Ongoing Mtn Ops Discussion

[Tin Woodsman]

A few observations from the last four days of skiing

1) Great job by the mtn taking the time to ski pack Spillsville and Black Diamond. This will (already has) pay dividends in the future when the snows come.

2) IMHO, a little bit of weak sauce on the snowmaking effort Wednesday. Great to see them making snow all the way down to the base on Straight Shot, but the gaps on lower Cruiser and Mainstream were absolutely brutal. At a minimum, there should have been a focus on opening that lower piece of Cruiser just above Times Square so as to provide and alternate route around the narrow ice rink that was Mainstream. Looked like a few more guns were starting up towards the end of the day in that area yesterday, so it looks like someone got the memo. Wish that would have started 10 hours sooner - temps were there.

3) Otherwise, most of North skied beautifully yesterday, with the exception of Lookin Good, which was Skiin Bad. Pretty sure it wasn't grooomed, to what benefit I don't know.

4) The aforementioned efforts on Spillsville are beginning to pay dividends with the opening of that trail yesterday. Looks like the grassy Birdland and the upper part of Bravo have been opened to the public today. I like it. The more options, the better, even if coverage is sketchball.

5) What's next? Got to think Hotshot/Waterfall gets hit once Pushover is done. Then probably Glade or Birdland or Snowball/Spring Fling. My money would be on the latter combo. And at North? Northway then Which Way then Cliffs me thinks. Sorry for those GMVS guys - Inverness might take a while - it's too damn big to make sense to target early.

[BushMogulMaster]

A few observations from the last four days of skiing

1) Great job by the mtn taking the time to ski pack Spillsville and Black Diamond. This will (already has) pay dividends in the future when the snows come.

I think you mean Bravo. But I agree. Definitely a big help.


2) IMHO, a little bit of weak sauce on the snowmaking effort Wednesday. Great to see them making snow all the way down to the base on Straight Shot, but the gaps on lower Cruiser and Mainstream were absolutely brutal. At a minimum, there should have been a focus on opening that lower piece of Cruiser just above Times Square so as to provide and alternate route around the narrow ice rink that was Mainstream. Looked like a few more guns were starting up towards the end of the day in that area yesterday, so it looks like someone got the memo. Wish that would have started 10 hours sooner - temps were there.

Some things to keep in mind are pumping/air capacity, placement of guns, etc. It's not as easy as just turning on guns wherever you want to, whenever you want to. I think the effort will be to get the lower portion of Which Way done down to Times Square. I definitely agree, though, that something needs to be done there!


3) Otherwise, most of North skied beautifully yesterday, with the exception of Lookin Good, which was Skiin Bad. Pretty sure it wasn't grooomed, to what benefit I don't know.

Power tilling isn't always the answer. If the snow depth is sketchy, tilling it will ruin the trail, and likely damage the equipment. Also, tilling it sometimes causes it to ski off much more quickly than leaving it alone. Also, have you ever noticed the frozen cat tracks on the trails? Those are a pain, and are as a result of grooming. Of course, I wasn't skiing it today, so maybe I'm off the mark in this particular case. Just remember that power tilling a trail isn't the ultimate fix for every snow surface problem at a ski area.


4) The aforementioned efforts on Spillsville are beginning to pay dividends with the opening of that trail yesterday. Looks like the grassy Birdland and the upper part of Bravo have been opened to the public today. I like it. The more options, the better, even if coverage is sketchball.

Yup!


5) What's next? Got to think Hotshot/Waterfall gets hit once Pushover is done. Then probably Glade or Birdland or Snowball/Spring Fling. My money would be on the latter combo. And at North? Northway then Which Way then Cliffs me thinks. Sorry for those GMVS guys - Inverness might take a while - it's too damn big to make sense to target early.

Yup!

Just my .02

[Tin Woodsman]

I think you mean Bravo. But I agree. Definitely a big help.

Didn't see Bravo, so if they ski packed that as well, kudos. Did see Black Diamond, and though it obviously needs a lot more snow, this effort will help when it comes.



Some things to keep in mind are pumping/air capacity, placement of guns, etc. It's not as easy as just turning on guns wherever you want to, whenever you want to. I think the effort will be to get the lower portion of Which Way done down to Times Square. I definitely agree, though, that something needs to be done there!

I get that, which is why I was confused when a few more guns were turned on at the end of the day on that portion of lower Cruiser near Times Sq when it didn't appear that any other guns had been turned off to compensate. That section was downright dangerous and scary. It should be near the top of the list for remedying in the short-term.



Power tilling isn't always the answer. If the snow depth is sketchy, tilling it will ruin the trail, and likely damage the equipment. Also, tilling it sometimes causes it to ski off much more quickly than leaving it alone. Also, have you ever noticed the frozen cat tracks on the trails? Those are a pain, and are as a result of grooming. Of course, I wasn't skiing it today, so maybe I'm off the mark in this particular case. Just remember that power tilling a trail isn't the ultimate fix for every snow surface problem at a ski area.

