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View Full Version : Lincoln Peak snowmaking re: Claybrook



arc1
11-29-2006, 12:25 PM
I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?

Mike_451
11-29-2006, 12:31 PM
The capaicity at south seems to be decent, and from what I hear combined with North maxes out pumping capicity, and that from what I hear, draws all it can from the electrical grid.

It makes more sense to me to add more capicity to Glen Ellen, as first to open and last to close.

ski_resort_observer
11-29-2006, 01:35 PM
draws all it can from the electrical grid.


I think alot of people are unaware of this.....it is a problem for the Bush. One of the many issues that SV has to deal with that I think people don't consider cause they don't know about them. Some resorts still use diesel engines as you might expect they have to be phased out due to carbon monoxide discharge.

These are problems that iMHO a few wind turbines could help with but trying to do that here in Vermont would be very dificult to do, probably closer to impossible but I am hopeful that will change down the road.

Tin Woodsman
11-29-2006, 01:40 PM
I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?

From what I recall, Win stated that they blew more snow last year than any year in their history. Of course, much of that was by necessity, but the new low energy guns on Steins and Ripcord certainly helped. Does that mean they shouldn't try to enhance the system? Of course not. I'd love to see some more capacity at North in order to open earlier and close later. Overall, it does seem that the system as a whole isn't as robust as some of the peers to the south, though I'd put it up against anything north of Rt. 4. Maxing out the elecrtical grid is a problem, but can be alleviated by more low energy guns to replace older, inefficient guns. Also, last year there was only so much time to blow snow given the marginal temps for much of the winter.


Regardless, going back to your main point about snowmaking last year - you're simply off base. The facts don't support your claim, despite any anecdotal observations you may have made.

win
11-29-2006, 02:05 PM
We have snowmaking on about 70% of the trails and where we don't (ie Castlerock, Twist, Moonshine, The Mall, Black Diamond, Hammerhead, etc.) we never would. Last year we made at least 20% more than the prior year. The problem was we made it, lost it, made it, lost it. It is all about the temperatures. I was actually very pleased with both the quantity and the quality of what we were able to make given the vicissitudes of Mother Nature.

Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen are separate system, so we will go all out at both whenever we need to and can. We do have electrical limitations from GMP at Lincoln Peak so we could not add another electric compressor, but by adding the more efficient nozzles that we did last year, we can do more with less and that proved itself out last year. One option is to run air and water pipes across Slidebrook which can move air and water back and forth as needed. This was permitted by ASC. It is a significant capital expenditure and might require some permit modifications, but it is one option which we will are looking at. Right now alternative energy is quite expensive, and I do not see it as a short term option. We did have some rented diesel compressors in past years which we only used part time. However, the nozzles we purchased last year allowed us to get rid of them without sacrificing production capacity, and it allowed us not to use this polluting fuel, which is important for all of us. The snowmaking system at Mount Ellen is a grandfathered one, and we can not add to it until we are able to create a reservoir like we have next to the Mad River for Lincoln Peak or we have an alternative source of water such as piping water from South. That said, our snowmaking capacity is good, we continue to upgrade the system each year, and the quality of team is greatly improved which means fewer mistakes, better planning and the right focus.

With respect to one trail at a time, this is not how we do it. Where and how much we make depends on the temperatures and the length of the trails and the needs. Consider the length and the acreage of Jester and Organgrinder which with temperatures we will often be on simultaneously if the temperatures allow. (The lower the temperature, the less energy needed and the more snow made). Some resort "spray and run". This looks good at the start of the day. Our goal is to put down quality and depth. If we had Killington's capacity we could obviously to more. They have a great system that was put in place years ago and benefit from the regulations at that time. To open this year, we could have covered more trails at Mount Ellen, but I think anyone who was on the mountain last weekend appreciated the quality of what was laid down. That was a conscious decision.

Sorry, long winded answer. Needless to say, the real stuff is always the best.

arc1
11-29-2006, 02:12 PM
[quote="Tin Regardless, going back to your main point about snowmaking last year - you're simply off base. The facts don't support your claim, despite any anecdotal observations you may have made.[/quote

Off base? Are you kidding? As a point of reference, I heard that pre Thanksgiving Killington rented 31 generators and had 4 or 5 lifts open throughout the weekend. In the course of last winter I was at several other mtns in VT, all of which made way, way more snow than us.

HowieT2
11-29-2006, 02:36 PM
Off base? Are you kidding? As a point of reference, I heard that pre Thanksgiving Killington rented 31 generators and had 4 or 5 lifts open throughout the weekend. In the course of last winter I was at several other mtns in VT, all of which made way, way more snow than us.

I was at K- mart on friday. They did in fact have 16 trails and 6 lifts running. I'd comment on the quality of the snow but I was too busy dodging traffic in camo.

freeheel_skier
11-29-2006, 02:54 PM
I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?

I think you are off base because you need to read win's statement again. 20% is a huge increase. Yes people will come b/c of increased snowmaking. Killington has the a ginormous snowmaking system. Killington has the perception of having a ton of snow.......It is a quantity vs. quality thing. As for other places in Vermont having way more snow that the Bush.....I beg to differ. You are entitled to your opinion. I had the ME only pass last yr. and took the opportunity to do lots of day trips. Something I haven't done in years. :D I skiied Burke, Jay, Smuggs, Stowe, MRG...all are North of the bush. I noticed no difference in quantity of snow/man made snow. The only exception was Jay and Stowe....I skiied both after a natural snow event. I never considered venturing to K to see what their situation was like.
However, over the course of the winter I had some friends that work at K stay & ski @ my place (ME) and they were quite impressed with the quality/quantity of snow. They were suprised at the coverage. I will say that opinions on this subject will vary. :?

The fact is that Mother Nature never cut Vermont a break. If it snowed...2 days later it rained....then got cold again and everything was boiler plate. THat will not be the case this year! :D

arc1
11-29-2006, 03:17 PM
c1"]I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?[/quote]

I think you are off base because you need to read win's statement again. 20% is a huge increase. Yes people will come b/c of increased snowmaking. Killington has the a ginormous snowmaking system. Killington has the perception of having a ton of snow.......It is a quantity vs. quality thing. As for other places in Vermont having way more snow that the Bush.....I beg to differ. You are entitled to your opinion. I had the ME only pass last yr. and took the opportunity to do lots of day trips. Something I haven't done in years. :D I skiied Burke, Jay, Smuggs, Stowe, MRG...all are North of the bush. I noticed no difference in quantity of snow/man made snow. The only exception was Jay and Stowe....I skiied both after a natural snow event. I never considered venturing to K to see what their situation was like.
However, over the course of the winter I had some friends that work at K stay & ski @ my place (ME) and they were quite impressed with the quality/quantity of snow. They were suprised at the coverage. I will say that opinions on this subject will vary. :?

