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View Full Version : Official Sugarbush Development/Expansion Thread



Tin Woodsman
11-20-2005, 11:43 PM
I thought it might be a good idea to have an omnibus thread devoted to discussion, analysis, opinion, idle speculation and, sometimes even hard information on Sugarbush's development plans for the base area and mountain itself. To get things started, I'll summarize the current plans as I understand them so we can all be on the same page as to what lies ahead.

Clay Brook
Rising like a Phoenix from the ashes of its two failed predecessors, the ASC Grand Summit and the Lodge at Lincoln Peak, Clay Brook is a luxury fractional ownership/hotel lodging facility that will anchor the South side of the new base area at Lincoln Peak. It's going to be huge and take up most of the space where the first parking bay was until last year. They are going with a design that evokes (some say too much and too awkwardly) a Vermont farm/barn type of feel. Costing about $50MM, this structure will be about half the size of previous attemps and is likely, IMHO, to fit into the fabric of the valley and the base area much better than its ancestors. It certainly represents a much smarter path for Summit Ventures to take than previous attempts. No need for them to put all their chips in one basket with the massive $100MM Lodge concept. They still have the land to develop where the lodge was to be, so they can build another lodging property there is Clay Brook succeeds. So far, things look pretty good with committed buyers for over 50% of the units, though this doesn't compare favorably with the pace of sales for units in Stowe's new village (among other locations) AFAIK. Clay Book construction is underway and is projected to be finished for the winter of 2006/2007. IIRC, it will included limited retail space along with the ski patrol HQ in the faux silo. Maybe a restaurant too?

Skier Services Building
This long-needed facility, originally planned to be built this summer, will now go in next summer due to an unanticipated delay in receiving Act 250 approval from the state of VT. This is a fantastic idea for a bldg that will combine children's programs, the ski school, rentals, a nursey school, season pass/ticketing, racing programs, and whatever other programs/snowsports you can imagine. It will be a great vehicle, IMHO, to get many families out of the overcrowded base lodge facilities and to provide them with their own dedicated facility. This will be a real winner, IMHO. There will also be limited retail in this facility, as I understand it. It will be located just SE of the loading are for the Gate House and will be close to the new Magic Carpet and teaching area, thereby removing this area from the overcrowded space between the two current lodges. This building is scheduled to begin construction next Spring for completion by next winter if I'm not mistaken.

New Gate House Lodge
I'm not sure on timing, but I believe the new Gate House lodge is slated for construction either summer 2006 or summer 2007. I suppose it might depend on how successful sales are at Clay Brook and what can be afforded. Anyway, details on this structure are sketchy but it will likely double in size at least, especially since SB plans to demolish the Valley House lodge. The gran pland, perhaps planned for completion in the summer of 2007 or 2008, is to shut VH loadge down nd then extend the VH chair down close to where the rental bldg was the last few years (just East of the Bravo loading area). I guess the idea is to centralize all activity it he new village core, which is great. By building the new skiers services bldg and perhaps doubling the size of the GH lodge, you would end up with much more net day lodge space. Due to SB's excellent and efficient lift and trail system, this is the chief constraint on its skiers visits, as anyone who's tried to get a seat at lunch in a holiday or other busy weekend can attest to.

One potential negative associated with this plan is the possibiliy of the VH lift being replaced with a HSQ. Many of the renderings for this lift indicate a HSQ in place of the current, historic double. The idea behind extending the lift, is to help carry traffic out of the base area. The BRavo lift and GH can get overloaded, especially dueing the morning and early afternoon rush hours. Having a third lift to carry traffic out of there would be advisable. That said, the limited unloading area at the top of the VH lift and the limited, non-snowmaking trial system in that area essentially mandate, IMHO, that the lift remain a double. A HSQ was create a disaster at the confluence of VH traverse, Mthe Mall and Spring Fling, an already challenging spot with only a 2/3 full double chair. Whether the lift is fixed grip or detatchable is irrelevant to me as they generally have the saem capacity, but I can't see anything more than a triple being advisable from a safety and guest enjoyment (of the snow and trails) perspective. SB need not emulate its large neighbors to the South (K-Mart, Okemo, Stratton) by going for lift capacity at the expense of the skiing experience. Twist, Mall, and Moonshine are natural snow classics that can't handle much more traffic. Snowball and Spring Fling are almost always used for NASTAR etc.., eliminating a lot of room to roam for the intermediates who go that way. You don't want more people over there.

Anyway, that's about all the pieces I know of. There is speculation that SB wil add a lot more tree areas to the map, though they won't be official runs - somethign akin to MRG though they aren't on the map there. We'll see.

It's my understanding that SB is engaged in an ongoing dialogue with the USFS to expand its presence and activities int the Slide Brook Basin. The Outback tours into there have become increasingly popular. So much so that it is difficult to get a seat on the bus back to LP on many weekend afternoons in Feburary and March. To the extent possible within the law and within the bounds of SBS relaitonship with the USFS, it would be great to step of frequency of service from the SB Road lot. I guess that will play out over the course of a few years.

Anyone else here anything else, or have comments/corections on the info above?

Lostone
11-21-2005, 08:22 AM
I'll be back in a bit to answer, but now I'm getting ready to head up to the mountain to remind myself that the pointy end goes forward. :D

Just a quick point is that you should swap the Gatehouse lodge and guest services village, in timing.

They are hoping to do the lodge, next year.

ski_resort_observer
11-21-2005, 12:40 PM
Wow, great job Tin!

I would love to see a nice skating rink at the base possibly between the LP base area and Sugarbush Village. While the Bush has little financial interest in SV alot of their guests stay there and need more non-ski activities.

Twice ASC tried to do a skating rink but failed miserably. The last try, filling in part of a tennis court near the SHARK was a pathetic attempt.

There is alot of unused terrain between Castlerock and Heaven's Gate lifts. Would putting in some new MRG type terrain work here, taking up just a portion of that land and staying away from everyone fav stashes.

