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09-29-2006, 12:05 PM
I started a similar thread on AZ way back when, but I thought it might be interesting to see the die-hard Bush fan's take on it. From strictly a skiing aspect (cuz that's all any of us really care about), which is better, Sugarbush or Sugarloaf? I haven't skied Stowe, Jay or Whiteface yet, but for me the two "sugars" are the best skiing the East has to offer. I struggle deciding which I like better. I really need to spend some more time at each to make an informed decision. I think if you consider MRG as well as Sugarbush, the MRV easily beats out the mighty Loaf. Anyway, feel free to hash it out...

Lostone
09-29-2006, 03:12 PM
I think I might have answered this over in the Zone, back then.

I've only been to the loaf 3 times and it was the the second and third years of skiing. I don't have a good memory of it, (or much of anything else, back then. :roll: :wink: ) but, the second time, I went to Saddleback and liked that a lot better. I felt the loaf was much more commercialized.

I almost went back a couple of years ago, but there was a big rainstorm, just before the weekend. Their site and snow phone said it was good, but one of the locals on their chat board described it as "a vertical frozen lake"... :shock:

4.5 hour drive for "a vertical frozen lake"? I didn't go, but may, at some point. Had I gone, and experienced the lake... I'd never go back.

madskier6
09-29-2006, 10:07 PM
Like Lostone, it's been quite a few years since I've skied the Loaf. I do have very good memories of it, however. Sugarloaf is a great mountain with some really good and challenging terrain. I skied there quite a bit during college in the 1980's. I went to UMaine in Orono so it was the "go to" place. They don't get quite as much snow as Sugarbush, however.

My vote is for the 'Bush because of the consistently better snow conditions and for my current situation, better location. I can get to Sugarbush in about 3 hours whereas the Loaf would be 5 and half to 6 hours. With the lake effect snows coming off Lake Champlain and the closer location, the 'Bush is clearly superior for me. More powder days, Castlerock and the glades at Sugarbush rock. But Sugarloaf is also a great mountain. I hope to hit it again soon under good conditions. Maybe this year??

ski_resort_observer
09-29-2006, 11:08 PM
I have thought about this and very word/thing that has the word sugar in it is a good thing like:

Sugarbush
Sugarloaf
Sugarbowl
Sugarhouse
"hey, Sugar"
"oh, sugar, sugar" ok an excemption
sugar snap
sugar cone
sugar corn snow
Sugar Daddy(candy bar)
Sugar Ray
maple sugar
sugarshack

anymore......?

Bubba
09-30-2006, 05:20 AM
I have thought about this and very word/thing that has the word sugar in it is a good thing like:

Sugarbush
Sugarloaf
Sugarbowl
Sugarhouse
"hey, Sugar"
"oh, sugar, sugar" ok an excemption
sugar snap
sugar cone
sugar corn snow
Sugar Daddy(candy bar)
Sugar Ray
maple sugar
sugarshack

anymore......?




...sugar magnolia
gimme some sugar
sugar, aww honey honey, you are my candy girl(what ever happened to the Archies?)

Bubba
09-30-2006, 05:22 AM
Sugarloaf?
You mean that little mountain off West Hill Rd?

noski
09-30-2006, 11:18 AM
Sugar on Snow..... That's a win-win

skiladi
09-30-2006, 11:30 AM
Been to the loaf many times. Before we bought our condo at the 'bush we would rent there every January for white,white world week and went to a couple reggae fests also. Good times! But the drive from seacoast NH stinks. And Vermont is prettier. Maine coast is a jewel but Vt. Mts. are sweet. Not so great on dates but 6-7 years ago they stayed open until May 1st and I was tech then so a lot was free...makes the drive easier to take. ; }Anyway , the freakin' snowfields were still going strong. With a little foresight like a water or a camelbak and a cereal bar you just go up once and don't come down to the base until you're beat cause it rapidly turned to waterskiing but I'll never forget the soft cream on the fields darting between the tiny pines like a glade for gnomes. Sunglasses , t-shirts. Sweet. Every area has its own character(and characters) and you make your own fun but overall I have to love Sugarbush.

