerock
01-04-2007, 11:19 AM
I asked this question of Win and Co at the "community weekend" presentation 15 months ago. I got the "it's complicated" answer. Since then there has been nothing new that I know of on this subject.

Something needs to be done. I enjoy skiing here, but last year I went to Jay for the first time since 1968. ( I was seven then). It was fantastic. I had no local knowledge, but spent the whole day in the woods, with much more enjoyable conditions than I have had in 5 seasons skiing here every weekend (in the woods whenever possible). The woods (I am not talking about "on map" stuff) were in much better shape, safer to ski and much more fun than here.

If we could do something like that, there would be more lift tickets sold here....Jay is now drawing the regular dedicated non-pass holder skier from the Boston market. Most of the folks I used to ski with in the 80s are doing the Jay shuffle on the half dozen ski weekends they take a year. I know it isn't the Manhattan crowd that buys at Claybrook, but they are the dedicated lifelong skier, that spends money on lift tickets ESPECIALLY on non-holiday weekends.....

walks
01-04-2007, 11:22 AM
Everythings better at Jay. Chain saws and Matches?

ahm
01-04-2007, 11:43 AM
This is a very regular thread on so many skiing boards, and I find it quite interesting. Many post wanting to "know" about policies, terrain, "what's out there", etc, but few do I see doing the "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike, approach to tree skiing. I think this may have something to do with "how much time you have available" as well as how "serious" a woods/backcountry skier you are.

I regularly ski the terrain that is available on both sides of the mountain, using Lincoln gap as one boundary and the end of Mt E as the other. This can extend to both sides of the ridge. However, be aware if you decide to drop over the ridge to the backside, that there is a great deal of logistics you need to deal with.

All of this brings me to the idiocy of my subject header which is "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike" all before you drop in. These three things are essential to backcountry skiing that doesn't not involve ski areas and that crosses avalanche terrain. Consequently, I like to see woods skiers using a similar approach. It aids in safety, understanding, and will blossom into a much more serious approach to finding "the goods".

To find much of the skiable terrain that I use, I find by hiking the terrain in the off season and understanding the lines and brooks, I can maximize the "fun" factor once the snow falls. Obviously, when trail density is as low as it is at SB, the areas between the trails can offer some very nice woods skiing, and most of those routes are rather obvious and quite safe, short of hitting a tree or a toe tripper. This is why I would be careful going in "too early". My view is that there isn't really a snow pack and that unless we get a significant dump, woods skiing would be a bit risky at the moment. Not that I do not like risk, but if I am going to risk potential injury, the line is gonna be quite good and currently those lines just aren't available.

Smootharc talks about some new debris. Ahh, welcome to the "woods skiers world", the lines change every year, hence the hike, hike, part.

Tin would love a full blown Fortune 20 policy complete with powerpoint presentation. Unfortunately Tin, woods skiing doesn't really adopt well to a "hard and fast policy". It is one of those things that is passed down from generations, new lines are discovered and developed by a combination of old and new timers (just like Mike Douglass brought us a lot of new school skiing).

Obviously, for many they would love to do some of what TIn wants: organized trimming with volunteer crews etc. But some issues there surround liability and having people work on weekends, as that is when most maintenance get togethers are. So, bringing this "idea" to fruition is still a ways off.

I would encourage all tree skiers and those interested in discussing to have a more casual get together and see what comes of it...........................The Tav bar with some 60 min IPAs would be a great spot..........................I'll be there this Friday, and Sat (unless of course we have our in-depth snowmaking discussion that some have requested).

Right now I am finishing off my weekend preparations by covering my goretex jkt with polyurethane and installing wipers on my turbo fan googles so I am better equiped to handle the ncp that we seem to be getting this season so far...........until one of these pub sessions...................................it's back to W-O-R-K (which for me today is transition training.....................yep, as they transition, so will I.................to the ski area!!!

ski_resort_observer
01-04-2007, 11:50 AM
This is a very regular thread on so many skiing boards, and I find it quite interesting. Many post wanting to "know" about policies, terrain, "what's out there", etc, but few do I see doing the "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike, approach to tree skiing. I think this may have something to do with "how much time you have available" as well as how "serious" a woods/backcountry skier you are.

I regularly ski the terrain that is available on both sides of the mountain, using Lincoln gap as one boundary and the end of Mt E as the other. This can extend to both sides of the ridge. However, be aware if you decide to drop over the ridge to the backside, that there is a great deal of logistics you need to deal with.

