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ski_it
01-02-2006, 03:08 PM
First off, I want to thank everyone working on the mountain for a job well done over holiday week. The weather pattern was not ideal and made for some challenging conditions, but it seemed like everyone out skiing was having a great time thanks to the hard work of everyone there.

I think it has been mentioned on this board already, and I think it's probably pretty apparent to many at this point, but I haven't heard a good explanation yet, so I'll pose the question anyway-- why is Sugarbush making less snow this year?

I will say, that the snow that is being made this year is truly excellent. I was told that new heads were placed on the guns, and I agree that the result is a soft, dry snow that skis very well. The fact that Organgrinder stayed better than edgeable and in very good shape despite the weather last week is truly a testament to this. That said, from my view there is just a lot less of it being made.

As a passholder, I'm curious what the reason(s) for this might be as it directly impacts the value of the pass I purchased. The simple answer might be that a decision was made to budget less money for snowmaking this year, much the same as there was a decision to reduce the size of the groomer fleet.

The best I can tell, there is less capacity to make snow this year than there was the last few years. For instance, where are all of the huge generators that normally sit by the mtn ops building near the bottom of Super Bravo? Is there less compressor/pump capacity without them? Or is there less man-power on staff out there to run the machines? Or has the construction somehow physically impacted capacity?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy a pass to Sugarbush expecting to get snowmaking like Killington, but it would be really cool to see the snowmaking infrastructure that is in place used to the greatest extent it can be when weather takes a bad turn like it did this last week. I'm not advocating that snowmaking be expanded-- I'm not asking for water and air lines to be strung up to the top of Castlerock, but it really would make me smile to see the tower guns on Stein's and Ripcord get fired up right about now.

I guess what I'm looking for here is whether there has there been a long-term, high-level decision to put less emphasis on snowmaking in favor of other aspects of the business, or maybe a shorter term decision based on high energy costs, or the result of some other factors I haven't thought of?

-Jim

ski_resort_observer
01-02-2006, 04:06 PM
First off, I want to thank everyone working on the mountain for a job well done over holiday week. The weather pattern was not ideal and made for some challenging conditions, but it seemed like everyone out skiing was having a great time thanks to the hard work of everyone there.

I think it has been mentioned on this board already, and I think it's probably pretty apparent to many at this point, but I haven't heard a good explanation yet, so I'll pose the question anyway-- why is Sugarbush making less snow this year?

I will say, that the snow that is being made this year is truly excellent. I was told that new heads were placed on the guns, and I agree that the result is a soft, dry snow that skis very well. The fact that Organgrinder stayed better than edgeable and in very good shape despite the weather last week is truly a testament to this. That said, from my view there is just a lot less of it being made.

As a passholder, I'm curious what the reason(s) for this might be as it directly impacts the value of the pass I purchased. The simple answer might be that a decision was made to budget less money for snowmaking this year, much the same as there was a decision to reduce the size of the groomer fleet.

The best I can tell, there is less capacity to make snow this year than there was the last few years. For instance, where are all of the huge generators that normally sit by the mtn ops building near the bottom of Super Bravo? Is there less compressor/pump capacity without them? Or is there less man-power on staff out there to run the machines? Or has the construction somehow physically impacted capacity?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy a pass to Sugarbush expecting to get snowmaking like Killington, but it would be really cool to see the snowmaking infrastructure that is in place used to the greatest extent it can be when weather takes a bad turn like it did this last week. I'm not advocating that snowmaking be expanded-- I'm not asking for water and air lines to be strung up to the top of Castlerock, but it really would make me smile to see the tower guns on Stein's and Ripcord get fired up right about now.

I guess what I'm looking for here is whether there has there been a long-term, high-level decision to put less emphasis on snowmaking in favor of other aspects of the business, or maybe a shorter term decision based on high energy costs, or the result of some other factors I haven't thought of?

-Jim

I think that's a great question. You can email the man who makes those decisions. whsmith@sugarbush.com Curious what he says. Another option is to email their PR guy jtoland@sugarbush.com

Lostone
01-02-2006, 07:05 PM
They have less compressors because they have switched to a different kind of head for the guns. They are supposed to take significantly less air power to run.

As to why the trail-a-day amount... :?

I've heard that question a bit. :?:

Treeskier
01-02-2006, 07:39 PM
I was interesting to see the quality of snow made this week. Take yesturday: Sleeper had great soft snow on it. But if you skied through the guns on lower Organgrinder 20% of them where goggle coving wet. The rest where correct. Same on Lower Snowball. I was told that there are two crews at each hill, one experienced and one that has newbee's. I do miss Hardy skiing around and doing quick adjustments. Maybe they need to teach a sking snowmaker to ski around to check guns not just walk down the hill. Same observation on Inverness over the last two days.

I can't tell you how many people observed the lack of snowmaking at South compared to past years/managments. People where pretty sadden. I heard power was a problem...but that stems from the want to only buy cheap power and not use expensive power over high demand times. (or save it for high demand times) I suspect that a little lulling of the good natural snow fall in early December convinced them not to go full guns early. (funny how mother nature can fowel that up) Many people remarked that it was surprising not to see snowmaking completed on Rip Coard and Stiens for the holiday.

I will say it was good to see them finally blow snow on North Lynxs. They where running the lift to test it also.

I do feel that the staff was very friendly this week and the lift lines config was the best in years.

Now we all need to push the next few storms North!

Schusseur
01-02-2006, 09:35 PM
Am a long-time fan but I hear points of criticism from new people I've introduced to the bush: 1) snowmaking. Yes, it's a dead horse, but new folks coming here SEE all the unused pipework around the hill, while they're looking at bare trails and it's 20 degrees out. The electricity availablity saga is wearing thin - folks just aren't buying that one. And 2) (also a dead horse) food quality and especially PRICE. $2.50 for a soda? $3.25 for apple juice? And how much for that cold, awful hamburger? Guys, you gotta be joking. There's a line that gets crossed in every customer's mind at some point, where small things start to add up and the dots get connected. Seriously, even well-to-do folks balk at the cost of feeding their family lunch at the Gate house. And just try and take them to the SHARC for a swim after skiing - that's gonna REALLY set you back. This isn't Disney World. As Win said a while back, a business must generate cash flow in order to prosper. Agreed. But somehow, you've got to find a way to do it without sacrificing the customer experience. Somehow you need to enroll your customers in your plan. Make 'em partners, as in "we at Sugarbush offer a unique experience and therefore ask you to put up with a few foibles in order for us to keep giving you what we know you love best...". But what exactly do you think your customer loves best? This is a fundamental question. Who is it exactly that you are selling to? Is it the terrain seekers? Is it the typical skiing family? Is it the mythical 'upper end' consumer who has been going for years to Stowe and Stratton? What's missing at the very least is some basic honesty. Without the benefit of a $300million investment (like at Stowe), it's clear you need to be precise about who your customer is, and then focus the hell out of your precious resources to make sure your particular customer's hot-button is 100% satisfied. They will forgive you for what you cannot do. who wants to spend 300 G's on a partial condo unit when it's obvious corners are being cut everywhere? It's time to level with us. Tell me what sacrifices I need to make in order to be sure I'm getting the very best of something else.

Strat
01-02-2006, 09:44 PM
And how much for that cold, awful hamburger?
Are you kidding? The GH Lodge hamburgers are awesome! Overpriced yes, but very very tasty. :D :D

ahm
01-02-2006, 10:08 PM
Interesting last post by Schusseur. Another long time SB skier once told me: ".........yes you can buy it, but can you afford it?" That, I feel, sums up the Summit Ventures "approach". Since SV purchased the 'bush, snowmaking has been rather limited. Additionally, as they are "manufacturing product (which is what snow making is)" there is very little "on line supervision" of the "production line", hence GS's previous comment about variable product being produced around the area. When you actually consider the concept of "manufacturing" there is typically a fair amount of assessment about product quality coming off the line. At SB there is rarely, if ever, any assessment of the product coming off of the line,yet the "cost" of making that product is high (and something the area always comments about), so one would think "they'd be out there checking it out (and that does not mean just going skiing, a la Win and Adam) and adjusting as necessary. My take is that the management has no real concept of manufacturing and considering they are located in the NE, they need to understand a bit about manufacturing. Hmmm, shouldn't the "management" be "interested" in what type of product they are producing...............seems like an AMC (American Motor Company) approach (can you say Pacer?).

The bottom line I feel is that SV cannot actually afford the business they are in and hence they are simply cutting costs everywhere they can, kinda like the airline industry (one I use a great deal of). They seem to not have the operating capital to "invest" in their own business. Take a look at the natural snow trails, most are in pretty sad shape, yet the area is charging full price. The "value" of the experience right now is more like $40.00. I think SV needs to actually ask themselves, if they have the "core competency" to run the business they are in. When you look at their "work backgrounds" one might ask: "Do you have any experience in this business".

Don't get me wrong, I love the bush and have skied there a very long time. But the trend that I see from SV suggests that they don't really understand exactly who their customers are, what is important to them, and how to provide a quality experience on a daily basis for a good value. Only time will tell, but unless they can come up with the capital to operate their business, it will mean a lot of "boney" runs for the customer. The ski business is a labor of love, with low profits, and unless you possess the capital to "play" in the major ski area business, you have to ask yourself "who you are". If you want to compete with Stowe, then I guess you'll need to "blow", otherwise, maybe they should consider the Magic/MRG/Snowbowl business model--low cost (for the customer) skiing on essentially natural snow, with regularly priced (and warm) food. Only time will tell if they "learn" how to run this kind of business.AHM

Tin Woodsman
01-02-2006, 11:42 PM
I don't want to speak to the larger issues of "knowing your customer" etc.. b/c that's such a touchy-feely thing. Who is to say whether they know their customer and who, exactly, is their customer anyway? I will, however, chime in on the snowmaking issue. I agree completely with much of what's been said here. AFAIC, there are three main problems with the snowmaking efforts thus far: variability in quality, lack of urgency in opening terrain, and lack of a sensible plan to recover from the recent thaw/freeze cycle.

My observations of snowmaking quality over the the last month indicate that it has indeed been more variable than I'd expect. The stuff coming out of the tower guns on OG was light and enjoyable. Yet when you hit the snow from the reguar gun 50 feet down the trail it was thick crud and/or ice. Very difficult to navigate through the changing densities. There is something to this quality control issue, IMHO.