I don't think snow depth was the issue on Lookin Good. They had made a good amount of snow on it and it had great coverage/depth. The issue was that the surface was re-frozen crud. I'm not sure why Lookin Good should have received any different treatment than Rim Run or Elbow, which were both skiing beautifully until the end of the day.

[BushMogulMaster]

Makes sense. Like I said, I wasn't there today, so I can't make an informed judgment :)

[Lostone]

1) You shoulda seen Looking Good today. It really was looking good! :) The corrective action seems to have been to groom it.

B) Cruiser and Main Street? Too many people on a too icy trail. On the good side they're working on it. Guns on Cruser and hitting the lower area of Main Street. They just have to overpower the effect of too many people coming down them.

III) The top of the mountain was skiing really well. Bravo was nice, early. The bail out onto Exterminator... :shock: Not so much. :cry:

My second run was Bravo to Exterminator to Cruiser to Main Street. By the time I got onto Northridge (How nice to see Northridge open! ) I couldn't believe how easy Bravo had been. :roll: :wink:

[Tin Woodsman]

One more thing I forgot to mention.

X-Mas day, they had one poor kid in the Glen House serving the many folks who showed up. I know it's tough to find people who will work that day, but that really put the kid in a tough position with the guests. He was pretty much overwhelmed trying to deal with the cash register, grill, and soup/hot food station all by himself, causing a long line even during off-peak periods. And that was before he ran out of hot dogs, chili, and clam chowder before 1:30.

[castlerock]

There have been many discussions on the need for cold temps and the need for compressor capacity. Have we been running dry? (thus limiting snow output)

[Tin Woodsman]

There have been many discussions on the need for cold temps and the need for compressor capacity. Have we been running dry? (thus limiting snow output)

given the marginal temps, I doubt they've been running dry. My rudimentary understanding is that when it's warmer, you max out on compressed air as you are trying harder to atomize the flow of water - hence the leased diesel compressors.

[Strat]

New openings today:
Pushover > Lower Pushover, and two of the three options from the end, left to Village Chair, including Sugarbush Forest and Sugarbush Run, and right to Overshot and Lower Hot Shot... well actually Overshot isn't marked on the trail report but I don't see how you can get from Lower Pushover to Lower Hot Shot without some slogging through the woods otherwise...

Lower Paradise... interesting choice. I guess it's been holding snow well, but this is probably aided by the fact that getting there involves a hairy grass and dirt fest on Spillsville, so traffic should stay low...

Allyn's Traverse rounds it out for the day... shouldn't have a huge impact... people will now be able to get from the bottom of Upper Jester to Lower Jester/Domino Chute/Downspout more quickly, but with the opening of Gatehouse I think we'll see a HUGE reduction in crowding on this upper Super Bravo pod... God I hope so....

[tymoguls]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but it's close enough ...

I was at ME yesterday and noticed the skier shuttle from the parking lot was missing in action. Not a big deal, but the hike up from the lot loaded with equipment did sour my son's mood a bit. I eventually took pity and took care of his boot bag for him, leaving him with just his skis. Was this a one time deal do to an equipment/staffing problem? Or, is this a regular ocurrance.

His mood was completely trashed when I mistakenly chose cruiser as our first run of the day at about 10:30. I saw that Northridge was open and wanted to head straight over. Between the noise of the guns, the overhwelming crowd, sections of barely edgable ice and a couple of hard falls, he declared he had had enough after one run. If only we had gone up the summit chair intead. I hear that was much better. At least the lobster bisque bread boal cheered him up a bit. It was really disappointing because he skied (sp?) the bumps really well and I was looking forward to some more bump runs with him.

I've never skied (sp?) in crowds the like of which we encountered on cruiser. I did not feel like I could make even short predicatble turns without looking uphill first. I hung just behind my son just to create a small amount of space for him. Under such conditions, I would urge management to limit loading to every other chair. I'd rather wait in line a few minutes than ski in a crowd.

I won't be able to make it up today. Hopefully my in-laws won't be offended if I take a day or two over the weekend.

[Tin Woodsman]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but it's close enough ...

I was at ME yesterday and noticed the skier shuttle from the parking lot was missing in action. Not a big deal, but the hike up from the lot loaded with equipment did sour my son's mood a bit. I eventually took pity and took care of his boot bag for him, leaving him with just his skis. Was this a one time deal do to an equipment/staffing problem? Or, is this a regular ocurrance.


Not sure how often that happens, but one thing I thought of when I was there the other day was that it would be a worthwhile investment for SB to construct a wooden stairway between the top few levels of the parking lot. You've got one from the handicapped/special parking area to the temporary unloading area up top. Why not add one for people trekking from further down? The walk up the roadways can be muddy, difficult, and dangerous with traffic. A walkway/stariway built to connect the middle of those lots would not only be functionally usefull, but a lot more asthaethically pleasing as well.

