Rumor: Vail to buy Stowe.

[Benski]

http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe_reporter/news/local_news/rumors-fly-about-vail-are-they-real/article_e8000d8a-e34a-11e6-b79e-c34287592cba.html

Anyone here anything reliable? I guess for Sugarbush this would mean cheeper masses since Epic passes are cheeper than Stowe's passes.

[phin]

I guess for Sugarbush this would mean cheeper masses since Epic passes are cheeper than Stowe's passes.

What do you mean by this?

[cdskier]

What do you mean by this?

Benski is suggesting that vail would make Stowe part of their epic pass which is around $800 at their early rate. By doing that he's saying the significant drop in stowe's pass price by virtue of being on epic would force sugarbush to lower their prices to compete. I don't personally agree with that line of thought.


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[Benski]

Based on the precedent set by the young thirties pass Sugarbush tries to undercut Stowes price.

http://forums.skimrv.com/showthread.php/14516-Thank-you-Stowe!

[cdskier]

Based on the precedent set by the young thirties pass Sugarbush tries to undercut Stowes price.

http://forums.skimrv.com/showthread.php/14516-Thank-you-Stowe!

Vastly different dynamics. The early 30s pass was for a smaller subset of skiers due to the narrow age range. It probably also had the benefit of targeting an age range that was "on the fence" about whether to buy a pass so offering the lower price to that age range could drive more sales and offset the discounted price. Trying to "undercut" Stowe if Vail bought them and they were added to the Epic pass is a whole different ballgame. Now you're talking about a huge age range (36-64) to target and attempting to even compete with the Epic pass could result in too much of a revenue loss to make sense. There are many people that would not jump ship to Stowe suddenly even if the price dropped to Epic pass levels.

Still a lot of ifs here as the whole deal is still just a rumor for now.

[Sugarbushskier9]

Vastly different dynamics. The early 30s pass was for a smaller subset of skiers due to the narrow age range. It probably also had the benefit of targeting an age range that was "on the fence" about whether to buy a pass so offering the lower price to that age range could drive more sales and offset the discounted price. Trying to "undercut" Stowe if Vail bought them and they were added to the Epic pass is a whole different ballgame. Now you're talking about a huge age range (36-64) to target and attempting to even compete with the Epic pass could result in too much of a revenue loss to make sense. There are many people that would not jump ship to Stowe suddenly even if the price dropped to Epic pass levels.

Still a lot of ifs here as the whole deal is still just a rumor for now.

I agree with both of you to a point...i mean the young 30s pass showed Stowe's power in the market. I had never heard of a resort dropping their rates and refunding people because of a move by another ski area.. that's unprecedented. I worked with Ski Vermont a few winters ago and this discussion came up a bit. a lot of the ski resorts in the state bank on Stowe's passes being so high. They can then charge more but still be cheaper...regardless of which place you like more the common notion is that stowe is up there. I wouldn't under estimate the change in revenues to other ski areas.

I do think an $800 passto Stowewould be a game changer in the state. Sugarbush would become the most expensive pass in Vermont.

[cdskier]

I do think an $800 passto Stowewould be a game changer in the state. Sugarbush would become the most expensive pass in Vermont.

Perhaps...but at the same time if you look out west you'll see plenty of non-Vail resorts that don't attempt to compete with Epic. (There was even a section on the very topic of competing with Vail on pricing in the new Ski, Inc book written by Chris Diamond). I'm not saying it won't have some impact, but I think more likely it would simply either slow any increase from Sugarbush or "best case" (for us) is cause a slight drop in prices. I think some people think other resorts like SB would try to directly compete with the Epic pass pricing and I think that's where people are wrong. Then again, I have no numbers at all to back any of my theories up and am just going with my gut instincts. Would SB want to be known as the most expensive pass in the state? I don't know.

[Hawk]

By and large I would think that it would have some minor impact from the frugal people that would jump ship for any savings. That I think is a small minority. But for most like me and my friends who own a place here, love the community of the valley, love skiing with friends here and really enjoy the uniqueness of Sugarbush, there is no way we would ever change to that place. In the end, we are only speculating that they would change the whole price structure to the Epic pass. And who's to say that they would change the day ticket price. Until that happens I will never go there except for then I use my SkiVT 3 or 5 pack. It will be interesting to see.

[Hawk]

One other thought. If you take the Epic Pass option and decide to switch to Stowe where would you stay? If you do a quick check of Stowe real estate you will find that prices are out of control up there for either buying or renting. That was the big rub with me 15 - 20 years ago when we started looking and it is much higher now.

[cdskier]

Agree Hawk. Sugarbush is my "home" and I would not leave either no matter what Stowe charged for their pass.


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[winjr]

There are always tons of rumors in the ski industry. Who knows if this is true but it is a logical choice for Vail. Rob Katz is an aggressive and capable CEO who wants 1 million Epic passholdes. We would obviously watch this with great interest and while it would threaten us to some degree, I also think it would afford us a number of opportunities. The ski industry is cons\olidating but I strongly believe their will continue to a spot for locally owned and managed resorts like Smuugs and Sugarbush and unique experiences like our neighbor MRG.

[Treeskier]

Several movers and shakers at John Egan's Skier Hall of Fame indicated that it looks very possible. Things to ponder.

[brave fellow]

I have to imagine this would cause a significant impact on Skiing in the state. The VERY early season pricing for an adult pass at the Bush is pretty high. And the price for purchase just before the season starts is ludicrous for most people.

