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summitchallenger
01-17-2006, 09:28 AM
Since we have a lot of "Armchair Resort Operators" online, :lol: I thought I'd throw this thread out there to see what kind of response we got:

Summit Ventures, owners of Sugarbush, come to you to improve or upgrade Sugarbush. You have no real budget limits except to say that the owners want to be able to have their investment(s) help spur more traffic and to pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time (long term investments are fine). Assume that Act 250 will approve of your plans (but don't get too huge now :wink: ).

Some examples of improvements include:
*New lifts
*New snowmaking
*New terrain
*New lodges
*New condos/etc.

What would you advise them to do? Why?

Be creative on this glum weather week :roll:

smootharc
01-17-2006, 11:47 AM
Slide brook development with a lift going "upways instead of crossways", for a start.

The terrain pod at North above Inverness that's been discussed.

Interconnect high traverse over to Castlerock.

And tons of thin classic, twisty NE trails and glades that seem to be begging to be cut. Castlerock lift could have about 10 rumble like trails spilling off it.

Sure, snowmaking and grooming improvements, why not.

Condo, lodges....they are already doing that plan.

Perhaps free latte's for every 100,000 in vertical clocked.....

Tin Woodsman
01-17-2006, 12:29 PM
1) New, larger Gate House lodge

2) Integrated skier services building

3) More lodging density in the base area on a piece by piece basis as it can be afforded.

4) Removal of Valley House lodge and extension of existing double chair to the true base. No need to increased capacity here! That lift is under-utilized as it is and those trails can't handle the increased skier traffic unless you install snowmaking, which is a BIG no-no on classics like Mall, Twist, and Moonshine.

5) Installation of chairlift and trails above Inverness where the old liftline is. This would spread out traffic at North and give you a lot of options to play with in terms of aspect. Would also provide a warmer area to ski with sun late into the day.

6) Cat track from Castlerock to North Lynx to provide easier access in case of Gate House closure and to keep people out of crowded base area when their presence isn't necessary there.

7) Holistic glade maintenance program ala MRG. The Paradise woods area is a disgrace. Other areas will need help before long. SB can't afford to effectively outsource the creation and maintenance of old and new lines to unorganized bands of uneducated (in forestry) tree skiers.

8) Increased frequency of pick ups at Slide Brook road turn off

9) Creation of cross-walk and turn-off across the street from Slide Brook for North-bound skiers

10) Creation of guided tours and official runs from North into Slide Brook basin

11) Installation of low-energy nozzles on all snowguns

12) Removal of snowmaking system bottlenecks through targeted investments in water capacity (full digging out the snowmaking pond if it hasn't been done) and compressed air so as to increase the upper limit of guns running at once to 125 (a completely arbitrary number pulled out of my rear end)

13) More extensive foodservice options in Allyn's Lodge including more healthy options than just waffles, candy bars, and hot dogs

14) A single, narrow, old school run (no snowmaking) from the top of North Lynx down to somewhere on the Castlerock Connector then continuing down into the ravine before traversing hard left back towards Sleeper.

15) Re-clearing of "Low Road" run to skier's left of Straight Shot at North

16) Burn the development office - nothing more needs to be done

smootharc
01-17-2006, 12:46 PM
....I just can't put my finger on it. Hmmm....um....oh, wait.....I remember now....

....the Lycra-clad liftie chicks, ambassador chicks, ski school chicks,.....

And they should be placed #1 on your list, not #17....

:wink:

P.S. I though MRG's glades were "granola glades", not holistic ones....

djspookman
01-17-2006, 12:55 PM
15) Re-clearing of "Low Road" run to skier's left of Straight Shot at North

Tin-

I'f you look closely, they kinda did do that this past summer. It looks to be much more cleared out than it was last year, although I did ski it last year just fine:) only problem now is the snowmaking building at the bottom of it.