Strat
11-21-2005, 03:14 PM
There is alot of unused terrain between Castlerock and Heaven's Gate lifts. Would putting in some new MRG type terrain work here, taking up just a portion of that land and staying away from everyone fav stashes.

Will absolutely never happen... would run over way too many stashes, plus there's that rather big rock in the middle...

Tin Woodsman
11-21-2005, 03:43 PM
Wow, great job Tin!

I would love to see a nice skating rink at the base possibly between the LP base area and Sugarbush Village. While the Bush has little financial interest in SV alot of their guests stay there and need more non-ski activities.

Twice ASC tried to do a skating rink but failed miserably. The last try, filling in part of a tennis court near the SHARK was a pathetic attempt.

There is alot of unused terrain between Castlerock and Heaven's Gate lifts. Would putting in some new MRG type terrain work here, taking up just a portion of that land and staying away from everyone fav stashes.

Skating rink takes up too much valuable land probably, and like you said, Summit Ventures has little financial interest in SB Village. My guess is that such a thing is a few years away. Wouldn't be a bad idea though. You could do nighttime tubing and skating in that area or something.

As for a lift in the area you describe - as Strat pointed out, you couldn't string a lift up that would avoid stashes there. Access is easy enough via HG and CR lifts, so not really an issue anyway. I'd much rather see a lift in the Slide Brook or Lockwood Brook basins, but that will never happen. :evil: :evil:

ski_resort_observer
11-21-2005, 04:54 PM
Wasn't talking about a new lift, just some new terrain as you pointed out there is already easy acces from both sides already.

I too would be very surprised if the FS allowed any kind of ski terrain development in Slidebrook. The Vermont/national enviro groups were pretty upset when the lift was allowed to cross the bottom of the basin. To be honest, personally speaking, I too would like to see the Slidebrook area remain wild or at least mostly wild.

What about the backside of Lincoln? People do ski it. I remember a few years ago some kids went down to the bottom, ended up at the Starksboro General Store, walked in and asked "when does the Sugarbush shuttle come by". :lol:

Lostone
11-21-2005, 05:15 PM
I think the forest service is also the limiting factor to cutting new trails between C_Rock and Heaven's Gate. That is all forest service owned, and only leased by Sugarbush.

I think any trails would cut entirely across everyone's stashes, in the area.

Plus there are those big rocks... :?


.

ski_resort_observer
11-21-2005, 05:43 PM
Pretty much anything done at the Bush involves the Forest Service. I get it about the rocks but they are not in the middle but on the south side of the land we are taking about and are up high so they really would not be a factor if you removed some trees, not cut an open trail, and opened some more terrain to the public off of CR Trail on the CR side. Remember we are talking about MRG type of terrain. I don't want to open up a big can of worms regarding people's stashes so I will agree that it will probably never happen.

Speaking of the Forest Service there is an interesting story how the FS ended up with this land and leased it to Sugarbush. The family of the gentleman who gave the land to the FS is still very upset that the FS let the land be developed into a ski resort. They have sued the FS on the grounds that this was not intent of the gift. Wonder if it's still in litigation. Obviously the FS can't go remove Sugarbush so most people think the family is just trying to get some big bucks out of the deal.

Does anyone know the details?

Tin Woodsman
11-21-2005, 07:02 PM
I highly doubt that it would be possible to cut even official or semi-official gladed runs in this area. The only access is via the Long Trail, so there is probably some sort of prohibition right there. At the end of the day, there is plenty of terrain in there for those who want to find it. Putting it on the map would just encourage Joe and Sue gaper to ski on in so they could tell everyone back at the office that they did it. That would be a lousy result for all concerned.

skibum1321
11-30-2005, 08:38 AM
To be perfectly honest I don't want to see another trail or glade added to the map. I think people should be forced to find the good runs. For example, even though Exterminator Woods were well known, they were awesome and far less skied when they weren't on the map. By putting something on the map, it attracts the people that don't know where anything is at the resort and wouldn't otherwise find it. It also causes them to thin out or ruin lines that have been worked on for years. Nothing but bad news in my opinion. Even if they could I wouldn't want them to touch Slidebrook.

kcyanks1
11-30-2005, 03:48 PM
There is alot of unused terrain between Castlerock and Heaven's Gate lifts. Would putting in some new MRG type terrain work here, taking up just a portion of that land and staying away from everyone fav stashes.

Will absolutely never happen... would run over way too many stashes, plus there's that rather big rock in the middle...

ASC actually planned to develop glade skiing in that area including some that appeared to be in the vicinity of The Church (I think that big rock is commonly known enough that we can mention it without breaking any rules :-) ). The proposed traverse to get out to the glade skiing seemed to be a little bit downhill of the Long Trail, though, so perhaps the glade skiing actually would be below that big rock - I doubt they would have any endorsed skiing go near it due to fear of liability when someone gets hurt.

There's a picture of the plans on snowboarder757's website (who might even be posting here, I think he posted at AZ) (http://www.geocities.com/romulus757/images/expansionplans.gif).

Tin Woodsman
11-30-2005, 04:01 PM
ASC actually planned to develop glade skiing in that area including some that appeared to be in the vicinity of The Church (I think that big rock is commonly known enough that we can mention it without breaking any rules :-) ). The proposed traverse to get out to the glade skiing seemed to be a little bit downhill of the Long Trail, though, so perhaps the glade skiing actually would be below that big rock - I doubt they would have any endorsed skiing go near it due to fear of liability when someone gets hurt.

There's a picture of the plans on snowboarder757's website (who might even be posting here, I think he posted at AZ) (http://www.geocities.com/romulus757/images/expansionplans.gif).

Thanks for posting that. Definitely looks like the traverse would have aimed for below the cliff, sort of to where the snowfield is below the main Church entrance.