I think the Epic pass banks on a lot of purchasers not using it to the fullest extent, or spending a lot at the resort on gear, beer and food. Sugarbush is my home, and I'm willing to pay a bit more to "be local" so to speak. However, I think the Epic pass, and Stowe, have a way of setting the market.

[cdskier]

I think the Epic pass banks on a lot of purchasers not using it to the fullest extent, or spending a lot at the resort on gear, beer and food.

And lodging...lodging is a big part of Vail's revenue stream from what I've heard. They count on people needing to travel to their resorts. But yes, I also wouldn't be surprised if the average Epic pass holder uses it much less days overall than your average local east coast pass holder. I know people that buy Epic passes simply to use it for one or two week-long trips out west. You're saving substantial money off the walk-up ticket rates, but not using the pass a huge number of days in that scenario.

[cdskier]

Well the deal is done... http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vail-resorts-acquire-stowe-mountain-130000462.html

$50 Million, however the purchase does NOT include Stowe's lodging and much of their real estate holdings. My take is Vail did a deal for Stowe's operations only more as a way to drive higher Epic pass sales and drive more people to their western resorts. The lack of purchasing the real estate and lodging components of Stowe is a bit of a surprise.

[Benski]

Well the deal is done... http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vail-resorts-acquire-stowe-mountain-130000462.html

$50 Million, however the purchase does NOT include Stowe's lodging and much of their real estate holdings. My take is Vail did a deal for Stowe's operations only more as a way to drive higher Epic pass sales and drive more people to their western resorts. The lack of purchasing the real estate and lodging components of Stowe is a bit of a surprise.

Interesting though that the release says SOME potential real estate implying Vail might be able to build some real estate on there land.

[Treeskier]

I hear there are rumblings of a alternative to the Epic pass in the wind...... Things they are a changing.

[Benski]

I hear there are rumblings of a alternative to the Epic pass in the wind...... Things they are a changing.

I am going to guess the max pass.They could use a new eat coast mountain since They will loose Stowe and Whistler. Here is this years offer:
2 days at AltaSnowbird
2 days at Aspen Snowmass
2 days at Jackson Hole
2 days at Mammoth
2 days at Revelstoke
2 days at Ski Banff/Lake Louise/Sunshine
2 days at Ski Queenstown/Coronet Peak/The Remarkables
2 days at Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows
2 days at Stowe
2 days at Sun Valley
2 days at Taos
2 days at Telluride
2 days at Thredbo
2 days at Whistler Blackcomb
You also get 50% off on additional days.

[cdskier]

Benski, isn't that the Mountain Collective pass and not the Max Pass? The Max Pass is the one Killington participates in (and it gives 5 days at all participating resorts plus is available as an add-on to a full pass from those resorts).

[Benski]

Benski, isn't that the Mountain Collective pass and not the Max Pass? The Max Pass is the one Killington participates in (and it gives 5 days at all participating resorts plus is available as an add-on to a full pass from those resorts).

Correct. Whoops.

[Orca]

DONE DEAL!

Vail entered into an agreement to buy Stowe today, and will add Stowe to its $809 EPIC PASS next year. Unlimited skiing for $809 and it also gets you access to all their other resorts.

Suddenly Sugarbush passes are looking really expensive. MAX pass also putting price pressure on SB.

[Benski]

DONE DEAL!

Vail entered into an agreement to buy Stowe today, and will add Stowe to its $809 EPIC PASS next year. Unlimited skiing for $809 and it also gets you access to all their other resorts.

Suddenly Sugarbush passes are looking really expensive. MAX pass also putting price pressure on SB.

No way Epic pass with Stowe is that cheep. That's less than half the price of a Stowe pass. And next year there adding whistler too.

[cdskier]

It could be that cheap, although I would expect a slight increase (say maybe in the 825-850 range). Vail can sell epic for cheap since they do such tremendous volume. Good luck with the crowds at Stowe though with the epic pass. Weekends will be insane and not fun to ski.

As for sugarbush looking expensive, last year the early price for a full adult unlimited pass was only $10 more than K's early price for their full adult pass. And they were even cheaper than some other resorts in southern Vermont.

Other costs need to be considered too beyond just the pass. For seasonal renters, Stowe may cost them more than the mrv for example.


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[Benski]

Win just sent out an email discussing the purchase. I found this line interesting, "Personally, I like to think that our terrain is the Eastern equivalent of mountains like Alta, Jackson Hole, Aspen Highlands, Telluride and Squaw, where I have skied in recent years." All the mountains mentioned are on the Mountain Collective, which to me is a suggestion Sugarbush is going to replace Stowe in the pass. At the very least Win sees that as logical.

[cdskier]

They could join Mountain Collective, but it wouldn't do anything for me as an SB passholder already. Unless I'm missing something, there's 0 benefit to buying Mountain Collective for an existing passholder unless I intend to go to several of the resorts out west (in which case the benefit would be the same whether I'm an SB passholder or not...wouldn't it?)

[Benski]

They could join Mountain Collective, but it wouldn't do anything for me as an SB passholder already. Unless I'm missing something, there's 0 benefit to buying Mountain Collective for an existing passholder unless I intend to go to several of the resorts out west (in which case the benefit would be the same whether I'm an SB passholder or not...wouldn't it?)