The fact is that Mother Nature never cut Vermont a break. If it snowed...2 days later it rained....then got cold again and everything was boiler plate. THat will not be the case this year! :D[/quote])


For arguements sake, and since I can't get any work done today anyhow, the 20% increase may or may not be a huge thing. 2 years ago we had a lot more snow, so they didn't make so much. So 20% over whatever that was really isn't a lot.

The mountains I toured last year, not by my choice, , were Stowe, Mt. Snow, Okemo, Stratton, Killington and Whiteface. Very different than your group (which I'd prefer to ski, save Whiteface,Stowe and maybe Kmart on a quiet pow day).

My point, other than the fact that I'd like to see a bunch of rented compressors, is that people considering the big $$$ commitment of Claybrook will want to see a big commitment to making snow if Ullr is stingy.

Actually, I don't even care so much about that. I just want more snow. Maybe this weekend it starts.

freeheel_skier
11-29-2006, 03:32 PM
here is an old topic regarding snowmaking from last year....this should shead some light on what kind of investment SV has put into snowmaking.

http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=136&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45


I believe it is a response from SV from another forum? Correct me if I am wrong.

ski_resort_observer
11-29-2006, 03:33 PM
arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel the way you describe but I am also sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook so I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

freeheel_skier
11-29-2006, 03:36 PM
arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel that way but I am sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook but I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush to opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

Not that this is revelant....

I was suprised to see that Jackson Hole wasn't open yet either.

arc1
11-29-2006, 03:40 PM
arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel the way you describe but I am also sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook so I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

Yes, I do know it's closed. Trust me, I go there only when my son's schedule drags me there, same as Okemo.

ski_resort_observer
11-29-2006, 03:41 PM
arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel that way but I am sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook but I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush to opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

Not that this is revelant....

I was suprised to see that Jackson Hole wasn't open yet either.

For business reasons it has always opened the second Sat in Dec. even if there is 5 feet of snow on the trails. This year they are, however, opening a week early. Alot of folks think it's cause of their permit from the NF but they can amend that anytime they want. JH is in a touchy spot for the next couple of winters without a tram, going to be interested in how that plays out.

Tin Woodsman
11-29-2006, 04:09 PM
1) I don't understand why you'd compare SB to places like Stratton, Okemo, and Mt. Snow. Those places cater to different markets and offer a vastly different product. They receive a lot less natural snow and as a result they require world beating snowmaking systems to stay open and competitive. K-Mart is a different matter entirely, as they have their "niche" as the beat of the east and a pipe from the reservoir nearby. If they were so committed to providing the best product and most snowmaking possible, then why has their season shortened by two months over the last 15-20 years?

2) SB's main competitors are Stowe, Smuggs, Jay and I suppose MRG. Now you can probably throw Burke into the mix as well now that they are well capitalized. Among those places, only Stowe with their recent investments can even touch SB in terms of snowmaking capacity. Even then, as someone who skis both places frequently, I'm not prepared to argue that there is a substantial difference in the quantity or quality of snow they produce up there vs. SB.

3) It seems pretty clear from Win's comments that he realizes that the incremental improvements SV has made in the system thus far will, at some point, require a substantial capital investment to generate a step change in capacity (though not coverage, which is a good thing). While I think it's silly to expect that this year, given the entirely new base area (oh, that little thing?), I would be surprised if we didn't see something in this direction within the next five years. That said, they are admittedly constrained on electricity throughout the system by their supplier - that isn't something that can be easily or quickly remedied. Running a business is about priorities. ASC left the snowmaking system in pretty good shape (relative to what it had been at least) and SV has done a good job making incremental improvements). Right now, the focus is on Claybrook to help guarantee the future of Sugarbush - lift tickets alone are just about a loss leader for most resorts these days. Once that is in place, then move on to the next thing. Snowmaking imprvoements are presumably high on that list.

Abe Froman
11-29-2006, 05:34 PM
I did a day at Okemo in March and the conditions were deplorable.

my lurker .02 :D

Tin Woodsman
11-29-2006, 05:42 PM
I did a day at Okemo in March and the conditions were deplorable.

my lurker .02 :D

Why must the Sausuge King of Chicago lurk? Why God why??!!

Abe Froman
11-29-2006, 05:57 PM
My work. I work all spring, summer, fall so I can take my winters off....I work outdoors and lurk at night.

Mike_451
11-29-2006, 07:21 PM
From what I see with the coverage at Sugarbush is that it all adds up in a sense at least on the core trails to be every bit as much snow as anybody else makes in a given season.

As of (Late March)

Last year, their was a dead consistant base top to bottom on Organginder, Jester, and Upper Downspout (lower was good, but thin in a few spots)

The traverse, over to Spring Fling was also good, and Stiens and Ripcord had plenty of snow on them.

The one area where the coverege was so so, was Gatehouse, as the the snow allready had mud tilled up into it by the end of March.

Birch Run up on North Lynx, had good cover for the most part, except twords the bottom.


At Mt Ellen, FIS had as much snow on it as it ever does, Upper Rimrun, and Elbow were great, and Rimrun was good for the most part, but did have some thinn spots.

Cruiser, and Strait Shot had great cover.

North star, Inverness, and the Cliffs were getting real thin.

So as far as increasing capacity, and spending more money on snowmaking would only increese pass and ticket prices.

What makes sense, is to upgrade all the guns to Low E as to make more of the compressed air resources, and Increase the capacity for any given window of operations, so that it would be possible to make more snow when it is most economical to do so, and to get more terrain open faster early on.

I think what would make sense at North, would be to have a system that could blow top to bottom, and estabilish a base very quickly at the top, provided good temperatures, Top to bottom arround thanks giving would be a great thing as it would keep the crowds spread out.

Although it all comes down to what is economical to do so, and I feel pretty confident that Win and SV know what is economical and feasible to do.

I think what I would like to see is with Sugarbush having Vermonts most effecient snowmaking system, and operations.
Low E guns, and the capicity to make the best of the coldest, dryest weather.

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 08:42 PM
A few years out when the mountain has digested the costs of the current base expansion and perhaps the next phase or two I think SB definitely needs to look at expanding its snowmaking capacity. They need a bit more uphill pumping capacity and more over, a good sized reservoir to draw from. Nearly every mtn in the northeast has a decent reservoir, with the big players like okemo and now stowe with 110M+ gallon systems (and kmart has woodward). without the reservoirs many mtns run out of water during long cold snaps like the one we are about to have starting this friday night (whew-who!).