I'd like to see Black Watch trimmed and skiable though..... (at North) I skiied that last year as well, although it was a little hard to follow along the stream towards the bottom:)



As far as the rest of the resort, I'd like to see:

-trails and a couple of low capacity lifts (doubles) in the Slide Brook Basin
-condos/skier services building in the Lincoln Peak area
-more gladed terrain to be developed between Castlerock and North Lynx
-The previously mentioned "above" inverness lift and trail system
-maybe an additional lift/trails above Northway at North
-a larger, more efficient lodge at North
-condos and small village at North base
-a t-bar installed on Snowflake and Cat's Meow just like there used to be waaay back.
-a t-bar starting at the base of Lower FIS into the basin with some new trails/glades accessible by lower FIS or by a few small trails off of Rim Run

dave

Abe Froman
01-17-2006, 01:03 PM
Defnitely build a new base lodge at ME!

Tin Woodsman
01-17-2006, 02:06 PM
I'f you look closely, they kinda did do that this past summer. It looks to be much more cleared out than it was last year, although I did ski it last year just fine:) only problem now is the snowmaking building at the bottom of it.

I'd like to see Black Watch trimmed and skiable though..... (at North) I skiied that last year as well, although it was a little hard to follow along the stream towards the bottom:)

I hadn't noticed that b/c I haven't skied at North since it went top to bottom in mid December. Regardless, more ways to the base from the bottom of North Ridge would be nice.



As far as the rest of the resort, I'd like to see:

-trails and a couple of low capacity lifts (doubles) in the Slide Brook Basin
-condos/skier services building in the Lincoln Peak area
-more gladed terrain to be developed between Castlerock and North Lynx
-The previously mentioned "above" inverness lift and trail system
-maybe an additional lift/trails above Northway at North
-a larger, more efficient lodge at North
-condos and small village at North base
-a t-bar installed on Snowflake and Cat's Meow just like there used to be waaay back.
-a t-bar starting at the base of Lower FIS into the basin with some new trails/glades accessible by lower FIS or by a few small trails off of Rim Run


I left out any development in Slide Brook simply b/c it's 100% unrealistic to expect any lifts and formal trails in there. Also, if you want to get technical, it's not just Act 250 (State of VT) that needs to be satisfied for anything in there, it's the USFS. In short, don't hold your breath.

Also, is the lodge at ME really that crowded that it needs to be replaced? I've never had a problem finding a seat upstairs.

Treeskier
01-17-2006, 02:50 PM
Some of these have will be repeated

1) Lift and trails above Inverness

2) 2nd base lodge w/ housing at the base of lower FIS and a chair up to Glen House

3) I actually do not want to see any lifts in Slidebrook but more bus pick-ups.

4) An Olympic size pool re-built at South close to the Village to bring back the year round use and festive atmosphere of the past when it was there. And open to all.

NOW FOR THE BIG DREAM

5) A lift off the back of North and South so we can ski the west facing slopes. A lodge at the North end so that we can claim to be minutes away from the airport.

6) Continuation of buildings shops and housing to connect the Village to Claybrook

7) A local police force that has a better attitude then the sheriffs. That would watch over our property not just their pockets paid by tickets and DWI's

8) Turn the dug out snowmaking pond (which needs to be done) into a useable swimable lake.

9) Bike path paved from Waitsfield to Warren then up Access RD along the river (a lot less pitch and more beautiful) to South then across to Sugarbush and back to town. With a loop up to Mad River.

djspookman
01-17-2006, 03:01 PM
I'f you look closely, they kinda did do that this past summer. It looks to be much more cleared out than it was last year, although I did ski it last year just fine:) only problem now is the snowmaking building at the bottom of it.

I'd like to see Black Watch trimmed and skiable though..... (at North) I skiied that last year as well, although it was a little hard to follow along the stream towards the bottom:)

I hadn't noticed that b/c I haven't skied at North since it went top to bottom in mid December. Regardless, more ways to the base from the bottom of North Ridge would be nice.

Well that's actually Black Watch if you look at the old maps. Low Road starts about halfway down Straight Shot, and that's the one that looks somewhat cleared



As far as the rest of the resort, I'd like to see:

-trails and a couple of low capacity lifts (doubles) in the Slide Brook Basin
-condos/skier services building in the Lincoln Peak area
-more gladed terrain to be developed between Castlerock and North Lynx
-The previously mentioned "above" inverness lift and trail system
-maybe an additional lift/trails above Northway at North
-a larger, more efficient lodge at North
-condos and small village at North base
-a t-bar installed on Snowflake and Cat's Meow just like there used to be waaay back.
-a t-bar starting at the base of Lower FIS into the basin with some new trails/glades accessible by lower FIS or by a few small trails off of Rim Run


I left out any development in Slide Brook simply b/c it's 100% unrealistic to expect any lifts and formal trails in there. Also, if you want to get technical, it's not just Act 250 (State of VT) that needs to be satisfied for anything in there, it's the USFS. In short, don't hold your breath.