[freeheel_skier]

1) You shoulda seen Looking Good today. It really was looking good! :) The corrective action seems to have been to groom it.

Ditto. I skied it several times. Conditions @ ME were much better today than earlier in the week. :D

[random_ski_guy]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but it's close enough ...

I was at ME yesterday and noticed the skier shuttle from the parking lot was missing in action. Not a big deal, but the hike up from the lot loaded with equipment did sour my son's mood a bit. I eventually took pity and took care of his boot bag for him, leaving him with just his skis. Was this a one time deal do to an equipment/staffing problem? Or, is this a regular ocurrance.


Not sure how often that happens, but one thing I thought of when I was there the other day was that it would be a worthwhile investment for SB to construct a wooden stairway between the top few levels of the parking lot. You've got one from the handicapped/special parking area to the temporary unloading area up top. Why not add one for people trekking from further down? The walk up the roadways can be muddy, difficult, and dangerous with traffic. A walkway/stariway built to connect the middle of those lots would not only be functionally usefull, but a lot more asthaethically pleasing as well.

Boy, we really know how to spend money. We should all be in congress doling out earmarks. :wink: Tin, its a very nice idea, but highly unlikely to happen anytime soon given all the other priorities. Perhaps a staircase for the first two parking wrungs (perhaps that is all you were thinking off) could be done, but after that I'd rather have more snow guns....

[othripper]

Hmmmm,

Back in the day, with the kids, I would park up top at North, unload kids and gear, then move the car down to a parking spot, and then walk up to the lodge.

Mike

[freeheel_skier]

How about a parking lot lift like they have @ the Canyons :lol:

[Lostone]

Northridge was open and wanted to head straight over. Between the noise of the guns, the overhwelming crowd, sections of barely edgable ice and a couple of hard falls, he declared he had had enough after one run. If only we had gone up the summit chair intead. I hear that was much better.

You're not going to like hearing (reading?) this but, yes, it was much better on the Summit lift, yesterday. Skiing was quite good. And Cruiser and Main Street were 237% better, today. They were especially good early, but were still holding up much better than early yesterday, at around 1:00, when I bailed, today.

Still way to many people on the trail, but that is because instead of having Tumbler, Cliffs, Hammerhead, Encore, Which Way, Cruiser, and North Star to get to Northridge, we had Cruiser.

But the surface was much better, today, and they were still blasting the guns. They opened the bottom part of Main Street, and were working Lower Cruiser with guns. That will take a lot more of the traffic away. Let's hope we get something out of the forecasted snow, for tomorrow. We are close on some of the other lower trails, There is just not enough to handle the crowds, yet.

But did anyone check out the Summit today? The skiing was excellent, and the view...? She was showing herself off, today! 8)

[tymoguls]

I'm glad to hear it. I'll be out with both kids tomorrow. Another good night for snow making with an additional 1-3 of natural should make for a great day.

[Lostone]

And you do know that Pushover opened, today, don't you? Nice to take a few on easier terrain, to get their confidence back. 8)

[tymoguls]

Thanks for the tip. I agree with your approach. But our passes are ME only. Three all mountain passes would add up to a good chunk of change.

[Strat]

My latest mountain ops question: Why is Cruiser the only way down from GMX? The horror stories from yesterday and the preceding days have already been shared... Which Way and North Star both have snowmaking, and getting one of them open would take a lot of pressure off of the icy, crowded Cruiser... obviously since the crowds are now dwindling this won't be such a big problem, but still...

[BushMogulMaster]

My latest mountain ops question: Why is Cruiser the only way down from GMX? The horror stories from yesterday and the preceding days have already been shared... Which Way and North Star both have snowmaking, and getting one of them open would take a lot of pressure off of the icy, crowded Cruiser... obviously since the crowds are now dwindling this won't be such a big problem, but still...

Be patient, you must, Strat :wink: .

Guns are on Northstar all night tonight. Within a day or two, it will be open. The snowmaking horsepower was being focused on Cruiser, Mainstream, Straight Shot, and the lower sections of Which Way and Cruiser (near base of NRX). I agree that it was a mess having everyone and his brother on Cruiser, but you've gotta do what you've gotta do.

[Strat]

My latest mountain ops question: Why is Cruiser the only way down from GMX? The horror stories from yesterday and the preceding days have already been shared... Which Way and North Star both have snowmaking, and getting one of them open would take a lot of pressure off of the icy, crowded Cruiser... obviously since the crowds are now dwindling this won't be such a big problem, but still...

Be patient, you must, Strat :wink: .

Guns are on Northstar all night tonight. Within a day or two, it will be open. The snowmaking horsepower was being focused on Cruiser, Mainstream, Straight Shot, and the lower sections of Which Way and Cruiser (near base of NRX). I agree that it was a mess having everyone and his brother on Cruiser, but you've gotta do what you've gotta do.
Finally, now that Christmas break is almost over... well better late then never. Thanks for the update.