All of this brings me to the idiocy of my subject header which is "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike" all before you drop in. These three things are essential to backcountry skiing that doesn't not involve ski areas and that crosses avalanche terrain. Consequently, I like to see woods skiers using a similar approach. It aids in safety, understanding, and will blossom into a much more serious approach to finding "the goods".

To find much of the skiable terrain that I use, I find by hiking the terrain in the off season and understanding the lines and brooks, I can maximize the "fun" factor once the snow falls. Obviously, when trail density is as low as it is at SB, the areas between the trails can offer some very nice woods skiing, and most of those routes are rather obvious and quite safe, short of hitting a tree or a toe tripper. This is why I would be careful going in "too early". My view is that there isn't really a snow pack and that unless we get a significant dump, woods skiing would be a bit risky at the moment. Not that I do not like risk, but if I am going to risk potential injury, the line is gonna be quite good and currently those lines just aren't available.

Smootharc talks about some new debris. Ahh, welcome to the "woods skiers world", the lines change every year, hence the hike, hike, part.

Tin would love a full blown Fortune 20 policy complete with powerpoint presentation. Unfortunately Tin, woods skiing doesn't really adopt well to a "hard and fast policy". It is one of those things that is passed down from generations, new lines are discovered and developed by a combination of old and new timers (just like Mike Douglass brought us a lot of new school skiing).

Obviously, for many they would love to do some of what TIn wants: organized trimming with volunteer crews etc. But some issues there surround liability and having people work on weekends, as that is when most maintenance get togethers are. So, bringing this "idea" to fruition is still a ways off.

I would encourage all tree skiers and those interested in discussing to have a more casual get together and see what comes of it...........................The Tav bar with some 60 min IPAs would be a great spot..........................I'll be there this Friday, and Sat (unless of course we have our in-depth snowmaking discussion that some have requested).

Right now I am finishing off my weekend preparations by covering my goretex jkt with polyurethane and installing wipers on my turbo fan googles so I am better equiped to handle the ncp that we seem to be getting this season so far...........until one of these pub sessions...................................it's back to W-O-R-K (which for me today is transition training.....................yep, as they transition, so will I.................to the ski area!!!

AHM...this is the best post you have put up in awhile. You didn't mention Europe or South America once.... :wink:

noski
01-04-2007, 12:12 PM
AHM...this is the best post you have put up in awhile. You didn't mention Europe or South America once.... :wink:
...or Puerto Rico!

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2007, 12:20 PM
Tin would love a full blown Fortune 20 policy complete with powerpoint presentation. Unfortunately Tin, woods skiing doesn't really adopt well to a "hard and fast policy". It is one of those things that is passed down from generations, new lines are discovered and developed by a combination of old and new timers (just like Mike Douglass brought us a lot of new school skiing).

Obviously, for many they would love to do some of what TIn wants: organized trimming with volunteer crews etc. But some issues there surround liability and having people work on weekends, as that is when most maintenance get togethers are. So, bringing this "idea" to fruition is still a ways off.


Great post for sure, but I think you've misinterpreted what I'm looking for. No 20 page Powerpoint decks needed. First, a simple missions statement ala the one I just pulled from the Stark Mountain Foundation home page:


The Stark Mountain Foundation is a charitable 501(c)(3) organization, formed to support the Mad River Glen Cooperative's mission to "preserve and protect the forests and mountain ecosystem of Stark Mountain in order to provide skiing and other recreational access and to maintain the unique character of the area for present and future generations

Buttress that mission statement with a set of specific goals and plans focussing on the issues I mentioned above. From SBs perspective, yes this will take planning. But you wouldn't want to just stumble into this and make a bunch of mistakes before adding value - mistakes can have 50-70 year consequences up here.

Wouldn't it be great to have a policy in place enabling volunteer or mountain crews to go in and clean up and/or cordon off the mess that is Paradise Woods? How about the rehabilitation of the gladed aspects of Murphy's Tree and Sleeper? Given that snowmaking is one of the chielf culprits of the demise of the gladed skiing experience on those trails, you have to have holistic approach that moves beyond just roping off tree islands etc...

What you need is a simple set of principles which can embrace a multitude of strategies and tactics to confront the vast diversity of issues, problems and scenarios you'll face out on the hill. No master plans needed.