Don't get me wrong, I am not, under any circumstances, advocating that sugarbush blow icy rock candy all over the mtn like they do in southern VT. In fact, I DON"T think they should expand coverage (castlerock connection notwithstanding).

More uphill capacity and more H2O would allow them to open the mountain faster at the beginning of the season and recover from meltdowns faster mid season. Mid season meltdown recovery is paramount, particularly from xmas through late feb. You want to be able to resurface your iced over trails ASAP, more capacity gets that job done faster. Say what you want able Okemo's terrain (boring), they do a marvelous job recovering from meltdowns. And for that (and several other reasons), they have been rewarded with a dedicated following.

So I think arc1's point has SOME validity in that SB is now offering big time real estate and with that comes higher snowmaking expectations from that crowd. I think Win and team are up for the challenge. I'm sure they intend to squeeze all that they can out of what they have.

************************************************** ************
Warning you are about to enter fantasy land with the remainder of this post. :roll: Industry people lurking on this board are welcome to help correct me with my figures :)

I don't know these figures with certainty, but lets say that the average low-e gun converts 60 gallons per minute at 15 degrees. Lets say you have enormous uphill capacity, something like 10k gallons per minute (which is probably way too much for SB, but about what Okemo has). At 10k per minute one could run 166 guns simultaneously if you are using 60 gallons per gun (on average). Consider the average gun is spaced 100ft apart (is this too close or too far, someone please help) then you could reach 3.14 miles of terrain a night. Now one more step, if your Okemo or Kmart with 50+ miles of terrain with snowmaking coverage you are going to need allot of water. In this hypothetical system with a 110M gallon pond you could blow snow for 7.63 days straight.

There is another measure of a snowmaking system; acre feet per hr. I believe it takes approximately 200,000 gallons of water (depending on the snow quality one seeks) to cover 1 acre with 1 ft of snow. Therefore, with 110M gallons, you could cover 550 acres with 1 ft of snow. If the average trail is 80ft wide, then the average trail acre is 544.5 ft long (43650/80), which in turn means you could convert that 110M gallons into 56.7 miles of terrain (550 acres X 544.5 =299,475 / 5280) in just 7.63 days. Of course, 1ft for average coverage is a little too thin for early season, but about right for those mid season meltdown recoveries.

okay, I'm sure I have made some mistakes, so fire away. -cheers

ps - I can think of one problem, no mtn crew, no matter how talented, can shutdown/move/start up 166 guns around 18 times without interruption over 7.63 days. I guess that is why, in part, mtns have so many extra guns.

freeheel_skier
11-29-2006, 09:13 PM
************************************************** ************
Warning you are about to enter fantasy land with the remainder of this post. :roll: Industry people lurking on this board are welcome to help correct me with my figures :)

I don't know these figures with certainty, but lets say that the average low-e gun converts 60 gallons per minute at 15 degrees. Lets say you have enormous uphill capacity, something like 10k gallons per minute (which is probably way too much for SB, but about what Okemo has). At 10k per minute one could run 166 guns simultaneously if you are using 60 gallons per gun (on average). Consider the average gun is spaced 100ft apart (is this too close or too far, someone please help) then you could reach 3.14 miles of terrain a night. Now one more step, if your Okemo or Kmart with 50+ miles of terrain with snowmaking coverage you are going to need allot of water. In this hypothetical system with a 110M gallon pond you could blow snow for 7.63 days straight.

There is another measure of a snowmaking system; acre feet per hr. I believe it takes approximately 200,000 gallons of water (depending on the snow quality one seeks) to cover 1 acre with 1 ft of snow. Therefore, with 110M gallons, you could cover 550 acres with 1 ft of snow. If the average trail is 80ft wide, then the average trail acre is 544.5 ft long (43650/80), which in turn means you could convert that 110M gallons into 56.7 miles of terrain (550 acres X 544.5 =299,475 / 5280) in just 7.63 days. Of course, 1ft for average coverage is a little too thin for early season, but about right for those mid season meltdown recoveries.

okay, I'm sure I have made some mistakes, so fire away. -cheers

ps - I can think of one problem, no mtn crew, no matter how talented, can shutdown/move/start up 166 guns around 18 times without interruption over 7.63 days. I guess that is why, in part, mtns have so many extra guns.



I am a confused simpleton. :? Where do you get your information? Are the figures industry accurate or arguments sake? Maybe the industry lurkers will chime in....BTW, I stunk @ physics in high school! :shock: :wink:

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 09:25 PM
lets just say that i once spent a my three week college winter break between semesters blowing snow as part of the night crew at a ski area in the berkshires. i also spent a summer as an intern many years ago in NH for one of the leading design/land use planning/engineering/consulting firms in the ski industry. some of my figures come from that experience, others from factoids collected over the years from industry people and a few from the internet.

i'm no physics expert, just a ski dork. too bad that name is already taken on the AZ.

ski_resort_observer
11-29-2006, 09:25 PM
Wow, that's pretty impressive. I'm no snowmaking expert by any means but a couple of problems in your senerio jumped out at me. What do you do if your power supply to run the system is not unlimited? Electricity doesn't grow on trees.

After 7.63 days and you drain the water supply how do you replenish 110m gallons in the pond to make snow the next day or the next week? Vermont has extremely tight restrictions regarding taking water out the Mad River mostly having to do with waterlife habitat so it would be some time to replenish the pond depending on the weather. I remember one winter where the pond never got filled up and that was when it was 60m gal.

You obviously know the Bush pretty well in that you mentioned the problems with the Castlerock Connection.

Lostone
11-29-2006, 09:34 PM
I've pretty much stayed out of this as much of it requires knowledge and memory. Both of which I seem to be short on. But I do know a few things.

First of all, the big problem we had last year is the same problem we have now. (Can't believe the mountain hasn't figured a way around this in a whole year! ) It is too warm. :(

Don't matter how much up or downhill capacity you have when the temps hit 40°... you're kinda sol. :roll:

If memory serves me right, the new guns are more particular as to temperature than the old ones. They are slightly less efficient and their quality is not as good when the temps are in the high 20s and low 30s, but are demonstratively better as the temps get lower.