[sugarboarder]

I guess \"snowmaking horsepower\" is one of the problems we still face here. Other mountains are able to pump WAY more snow in WAY less time and cover more ground than we can. It\'s too bad we have that limitation, especially this year.

[Strat]

I guess \"snowmaking horsepower\" is one of the problems we still face here. Other mountains are able to pump WAY more snow in WAY less time and cover more ground than we can. It\'s too bad we have that limitation, especially this year.
Haven't we spent multiple topics disproving this notion?

[sugarboarder]

Who\'s \"we\" white man? :-)

You can prove or disprove, or disapprove for that matter, but it is a fact. I love the \'bush - it\'s been my home mountain for 18 years, but it can\'t compare to the big boys when it comes to snowmaking...and I WISH that wasn\'t the case.

[Mike451]

I wonder what they could do if they just had a few more guns at M/E, It seems like alot of the horses get tied up covering areas like the Glen House Flats, Times Square, and the very botom of strait shot where cracker jack merges in and everything gets rediculosy wide. I think a short term solution would be to have a couple of SNS Viking Sleds that have their own compressors, and have a very wide throw, and could cover these areas more effectively, especially in marginal temps. Adding a few of these, and another pump to make the use of low E guns possible I think, would really make a huge impact on the snowmaking at Mt Ellen, and could lead to the ability to just get that extra bit of terrain open, a little bit sooner, and for holiday weekens were you are gettign a ton of buisness, that is more important that it usualy is.

[othripper]

This is very anecdotal, but back in the godd old days, when Blaise ran the mountain, they could open the summit lift at North after about 3 days of snowmaking. Water was never an issue there. Seems to take longer today.

But who knows? Win does really seem to be posting the truth here.

[Strat]

This is very anecdotal, but back in the godd old days, when Blaise ran the mountain, they could open the summit lift at North after about 3 days of snowmaking. Water was never an issue there. Seems to take longer today.

But who knows? Win does really seem to be posting the truth here.
Probably just remembering years with good temps... the early season weather this year was just downright awful for snowmaking or natural snow...

[Mike451]

They could of course open with less snow, and thinner cover, which provided a beat up pair of skis (which I don't have yet) I would have no problem with. I think they have been airing a bit on the side of opening with beter cover, versus opening ASAP.

[BushMogulMaster]

This is very anecdotal, but back in the godd old days, when Blaise ran the mountain, they could open the summit lift at North after about 3 days of snowmaking. Water was never an issue there. Seems to take longer today.

But who knows? Win does really seem to be posting the truth here.
Probably just remembering years with good temps... the early season weather this year was just downright awful for snowmaking or natural snow...

Definitely. ME has the capacity to open the summit in 3 days with no trouble, but that would be assuming temps 15 or below, and this year, they were trying to make snow at upwards of 30 degrees just to get opened.


I think a short term solution would be to have a couple of SNS Viking Sleds that have their own compressors, and have a very wide throw, and could cover these areas more effectively, especially in marginal temps. Adding a few of these, and another pump to make the use of low E guns possible I think, would really make a huge impact on the snowmaking at Mt Ellen, and could lead to the ability to just get that extra bit of terrain open, a little bit sooner, and for holiday weekens were you are gettign a ton of buisness, that is more important that it usualy is.

Hmm.. I'm not so sure. As simple as this sounds, on-board compressor fan guns are VERY expensive ($15,000+ each when new), and relatively difficult to place and move around. They also make significantly less snow than a decent air/water gun... by about 100 GPM in some cases. Although they look impressive when they are running, they're not that powerful (aside from the Hedco World Machine from forever ago that could shoot 750 gpm!). Also, surprising as it may be, fan guns do not do as well in marginal temps as air/water guns. Ratnik, Omichron, HKD, and SR air/water guns all perform better in marginal conditions.

I'm not saying this wouldn't help... just that it wouldn't really be any better than adding another compressor, another pump, and a few more beastly Ratnik Snow Giant II+IIs or Vs (which, if I recall correctly, aren't more than $2,500 each new). They actually can throw pretty impressive distances, and can operate at up to 35+ degree temps, and convert up to 270 GPM at temps below 10 degrees.

[othripper]

Mike is right, (I was going to edit my post), but as I think about it, they used to open the top with much worse conditions than they do now.....

[Mike451]

This seems to be what Sugarbush is doing right now, critical terrain that will get alot of use, will only be opened when it has decent cover, yet they have no problem opening non critical trails when they become skiable, or even yet durring the spring, stuff gets left open that is not entierly skiable. Two instances of this, I skiied the runout at the end of march of last year, and had to walk over about a 10' bare spot. I skiied birch run, and had to navigate through a foot wide maze down the final pitch. And agiain, this season, the tuesday after thanks giving, Upper Rim Run was skiable with about a 5' wide swatch down the very left of the trail on the top pitch. The top of eblow, was a maze, of dirt and snow. But there were some sweet corn bumps to be had, and if you were on Rock Skis, it was worth it.