Also, is the lodge at ME really that crowded that it needs to be replaced? I've never had a problem finding a seat upstairs.

per Slide Brook-hey, a man can dream can't he??!! :)

As for the lodge, ever seen me dragging my friend in a wheelchair (he's a sit skiier) up the stairs so he can watch the game after skiing? (or have a seat for lunch?) That building is so out of code its not funny and honestly it would be cheaper in the long run to build a new building right than retrofit it. Heck, they're going to some day, its in the plans (according to Hardy)

Dave

madskier6
01-17-2006, 03:18 PM
I agree with most all of the previous suggestions. Here are my few suggestions:

1) New High Speed Lift (of some sort) for Heavens Gate. That lift is one of the slowest on the mountain that services some of the best terrain on the mountain. That is also one of the coldest rides on the mountain and they need to shorten that ride signfiicantly.

2) New, larger lodge to replace Glen House at North. I know there's not a lot of room at that location on the mountain for a large lodge but Glen House is tiny and is very outdated. Especially since North is open early/late season, they need more capacity there. Early in the season when you have to download on the GMX, it sucks to have to download in order to eat lunch if Glen House is packed.

3) Install a new lift between North Lynx and Castlerock. It looks like there's some great unexploited terrain in there. I know this will never happen but a guy can dream, can't he? Someone else suggested more gladed runs in this area. That would be fine too but a lift with some Castlerock-like runs would be better.

4) Expand food service operations and offerings at Allyn's Lodge (as someone already suggested). This is one of the most underutilized lodges at the entire resort. I would much rather eat lunch there if there were significant offerings, including beer, than ski down to Gatehouse Lodge all the time to eat.

5) More gladed runs between Paradise and Castlerock (near the Church) coming from both Paradise and Castlerock.

6) Expand Inverness to skier's left of Brambles, if terrain is suitable. I'm not sure whether the terrain would be any good but that seems like a whole underdeveloped part of the mountain. I agree with installing the lift above Inverness as others have mentioned but they should do more there.

Listen, I realize most of my suggestions are crazy and will never happen but I thought that was part of the purpose of this thread. Brainstorm some ideas (many of which will never happen) to see what interesting concepts emerge.

Strat
01-17-2006, 03:56 PM
Well that's actually Black Watch if you look at the old maps. Low Road starts about halfway down Straight Shot, and that's the one that looks somewhat cleared


I dunno spook, I'm looking at my old maps and it doesn't seem that Black Watch went any lower than the current Which Way... it seems to end just across from where the start of today's Crackerjack and the slide brook terminus are... what are you using for evidence??

smootharc
01-17-2006, 03:57 PM
NOW FOR THE BIG DREAM

5) A lift off the back of North and South so we can ski the west facing slopes. A lodge at the North end so that we can claim to be minutes away from the airport.

....I thought hallucinagenics were outlawed in this thread...... :lol:

Abe Froman
01-17-2006, 03:57 PM
I'f you look closely, they kinda did do that this past summer. It looks to be much more cleared out than it was last year, although I did ski it last year just fine:) only problem now is the snowmaking building at the bottom of it.

I'd like to see Black Watch trimmed and skiable though..... (at North) I skiied that last year as well, although it was a little hard to follow along the stream towards the bottom:)

I hadn't noticed that b/c I haven't skied at North since it went top to bottom in mid December. Regardless, more ways to the base from the bottom of North Ridge would be nice.



As far as the rest of the resort, I'd like to see:

-trails and a couple of low capacity lifts (doubles) in the Slide Brook Basin
-condos/skier services building in the Lincoln Peak area
-more gladed terrain to be developed between Castlerock and North Lynx
-The previously mentioned "above" inverness lift and trail system
-maybe an additional lift/trails above Northway at North
-a larger, more efficient lodge at North
-condos and small village at North base
-a t-bar installed on Snowflake and Cat's Meow just like there used to be waaay back.
-a t-bar starting at the base of Lower FIS into the basin with some new trails/glades accessible by lower FIS or by a few small trails off of Rim Run


I left out any development in Slide Brook simply b/c it's 100% unrealistic to expect any lifts and formal trails in there. Also, if you want to get technical, it's not just Act 250 (State of VT) that needs to be satisfied for anything in there, it's the USFS. In short, don't hold your breath.