Other items of note:

- extension of Spillsville to HG chair

- new trail between Downspout and Domino

- several other official gladed areas, most of which came into fruition

random_ski_guy
12-03-2005, 03:11 PM
that expansion plan map posted at the geocities site is kool, any idea if this reflects the final expansion plan approved by the forest service? adding a trail between domino and downspout should help alleviate traffic on domino. extending spillsville would be dynomite as long as they maintained the same narrowish width of 'upper' spillsville.

kcyanks1
12-03-2005, 03:33 PM
that expansion plan map posted at the geocities site is kool, any idea if this reflects the final expansion plan approved by the forest service? adding a trail between domino and downspout should help alleviate traffic on domino. extending spillsville would be dynomite as long as they maintained the same narrowish width of 'upper' spillsville.

This was an old plan from when ASC owned the resort. I don't think it corresponds to any current plan, though the current management may end up making some of the same changes. Lostone or someone else might have better info.

I would love Spillsville to be lengthed (at the same width, of course) - though wasn't Spillsville longer in the pre-Ripcord days, and Ripcord now covers where Spillsville used to be (and is much wider)? I didn't ski at SB before Ripcord, so I'm not going from first-hand knowledge here.

Also, am I reading that map correctly in thinking that they were proposing putting snowmaking on Spillsville? That would probably ruin it. Why make it longer if they are taking away the fun? :-(

Lostone
12-03-2005, 05:25 PM
I would like to see that expansion plan. Is it on Strat's site? Could you post a link?

As for trail expansions, I've heard it said many times that there is no plan for addittional trails.

What is more, anyplace you decide to put in a trail will be taking soneone's favorite stash. :wink:

There is lots of skiing at Sugarbush! You can get around Deathspout, and I know a lot of people that almost always do. :)

random_ski_guy
12-03-2005, 07:36 PM
here's the link again as posted by kcyank1 earlier

http://www.geocities.com/romulus757/images/expansionplans.gif

Lostone
12-03-2005, 08:18 PM
If I understand what I'm seeing there, those trails are marked as tree skiing, and they're all open. The one between Domino and Downspout is Lew's line. To the right of Murphy's Glades is Egan's woods and the Paradise woods are too heavily opened up. (IMNATHO)

Of course, they have the skiing going right thru to Castlerock, and there are a couple of interesting terrain things there. :wink:

thanx for the link, and that is Strat's site. (Guess I haven't been there for a while? :roll: :wink: )

Strat
12-03-2005, 10:30 PM
That is the OLD site... wrote it up when I was 13 or so, was posted on the RSN forums... long before I cut it down to its current condition of just old trail maps (and a few other images)...

The new site is www.geocities.com/sugarbushhistory

I do have that expansion plan there as well, direct link is

http://geocities.com/sugarbushhistory/images/expansionplans.gif

Frankly I didn't really want the old address to circulate... it shows a much less "mature" me, haha...

Oh, and regarding my multiple personas - that's just my evolution of internet presences over the last few years... original site url (romulus757) was an evolution from Romulus, my first name (I've been on the internet since I was a REAL wee young'in, 9 maybe)... added the 757 for an email address (765 was taken) and that came with me when I made it snowboarder for the RSN forums... got into more forums as I got older, started playing guitar, and Strat was born... think I'll stick with this one for quite some time... *Not that anyone cares about my whole internet history, but having a little nostalgia for myself I suppose, while clearing up the 757/Strat ambiguity...*

kcyanks1
12-04-2005, 09:16 AM
That is the OLD site... wrote it up when I was 13 or so, was posted on the RSN forums... long before I cut it down to its current condition of just old trail maps (and a few other images)...

The new site is www.geocities.com/sugarbushhistory

I do have that expansion plan there as well, direct link is

http://geocities.com/sugarbushhistory/images/expansionplans.gif

Frankly I didn't really want the old address to circulate... it shows a much less "mature" me, haha...

Sorry about that :-) I've had the link bookmarked for years!


Oh, and regarding my multiple personas - that's just my evolution of internet presences over the last few years... original site url (romulus757) was an evolution from Romulus, my first name (I've been on the internet since I was a REAL wee young'in, 9 maybe)... added the 757 for an email address (765 was taken) and that came with me when I made it snowboarder for the RSN forums... got into more forums as I got older, started playing guitar, and Strat was born... think I'll stick with this one for quite some time... *Not that anyone cares about my whole internet history, but having a little nostalgia for myself I suppose, while clearing up the 757/Strat ambiguity...*

I had thought that the creator of the site posted at AZ regularly and figured he posted here as well, but wasn't sure about the naming evolution... The original site is great, by the way, even if you preferred to have it covered up. Please don't take it down now since I spread the link :-)

kcyanks1
12-04-2005, 09:18 AM
Please don't take it down now since I spread the link :-)

Well just looked at your new site, and that seems to have all the info and be just as good. Thanks for the new link!

kcyanks1
12-04-2005, 09:21 AM
If I understand what I'm seeing there, those trails are marked as tree skiing, and they're all open. The one between Domino and Downspout is Lew's line. To the right of Murphy's Glades is Egan's woods and the Paradise woods are too heavily opened up. (IMNATHO)

Of course, they have the skiing going right thru to Castlerock, and there are a couple of interesting terrain things there. :wink:

thanx for the link, and that is Strat's site. (Guess I haven't been there for a while? :roll: :wink: )

There are new trails marked as tree skiing (filled in with little circles), but the areas filled in with vertical lines are "Proposed Snowmaking" examples. It seems to me - and perhaps I'm reading it wrong - that Spillsville is covered proposed new snowmaking, unless they were adding some other trail between Organgrinder and Ripcord and putting new snomaking on that trail.

Even though the skiing of off Paradise is widely known, putting in a traverse like that would definitely change things, IMO. It would probably get even more crowded.

Strat
12-04-2005, 10:02 AM
Please don't take it down now since I spread the link :-)

Well just looked at your new site, and that seems to have all the info and be just as good. Thanks for the new link!