When ME reopened this season, they opened a day prior to the public opening for ASRA, and if there was enough snow for them, I think there was enough for any decent skier.

It seems like, they are really into opening with good enough conditions, that people woudn't complain about thin cover on the one trail there is to be skied, but personaly, I really don't mind, as that's what rock skis are for.


And again back to sneaxmaking......

Why can't they just add at least one aditional pump, and compressor at MT Ellen, even just have hookups for rentals, like at L/P to bring in more capaicity to open terrain faster early on. Yes, the pond capacity is limited, but if you are going to convert a certain ammount of gallons of water into snow, you might as well do it in a given period of which it is actualy efficient, which would save money, and would allow for a greater net ammount of snow to be made throught the season. Running the guns when the temps suck is just a waste of money and energy, So having more capicity, would allow more snow to be made, durring the cold windows which are short and sparce early on. Just really being able to crank, that one 5 degree night, and produce some serious volume, is the time to make snow, and if you have such a window, it would make sense to really have the system to use it for all its worth.

[Tin Woodsman]

Hmmmm,

Back in the day, with the kids, I would park up top at North, unload kids and gear, then move the car down to a parking spot, and then walk up to the lodge.

Mike

That's what I do, but it would be great to not have to walk up the road when I do. When it's snowing or icy, that's not exactly a safe place to be given the incline of that road. Just a simple wooden stairway running up the middle of the hills separating the first 2-3 parking bays is what I'm talking about. Like I said, there's already one just like what I'm proposing between the drop off lot and the handicapped lot.

[Tin Woodsman]

I guess \"snowmaking horsepower\" is one of the problems we still face here. Other mountains are able to pump WAY more snow in WAY less time and cover more ground than we can. It\'s too bad we have that limitation, especially this year.
Haven't we spent multiple topics disproving this notion?

I don't think we have. We might have disproved the notion that SB made less snow last year than in years past (though IMHO, the jury is out on this year) but the question of SBs overall firepower relative to other top tier area resorts like Stowe, K-Mart, Okemo, and Jay has yet to be discussed in full. With the possible exception of Jay Peak, I think SB will come up wanting in that comparison. If/when Clay Brook sells out and they can return to non-real estate priorities, this should be the #1 priority on the list.

[random_ski_guy]

I guess \"snowmaking horsepower\" is one of the problems we still face here. Other mountains are able to pump WAY more snow in WAY less time and cover more ground than we can. It\'s too bad we have that limitation, especially this year.
Haven't we spent multiple topics disproving this notion?

I don't think we have. We might have disproved the notion that SB made less snow last year than in years past (though IMHO, the jury is out on this year) but the question of SBs overall firepower relative to other top tier area resorts like Stowe, K-Mart, Okemo, and Jay has yet to be discussed in full. With the possible exception of Jay Peak, I think SB will come up wanting in that comparison. If/when Clay Brook sells out and they can return to non-real estate priorities, this should be the #1 priority on the list.

Return Claybrook profits to increase snowmaking firepower - Amen Brother! :D

[win]

I am replying after some time to all these comments, so I probablly won't hit all the points. One thing that Hardy and Mike wing are doing with my full approval is concentrating and trying to put down quality snowmaking in a priority order. Temperatures affect not only the quality of what can be made but also the volume of the water that can be pumped. Just to give you one example from last week, one day we were able to put out 2,000 gallons a minute and the next day 3,000 a minute with the same guns running. Some other mountains will spread snow out on more trails, to just open, but we have chosen not to do that, and I have had many people over the past two weeks who have skied here and elsewhere comment on the better quality of the product here.

ME and LP are not only separate systems, but they also have different permit conditions. Our water source at LP because of the Mad River Valley and our reservoir has much more water capacity than ME. Our system there is a grandfathered one which under today's guidelines would be more challenging to get and impossible to expand from the existing sources.

There is no question that we would love to have more capacity, but that it not as easy as it may seem to some. Overall, I think the Mountain team did a very good job in a very challenging environment.

As you know we attempt to open trails aggressively if we think they are safe and that is what you saw this past week after the snowfall when we opened Spillville, Ripcord, Paradise, Domino, The Mall, Twist, etc. Clearly these are for advanced skiers only, but they got a lot of traffic and made a lot of people happy - including me.

Snowmaking is a very technical subject and challenging to answer totally in a forum. It there is the interest, I would be happy to have an apres ski discussion over a beer with anyone who would really like to dig into this in further depth.

[castlerock]

ME and LP are not only separate systems, but they also have different permit conditions. Our water source at LP because of the Mad River Valley and our reservoir has much more water capacity than ME. Our system there is a grandfathered one which under today's guidelines would be more challenging to get and impossible to expand from the existing sources.

I'm interested in the water situation. Is that what the real limit is.? I understand that you've (we've, as we are all in this together, to varying degrees!) invested in leased compressors. (So that part of the equation is "elastic").

