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ski_resort_observer
03-22-2006, 01:53 PM
So I see where the Bush is marketing "the most open trails in the east". This includes, the trails off the Rock, even tho the lift is not spinning. Should trails you have to hike up be counted in your "open trail" count.

I kinda have a problem with this and feel this is counter to what SV has done marketingwise especially when compared to the voodoo marketing of the ASC days. What do you think?

atkinson
03-22-2006, 02:19 PM
Well, it's not up to get to Castlerock, it's across. You can make it in about 20-30 minutes going slow, which darn close to the amount of time you might wait for a chair and spend on the lift ride, plus you get some exercise instead of sitting on your butt getting cold.

Count or no count? Who cares as long as its skiing great? Personally, I'd love to see either HG or CR lifts closed on alternate days so there is always something to hike for. But that's just me.

John

summitchallenger
03-22-2006, 03:00 PM
I think that the lift is not running for other reasons...terrain can't handle the traffic was mentioned.

I do agree though that this is a tough call. Some could see it as deceptive and I would avoid that if at all possible.

This falls under the same vein as to saying Sugarbush has "115 trails open" on a weekday and not running the Slide Brook. Some would assume, and pay for, those 115 trails are accessible without taking off skis. Simple solution: "Sugarbush Mt Ellen has 45 runs, LP has X."

ski_resort_observer
03-22-2006, 03:42 PM
I think that the lift is not running for other reasons...terrain can't handle the traffic was mentioned.

I do agree though that this is a tough call. Some could see it as deceptive and I would avoid that if at all possible.

This falls under the same vein as to saying Sugarbush has "115 trails open" on a weekday and not running the Slide Brook. Some would assume, and pay for, those 115 trails are accessible without taking off skis. Simple solution: "Sugarbush Mt Ellen has 45 runs, LP has X."

Personally, since Slide Brook is a lift and all 115 trails are lift served without SB I don't think that is a problem. Stowe doesn't qualify their trails open that you have to take off your skis if you want to ski Big Spruce from the main mountain nor should they. I think people DO assume that if a trail is open they can access it from a lift not have to hike it.

tumbler
03-22-2006, 03:53 PM
This is a little grey for me. I have no problem with the trails being listed as open while the lift doesn't run. I've made the hike (funny story - a buddy was trying to get us back to a tree run he had done, it was taking a long time, and I jokingly said "if we end up at the top of CR...", and of course 2 minutes later that's where we were. However, I think if you want to market as "the most open trails in the east", then I think you should step up and spin the chair.

The greyness gets greyer, depending on the media...I think it's OK to note on their website that they have "the most open trails in the east", but wouldn't want to see/hear that claim in an email/radio ad. Call me wishy-washy I guess.

Lostone
03-22-2006, 08:38 PM
Interesting question. :?

I'm kinda ambivalent. I can see where some people might be upset with trails being listed that are not lift accessible.

On the mountain's side, they are patrolling the area and there is a separate listing for lifts that are closed. It is clearly marked.

Now, I haven't heard this marketing, but it is an odd enough situation to require an asterisk.

And I think it could be sold as ??? trails open, including our famed Castlerock area, which is only available by hiking.

I'm absolutely sure most of the people that hiked over there would rather they were open. And the fact that they are hard to get to... well, all the open trails aren't really accessible to all the people that come up. I know a lot of people it would be funny to see on Moonshine, let alone Ripcord. :roll:

Still, I could see some saying it is unfair to say they are open, when they aren't lift served.

skibum1321
03-23-2006, 07:40 AM
It's cool that they're opening them and not running the lift, but I don't think it should be counted in the overall trail count. It's like when a lift is on windhold and the resort still counts those trails in the daily trail count. Kinda shady if you ask me.

03-23-2006, 08:48 AM
It's cool that they're opening them and not running the lift, but I don't think it should be counted in the overall trail count. It's like when a lift is on windhold and the resort still counts those trails in the daily trail count. Kinda shady if you ask me.
The windhold comparison is a fair analogy for me. I have no problem with them mentioning that Castlerock is open, but it shoudn't be a part of the trail count. 90% of the skiing public expects X number of trails in the ski report to be lift-serviced.

Tin Woodsman
03-23-2006, 09:56 AM
This all brings up the issue which was raised here a few months back - should SB invest in a small snowmaking coverage expansion to cover the in-run to Castlerock and the bottom pitch of Liftline and/or Troll Road so as to extend Castlerock's season and avoid the rock-strewn mess when accessing the lift from Downspout? Obviously this will be a sensitive issue when talking about snowmaking and the Rock int he same sentence, but it don't think this is a lsippery slope. SV is smart enough to know that this would be as far as they should go on CR. I think it would make an appreciable, positive difference in the experience for most people without any adverse impacts to the experience of Castlerock.

