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Tin Woodsman
05-03-2006, 11:11 AM
I thought I'd start a catch-all thread for the summer where people can stop in and make a suggestion regarding realistic (financially, environmentally, etc..) ideas to enhance SB, be it winter or summer. While I'm sure some of these thoughts will be covered by the impending answers to the AZ Ski Area Challenge for SB, there will always be a lot of other ideas that don't get mentioned.

I'll start it off with one I was thinking about recently. When I skied at Mammoth about 6-7 years ago, I recall getting off of Chair 22 for the first time and being confronted with a massive metal gate. It turns out that this contraption was designed to block the wind screaming over the Sierra Crest from shutting down a key lower mountain lift, and it could be raised or lowered into place as necessary. Therefore, given the customer service and financial implications of putting lifts on windhold (not many day tickets sold I'm sure), has SB explored the possibility of placing some sort of fixed or maneuverable gate/wind fence in place so as to enable Super Bravo, Heaven's Gate, GMX and Summit to operate on windy days. Given that the toughest winds almost always come out of the NW in the wake of a front, it would seem feasible from an engineering perspective. I suppose environmentally (and with the LT folks) that might be a different issue. But has the idea at least been explored. Imagine what a huge competitive advantage you'd have if you could continue to operate on the majority of your terrain during those windy days when every high elevation lift north of K-Mart is closed (with the possible exception of MRG's Single).

ski_resort_observer
05-03-2006, 11:42 AM
Hmmmm....sounds both interesting and expensive. Could you define "massive", how big is this thing? Could it be used as a mountaintop climbing wall in the summer?

In Wyoming you have these huge snow fences built along hundreds of miles of I80. Everyone always wondered if they really worked but one would like to assume that if they didn't help they would not keep building them. The wind along tthe southern part of Wyoming is unreal.

Tin Woodsman
05-03-2006, 12:46 PM
Hmmmm....sounds both interesting and expensive. Could you define "massive", how big is this thing? Could it be used as a mountaintop climbing wall in the summer?

In Wyoming you have these huge snow fences built along hundreds of miles of I80. Everyone always wondered if they really worked but one would like to assume that if they didn't help they would not keep building them. The wind along tthe southern part of Wyoming is unreal.
I'm thinking it was about 15 feet high or so, give or take. This was a mechanical beast that could swing up and down, so I doubt they wanted anyone climbing on it for a variety of reasons.

shady
05-03-2006, 07:31 PM
Winter suggestions:
Any future replacement of Heaven's Gate would be nice to feature an actual summit station. It's a pain to get from the unloading station, up to Organgrinder or Jester, regardless of on skis or a snowboard. There appears to be enough room up at the top for an unloading station. Any replacement of the Valley House double should eliminate the overhead switchback move. It's quite a traffic jam coming down the VH traverse and hitting the VH unload. Then it quickly widens out just after the lift. Is there enough room to move the main trail to the skier's right, with a traditional unloading area?

Summer suggestions:
How 'bout offering chairlift rides and lift serviced mtn biking? Imagine a ride on the Slide Brook in early October, at the peak of foliage season? I guess you'd need to run two lifts. Then how bout just running either the Bravo or the GMX each weekend? Other resorts offer this. If you go to the bush web page and click on hiking or biking, the only mention given is to areas off the mountain where you can do this. Why not promote it right at the mountain?

-shady

Lostone
05-03-2006, 08:30 PM
I think it would be very difficult to get anything on the ridge top. The Gondola used to go to the top, but I've heard they had to agree to put Heaven's Gate below in order to be able to put it in.

As for the chairlifts for rides or bikes, they did that for a while. I remember wondering how they made money, with the amount of traffic they had. (What happens if you build it and they don't come?)

Still, they ran the lifts on July 4th weekend, and it was very busy. So we know there is a figure somewhere between 1 and every weekend. :roll: :lol:

Also, that is where it hurts them to not have a lift to the top. Still, the hike from Super Bravo to the observation deck is not bad at all.

I would think that if they were going to run a lift, it would have to be the GMX, this year. Way too much going on.