You're welcome... the new one is a bit more streamlined, some more correct info since I last updated the old one... only thing missing is my sarcastic little "Trail Name Origins" page, but that's not really that important...

kcyanks1
12-04-2005, 11:02 AM
Please don't take it down now since I spread the link :-)

Well just looked at your new site, and that seems to have all the info and be just as good. Thanks for the new link!

You're welcome... the new one is a bit more streamlined, some more correct info since I last updated the old one... only thing missing is my sarcastic little "Trail Name Origins" page, but that's not really that important...

Yeah, the new one does have a more polished look. The old one also had more pictures of Church (http://www.geocities.com/romulus757/churchphotos.html - I figure you won't be upset about the publicity since I've already linked it once in this thread :-) ) which were cool. But I particularly like all the old trail maps and the ASC plan that we've been talking about in this thread, and you have all of that moved over.

Strat
12-04-2005, 11:23 AM
Most of those photos of the Church don't even show that much, haha... just been reading over the site, realizing I haven't read it in quite some time... can't believe how bad my editing skills were!

kcyanks1
12-04-2005, 12:53 PM
Most of those photos of the Church don't even show that much, haha... just been reading over the site, realizing I haven't read it in quite some time... can't believe how bad my editing skills were!

You gave some pretty good hints where the Church is, though. (I personally don't have any problem with that, especially something that well known.) I like the pics on the old site though even - I use them to try to prove to cousins who ski more out west that eastern skiing can be plenty challenging. And Church is really too challenging for me - the only time I went there I went way down to the side where the drop was more like 8 feet than the 25 or 30 feet or whatever it is off the top. So I cheated in a big way ... and was still scared, though I'd do it again. Need to get over my fears (though I don't ever plan to go off the top).

kcyanks1
12-04-2005, 12:53 PM
Most of those photos of the Church don't even show that much, haha... just been reading over the site, realizing I haven't read it in quite some time... can't believe how bad my editing skills were!

You gave some pretty good hints where the Church is, though. (I personally don't have any problem with that, especially something that well known.) I like the pics on the old site. I use them to try to prove to cousins who ski more out west that eastern skiing can be plenty challenging. And Church is really too challenging for me - the only time I went there I went way down to the side where the drop was more like 8 feet than the 25 or 30 feet or whatever it is off the top. So I cheated in a big way ... and was still scared, though I'd do it again. Need to get over my fears (though I don't ever plan to go off the top).

Strat
12-04-2005, 01:49 PM
Like I said on the site, there's not too many massive rock faces just hanging around Sugarbush... and it's not like your average yahoo is going to venture out to a big set of cliffs like they might a chute or something anyway...

skibum1321
12-04-2005, 06:17 PM
Most of those photos of the Church don't even show that much, haha... just been reading over the site, realizing I haven't read it in quite some time... can't believe how bad my editing skills were!

You gave some pretty good hints where the Church is, though. (I personally don't have any problem with that, especially something that well known.) I like the pics on the old site. I use them to try to prove to cousins who ski more out west that eastern skiing can be plenty challenging. And Church is really too challenging for me - the only time I went there I went way down to the side where the drop was more like 8 feet than the 25 or 30 feet or whatever it is off the top. So I cheated in a big way ... and was still scared, though I'd do it again. Need to get over my fears (though I don't ever plan to go off the top).
I've only dropped the big one once. I usually take the ladies tee unless there is alot of powder.

random_ski_guy
12-04-2005, 08:27 PM
thanks to strat's website site i'm headed to the church tomorrow to launch some big air. never would have found it otherwise. :D

Lostone
12-04-2005, 09:09 PM
thanks to strat's website site i'm headed to the church tomorrow to launch some big air.

If I knew you would be there, I would take the day off from skiing just to take pix. :shock: :lol:

kcyanks1
12-04-2005, 10:50 PM
thanks to strat's website site i'm headed to the church tomorrow to launch some big air.

If I knew you would be there, I would take the day off from skiing just to take pix. :shock: :lol:

He'd make you go first. Have to check if the few inches down there is enough of a landing :-)

Tin Woodsman
12-05-2005, 09:51 AM
So I was up at North on Sunday and stopped into the Glen House for a quick bite. Got into a conversation with the manager b/c I noticed some interesting new (to me) menu options up there. Three new types of pita: lamb/tzatziki, bbq pork, and chicken w/ peppers/onions. Didn't sample it, but it sounds delicious. I guesss they debuted mid-season last year which is why I didn't know about them (didn't ski at North 2nd half of the season).

But I also heard some disconcerting news. I had previously heard that a Waffle Haus was going in at Allyn's Lodge at South. I was pretty excited about this b/c not only would this be a great snack for the morning, but would also alleviate the crowding problems they experienced at that facility in the last few years when it gets cold. Well, I found out that the Waffle Haus will be inside Allyn's Lodge and will replace whatever food options they had there previously. Basically, they will not really solve the crowding problem and will in addition be left with a narrow, unimaginative menu (waffles, water and soda). Booooo! That really seem seams like a lousy idea to me.

skibum1321
12-05-2005, 11:35 AM
So I was up at North on Sunday and stopped into the Glen House for a quick bite. Got into a conversation with the manager b/c I noticed some interesting new (to me) menu options up there. Three new types of pita: lamb/tzatziki, bbq pork, and chicken w/ peppers/onions. Didn't sample it, but it sounds delicious. I guesss they debuted mid-season last year which is why I didn't know about them (didn't ski at North 2nd half of the season).

But I also heard some disconcerting news. I had previously heard that a Waffle Haus was going in at Allyn's Lodge at South. I was pretty excited about this b/c not only would this be a great snack for the morning, but would also alleviate the crowding problems they experienced at that facility in the last few years when it gets cold. Well, I found out that the Waffle Haus will be inside Allyn's Lodge and will replace whatever food options they had there previously. Basically, they will not really solve the crowding problem and will in addition be left with a narrow, unimaginative menu (waffles, water and soda). Booooo! That really seem seams like a lousy idea to me.
Well there never really were any good food options up there. I think the waffles will be better than what they previously had. As for the crowding problems, you're right in saying that this will do nothing for it. Putting the Waffle Haus outside wouldn't have done anything for it either since they are usually just a stand with no inside seating.

ski_resort_observer
12-05-2005, 01:43 PM
I too don't understand why they don't expand Allyn Lodge. Gorgeous spot busy traffic area. Seems it would be a great revenue producer if the food was decent.