The other thing I know is most of the new-guns are mounted on towers. They're already in place, and if you had the chance to run them when tey were in use at good temps, last year, you know they can put out the nicest sweet powder. I found them making real good stuff on Ripcord, Stein's, Snowball and Pushover, last season. Other trails have them, but I remember staying under the guns for multiple runs on these trails, last season. Sweeeeet! :D

freeheel_skier
11-29-2006, 09:36 PM
lets just say that i once spent a my three week college winter break between semesters blowing snow as part of the night crew at a ski area in the berkshires. i also spent a summer as an intern many years ago in NH for one of the leading design/land use planning/engineering/consulting firms in the ski industry. some of my figures come from that experience, others from factoids collected over the years from industry people and a few from the internet.

i'm no physics expert, just a ski dork. too bad that name is already taken on the AZ.

I was jsut curious about the factoids. I was wondering how you came up with the #'s. I figured you either knew what you were talking about or were crazy like my physics teacher! :lol: He always said "everything in life is related to physics".....I am scared for life! :oops:

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 09:45 PM
Perhaps my estimate of the amount of water needed per acre ft of snow is off. Or Sundary River is just being its old ASC self. If you take their stated GPM and multiple it by 60 minutes = 540,000 gallons per hr and divide that by 4.06 (their claimed acre foot per hr capacity) then you get a water usage per acre ft of snow of 133,000. I think that is a little low on the snow density. From what I have scene its typically around 150k to 200k.

Below are their snowmaking stats per their website.

http://www.sundayriver.com/mountainstatistics.html

SNOWMAKING:
Terrain Coverage 92%
Water Capacity 9,000 gallons per minute
Air Capacity 60,000 cubic feet per minute @ 150 p.s.i.
Snowmaking capacity 4.06 acre feet per hour
Snowmaking arsenal 1,570 guns
Miles of pipe in system (approximate) 72
Miles of hose in system (approximate) 30

Because I feel bad posting up their stats on the SkiMRV chatboard, let me also point out that Sunday River absolutely must have this manmoth system because it gets about 100 less inches a year of the natural white gold than Sugarbush.

Lostone
11-29-2006, 09:47 PM
Everything is related to physics. We are nothing but a bunch (A very large bunch) of atoms.

Actually, we are space. Want to hear a very interesting program about it? Radio Lab (http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2006/05/12)

Extremely interesting, as are others in their series.

Nothing on snowmaking tho... yet. :P

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 10:01 PM
SRO,

Regarding the power shortage, most mtns rent generators for the season. They are loud and dirty...and I am sure no ski area operator is very happy to have to do this.

Regarding the water supply, once it is depleted you might not ever get it fully refilled until after the season, but having that reserve to use one or two times is better than where you are now without it. Plus most mountains divert a portion of their runoff back to their resevoir, so when you get that nasty three day warm up, your pond is refilling with your melting snowbase. One of the chief purposes of a reservoir is to circumvent the water withdrawl limitations, particularly in winter when the water is needed, that most state agencies have on mtn streams these days. I could never imagine the state allowing much, if any, water withdraw from the Mad River for SB. That is why you need the reservoir. :)

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 10:05 PM
Richie, completly diverging from the subject matter, care to elborate on why you have fancied yourself as Richie Tenenbaum? The Royal Tenenbaums is a wild movie. So memorable, so original. I need to see it again, its been a while. Like Tin's Borat, its a great avatar imagine. 8)

freeheel_skier
11-29-2006, 10:22 PM
I'm a quietly heart broken tennis player/freeheeler! :lol: I gave up tennis to spend more time skiing....really. It's not like I took my shoes off during a match to sit down and have a meltdown or anything....geesh! :P

I am also a big fan of Wes Anderson and the Wilson bros. writing/directing.

BTW, T.W. (not to be confused with Tiger Woods) was using the Borat avitar long b4 the movie.. :wink:

ski_resort_observer
11-29-2006, 10:28 PM
I was surprised that they have 1500+ guns since I thought kmart had 1200 guns, the most in the east.

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 10:31 PM
Okay, so there is a tennis connection. Kool. Aside from not having a breakdown like Richie T, I suppose its also safe to assume that you don't sport the same outfit everyday (including headband) like all the characters in Royal T too. :lol:

About T.W., that's what makes his imagine so great, the fact that he beat the movie by a full year. Niiiice.

freeheel_skier
11-29-2006, 10:36 PM
Regarding "Someday Bigger" and their stats lets put it this way. Their vertical rise of 2340 is definately smoke and mirrors. 15 years ago they had 1500 vert, 10 years ago it grew to 1700, now it's 2340. The mountains didn't grow, they just expanded mostly horizontaly up and down the ridge. I'm not bashing SR, know alot of people who love the place and they do make alot of snow just pointing out why SR is not a good comparison. They really only have a skiable vert of about 1500 vs 2400-2600 for the Bush so uphill capacity should be alot less.

I was surprised that they have 1500+ guns since I thought kmart had 1200 guns, the most in the east.


I was going to bring this up earlier when I mentioned JH being closed.....JH has 4,139' of vert. Killington claims 3,050'. What gives??? I spent a couple seasons in Jackson & there is no way it only has 1,089' vet on K....someone is embelishing :?

Regarding my wardrobe, I have been known to wear the same baselayer & socks for a week....pee-eww!

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 11:02 PM
Killington's vert is calculated from the tippy top of the radio tower up on Catwalk all the way down to the ottawechee river (spelling help) down below the starship gondola base. At kmart, you mostly ski in 1000 to 1650ft vt intervals, not the 4100ft tram intervals at JH. For instance, i think the vert between the killington base lodge and summit (k-1 gondola) is about 1650ft vertical (2550 base, 4200ft summit.) Snowdon has 1100 vertical and the Superstar chair about 1250ft.

Say what you want about your base layer, I'll be looking for a ratty early 80s era headband on a feelheel skier (free the heel, free the mind) next time I'm at the 'bush.

ski_resort_observer
11-29-2006, 11:07 PM
Regarding "Someday Bigger" and their stats lets put it this way. Their vertical rise of 2340 is definately smoke and mirrors. 15 years ago they had 1500 vert, 10 years ago it grew to 1700, now it's 2340. The mountains didn't grow, they just expanded mostly horizontaly up and down the ridge. I'm not bashing SR, know alot of people who love the place and they do make alot of snow just pointing out why SR is not a good comparison. They really only have a skiable vert of about 1500 vs 2400-2600 for the Bush so uphill capacity should be alot less.

I was surprised that they have 1500+ guns since I thought kmart had 1200 guns, the most in the east.


I was going to bring this up earlier when I mentioned JH being closed.....JH has 4,139' of vert. Killington claims 3,050'. What gives??? I spent a couple seasons in Jackson & there is no way it only has 1,089' vet on K....someone is embelishing :?