Just my $.023

.

skibum1321
05-04-2006, 06:45 AM
In regards to the biking, there are no trails at Sugarbush to the best of my knowledge. They would need to spend time and $$ to cut some singletrack. They would also need to invest in bikes for a bike rental shop and so on. Kmart is the big destination for lift-serviced mtn biking in VT and I see it as staying that way. There is some great mountain biking in the MRV area, though - especially in Waterbury (which is outside the valley, but close enough).

noski
05-04-2006, 08:13 AM
I have had this discussion with Bob and Win. (win- correct me if you need to here) They would be open to running a lift for Mtn Biking- BUT they are looking to the private sector to "run" the operation. An outfit that would monitor comings & goings, deal with safety, garbage(?), respect of the terrain, maps/designated areas.

ahm
05-04-2006, 09:21 AM
The valley has tons of great mountain biking, but you actually need to go look around for it. Start in the entire section bordered by German flats, access road and Rt 100/17. This should provide some. After that, look around. Most mountain bikers should be able to find the trails. The great thing about riding is going in search of trails, you get a great ride as you are hunting around and riding up and down looking for and sampling trails. You can always get a valley map which shows the Phen(sp) basin trails etc. There's some nice riding up there as well. Slidebrook lift in Oct: Can't do it due to the agreement with the Forest Service as the lift accesses bear terrain. HG going to the summit--it's a pain to get to OG etc. Last time I checked, the sport did involve just a wee bit of exercise. I really don't find getting "up to" OG all that hard. The slight uphill gets those muscles ready following the HG ride up, so you can buzz down OG. AHM.

ski_resort_observer
05-04-2006, 09:33 AM
IMHO the mountain biking failure at the Bush was mostly due to lack of effort and resources. In the late 90's the Bush was open to lift served mountain biking. Used the Super Bravo lift and the comment I heard most was that the trail system was lame. I think there was basically two main trails down. Crissports was open for rentals and repairs.

The mountain bike races the Bush hosted were a blast to be involved with, not as a participant but as a Bush employee volunteering my time off to help pull it off. Watching bikers negotiate the rock section in the middle of Eden was fun.

Then the lift and shop was only open on weekends, no more races...you know the rest of the story. If done right I think it can at least pay for itself while bringing potential customers to the mountain. Maybe they like the place so much they buy a unit at Claybrook...cha-ching. :D

Okay, maybe I am getting ahead of myself here but it would be great cause the base area in the summer is like a ghost town now, excluding the construction of course. Check out Smuggs in the summer....that place is hopping. Maybe being that busy would not be a good thing but some activity in the base area would be better than none. Thankfully, the Bush has a great golf course.

noski
05-04-2006, 09:45 AM
I hear you, ahm, but like the much-tolerated skiing gapers, there are those visitors who think Mountain Biking is riding along Waitsfield Common. Dirt road=mountain biking. I know that those who truly are MB enthusiasts don't-need-no-stinkin-lift to get them where they want to go. I have to work toward finding that happy medium- give just enough to satisfy the enthusiasts- and giving them tools to take themselves to the next level, but not scare away the wanna-be's.

Lostone
05-04-2006, 10:13 AM
Check out Smuggs in the summer....that place is hopping.

This is why I was enthusiastic about their starting the summer adventure camp a couple years ago. Seems it didn't have the participation rate to ensure its continuation?

I still think it is a necessity. It brings people up to stay in the area for the majority of the summer That is good for the mountain and the area. :wink:

Take a drive up to Smuggs and look around. I was amazed!

And go by way of 108! :wink:

castlerock
05-04-2006, 11:12 AM
There has to be a way to enhance (clean, trim, etc) the off trail skiing in cooperation with the Forest Service. There just has to.

And as for the 5 vertical feet "climb" from the top of Heaven's gate, you've got to be kidding. It is three skates on skis, or a quick run up with a board.

Strat
05-04-2006, 06:51 PM
Regarding Singletrack on the Mountain:

There was/is some established singletrack for a race that went on a few years back, I can't exactly remember when or where but I know there was a section that ran between the bottom of Hot Shot and the bottom of Sleeper, and a section between Coffee Run and the Mall... I only remember it vaguely but I know there was something...

shady
05-04-2006, 07:04 PM
I guess what I meant to ask was whether you can go ahead and hike or bike the trails yourself during the summer. Would you get kicked out?

The "hike" from Heaven's Gate over to the top isn't that bad, but I thought, as simply a suggestion, if that lift were ever to be replaced, if it were possible to "kill two birds with one stone", not replace the lift solely to eliminate the climb.

-shady

smootharc
05-05-2006, 07:36 AM
....sort of shows why I lament in the SB thread on AlpineZone the lack of solid information regarding trails, access, times of year to avoid, ownership sensitivity, etc. which would hopefully be detailed somewhere. I would think here would be best.....

http://www.madriverriders.com/mountain.html

But the information is somewhat limited with regard to specifics. Searching around for terrain is fun....but knowledge allows the biking community to peacefully coexist with non-biking interests and not accidentally or otherwise do things that get people's feathers ruffled....and subsequently access restricted so everyone loses.