Tin Woodsman
12-05-2005, 02:48 PM
Well there never really were any good food options up there. I think the waffles will be better than what they previously had. As for the crowding problems, you're right in saying that this will do nothing for it. Putting the Waffle Haus outside wouldn't have done anything for it either since they are usually just a stand with no inside seating.

I won't argue with the quality of food options up there - it's always been mediocre at best. So I guess the waffles are an upgrade in that sense. But at least there was a semblance of variety, with wraps, cookies, fruit, energy bars, etc.. That said, I think it very much would have done something for crowding. The worst part about the crowding wasn't the wait for the tables, which was bad enough, but the wait for the food - which was awful (like 20-30 minutes awful). With an exterior Waffle Haus, you could have removed a big piece of that problem by creating an additional point of sale.

skibum1321
12-05-2005, 04:32 PM
Well there never really were any good food options up there. I think the waffles will be better than what they previously had. As for the crowding problems, you're right in saying that this will do nothing for it. Putting the Waffle Haus outside wouldn't have done anything for it either since they are usually just a stand with no inside seating.

I won't argue with the quality of food options up there - it's always been mediocre at best. So I guess the waffles are an upgrade in that sense. But at least there was a semblance of variety, with wraps, cookies, fruit, energy bars, etc.. That said, I think it very much would have done something for crowding. The worst part about the crowding wasn't the wait for the tables, which was bad enough, but the wait for the food - which was awful (like 20-30 minutes awful). With an exterior Waffle Haus, you could have removed a big piece of that problem by creating an additional point of sale.
I never actually bought food there, so I can't really speak to that problem. I usually bring my food with me and I would only go to the lodge when I needed to warm up. I guess I misunderstood where you thought the crowding issue was.

2planker
12-06-2005, 10:34 AM
Since management loves the tents that they are using as semi permanent structures. Why don't they put a yurt at the Allyn lodge or near the North Lynx triple? I hate coming down for lunch or a warm up if the bumps are nice on Sunrise and Morningstar. There was a little coffee stand up there years ago.

Tin Woodsman
12-06-2005, 12:45 PM
Since management loves the tents that they are using as semi permanent structures. Why don't they put a yurt at the Allyn lodge or near the North Lynx triple? I hate coming down for lunch or a warm up if the bumps are nice on Sunrise and Morningstar. There was a little coffee stand up there years ago.

Without knowing the economics of it, I agree completely. The base area is going to be a bit of a mess the next 2-3 years. Why not keep people higher on the mountain to ease congestion and confusion down there? Also, the most crowded lifts are always Super Bravo and Gate House. The more you can do to keep people skiing on underutilized lifts like North Lynx, and away from the workhorses, the better, IMHO.

ski_resort_observer
12-06-2005, 01:11 PM
Gatehouse is an awful place to go, especially on the weekends. I park at North and if I need something I go into the base lodge there. When friends come over they always want to meet at Gatehouse Lodge. You walk up the stairs then as you are entering the first the smell and then the heat hits you like a ton of bricks. As I am riding the Slidebrook Express and I see all the cars at South I feel like I am going into the mouth of the Lion. What we are willing to endure for our friends. lol

People have benn complaining about GL for years and rightly so. I guess we will have to endure for a couple of more years for the problem to be fixed.

Tin Woodsman
12-27-2005, 03:14 PM
Well, I had the chance to spend some time up at the hill this past long weekend and I have a few observations/opinions to pass along. First, the rumors previously mentioned in this thread are true - Allyn's Lodge is Waffle Haus only this year. When you come in from the cold looking for a mid-day snack, your options are as follows:

Skittles
M&Ms
Snickers
Reese's
Waffles (w or w/o chocolate)

That's it, and that's pretty pathetic, IMO. No fruit, no granola, no energy bars, just candy and waffles. I love the addition of the hot cider to beverage choices, but having only a single food item on the menu strikes me as being incromprehensibly stupid. I really have to wonder about the F&B decision making process at SB when I see stuff like this. I heard and saw a lot of people walking out of the Lodge (empty-handed, I should add) muttering to themselves about what a lousy state of affairs this is. Looks like SB solved the Allyn's Lodge crowding problem in a most novel way - by driving people away. Makes no sense to me.

And in other news, I heard a most nasty rumor (hope I'm not stealing Lostone's thunder in that dept). Namely, that SB is looking to sell the Slidebrook Express due to its lack of usage. From a purely financial standpoint, that might make sense. That lift is likely on the books for a large amount of money (unless it was de-facto written down when Summit Ventures purchased the mtn) and gets the least ridership of any lift on the mtn. One could probably find willing buyers for a 2 mile long HSQ with that few hours on it. From a marketing perspective, this would be a disaster, IMO. North and South would be very much separate, like the phony baloney "mergers" of Mt. Snow/Haystack and Killington/Pico. Unless you are physically linked by trails or lifts, it's just marketing BS. From a practical standpoint, it would make getting from one side to the other a lot more difficult and would likely exascerbate the crowding issues at the Slide Brook Rd. pick up on weekends. Again though, this is just a rumor, so perhpas no need to get worked up about it just yet.