Second, I was pretty surprised thay no effort had been made to blow snow on Stein's, Ripcord, or the North Lynx pod. The first two are some of the more important signature expert runs at SB while NL represents some of the best intermediate and advanced cruising terrain at either mountain. I could almost understand not blowing snow on NL seeing as how its exposure and the the width of its trails ensures that it is expensive to open and maintain, but Stein's and Ripcord? It was consistently cold to the point of being one of the 10 coldest on record, but never so cold that it was dangerous to make snow or that the grid was stressed (i.e. not many 10-20 below nights in the valleys). IOW, though I don't have access to historical humidity measurements, it seems like nearly the entire month offered close to ideal snowmaking conditions. Now of course SB's priority is and should be to ensure that its bread and butter intermediate terrain (Downspout, Jester, Snowball, Spring Fling, Glade, Birdland, Sleeper, Hotshot, etc...) is open for the holidays. But they did have nearly the entire month here.

Finally, I was also somewhat surprised with SB's recovery after the latest thaw/freeze nightmare. Let's be clear here - they were dealt an awful hand by Mother Nature. It's bad enough that it rains on you for 24 hours in the middle of the holidays, but then when it doesn't even have the decency to set-up until a few hours before the opening bell, it's simply not going to be a great day for Mtn Ops. On Friday morning, SB started making snow immediately on Lower OG and Downspout. Makes complete sense to me - these are the heavy hitters off of Bravo and would need resurfacing first. Much to my surprise and dismay, SB was still blowing snow on Lower OG when I showed up Saturday. Instead of spending 24 hours of snowmaking time and money adding 18" of base to OG, wouldn't make more sense to do a quick resurfacing in 12 hours before moving on to other terrain? If not, why not? That's what they did with Downspout and that trail was skiing quite well all weekend. They didn't move on to Snowball until Sunday, by which time the holiday weekend was almost over. Moreover, the trail count remained in the mid 80's including runs like Spillsville, Lower Ripcord and Twist which simply had NO BUSINESS being open. It was downright dangerous to let people on those runs. I was really surprised that they were on offer this weekend. You could here people scraping down them from a mile away. I don't know who they thought they were fooling. One or two misguided souls would gomer their way down those runs and everyone else who heard them knew immediately to stay far away. Looks like that "strategic decision" to go from 6 groomers to 5 this winter bit them in the rear end somewhat.

I love the Bush. IMHO, it has the best combination of terrain, lifts, snowfall, and vibe anywhere in the East. I want it to succeed in every way and I believe mtn lady when she says that money isn't a concern for the first time in a long time. I don't care about expensive food in the lodge (it's always been and always will be overpriced, both here and anywhere else that aspires to resort status). But it's hard to ignore what I see with my own two eyes or feel with my own two skis.

Strat
01-03-2006, 07:36 AM
TW - There has been snowmaking on Stein's and Ripcord, just not a huge amount of it. Nothing on North Lynx, which I don't completely understand, but I guess that they didn't see it necessary to use a bunch of resources to open three trails that don't get a huge amount of traffic anyway...

But jeez! Everyone's such a critic! Is it really that bad out there? Are the (possibly) money-related decisions of this resort really this large of a concern for you?

smootharc
01-03-2006, 09:41 AM
....and don't seem to be petty gripes in any way. Somewhere out there is the meeting point between SV's apparent sincerity in terms of making SB "world class", and the day to day realities and difficulties of achieving that lofty goal. The balance between, as has been mentioned, exclusive and inclusive. It seem's SV is struggling to find that, and tiny bits of erosion occur to the foundation that's been so hard to build up. Three forward steps, one back....rinse, repeat.....

I thought they brought in an ace groomer guy, and some ace mountain ops guy in the last year or two ? All things that point toward an effort to improve....but perhaps somehow Lost in Translation at the moment.

The Health and Racquette has been mostly dead quiet when I've peeked my head in last summer and fall. I'm not sure what the day pricing is, but they should definitely dust off that "grand dame" and promote it's amenities in a way that gets people in the door. 10 packs, gold cards, something/anything that says "we want you here". One gorgeous summer day last year there was a single lifeguard at the pool reading in her chair, alone. I thought....best summer job in America right there.

I'm a firm rooter for SB, the SB folks, and the skiers who love the place. That being said, this year, with the deals at MRG for family pass pricing and season long ski school programs...well, we're one bowl over to the North....

Tin Woodsman
01-03-2006, 10:15 AM
TW - There has been snowmaking on Stein's and Ripcord, just not a huge amount of it. Nothing on North Lynx, which I don't completely understand, but I guess that they didn't see it necessary to use a bunch of resources to open three trails that don't get a huge amount of traffic anyway...

But jeez! Everyone's such a critic! Is it really that bad out there? Are the (possibly) money-related decisions of this resort really this large of a concern for you?

That's surprising to me re: Ripcord and Steins. Visually, it didn't seem that there was any difference in cover between those runs and the other natural trails. Also, in December I was checking the lift/trail detail every day to see where they were blowing snow and neither of those two ever showed up, though I suppose I could have missed it.

FWIW, this is a concern to me for two reasons. First, on a practical level, I'd like to see runs like Ripcord, Steins, and the NL pod open b/c it helps to spread out the traffic and that has very real implications for the day-to-day skiing experience. Second, if there are financial problems, then that doesn't portend good things for a resort and community that has a special place in my heart.

ski_it
01-03-2006, 11:19 AM
TW - There has been snowmaking on Stein's and Ripcord, just not a huge amount of it. Nothing on North Lynx, which I don't completely understand, but I guess that they didn't see it necessary to use a bunch of resources to open three trails that don't get a huge amount of traffic anyway...


Not to quibble, but I really don't think there's been any snowmaking on Stein's or Ripcord this year. I remember the first weekend in January last year when the mountain was trying to recover from some bad weather and the conditions were very similar to what they are right now; Ripcord was buried by relentless snowmaking for almost a week. The skiing was fantastic on Ripcord that weekend, and there were so many people on it that it looked like an anthill.



But jeez! Everyone's such a critic! Is it really that bad out there? Are the (possibly) money-related decisions of this resort really this large of a concern for you?


The natural snow trails that are listed as open on the trail report really are that bad. I was one of those misguided souls, as TW described us, skiing (hopefully not gomering) down them everyday last week despite the conditions, so I can tell you first hand. In the condition they're in now, they really shouldn't "count" as open.

This is the real reason I raised the question to begin with. I'm not trying to be a critic, but I feel like the value of my season pass has decreased when we find ourselves with very similar ski conditions to a year ago but a lesser snowmaking operation to help deal with it. Season pass value is a smaller concern with the mtn's financial decisions, and the larger concern is for the overall financial health of the resort which can have wide-ranging implications. Aside from that, there is the practical/selfish concern for my own skiing experience (and, of course, yours too :) ).

Strat
01-03-2006, 04:37 PM
I know I've seen guns out (though I suppose I can't vouch for actual snowmaking) on Stein's, and I distinctly remember frosty trees (clearly from snowmaking) on Ripcord right when South opened... even if there was snowmaking though, it was quite little.

I suppose I understand your point of view - everyone just seems so quick to criticize. By the way, by "that bad" out there I was more referring to the financial conditions and such of the resort rather than the trail surface, as I know how bad it is. Not 100% sure what I meant though, as I wrote that this morning when I was barely awake.

Schusseur
01-03-2006, 08:56 PM
This is a useful discussion, and the tone is actually quite respectful. We all love the bush and in the end I know I absolutely want the SV team to succeed. Please indulge me for a moment on the following. The snowmaking issue is a very big issue. Nothing says "we're barely getting by" as fast as a bunch of bare trails when the perception is more should be open. Customers are keenly aware of just how much terrain is skiable at Killington and Stowe. The bare bones approach is totally acceptable if your customers are mostly day skiers, who flock to the bush from within a 50 mile radius and who come for "the best mountain for the best prices". That strategy would bring in the bodies, and conveniently, wouldn't rely on a need for new beds. It would also dovetail nicely with Mad River's approach. Trying to beat Stowe at its own game would be a doomed strategy, and I hope this isn't the SV idea. SV seems to be targeting the same folks who would stay at the Pitcher Inn - well-healed, but in search of luxury in less-traveled surroundings. Isn't it a Pitcher Inn guest who would logically want to buy a ClayBrook unit? But it's a bit of a small and somewhat odd niche. The prosperous want to be surrounded by prosperity - shops, restaurants and absolutely reliable snow. Stratton and Okemo make this pitch, and deliver upon it. Don't play the prosperous resort game unless you really mean it. Those particular customers are in the end also extremely demanding. Additionally, competition is increasingly coming from Jet Blue and SouthWest Air. To think you can pay $250 on Delta and find yourself in Salt Lake City only 4 1/2 hours later from New York. Why would anyone of means bother coming to Sugarbush for any more than a 3-day weekend with all these new flight options? So it's about bagging the weekend warriors. Since the market for the road ragers isn't growing, you need to win them over from another resort. If they've chosen the other places for the good feelings of a prosperous setting, no amount of money that SV can throw at these folks will ever get them to budge. BUT, if at the heart of it, these folks really care more about the ski experience than facials, Sugarbush really does have a competitive advantage. It is therefore imperative to make sure the skiing experience is the top priority, and that snowmaking be encouraged full tilt. ANY PRIORITY OTHER THAN A TOP-NOTCH SKIING EXPERIENCE WHEN YOU ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF WINNING OVER SKIERS IS A HUGE MISTAKE. Unless you're not in the skiing business.

ski_resort_observer
01-03-2006, 10:11 PM
blah,blah,blah,blah said the arm-chair resort owner. If the snowmaking is not up to your personal expectations, that's not something SV needs to worry about. They know they can never make everyone happy. The people who actually run the Bush want to provide the best experience possible. Do you believe that? I do.

Is it possible they have good reasons for the decisions they make. Is it possible you don't understand them cause your not aware of all the issues involved? The only people that can truely respond are the people that make those decisions. Ask them. They are accessible. Win, Hardy, Dave. Go down to Tuckers Nursery, the former vice president of mountain opps is the owner, maybe he can help you with the issues you have. He is a good guy and loves to chat. Buy a tree and learn more about Sugarbush snowmaking than you would think possible.

Everything here is simply just conjecture. If your personal fav ski trail has not gotten the snowmaking you feel it deserves. I am sure there is good reason for it.