Also, is the lodge at ME really that crowded that it needs to be replaced? I've never had a problem finding a seat upstairs.


Regarding ME base lodge:

I think the lodge is pretty crowded. Especially if you are there on a Sat. Especialy the Bar area. Also, ME base loge is very old. Last year on several occasions there were plumbing issues (pipes bursting no h20, etc.) Also if they are going to continue to run the Vermont Adaptive Snow Sports clinic at ME,
the handicap accessibility must be improved. IMHO the handicap accessability is a joke!

Strat
01-17-2006, 04:10 PM
Oh yeah, I never did my Sim Sugarbush...

Trails above Inverness
Snowflake Poma lift (what did they do with the old one from South? Should be there...)
New Heaven's Gate, Summit at North, both really crucial for tourist impressions...
New Inverness chair, it's painful to ride that thing because I could take 3 runs on GMX in the time I'm on one liftride...
New Village Chair - really crucial for beginners. The speed doesn't even have to increase that much, it would just be nice to be riding a lift that doesn't look like it's going to collapse at any moment...
Terrain in the basin between Gatehouse and Castlerock... whichever brook that is, would be off Castlerock Connection... yes, there is a good sized waterway in there, but you could have some really cool terrain on the sides of the gully...

And then of course my Sugarbush Master Plan Dream Thing...

Development of one big ski area from Lincoln to App Gaps... Sugarbush acquires MRG and develops an area bigger than Killington, all along Lincoln Mountain... the Whistler of the East...

New Base areas on Lincoln Gap Road, West Hill Road, Slide Brook Road, somewhere in the Big Basin... terrain development in the South-facing Mt. Abe basin, the narrowish basin between Lincoln Peak and Mt. Abe, Slide Brook, the entire south facing-ridge between MRG and Mt. Ellen, and Big Basin...

Now THAT would be a ski area...

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: 8)

Tin Woodsman
01-17-2006, 04:37 PM
Re: Black Watch - from the old trial maps I've seen, Black Watch did start pretty much where the base of North Ridge is today.

As for high speed lifts, while I agree on Inverness, I think the suggestions for high speed lifts to the summits are ill-advised. As it is now, people bitch and moan about how often those lifts are on wind hold. The problem would be twice as bad with a detatchable lift up there.

Also, any terrain between Castlerock and North Lynx would have to be designed carefully. That area faces almost due South, so you'd have to have narrow, windy trails and glades only.

smootharc
01-17-2006, 04:45 PM
As for high speed lifts, while I agree on Inverness, I think the suggestions for high speed lifts to the summits are ill-advised. As it is now, people bitch and moan about how often those lifts are on wind hold. The problem would be twice as bad with a detatchable lift up there.

....duh....you'd bulldoze the summits and build impregnable concrete bunker houses connected with those tall metal slat wind fences. The views to the West aren't worth saving anyways.....

Strat
01-17-2006, 05:36 PM
Continuing the Black Watch discussion,

I dunno, I'm looking at the old Glen Ellen maps on my site and they appear to support me... I mean, Black Watch was just the original name for Which Way - it definitely doesn't start at the modern base of North Ridge... I can see how it may have intersected with Straight Shot a few hundred feet down beyond the Crackerjack fork, but it just merged with Straight Shot at that point; there of course was the trail known as Donny Brook that went off of Straight Shot just below the Black Watch intersection that crossed the brook and ended up at the base of Inverness... that trail was of course later integrated into the bottom of Walt's.

Tin Woodsman
01-17-2006, 06:41 PM
Continuing the Black Watch discussion,

I dunno, I'm looking at the old Glen Ellen maps on my site and they appear to support me... I mean, Black Watch was just the original name for Which Way - it definitely doesn't start at the modern base of North Ridge... I can see how it may have intersected with Straight Shot a few hundred feet down beyond the Crackerjack fork, but it just merged with Straight Shot at that point; there of course was the trail known as Donny Brook that went off of Straight Shot just below the Black Watch intersection that crossed the brook and ended up at the base of Inverness... that trail was of course later integrated into the bottom of Walt's.