Regarding my wardrobe, I have been known to wear the same baselayer & socks for a week....pee-eww!

Disclaimer: I deleted the vert thing in my original post regarding SR cause the more I thought about it I figured that my point was wrong in that due to their large size horizontily makes up for lack of true vert in uphill capacity needs.

You get the big vert at kmart only if you ski all the way down to the bottom of the Skye lift on Rt 4 which very few would do unless your returning to your parked car. For SR you get the big vert if you traverse all the way from the top of the Oz lift all the way down to the bottom of White Cap. I actually did this the last time I was there...it was way long, lots of poling but the worst part was crossing in the middle of dozens of busy trails. Lots of resorts have done this, including the Loaf by squeezing out another 300' by putting a lift down the hill into the condo area from the base.

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 11:12 PM
Geeze SRO, I don't think your point about Someday Bigger was off base. Sure, the vertical is technically there and of course they are going to boast of it, but your point is still valid. Nobody really ski's their full vert with much enjoyment. Like Kmart, you ski mostly in 1000-1500 vert intervals. This is somewhat true at SB, but at least you can ski all 2400 or 2600 on two lift rides without much or any poling.

ski_resort_observer
11-29-2006, 11:25 PM
Geeze SRO, I don't think your point about Someday Bigger was off base. Sure, the vertical is technically there and of course they are going to boast of it, but your point is still valid. Nobody really ski's their full vert with much enjoyment. Like Kmart, you ski mostly in 1000-1500 vert intervals. This is somewhat true at SB, but at least you can ski all 2400 or 2600 on two lift rides without much or any poling.

Apparently you haven't had the pleasure of skiing lower FIS :lol: Actually I don't mind the poling as much as getting stuff thrown at me from kids on Slidebrook I decided to put that trail on ignore. One time a bunch of kids were thowing firecrackers down on the trail.

random_ski_guy
11-29-2006, 11:32 PM
I have, it was a long time ago. Whenever I am up there these days I never seem to get over to it.

They should leave some sled dogs at the bottom of that thing.

The endless run out is a good test of your ski wax.

Tin Woodsman
11-30-2006, 11:46 AM
Getting this discussion back on topic, does anyone know where the low E guns are located? I know Ripcord, Steins and U/L Organgrinder have them. I suspect that Upper FIS does as well. Where are the others, and as a result, where are the opportunities to install more?

trtaylor
11-30-2006, 02:20 PM
I'm a lurker, so I hope the regulars don't mind me jumping in (my guess is not), but I am a tech/geek/engineer kinda guy and thought some of you would find these snowmaking stats interesting:

Snowmaking: 100% on all 156 acres of terrain
· Miles of Pipe: 40
· Compressor Capacity: 40,000 cfm
· 1500 Snow Guns including: 350 Snowstorm Avalanche 7's, 30 Avalanche 15’s, 9 Aerotech 357 Magnums, 110 Whisper Guns, 20 Quads, 600 Tower Guns, 14 Airless Fan Guns, 130 high-efficiency towers and 40 tower and sled-mounted snowguns

The above is from Camelback, an 800 vertical feet hill located in the Poconos of Pennsylvania. I think their natural snowfall averages 50" or so per year.

Tim

smootharc
11-30-2006, 02:35 PM
Vermont Winter Guide (or some similar title) in the free aisle at Paradise Deli last weekend.

One of those two had a snowmaking article.....and extensive discussion of low e guns and how they work. Something about they make better snow, but have a much more limited effective temp range they work within....like Lost touched upon.

Just fyi.

Mike_451
11-30-2006, 02:55 PM
Wow this thread has taken off......


I know publicly they have said they are on Stiens and Ripcord, I do remember seeing some new heads on the towers on Pushover, and Easyrider. I am guessing (correct me if I am wrong) SB gets its regular guns from HKT (snowgun.com) though I am not sure who makes the Low E guns. I guess they have been adding more yearly, and I also wonder what they have at M/E because out behind the Snomaking builing is a graveyard of old rusted over guns. Perhaps Win could comment on exactly wherre they have the Low E guns, and where and if they plan to add more.

My undersdanding is they are quietly adding them yearly.

They seem to do good snowmaking with the current system, after all look at the fact that last season that Glen Ellen was open as long as it ever is. Part of that to a mild spring though and temps that allowed for grooming.

It would make sense though to mass up the largest system possible, and them make a much greater volume when the temps are below 15 degrees, or even better in the single digits.

In addition more snowmaking could be done at night, less round the clock operations, so that the snow could have a chance to dry out, and possibly be groomed before opening in the morning, this would be espicialy nice on the terrain frequented by the Ski School becuase the guns are so loud that it is hard for Instructors to comunicate with students.

In addition having the capicity to blast a meaningful ammount of snow would make night time resurfacing of a wide ammount of terrain possible.

Of course when it is cold, we all want to be able to look up at the mountain and see every single gun on, but this too big of a mountain for that, at least untill Fusion power is arround and it would become redicously cheap to pump water from Lake Champlain, and to generate massive ammounts of compressed air, though I am hoping that SV will eventualy make public what they are planning to do with the system in the future. From Wins comments, it sounds like they are in the planning stages, and that they are deciding what is both economical and necessary, and looking at all the options.

Snowmaking is a great tech and it is only getting better, and having been to places that only care about quantity, Sugarbush is into making the best product they can, and they have been doing a great job with the quality, and the cover where they do blow, but I guess it is prety obvious that they could use more capicity, to make Sugar at the Bush (I hope they don't start calling it something like that, Killingtons Signarture Sneaux is so Fith Avenue)

As far as the total ammount made, I see that beeing increesed by adding more Low E guns, supposedly that they have made more as a result of them, that could potentialy increese capacity and quality dramatically, with out increasing the budget.

Again having the capacity to make more snow durring the very coldest weather, could also increese the volume and keep the costs constant.

I guess having claybrook might increese skier days and pass sales enoguh to increese the snowmaking budget without raising ticket prices, just keep buying 3.50 Sodas and 6.00 Burgers in the caffe. (I really hope some of that makes its way to snowmaking, only reason I ever buy it)

Though I think the embarrassment of having to had close this week while K-Mart has from what I hear decent conditions top to bottom, could have been avoided for instance, even if the system at Glen Ellen and Sugarbush were interconected.

As far as water, I guess the idea is to try to get as much of the water that comes out of the melting snowpack back to the pond, to re-use. Mabey the pond needs to be dredged deeper, and possibly enlarged..... I can't think of to much open land where additional stoarge could be added. What about the water treatment facility, the large concrete holding tank which I have only ever seen filled with a few feet of water?