Geoff
10-15-2006, 07:27 PM
I agonize over this one. After 25 years at Kmart and 14 as a property owner, it's time to move on. I live in Portsmouth, NH so Sugarbush and Sugarloaf are equidistant. Relative to my weekly Kmart mayhem, both are friendly, low-key places.
Here are my pros and cons:

Sugarloaf pros:
Much more ski-in/ski-out property and at far lower prices
No Act 68. Property taxes are what they used to be in Vermont resort towns 10 years ago.
The snow fields
A number of long classic new england runs
It's very far north so it gets somewhat less rain than Vermont
There is no Act 250 so the resort can expand terrain if they get the skier visits to justify it

Sugarloaf cons:
It's owned by ASC so it has all the penny pinching negative baggage that goes along with being owned by a near-bankrupt parent company
Cheap season passes cause weekend crowding. ...this is unlikely to last beyond the death of ASC.
The mountain is very prone to being wind scoured and the whole place can end up on wind hold fairly frequently.
There's some risk that a replacement owner after the ASC bankrupcy will be worse than today (hard to believe).

Sugarbush pros:
Castlerock
Lots of good classic new england runs and tree skiing
More acres than Sugarloaf though you can ski them all at Sugarloaf without riding a shuttle or taking a connecting HSQ to nowhere.
Somewhat more natural snow than Sugarloaf. 250"+ instead of 230".
Proximity to Burlington.
The nearby restaurant and bar scene is marginally better than Sugarloaf
Mad River as a nearby option, Stowe won't kill you to day trip
Kmart is only an hour for early and late skiing

Sugarbush cons:
Real estate is more expensive due to accessiblity from New York and Connecticut
Act 68 makes property taxes very high
The resort is somewhat busier than Sugarloaf... particularly on weekends. Sugarloaf only did 310K skier visits last year.
Minimal slopeside housing stock. The new stuff is pricey. The old stuff is quite dated.

If Vermont abolished the school tax, it'd be a no-brainer. The more-expensive housing prices and much more expensive property tax are enough of a negative to push me out of Vermont completely. If I'm missing something, I'd love to be corrected.

Lostone
10-15-2006, 08:33 PM
If I'm missing something, I'd love to be corrected.

You forgot that I'm at Sugarbush. :D

Oh, wait... You were looking for pros? :roll: :wink:

What I would say is that the atmosphere in the valley is worlds from K-mart. You won't find an easier place to feel welcome.

As for the taxes, two things:
1) I have a friend with a second home in NH. When we lived in Mass, she said her NH taxes were killing her. I haven't asked if, now that she's moved her primary home to NH, whether her rate on the second home is better. I'll try to remember to ask, when I email her, next.

B) I recently found my tax bill for my place in Mass, for the last year I was there. I was in a hurry, and put it aside, after a not that quick glance Now it is hiding, and I can't seem to find it. What I believe I saw, was that the Mass property tax was significantly higher than the Vermont one, with the school tax included.

Like I say, I'm determined to find out where the fool (That would be me. :roll: ) put it, and get a true ratio.

III) Nobody likes to pay taxes, but mine come to right around 2 months of what I pay for health insurance, meaning they are not as big a factor as people believe. Quality of life is (IMNATHO) a much bigger factor. And we have quality of life by the bucketful. 8)

Oops... That was more than two things. :oops: :wink:

Geoff
10-15-2006, 09:50 PM
If I'm missing something, I'd love to be corrected.

You forgot that I'm at Sugarbush. :D

Oh, wait... You were looking for pros? :roll: :wink:

What I would say is that the atmosphere in the valley is worlds from K-mart. You won't find an easier place to feel welcome.

As for the taxes, two things:
1) I have a friend with a second home in NH. When we lived in Mass, she said her NH taxes were killing her. I haven't asked if, now that she's moved her primary home to NH, whether her rate on the second home is better. I'll try to remember to ask, when I email her, next.