Ya know, I just checked again and it's hard to read the trail numbers on your first Ellen-only map. The one I was talking about was Donny Brook, not Black Watch.

Strat
01-17-2006, 07:02 PM
Continuing the Black Watch discussion,

I dunno, I'm looking at the old Glen Ellen maps on my site and they appear to support me... I mean, Black Watch was just the original name for Which Way - it definitely doesn't start at the modern base of North Ridge... I can see how it may have intersected with Straight Shot a few hundred feet down beyond the Crackerjack fork, but it just merged with Straight Shot at that point; there of course was the trail known as Donny Brook that went off of Straight Shot just below the Black Watch intersection that crossed the brook and ended up at the base of Inverness... that trail was of course later integrated into the bottom of Walt's.

Ya know, I just checked again and it's hard to read the trail numbers on your first Ellen-only map. The one I was talking about was Donny Brook, not Black Watch.

Alrighty, glad we cleared that up. Right below that first map though, there's a link to a very hi-res version of that map in which all the numbers are readable - maybe I should just make that one the main image?

djspookman
01-17-2006, 08:03 PM
Continuing the Black Watch discussion,

I dunno, I'm looking at the old Glen Ellen maps on my site and they appear to support me... I mean, Black Watch was just the original name for Which Way - it definitely doesn't start at the modern base of North Ridge... I can see how it may have intersected with Straight Shot a few hundred feet down beyond the Crackerjack fork, but it just merged with Straight Shot at that point; there of course was the trail known as Donny Brook that went off of Straight Shot just below the Black Watch intersection that crossed the brook and ended up at the base of Inverness... that trail was of course later integrated into the bottom of Walt's.

Ya know, I just checked again and it's hard to read the trail numbers on your first Ellen-only map. The one I was talking about was Donny Brook, not Black Watch.

Alrighty, glad we cleared that up. Right below that first map though, there's a link to a very hi-res version of that map in which all the numbers are readable - maybe I should just make that one the main image?

My bad guys.. I goofed.. I thought my eyesight was right on, but apparently not! :) I thought I was reading a "15" on that map, but now that I see the link for the higher-res pic, it is a 19 and the trail is Donny Brook.. my bad! Sorry to cause any confusion.. anyway, I would really like to see that trail come back, just for historical sake, plus it was fun to ski last year, and i'm sure it will ski even better once its cleared out more!

dave

summitchallenger
01-18-2006, 07:33 AM
:o Whoa! This thread has taken off! Awesome ideas!

skibum1321
01-18-2006, 08:19 AM
Some of these have will be repeated
3) I actually do not want to see any lifts in Slidebrook but more bus pick-ups.

Totally agree with you there. I don't want to see Slidebrook developed at all. For that matter, I wouldn't want to see anything past Paradise cut and put on the map. A program like what MRG has with Jay Appleton to maintain the woods would be awesome. Give someone a season pass to run it and then give vouchers for day tix to any volunteers. I love going to the Mad River ones a couple times a year. It really helps you learn about the mountain by trudging around the woods before the snow falls.

smootharc
01-18-2006, 09:03 AM
A program like what MRG has with Jay Appleton to maintain the woods would be awesome. Give someone a season pass to run it and then give vouchers for day tix to any volunteers. I love going to the Mad River ones a couple times a year. It really helps you learn about the mountain by trudging around the woods before the snow falls.

There are a few places at the glen where I look and say.....that would be a superb glade, but the nicely spaced, mature, and looking to my untrained eyes healthy trees have a bunch of little sprite trees clogging up the lines. I'm thinking....a few hours and a lopper and that whole zone is a great glade. One easily and publicly viewable one is about 1/4 of the way up the single off to the right and looking back down. It's a small below a green dot traverse (Easy Way, I think) trail and the bottom would feed into, again I think, the edge of Waterfall. Anyways, despite MRG's glade reputation, and their necessary and industry leading tree conservation work, it does seem like there's some pretty nice stuff just kind of sitting there that could be developed that might not compromise forest health.

Thoughts from someone with more understanding than me would be appreciated.