Finally, nice job with the temp village me thinks. Sensible layout and away from the hustle and bustle. It will be really interesting to see how the base area evolves in the next 18-24 months. It's already unrecognizable from just 8 months ago. My wife was completely disoriented when she arrived for her first day on Saturday.

random_ski_guy
12-27-2005, 08:26 PM
Sell the Slide Brook Express?!?! the horror that would be :( . Sugarbush is number one on my list for purchasing a ski house, something i would like to do within three years. I would seriously have to reconsider if the slide brook were lost. If i were someone who just purchased a qtr share i would be especially irate. :evil:

Perhaps the signs of financial weakness are all around us:
i) the complete lack of interest to invest in real food at Allyns (or any lodge for that matter)
ii) slow roll out of the snowmaking (although i think this is generally wise)
iii) reduction of the grooming fleet by one vehicle (the reverse of most resorts, like it or not)
iv) failure of the qtr share project to sell out in six months (this has to make the owners sweat)

I welcome all those to challenge this notion of financial weekness, I would like to be convinced otherwise....and pronto

ski resort observer and/or mtn lady please squash this rumor.

Tin Woodsman
12-28-2005, 12:29 AM
It should be noted that, given the quality of other rumors I've heard recently, this one too should be taken with a large grain of salt.

That said, your other observations all well-taken. I've noticed these things as well, but have neglected to comment on them thus far.

smootharc
12-28-2005, 10:16 AM
Perhaps the signs of financial weakness are all around us:

iv) failure of the qtr share project to sell out in six months (this has to make the owners sweat)

...I realize they are big elsewhere, but I just don't get those things as I've posted before on AZ's SB thread....must be a nightmare from a "who gets what week when" standpoint....

Anyone know what the annual fees and services will be on those things ? I think that would be a bit of a un-incentive if you're paying those but have to fight for time with three other owners....

random_ski_guy
12-28-2005, 10:48 AM
i think it works quite smoothly. SB is using an assigned week system whereby for example you are assigned the first week of every month in one year, then the second week in year two, then the third week in year three, then the fourth week in year 4 and finally you are back to week one in year 5. i believe this is a fairly common qtr share system and the nice thing about it is that you can plan your winters years in advance. if you want to stay any other weeks then can swap weeks internally provided you relinquish some of your own time. owners also get discounted access to stay at the property on short notice in the event the lodge is not full. i think the general feeling is that owners will be able to drop in and use the property on short notice during the weeks, but don't plan on it during the weekends and holiday weeks. no, this isn't the ideal system for those who want to be at SB or any mtn whenever they want (whenever its snows and during all holidays and weekends). but it has proven to be a very popular approach to vacationing and second home ownership throughout ski towns and beach towns in north america. just look at that raging city on a mtn that okemo has become.

i have the annual dues kicking around somewhere at the house (yes i've been on the mkting tour). its projected to be approx $3,500 annually before taxes for a 2 bedroom unit. I think taxes might be in the 2-3k range (yes thats right for owning just a qtr share). So you are lookiing at approx. 5.5k - 6.5k in annual ownership costs.

with all that being said, i'm of the impression that Okemo and Stratton have been selling their qtr shares at a brisker pace. if SB is going to turn the corner, lincoln village needs to be a raging success.

smootharc
12-28-2005, 11:39 AM
if SB is going to turn the corner, lincoln village needs to be a raging success.

on the whole 1/4 share concept....and when you add it up the scheduling and annual overhead, it would be a struggle to make sense in my mind...but, hey, that's why the world is great....we all don't like the same things.

and regarding your comment above....indeed it does seem alot is riding on the revamp of South, for the long term.

Mtnlady
12-29-2005, 05:37 AM
But the few comments I saw gave me enough to respond to...
First, despite what may be the comments here, and with the disclaimer of not being a bean counter myself, this is the first season in the 10 yrs I have worked at SB that financial pessimism is not weighing us managers down. Season pass sales are way up, skier visits are way up, snow quality has been very competitive and generally complimented by skiers - as has the grooming despite the strategic decision to go with one fewer groomer. Clay Brook sales are on target. The construction of Clay Brook is on target as well.

Weather is our worry at the moment - sheesh, could there be a holiday week for once without such a roller coaster ride?!!

And at Allyn's we are under the thumb of the Nat'l Forest Service - no running water for food prep or flush toilets - we just got electricity up there this season that is not the touch-and-go generator variety of past seasons - also giving better ventilating capability for the non-flush plumbing! There are fans of Allyn's lurking here who will defend it the way it is - it does have charm. We do what we are allowed ...

Waffle House at Allyn's is soon to be joined by the same hot dog guy who has been doing great business over by the AdvLrningCntr yurt/terrain park area @ ME -- these small concessionaires relieve SB F&B of the major logistical complication of doing it ourselves, plus they do it well with better scrutiny of details because, well, it's all they have to worry about!

So, I'll read more later... and comment when I can. Right now, I gotta get over the mountain to the mountain before we get anything coming from above that will complicate my drive!

Happy Holidays to you all! Stay positive - it's better for karma.

smootharc
12-29-2005, 08:45 AM
...are very helpful and illuminating. Thanks, Mtnlady.

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2005, 11:00 AM
But the few comments I saw gave me enough to respond to...
First, despite what may be the comments here, and with the disclaimer of not being a bean counter myself, this is the first season in the 10 yrs I have worked at SB that financial pessimism is not weighing us managers down. Season pass sales are way up, skier visits are way up, snow quality has been very competitive and generally complimented by skiers - as has the grooming despite the strategic decision to go with one fewer groomer. Clay Brook sales are on target. The construction of Clay Brook is on target as well.

mtnlady - This is clearly good news for those of us that love SB. Happy to hear it for sure. I know the North-only passes last year were a big hit, so I'm wondering if the growth has come from that area or for all-mountain passes. Any insights into why the strategic decision was made to go with one fewer groomer?


And at Allyn's we are under the thumb of the Nat'l Forest Service - no running water for food prep or flush toilets - we just got electricity up there this season that is not the touch-and-go generator variety of past seasons - also giving better ventilating capability for the non-flush plumbing! There are fans of Allyn's lurking here who will defend it the way it is - it does have charm. We do what we are allowed ...
Allyn's has loads of charm, and I don't think anyone is arguing for a massive overhaul, but it wouldn't seem too difficult to bring a load of pre-made sandwiches, cereal/granola bars, and fruit up on a cat in the morning. No prep, no fuss, no muss.