We know that the electricity supply can become economically onerous when it gets really cold.

Thinking of that, is there an "efficiency point" for Snowmaking? Is it "the colder, the better" or does that assume that the other resources are unlimited?

So in the end, is the water resource the one that is the true limit? And if that is the case, does it become the independent variable in the snowmaking efficiency calculation?

[Treeskier]

I skied from 12/22 - 1/1 in all of the varied weather mother nature through at us. Knowing what the MT can produce (using all of the compressors) I was very impressed and happy with what the MT did! Not only did they blow as best a product that hour's tempature could produce but they ran the guns when ever the tempature was cold enough (even if it ment in publics faces)

Every day there was something for everyone to play on. For us experts they managed to open something fun for us...EVERY DAY. We where the first to open natural trails!!!!!!! Hats off. (other MTs would not have opened them becouse they feel their clients would have thought it was to rocky....but we like...no love to ski natural snow even if it is a little thin)

Great job!! Thanks.

PS Mother nature helped too....got 2nd chair up Heaven's Gate on Saturday and was one of the first down Paridice....KNEE DEEP! Our first powder day of the 2006-2007 season!

[Tin Woodsman]

I am replying after some time to all these comments, so I probablly won't hit all the points. One thing that Hardy and Mike wing are doing with my full approval is concentrating and trying to put down quality snowmaking in a priority order. Temperatures affect not only the quality of what can be made but also the volume of the water that can be pumped. Just to give you one example from last week, one day we were able to put out 2,000 gallons a minute and the next day 3,000 a minute with the same guns running. Some other mountains will spread snow out on more trails, to just open, but we have chosen not to do that, and I have had many people over the past two weeks who have skied here and elsewhere comment on the better quality of the product here.

I agree this is the right approach, but in certain situations it might make sense to adjust the strategy. For example, until the recent cold weather and snow, I would argue that it would be much better to spend a night creating another way around the Mainstream bottleneck into Times Sq than it would be to add a few more inches of base to Rim Run. That area was really bad until the latter half of the holiday week and was quite dangerous, IMO.



ME and LP are not only separate systems, but they also have different permit conditions. Our water source at LP because of the Mad River Valley and our reservoir has much more water capacity than ME. Our system there is a grandfathered one which under today's guidelines would be more challenging to get and impossible to expand from the existing sources.

There is no question that we would love to have more capacity, but that it not as easy as it may seem to some. Overall, I think the Mountain team did a very good job in a very challenging environment.
When I talk about investing back into snowmaking, I am specifically referring to the completing the permitted interconnection of the two separate systems at the resorts as ASC had planned and then supplementing that with more compressor firepower as needed. Obviously this would cost a fair bit, so I hope no one gets the idea that this is some sort of low-hanging fruit. Regardless, this really should be near the top of the priority list once Clay Brook sales are put to bed. For all the huffing and puffing about the lift system etc... here, I'd be surprised if most people don't agree that this is the most pressing on-mountain need.



As you know we attempt to open trails aggressively if we think they are safe and that is what you saw this past week after the snowfall when we opened Spillville, Ripcord, Paradise, Domino, The Mall, Twist, etc. Clearly these are for advanced skiers only, but they got a lot of traffic and made a lot of people happy - including me.

Love that policy - don't change a thing!



Snowmaking is a very technical subject and challenging to answer totally in a forum. It there is the interest, I would be happy to have an apres ski discussion over a beer with anyone who would really like to dig into this in further depth.

But then people like me couldn't sit around in our internet arm chairs and wax poetic about these things in a completely uninformed and idealistic manner! And what fun would that be?

[freeheel_skier]

PS Mother nature helped too....got 2nd chair up Heaven's Gate on Saturday and was one of the first down Paridice....KNEE DEEP! Our first powder day of the 2006-2007 season!

I thought I got second chair on HG :oops: :lol: JK

Freshies were to be had back in October :shock: ....I know the lifts weren't running back then. But I thought the ski season started when the trails have snow on them? :?

[Treeskier]

I suggest it was deeper Saturday then in Oct.. Anything under 2' is just snow not powder turns. Over 2 feet the resistance gives you a whole differant ski experience.

[smootharc]

....I was on it, too ! But maybe I was just lost in space. Certainly lost something crucial on Paradise just a few moments later, including almost my mind !

[ahm]

This I would love to hear, in fact I'll buy the beers. I'd love nothing more than to participate in this discussion. So, just name the place Win.

Snowmaking is a mixture of art and science. Since the "art" part is a bit more difficult to control, the "science" part becomes the obvious lever to adjust to ensure that the highest quality product is produced in the most efficient and cost effect way--the standard "issue" for all manufacturing facilities. Problem is, most ski areas don't have an engineering group on staff to optimize the snowmaking system like a typical large scale manufacturer does--but a ski area "makes" 1000s of metric tons of "product" each season. By taking a hard look at your "manufacturing" practices, using real data (utilities utilization trend charts (electrical/water), T & RH trend charts, statistical sampling of base depths, etc) I think you could go a long way in making the system "spin like a top". When you get right down to it, snowmaking is "crystal" manufacturing. Problem is, you have "numerous manufacturing facilities" (each gun is in reality its own "crystalizer") opperating differently due to location, wind, and differences in real time water flow. This is why I feel there are some ways to better understand and then optimize the snowmaking system.....................