Big Game
01-18-2006, 09:41 AM
Mountainbike freeridey trails. Yeah, not too wintery, but good times.

Snowmaking and grooming at Castlerock. That would be so sweet. Highspeed six-pack lift. Maybe a terrain park too. A gourmet restaurant at the summit serving some funky indo-anglo fusion cuisine at exhorbinant prices. And skis only (no thuggish snowboarders). I kid.

djspookman
01-18-2006, 10:34 AM
Mountainbike freeridey trails. Yeah, not too wintery, but good times.

I really like that idea! I don't think they could do it at South because it's National Forest land, but they could at North! They could run the GMX only and still have plenty of terrain available for biking, and plenty of new singletrack/stunts could be built in the woods.. :)

dave

ski_resort_observer
01-18-2006, 10:57 AM
In the latter 90's the Bush did do mountain biking. Ran the Bravo lift had a few trails back to the base from there. Many of us working at the Bush wanted to expand the mountain biking thing. We even had a mountain biking rental and repair shop open. The Bush's operation had a medicre rep, at best, as a mountain biking center.

We had some big regional mountain biking races during that time. I have lots of photos, none scanned unfortunately. All of us employees helped out and it was alot of fun. I remember one in a downpour, lots of mud. Bruce McCoy was the running the resort then and he was the Starter. At the end of the day he was a funny muddy mess. :lol:

It was a bummer to watch the Bush basically drop mountain biking over a couple of years circa 1999-2001. I think the Bush still has a grand opportunity there. Bring back mountain biking! Assume it was not a money maker and maybe it can work. As always in these matters the Bush has the product....great terrain.

As many haven mentioned doing anything in the Slidebrook Basin is never going to happen but it is fun to dream. :lol:

I too would like to see something done between Castlerock and Heavens Gate. Nothing too big and done with as much respect as possible to all the local stashes. Maybe a compromise would be worked out ie the locals get a big say in what goes in there.

I also would buy Sugarbush Village and make that area more user friendly with the rest of the LP base area with a nice outdoor skating rink.

I guess the Valley House should go but boy do I have alot of memories with that place. One good thing would be that the offices that were moved up there, notebly HR, would hopefully reurn to the Admin Bilding area.

That's my 2 cents.

smootharc
01-18-2006, 11:22 AM
Mountainbike freeridey trails. Yeah, not too wintery, but good times.

I really like that idea! I don't think they could do it at South because it's National Forest land, but they could at North! They could run the GMX only and still have plenty of terrain available for biking, and plenty of new singletrack/stunts could be built in the woods.. :)


The Valley could certainly use a more visible mountain bike "plan", and SB could be a big part of that. These folks are doing something good stuff....

http://www.madriverriders.com/

And the Vermont Mountain Bike Association has this

http://www.vmba.org/maps/cvmapfiles/bigpdf/mapfront.pdf

In a AZ post there was a thought about having a summer mountain bike section, which was rejected, but perhaps on SkiMRV.com it could be nice to have a MTN biking sub-section ????? Thoughts anyone ?

djspookman
01-18-2006, 12:12 PM
In the latter 90's the Bush did do mountain biking. Ran the Bravo lift had a few trails back to the base from there. Many of us working at the Bush wanted to expand the mountain biking thing. We even had a mountain biking rental and repair shop open. The Bush's operation had a medicre rep, at best, as a mountain biking center.

We had some big regional mountain biking races during that time. I have lots of photos, none scanned unfortunately. All of us employees helped out and it was alot of fun. I remember one in a downpour, lots of mud. Bruce McCoy was the running the resort then and he was the Starter. At the end of the day he was a funny muddy mess.

I remember them holding races, I think the big one was called "The Beast of the East" and then when ASC bought them, they had a "Trail 66" race series spread all over their ski resorts. That was back in the heyday of XC racing in New England. There were so many NORBA classified races in VT and NH then, but now there are near none.

I almost entered one of the Beast of the East races, but something came up, then the following year, they weren't having the race anymore.. doh!

dave

djspookman
01-18-2006, 12:13 PM
In a AZ post there was a thought about having a summer mountain bike section, which was rejected, but perhaps on SkiMRV.com it could be nice to have a MTN biking sub-section ????? Thoughts anyone ?