Conversly, I was already to buy a large Claybrook unit, maybe 2 or 3, but they refuse to repaint the towers of my fav chairlift. I think the color is ugly. I keep telling the sales guy, repaint the towers, sign me up. I'm still waiting. Isn't the customer, in this case, possible customer, always right. :wink:

Tin Woodsman
01-03-2006, 11:52 PM
SRO -

I don't think that's a fair characterization of where Scheusser is coming from. To be certain, I'm sure there are a hundred things we don't know behind the scenes that are the basis for our perceptions. One of those things may be related to budgetary issues, but we don't know unless we're on the inside. We're only left with speculation. That said, this business about lift towers etc.. is a nonsensical red herring. Yes, customers who come to SB should expect that the mtn is doing everything in its power to offer the best skiing experience possible. And like it or not, this year's snowmaking effort on some of the signature expert terrain at South does come up short when compared to years past.

I think we know, or should know if we're being honest, that these guys are doing the best they can. Hell, Hardy himself was in the midst of the Bravo lineup Friday morning informing everyone what the status of the hill was and how it would open in stages. This is a guy who seems to enjoy leading from the front lines, and it's hard not to like that. But the eyes don't lie in this case, so in the absence of concrete info, the questions raised here seem legitimate.

random_ski_guy
01-04-2006, 12:20 AM
With all due respect Ski Resort Observer, Schusser has made what I think are some very astute observations about Sugarbush's place in the market. Just who is the typical Sugarbush skier and what is the best course to market Sugarbush is now and will be forever subject to much debate. A subject matter that to me is so puzzling, that I am not going to launch in that direction with this post. So on to Schusser's and the like predecessors' posts about snow making.

First and foremost, you have to have snow on key trails or else, no matter whatever pleasures you encounter during your visit, it will never make up for your inadequate ski experience.

Failing to blow snow on primary arteries is a sign of weakness and/or incompetence (hurts to say that, I don't feel good bashing the new ownership at all). Skiers aren't idiots, surely many took note of this front and center bare cupboard during the pivotal holiday week. We could talk to mtn ops and ownership, but in the end, I don't think any excuse they can offer can justify not making snow on these two trails. This is not at all analogous to a customer not liking the color of a ski lift, that would be ridiculous ( i realize you where trying to make a point). Skiers, like it or not, expect during periods of cooperative weather that the mtn will ensure the great trails are open during holiday weeks.

Consider this, if you took a trip to Disney World (I know booooo, but it fits the analogy) on a major holiday weekend and both space mtn and big thunder mtn railroad were closed at the same time how would you feel? Would talking to Mr. Eisner or whomever really make you feel any better after you hauled your family all the way down there and laid out some significant sums for lodging? At that point, it doesn't matter what they have to say, the moment as past and the experience is indelibly noted.

Now to steer this back to the positive. I love Sugarbush and I believe, like most everyone on this chatbaord, that it is the best ski area in VT. To me it has the total package; two beautiful mtns, ski trails with variety and character, ample natural snow, a great lift system, size, height and charming nearby towns.

I really want Sugarbush to succeed and I do believe its ok to pull back on snow making in the early season because it makes better financial sense. However we are now in prime ski time. Its time to go for it, no holding back from Xmas to March.

Lostone
01-04-2006, 07:15 AM
blah,blah,blah,blah said the arm-chair resort owner. If the snowmaking is not up to your personal expectations, that's not something SV needs to worry about.

I think the point is that the snowmaking is below a lot of customers' expectations. It is what I read here and hear on the hill. If there is a reason, it is not communicated to the customers.




And as for the trails being open that "shouldn't", there is a large number of people that are in favor of putting up a thin cover sign and letting people go. Most of those trails have to be seen from the chairlift before you can get to them. That takes most of the "I didn't know" factor out.

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2006, 07:42 AM
I think the point is that the snowmaking is below a lot of customers' expectations. It is what I read here and hear on the hill. If there is a reason, it is not communicated to the customers.
Exactly.



And as for the trails being open that "shouldn't", there is a large number of people that are in favor of putting up a thin cover sign and letting people go. Most of those trails have to be seen from the chairlift before you can get to them. That takes most of the "I didn't know" factor out.
I'm normally one of thoe people when the cover is just thin. But when the thin cover that is there consists entirely of Grade A bulletproof boilerplate, then that's just a dangerous situation. True enough that most people could see this from the chair. That's why there were only 4-5 people per day that were desperate enough to try them out. Still, it smacked of trail count padding by keping them open. SB knew they were in historically lousy shape and did nothing to improve their condition (not even as much as a single groomer sweep).

Lostone
01-04-2006, 08:40 AM
1 groomer sweep on those trails would have killed them. There was not enough snow to support a groomer pass. Why open it, then? Because some people did ski it. Most found that it wasn't worth it, but some actually enjoyed it. (What is wrong with those people??? :shock: :lol: )

I could easily see that it was bulletproof... (OK, maybe just arrowproof?) so I still support putting up the sign and letting those driving their skis make their own decisions.

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2006, 09:27 AM
1 groomer sweep on those trails would have killed them. There was not enough snow to support a groomer pass. Why open it, then? Because some people did ski it. Most found that it wasn't worth it, but some actually enjoyed it. (What is wrong with those people??? :shock: :lol: )


First of all, I can't imagine anyone enjoying losing their fillings on that garbage. the fact that there were only 4-5 tracks on any of those runs puts the lie to the notion that somone may have actually enjoyed it. If it was so much fun, then surely there would have been more tracks from people doing laps on those runs. More importantly, you've presented something of a circular argument. Perhaps there wasn't enough snow for the groomers to make those runs skiable, but isn't that mostly a result of the failure to make snow on those runs in the first place? I suppose Spillsville is an obvious exception (no snowmaking) but it looked plenty filled in to me (as it always does) for a groomer do take care of business. Ripcord and Steins, maybe not so much. Didn't even bother looking closely at the Valley House natural trails, but you can't do much with those anyway in these weather conditions.

ski_resort_observer
01-04-2006, 10:03 AM
"But the eyes don't lie in this case, so in the absence of concrete info, the questions raised here seem legitimate."

Exactly my point, why is the idea of getting concrete info not being considered.

"Consider this, if you took a trip to Disney World (I know booooo, but it fits the analogy) on a major holiday weekend and both space mtn and big thunder mtn railroad were closed at the same time how would you feel?"

I would be bummed, those are two of my fav rides, but I would not start questioning management until I found the reasons why they were closed.

I challenge anyone who has concerns about snowmaking to make an effort to find out the reasons behind the Bush's snowmaking MO. Questioning with knowledge is so much more positive than what we have on this thread. I put email links in one of my posts, why won't someone at least try to get some "concrete info". You also can can also call 1-800-53-SUGAR and be transferred to Hardy's office phone, they can give you his extension or Win's and you can call directly. Get off the chair, become informed.

Nitpicky point. If you have a fairly long post please break it up into paragraphs. It is so much easier to read. :)

beelze
01-04-2006, 12:18 PM
Is it possible they have good reasons for the decisions they make. Is it possible you don't understand them cause your not aware of all the issues involved? The only people that can truely respond are the people that make those decisions. Ask them. They are accessible. Win, Hardy, Dave. Go down to Tuckers Nursery, the former vice president of mountain opps is the owner, maybe he can help you with the issues you have. He is a good guy and loves to chat. Buy a tree and learn more about Sugarbush snowmaking than you would think possible."


Ah.. not. Complained to highest level management two years ago about grooming issues and instead of getting some degree
of respectful answer was told "its all great! what are you talking about?". They care only to the extent they don't lose money. Sadly
they don't seem to realize listening and acting on customer gripes and trying to be proactive and address issues before they become
complaints will ultimately make them more money.

As to the original topic, I have to concur about the random quality of snow. Was really bummed out before Xmas when they blew
some totally wet thick crusty stuff all over Inverness, while there was still a good 4-8" of powder (maybe more) underneath. They
then groomed it all and managed ot make bare spots for that special deal Friday (seperate topic - why did they not open
Inverness chair until after 1pm that day when it was so crowded? Why does it take $5 tickets to get the same crowd SB had
every weekend before these guys took over?)

Anyways I'm tired of being bitter over the condition of the mountain or what we are charged as managment does not care and
complaining does no good. With a good year at work I'll be able to vote with my feet and be in Utah or Montana next
season.

KingM
01-04-2006, 01:27 PM
The Disney World analogy is not entirely complete. Let's say that you went to Disney World and there was an electrical storm passing through that shut down the two rides. You may question why they haven't better protected their rides, but it would be obvious why they are not running.

Here at the inn I didn't have a single person complain about Sugarbush's role in the Christmas week skiing difficulties. Some were quite disappointed at the damage wrought by nature's vagaries, but they certainly didn't think the NCP was the mountain's fault.

Anyway, I don't know first-hand what conditions were like last week because I was way too busy to get up, but I did hear that the first day after that second rainstorm was simply atrocious. Whatever they were like a week ago, however, I went up this morning and was pleasantly surprised. There is a lot of snowmaking coverage and runs on the big blues and several of the smaller ones were quite pleasant. We need a good dump and several couple-inchers to get everything to tip-top shape, but overall, not bad.

WWF-VT
01-04-2006, 02:16 PM
My view of last week as a season pass holder. I was on the mountain wth my family ( two kids) on 12/29, 12/31, 1/1 and 1/2. 12/29 - We stuck to the blue cruisers at Lincoln Peak - Gate House area - (kids love Sleeper) , Super Bravo and Valley House Double. Snow was soft and spring like until the rain hit about 1 PM. It was distressing to see the coverage on Ripcord, Steins, etc but we had a great day taking advantage of the conditions on the open cruisers. Wisely we skipped Friday. We took a ride to Stowe on Friday - the Gondola and Quad were not operating at Stowe due to the icing / wind fog. Crowded parking lots with everyone jammed on lower lifst at Spruce Peak or the Mansfield triple. ( Later heard that Stowe giving vouchers for another day)

Saturday was another day of cruisers on Mt Ellen / Sunday Lincoln Peak and back to Mt Ellen on Monday. Overall the trails we skied recovered pretty well. On 1/1 we spoke with a boarder who was at Stowe on 12/31 and was positively glowing about the conditions at SB vs Stowe.

For what it's worth the cruisers on Mt Ellen and Lincoln Peak had good coverage over the weekend. I am no authority on snow making but I think they did OK based upon the weather. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a dumping that will provide better coverage on the trails that we wished they were blowing snow on.