03-23-2006, 10:07 AM
SV is smart enough to know that this would be as far as they should go on CR. I think it would make an appreciable, positive difference in the experience for most people without any adverse impacts to the experience of Castlerock.
I agree 1000% If SV didn't appreciate CR for what it is, they never would have installed that double with the chairs spaced out like they did. I'm all for it!

summitchallenger
03-23-2006, 12:52 PM
I think that the lift is not running for other reasons...terrain can't handle the traffic was mentioned.

I do agree though that this is a tough call. Some could see it as deceptive and I would avoid that if at all possible.

This falls under the same vein as to saying Sugarbush has "115 trails open" on a weekday and not running the Slide Brook. Some would assume, and pay for, those 115 trails are accessible without taking off skis. Simple solution: "Sugarbush Mt Ellen has 45 runs, LP has X."

Personally, since Slide Brook is a lift and all 115 trails are lift served without SB I don't think that is a problem. Stowe doesn't qualify their trails open that you have to take off your skis if you want to ski Big Spruce from the main mountain nor should they. I think people DO assume that if a trail is open they can access it from a lift not have to hike it.

I think that the biggest distinction between these examples is that Sugarbush installed the Slide Brook and markets the two areas as one, or it did at one time. Stowe has always had two isolated areas, as has Snow. So when I look at trail maps as an unknowing consumer, and pony up the $60+, I expect that I am going to get that access. Minor point I know, but it still seems like they want to have it both ways--state "we have two interconnected areas with lots of skiing..." and then save $$$$ by not running that lift and forcing folks to do the pre-1995 method: drive between the two.

03-23-2006, 01:25 PM
I think that the lift is not running for other reasons...terrain can't handle the traffic was mentioned.

I do agree though that this is a tough call. Some could see it as deceptive and I would avoid that if at all possible.

This falls under the same vein as to saying Sugarbush has "115 trails open" on a weekday and not running the Slide Brook. Some would assume, and pay for, those 115 trails are accessible without taking off skis. Simple solution: "Sugarbush Mt Ellen has 45 runs, LP has X."

Personally, since Slide Brook is a lift and all 115 trails are lift served without SB I don't think that is a problem. Stowe doesn't qualify their trails open that you have to take off your skis if you want to ski Big Spruce from the main mountain nor should they. I think people DO assume that if a trail is open they can access it from a lift not have to hike it.

I think that the biggest distinction between these examples is that Sugarbush installed the Slide Brook and markets the two areas as one, or it did at one time. Stowe has always had two isolated areas, as has Snow. So when I look at trail maps as an unknowing consumer, and pony up the $60+, I expect that I am going to get that access. Minor point I know, but it still seems like they want to have it both ways--state "we have two interconnected areas with lots of skiing..." and then save $$$$ by not running that lift and forcing folks to do the pre-1995 method: drive between the two.
Let's not forget that it was ASC that installed Slidebrook. I wonder if SV would have if ASC had not...

summitchallenger
03-23-2006, 01:56 PM
I think that the lift is not running for other reasons...terrain can't handle the traffic was mentioned.

I do agree though that this is a tough call. Some could see it as deceptive and I would avoid that if at all possible.

This falls under the same vein as to saying Sugarbush has "115 trails open" on a weekday and not running the Slide Brook. Some would assume, and pay for, those 115 trails are accessible without taking off skis. Simple solution: "Sugarbush Mt Ellen has 45 runs, LP has X."

Personally, since Slide Brook is a lift and all 115 trails are lift served without SB I don't think that is a problem. Stowe doesn't qualify their trails open that you have to take off your skis if you want to ski Big Spruce from the main mountain nor should they. I think people DO assume that if a trail is open they can access it from a lift not have to hike it.

I think that the biggest distinction between these examples is that Sugarbush installed the Slide Brook and markets the two areas as one, or it did at one time. Stowe has always had two isolated areas, as has Snow. So when I look at trail maps as an unknowing consumer, and pony up the $60+, I expect that I am going to get that access. Minor point I know, but it still seems like they want to have it both ways--state "we have two interconnected areas with lots of skiing..." and then save $$$$ by not running that lift and forcing folks to do the pre-1995 method: drive between the two.
Let's not forget that it was ASC that installed Slidebrook. I wonder if SV would have if ASC had not...

Very true Greg. I don't think they would have. Since the sale, they have attacked the SB Express repeatedly as something that "is not used." Well, take it off line as much as they do and I wonder why it is not used :roll:

noski
03-23-2006, 02:01 PM
and then save $$$$ by not running that lift and forcing folks to do the pre-1995 method: drive between the two. point of order....there is free dedicated MadBus service between the two base areas 7 days a week. But I know what you meant.... :wink: (I promise, no sugarcoating here)

tumbler
03-23-2006, 02:13 PM
OK, I'm gonna be bold here: Slidebrook is a gimmick, and it's really not all that useful.