Unless it is free or cheep with a full pass to one of the mountain in the Mountain Collective. I don't know how the Mountain Collective price is structured but Bolton has something similar that is free with there pass. http://www.boltonvalley.com/tickets-passes-rentals/seasons-passes/Freedom-Pass

[cdskier]

From everything I remember reading on Mountain Collective, there's no discounts for passholders. It is simply everyone that wants Mountain Collective pays the same price ($379 was last year's price) whether you are a passholder at one of the participating resorts or not. If you plan to visit at least 2 of the resorts out west that are on that pass for at least 2 days each, then it definitely is worth it. There simply is no benefit to an SB pass holder to SB joining that pass.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be a benefit to SB. As once Stowe leaves that pass the people that are buying that pass could definitely take advantage of SB being on it if they are not SB passholders. Realistically it is more of a benefit to non-SB passholders as it would entice them to visit the resort.

[winjr]

Win just sent out an email discussing the purchase. I found this line interesting, "Personally, I like to think that our terrain is the Eastern equivalent of mountains like Alta, Jackson Hole, Aspen Highlands, Telluride and Squaw, where I have skied in recent years." All the mountains mentioned are on the Mountain Collective, which to me is a suggestion Sugarbush is going to replace Stowe in the pass. At the very least Win sees that as logical.

Could have mentioned a couple of others like Deer Valley that has some great terrain off Lady Morgan and in the Empire Bowl. They are all alone and by all reports doing very well next to Vail's Park City and Canyon's. Like them we are going to continue focusing on the quality of the experience here. I think a lot will appreciate that.

[brave fellow]

Could have mentioned a couple of others like Deer Valley that has some great terrain off Lady Morgan and in the Empire Bowl. They are all alone and by all reports doing very well next to Vail's Park City and Canyon's. Like them we are going to continue focusing on the quality of the experience here. I think a lot will appreciate that.
Win, I'm a 4 year season pass holder who comes back for none of the reasons you included in your email. I am one of SB's biggest defenders on this forum, but that email had a lot of poor arguments for why SB should be a skier's mountain of choice.

Comparing SB to ANY west coast mountain, like you did in your email, is comparing apples to tiny oranges. SB will never have the amount of vert and the quality of snow the western mountains have. Not to mention the elevation of the western mountains allows for improved snow totals and more treeless terrain than SB. People who come to SB ski the East because we live and work here. If I could get my job and move mine and my wife's family out to Utah, CO, or WY tomorrow, you bet damn well I would do that.

For some reason, you use DV as an example of a successful independent mountain to compare SB to. I agree with your statement that DV does very well by itself, but for reasons that completely different from what SB offers. The snow in Utah is known to be some of the highest quality in the world. VT has....ice. Empire is a nice area of DV and I had no problem dropping in off the cornice without any fresh snow since you can still get an edge in. Dropping in with the ice we get in VT? No thank you. You don't see people dropping of Church Rocks after a rain/freeze cycle for a reason.

DV is also INCREDIBLY expensive...$128 per day! They also limit the amount of tickets they sell each day to keep lift lines down. I don't think I waited more than 5 minutes at DV when I visited. Plus, the people who own property at DV are all tied to Hollywood somehow because of Sundance. The people who ski at DV are casual skiers who want to wear fur on the mountain, take two runs on the bunny hill then go drink martinis in Stein’s Lodge. SB skiers celebrate 4 inches of snow like Christmas, will ski in an ice storm, put up with wind holds at HG and then go to CRP and order a Naragansett in a can. I really don't think it is appropriate to compare SB to DV.

Unless SB is going to magically produce Utah powder, host a major international film festival, jack up prices to $120+ per day and limit the amount of tickets sold, Stowe on the Epic pass is going to lead to some drop in skier ship at SB. The drop will be in the casual skier who does 2 or 3 ski weekends per year, skiing 5 runs then going to the bar at 1pm. Unfortunately, these people tend to spend the most money at the mountain and generate more revenue than the 25+ day pass holder who drinks the cheap beers and packs a PB&J sandwich to eat on the lift.

If SB is going to continue to demand 1700 for a season pass, the mountain better be offering something better than 3 roads in (that still filter to ONE road) and the F lot.

[cdskier]

Comparing SB to ANY west coast mountain, like you did in your email, is comparing apples to tiny oranges. SB will never have the amount of vert and the quality of snow the western mountains have. Not to mention the elevation of the western mountains allows for improved snow totals and more treeless terrain than SB.

I think you missed Win's point. He said "Eastern equivalent" not "equivalent". There's a big difference. They are simply successful, independent resorts with great terrain. For the east, SB is absolutely the same thing.



Unless SB is going to magically produce Utah powder, host a major international film festival, jack up prices to $120+ per day and limit the amount of tickets sold, Stowe on the Epic pass is going to lead to some drop in skier ship at SB. The drop will be in the casual skier who does 2 or 3 ski weekends per year, skiing 5 runs then going to the bar at 1pm. Unfortunately, these people tend to spend the most money at the mountain and generate more revenue than the 25+ day pass holder who drinks the cheap beers and packs a PB&J sandwich to eat on the lift.

I don't see the "casual skier who does 5 runs and heads to the bar" as the typical Sugarbush passholder/skier. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt there will be people that jump ship to Epic, I just don't think it will be the mass exodus that I'm hearing some people predict. I will admit though that I do fall in that "25+ day pass holder" category that tends to not spend much other money at the mountain (sorry Win!). I have a few drinks at Wunderbar here and there. I eat lunch on mountain once in a blue moon. Normally I head over to Sugarbush village though to grab something at Pizza Soul or Mutha Stuffers for lunch.

For the casual skier, I'd argue those are more the people that buy things like the Quad pack. Are people going to dump the Quad pack in favor of Epic? Hard to say but I don't think a lot of those people would.