Anyway it would be nice if someone from the resort could fill us in on the specifics of the Low E guns, mabey one of the Mods could email Win and ask him to chime in, it would end alot of speculation.

Lostone
11-30-2006, 02:56 PM
The above is from Camelback, an 800 vertical feet hill located in the Poconos of Pennsylvania. I think their natural snowfall averages 50" or so per year.

First of all, we don't mind you jumping in. That's what we're here for. Quite the opposite... welcome to the board. :)

As to the 800' vertical, that is a little less than our Gatehouse area.

If you look at the Sugarbush trail map (http://www.sugarbush.com/images/skiandride/trailmap0607large.jpg), it is the mountain on the left and the high speed quad on the right. Most of that is covered, tho Castlerock Connection and Sleeper Road aren't.

Now, we might not have the snowmaking capacity you do, on that part. But if you look at everything around that area... we have a lot more mountain! :D

C'mon up and visit, when we're full open. we have a lot of skiing... and we have a lot of great skiing!

Do I sound like an ambassador? :oops: :lol:

Tin Woodsman
11-30-2006, 03:09 PM
Yeah - what Lostone said. It's good to get some fresh blood in here!

As for changes/improvements to the system, maybe I'm a total geek (maybe? right) but I'd love a rundown of even the little things the mtn did in the off-season w/r/t snowmaking. Any new low E guns/nozzles? Any compressor upgrades? Pipe replaced? any small plans for the next year or two before the larger projects (system interconnect, large scale upgrade at ME) kick in? Has the pond for LP been fully dug out to its permitted capacity? I know that was an issue in the ASC days.

Mike_451
11-30-2006, 03:09 PM
Do I sound like an ambassador? :oops: :lol




I didn't know you were a fan of Sugarbush, :lol:

trtaylor
11-30-2006, 03:20 PM
The above is from Camelback, an 800 vertical feet hill located in the Poconos of Pennsylvania. I think their natural snowfall averages 50" or so per year.

First of all, we don't mind you jumping in. That's what we're here for. Quite the opposite... welcome to the board. :)

As to the 800' vertical, that is a little less than our Gatehouse area.

If you look at the Sugarbush trail map (http://www.sugarbush.com/images/skiandride/trailmap0607large.jpg), it is the mountain on the left and the high speed quad on the right. Most of that is covered, tho Castlerock Connection and Sleeper Road aren't.

Now, we might not have the snowmaking capacity you do, on that part. But if you look at everything around that area... we have a lot more mountain! :D

C'mon up and visit, when we're full open. we have a lot of skiing... and we have a lot of great skiing!

Do I sound like an ambassador? :oops: :lol:

Thanks. I check this board almost every day and was certain I would be made to feel welcome. First class group of people here.

As far as the invite to the 'bush, I do indeed plan on skiing there sometime this winter. And I'll let you know when I plan to get there.

Thanks.

ski_it
11-30-2006, 03:33 PM
By chance, I rode the lift with Hardy on Saturday, and the topic of the new Low E guns actually came up in our conversation. He told me that they don't have any of them at Mount Ellen-- they are all over at Lincoln Peak. I didn't ask what percentage of the heads at Lincoln Peak have been switched over and/or where they're located, so don't have anything to add there.

Hardy mentioned what's already been said here in this thread that the Low E guns are more sensitive to temperature, etc. He also said that he was really happy with the quality of what had been laid down at Mount Ellen so far this year, and I would agree. The snow quality was very nice last weekend.

Mike_451
11-30-2006, 03:41 PM
Yeah, the low e guns rely more on temps than compressed air, thus reducing the volume of air and air pressures required. As a result I don't immagin the arsinal beeing completly Low E, as they would still need guns optimized for covering large ammounts of terrrain, or guns for higher temps, to open in November, but it seems like the Low E Guns would be best in january once it is consistantly cold, at least when it should be consistantly cold.

random_ski_guy
11-30-2006, 03:50 PM
low e is great. good for keeping operating costs down, good for making lower density snow (higher quality) and better for the environment (less electrical consumption to run air compressors). but all the low e guns in the world don't make up for a general lack of uphill pumping capacity and water to convert to snow. you need uphill gpm, you need water.

of course natural is the best, and sugarbush much more than most.

Mike_451
11-30-2006, 03:56 PM
exactly, and all the snowmaking asside, there would still be lots of great skiing at Sugarbush, just as there is at MRG, just not as much of it. This can't be said about many of the resorts south of Sugarbush. 8)

Regarding the uphill capicity, I think this is what is preventing the use of Low E guns at Glen Ellen, as there simpily isn't enough water from the pond at ME , and enough pumping capicity to benifit from the added volume from Low E guns.

Hence they are supposedly looking into interconnecting the systems, or adding an additional remote pond to Glen Ellen.

Bubba
11-30-2006, 04:20 PM
Vermont Winter Guide (or some similar title) in the free aisle at Paradise Deli last weekend.

.





There is no Free aisle at Paradise.

Terry's Lookin' for you. :P

ski_resort_observer
11-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Vermont Winter Guide (or some similar title) in the free aisle at Paradise Deli last weekend.

.





There is no Free aisle at Paradise.

Terry's Lookin' for you. :P

LMAO and Roberta probably has the shotgun.

HowieT2
11-30-2006, 04:28 PM
Is there any snowmaking purpose to the small reservoir that was dug next to cat's Meow this summer? If I recall correctly the main purpose was for fire suppression for the new buildings.

ski_resort_observer
11-30-2006, 04:31 PM
I'm going on memory here but I think a few years ago they did a major dredging of the pond, that went a long way in increasing the pond from 60 to 110m gallons. The Mad River just doesn't have alot of water, normaly, and just getting the permit to build it was a long and expensive process.

Mike_451
11-30-2006, 06:39 PM
I think they have free match books at Paradise, I also got some free chicken wings at the end of the day once, because they were going to trash them anyway, and I have a friend who got a burger for free for the same reason.

Speeking of Snowmaking, mabey we should all drop by Paradise, buy a couple bags of ice, take them up to the mountain, and dump them on lower organgrinder, unfourtionalty my logic behind that Idea is flawed, because there aren't a thousand of us who would consider doing that, and I doubt they have more than a dozen or two bags of Ice, but I guess I had to throw something in this that was relative to the topic. :roll:

I guess for that to work, we would have to buy out Paridse, Warren Store (I guess that have ice) Meheurans, the Valaro, the Mobil station in Irasville, the "VG", Macs (it would probably burn down agin before we got to it), Whatever that place is in Moretown, and the Deli in Middlesex, and I know there a couple of places in Bristol, and probably every place in the danm state.

