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Treeskier
11-28-2006, 08:46 AM
A missed opportunity

Got up mid day on Sunday to ski the rest of that day and Monday. Snow was nice. Thin in a few spots on Sunday. We lost a bunch of snow over night Sunday night. Only a small hand shoveled way down on Rim Run’s Baldy ( across from the lower FIS entrance) Hats off to Ski Patrol for keep shoveling through out Monday. Elbow bumps where sweet! Soft and nicely lined up! 66 Degrees in my car when I left.

Now for the missed opportunity. The grumbling was very loud. It was decided that all employees and their family’s could not ski this weekend. I understand that would decrease traffic. But what I think was not added into the equation is that many of the volunteers brought in their family’s (college kids with minimal ski time…) to celebrate the holiday. Many of these volunteers can afford to buy passes but choice to work for the MT for the commodore and to be close the MT. Many are older educated people who exude the Sugarbush sprit. But for them the “Benefit” is a ski pass that allows you to ski at Sugarbush. So to be told you can not ski put a very bad taste in many of their mouths. Plus many of the volunteers where able to get around it by doing some “Training” Not to mention the loss of all of the positive networking that happens when you see your ski friends for the first time of the season. One employee said that what they wished the MT had done is in the news letter make a statement something like “ We have very minimal snow. If your coming skiing come early or late when the crowds are down and if it gets super busy take some time off and let the guest have the snow” It also sadden people who learned that other higher people where able to have their family members ski. It was a missed opportunity for good will to your devoted volunteer employees/employees.

Now for the weather lets hope that the cold bubble that is due to come down on Friday comes down early and makes the rain storm a good snow storm. Doing my snow dance.

Thanks again to all of the patrollers and snow makers for their hard work keeping us skiing.

Lostone
11-28-2006, 10:11 AM
Let me start by stating that we all know (OK, at least most of us...) that I'm an addict. I really wanted to ski. Warm temps, blue sky, nice snow... I really wanted to ski.

That said, I understand what they did, and agree it was probably the best, for the long term. It is best that those who pay for tickets got what was best out of very limited terrain.

Most of the volunteers will get in their time on the snow. If we'd all gone out there, I really doubt we'd still be open, and that we'd made it thru Sunday. I think we would have at least doubled the amount of people on the mountain, and it couldn't have handled it.

Hopefully there will be enough of those days where we have to make our way thru deep powder, where we can feel the wait was worth it.

And for the record, I was out there on Saturday, and know the ALC was working their training such that when the lines started to build, they switched to non-trail training.

All that said, I appreciate your comment, as I know it was felt by many.

notorious
11-28-2006, 11:50 AM
I was going to stay away from this hot potato, but
since Treeskier has opened up this subject, I'll add my thoughts to it.

Much as my flatland patron mentality appreciated the gesture, and I was aware of the no employee policy last weekend, it didn't feel right. In several conversations on the valley floor, the locals made a strong point of expressing resentment. Many have extremely discounted passes available to them which would grant them patron status, but because they do parttime employee functions they forgo the discounted pass for employee badges. If they are kept in second class status, they don't feel the parttime gigs are worth the sacrifice of snow days.

We are all (locals and flatlanders) suffering from the same early season snow jones disease. From their point of view, what is the point of living in a ski town if you can't ski? Allusions were made to some long departed management guy who used to have a similar policy, and who was consequently scorned by the locals.

For me, one of the biggest satisfactions of skiing at Sugarbush has been the openness many locals have shown me and the many tips about snow and trail stashes that would have taken me years to discover without their help. They have been ambassadors for the mountain in the best sense, and I felt like I was dishonoring their generosity by skiing when they couldn't. (On the other hand, the Vice President of Recreation has trained me to take the snow whenever it is offered.) We all know the rubric, "No friends on a Powder Day") The same thing goes for early season snow.

In summary, I think the mountain needs to reconsider this policy. Further, some gesture of apology and compensatory privilege is warranted. My guess is that a free beer or two would do the trick. I'll chip in for the keg.

castlerock
11-28-2006, 11:53 AM
I was wondering why there were no lines over the weekend. I skied both Saturday and Sunday, and was surprised at the lack of a wait.....on the other hand, the traffic on the "2 trails" was a bit "deathspout" like during the mid-day.