If SB is going to continue to demand 1700 for a season pass, the mountain better be offering something better than 3 roads in (that still filter to ONE road) and the F lot.

Do a lot of people really pay the full 1700 price? To me the early purchase price is the only one that matters for comparisons with other resorts. $1149 is decently reasonable (or at least in line with quite a few other resorts in VT)

[nhskier1969]

I think you missed Win's point. He said "Eastern equivalent" not "equivalent". There's a big difference. They are simply successful, independent resorts with great terrain. For the east, SB is absolutely the same thing.


I don't see the "casual skier who does 5 runs and heads to the bar" as the typical Sugarbush passholder/skier. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt there will be people that jump ship to Epic, I just don't think it will be the mass exodus that I'm hearing some people predict. I will admit though that I do fall in that "25+ day pass holder" category that tends to not spend much other money at the mountain (sorry Win!). I have a few drinks at Wunderbar here and there. I eat lunch on mountain once in a blue moon. Normally I head over to Sugarbush village though to grab something at Pizza Soul or Mutha Stuffers for lunch.

For the casual skier, I'd argue those are more the people that buy things like the Quad pack. Are people going to dump the Quad pack in favor of Epic? Hard to say but I don't think a lot of those people would.



Do a lot of people really pay the full 1700 price? To me the early purchase price is the only one that matters for comparisons with other resorts. $1149 is decently reasonable (or at least in line with quite a few other resorts in VT)

As I said in other posts here in on AZ that it is going to sting a little bit. There are quite a few families out there that will do a few trips up north and then a trip out west each season. I would have to think this is Vail's core Demographic for the east. If they can steal day tickets away from other mountains and secure the dollars for Vail. Then its a big win for Vail. Instead of those families taking a weekend at Sugarbush then another at Stratton, those families would put there all there dollars into the Vail product.
As far as season pass holders, SB will loose some of those to Stowe based on price point along. I do not see SB season passes staying the same or increasing for the 17/18 season. Also all resorts and mostly Vermont will loose day ticket sales.
Don't get me wrong I think Sugarbush is the best mtn in the east, but it always comes down to price for most consumers. You could have the best product in the world but if you are twice as much as your competitor, consumers won't care.

[winjr]

I think you missed Win's point. He said "Eastern equivalent" not "equivalent". There's a big difference. They are simply successful, independent resorts with great terrain. For the east, SB is absolutely the same thing.


I don't see the "casual skier who does 5 runs and heads to the bar" as the typical Sugarbush passholder/skier. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt there will be people that jump ship to Epic, I just don't think it will be the mass exodus that I'm hearing some people predict. I will admit though that I do fall in that "25+ day pass holder" category that tends to not spend much other money at the mountain (sorry Win!). I have a few drinks at Wunderbar here and there. I eat lunch on mountain once in a blue moon. Normally I head over to Sugarbush village though to grab something at Pizza Soul or Mutha Stuffers for lunch.

For the casual skier, I'd argue those are more the people that buy things like the Quad pack. Are people going to dump the Quad pack in favor of Epic? Hard to say but I don't think a lot of those people would.



Do a lot of people really pay the full 1700 price? To me the early purchase price is the only one that matters for comparisons with other resorts. $1149 is decently reasonable (or at least in line with quite a few other resorts in VT)

Very few do. I learned a long time ago that one can not be all things to all people. I believe that Vail coming East will be good for Stowe and good for us and some others. That's called a "Win-Win". 😀 We are not a public company so do not have to report quarterly earnings and meet growth expectations. I am happy to have the visits we have this year and sell a few more craft beers and grilled cheese at Walt's.

Ps: our adult 7 for families has kids ski free if under 12 and is one of only 26 pass options.

[cdskier]

Ps: our adult 7 for families has kids ski free if under 12 and is one of only 26 pass options.

Yup, I've made both of those arguments several times on another forum when saying that SB is not as expensive as some people think and offers a substantial variety of choices.

[Orca]

Vail East (Stowe) is going to steal a lot of business with their Epic pass. MAX pass will continue to poach the skiers uncommitted to a single mountain.

Why would SB sell a full-up pass for $1,779 if, as Win says, very few pay it? Seems like a broken pricing scheme. What else is broken about the current scheme?

I pay for a full adult pass (no, not thirties, college, twenties, sixties, eighties, etc.) and will lose the benefit of my daughter's pass next year as she crosses eligible age threshold. It will be another $300 or more next year for me and I am rethinking it for sure.

I am not so sure SB's obsession with ageist pricing schemes is so very optimal. I think it is starting to rub a lot of folks the wrong way.

But I'm just rambling a bit....

HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION: How would people feel if Vail had bought Sugarbush? Would it be an improvement for YOU?

[cdskier]

Vail East (Stowe) is going to steal a lot of business with their Epic pass. MAX pass will continue to poach the skiers uncommitted to a single mountain.

Why would SB sell a full-up pass for $1,779 if, as Win says, very few pay it? Seems like a broken pricing scheme. What else is broken about the current scheme?


I'd argue that it isn't broken. The higher end price is an incentive to buy a pass earlier and thus give SB additional cash flow prior to the summer. Pretty standard strategy in the industry.



HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION: How would people feel if Vail had bought Sugarbush? Would it be an improvement for YOU?

Absolutely not. Having a cheaper pass (Epic) leading to crowds is not something I would be happy about. I like the slower (but steady) incremental progress being made by Win and his team. We don't need a Vail to come in and throw money around. That doesn't fit in the MRV culture.