[castlerock]

When should it be?

[ahm]

The unofficial one can be at the Tav this coming Friday around 6 pm for anyone who skis on Friday. There is often a lot of arm chair discussion and some engineering speak on snow making during that time period, unless it dumps and then it is all good.
The official can be in the CR pub any of the next Saturdays. I'd love to have it this Sat, that way SB staff is free on the busy MLK weekend. I can do Sunday as well, but my wife will need the giants game on this Sun in the CR pub (it is the 4:30 game).

[sugarboarder]

This I would love to hear, in fact I'll buy the beers. I'd love nothing more than to participate in this discussion. So, just name the place Win.

Snowmaking is a mixture of art and science. Since the "art" part is a bit more difficult to control, the "science" part becomes the obvious lever to adjust to ensure that the highest quality product is produced in the most efficient and cost effect way--the standard "issue" for all manufacturing facilities. Problem is, most ski areas don't have an engineering group on staff to optimize the snowmaking system like a typical large scale manufacturer does--but a ski area "makes" 1000s of metric tons of "product" each season. By taking a hard look at your "manufacturing" practices, using real data (utilities utilization trend charts (electrical/water), T & RH trend charts, statistical sampling of base depths, etc) I think you could go a long way in making the system "spin like a top". When you get right down to it, snowmaking is "crystal" manufacturing. Problem is, you have "numerous manufacturing facilities" (each gun is in reality its own "crystalizer") opperating differently due to location, wind, and differences in real time water flow. This is why I feel there are some ways to better understand and then optimize the snowmaking system.....................

Somebody hire this person!!! Their comments on Timbers operation in that thread are just as on target and insightful.
A dose of reality, backed up with facts...no more double-talk and damage control after the fact.

[random_ski_guy]

he sounds expensive. :wink:

[sugarboarder]

he sounds expensive. :wink:

It depends...and I am not even remotely in a position to make this call...but sometimes it is expensive NOT to take what appears to be an expensive step. For example, buliding ClayBrook. :)

[Tin Woodsman]

Can someone enlighten me as to what's going on with snowmaking? The web page indicates that the snowmaking footprint hasn't changed in like 72 hours. an unending stream of manmade has apparently been hitting:

Elbow
Lower Elbow
Northstar
Cruiser
Straight Shot
Jester
Lower Jester
Allyn's Traverse
Domino Chute
Lower Downspout

I understand that base depths needed to be rebuilt on core trails, but that's all ya got? I suspect that this list doesn't accurately reflect the reality on the ground. With the temps we've seen in the last 36 hours, you'd be able to produce an ass-load of snow, assuming of course that GMP doesn't shut you down. When do we see Snowball/Spring Fling, Hot Shot/Waterfall, Which Way, Cliffs, Inverness, Sleeper, etc..? The world watches and waits....

[ahm]

If snowmaking has continued on these runs for the period of time that they have been listed as undergoing snowmaking, then base depths should be in pretty good shape for these trails. That said, this should allow the movement of the guns to other areas, where it has been stated that the entire spring fling pod could be blown in in three days. So, glad to see that all that snow has been put in place on those core trails and looking forward to moving the effort to other trails, especially with some of the snow that has fallen recently.

[notorious]

It's not just a question of whether and where snow is being made, but also a matter of getting out the info. They certainly need to get more info about weekend trail/lift counts onto website. People are/have made their weekend decisions about whether to come up from the flats. I have potentially 20 friends (not all staying w me)coming up for MLK weekend but at least 5 believe the website more than me, despite my having forwarded BushMogulMasters snow measurement photos. They point to trail counts. Many of them would be lessons and rentals as well as passes and food. This is a big weekend, normally, but assumptions about lack of cover caused by months of little snow are influencing those w/o access to this site.

[smootharc]

at least 5 friends believe the website more than me, despite my having forwarded BushMogulMasters snow measurement photos.

....by Ski Yogi Master Knee Deepivata "A fool and his powder are soon parted". :lol:

[BushMogulMaster]

Can someone enlighten me as to what's going on with snowmaking? The web page indicates that the snowmaking footprint hasn't changed in like 72 hours. an unending stream of manmade has apparently been hitting:

Elbow
Lower Elbow
Northstar
Cruiser
Straight Shot
Jester
Lower Jester
Allyn's Traverse
Domino Chute
Lower Downspout

I understand that base depths needed to be rebuilt on core trails, but that's all ya got? I suspect that this list doesn't accurately reflect the reality on the ground. With the temps we've seen in the last 36 hours, you'd be able to produce an ass-load of snow, assuming of course that GMP doesn't shut you down. When do we see Snowball/Spring Fling, Hot Shot/Waterfall, Which Way, Cliffs, Inverness, Sleeper, etc..? The world watches and waits....