I also was wondering why I didn't see some of my friends that are instructors. That explains it.

All that being said, I would vote not to ban employees in a similar situation in the future. People go into Thanksgiving skiing, expecting crowds and marginal conditions. The social aspect is a big part of it. There is an "old home week" attribute to it. The staff are part of the gestalt.

The motives were good, but please don't do it for my sake...

Now come early March, after a 2 foot storm.....Then put the employee ban in place.....

castlerock
11-28-2006, 12:09 PM
I have to say the more I have been thinking about it, the worse it feels. I actually feel guilty having skied this weekend.

Bad, bad idea.....Sure it was "customer centric" , but pulling out some terms from the past few years of business lexicon, you have to take care of all the "stakeholders" in an enterprise, and customers are just one of them....

Win/Adam, seriously, I would implore you take the opportunity to say to the staff, that it was a mistake. There have been lots of kudos on this board for the current management. Some times it feels a bit over the top, actually. I'll join in with applause, if you can deal with this kind of issue.

You have a chance to earn a lot of respect (the really hard earned kind) by how this is addressed with your team.

ski_resort_observer
11-28-2006, 12:19 PM
I was wondering why there were no lines over the weekend. I skied both Saturday and Sunday, and was surprised at the lack of a wait.....on the other hand, the traffic on the "2 trails" was a bit "deathspout" like during the mid-day.
...

I think you have pointed out 2 of the several reasons it was done. FWIW other resorts do the same thing. It's one of those situations where no matter what you decide there are going to be folks that will not like it. "Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't". I just don't understand why it's such a big deal...but that's me.

Alot of people think this weather is not that abnormal as compared with other years but it's turning out that November is going to be the most snowlessness on record. Avg temp for Nov is 25F, this year it will be around 34F. The good news is that in alot of years when the season starts out poorly it ends up being pretty good. :D

I think it's good that the subject was brought up here....no matter how we feel we should respect everyone's feeling on this..

random_ski_guy
11-28-2006, 12:28 PM
This is a tough call but i think it was made with safety in mind. I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of employee passes dispensed on the typical opening weekend. SB mgmt, based their experience, (Win didn't buy the mtn this summer) must have felt employees would have overwhelmed the mtn's narrow strip of snow.

I think is a unfortunate situation and one that lends itself to only opening weekend when terrain is so limited as it was this year. Perhaps if they could do it again they could have allowed for employees to ski after 1pm. Or they could have given out a limited number of employee passes based on first come first serve or seniority.

The fact is, the employees are integral to the mtn, but so aren't those who pay to ski too. Its a delicate balance and sometimes those who pay have to come first. sometimes.

noski
11-28-2006, 12:28 PM
... most snowlessness ...

Doesn't get much worse than that, I can't imagine. Exellent insight and well thought out comments that are not posed as flame. You guys are top shelf.

castlerock
11-28-2006, 12:38 PM
I was wondering why there were no lines over the weekend. I skied both Saturday and Sunday, and was surprised at the lack of a wait.....on the other hand, the traffic on the "2 trails" was a bit "deathspout" like during the mid-day.
...

I think you have pointed out 2 of the several reasons it was done. FWIW other resorts do the same thing. It's one of those situations where no matter what you decide there are going to be folks that will not like it. "Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't". I just don't understand why it's such a big deal...but that's me.

Yes those are the reasons, but I also said that people expect November skiing to be crowded with poor conditions.

It is a big deal to me as could see myself in the position that the employees were in, in the future. Many make sacrifices (choices really) where the mitigating factor is the quality of life/lifestyle of living in a resort community. You take that part away, (albeit temporarily) and you take away the thing that gives people the satisfaction of having made the decision to live in that environment.