[djd66]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the 20's and 30's passes. I pay full price (early season) for our passes. The cheap all mtn passes have definitely had an impact on skier traffic - which may be good if you are an owner, not so good for me. I can see selling a discounted ticket to college students, but once you graduate - why are they paying less than half what I am paying? 30 years old? Come on - are you still living in your parents basement? On the other side, I have 2 kids that ski for free on my pass. This has been a great deal thus far. This will be the last year for one of them. So next year, my 13 yo will be paying slightly less than a 30 yo. However when I throw the cost of seasonal programs, I'm north of $4500. Don't worry Win, I'm not going anywhere, just something to consider on those 30's passes.

I am actually thinking it may be worth getting additional passes in the Vail/Stowe deal though. One trip out west and a few days at Stowe and I've fully covered the cost. $1900 bucks and you can ski $!#*load of places - Sugarbush included!

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I have to believe there will be some huge, tremendous and biggly lift lines at Stowe next season.

[Sugarbushskier9]

I've had the 30s pass at both mountains this year, Stowe and Sugarbush. From what I've seen the crowd levels at Stowe are non-existent midweek (like empty chairs on every lift all day type stuff) and on weekends have never waited in more than a 10 minute line. The lines at say Heavens Gate and Castle Rock fixed grip chairs are much longer at times than I've seen at Stowe, so they have room to grow. Their parking is atrocious though and the traffic but the hill has plenty of room and the lifts that matter move people very well.

It will be interesting. I do think I'll continue to get a pass at both places as coming from Montpelier I like the flexibility of picking and choosing depending on the situation.

[cdskier]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the 20's and 30's passes. I pay full price (early season) for our passes. The cheap all mtn passes have definitely had an impact on skier traffic - which may be good if you are an owner, not so good for me. I can see selling a discounted ticket to college students, but once you graduate - why are they paying less than half what I am paying?

Let me give you my perspective on the 20s and early 30s pass. I was never a pass-holder at any mountain prior to the For 20s pass being announced 5 years ago. I would do mostly day trips up to the Catskills and then a few weekend trips a year (one to Sugarbush, and another one or two to Killington and Gore).

When the For 20s pass was announced I was turning 30 that December (so I just barely made the cutoff to qualify for it). I figured for $300 it would pay for itself if I made 2 trips up to SB. Then I thought about it a bit more and said "maybe I should think about looking at buying a condo in the area" as that had always been a dream of mine. I came up late that September to look at condos, ended up making an offer and by November owned a condo at Sugarbush. So thanks to that For 20s pass, I then became a long term passholder (which is exactly what the goal was...keep people skiing in their 20s and hook them for when they get older and will/can pay the full adult price). Ever since that first year I was paying the full adult rate (well at least until this year when the early 30s pass was announced and I qualified). People in their early 20s are not likely to pay the full adult price when they have college debt and are just getting started in the work force. The For 20s was designed to address that issue since the younger people are the future of skiing. You don't want those people to stop skiing because they can't afford it as then they may not come back even when they can afford it.

I am in a sense a perfect example of a success story. Without that pass being offered, who knows if I would have ever ended up buying a condo up here and becoming a long term committed pass holder?

The early 30s pass I don't particularly think is necessary (even though I benefited from it this year). I think the primary reason SB offered it was due to Stowe offering their new young adult pass that covered people up to the age of 34.

[brave fellow]

Let me give you my perspective on the 20s and early 30s pass. I was never a pass-holder at any mountain prior to the For 20s pass being announced 5 years ago. I would do mostly day trips up to the Catskills and then a few weekend trips a year (one to Sugarbush, and another one or two to Killington and Gore).

When the For 20s pass was announced I was turning 30 that December (so I just barely made the cutoff to qualify for it). I figured for $300 it would pay for itself if I made 2 trips up to SB. Then I thought about it a bit more and said "maybe I should think about looking at buying a condo in the area" as that had always been a dream of mine. I came up late that September to look at condos, ended up making an offer and by November owned a condo at Sugarbush. So thanks to that For 20s pass, I then became a long term passholder (which is exactly what the goal was...keep people skiing in their 20s and hook them for when they get older and will/can pay the full adult price). Ever since that first year I was paying the full adult rate (well at least until this year when the early 30s pass was announced and I qualified). People in their early 20s are not likely to pay the full adult price when they have college debt and are just getting started in the work force. The For 20s was designed to address that issue since the younger people are the future of skiing. You don't want those people to stop skiing because they can't afford it as then they may not come back even when they can afford it.

I am in a sense a perfect example of a success story. Without that pass being offered, who knows if I would have ever ended up buying a condo up here and becoming a long term committed pass holder?

The early 30s pass I don't particularly think is necessary (even though I benefited from it this year). I think the primary reason SB offered it was due to Stowe offering their new young adult pass that covered people up to the age of 34.

I'm in the same boat as you. Started going to SB when I was in my late 20s because of the For20s pass. I chose SB over Killington because SB was more about the skiing, Killington seemed to be more about the access road.

When I turned 30, I paid for the full adult pass. Then the early 30s pass became a thing. This helped my wife and I make the decision to purchase a Condo on the mountain as well and we are closing one one in May.

Get people addicted on the cheap drug while they are young and they'll pay full price when they're older. It is VERY WELL DOCUMENTED that the milleniall generation is earning far less than their parents generation and will not achieve the same quality of living.

[cdskier]

I chose SB over Killington because SB was more about the skiing, Killington seemed to be more about the access road.

That reminded me of this picture I took at the Reks a couple weeks ago:
335

Congrats on the upcoming closing of your condo purchase!