Volkl Skier
01-04-2006, 02:18 PM
Hey, first post here, but I had to jump in. I've been skiing Sugarbush my whole life. In the 21 years I've skied there, its had more than its share of ups and downs, and I'm not going to speculate on what the management's reasons were, but instead just tell you what I've seen. The snowmaking was AWFUL. PERIOD, the quality, amount, everything. Lower Organgrinder was a disaster when they were blowing on it. They didn't touch Rip, or Stein's. North Links was broken?! BROKEN?! How many weeks into the ski season are we? Murphy's what they heck was that? Half groomed, I nearly bit it second run on that trail (and I had already seen them carting someone off it that morning) They needed a sign telling you it wasn't groomed all the way over (ATLEAST a few poles to grab your attention) Flat light that morning, no depth perception, laying into a nice gs turn and suddenly I'm skidding sideways through the ice bumps going 40 mph at a tree. Thank god my Volkls have the best edges you can get and I managed to get them to hook up and missed the tree by less than 3 feet.

As far as the ice bumps trails go, I say leave them open. Put up the signs, everyone knows exactly what they will be like. Someone was saying they were terrible and who could possibly have fun on them etc. Well we were on them all week, all of them, and it was great. Skiing in those conditions REALLY makes you a better skier (you have no other choice.) Plus we're just crazy like that.

TwinTipTele
01-04-2006, 05:57 PM
Hey, first post here, but I had to jump in. I've been skiing Sugarbush my whole life. In the 21 years I've skied there, its had more than its share of ups and downs, and I'm not going to speculate on what the management's reasons were, but instead just tell you what I've seen. The snowmaking was AWFUL. PERIOD, the quality, amount, everything. Lower Organgrinder was a disaster when they were blowing on it. They didn't touch Rip, or Stein's. North Links was broken?! BROKEN?! How many weeks into the ski season are we? Murphy's what they heck was that? Half groomed, I nearly bit it second run on that trail (and I had already seen them carting someone off it that morning) They needed a sign telling you it wasn't groomed all the way over (ATLEAST a few poles to grab your attention) Flat light that morning, no depth perception, laying into a nice gs turn and suddenly I'm skidding sideways through the ice bumps going 40 mph at a tree. Thank god my Volkls have the best edges you can get and I managed to get them to hook up and missed the tree by less than 3 feet.

As far as the ice bumps trails go, I say leave them open. Put up the signs, everyone knows exactly what they will be like. Someone was saying they were terrible and who could possibly have fun on them etc. Well we were on them all week, all of them, and it was great. Skiing in those conditions REALLY makes you a better skier (you have no other choice.) Plus we're just crazy like that.

If you were out of control/beyond your ability under marginal snow conditions, that's your own fault. The idea of "scoping a landing" in the terrain park applies to skiing on a run too - don't go bombing around until you have a firm grasp of what you're bombing into.

As to this whole snowmaking debate...

1) Trails that are thin/bony are marked as such. Most of the unbelievably bad trails right now (Exterminator, etc) are at least black diamond, if not double. If you can't handle them (or don't want to deal with shiny snow), stick to lower angle blue square (or groomed black diamond) runs. Period. Nobody makes you ski down a trail, so if it has a thin cover sign, swallow your pride and ski away or suck up the fact that it's not going to be so good right now.

2) This has been a strange year for us. We have a new fleet of snowmaking guns, ones which have dramatically changed out efficiency at making snow under marginal conditions. Basically, when it's really cold - usually starting this time of year - we can make snow much more efficiently than we could've with the old guns. However, as temps become more marginal (read: wet bulb temps deteriorate), we can't make as much as we could with the old guns. It's a double edged sword; we can make better snow (and more of it) when the conditions come. Have patience.

3) Why would we touch Rip or Stein's when North Lynx isn't open, our existing trails need re-surfacing, and we're getting record crowds of people? The vast majority of skiers at SB can't ski Rip or Stein's. Granted, you and I can ski it, but let's face it, what good does it do for Ripcord to be sick when all the runs leading to and from it are horrendous? It's all about making the conditions as good as possible for as many people as possible, not catering to the select few who can ski steep bumps. Besides, they're both open now, and since they're both double black diamonds (and only experts should be on doubles), you can choose to ski them should you be an EXPERT. I'm not saying they're overly enjoyable right now, but that's a moot point.

If you really feel the need to complain about snowmaking/grooming/current conditions, look to MRG for a reality check. Our groomers and snowmakers work their asses off while you're sleeping to give you a surface that, at this point in time, is light years ahead of the stuff you'll find over at MRG. And have you noticed the copious amounts of rain and warm weather we've received over the last 2 weeks? Conditions have gone downhill since 12/23 - the day that it got warm and busy here at the resort. This past week has seen thaws/freezes, huge crowds, and rain. Where in that picture can you even feel justified in expecting a "great" snow surface? We could probably overcome one of those variables, but not all three at once. Ounce for ounce, dollar for dollar, we are offering as good or better snow surfaces than anyone else in this region (read: Stowe, Bolton, Smuggs). Rest assured that once the temps return consistently and we have a chance to work in some fresh/natural snow, things will improve dramatically and instantly. Have faith.

That being said, have you considered that if snow conditions haven't been so hot on the trails you're skiing on, then maybe you're on the wrong trails? This Monday saw pretty terrible conditions on some trails, but excellent on others... EX: Exterminator was skiable but not enjoyable, but Inverness had the softest, most enjoyable manmade/bumpy/whaleback snow of the season. On south, Organgrinder left a bit to be desired, but Sleeper Chutes had some of the best soft bumps of the year. Look around! Conditions may be marginal right now, but that doesn't mean they're not good if you know the right places to go...

-TTT

Lostone
01-04-2006, 07:04 PM
2) This has been a strange year for us. We have a new fleet of snowmaking guns, ones which have dramatically changed out efficiency at making snow under marginal conditions. Basically, when it's really cold - usually starting this time of year - we can make snow much more efficiently than we could've with the old guns. However, as temps become more marginal (read: wet bulb temps deteriorate), we can't make as much as we could with the old guns. It's a double edged sword; we can make better snow (and more of it) when the conditions come. Have patience.

First, welcome to the forum.

Great response. :)

I think the above mostly answers my questions on this. It also explains why I've been seeing all the old style guns being used, which is something I've been wondering.

Treeskier
01-04-2006, 07:08 PM
As I stated earlier, a side from over feel that there is less over all snow at South. Most peoples complaints are steming from the mixed bag of snow making. You know something is wrong when you go through 10 good guns then two goggle plastering guns followed by a few good guns then a bad one.

With the passion shown in these psots may I suggest that you put #'s on the guns and quietly let us in the know...know that you can call or tell........the lift op at the bottom or call on our talk-a-bouts to a pre-deturmined # or let MT lady know that say....gun 571 on lower snowball is spewing. Then a snow maker on skies could quickly go and fix that one gun or two. Just a suggestion.

Doing my snow dance!!!!!

Once the woods open up all of this will go by the way side.

Volkl Skier
01-04-2006, 07:43 PM
Hey, first post here, but I had to jump in. I've been skiing Sugarbush my whole life. In the 21 years I've skied there, its had more than its share of ups and downs, and I'm not going to speculate on what the management's reasons were, but instead just tell you what I've seen. The snowmaking was AWFUL. PERIOD, the quality, amount, everything. Lower Organgrinder was a disaster when they were blowing on it. They didn't touch Rip, or Stein's. North Links was broken?! BROKEN?! How many weeks into the ski season are we? Murphy's what they heck was that? Half groomed, I nearly bit it second run on that trail (and I had already seen them carting someone off it that morning) They needed a sign telling you it wasn't groomed all the way over (ATLEAST a few poles to grab your attention) Flat light that morning, no depth perception, laying into a nice gs turn and suddenly I'm skidding sideways through the ice bumps going 40 mph at a tree. Thank god my Volkls have the best edges you can get and I managed to get them to hook up and missed the tree by less than 3 feet.

As far as the ice bumps trails go, I say leave them open. Put up the signs, everyone knows exactly what they will be like. Someone was saying they were terrible and who could possibly have fun on them etc. Well we were on them all week, all of them, and it was great. Skiing in those conditions REALLY makes you a better skier (you have no other choice.) Plus we're just crazy like that.

If you were out of control/beyond your ability under marginal snow conditions, that's your own fault. The idea of "scoping a landing" in the terrain park applies to skiing on a run too - don't go bombing around until you have a firm grasp of what you're bombing into.

As to this whole snowmaking debate...

1) Trails that are thin/bony are marked as such. Most of the unbelievably bad trails right now (Exterminator, etc) are at least black diamond, if not double. If you can't handle them (or don't want to deal with shiny snow), stick to lower angle blue square (or groomed black diamond) runs. Period. Nobody makes you ski down a trail, so if it has a thin cover sign, swallow your pride and ski away or suck up the fact that it's not going to be so good right now.

2) This has been a strange year for us. We have a new fleet of snowmaking guns, ones which have dramatically changed out efficiency at making snow under marginal conditions. Basically, when it's really cold - usually starting this time of year - we can make snow much more efficiently than we could've with the old guns. However, as temps become more marginal (read: wet bulb temps deteriorate), we can't make as much as we could with the old guns. It's a double edged sword; we can make better snow (and more of it) when the conditions come. Have patience.

3) Why would we touch Rip or Stein's when North Lynx isn't open, our existing trails need re-surfacing, and we're getting record crowds of people? The vast majority of skiers at SB can't ski Rip or Stein's. Granted, you and I can ski it, but let's face it, what good does it do for Ripcord to be sick when all the runs leading to and from it are horrendous? It's all about making the conditions as good as possible for as many people as possible, not catering to the select few who can ski steep bumps. Besides, they're both open now, and since they're both double black diamonds (and only experts should be on doubles), you can choose to ski them should you be an EXPERT. I'm not saying they're overly enjoyable right now, but that's a moot point.

If you really feel the need to complain about snowmaking/grooming/current conditions, look to MRG for a reality check. Our groomers and snowmakers work their asses off while you're sleeping to give you a surface that, at this point in time, is light years ahead of the stuff you'll find over at MRG. And have you noticed the copious amounts of rain and warm weather we've received over the last 2 weeks? Conditions have gone downhill since 12/23 - the day that it got warm and busy here at the resort. This past week has seen thaws/freezes, huge crowds, and rain. Where in that picture can you even feel justified in expecting a "great" snow surface? We could probably overcome one of those variables, but not all three at once. Ounce for ounce, dollar for dollar, we are offering as good or better snow surfaces than anyone else in this region (read: Stowe, Bolton, Smuggs). Rest assured that once the temps return consistently and we have a chance to work in some fresh/natural snow, things will improve dramatically and instantly. Have faith.