The ME trails are accurate. They've been blowing the crap out of them, and after last night, depths are great. I think the next plan will be Which Way, Cliffs, Crackerjack, and some effort starting on Inverness. I can't speak for LP... I just don't know.


It's not just a question of whether and where snow is being made, but also a matter of getting out the info. They certainly need to get more info about weekend trail/lift counts onto website. People are/have made their weekend decisions about whether to come up from the flats. I have potentially 20 friends (not all staying w me)coming up for MLK weekend but at least 5 believe the website more than me, despite my having forwarded BushMogulMasters snow measurement photos. They point to trail counts. Many of them would be lessons and rentals as well as passes and food. This is a big weekend, normally, but assumptions about lack of cover caused by months of little snow are influencing those w/o access to this site.

The website is definitely not perfect! I think the reason they aren't pulling ropes on many natural trails is due to the fact that there is no heavy base under the new light, fluffy snow. The powder we just got would ski right off down to the grass, as can be seen on Lower Exterminator and the headwall on Bravo. Another few inches and we should be good to go with some more natural trails. Had we not had the heat/rain the other day, I think SB would be nearly 100% open now. However, even though the terrain is still relatively limited, the skiing is fantastic. Notorious... you're welcome to share my comments with your friends. If they don't believe us both, then they may as well ski somewhere else :wink: .

[Tin Woodsman]

It's not just a question of whether and where snow is being made, but also a matter of getting out the info. They certainly need to get more info about weekend trail/lift counts onto website. People are/have made their weekend decisions about whether to come up from the flats. I have potentially 20 friends (not all staying w me)coming up for MLK weekend but at least 5 believe the website more than me, despite my having forwarded BushMogulMasters snow measurement photos. They point to trail counts. Many of them would be lessons and rentals as well as passes and food. This is a big weekend, normally, but assumptions about lack of cover caused by months of little snow are influencing those w/o access to this site.

Agreed, though I'm happy to see that the website reported a robust 15" the last two days. I was expecting a half-assed figure there. I've got 4-5 friends coming up who are SB first-timers. It would be great to be able to show them the variety of terrain that SB is famous for. We're going to have cold weather for at least the next two weeks - leave the damn core trails alone for the moment and get to trail count expansion pronto! You'll be ablr to build base depths after the holiday weekend as the coldest air of the season arrives. Going from a 24" base to a 36" base on Cruiser is a complete and total waste of money at this hour. :evil:

[Lostone]

Jester
Lower Jester
Allyn's Traverse
Domino Chute
Lower Downspout

Some of the info on South:

Jester, no.

Lower Jester, yes, but on the bottom stretch, adjoining Lower Downspout, which is also a yes.

Domino Chute, no.

Allyn's Traverse, not sure, as I didn't go that way.

Add Pushover, Gondolier, Easy Rider, First Time, and the assorted guns around the whole base area. Gotta build back that beginner terrain! 8)

I didn't look at the website, today, so not sure what they said, when. But the ones where I said no, may have had snowmaking last night, before grooming.

[Lostone]

Going from a 24" base to a 36" base on Cruiser is a complete and total waste of money at this hour. :evil:

If you read reviews, here, in the last few days, you'll realize Cruiser really needed recovering. That is not to build its depth, but to recover from rain and warm, then cold. I have spoken to nobody who said it didn't need a lot of recovery.

It skied great, yesterday. Have you heard that for a while? And it was more from the guns than the natural. :wink:

[ahm]

Lostone: hope the guns are cranking. A bit of an interesting note from a friend with a fantastic view of the area from Roxbury gap who claimed no guns were running during the day. So, like TW said, enough snow on the core trails, and time to move, move, move those guns to a new, new location. And to the bush mogul master and the claims of huge base depths on the ME trails......................................he knows all, so I am sure I could just bury my lifelink probe right down to that 8' mark..............................right ?????

[Lostone]

A bit of an interesting note from a friend with a fantastic view of the area from Roxbury gap who claimed no guns were running during the day.

I was on the mountain. All due respect to your friend, my view was a little better. :roll:

What I said was running, was running.

[freeheel_skier]

guns are cranking... :D lost power 10min ago.....very windy! :shock:

[BushMogulMaster]

Lostone: hope the guns are cranking. A bit of an interesting note from a friend with a fantastic view of the area from Roxbury gap who claimed no guns were running during the day. So, like TW said, enough snow on the core trails, and time to move, move, move those guns to a new, new location. And to the bush mogul master and the claims of huge base depths on the ME trails......................................he knows all, so I am sure I could just bury my lifelink probe right down to that 8' mark..............................right ?????

I believe I said depths are "great" not "huge." There's a big difference.