[Sugarbushskier9]

I heard that Sugarbush will be on the Mountain Collective pass next season now that Stowe is leaving to go to the Epic pass.

Probably a great move...need to get as much exposure as possible.

[brave fellow]

I heard that Sugarbush will be on the Mountain Collective pass next season now that Stowe is leaving to go to the Epic pass.

Probably a great move...need to get as much exposure as possible.

Haha, trying to influence the future aren't you? What about joining the MAX pass? That would be also benefit season pass holders too.

[Sugarbushskier9]

Haha, trying to influence the future aren't you? What about joining the MAX pass? That would be also benefit season pass holders too.

Haha yeah that would work too...just saying, wait for it. Mountain Collective next season.

[Orca]

Really? $809 unlimited, unrestricted skiing at:
Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Park City, Heavenly, Northstar, Kirkwood, Wilmot, Afton Alps, Mt. Brighton, Perisher (2017 access) and Arapahoe Basin - Plus 5 days at Whistler Blackcomb with holiday restrictions. And now Stowe too!
PLUS
Includes access to 30 European resorts across Austria, France, Italy, and Switzerland!
PLUS
Additional Tickets:
- Six (6) Ski-With-A-Friend (SWAF) varying discount tickets are automatically loaded onto your pass. Just take your guest to the ticket window and present your pass to receive the discount**

C'mon. Are you guys really going to say that you prefer your $1200-1800 passes at SB? Geez. Unless, of course, you are benefiting from an age-based or corporate-based or college-based or some other of the cost carve outs. Maybe next SB will start pricing passes based on religion, state of residence, political party affiliation, eye color, height, weight, blah, blah, blah. :(

[cdskier]

Orca, is epic paying for my airfare, lodging, ground transportation, etc at the western resorts? If not, something tells me those will cost a lot more than the extra $300 or so that an SB pass costs vs Epic.


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[Benski]

I here Vail likes really screw you on parking change something like 25 a day. After 40 days thats an extra thousand dollars so you need to average splitting that between 3.33 people to cover the difference.

[Hawk]

We are speculating on parking. But either way let the cheap people flee from the Bush. If they don't understand what they have here then their loss. Maybe less people in the woods tracking it up. Ha!


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[Orca]

Orca, is epic paying for my airfare, lodging, ground transportation, etc at the western resorts? If not, something tells me those will cost a lot more than the extra $300 or so that an SB pass costs vs Epic.


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No, cdskier, Epic is not paying for those things. And neither is Sugarbush. Your point is irrelevant because it is a false equivalence.

[Orca]

We are speculating on parking. But either way let the cheap people flee from the Bush. If they don't understand what they have here then their loss. Maybe less people in the woods tracking it up. Ha!


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Yes, let people flee from Sugarbush! That is a good plan, except those people that we see as constituting crowds and trackers up of woods are also what businesses refer to as customers.

[Hawk]

Yes, let people flee from Sugarbush! That is a good plan, except those people that we see as constituting crowds and trackers up of woods are also what businesses refer to as customers.

I think you are totally over estimating the impact.


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[cdskier]

No, cdskier, Epic is not paying for those things. And neither is Sugarbush. Your point is irrelevant because it is a false equivalence.

No it isn't a false equivalent. Skiing at sugarbush doesn't involve airfare and if you took the time to read this thread you would know I own a condo here so there's no extra lodging cost for me either. If you don't understand why people like me and others that said we aren't jumping ship are doing so, then you don't understand our reasons for skiing here in the first place. You bringing up the western resorts on the epic pass is what is irrelevant to me as it has limited value for me personally.

Feel free to do what you want, but saving 300 to deal with the crowds you will see at Stowe with that cheap of a pass is not my cup of tea.


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[Sugarbushskier9]

I think you are totally over estimating the impact.


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Likewise I think the crowd issue at Stowe is likely being overstated. Holidays and Saturdays with good snow will likely be busy but they'll be busy anywhere. A foot of snow falls on Friday before a February weekend and I'm waiting for 25 minutes at the base of Castlerock for my first run.

The end result is you have multiple layers of customers. There are the people like Hawk, cdskier, etc that are very loyal fans. Those people aren't going anywhere even if Sugarbush charges $2,200 for a pass or Stowe/Killington/Jay offered free passes. Especially if you own something at a given mountain its silly to even talk about it.

Normally the segment that is passionate enough to come onto a chat board about said area isn't going to leave no matter what happens. With that said, there is a huge portion of skiers that aren't as passionate and do make choices based on prices or other attributes. Those are the ones that Win will need to figure out how to keep.

[Sugarbushskier9]

Feel free to do what you want, but saving 300 to deal with the crowds you will see at Stowe with that cheap of a pass is not my cup of tea.



Yeah this just highlights my point about the hardcore passionate crowd isn't going anywhere regardless. Before it was i wouldn't pay the extra money to go to Stowe. Now its I wouldn't go to Stowe to save some money. Bottom line is no matter what happens you aren't going to Stowe.

[cdskier]

Yeah this just highlights my point about the hardcore passionate crowd isn't going anywhere regardless. Before it was i wouldn't pay the extra money to go to Stowe. Now its I wouldn't go to Stowe to save some money. Bottom line is no matter what happens you aren't going to Stowe.

Saving money is one thing, but it isn't just about the money for many people. That was my point. If price was the only concern, there are places even cheaper people could go.