Waffle House at Allyn's is soon to be joined by the same hot dog guy who has been doing great business over by the AdvLrningCntr yurt/terrain park area @ ME -- these small concessionaires relieve SB F&B of the major logistical complication of doing it ourselves, plus they do it well with better scrutiny of details because, well, it's all they have to worry about!

That set-up definitely does have its advantages, as long as a watchful eye is kept in terms of concessionaire oversight. Regardless, I'm psyched to hear that the food options will be essentially doubling in short order. When is that supposed to get up and operating?

ski_resort_observer
12-29-2005, 11:43 AM
About a year ago the Bush hired a new F&B guy, can't remember his name except he was Austrian and had big plans to improve the on-mountain food. Anyone notice any improvements in the food at Gatehouse, Green Mountain or the Glen House?

smootharc
12-29-2005, 12:25 PM
but it wouldn't seem too difficult to bring a load of pre-made sandwiches, cereal/granola bars, and fruit up on a cat in the morning. No prep, no fuss, no muss.

....I usually pull out those very items at chow time. So let's use the Cat instead to take us to some first tracks at the crack of dawn. I'll bribe the driver with a double mocha stoli latte.... :wink:

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2005, 12:50 PM
About a year ago the Bush hired a new F&B guy, can't remember his name except he was Austrian and had big plans to improve the on-mountain food. Anyone notice any improvements in the food at Gatehouse, Green Mountain or the Glen House?
I've noticed two changes for the better. They've substantially improved the variety and quality of food at Glen House mid-season last year. Also, they created a separate pizza station in the GH lodge to ease crowding in the main cafeteria line. Other than that, I haven't noticed much of any change. I think the changes to Allyn's this year are clearly a step back, though I suppose the jury is out w/ this hot dog guy (still VERY weak not to have pre-made or packaged items there, IMO). Also, one thing I've noticed a lot is that you'll often see a bunch of folks coming in from a long ski day around 3-4PM. They are tired, cold and hungry. Many would like a bowl of chilli/soup or something else hot. Unfortunately, the cafeteria shuts down at 3 or thereabouts (not sure of the exact time). It would seem to me to make a lot more sense to just keep it open until 4:30 or so with a skeleton crew to make the economics work. SB is definitely leaving F&B money on the table hear. I've seen dozens and dozens of people come into the grill area looking for food, only to be disappointed when they find that an apple and a hot chocolate is the best they can do.

ski_resort_observer
12-29-2005, 01:12 PM
About a year ago the Bush hired a new F&B guy, can't remember his name except he was Austrian and had big plans to improve the on-mountain food. Anyone notice any improvements in the food at Gatehouse, Green Mountain or the Glen House?
Also, one thing I've noticed a lot is that you'll often see a bunch of folks coming in from a long ski day around 3-4PM. They are tired, cold and hungry. Many would like a bowl of chilli/soup or something else hot. Unfortunately, the cafeteria shuts down at 3 or thereabouts (not sure of the exact time). It would seem to me to make a lot more sense to just keep it open until 4:30 or so with a skeleton crew to make the economics work. SB is definitely leaving F&B money on the table hear. I've seen dozens and dozens of people come into the grill area looking for food, only to be disappointed when they find that an apple and a hot chocolate is the best they can do.

I am sure the Bush has considered this and decided to close early. I agree with you. At least give it a shot and see if the cost vs benefit is a positive or negetive. Perhaps they have tried in the past and it just was not worth it. Personally, I avoid GH like the plague. Maybe mtnlady can pass your observations along to F&B.

A trend that I am sure your aware of is skiers are getting off the mountain earlier than in the past. Obviously, this has alot to do with the advent of high speed lifts. I think you will find that the mountain is pretty deserted by 3, even on weekends. If they are really missing business from "dozens and dozens of people" after 3then perhaps they should give it another look.

I noticed the Waffle Haus has an ad in the help wanted section at both the Bush and Stowe in the Valley Distorter today.

Tin Woodsman
12-29-2005, 02:35 PM
I am sure the Bush has considered this and decided to close early. I agree with you. At least give it a shot and see if the cost vs benefit is a positive or negetive. Perhaps they have tried in the past and it just was not worth it. Personally, I avoid GH like the plague. Maybe mtnlady can pass your observations along to F&B.

A trend that I am sure your aware of is skiers are getting off the mountain earlier than in the past. Obviously, this has alot to do with the advent of high speed lifts. I think you will find that the mountain is pretty deserted by 3, even on weekends. If they are really missing business from "dozens and dozens of people" after 3then perhaps they should give it another look.


Perhaps so, but I would think that this trend plays into my argument. Back int he day, people would take their lunch at whatever time and ski hard until near closing time. By the time they got their act together, it was later in the day and almost time for dinner already. Now, you've got people pulling the ripcord at 2 or 2:30. Why not give them something to stick around for in the lodge if they aren't skiing?

Lostone
12-29-2005, 03:03 PM
I agree that it would be better to have something more substansial at Allyn's. I am one of those that might be considered the fans of Allyn's and generally carry my food with me. Still, I have heard others complain that they only have sugar. I agree that wraps are a good idea. They always seemed to be sold out, last year, but that would compete with the Waffle Haus specialty.

As for food at the bottom, I believe the bar serves food in each of the lodges until 5:00. Maybe a little signage woud be appropiate?


As for the quality and variety of the food, it has picked up a little, but (This rumor comes from one who knows a little about it.) they are limited by the facilities, as to what they can do.

The plan is things will improve with the new lodge, and this is one of their concerns.

But the separate pizza stand is great. And the pizza is pretty good too. Anyone else tried it?

ski_resort_observer
12-29-2005, 04:06 PM
Now I am confused. If people pull the ripcord at 2-2:30, which is true IMHO, and the food service is open till 3, where is the problem?

Glad to hear about the pizza improvement. In the ASC days the pizza I saw at Gatehouse was about as bad as it gets. Another option for the 21+ crowd is to stop at the Blue Tooth for some great apres ski eats.