B) I recently found my tax bill for my place in Mass, for the last year I was there. I was in a hurry, and put it aside, after a not that quick glance Now it is hiding, and I can't seem to find it. What I believe I saw, was that the Mass property tax was significantly higher than the Vermont one, with the school tax included.

Like I say, I'm determined to find out where the fool (That would be me. :roll: ) put it, and get a true ratio.

III) Nobody likes to pay taxes, but mine come to right around 2 months of what I pay for health insurance, meaning they are not as big a factor as people believe. Quality of life is (IMNATHO) a much bigger factor. And we have quality of life by the bucketful. 8)

Oops... That was more than two things. :oops: :wink:

Let's stick with real numbers, OK?

Here is the State of Vermont tax rate list broken down by town for residential and non-residential propertly:
http://www.state.vt.us/tax/pdf.word.excel/pvr/schooltaxrates.pdf

Here's the same for New Hampshire:
http://www.revenue.nh.gov/property_tax/2005/2005taxrates.rtf

Here's the same for Carrabassett Valley, ME:
http://www.carrabassettvalley.org/localgovt/assessor.asp

Vermont set the school tax rate for 2006/2007 at $14.40 per thousand of valuation for vacation homes and commercial property

My tax rate at Killington is $17.93 per thousand of valuation.

The tax rate in Warren is a whopping $23.55/thousand for vacation homes.

The tax rate in Carrabassett Valley, Me is $6.40 per thousand of valuation which is what Killington was 10 years ago.

On a $500K chunk of real estate, Vermont sucks $10 grand out of you each and every year. No thanks.

I live in Portsmouth, NH in that "high tax" place. My tax rate is $17.60 per thousand which is lower than I pay at Killington.

We also own property in Moultonborough, NH where the tax rate is a Carrabassett Valley-like $6.79 per thousand.

Lostone
10-15-2006, 10:31 PM
Doesn't sound like you are all that agonized about the decision.

And like I said, when I get the old Mass bill, I'll give a comparison to what their rate is. What are you paying in Portsmouth?

castlerock
10-16-2006, 07:27 AM
The resort is somewhat busier than Sugarloaf... particularly on weekends. Sugarloaf only did 310K skier visits last year.
Minimal slopeside housing stock. The new stuff is pricey. The old stuff is quite dated.


These two are worth discussion. Probably the first assertion more than the second.

I'm not sure I agree with the "busier" on weekends hypothesis. Skier visits are one thing, but lift lines and trail crowding are what "busier" really means to me. I don't have recent Sugarloaf experience, but over the past 5 seasons, one of my favorite things about Sugarbush has been the lack of liftlines. Remember that Sugarbush spreads their skier visits over two mountains, with multiple sub areas included. Yes we don't have the snowfields, but the woods, MRG and the Slidebrook, provide significant off piste challenge. In additon, for late season skiing, the past several seasons, North has ben open through the end of April, well overlapping Tuckerman season.

As for the realestate, I really can't argue too much. The price of the "Old stuff" has more than doubled in the past 4 years. But at least in my development (Castlerock, hence my alias), the majority of the units are renovated or are being done. That is where value is available. (in renovating). By the new stuff, I haven't paid much attention to the Clay brook, as I'm not interested in paying for the "Deer Valley" experience, with people available 24X7 to wipe my nose when I come in from skiing. I'm not sure what is really out there. I do know that the general scarceness of slopeside property will help support the value of what is there.

Geoff
10-16-2006, 09:05 AM
The resort is somewhat busier than Sugarloaf... particularly on weekends. Sugarloaf only did 310K skier visits last year.
Minimal slopeside housing stock. The new stuff is pricey. The old stuff is quite dated.


These two are worth discussion. Probably the first assertion more than the second.