Don't get me wrong, Stowe has some great terrain (although I do still prefer SB). You say the crowd issue is being overblown. Maybe it is a bit, but you also have to consider the simple fact that SB can handle more people than STowe can. SB has over 25k hourly uphill capacity vs stowe's 15.5k. That's a pretty big difference. Sure on a powder day CR can have a long line, but that is one lift and there are plenty of others to pick from. At Stowe if the four runner has a long line, that's a big chunk of terrain you are waiting to access. Up until this point, stowe's high price has helped keep the crowds in check a bit. Epic can certainly change that. Maybe it won't. Maybe it will. Only time will tell.

Much like Hawk though, I don't believe we will see a mass exodus from SB. There will still be plenty of people here. Even for people that are concerned about price, there are still a variety of scenarios where SB will be cheaper than epic. We can have fun with the math once everyone actually announces their new pass prices. Right now there are simply a lot of assumptions and speculation being made.




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[Orca]

$2,200 SB passes v. free Stowe passes??? Do you have brain damage or do you have some sort of fetish for Win Smith? You might just represent the 1% --- of Win adulators that is. Good grief.

The IRON LAW is that is always comes down to economics. Sentimentalism be damned.

Wake up! :)

[cdskier]

Well this is very entertaining. [emoji3]


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[Hawk]

$2,200 SB passes v. free Stowe passes??? Do you have brain damage or do you have some sort of fetish for Win Smith? You might just represent the 1% --- of Win adulators that is. Good grief.

The IRON LAW is that is always comes down to economics. Sentimentalism be damned.

Wake up! :)

We are talking about $300 here and that does not sway me to move. Everybody here knows my history With Win but my only real gripe is snow making. He has done a good job on pretty much everything else. I will say that if you don't think that the new pass will not make Stowe considerably more busy then we will see. In the end that will be a small fraction of people from all other places. After all we are talking one resort. They can't absorb that many more people but a 10-20% increase on the weekends will crush them. The expensive tickets are what regulated the crowds. I skied at Stowe a fair bit and know a lot of people there. The locals are all scared of this deal. I don't blame them


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[djd66]

$2,200 SB passes v. free Stowe passes??? Do you have brain damage or do you have some sort of fetish for Win Smith? You might just represent the 1% --- of Win adulators that is. Good grief.

The IRON LAW is that is always comes down to economics. Sentimentalism be damned.

Wake up! :)

Thanks for the Chuckle Orca :)

I agree with you,... This will certainly have an impact on SB season pass holders,.... I'm selfishly hoping it will impact my experience in a good way - by decreasing traffic at SB.

Few things to consider:
1) For the 4-20's and the 30's - now for an extra $300 - they can go to Stowe and all the other Vail resorts
2) for the full price SB pass holders - that do not own real estate in the MRV, there will certainly be people the move to Stowe - as its 300 bucks cheaper and you get all the other areas on the pass
3) for Anyone one that skis out west 1x per year - this pass is a serious bargain! The MTN collective pass does nothing for me - unless I can ski at 1 area for 6 days.

[william]

Thanks for the Chuckle Orca :)

I agree with you,... This will certainly have an impact on SB season pass holders,.... I'm selfishly hoping it will impact my experience in a good way - by decreasing traffic at SB.

Few things to consider:
1) For the 4-20's and the 30's - now for an extra $300 - they can go to Stowe and all the other Vail resorts
2) for the full price SB pass holders - that do not own real estate in the MRV, there will certainly be people the move to Stowe - as its 300 bucks cheaper and you get all the other areas on the pass
3) for Anyone one that skis out west 1x per year - this pass is a serious bargain! The MTN collective pass does nothing for me - unless I can ski at 1 area for 6 days.

The fact that you can go to any area for 6 days or more or even make multiple trips will be very hard to pass up at the epic current price

[Orca]

Thanks for the Chuckle Orca :)

I agree with you,... This will certainly have an impact on SB season pass holders,.... I'm selfishly hoping it will impact my experience in a good way - by decreasing traffic at SB.

Few things to consider:
1) For the 4-20's and the 30's - now for an extra $300 - they can go to Stowe and all the other Vail resorts
2) for the full price SB pass holders - that do not own real estate in the MRV, there will certainly be people the move to Stowe - as its 300 bucks cheaper and you get all the other areas on the pass
3) for Anyone one that skis out west 1x per year - this pass is a serious bargain! The MTN collective pass does nothing for me - unless I can ski at 1 area for 6 days.

Thanks, cdskier and djd66, for taking my post in the humorous spirit in which it was intended. I read the post this morning and realized it could be read as personally insulting. I didn't mean it that way; please take no insult, Sugarbushskier9. Just having some fun. :)

[sglatham]

First of all everyone here is just speculating at this point (So I will too).

Secondly, nobody here seems to have taken an economics course. If the pricing is such that everyone flocks to Stowe via the EPIC pass, then both Stowe and SB will react by changing pricing. Of course they will model this out beforehand to try to set the right price initially, but if they mess up it will be corrected in season two. So don't go sell your condo based on the initial pricing!

But I believe Stowe/Vail has a very good idea of the sensitivity of season pass pricing to the demand for such passes, and that if they feel they are at capacity at current pricing then pricing will not change. In fact, if they feel demand will increase significantly due to the added benefits of the Epic pass then whose to say they don't RAISE the price for a "Stowe pass with Epic benefits"? I would.

Supply and demand in a profit seeking capitalist structure.

[winjr]

Thanks for all the free advice. We are deep in analysis locked away in one of the snowmaking bunkers so no one overhears our strategic plans which we may announce around the Ides of March.