That being said, have you considered that if snow conditions haven't been so hot on the trails you're skiing on, then maybe you're on the wrong trails? This Monday saw pretty terrible conditions on some trails, but excellent on others... EX: Exterminator was skiable but not enjoyable, but Inverness had the softest, most enjoyable manmade/bumpy/whaleback snow of the season. On south, Organgrinder left a bit to be desired, but Sleeper Chutes had some of the best soft bumps of the year. Look around! Conditions may be marginal right now, but that doesn't mean they're not good if you know the right places to go...

-TTT

First of all, I was skiing under total control for the conditions that SHOULD have been present. I skied Birdland just prior and it was fantastic, Murphy's is RIGHT next to it, SAME trail rating, NO thin cover OR experts only signs. Nice grooming suddenly turning into frozen moguls sure sounds like an experts only trail to me (read: as lower snowball was marked early last week THIN COVER EXPERTS ONLY)

The snow making was marginal at best, a FAR cry from what it once was. Remember them building the impoundment lake for more capacity? I guess they need an impoundment lake to blow wet snow on 100 yards of lower organgrinder for 24 straight hours?! In previous years they'd be out there blowing snow on MANY trails at once, even while it was snowing.

Yea, they did a fantasic job on sleeper last weekend, I'll give them that, only took 4 days since the rain to get ONE trail looking like that... I got in a few nice runs on it, but everyone and their mother, and apparently their children in the form if sugar bears getting "lessons" in how to do the pizza down a mogul field (instructors shouldn't have had half those kids on sleeper chute nevermind what the pizza/sideslip do to a nice mogul field....)

I love Sugarbush more than most people do. Every friday I hop in the car and drive 370 miles just to ski for two days to drive 370 miles home. But if sloppy whale tales on lower organ and 20 yards of nice bumps on sleeper are all Sugarbush can muster up DAYS after the rain, then I don't see where the $1300 I spent on my pass went.... I'm not asking for perfection, mother nature throws a curveball once in a while (last years xmas week $ucked too) But I do expect them to do their best to get things going again, and when they mess up (which they OBVIOUSLY have) instead of sitting on a high horse and saying you should have skied such and such a run, and we stay up all night spraying and grooming for YOU!!! They really need to be saying, hey guys, I'm really sorry we #$^% that one up good, its not going to happen again!

Tin Woodsman
01-04-2006, 08:06 PM
Wow - TTT is definitely the leader in the clubhouse for rookie poster of the year. Great post. Thanks for the insights, opinions, and info. I hadn't heard about the new nozzles. This is certainly encouraging for those colder nights, but it doesn't explain the dramatic differences in snow quality/density I observed from one gun to the next last week. Is it possible that these new nozzles were only installed on the tower guns?

As for lack of coverage on expert terrain, I've already acknowledged that SB's first priority must be to blow snow on its bread and butter intermediate trails. That's a no-brainer. But the effort this year still stands in stark contrast to years past when concerted efforts were made to cover at least Ripcord fairly early, and Steins not long after that. Given the consistently cold weather SB had from the early days of December right up to 12/23, I was surprised they hadn't hit those runs.

Finally, on the issue of keeping trails open after the big thaw/freeze, the more I think about it the more I understand that everyone in New England does this sort of stuff. It's misleading for everyone b/c those trails are effectively not skiable for 99% of the guests (and are enjoyable for even fewer), but it's no different than the standard practice elsewhere. But like I said, this wouldn't have been an issue if snow had been made on the runs we've talked about (including the NL pod) b/c they could have run the groomers over them to bring them into at least a semblance of skiing shape.

Listen, if SB is doing record business, then all of this is just so much pissing in the wind. At the end of the day, the market's voice is all that matters and people seem to be voting with their feet and dollars (though that comes as a surprise to me given how empty the mtn was other than 12/23). The mtn was faced with a "Perfect Storm" of worst case scenarios and I'm sure it did as much as it could to recover as quickly as possible. Still, there are always areas of improvement, some of which I've detailed above and some that others have touched upon. I look forward to colder temps in January (if they come - the long range forecasts aren't promising in that regard) to see if SB can really execute.

Lostone
01-04-2006, 08:32 PM
First of all, I was skiing under total control for the conditions that SHOULD have been present.

And I want to spend the money I SHOULD have made. :wink:

With all due respect, you are wrong. The person driving the skis is responsible for where the skis go, and how they do it.

For the record, I HATE the practice of grooming one half and leaving the other to bump up. This has been discussed over at the Zone, or on RSN. I know I am in the minority. Your problem is bad as is the one where someone bails out on the bump part and shoots across the groomed, in front of or at someone cruising the groomed.

Also for the record, Murphy's is one of the trails they do that with most. Second would be Spring Fling (Maybe more?) and then Cliffs.

But the point is that you should be in control and if you couldn't see, you should be moving slower. I've done the same. I was at fault.

Lostone
01-04-2006, 08:42 PM
Finally, on the issue of keeping trails open after the big thaw/freeze, the more I think about it the more I understand that everyone in New England does this sort of stuff. It's misleading for everyone b/c those trails are effectively not skiable for 99% of the guests (and are enjoyable for even fewer),

I have looked at some of those trails and said they were usless. Then I see someone skiing down them in good form, like there is nothing hard at all. (Or maybe they just hide it beter?(Thanx Dave! :lol: ))

Of course, as to the second part about "enjoyable for even fewer" ... You should have heard the four snowboarders I heard on Spillsville, today. :lol: The were sliding sideways, but I don't think they were scraping much off.

They had used up all the real words and were inventing new ones. But they were laughing! :wink:

And right about now, they are probably having a beer, asking if they remember that one trail.

It is an experience. :wink:

summitchallenger
01-04-2006, 09:11 PM
From what I have seen and heard, they have been cutting back on snowmaking for the past few seasons because of cost and high electric rates.

Volkl Skier
01-04-2006, 09:30 PM
Wow - TTT is definitely the leader in the clubhouse for rookie poster of the year. Great post. Thanks for the insights, opinions, and info. I hadn't heard about the new nozzles. This is certainly encouraging for those colder nights, but it doesn't explain the dramatic differences in snow quality/density I observed from one gun to the next last week. Is it possible that these new nozzles were only installed on the tower guns?

As for lack of coverage on expert terrain, I've already acknowledged that SB's first priority must be to blow snow on its bread and butter intermediate trails. That's a no-brainer. But the effort this year still stands in stark contrast to years past when concerted efforts were made to cover at least Ripcord fairly early, and Steins not long after that. Given the consistently cold weather SB had from the early days of December right up to 12/23, I was surprised they hadn't hit those runs.

Finally, on the issue of keeping trails open after the big thaw/freeze, the more I think about it the more I understand that everyone in New England does this sort of stuff. It's misleading for everyone b/c those trails are effectively not skiable for 99% of the guests (and are enjoyable for even fewer), but it's no different than the standard practice elsewhere. But like I said, this wouldn't have been an issue if snow had been made on the runs we've talked about (including the NL pod) b/c they could have run the groomers over them to bring them into at least a semblance of skiing shape.

Listen, if SB is doing record business, then all of this is just so much pissing in the wind. At the end of the day, the market's voice is all that matters and people seem to be voting with their feet and dollars (though that comes as a surprise to me given how empty the mtn was other than 12/23). The mtn was faced with a "Perfect Storm" of worst case scenarios and I'm sure it did as much as it could to recover as quickly as possible. Still, there are always areas of improvement, some of which I've detailed above and some that others have touched upon. I look forward to colder temps in January (if they come - the long range forecasts aren't promising in that regard) to see if SB can really execute.

The new nozzles are much more quiet than the old style (I'm guessing they use less air) I only saw them on the tower guns. I'm pretty sure the guns on the ground are the old style.

Volkl Skier
01-04-2006, 09:40 PM
First of all, I was skiing under total control for the conditions that SHOULD have been present.

And I want to spend the money I SHOULD have made. :wink:

With all due respect, you are wrong. The person driving the skis is responsible for where the skis go, and how they do it.

For the record, I HATE the practice of grooming one half and leaving the other to bump up. This has been discussed over at the Zone, or on RSN. I know I am in the minority. Your problem is bad as is the one where someone bails out on the bump part and shoots across the groomed, in front of or at someone cruising the groomed.

Also for the record, Murphy's is one of the trails they do that with most. Second would be Spring Fling (Maybe more?) and then Cliffs.

But the point is that you should be in control and if you couldn't see, you should be moving slower. I've done the same. I was at fault.

I disagree, you are basically saying that the ski area never has any responsibility for the trail conditions when infact they MANUFACTURED the unsafe conditions. Had they left the entire run ungroomed, no one could get any kind of real speed on it. There was no signage anywhere on the trail or any indication at the top of trail that they had produced an unsafe environment. Ofcourse the skier is responsible for staying in control, just like the driver of a car is responsible, but what they did is like having a nice clear plowed 3 lane interstate changing over to an unplowed dirt road right around a bend in the road.

Oh yea and for the record, my problem was nothing like someone shooting out of the bumps out of control into someone's way on the groom because I did not put anyone else in any danger whatsoever, which is first and foremost what the responsibility code is about.

Schusseur
01-04-2006, 09:44 PM
Volkl Skier - congrats to you. 740 miles roundtrip is true devotion. I guess I'd be real curious to hear about why exactly you make that hellish trip. Why don't you in fact stop in at Stratton, Okemo or even Killington, as I'm sure many of your neighbors do. When did you start coming to the bush? Why? what keeps you coming back?

Do you own a place? for how long? Do you come up in the summer? Do you dine out or eat in when in the valley? What kind of car do you drive? How would you rate yourself as a skier? Do you bring family/friends/significant other(s) with you? What are your thoughts about ClayBrook? Do you know roughly how much you spend in total on a typical weekend visit?

Do you do anything apres ski or go out at night? Do you pay for any lessons or use the SHARC? How much of a factor is price in your decision to come here? Do you believe in the management team's vision for success?