Strat
12-29-2005, 04:54 PM
I have noticed an improvement in the food, at least the (somewhat) fast food available in the Gatehouse lodge... my usual purchase includes a cheeseburger for me, burger for my sister, and fries (soda's a given). Over the last few years they have gone from the plasticy wrappings to the nice foam thingies for burgers, which is a nice step up, though not food obviously... however, the burgers have gotten better as well. Buns are loftier, nicer quality, cheese is more consistently tasty, grease factor is down though they're still mighty tasty...

Yes, I do put a lot of thought into this.

Lostone
12-29-2005, 05:45 PM
Yes, I do put a lot of thought into this.

:roll: Yeah... great! Now I have to make dinner because I read your burger review. :roll:

:lol:

smootharc
12-29-2005, 06:02 PM
But the separate pizza stand is great. And the pizza is pretty good too. Anyone else tried it?

...the last thing I want is an afternoon "pepperoni heartburn slushie" churning in my tummy as I pound bumps on Castlerock. What am I supposed to do, have Maalox in my Camelback ??? :lol:

P.S. Yes, that burger description was indeed scrumptious....sheesh....."Buns are loftier, nicer....". Always was a bun man, burger-wise.... :wink:

ski_resort_observer
01-12-2006, 12:11 AM
Thought some of you might be interested in this detailed description and price of a 1/4 share of a 1 BR Claybrook unit. Came across this quite by accident doing my regular check of the real estate situation in the valley. There is 2BR on the next page.

http://www.nneren.com/view2.php?id=186944&ref=q&price=$103,609.00&t=

freeheel_skier
01-12-2006, 09:17 AM
I am going to go out on a limb and assume the $2400 condo fees are for the year. That seems steep for a 1/4 share(800/mo). However, I hope that includes Everything(trash p/u and other nonsense)? Correct me if I am wrong. Does anybody have more info on the monthly condo fees and what it includes?

smootharc
01-12-2006, 09:31 AM
I am going to go out on a limb and assume the $2400 condo fees are for the year. That seems steep for a 1/4 share(800/mo). However, I hope that includes Everything(trash p/u and other nonsense)? Correct me if I am wrong. Does anybody have more info on the monthly condo fees and what it includes?

....these luxury, "high end, amenity laden" places have a lot of overhead to service, in terms of materials and bodies, so you pay for it....big time, compared to many other condo associations. I read it, perhaps incorrectly, that the $2,400 is the 1/4 share owner's fees for the year. But certainly a point for clarification.

ski_resort_observer
01-12-2006, 10:15 AM
I am going to go out on a limb and assume the $2400 condo fees are for the year. That seems steep for a 1/4 share(800/mo). However, I hope that includes Everything(trash p/u and other nonsense)? Correct me if I am wrong. Does anybody have more info on the monthly condo fees and what it includes?

Each owner, per 1/4 share, will have to pay that fee which I assume that's what you mean. For a 1BR unit that will sell for 400,000+ bucks this is in line with other similar high end units.

If you look at The Bridges Resort, just down a short ways from the LP base area, you pay close to 800 bucks per month for a 1BR's condo fees, that's 2400 per 3 months(1/4 share) and the units are not close to being comparable in any way shape or form to Claybrook although they have a nice health club, outdoor pools and nice tennis courts in the summer.

It seems like alot but when compared to other slopeside high end units I think you will find it is not.

Conversly I own a 1BR unit a couple of miles from the base area and pay 215 per month. :D

smootharc
01-12-2006, 10:28 AM
If you look at The Bridges Resort, just down a short ways from the LP base area, you pay close to 800 bucks per month for a 1BR's condo fees, that's 2400 per 3 months(1/4 share) and the units are not close to being comparable in any way shape or form to Claybrook although they have a nice health club, outdoor pools and nice tennis courts in the summer.

Always wondered how The Bridges "spun" that monthly nut. Like Willy Wonka, I'd be hiding it deep, deep, deep in the fine print. :shock:

ski_resort_observer
01-12-2006, 05:10 PM
If you look at The Bridges Resort, just down a short ways from the LP base area, you pay close to 800 bucks per month for a 1BR's condo fees, that's 2400 per 3 months(1/4 share) and the units are not close to being comparable in any way shape or form to Claybrook although they have a nice health club, outdoor pools and nice tennis courts in the summer.

Always wondered how The Bridges "spun" that monthly nut. Like Willy Wonka, I'd be hiding it deep, deep, deep in the fine print. :shock:

I hear what your saying. Just got one of those promotions from Verizon for 14.95 for DSL. My wife wanted to switch from broadband cable until I asked her to read the fine print. As you might expect we are not switching.

In the Bridges case, however, they are very upfront about the monthly condo fees. When I was looking for a small condo 7 years ago I went up there as they has several for sale. When they told me the monthly condo fees I was shocked cause a 1br unit in Center Village, the building below it(can't believe I can't think of the name), Butternut, Madbush and others were all in the $200/month ballpark.

Having said that when I worked at the Bush I worked with the Lodging/Marketing Director over at the Bridges, Jim, I'm sure Noski remembers him, as the Bush rented some of their units and we sold and delivered wholesale lift tiks to them almost on a daily basis. They offer no apologies for the high condo fees as they feel they operate a first class resort. Like I mentioned in my post, they have a nice health/tennis club, grounds are kept nice. I have been in several of their units and like condos everywhere unless the ownder has invested some major bucks the units were pretty tired.

Litle known truth when renting a condo. You might end up in a #1 rated unit, owner has probably invested 10-30,000 bucks, or the complete opposite. Both units rent for the same amount so your unit might be a disaster but the lucky stiff that ended with the renovated unit right next door is living it up in the lap of luxary. Please realize that all resorts generally rent the nicest place available and the earlier you book the better chance of getting a nice place. I also think when you rent from a high end first class place like a Claybrook that this problem does not really exist as all the units are going to be nice. 30 years from now it might be a diferent story tho.