HowieT2
01-04-2007, 12:20 PM
Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?
I understand that there are different approaches taken by Jay and MRG. There is an article in the current issue of Skiing magazine about the MRG approach. How is Jay different?

IMHO- tree skiing is the best thing to happen to the sport. But there can be too much of a good thing. Opening up too much terrain will inevitably lead to it's degradation. Leaving some blow downs allows for some renewal.

ski_resort_observer
01-04-2007, 01:05 PM
Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?
I understand that there are different approaches taken by Jay and MRG. There is an article in the current issue of Skiing magazine about the MRG approach. How is Jay different?

IMHO- tree skiing is the best thing to happen to the sport. But there can be too much of a good thing. Opening up too much terrain will inevitably lead to it's degradation. Leaving some blow downs allows for some renewal.

I think Jay has had glades as part of their regular terrain for at least 40 years. I first skied it in the early 70's, loved it but don't remember any other resort having it as a "regular" thing at that time. Everyone else is now trying to catch up since it has become an "in thing" for the masses.

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2007, 01:18 PM
Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?
I understand that there are different approaches taken by Jay and MRG. There is an article in the current issue of Skiing magazine about the MRG approach. How is Jay different?

IMHO- tree skiing is the best thing to happen to the sport. But there can be too much of a good thing. Opening up too much terrain will inevitably lead to it's degradation. Leaving some blow downs allows for some renewal.

Make no mistake that there are serious downsides to the Jay approach as well, specifically in relation to the glade skiing experience. Yes you'll get more people into the trees, but you'll end up with mogul runs in the woods, which is what you want to avoid. With its relatively modern lift system, this is what regularly happens at Jay. MRG is able to avoid this fate b/c there is only so much capacity on the Single and the Sunnyside Double. Even a mountain as large as SB would see its tree areas get swamped if SB were to publicize and bring on-map everything that's out there, given it's moden lift system.

Be careful what you wish for.

castlerock
01-04-2007, 01:22 PM
Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?

We'll leave the snow amounts out of it, (but maybe it is the issue). But I felt there were two differences. One was the distinct lack of "toe trippers". Maybe it was due to the snow depth, maybe it wasn't.

The second was it felt like there was always an opening, the lines never closed out.

Those are the things that I'd like to see here. Some knock down of dead fall, and maybe a strategic pruning here or there. I would love to be part of it.

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2007, 01:42 PM
Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?

We'll leave the snow amounts out of it, (but maybe it is the issue). But I felt there were two differences. One was the distinct lack of "toe trippers". Maybe it was due to the snow depth, maybe it wasn't.

The second was it felt like there was always an opening, the lines never closed out.

Those are the things that I'd like to see here. Some knock down of dead fall, and maybe a strategic pruning here or there. I would love to be part of it.

If that's the case, then I'm on board with that.

Where do I sign up?

HowieT2
01-04-2007, 01:57 PM
I've never skied Jay so I can't comment on what's there, but as far as toe tippers, that is merely a function of the snow depth. As for pruning at SB, I would argue that there should be less pruning. Look at what's happening in the woods off Paradise. It's getting too open and losing character.

atkinson
01-04-2007, 02:10 PM
Apples and oranges, folks.

Jay is privately owned and has to go through Act 250 for their glade work, but it is a fairly direct process. We're not talking a new hotel or golf course, just some thinning, which can be good for the flora and fauna, if done correctly. Plus, the fact that the mountain is owned by the resort, less stringent efforts are made to control unsanctioned cutting.

Sugarbush, with the exception of some corners of Mount Ellen, is either GMNF or under special conditions, like Slide Brook. The levels of oversight and permitting are expotentially larger than at Jay or MRG, regardless of how benign our presence might be. And the USFS rangers do wander the woods looking for unsanctioned cutting, which is partly why some of our unofficial woods have fallen into greater disrepair over the last ten years. However, I'd like to see this tradition legitimized and organized in a greater way than it is now. We do have legal volunteer work crews in Slide Brook every summer and fall already though. Thank you Outback Guides and supporters!

Egan and I (and a number of other folks) are working on expanding and improving our glade/ off-piste skiing possibilities, but to say that it's complicated is an understatement. The newer lines at Mount Ellen are hopefully just a start, but be aware that these happened on Sugarbush-owned land for a reason.

With regards to the woods policy of not open/ not closed, this is exactly the same as MRG's policy. Personal responsibility is a good thing.