I think a detailed valley mountain biking map would be a best seller if ever put out. You can cobble together a bit here and a trail there with existing maps, but something detailed would be great.

atkinson
05-05-2006, 08:54 AM
The information about mtbiking in the Valley has been hard to share for a variety of reasons, but that is changing. Stark Mountain Bikes (496-4800) should have a map soon and the MRR site is also going to have more maps and descriptions in the next month or so.

The amount of work going into the trails this year is enormous, far more than I've seen in all the years I've been involved. Currently, the trails in Camel's HumpSF/ Tucker Hill/ Eurich Pond area (German Flats/Access Rd./RT100/17), Dennyland (Valley View in Waitsfield), Center Fayston and Moretown have all seen attention and the season is just getting going.

As for the trails on the mountain, they have not had any maintenance in a few years and are not currently legal, because of USFS regulations. The workroads are a grey area, but they are not that much fun to ride in either direction, unless you love pain. Some people do and I think these should be open for the few that can actually climb them. The impacts are negligible.

I've been trying to convince Win and Adam to work on some terrain over at Mount Ellen and start slow with limited lift access, probably on Sunny D to start, then maybe GMX. (This has worked very well at Bolton, which arguably has the best lift-served operation in the New England now.) This weekend, JHammond mentioned to me that he was tasked with moving forward on some of this. So good news all around.

Keep an eye on the Valley Reporter for more updates as the season progresses.

John

shady
05-08-2006, 06:06 PM
thanks for the info. i was curious since several years ago i remember doing some hiking and saw bike trail signs along (perhaps) sleeper at lincoln peak, and wondered if the trails were open. guess that answers my question. thanx!

Lostone
05-09-2006, 10:13 AM
I don't think there were any trails of Sleeper. If you saw signs there, they might have been for the snowshoe trail.


The bike trails were off Super Bravo. There are a lot of them down by the Spring Fling area. I saw someone running the part that goes thru Eden, last year. I see people up there all the time, but it is a lot of work! :shock:

As for hiking, I'm up there all the time. It is great! 8)

atkinson
05-09-2006, 12:28 PM
Those "snowshoe" trails you refer to next to Sleeper were originally bike trails. There were bike trails in the lower Gatehouse area, off Castlerock Connection, Lower OG, Downspout, Mall, Moonshine, SFling and Snowball, in addition to the downhill trail that went through Eden.

Any other rumors or misinformation I can clear up? ;)

John

Tin Woodsman
05-09-2006, 12:38 PM
Those "snowshoe" trails you refer to next to Sleeper were originally bike trails. There were bike trails in the lower Gatehouse area, off Castlerock Connection, Lower OG, Downspout, Mall, Moonshine, SFling and Snowball, in addition to the downhill trail that went through Eden.

Any other rumors or misinformation I can clear up? ;)

John
While you're asking - where does the work road starting from the 90 degree turn on Village Run end up within Slide Brook? Is that what you are skiing on when you take the official tour after crossing the SBX liftline?

atkinson
05-09-2006, 03:18 PM
The VRun work road does connect at the bottom of the official Tour area, right near the main bridge before the traverse to German Flats Rd. This section of work road was part of the Life-Link Randonnee Race (recreation division.)

John

djspookman
05-11-2006, 11:02 AM
The VRun work road does connect at the bottom of the official Tour area, right near the main bridge before the traverse to German Flats Rd. This section of work road was part of the Life-Link Randonnee Race (recreation division.)

John

I remember that section.. lots of STEEP uphills to get to Village Run from the Slide Brook. I'm still trying to figure out how I got myself up that section!

dave

djspookman
05-11-2006, 11:04 AM
The information about mtbiking in the Valley has been hard to share for a variety of reasons, but that is changing. Stark Mountain Bikes (496-4800) should have a map soon and the MRR site is also going to have more maps and descriptions in the next month or so.

The amount of work going into the trails this year is enormous, far more than I've seen in all the years I've been involved. Currently, the trails in Camel's HumpSF/ Tucker Hill/ Eurich Pond area (German Flats/Access Rd./RT100/17), Dennyland (Valley View in Waitsfield), Center Fayston and Moretown have all seen attention and the season is just getting going.

As for the trails on the mountain, they have not had any maintenance in a few years and are not currently legal, because of USFS regulations. The workroads are a grey area, but they are not that much fun to ride in either direction, unless you love pain. Some people do and I think these should be open for the few that can actually climb them. The impacts are negligible.