I like that idea! I voted for the mountian bike section at AZ as well!

dave

Tin Woodsman
01-18-2006, 12:16 PM
Mountainbike freeridey trails. Yeah, not too wintery, but good times.

I really like that idea! I don't think they could do it at South because it's National Forest land, but they could at North! They could run the GMX only and still have plenty of terrain available for biking, and plenty of new singletrack/stunts could be built in the woods.. :)


The Valley could certainly use a more visible mountain bike "plan", and SB could be a big part of that. These folks are doing something good stuff....

http://www.madriverriders.com/

And the Vermont Mountain Bike Association has this

http://www.vmba.org/maps/cvmapfiles/bigpdf/mapfront.pdf

In a AZ post there was a thought about having a summer mountain bike section, which was rejected, but perhaps on SkiMRV.com it could be nice to have a MTN biking sub-section ????? Thoughts anyone ?

It hink that's a great idea, but I'd suggest we start it as a thread in the General MRV discussion to guage the interest before expanding it into a sub-forum.

smootharc
01-18-2006, 12:24 PM
It think that's a great idea, but I'd suggest we start it as a thread in the General MRV discussion to guage the interest before expanding it into a sub-forum.

....sounds like a good start.

skibum1321
01-18-2006, 01:19 PM
A program like what MRG has with Jay Appleton to maintain the woods would be awesome. Give someone a season pass to run it and then give vouchers for day tix to any volunteers. I love going to the Mad River ones a couple times a year. It really helps you learn about the mountain by trudging around the woods before the snow falls.

There are a few places at the glen where I look and say.....that would be a superb glade, but the nicely spaced, mature, and looking to my untrained eyes healthy trees have a bunch of little sprite trees clogging up the lines. I'm thinking....a few hours and a lopper and that whole zone is a great glade. One easily and publicly viewable one is about 1/4 of the way up the single off to the right and looking back down. It's a small below a green dot traverse (Easy Way, I think) trail and the bottom would feed into, again I think, the edge of Waterfall. Anyways, despite MRG's glade reputation, and their necessary and industry leading tree conservation work, it does seem like there's some pretty nice stuff just kind of sitting there that could be developed that might not compromise forest health.

Thoughts from someone with more understanding than me would be appreciated.
I think a big reason they don't do more is that they only have a limited amount of time and resources to do the trailwork. They only have about 6 trail days per year so doing more might be tough. There were some new ones developed this year too though...

Tin Woodsman
01-18-2006, 01:34 PM
A program like what MRG has with Jay Appleton to maintain the woods would be awesome. Give someone a season pass to run it and then give vouchers for day tix to any volunteers. I love going to the Mad River ones a couple times a year. It really helps you learn about the mountain by trudging around the woods before the snow falls.

There are a few places at the glen where I look and say.....that would be a superb glade, but the nicely spaced, mature, and looking to my untrained eyes healthy trees have a bunch of little sprite trees clogging up the lines. I'm thinking....a few hours and a lopper and that whole zone is a great glade. One easily and publicly viewable one is about 1/4 of the way up the single off to the right and looking back down. It's a small below a green dot traverse (Easy Way, I think) trail and the bottom would feed into, again I think, the edge of Waterfall. Anyways, despite MRG's glade reputation, and their necessary and industry leading tree conservation work, it does seem like there's some pretty nice stuff just kind of sitting there that could be developed that might not compromise forest health.

Thoughts from someone with more understanding than me would be appreciated.
I think a big reason they don't do more is that they only have a limited amount of time and resources to do the trailwork. They only have about 6 trail days per year so doing more might be tough. There were some new ones developed this year too though...

I think the highly visible nature of those trees is a big reason why they haven't been cleared out yet. I think the crews prefer to work in more out of the way locales.

Schusseur
01-18-2006, 10:34 PM
Question was what do you recommend to Summit ventures as a business plan, not what sort of fantasy you 'd like to see realized. My advice: go the other way. You know you can't get permission to build anything (12 years for the pond?), so your plan can't be a copy of Stowe/Killington/Okemo/Stratton. Can't beat the destination resorts at their own game. They've got deep pockets and business-friendly zoning.