As for closeout lines, I don't ski those much. Which ones are you talking about? Care to share? ;)

John

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/515/bbellartsm.jpg

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2007, 02:16 PM
Sugarbush, with the exception of some corners of Mount Ellen, is either GMNF or under special conditions, like Slide Brook. The levels of oversight and permitting are expotentially larger than at Jay or MRG, regardless of how benign our presence might be. And the USFS rangers do wander the woods looking for unsanctioned cutting, which is partly why some of our unofficial woods have fallen into greater disrepair over the last ten years. However, I'd like to see this tradition legitimized and organized in a greater way than it is now. We do have legal volunteer work crews in Slide Brook every summer and fall already though. Thank you Outback Guides and supporters!
Too bad I never saw/heard anything about this, as I would have been there with bells on. Any chance it will be more publicized here or on the official site going forward?



With regards to the woods policy of not open/ not closed, this is exactly the same as MRG's policy. Personal responsibility is a good thing.
Yes it is a good thing. The primary difference I was pointing to was the fact that the new terrain at ME is now on the map, whereas work done at MRG stays undercover. My guess is that this tact was taken as a one-time move to help increase skier visits at Ellen with Hardy trying to breath life into Club North at the time. Hopefully, this will be the last on-map glade created by you folks.

skiladi
01-04-2007, 03:50 PM
Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?
I understand that there are different approaches taken by Jay and MRG. There is an article in the current issue of Skiing magazine about the MRG approach. How is Jay different?

IMHO- tree skiing is the best thing to happen to the sport. But there can be too much of a good thing. Opening up too much terrain will inevitably lead to it's degradation. Leaving some blow downs allows for some renewal.

Normally , I don't think it is , just more open but I do love Andre's! Last season they just had that Jay cloud thing going when no one else could buy a flake. I would like to get my hands on the person that chainsawed a white birch in Timbuktu and left 4' of it hanging out at hip level. Just looked like snow to me but I hit hard and a hematoma on the femur ended my season with a couple weeks left in April. :cry: Could have been worse. Nothing broken. But I got spun around heading backwards screaming What the..!! ; }

BushMogulMaster
01-04-2007, 04:01 PM
WARNING... LARGE PICTURE. Sorry to those of you using dialup. :)


Sugarbush, with the exception of some corners of Mount Ellen, is either GMNF or under special conditions, like Slide Brook.

Not saying you're wrong, John (you probably know much more about it than the rest of us)... but the map below shows that most of Mount Ellen is Sugarbush property. Correct me if I'm wrong??? Or maybe you could fill us in if there are some special conditions???



http://www.sugarbushhistory.com/sbland.jpg

Strat
01-04-2007, 04:51 PM
Nice image! Anything else of that nature to share/possibly implement in our new website project?

BushMogulMaster
01-04-2007, 04:54 PM
Nice image! Anything else of that nature to share/possibly implement in our new website project?

A few things here and there. I'm not going to post them here at the moment, but they'll definitely go on the new website! 8)

win
01-04-2007, 05:14 PM
John's answer is a good one, and I do not have much to add to it. While most of Mt. Ellen is ours, we are still subject to Act 250 and other regulations. Our goal is to do more as fast as we can, but it is complicated and takes some time to do various studies inorder to get approval. Unfortunately, it is also not really something to discuss on a public blog.

random_ski_guy
01-04-2007, 05:20 PM
Sweet Image Maestro! We all owe you a drink! :D

BushMogulMaster
01-04-2007, 05:21 PM
John's answer is a good one, and I do not have much to add to it. While most of Mt. Ellen is ours, we are still subject to Act 250 and other regulations. Our goal is to do more as fast as we can, but it is complicated and takes some time to do various studies inorder to get approval. Unfortunately, it is also not really something to discuss on a public blog.

Understandable. Thanks for the info. Act 250 definitely takes a lot of work to deal with, no matter what you're trying to do.

notorious
01-04-2007, 05:29 PM
John's answer is a good one, and I do not have much to add to it. While most of Mt. Ellen is ours, we are still subject to Act 250 and other regulations. Our goal is to do more as fast as we can, but it is complicated and takes some time to do various studies inorder to get approval. Unfortunately, it is also not really something to discuss on a public blog.