Sorry to pester you like this, but I think these questions start to get at who the real Sugarbush customer is. If management could attract more guys like you, let alone the ones who live only 200 miles away, the strategy would have a chance. If it's not too invasive (no, I'm not a proctologist), please go ahead an answer whatever of these questions you wish.

Without trying to influence you, I suspect if the skiing kind of stunk, you wouldn't make the trip. I'm looking forward to your reply, and I'll be happy to follow up by answering these questions myself. In fact, why don't we really get the ball rolling and all answer these questions! I'll bet the marketing team will be looking closely at what you have to say. They sure as hell better be, cause the viability of this business depends on your answers.

random_ski_guy
01-04-2006, 10:21 PM
So has anyone emailed Win Smith and company about Ripcord and Stein's? I don't think answer matters, because the fact remains they haven't blown snow on these trails in the heart of the holiday ski season.

Lostone
01-04-2006, 10:23 PM
I'm looking forward to your reply, and I'll be happy to follow up by answering these questions myself. In fact, why don't we really get the ball rolling and all answer these questions!

Sounds like a new thread to me. :wink:

Mtnlady
01-05-2006, 06:37 AM
This forum - and RSN and AZ - is one of many sources for "taking the pulse" of satisfaction levels towards SB, viewed by many, posted by just a few. When I see something that needs answering, I answer. When I feel inadequate to the task, I seek answers for you elsewhere and relay or refer...

If you want absolute certainty that your concerns are being heard, e-mail those key people directly. The e-mail recipe is easier than easy -- first initial last name.sugarbush.com, no spacers.

Some of the points of view are very painful to see, especially when individuals or groups who work this hard and care this much get blasted.

And I do call in the bad-gun reports, having almost instanteous access to those calls via radio cantact with
ambassadors on terrain. And I also keep an ear to mtn radios all day and hear the back-and-forth between the guys at the nozzles and the guy dispatching the air & water - believe me, there is a dance to listen to...

If you are up there and find a probelm of any kind, get word to the nearest patrol. They respond or pass it along to someone who will check it out.

ski_resort_observer
01-05-2006, 08:35 AM
This forum - and RSN and AZ - is one of many sources for "taking the pulse" of satisfaction levels towards SB, viewed by many, posted by just a few. When I see something that needs answering, I answer. When I feel inadequate to the task, I seek answers for you elsewhere and relay or refer...

If you want absolute certainty that your concerns are being heard, e-mail those key people directly. The e-mail recipe is easier than easy -- first initial last name.sugarbush.com, no spacers.

Some of the points of view are very painful to see, especially when individuals or groups who work this hard and care this much get blasted.

And I do call in the bad-gun reports, having almost instanteous access to those calls via radio cantact with
ambassadors on terrain. And I also keep an ear to mtn radios all day and hear the back-and-forth between the guys at the nozzles and the guy dispatching the air & water - believe me, there is a dance to listen to...

If you are up there and find a probelm of any kind, get word to the nearest patrol. They respond or pass it along to someone who will check it out.

mtnlady....Thanks for the post but I think it's pretty obvious that these people just like to complain than make any effort to do anything about it.

random_ski_guy
01-05-2006, 09:25 AM
So what are we to do? Go down to the pump house, open the air and water lines on Ripcord and start blowing snow ourselves? Yes, I'll have gotten off my computer, but I'll also get arrested.

I think you are dead wrong to characterize this board as simply a bunch of complainers. Its obvious everyone in this small community has a great deal of passion and love for the 'bush. There are very few posts here that aren't thoughtful and considerate.

Sugarbush is still my favorite ski area in VT with or without snow on Ripcord. I think we all are just rightfully concerned (like doting parents) for our beloved mtn.

Most people here are drinking the same, 'love thy sugarbush kool aid', but perhaps your pour from the punch bowl is a good deal stronger than others.

TwinTipTele
01-05-2006, 09:45 AM
Quick response to all of this -

(Yes it's vague on purpose)

- Look for certain expert trails to come online in the near future.
- Any problems with certain guns on the mountain but not others - alert ski patrol, they have the radios and can contact those who can fix the problem.
- Snowmaking is measured by the amount of water converted to snow. By this measure, we are above production numbers from previous years.
- If you took all the days this season where we were making no snow and put them end to end, it wouldn't equal a week... Think about that.
- We were over 105 trails on 12/22 with powder/packed powder conditions on the entire resort.
- You as a skier are solely responisble for where you ski and skiing within your abilities under all conditions. Just because Birdland was in great shape doesn't mean it's safe to assume Murphy's would have identical snow. They are different trails, they are groomed at different times (how long the snow sets up and how warm/cold/moist the air is when the trial is groomed has a drastic effect on snow conditions in the morning). You can see Murphy's from the lift... could you not see that it was half groomed?

I am in no way an official voice for this resort, but as someone tied very closely to this place I can tell you that all 800+ Sugarbush employees work hard to make the most of the current snow conditions. This fresh snow will have a dramatic effect on the snow surface in the coming days. Have faith.

(Keep your eyes on the expert terrain for non-natural snow. It's not too far out, barring any unforeseen circumstances)

Pray for snow!

-TTT

Volkl Skier
01-05-2006, 10:10 AM
Quick response to all of this -

(Yes it's vague on purpose)

- Look for certain expert trails to come online in the near future.
- Any problems with certain guns on the mountain but not others - alert ski patrol, they have the radios and can contact those who can fix the problem.
- Snowmaking is measured by the amount of water converted to snow. By this measure, we are above production numbers from previous years.
- If you took all the days this season where we were making no snow and put them end to end, it wouldn't equal a week... Think about that.
- We were over 105 trails on 12/22 with powder/packed powder conditions on the entire resort.
- You as a skier are solely responisble for where you ski and skiing within your abilities under all conditions. Just because Birdland was in great shape doesn't mean it's safe to assume Murphy's would have identical snow. They are different trails, they are groomed at different times (how long the snow sets up and how warm/cold/moist the air is when the trial is groomed has a drastic effect on snow conditions in the morning). You can see Murphy's from the lift... could you not see that it was half groomed?

I am in no way an official voice for this resort, but as someone tied very closely to this place I can tell you that all 800+ Sugarbush employees work hard to make the most of the current snow conditions. This fresh snow will have a dramatic effect on the snow surface in the coming days. Have faith.

(Keep your eyes on the expert terrain for non-natural snow. It's not too far out, barring any unforeseen circumstances)

Pray for snow!

-TTT

Obviously they are using more water when they are spraying slush out of a bunch of guns....

The car analogy I posted above is a pretty good one, and yes the area is responsible to some extent. I didn't assume the snow was EXACTLY the same as birdland, I saw that birdland was in great shape, as was the top 1/3 of murphy's this with the addition that there were NO caution markings and the blue trail rating would indicate a relatively safe slope (which it was not)

I'm not here to suggest that the employee's of Sugarbush aren't doing their best, but understand when I screw up (as with most people hopefully) I don't go around blaming other people and critisizing my clients. I step up and let them know it won't happen again.

Treeskier
01-05-2006, 11:08 AM
Weekly topic: Snowmaking Plans

Going into the weekend, at Lincoln Peak we will move to Ripcord after finishing Birch Run. If temperatures are cold enough, we hope to also run on Stein's at the same time as Ripcord. At Mt. Ellen, we will finish snowmaking on Cliffs and then head for Exterminator. When we see a return to base area temperatures in the teens, we will also focus on terrain park expansion and Superpipe production at Mt. Ellen.



The attached file is a response from Win to an internet chat room with posters who speculated that Sugarbush has been making less snow this year. Besides demonstrating that this is simply not the case, Win's response also provides interesting information with respect to how we make operational decisions.



Hardy Merrill


YAH!

Snowing in Eastern MA.

Treeskier
01-05-2006, 11:13 AM
I would like to respond to the question of whether we are making less snow this year! In a word, “NO!”. We began snowmaking at Mount Ellen on November 9th and at Lincoln Peak on November 17th. This allowed us to open Mount Ellen as planned on November 19th. While Killington had opened for a couple of days after the early snow and then closed, Okemo was the first to open for the season on Friday, November 18th. When we opened a day later on the 19th , the only Mountains open in Vermont were Sugarbush, Killington and Okemo. We opened on schedule at Lincoln Peak on December 10th.

Since we started making snow, when temperatures permit we almost always run at full capacity at both mountains. Temperatures and humidity levels determine what the actual capacity is at any given moment. In fact, since we opened on November 19th, there have only been 6 days when we have not made snow and that was due to temperatures.

In order to get the Mountain ready for the Holidays we need to concentrate on those trails that will get the heaviest use. For instance, at Lincoln Peak having all of Gatehouse ready is important so that we have good teaching and beginner and intermediate terrain and can handle the traffic volume.

We also always try to ensure that we have good conditions on Organgrinder, Jester, Downspout, Birdland, Murphy’s, Upper Snowball and Spring Fling at Lincoln Peak and Elbow, Rim Run, Cruiser, North Star and Which Way at Mount Ellen. When we do not get early natural that lasts we have to focus snowmaking where it is most important for the most number of skiers and riders. It can take several days of concentrated snowmaking on large acreage trails to put them in the condition we want. Anyone who skied trails such as Organgrinder, Downspout, Birdland, Elbow, rim Run, Jester prior to the Christmas rain told us that the quality of the snowmaking was as good as they have seen. Hardy Merrill, Mike Wing and I are out almost every day to inspect the product that is being made, and we too were very pleased with the effort of the snowmaking team.

North Lynx, Ripcord and Stein’s are second priority trails and once we have the aforementioned trails in the shape we want them, we move over to them. In fact, this week we are making on Birch and will then most likely move over to Ripcord and will also go to Stein’s if temperatures allow. Of course, we will constantly reassess where snow is most needed.

Temperatures can vary widely on the Mountain. The difference between top and bottom can be over 10 degrees and that will determine where snow can be made on any given day. In the early part of the season it is also not unusual to experience an inversion where the top is actual warmer than the base area.

Snow production is measured in gallons of water pumped up the mountain and converted to snow. As of New Year’s Day this year, Sugarbush Resort’s total gallons of water pumped were actually slightly higher than it was the previous year (albeit a very small difference . . . less than 1%). So Sugarbush has simply not made less snow than last year.