Man, am I in withdraw from hitting lines of that wite, dry, powdery substance that sends chills down your spine or what? :shock:

Mabey I should head to K-Mart for some Ski Rehab, o wait there sure as heck isnt any powder there either :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Guess I will have to be paitent, with the rest of yall, before I can take the chair lift up HIGH....

Man, what a corny attempt at a cheap o analogy

Well enough of this rant of shear boredom.
:?

Off to patch my bases up with P-tex, so I can chew them up agian on sunday.

BushMogulMaster
11-30-2006, 07:47 PM
I suppose it's my turn to get technical regarding Low E and temps...

The industry's most robust Low E gun is the Ratnik Sky Giant IV, cabable of turning 280 gallons of water to snow in one minute. That's a lot of snow. However, that assumes 8-14 degree temps, and 600 PSI. 8-14 degree aren't all that frequent, and from my knowledge and research, neither South or North have nearly the pumping power to retain 600 PSI the whole way up the mountain (due to the loss per foot of PSI pumping through the pipes). This gun is capable of operating at up to 29.7 degrees, which is not bad. However, at 29.7 degrees with 250 PSI (a much more reasonable number) this gun is only cabable of converting 44 GPM. This is still a decent number, but remember... this is the most powerful Low E gun on the market, and in turn, quite expensive. These specs also assume 36 degree water and 34 degree air. While this is not a problem in mid winter, early season it may be an issue. Now, in layman's terms, since 1 Acre Foot of Snow = 139,322 Gallons of Water, it would take about three days to make 1 acre foot of snow (one foot of snow over one acre) at 29 degrees. That's not very much snow.

So, to recapitulate, Low E guns need much lower temps and much more water pressure to make the volume of snow that they are capable of. This is not to say that Sugarbush should not continue to add Low E guns to the fleet. On the contrary, I think it is a crucial component of snowmaking. However, it is also necessary to retain a reasonable number of standard air/water snowguns. Several of Ratnik's Snow Giant guns are capable of making limited amounts of snow at up to 48 degrees. This is, of course, rather uneconomical. But they are obviously useful when the temps are getting in the upper 20s and lower 30s.

BushMogulMaster
11-30-2006, 08:14 PM
Okay, I'm going to elaborate a little more about the pressure issues. I mentioned that the great numbers on the Ratnik gun assumed 600 PSI, and that 250 PSI is a more reasonable number.

While the water pumps are quite capable of pumping at higher than 600 PSI, one must take into account the loss of pressure due to vertical rise. For every 2.31 vertical feet, 1 PSI is lost. This being the case, by mid at Glen Ellen (approx. 1500' vert) the water pressure has already dropped by 649.35 PSI. At mid, there is a pump house to boost the pressure. However, it is still unreasonable to assume 600 PSI over the whole mountain, especially at the top.

Not only is there pressure lost due to vertical rise, but also due to friction in the pipes. Calculating this is a hugely complex process that I'm not going to bother with figuring out right now... but just realize that this also affects the pressure.

Being realistic, even if it was possible to pump at a pressure great enough to sustain 600 PSI all over the mountain, this pressure would be so great it would likely burst many of the older pipes and possibly destroy the entire infrastructure.

There is so much to consider when discussing upgrading snowmaking. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as saying, "let's just buy more guns and bigger pumps!" If it was that simple, Sugarbush would likely be making hundreds of upgrades all the time. But, it's not that simple and it probably never will be.

So, what I'm getting at is....... upgrading is good, but one must always realize the upsides and pitfalls of certain upgrades. I trust that Win knows what he's doing and has the right people to do the job. I know Hardy has an extensive background in snowmaking, and I'm sure through the course of the years we will see intelligent and reasonable upgrades to the system.

Alright, I'm done ranting (for now!).

Lostone
11-30-2006, 08:25 PM
Great info! :)

I'm reading this thread and thinking how much good info I was getting that I hadn't heard of when... I remembered that I was sitting at a computer. :shock: :lol:


Here's how it works:

The main source of energy consumption in snowmaking is the production of compressed air, so Low-E guns have special nozzles that atomize the water into finer particles, relying less on compressed air to do the same job. The catch is that Low-E guns have a more limited operating temperature range. While regular guns can shoot out powder when it's upwards of 38 degrees, the optimal conditions for Low-E guns is 14-24 degrees, with little wind. Plus, they're expensive - about $1,250 each. Still, places like Killington, Okemo and Sugarbush are loading up on them, and reaping the rewards of reduced energy bills.

This and more info. (http://www.vtsports.com/magazine/content.cfm?storyID=118) :wink:

Treeskier
11-30-2006, 08:55 PM
Kmart/ASC took a grand step. They built a pipe 16 miles long to a lake south of them so they would have unlimited water for snow making. It took 3 years to build. (I believe) To make Sugarbush a compeditor in that market we could build a pipe to our big lake to our west.....lake Champlain. Then like Les did in Maine convince the VT/US goverment to finance a power plant to power a sewage treatment plant to pump the water. (may not have all the fact correct) but then we would have unlimited water and power. While we are at it we should also put some trails on the west side so we can use the snowy western slopes to our benefit. That would make us a big time competor..it only takes $$$$$....in the mean time.

I keep doing my snow dance so mother nature can make the snow for use....snow flakes in the weather report everyday next week. :)

Abe Froman
11-30-2006, 09:12 PM
Kmart/ASC took a grand step. They built a pipe 16 miles long to a lake south of them so they would have unlimited water for snow making. It took 3 years to build. (I believe) To make Sugarbush a compeditor in that market we could build a pipe to our big lake to our west.....lake Champlain. Then like Les did in Maine convince the VT/US goverment to finance a power plant to power a sewage treatment plant to pump the water. (may not have all the fact correct) but then we would have unlimited water and power. While we are at it we should also put some trails on the west side so we can use the snowy western slopes to our benefit. That would make us a big time competor..it only takes $$$$$....in the mean time.

I keep doing my snow dance so mother nature can make the snow for use....snow flakes in the weather report everyday next week. :)

No offense Treeskier....you can stop dancing. :? It ain't working, it was 60 today. :shock:

Jinx buy me a beer :shock:

Lostone
11-30-2006, 09:23 PM
Don't believe him Treeskier!