Which is precisely why I have nothing to say (here) on a subject most dear to me. But Win, could we please all have a discussion or two in person? There is a lot of downage out there which could have been addressed ala MRG (where I have done volly clean up time in light of my "one ridge and it's all ours" philosophy) That's all I'll say.

freeheel_skier
01-04-2007, 05:54 PM
Just p/u the a copy of the Distorter. Act 250 hearings are mentioned all over the place. Reading some of the articles might shed some insight on how complicated some things can be......politics alwasy play a roll too.

walks
01-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Jay-Make as many turns as you want without Hitting a tree, Hooking your boots and ski under a tree, having a branch stick you in the eye.

The Bush-Make 2 turns and have a branch poke your eye out so you hook your ski and fall head first into a tree.

With that being said. I look for every opening I can find.

Abe Froman
01-04-2007, 11:06 PM
Jay-Make as many turns as you want without Hitting a tree, Hooking your boots and ski under a tree, having a branch stick you in the eye.

The Bush-Make 2 turns and have a branch poke your eye out so you hook your ski and fall head first into a tree.

With that being said. I look for every opening I can find.

:? What? C'Mon will ya?

P.S. Okay back to lurkerville :D

castlerock
01-04-2007, 11:26 PM
Jay-Make as many turns as you want without Hitting a tree, Hooking your boots and ski under a tree, having a branch stick you in the eye.

The Bush-Make 2 turns and have a branch poke your eye out so you hook your ski and fall head first into a tree.

With that being said. I look for every opening I can find.

:? What? C'Mon will ya?

P.S. Okay back to lurkerville :D

Walks has a point. The "between trail" woods at Sugarbush, are full of deadfall and a lot of low/broken off branches that are ready to impale you. That is the stuff that gets cleaned up at Jay. The deadfall is what I fear most. I have a recurring nightmare of having one foot sheared off while cruising in the woods between Jester and Grinder.

As for Walks, he speaks from experience, as he does look for every opening he can find. He is always in the woods, as soon as there is enough snow. (which there definitely isn't yet, except probably at Jay, or at least that is what he will tell you!)

ski_resort_observer
01-05-2007, 12:03 AM
Jay-Make as many turns as you want without Hitting a tree, Hooking your boots and ski under a tree, having a branch stick you in the eye.

The Bush-Make 2 turns and have a branch poke your eye out so you hook your ski and fall head first into a tree.

With that being said. I look for every opening I can find.

:? What? C'Mon will ya?

P.S. Okay back to lurkerville :D

Walks has a point. The "between trail" woods at Sugarbush, are full of deadfall and a lot of low/broken off branches that are ready to impale you. That is the stuff that gets cleaned up at Jay. The deadfall is what I fear most. I have a recurring nightmare of having one foot sheared off while cruising in the woods between Jester and Grinder.

As for Walks, he speaks from experience, as he does look for every opening he can find. He is always in the woods, as soon as there is enough snow. (which there definitely isn't yet, except probably at Jay, or at least that is what he will tell you!)

To further your points, while mostly a problem out west but can happen for us if we go thru a long dry spell is the issue of reducing deadfall and other tree debris which results in a reduction of forest fire danger. Also, while it's unnatural removing this stuff it does greatly improve the forest floor ecosystem in several ways which I believe all parties involved strive for.

atkinson
01-05-2007, 11:36 AM
Somehow I manage to find thirty or forty turns in a row sometimes in the woods. I don't ski bad woods if I can avoid it.

As for why every twig between trails isn't manicured, see my reply above. We have a very different regulatory climate than just about any other ski area in Vermont. Regardless of how much sense it makes to us, we can't just clean up every thing we want to. Yet. Or maybe ever.

I encourage folks with a deep interest to read the USFS GMNF plan that was just approved. You can get a copy on-line at the USFS site. It will shed some light on the regulations. Just for a little snapshot of what I am talking about, Sugarbush is not allowed to take pictures or video on the mountain without a special permit.

Sorry for any confusion regarding Mount Ellen. Indeed it is correct that most of the trails and inbounds terrain are owned by Sugarbush. However, I look at the mountain as more than just the trails.

John

castlerock
01-05-2007, 11:51 AM
Yes there are lines that are long and sweet. But there could be more!

But, really no one is asking for manicured twigs.

I will look up the regs as I am interested, the picture/video regulation does sound ridiculous.

Strat
01-05-2007, 03:16 PM
Just for a little snapshot of what I am talking about, Sugarbush is not allowed to take pictures or video on the mountain without a special permit.
John
I'd assume they've already obtained this permit? That's pretty damn severe anyway...