While there are a miles of pipe and towers and snow guns around the mountain, they cannot all run simultaneously. At Lincoln Peak, we have over 800 hydrant locations, but our snowmaking system can only run between 35 and 80 snowguns at one time, depending on the temperature and type of snowgun. The colder it is, the more snowguns can be turned on, and the more snow each one can produce, up until the point at which we run out of water pumping capacity (typically in single digit temperatures). In warmer temperatures (above 15 degrees), we run out of compressed air capacity first, since it requires a greater amount of compressed air to convert a smaller amount of water to snow. The new nozzles were have purchased are most effective when temperatures are below twenty degrees.

With respect to the old diesel compressors that are now longer visible to the right of the Bravo lift: these were only auxiliary compressors rented and utilized for a small percentage of the year. Last year these compressors produced only 20% of Lincoln Peak’s total air production. Adding 230 low-energy snowgun heads (a $200,000 expenditure), each of which uses only a third of the compressed air that the old nozzles did, reduces our air production requirements to make the same amount of snow. With our new nozzles, our existing electric compressors (which produced 80% of our air last year) have more than enough capacity to maximize the volume of water that we can run at any time.

Our decision to invest in the new snowmaking technology was made with elimination of the diesel rental compressors as a goal, for a combination of reasons: for short and long-term cost benefits, because the diesel units are simply not environmentally friendly, and because reliance on petroleum for energy is not a sound plan for the future. However, investing capital in solutions that require less energy to achieve the same production is not just sound business sense, it is also an ethical imperative for any large consumer of energy. We are collectively faced with an energy crisis . . . our state, our country, and our planet. Utilizing technology to make snow using less energy is not only the smart thing to do, it is the ethically RIGHT thing to do.

It is also worth pointing out that our electrical energy costs are substantially higher than last year. We are only allowed to buy power from Green Mountain Power. While we contract with them at a wholesale rate, they have the ability to curtail us – meaning shut us down whenever they wish. Beginning in October they have curtailed us almost everyday for at least a few hours and sometimes for much of the day. Fortunately, we were able to negotiate the ability to “buy through” into the spot market and continue snowmaking. At times our energy cost per kilowatt-hour has more than doubled, and we anticipate that the electrical energy cost of running our snowmaking operation at the same level as last year will be 30% higher. On some days our snowmaking electricity cost reaches $30,000 per day. Even though our costs have risen, we have continued to make snow to our fullest capacity. There have been windows of time when we have even purchased power at 21 cents per kilowatt-hour-- over three times our normal rate—when temperatures were favorable enough to justify the cost. Power costs are painful, but our only recourse is to grin and bear it. And to ensure that this cost is being spent on the right trail areas at the right times.

Our snowmaking priorities are based on balancing the needs of our customers with weather conditions that change constantly. For Holiday Week, this meant returning with snowmaking to Pushover, Lower Pushover, Easy Rider, First Time and Sleeper instead of making snow on Stein’s Run and Ripcord. If it had not rained, we would have kept expanding coverage to the expert trails. Since it rained, we had to guarantee appropriate conditions on the Gatehouse pod and teaching areas. Novice-level families renting lodging and ski equipment and taking lessons do spend more money more visit than any other customer, and for the Holiday week we had to place meeting the needs of the large destination visitor segment above other priorities. These same customers had to be literally turned away from Sugarbush back in early December, when we had no novice terrain open. That was a result of our conscious decisions regarding snowmaking priorities: in early December, our visitor mix is biased to the season passholder with a higher ability level, who demands more advanced terrain, so as our first opening priorities we worked on the Bravo and Heaven’s Gate pods rather than Gatehouse.

I do take exception with the comment that the quality of the snowmaking has been mixed. I ski most days as does Hardy and Mike Wing our new Snow Manager, and we know first hand what occurs. Yes, we do find wet guns from time to time, but they are usually adjusted quickly, and I believe that overall the quality of the snowmaking this year has been the best in years. Many have who have skied here for years have told me that.

Friday was a most challenging day for us as well as everyone else in the Northeast. We had a plan that was developed at our daily snowplan the previous day. Temperatures did not allow our groomers to get on the mountain until 5am, but we started grooming Snowball, Spring Fling and Inverness and opened the Valley House and Inverness chairs at 8am. We moved over to the Gate House area and had those trails groomed and running by 9am and then we moved to the Bravo areas to groom, Lower Organgrinder, Downspout, Birdland, Lower Jester and Murphy’s Glades and had them ready by 11am.
I was very proud of what the team did that day. And by Saturday, the conditions were vastly improved and have continued to improve each day. The weather also cause some issue with the Gate House lift (rain and refreezing caused some components of the grip assemblies to crack), but those components were all replaced by the next day.

Snowmaking is a science that requires skill and attention. While we do make mistakes, I have full confidence in our team and I believe that when judged over the course of a season that they will deserve an “A”. If anyone would like to see first hand of snow making operations or discuss this is further detail, we would be pleased to do so.

Do think snow! Nothing beats the real stuff.

djspookman
01-05-2006, 11:18 AM
I will say it once again.. Hardy is the man!

dave

arc1
01-05-2006, 11:22 AM
3) Why would we touch Rip or Stein's when North Lynx isn't open, our existing trails need re-surfacing, and we're getting record crowds of people? The vast majority of skiers at SB can't ski Rip or Stein's. Granted, you and I can ski it, but let's face it, what good does it do for Ripcord to be sick when all the runs leading to and from it are horrendous? It's all about making the conditions as good as possible for as many people as possible, not catering to the select few who can ski steep bumps. Besides, they're both open now, and since they're both double black diamonds (and only experts should be on doubles), you can choose to ski them should you be an EXPERT. I'm not saying they're overly enjoyable right now, but that's a moot point.

If you really feel the need to complain about snowmaking/grooming/current conditions, look to MRG for a reality check. Our groomers and snowmakers work their asses off while you're sleeping to give you a surface that, at this point in time, is light years ahead of the stuff you'll find over at MRG. And have you noticed the copious amounts of rain and warm weather we've received over the last 2 weeks? Conditions have gone downhill since 12/23 - the day that it got warm and busy here at the resort. This past week has seen thaws/freezes, huge crowds, and rain. Where in that picture can you even feel justified in expecting a "great" snow surface? We could probably overcome one of those variables, but not all three at once. Ounce for ounce, dollar for dollar, we are offering as good or better snow surfaces than anyone else in this region (read: Stowe, Bolton, Smuggs). Rest assured that once the temps return consistently and we have a chance to work in some fresh/natural snow, things will improve dramatically and instantly. Have faith.


That's the most depressing thing I've read yet. Your head is in the sand dude. Why open Rips and Stein's? You've got to be kidding. Here you are, in the middle of the holidays with a captive audience who will decide whether or not to return,this year and/or next, who is being spoon fed the Claybrook thing, a high end deal for sure, and they hop on the lift, go by Stein's and see the forest of dead tower guns looming over rock, grass and ice. What do they think about this high end resort now? Organgrider is a freaking horrowshow of mixed skill mayhem so they figure a tour up top to Jester might be nice. Up HG they go, and are greeted by another dead forest of guns.

And for christsake don't try to compare us to MRG - 2 totally different beasts. And while I repect the snowmakers eforts while I sleep, be real about this. They get paid to do a low skill job under crappy conditions. I work while they sleep.

One last, but critcial thing. Everyone involved in running this place needs to stop hiding behind the weather. Historically, it was not that bad at all. We've all seen 50 degree flooding rains that literally wash snow and dirt down the access road. We had some 34 degree rain and didn't lose much cover. It is time to take some responsibility.

Repeat after me: We know the skiing sucks right now but we are doing what we can with limited resources. It is really expensive to make snow, and we just can't spend the money.

It's the money stupid.

2planker
01-05-2006, 11:45 AM
I agree with Arc1, the money is the stumbling block for Summit. I heard the Stowe ad this morning on the radio - they are talking about the "new" Spruce Peak - but the big push was the 111 million gallon snow pond and the state of the art fully automated snow making system. AIG is one of the largest corporations in the world and they can afford it, Summit cannot. I hope Claybrook gives them the money, but I am afraid it will not be enough.

ski_resort_observer
01-05-2006, 11:57 AM
:) Thanks Tree for forwarding Hardy's and Win's report/response! It's snowing today here in Maine and according to the valley webcam brought to you by those fine folks at the MRV Chamber it is snowing at the Bush as well. It's all good. Were they from the Bush's employee newsletter? I used to actually read that thing. :lol:

Tin Woodsman
01-05-2006, 12:12 PM
Treeskier -

Where did those notes come from? Were they PMs/e-mails from Hardy and Win or via an intermediary? Regardless, that's great stuff. Good to see that the powers that be are listening. For my part, I will in fact take it upon my self to contact ski patrol when I see an obviously wet gun. Have to walk the talk.

And great news re: North Lynx, Ripcord and Steins. I figured those were next in line - that holiday week weather really set us back.

smootharc
01-05-2006, 01:36 PM
....concern and responsiveness from the SV/SB "inside" folks. Hat's off...I think they are showing they do care and that a heck of a lot of effort and $$ is going into their approach. I hope they will continue to chip in with their take on things.

All in all, I feel the discussions have been informative, basically civil, and productive.

And, yes, I'm hoping Mother Nature will do her part. Nothing like seeing silent snow guns covered deep in the real stuff.....

Schusseur
01-05-2006, 07:56 PM
Ok, pass the peace pipe. Thanks for the response Win - I think most of us here believe you're doing the best you can, and we all see you guys out there on the slopes. Riding up the lifts with you, Adam and Bob is actually kind of unique in skidom, ie, if you've got something to say, go see the man, he's just over there. Now, about that Gate House food...

KingM
01-05-2006, 09:02 PM
Great post, Treeskier. Very interesting.

Like I said earlier, I didn't ski Christmas week, but I thought the conditions yesterday were great considering we hadn't had more than two flakes of natural snow since last week's rain. Within 24 hours after the second rainfall last week guests were saying that the conditions had improved immeasurably. This can only be due to skilled snowmaking and grooming on Sugarbush's part.

I'm also impressed by how well you're handling the construction year. I was expecting the base to be a mess but the temp structures and such are working out really well, I think. I haven't heard one complaint about the construction or parking issues from our guests.

My only complaint is that they'd lost my pass when I went to the SB Inn to get it yesterday, but they issued me a one-day lift ticket, so I'm good for now, assuming they can find it soon. :wink:

Lostone
01-05-2006, 10:00 PM
Repeat after me: We know the skiing sucks right now :shock:


Have you been here? I agree there are some trails that are really bad, but there is a lot of skiing for most people. And although there have been a couple very poor days, most have had some pretty good skiing.