Think Snow so we will have a fun March & April 8)

[teleo]

We are deep in analysis locked away in one of the snowmaking bunkers

While you are in there, can you turn on the compressors and send shady's crew out to turn on the towers on snowball and fling on Sat so we have something soft to ski? Will be super efficient with the cold and provide more base for late April😉

I know, probably not gonna happen, but one can hope.

[winjr]

While you are in there, can you turn on the compressors and send shady's crew out to turn on the towers on snowball and fling on Sat so we have something soft to ski? Will be super efficient with the cold and provide more base for late April��

I know, probably not gonna happen, but one can hope.

The groomers will make it plenty soft. Two nights should do it. Monday and Tuesday were very nice. Shady abd team are running the lifts now.

[winjr]

[QUOTE=teleo;227085]While you are in there, can you turn on the compressors and send shady's crew out to turn on the towers on snowball and fling on Sat so we have something soft to ski? Will be super efficient with the cold and provide more base for late April��

I know, probably not gonna happen, but one can hope.[/QUO

Ps. We will keep monitoring

[Orca]

Re passes (SB, Epic, MAX, Mountain Collective): I am extremely seriously considering not renewing my family's passes for next year. My youngest just turned 13 and her pass next year will up my expenses another $300 or more. It is starting to feel like a lot of money and that there are other options out there. I often stay in Waterbury; Stowe is equidistant.

Epic and Mountain Collective are great if you are planning a trip out west. MAX is great for skiing around the east a good bit. All cost a lot less than SB passes.

Plus the gambling game on quad packs has gotten less attractive as it is starting to prove to be a poor value with last year's non-winter and this year's early melt. Without March snows or SB miraculously getting snowmaking going, my quad pack tickets seem like they'll be used for some pretty mediocre skiing provided I can convince my friends the conditions are worth the trouble to drive north. Otherwise, they'll expire again this year.

I am sure it is only me, but SB's fetish with ageist pricing for adult passes irks me and diminishes my sense of loyalty and goodwill. I am in the age group that SB has decided should subsidize the age groups that receive more favorable pricing.

[cdskier]

I am sure it is only me, but SB's fetish with ageist pricing for adult passes irks me and diminishes my sense of loyalty and goodwill. I am in the age group that SB has decided should subsidize the age groups that receive more favorable pricing.

So what's your solution? Charge people in their 20s straight out of college full adult prices? In which case they decide that is too much money at that point and drop out of the sport and never come back? That's exactly what was happening with the old pricing strategy and it was not painting a bright future for sustainability of the sport. Back when the For 20s was announced it was discussed that a major goal was to reverse that trend and get people to keep skiing until they are older, making more money, done paying off college debt, etc and have them hooked by that point. You're really not "subsidizing" anything. In theory even though passes like the For 20s are cheaper, they should make up for that in volume sales. I would bet good money that if you looked at how many 20-30 year olds bought full passes before vs how many buy them now with the cheaper pricing, the number is substantially higher. So even if the price is 1/3 of a full pass, if you simply triple your sales in that age category you're now bringing in the same amount of pass revenue. Increase sales further and you're exceeding your previous revenue from that age category. And now you have more people going to the mountain and potentially spending more on other things (i.e. drinks, food, etc).

On the flip side, you've benefited from a free 12 and under pass based on your comments. At many other resorts you would have been paying for that pass. That is a benefit SB has that is often overlooked when people talk purely about pass prices.

There are pros and cons to all the other passes you mentioned as well. Price is only one factor in the equation. They each can be great under the right circumstances for the right person.

[nhskier1969]

coming to a vail mountain property near you....
337

[muddy_hollow]

So what's your solution? Charge people in their 20s straight out of college full adult prices? In which case they decide that is too much money at that point and drop out of the sport and never come back? That's exactly what was happening with the old pricing strategy and it was not painting a bright future for sustainability of the sport. Back when the For 20s was announced it was discussed that a major goal was to reverse that trend and get people to keep skiing until they are older, making more money, done paying off college debt, etc and have them hooked by that point. You're really not "subsidizing" anything. In theory even though passes like the For 20s are cheaper, they should make up for that in volume sales. I would bet good money that if you looked at how many 20-30 year olds bought full passes before vs how many buy them now with the cheaper pricing, the number is substantially higher. So even if the price is 1/3 of a full pass, if you simply triple your sales in that age category you're now bringing in the same amount of pass revenue. Increase sales further and you're exceeding your previous revenue from that age category. And now you have more people going to the mountain and potentially spending more on other things (i.e. drinks, food, etc).

On the flip side, you've benefited from a free 12 and under pass based on your comments. At many other resorts you would have been paying for that pass. That is a benefit SB has that is often overlooked when people talk purely about pass prices.

There are pros and cons to all the other passes you mentioned as well. Price is only one factor in the equation. They each can be great under the right circumstances for the right person.


For two adults and one teen, my bill is substantially cheaper this year. Plus friends who bought quad packs are choosing to buy season passes.



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[Benski]

coming to a vail mountain property near you....
337

Looks like the Bluebird at Mt Snow.

[muddy_hollow]

Win cameo on wcax. http://www.wcax.com/story/34972498/will-stowe-sale-mean-cheaper-ski-passes-elsewhere


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[Northerner]

The name of the game right now is to get people on your pass. They commit before the season to using your resorts, and you have them locked in for all the other stuff -- lodging, lessons, etc. We have found the Ikon, Max, and Epic passes to be worthwhile values if you can make use of them. What we don't like is that we are locked-in to certain ski areas before we know what the winter conditions will be like.

I don't think these acquisitions are about higher rates, I think they are about getting more people to commit to the Epic pass.