I've been trying to convince Win and Adam to work on some terrain over at Mount Ellen and start slow with limited lift access, probably on Sunny D to start, then maybe GMX. (This has worked very well at Bolton, which arguably has the best lift-served operation in the New England now.) This weekend, JHammond mentioned to me that he was tasked with moving forward on some of this. So good news all around.

Keep an eye on the Valley Reporter for more updates as the season progresses.

John

John,

Thanks for the biking info! I wish I was able to help out with trail maintenance last summer when I was living in the Valley. The Valley does have some GREAT singletrack!!!

dave

Tin Woodsman
05-11-2006, 12:08 PM
The VRun work road does connect at the bottom of the official Tour area, right near the main bridge before the traverse to German Flats Rd. This section of work road was part of the Life-Link Randonnee Race (recreation division.)

John

OK -thanks. So then where does the road that you travel on to access the official Slide Brook tour runs end up? Is that what simply ends up winding around back and forth amongst those runs?

Tin Woodsman
05-11-2006, 03:32 PM
Getting back on topic, It would be great if SB's online snow report had a time stamp on it so you could tell when it was updated throughout the day. This winter, you had to employ all of your multimedia skills to try and get an up-to-date picture. Sometimes the snowphone had the info, sometimes online (rarely), and sometime you had to put in a call to Brook and the boys at Mountainside to really get the picture.

As with MRG, I really don't think it's too much to ask to have the report updated at least twice a day with the requisite time stamps. I know it was claimed that this was being done, but the snowfall updates were all over the place this year. Maybe it's different for the Boston folks, but coming up from NYC, I NEED to know on Thursday afternoon how the snow is looking. Otherwise, there's no chance of convincing the wife and friends that it's worth the 5 hours each way.

atkinson
05-12-2006, 08:02 AM
Tinman,

There's too many roads and intersections to detail where they all go. Even the info I gave about the VRun road is incomplete. If you want to know all the roads, ski or hike them.

I still don't have a perfect handle on everything, but I don't worry about it. Suffice it to say, you can't really get lost. Slide Brook is a big bowl that basically funnels to a common exit, how much more do you need to know?

John

win
05-12-2006, 11:33 AM
Tinman,

Point well taken on the time stamp. I will get this done for next year.

Tin Woodsman
05-15-2006, 10:33 PM
Tinman,

Point well taken on the time stamp. I will get this done for next year.

Thanks Win. It's been said before, but responsiveness on this level is just about unprecedented for a resort of your size and I, among others I'm sure, really appreciate it.

Continuing with the Suggestion Box theme, let's talk about food choices in the base lodge. My tastes in eating have often been described as being limited to that which can be purchased at a carnival. In short, I like typcial ski lodge food. At the same time, I can't ignore the general and undeniable trend towards health and wellness. I notice this both as a consumer and as a businessman - understanding this shift is vital for my business. I LOVE the SB chili, burgers, fries, dogs, soup, pizza and everything else. But to my mind, there seems to be a distinct lack of healthier food and beverage choices.

Would it be a realistic possibility to have some sort of stir-fry of the day or a similar healthy food option? And how about those pre-packaged sandwiches lingering int he fridge? Surely SB can offer its customers a more enticing range of sandwich options, can't it?

In addition, might I suggest an expansion of your beverage offerings from the standard soda, sports drink, and hot chocolate (I know there's a bit of milk and apple cider too)? Perhaps this is limited by your main beverage distributor, but it would seem that a wider selection including fresh (or at least not from concentrate) juices, teas, vitamin waters, and smoothie type drinks would be beneficial both for your customers and the bottom line.

Perhaps plans to address all of these issues are in the works for the new lodge. If so, we'd love to hear about it.

win
05-16-2006, 02:43 PM
Yes they are, and I am going to keep you drooling for a couple of months until we roll out the new plans for the new base lodge, the new Castle Rock Pub, the new Timbers Restaurant and the new Allyn's Lodge. I have to keep a bit of anticipation in the air over the summer months! (think you'll like it, though)

The new Hogan's Pub at the Golf course is getting some good early reviews this summer.

Tin Woodsman
05-16-2006, 10:33 PM
Yes they are, and I am going to keep you drooling for a couple of months until we roll out the new plans for the new base lodge, the new Castle Rock Pub, the new Timbers Restaurant and the new Allyn's Lodge. I have to keep a bit of anticipation in the air over the summer months! (think you'll like it, though)

The new Hogan's Pub at the Golf course is getting some good early reviews this summer.

Always keep them coming back for more, folks. Looks like Win knows a thing or three about sales too.