He just wants you to stop dancing so he can get the credit when the ship comes in... so to speak. :wink:

Abe Froman
11-30-2006, 09:30 PM
No, I really want him to stop. He is bad luck. :twisted: I will not take credit for anything. I am doing my own private ocd snow thing. 8)

Back to lurking :wink:

Plowboy
11-30-2006, 10:01 PM
Vermont Winter Guide (or some similar title) in the free aisle at Paradise Deli last weekend.

.





There is no Free aisle at Paradise.

Terry's Lookin' for you. :P

Yea from Key West for the winter. LOLOLOLOL

Plowboy
11-30-2006, 10:12 PM
No need to get ice from stores, just go to the Waterbury with a loader and dump truck. Thats what I did for the Rail Jam at the Big Picture.

WTF if I can't plow it might as well haul it. http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/MX51/cornholios.gif

Mike_451
11-30-2006, 11:04 PM
Heh, I didn't think about that.............

Though seriously, just an idea, what about building a tent like structure at the base, controling the humidity and temperature, blasting snow inside of it, and then taking it up on the mountain with a front end loader? I don't have enough technical knowlage to know if it is a stupid idea, but then again supposedly because nobody does it leades me to belive that is its a dumb idea......

It seems like it would make sense to deploy low e guns everywhere possible when the conditions make sense. Place them on the trails that you never blast until january, and start off with regular guns early season to estabilish an inital base, and then get out the low E guns for when the temperatures are colder to resurface those trails, as needed, and to establish a deep base.

Plowboy
11-30-2006, 11:18 PM
Done, but you don't need a loader, you just have to go to Dubia.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/MX51/ski_dubai_outside.jpg

ski_resort_observer
11-30-2006, 11:23 PM
The hope every year for most resorts in the NE is that by January you don't need any snowmaking. :D By the way they are building a "snow dome" near the Meadowlands in Jersey.

Mike_451
11-30-2006, 11:32 PM
Apperently when they opened it though, they had to make snow for an entire month........
Although because it is refrigerated I guess you don't really need to make snow after you open, just groom the heck out of it to keep it from getting icy, so I guess that negates the need for any real snowmaking.

I wonder though, about having a snow production facilitiy and moving it about with a front end loader. What about setting up a tent over lets say Easy Rider durring the summer, having year round indoor sking. The idea, plow all the remaining snow off pushover down onto it in april, and erect the tent. Refrigerate, and produce snow as necessary, set up some small table top jumps, and misclenious rails, Starting in october, start producing large ammounts of snow as to completly fill the tent, then take it down in november, and push it up pushover, down sugarbear road, and use it to open the gate house chair early in the season for beginer skiers, and be the only resort in Vermont to offer year round skiing.

Just a stupid dumb @!## idea, but I wonder if it would work.......

I think I might start a company and manufacture snow durring the winter, store it in a super insulated "snow barn" and sell it off in the summer for rail jams etc...

Heck we could all go to Dubai and ski, but I guess by the time we get their Sugarbush will be open agian.......
O wait killington is open thanks to their massive snowmaking system.
At least SB gave it their all and tried their best......


How about Making a giant fan gun the size of a large wind tunnel and blasting the entire mountain......
Super Mega Snow Cannon or something, ASC would call it a Super Sneaux Blaster...... :oops:

Plowboy
11-30-2006, 11:38 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

HowieT2
12-01-2006, 07:50 AM
Man you guys are desperate. I have to say this weather really blows especially on the heels of last winter. I mean it's not even a close call rain/snow. It is downright tropical in the northeast. Hopefully, we'll wake up tomorrow and this will all be a bad dream.

BTW- I saw a show on the indoor ski facility in Madrid and they do make snow so that it's nice and fresh every day and groomed. I'll believe they'll get that one done in NJ when I see it. The developer is having financial trouble.

Bubba
12-01-2006, 08:54 AM
Ironic isn't it?
All these years we used diesel generators so we could make snow.
Diesel exhaust =global warming=no snow.

random_ski_guy
12-01-2006, 08:55 AM
Hey Bushmogulmaster, thanks for the insights on PSI and that magic number, 139k gallons of water per acre foot of snow. Good stuff.

Mike 451, surf the internet for info on the prior owners of tenney mtn in NH. A company from japan ran the mtn for a season as a demonstration site for their manmade snow product which is made at the base and then blown up the mtn through the pipes. Basically, they have a ice cube maker at the base and fatter hoses to blow the ice through the lines to the trail. I think it failied miserably. As for the front end loader idea. To move just one acre ft of snow up the mtn you need to make 1613 trips assuming you have a 3cubic yard bucket (43560sq ft/9yds/3yd bucket) :shock: . Good luck with that idea.

Winter arrives midnight friday. Looks like its going to stick around too for at least a solid week. Whew-hooo! :D

ski_resort_observer
12-01-2006, 10:00 AM
Hey Bushmogulmaster, thanks for the insights on PSI and that magic number, 139k gallons of water per acre foot of snow. Good stuff.

Mike 451, surf the internet for info on the prior owners of tenney mtn in NH. A company from japan ran the mtn for a season as a demonstration site for their manmade snow product which is made at the base and then blown up the mtn through the pipes. Basically, they have a ice cube maker at the base and fatter hoses to blow the ice through the lines to the trail. I think it failied miserably. As for the front end loader idea. To move just one acre ft of snow up the mtn you need to make 1613 trips assuming you have a 3cubic yard bucket (43560sq ft/9yds/3yd bucket) :shock: . Good luck with that idea.

Winter arrives midnight friday. Looks like its going to stick around too for at least a solid week. Whew-hooo! :D

If memory serves Tenney wasn't owned by the Sno-Magic people and the system worked but it was Tenney's financial problems that caused them to sell the system to a small stadium in Alabama, Henry Aaron Stadium, something like that. The thing about this system was that they could make snow in summer, which they did. I seem to remember that they made a small strip of snow and people did ski on it in July, about 3/4 years ago. Going by memory here so I could have the facts alittle mixed up.

Dan Egan was involved and soon after he came to the Bush. Don't know if he is still here but would know all the details. Havn't heard anything else about it since then.

Did a quick search but all the links were cached out, just could find this
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:gnXobAM1-rwJ:www.tenneymtn.com/710103.html+snow+magic+tenney+mtn&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

Lostone
12-01-2006, 02:10 PM
The year they were doing it was one of the hottest summers.

They were hoping to keep some sort of park, but ended with just a tubing run.

I have seen a pic of a deer crossing the tubing run, in August, from their website.

I believe part of the idea was also to have tubing underground to cool that area. That just had to be expensive!

Still, the reason I was checking was that I had heard they were planning on summer skiing,and if they were actually open... I was going. :D