When one makes the choice to have a lifestyle based on things other than pure financial gain, the other things (skiing, status in the community, etc) become part of your "self worth". It has value to you, more than the monetary compensation. If you take that away, I can see where one would feel they are a "second class citizen". By keeping the employees off the mountain, a big part of that balance was lost. That is why this was a big deal.

win
11-28-2006, 12:51 PM
OK guys. Here is my view. Our first principle is that THE INTEREST OF THE GUEST COMES FIRST and we are going to live by that. I will not compromise. Our employees our key to our success, and I do realize how important skiing is to them and their families, but when we have two trails open and are working hard to preserve the conditions as best as possible through the Holidays the first priority is going to the paying guest who pays everyone's salaries and makes the Resort viable. Our employees are here everyday and will have hopefully at least 153 days of skiing and riding. I am frankly suprised and disappointed if people do not get that.

ski_resort_observer
11-28-2006, 01:00 PM
All I can say is that the empoyees I know did not feel like "second class citizens". Some were alittle bummed but understood and some said " only two trails and downloading, no thanks, I can wait". One told me she was pissed cause now she has no good excuse to not work in the yard.

I truly believe that if employees and comps were skiing the snow coverage would have deteriated(sic) quickly to a point that at the very least it would have a big neg effect on the ski experience for everybody, especially for paying customers, at the worst resulting in the shutting down the lifts....sking over.

random_ski_guy
11-28-2006, 01:25 PM
"It is a big deal to me as could see myself in the position that the employees were in, in the future. Many make sacrifices (choices really) where the mitigating factor is the quality of life/lifestyle of living in a resort community. You take that part away, (albeit temporarily) and you take away the thing that gives people the satisfaction of having made the decision to live in that environment.

When one makes the choice to have a lifestyle based on things other than pure financial gain, the other things (skiing, status in the community, etc) become part of your "self worth". It has value to you, more than the monetary compensation. If you take that away, I can see where one would feel they are a "second class citizen". By keeping the employees off the mountain, a big part of that balance was lost. That is why this was a big deal."

Interesting thoughts here castlerock. If one choses to forgo compensation for lifestyle (which is very respectable) then from time to time one is going to find themselves in these situations where their monetary sacriface/lifestyle is going to put them in a disadvantage (ie free employee skiing vs $35). I guess that is why relocation is such a difficult choice for most (not all). These employees aren't second class citizens, no one is denying them their right to pay $35 dollars to ski. There just isn't enough snow for both the freebies and payors this one past weekend. In the end, when capacity is severely strained, a business has to choose the hard currency over the barter situation.

Hopefully we'll get some snow and this issue can all go away. In the end, SB needs the cash and more importantly to preserve its reputation with those cash paying clients. All the "can do" attitudes and hard work in the world from the large SB employee base can't ever replace the cash need to pay the utility bills, property taxes and upkeep on lifts, groomers, etc. Unless Win can start bartering with those people too.

With much respect.

notorious
11-28-2006, 03:35 PM
we should have stayed out of this issue. I recognize that when decisions have to be made, some will disagree. Given the scarcity of a precious commodity, there is an inherent irritation between haves and have nots. In fact, it was only last Wednesday that I was trapped in my office while many valley people got to ski the first lift-served day of the year. I might have even expressed some jealousy on this forum (although I was really only trying to add to the enjoyment of those who got to ski by reminding them of how we suits envyed them. It's always better when you have something others want. It's a base emotion, but human.) I truly believe that the comments made to me about employee feelings regarding the weekend prohibition were rooted in early season snow fever. Nothing more.

When we irritate our friends, even when it is done for the right reasons (as Win has clearly expressed) it is always gracious to acknowledge our friends feelings and let them know how much we value them.

I would still favor a compensatory employee keg party and would chip in for it, even though excluded from attendance. (My three days of skiing were worth that much to me) I'd even chip in my (borrowed from locals) ski videos from when Egan was still baby- faced.

I feel that we are all part of the same affinity group. We share the same passion. Locals, patrons, management, we are all in this ski karass together. I can see from many of the comments above that the rest of you feel the same way. Win, I hope you understand that our observations stem from respect for your employees, who, after all are our friends. But we also understand the management decisions that have to be made.

Believe me, I'm not complaining about being given ski privileges. (Whether we pay for them or not, we are still privileged)

Tin Woodsman
11-28-2006, 04:00 PM
This is definitely the type of topic Skimrv should be discussing, controversy and hurt feelings or not. I won't express an opinion, b/c as someone who didn't ski yet and isn't an employee, I don't have a dog in the hunt., I'll just say I can see both sides of the issue and someone is bound to lose out no matter what SV decided.