It is New England warm spell recovery good, as opposed to all natural, couple inches of new every night good, but they didn't get to choose.

Treeskier, Thanx for the reply from Winn. Lotsa great info there.

And today, they set up the big snowgun. Didn't make a lot. Just a few inches, but on all the trails. Everyone I met said that skiing was.... ok. :wink:

random_ski_guy
01-05-2006, 11:17 PM
Some thoughts on Mgmt's frank and informative post;

i) Ripcord. This is a high capacity run that can soak up hundreds of expert skiers an hr. No doubt, U&L Jester, Birdland and other blues and greens are a priority over Ripcord, but nevertheless you need to get Ripcord open by Dec 26th. Its the big holiday weekend and having Ripcord open does a great deal to alleviate stress on Domino and soak up experts skiers in general. Question for the highly experienced SB skier, if SB converted the same amount of water this year, what trails got snow in lieu of Ripcord?

ii) Early Season Snowmaking. I couldn't agree more with Win on this. Make snow on the key arteries both blue and black (green too, if they are key linkages) in the eary season since pass holders and non family types tend to dominate the Nov-Dec 20th scene. Elevation and the ability to hold snow are important considerations too. This area SB has done well IMHO.

iii) Steins. I agree that Steins, in the entire realm of trails at SB South, is a third waive snowmaking prority. My concern is that you have a great new real estate project under construction at the base which is not yet sold out. You still need to make a strong impression on these potential investors as they ponder a substantial commitment to your resort. Having snow on Steins and Ripcord (without taking snow away from any other trail) goes a long way in demonstrating SB is capable of delivering the manmade goods in a time of little natural. In other words, 'hey your 700k (assuming you bought all four 1/4 shares) is worthwhile even in the age of global warming because we can deliver the faux white.'

iv) Power Shortage. Yikes, its critical to find a way to resolve this matter. While I suggested a private generator on another post, what really needs to be done is at the state and federal government level. SB is surely not in alone in this devasting handicap. Working around the weather is hard enough, compound that with outrageous utility pricing spikes and enegery shortfalls and you are really hamstrung. I have no qualms with nuclear (joke).

v) 35-80 guns. This is really far to little capacity in the modern age of skiing. I suspect the lack of a significant snowmaking resevoir has a great deal to do with SB's failure to further expand its up hill pumping and air compressor capacity. Looking around, it doesn't appear there are too many obvious sites for a 100MM+ gallon pond, but then again VT has witness some clever resourcefulness in this area. Killington has tapped in the Woodward Res. and Mt Snow is seeking to tap the Somerset (perhaps this has happened). Then you have Okemo who constructed a super pond at least 1.5 miles (or more?) from its south ridge area. If you had a 100MM gallon pond coupled with a 10.000 gallons of uphill capacity you could run 125 eighty gallon per minute guns for 6.94 days straight. Wow, that would open some serious terrain....in Okemo quanities...but it would be at SB instead.

vi) with all that, i hope it snows tonight

waiting to be corrected.
-random

arc1
01-06-2006, 09:13 AM
Repeat after me: We know the skiing sucks right now :shock:


Have you been here? I agree there are some trails that are really bad, but there is a lot of skiing for most people. And although there have been a couple very poor days, most have had some pretty good skiing.

It is New England warm spell recovery good, as opposed to all natural, couple inches of new every night good, but they didn't get to choose.

Treeskier, Thanx for the reply from Winn. Lotsa great info there.

And today, they set up the big snowgun. Didn't make a lot. Just a few inches, but on all the trails. Everyone I met said that skiing was.... ok. :wink:

Yes I have been 'here'. I'm invested in passes. programs and property at the Bush. I just can't figure out why some folks can't, or won't, see the obvious.

Tin Woodsman
01-06-2006, 10:09 AM
Some thoughts on Mgmt's frank and informative post;

i) Ripcord. This is a high capacity run that can soak up hundreds of expert skiers an hr. No doubt, U&L Jester, Birdland and other blues and greens are a priority over Ripcord, but nevertheless you need to get Ripcord open by Dec 26th. Its the big holiday weekend and having Ripcord open does a great deal to alleviate stress on Domino and soak up experts skiers in general. Question for the highly experienced SB skier, if SB converted the same amount of water this year, what trails got snow in lieu of Ripcord?

I'd agree that this is a pretty important trail as much visually (right under HG) as it is practically. But the real problem seems to be...



v) 35-80 guns. This is really far to little capacity in the modern age of skiing. I suspect the lack of a significant snowmaking resevoir has a great deal to do with SB's failure to further expand its up hill pumping and air compressor capacity. Looking around, it doesn't appear there are too many obvious sites for a 100MM+ gallon pond, but then again VT has witness some clever resourcefulness in this area. Killington has tapped in the Woodward Res. and Mt Snow is seeking to tap the Somerset (perhaps this has happened). Then you have Okemo who constructed a super pond at least 1.5 miles (or more?) from its south ridge area. If you had a 100MM gallon pond coupled with a 10.000 gallons of uphill capacity you could run 125 eighty gallon per minute guns for 6.94 days straight. Wow, that would open some serious terrain....in Okemo quanities...but it would be at SB instead.

That does seem like a pretty modest amount of guns. From what I could tell from Win's response, it seems that the bottlenecks are different depending upon the temperature. In cold weather, it's water pumping capacity (not necessarily water scarcity) while in warmer weather it's compressed air. I know snowmaking is expensive, and the new nozzles are certainly a good move, but it would seem to me that if you only miss 6 days of snowmaking between 11/19 and 1/5 that you should be able to cover just about everything sufficiently. Mea culpa - I'm likely talking out of my behind b/c I'n not a mountain ops guy and I don't play one on TV. But no one is expecting SB to fire up the guns on Lower Birdland or drag them through the woods over to Hammerhead like last year (great job on that , BTW). Ripcord, Lower Snowball, and to a lesser extent Stein's are a little more core, IMHO.

Whatever - it is what it is right now and we're all praying for snow. I do hope that somewhere in the planning process is a plan to increase snowmaking capacity on the existing footprint while keeping the existing natural trails as is. Lay that base down deep and quick, and let Mother Nature take its course thereafter. Heck, you'd probably save money on the snowmaking guys if you raise system productivity to the point where you've got all the snow you'll need by X-Mas or MLK day.

random_ski_guy
01-06-2006, 10:53 AM
"I do hope that somewhere in the planning process is a plan to increase snowmaking capacity on the existing footprint while keeping the existing natural trails as is. "

Couldn't agree with you more on that point. They really don't need to expand snowmaking on a number of runs basis at all (well perhaps on Moonshine and Twist if they ever upgrade the VH double but thats a different string all together), just more capacity on what they have. I know its expensive, but its also critical.

Otherwise, the existing footprint is the perfect balance...yet another one of SB's great attributes, the perfect mix of natural snow and man made snow trails.

Tin Woodsman
01-06-2006, 11:18 AM
Couldn't agree with you more on that point. They really don't need to expand snowmaking on a number of runs basis at all (well perhaps on Moonshine and Twist if they ever upgrade the VH double but thats a different string all together), just more capacity on what they have. I know its expensive, but its also critical.

Don't do it. Don't even think about it. These two are gems. Yes, they can be cranky and poorly covered at times, but when they're good they are off the charts. The Mall too. They are relatively narrow, so you'd starting killing the trees on either side pretty quickly, widening them out unintentionally, sure inevitably. And you'd quickly kill off the remnants of the once great glade on Lower Moonshine. That HSQ idea for VH is one of the worst I've heard.



Otherwise, the existing footprint is the perfect balance...yet another one of SB's great attributes, the perfect mix of natural snow and man made snow trails.

Random has a bingo.

random_ski_guy
01-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Quote:

Otherwise, the existing footprint is the perfect balance...yet another one of SB's great attributes, the perfect mix of natural snow and man made snow trails.



Random has a bingo.

-thanks Tin Woodsman. We'll talk more about the VH double another day. I have to reski this area of the mtn and think about this whole trail pod again.

beelze
01-10-2006, 10:02 PM
Yes I have been 'here'. I'm invested in passes. programs and property at the Bush. I just can't figure out why some folks can't, or won't, see the obvious.

Here Here. Lets not forget the premium we now pay over Killington for season passes.. was about oh $300 bucks this year? Or how annoyed we were when visitors from Killington commented they were surprised our cover was much less than theirs?

And now that a few have stroked (fawned over?) the managment response -

I do take exception with the comment that the quality of the snowmaking has been mixed. I ski most days as does Hardy and Mike Wing our new Snow Manager, and we know first hand what occurs. Yes, we do find wet guns from time to time, but they are usually adjusted quickly, and I believe that overall the quality of the snowmaking this year has been the best in years. Many have who have skied here for years have told me that.

Denial. Why is is so difficult for you to ever a) admit you might be wrong and b) swallow your pride and respond to the customer in a positive way? You basically just said all those saying the snowmaking has been bad/mixed/not as good as they expect/<insert comment here> are either liars, ignorant or just plain dumb you know whats.

Further - just because management claims XYZ does not make it so. Have you made more snow? You claim to have, yet sure seems some people disagree. Will we ever know the real numbers? No, because they have to come from a management which many people do not trust anymore. You are in a service industry and perception is what matters. If your customers perceive your product to be lacking or inferior to your competitors, they will be unhappy (or worse, leave) regardless of how much you try to claim it is not the case.

Tin Woodsman
02-24-2006, 04:54 PM
Quick question re: snowmaking.

I noticed that the website was indicating Lower Moonshine was getting blasted the last day or two? Given that there are no pipes there, how is that being accomplished? I guess they might drag the hoses/guns through the woods ala Cliffs>Hammerhead last year. OTOH, the website currently indicates that Lower Twist is being hit. I could almost envision Lower Moonshine, but Lower Twist? How exactly is that being done? It's got to be hundreds of yards from the nearest snowmaking hydrant.

Regardless of the answer, kudos to SB and the snowmaking team for continuinig to pour it on in the midst of a VERY trying season.

Lostone
02-24-2006, 06:41 PM
I got your answer right here: :shock:


:oops: Ok... so you have the answer. :roll: That is what they did. And they also did it on Bravo, too.

But the snowmaking they did today... That was really nice! :D

Plowboy
02-24-2006, 09:35 PM
And they also did it on Bravo, too.

The steep pitch on Bravo has pipes. Lower twist is also piped.