I'm not sure I agree with the "busier" on weekends hypothesis. Skier visits are one thing, but lift lines and trail crowding are what "busier" really means to me. I don't have recent Sugarloaf experience, but over the past 5 seasons, one of my favorite things about Sugarbush has been the lack of liftlines. Remember that Sugarbush spreads their skier visits over two mountains, with multiple sub areas included. Yes we don't have the snowfields, but the woods, MRG and the Slidebrook, provide significant off piste challenge. In additon, for late season skiing, the past several seasons, North has ben open through the end of April, well overlapping Tuckerman season.

As for the realestate, I really can't argue too much. The price of the "Old stuff" has more than doubled in the past 4 years. But at least in my development (Castlerock, hence my alias), the majority of the units are renovated or are being done. That is where value is available. (in renovating). By the new stuff, I haven't paid much attention to the Clay brook, as I'm not interested in paying for the "Deer Valley" experience, with people available 24X7 to wipe my nose when I come in from skiing. I'm not sure what is really out there. I do know that the general scarceness of slopeside property will help support the value of what is there.

OK. I'll give Sugarbush the edge in weekend crowding. I think I'd already captured the MRG advantage. Sugarloaf has an awful lot of tree skiing so the slidebrook terrain advantage is somewhat offset.

The extra week or so at the beginning of the season and several weeks at the end are a big tick in favor of Sugarbush.

I'm actually looking for a ski-in/ski-out house rather than a condo. I'm not aware that such an animal exists at Sugarbush.

ski_resort_observer
10-16-2006, 09:21 AM
The resort is somewhat busier than Sugarloaf... particularly on weekends. Sugarloaf only did 310K skier visits last year.
Minimal slopeside housing stock. The new stuff is pricey. The old stuff is quite dated.


These two are worth discussion. Probably the first assertion more than the second.

I'm not sure I agree with the "busier" on weekends hypothesis. Skier visits are one thing, but lift lines and trail crowding are what "busier" really means to me. I don't have recent Sugarloaf experience, but over the past 5 seasons, one of my favorite things about Sugarbush has been the lack of liftlines. Remember that Sugarbush spreads their skier visits over two mountains, with multiple sub areas included. Yes we don't have the snowfields, but the woods, MRG and the Slidebrook, provide significant off piste challenge. In additon, for late season skiing, the past several seasons, North has ben open through the end of April, well overlapping Tuckerman season.

As for the realestate, I really can't argue too much. The price of the "Old stuff" has more than doubled in the past 4 years. But at least in my development (Castlerock, hence my alias), the majority of the units are renovated or are being done. That is where value is available. (in renovating). By the new stuff, I haven't paid much attention to the Clay brook, as I'm not interested in paying for the "Deer Valley" experience, with people available 24X7 to wipe my nose when I come in from skiing. I'm not sure what is really out there. I do know that the general scarceness of slopeside property will help support the value of what is there.

OK. I'll give Sugarbush the edge in weekend crowding. I think I'd already captured the MRG advantage. Sugarloaf has an awful lot of tree skiing so the slidebrook terrain advantage is somewhat offset.

The extra week or so at the beginning of the season and several weeks at the end are a big tick in favor of Sugarbush.

I'm actually looking for a ski-in/ski-out house rather than a condo. I'm not aware that such an animal exists at Sugarbush.

Your right there is not much ski in/ski on at the Bush. Luckily the construction of Claybrook has improved that picture. There are a few house above Sugarbush Village which are accessible via the Way Home trail. Getting back on trail is alittle trickier in that the Out to Lunch trail which goes along lower Sugarbush Village has no snomaking so until there is a bunch of natural snow you have to walk thru the covered bridge and a short hike to ski on.

On the other side South Village is a cluster of free standing homes and is somewhat accessable thru the woods via the Racers Edge trail and there is a trail back to the base at the lower north end corner of South Village.

Bubba
10-16-2006, 11:12 AM
Sugarloaf has an awful lot of tree skiing so the slidebrook terrain advantage is somewhat offset.




Slidebrook is just a drop in the bucket.

freeheel_skier
10-17-2006, 07:00 AM
Slidebrook is just a drop in the bucket.[/quote]


DITTO