I believe that no mater what Win and Co decide, they've built up a sifficient reservoir of goodwill so that people will give them the benefit of the doubt.

HowieT2
11-28-2006, 04:10 PM
IMHO- we must all be suffering the warm weather blues. How can anyone truly be upset about not getting out for two trails and downloading?
One good snowstorm and everyone will be whistling zippy de do dah :P

castlerock
11-28-2006, 04:17 PM
we should have stayed out of this issue. I recognize that when decisions have to be made, some will disagree. Given the scarcity of a precious commodity, there is an inherent irritation between haves and have nots. In fact, it was only last Wednesday that I was trapped in my office while many valley people got to ski the first lift-served day of the year. I might have even expressed some jealousy on this forum (although I was really only trying to add to the enjoyment of those who got to ski by reminding them of how we suits envyed them. It's always better when you have something others want. It's a base emotion, but human.) I truly believe that the comments made to me about employee feelings regarding the weekend prohibition were rooted in early season snow fever. Nothing more.

When we irritate our friends, even when it is done for the right reasons (as Win has clearly expressed) it is always gracious to acknowledge our friends feelings and let them know how much we value them.

I would still favor a compensatory employee keg party and would chip in for it, even though excluded from attendance. (My three days of skiing were worth that much to me) I'd even chip in my (borrowed from locals) ski videos from when Egan was still baby- faced.

I feel that we are all part of the same affinity group. We share the same passion. Locals, patrons, management, we are all in this ski karass together. I can see from many of the comments above that the rest of you feel the same way. Win, I hope you understand that our observations stem from respect for your employees, who, after all are our friends. But we also understand the management decisions that have to be made.

Believe me, I'm not complaining about being given ski privileges. (Whether we pay for them or not, we are still privileged)

I have quoted this entire post because I agree whole heartedly with it.
I'm glad I didn't have to make the decision
I'll chip in for the keg too

Bubba
11-28-2006, 04:19 PM
All I can say is that the empoyees I know did not feel like "second class citizens". Some were alittle bummed but understood and some said " only two trails and downloading, no thanks, I can wait". One told me she was pissed cause now she has no good excuse to not work in the yard.

I truly believe that if employees and comps were skiing the snow coverage would have deteriated(sic) quickly to a point that at the very least it would have a big neg effect on the ski experience for everybody, especially for paying customers, at the worst resulting in the shutting down the lifts....sking over.


Exactly.

I can't remember a time that employees were allowed to ski on the openning Saturday. I'd rather not be there anyway. Why stand in line all day when mid-week we have the Mt to ourselves? I DID get to ski this weekend because I was working(and yes, it was awesome), but I wouldn't be upset if I hadn't been able to. It's a buisiness.
My wife was a little dissapointed but, she'll probably still get in more ski days than most of the people reading this.

Thanks for the offer of the keg Notorious but there really is no need. Although, if you're buying, I guess the least I could do is show up and help. :wink:

djspookman
11-28-2006, 04:27 PM
As was said earlier, this type of thing happens at other resorts and I think makes perfect sense. While it definately sucks for the employee or employee family member, its fair to the paying customer.

When I was younger, my mom worked at Smuggs so I got an employee family pass, and later on, I started working there and got my employee seasons pass. All employees or employee family pass holders were restricted on early season skiing until a certain number of trails were open, as not to crowd the slopes. It definately sucked, but it made sense-keep the paying customer happy! (with less crowds and a quality skiing experience)

Dave

Strat
11-28-2006, 06:36 PM
FWIW Stowe had the same policy this weekend - just thought I'd mention it.

gotamagal
11-30-2006, 04:42 PM
Also weighing in on a touchy subject...but as a former employee of a few resorts (Sugarloaf, Stowe, Sugarbush and a few others to remain nameless...) the employees should also have the best interest of the mountain at heart. Sure, it's a bummer to be told that you shouldn't ski, but common sense should dictate that in minimal conditions, the priority should go to the guest...and the employees should support that. Grumbling in public serves no purpose except to make people think that the team spirit is being let down. With that said, keep those fingers crossed for snow and then there will be no issue.

Plowboy
12-02-2006, 12:27 PM
:P :arrow: http://www.freeskier.com/freeskier/news.php?news_id=710