In Vermont there are people who easily drive 20, 30, 50 miles to go skiing for the day. Out of all the families who live within 50 miles of the bush, how many are skier/riders? Lots. Burlington area? Tons.

Compete on price and attract as many day skiers as you can. Make it attractive for them by offering an obvious lift ticket bargain. Make them feel comfortable to hang around in a beefed-up base lodge that offers a variety of decent, healthy and reasonably-priced food. Don't make them feel abused at the cash registers. Believe me, they feel that way now.

Invest some real marketing money to get these day-trippers to switch to the bush, and watch your numbers soar. Those who come from afar on weekends will still come. Make the place an attractive day/evening destination as opposed to a weekend destination resort.

All the trends in North America in the last 10 years have pointed towards more 'luxury', and I think we're getting near an inflection point. From coast to coast, attracting the upper-end buyer/visitor has been the game. Everbody's doing it. For gosh sakes, even Volkswagen tries to sell upper-end cars.

Again, purely from a business perspective, it's time to fill those empty chairs. Do it with the large number of customers you actually can get, as opposed to those you dream about. The competitive advantage of Sugarbush? it's the terrain, stupid. Play to that strength. The destination resort idea is a dream. You can't build what's needed to really win over that crowd.

skibum1321
01-19-2006, 07:55 AM
I don't think some of the ideas were fantasy at all - such as the woods maintenance ala MRG. More busses running through Slidebrook is absolutely viable too.

rdavisvmd
01-19-2006, 04:08 PM
I have been bringing group of advanced skiers every year for about 8 years. We could go anywhere in VT, ME etc. if we wanted to. We have kept coming back for the diversity and challenging skiing of the MRV. We ski at a minimum 3 days and ski MR/Sugar/ME depending on snow conditions and crowds. The area provides 3 unique moutains which keep us more than occupied for three days. The lodging is great for a group of guys, but if you were catering to families, etc. it could be improved. I would like to see the following... Upgrade to the North Lynx Chair, almost got stuck on that one trying to get an extra run, old and freezing. As with other posts, continue to open up more tree runs. Expecially above Inverness, b/c I could really put the ski the valley pass to work and not worry about parking at MR thanks to Strat's Maps - :wink:

Without rambling, the reason we come is for the challenge and diversity of skiing for longer than a day trip - keep expanding this and we won't ever go anywhere else.

gotamagal
01-22-2006, 03:58 PM
9) Bike path paved from Waitsfield to Warren then up Access RD along the river (a lot less pitch and more beautiful) to South then across to Sugarbush and back to town. With a loop up to Mad River.

The Mad River Path already covers quite a bit of this...but to pave it would be scary...ala Stowe. The Kingsbury Bridge section needs to attach to the northern sections, but there are land owner/access issues. From the Greenway going south...same thing...landowners along the river aren't psyched about people trekking thru their property...but with enough community pressure, the MRPA could get the trails connected.

I'd like to see more summer/year round operations - a larger outdoor pool and recreation center at South would combine with the revitalized tennis program Mike has going at SHARC and help bring in more buyers for the new lodging, etc. Make the golf course more accessible for locals (the price went way up in the last few seasons) during slow times. Ditto on growing the day skier base - areas out west have great buddy pass programs that lower the seasons pass rate and increase skier days - time to get creative!

mikec13
01-22-2006, 06:43 PM
I know this is incredibly trivial! But a garbage can at the top of lifts would be great...that way I wouldnt have to hold the empty water bottle or coffee cup until I get to the bottom...Again I know it is trivial but it is also very easy to do

Strat
01-22-2006, 07:02 PM
I know this is incredibly trivial! But a garbage can at the top of lifts would be great...that way I wouldnt have to hold the empty water bottle or coffee cup until I get to the bottom...Again I know it is trivial but it is also very easy to do
If I'm not mistaken they do usually have those in the lift shacks... of course this would usually require you to take off your implement of snow slidage, but if you can get someone's attention in there it's probably doable without de-plankerizing...

smootharc
01-23-2006, 08:54 AM
....it's probably doable without de-plankerizing...

.....de-plankerizing. A cousin to de-plane-ing....

Strat
01-23-2006, 03:26 PM
....it's probably doable without de-plankerizing...

.....de-plankerizing. A cousin to de-plane-ing....

Haha, I've always thought that can't really be a word...