Yes, it will get you from South to North or vice-versa without taking your skis off. If you're having lunch in the Gatehouse, decide you want to ride over at North you have to:
ride Gatehouse chair
ride Slidebrook chair
then you have a choice, but typically if you want to ski you would
ride North Ridge Chair

That's 3 rides before you get to any decent skiing! Add to that fact that the Slide Brook ride can be quite windy/cold, and you've got a potential warmup/pitstop to deal with. I think I'd rather take a shuttle bus - still don't have to take your boots off. I like the view from Slide Brook on a clear warm day, but generally I make a choice - either Norht or South. Can't say I blame SV for not running the chair. Think about the last time you rode it, and try to remember how many people you saw going the other way? I don't think you can blame lack of ridership on the fact that the lift gets closed midweek.

ski_resort_observer
03-23-2006, 04:39 PM
OK, I'm gonna be bold here: Slidebrook is a gimmick, and it's really not all that useful.

Yes, it will get you from South to North or vice-versa without taking your skis off. If you're having lunch in the Gatehouse, decide you want to ride over at North you have to:
ride Gatehouse chair
ride Slidebrook chair
then you have a choice, but typically if you want to ski you would
ride North Ridge Chair

That's 3 rides before you get to any decent skiing! Add to that fact that the Slide Brook ride can be quite windy/cold, and you've got a potential warmup/pitstop to deal with. I think I'd rather take a shuttle bus - still don't have to take your boots off. I like the view from Slide Brook on a clear warm day, but generally I make a choice - either Norht or South. Can't say I blame SV for not running the chair. Think about the last time you rode it, and try to remember how many people you saw going the other way? I don't think you can blame lack of ridership on the fact that the lift gets closed midweek.

I don't think Slidebrook has anything to do with the question about trail count. But since the post has already been hijacked I think SB is both a gimmick and useful to many like myself. I hate the LP base area on a weekend. I love the fact that I can park at North, burn a few calories hiking up to the base area, ski some at North then take the SB, what a ride it is!, ski my favorites at South then back to North without ever having to deal with the chaos that is LP. Plus I love relaxing with a cold one at the end of the day on the deck of GML. But that's me and maybe I am in the minority. While I am bummed it is not running on weekedays I do not begrudge SV at all.

madskier6
03-23-2006, 04:54 PM
I think Slide Brook is neat and all but I don't rely on it to access all 115 trails (or whatever the number is) on any given day. We usually make the decision in the morning which area we're going to ski and then live with that decision all day. I don't think Sugarbush currently markets the mountain as 115 trails that are all accessed without having to get into your car (although maybe ASC used to).

I do think Slide Brook is an interesting ride on appropriate weather days and I have occasionally used it to ski both mountains on the same day. I just don't think it's that big of a deal. On most days, I actually assume that Slide Brook won't be running and plan accordingly.

I do suggest to guests that have never been to Sugarbush that they should ride the Slide Brook to have the experience and take advantage of the views. It's more like an amusement park ride than a chair lift.

I don't think it's phony marketing to claim 115 trails but then not be running Slide Brook. If I ran SV, given the weekday crowds, I wouldn't run Slide Brook during the week either.

win
03-23-2006, 05:20 PM
Interesting question that we can discuss further when we meet on Saturday. Because of the snowfall up high, the skiing on Castle Rock this week was phenomenal. However, the lower part was not. We call a trail open when patrol can be stationed up top and is able to effect rescues safely. Thus, we elected to allow people to hike across rather than not open the Castlerock because we could not get the bottom of the chair open quickly. I do not think that it is misleading to call it open because it is open and patrolled even though the access was via hiking. A number of people had a great time on the Rock this week. Tomorrow we are going to move snow by sled down to the base of Castle Rock in order to open the lift for the weekend. This actually will take several people several hours of work to accomplish. Even with this it is going to be thin at the base, and we probably will only be able to keep The Rock open for the weekend unless we get a lot more snow.

Slide Brook as of today can not run. We have to be able to get snowmobiles into Slide Brook for evacuation, and we are not permitted to run the lift unless we can. As of today that is not possible and we probably need another 4-6" of snow minimum to run it. If we get it and can get in, we will run Slidebrook for the weekend. Slide Brook runs on weekend and holidays whenever conditions allow, and we plan our staffing assuming that it will run on those days. We do not run it on weekdays for a very simple reason. The traffic does not justify it, and we do have the shuttle that runs every half and hour between the two areas.

win

ski_resort_observer
03-23-2006, 09:07 PM
Win

Thanks for taking the time to chime in. When you consider all the ski forums around the net I think it's pretty amazing and maybe even unprecedented when the Owner/President actually reads the content and even participates in the discussion.

freeheel_skier
03-23-2006, 10:51 PM
Win

Thanks for taking the time to chime in. When you consider all the ski forums around the net I think it's pretty amazing and maybe even unprecedented when the Owner/President actually reads the content and even participates in the discussion.

Freaking Ditto!!! :D