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Benski
09-02-2015, 04:56 PM
I saw in an email from sugarbush The Valley House quad will be ready to go opening day. Does that mean it will run that weekend because it would be unusual for any of the trails to be ready to go that weekend.

sbskier
09-03-2015, 07:59 AM
Yah they said that about the Northridge the last two years

HowieT2
09-03-2015, 12:14 PM
I saw in an email from sugarbush The Valley House quad will be ready to go opening day. Does that mean it will run that weekend because it would be unusual for any of the trails to be ready to go that weekend.

"ready to go" does not mean running. depends on whether the trails over there are open.

cdskier
09-03-2015, 04:41 PM
"ready to go" does not mean running. depends on whether the trails over there are open.

Agreed. If weather cooperates I could see them potentially making a push to get Spring Fling open early just to show off the lift.

Benski
09-03-2015, 07:11 PM
I doubt they will open spring fling that early without a dump. That would be nice but I doubt they will be able to make snow over that low that early. Having the vhq ready that for opening day would give them a month to troubleshoot before they need it. They could also open the vhq for lift rides just to try it out.

gostan
09-04-2015, 07:01 AM
Let's not get greedy. We should all be satisfied if the mountain is able to open this Thanksgiving all of the trails that were open last Thanksgiving. Notwithstanding all of the E-Guns that $$ can buy, Mother Nature has a lot to say about what opens and when.

Happy Labor Day.

vonski
09-04-2015, 10:12 AM
It would take a dump to get that side of the mountain open. It has happened as I recall skiing an empty mountain on Thanksgiving one year. That whole side was covered in a wet heavy snow that was incredible but being early season killed my legs to the point that I made it only a few hours on Friday as my legs were jiggly worms from the get go on Friday! So Ma Nature will have to provide as a Big Turkey Leg!

Tin Woodsman
09-04-2015, 02:37 PM
while I don't anticipate that they'll deviate from the standard Downspout/Lower Jester/Gondolier run, it's worth noting that it would be a lot easier and quicker (and cheaper) to just cover Snow Ball/Spring Fling. It's not like you gain much in the way of elevation advantage by going with the traditional route, though I suppose it's closer to the ridge line and more protected from sun/wind. I'd be interested to see them experiment with this approach. Then they could expand to Lower Snow Ball/Racers Edge and then Reverse Traverse over to Glade, Lower Jester and Lower OG for multiple ways down.

Then again, not sure RT has snowmaking, in which case nevermind.

Benski
09-04-2015, 04:16 PM
reverse traverse does not have snowmaking.The reason they start on Heavens Gate is because they can at least make enough snow on Jester before lower mountain trails are even an option.

sglatham
09-05-2015, 09:20 AM
I would be interested to hear a mountain ops person view on this, but I bet that in the month of November there is typically TWICE as many snowmaking hours from Alyns lodge up mountain than there are from VH lift down Mountian. I recall many many times over the past couple of years reading comments on the snow report that they were expanding coverage up top ( to OG or RC for instance) before hitting the run out simply because they could make snow up top but not on the run out.

Concrete flies on Tuesday!

Dblshot
09-05-2015, 11:09 AM
It is not quicker and cheaper to cover Snowball->Spring Fling compared to the run out from HG. Those two trails are substantially more acreage and get hammered by the sun. Plus you are already at the bottom of HG so just keep going down. Early season is all about chasing temps. Opening the main mountain is the right way to go, then to gatehouse for beginners then to VH side then up to NL. I just hope this year they bounce around more instead of parking on a trail for a week and making piles.

cdskier
09-10-2015, 04:41 PM
Interesting...from today's Stoke Exchange blog: "With the Valley House lift loading adjacent to Super Bravo, the feel of the base area is very different. Terrain access at Lincoln Peak is going to be altered too and may result in early season snowmaking plan changes. Stay tuned for updates."

I still think the plan they've used the past couple years was pretty good for spreading out pretty quickly to different mountain areas to spread the people and abilities out, but we'll have to wait and see the details on this.

angler
09-10-2015, 09:55 PM
There is no reason why they couldn't do that. Other mountains make top to bottom snow for opening day. It would change the dynamics of the mountain for the beginning of the season. In a thread from last year this option was brought up and if I remember correctly Win joined in the conversation and indicated that it could be a possibility that was being considered. It would be nice not to put everyone through death spout!

Hawk
09-11-2015, 07:51 AM
Death spout is unavoidable in the first few weeks of the season. As stated above they will open HG first because that is what early season temps command. They will do downloading before they even have a top to bottom route. it is not until steady 20 - 25 degree temps at the bottom that they will be able to blow other routes to get people down. But once they do have the temps I bet they will blow Spring Fling and Snow Ball sooner than later. I am sure they will want to run the new lift as it will be good publicity. If you also remember, they put all new snowmaking pipes on those trails last year so they run pretty efficiently. Can't wait.

Dblshot
09-11-2015, 12:00 PM
I hope the plan is to run VH 7 days a week not just weekends and holidays.

gostan
09-11-2015, 12:06 PM
I know Valley House is new, but Do you really think there is such demand, other than during vacation weeks?


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Hawk
09-11-2015, 12:53 PM
I would expect the new lift to run every weekend, vacation weeks, Holidays and when any of the other lifts shut down on mechanical or wind. During the mid week when there are no lines it makes no sense to run it because you can get to the terrain from Bravo.

Benski
09-11-2015, 04:12 PM
I would not run it regularly till the the weekend before mt. ellen opens then only days with lines at bravo or no bravo. Basically just weekends and holidays with some exceptions for powder days. Might be a good idea to give it a spin earlier. The stoke exchange did hint they might change the snowmaking plan.

My hope is they just skip lower downspout since it is a pretty lame trail and open lower organ grinder instead. last year they made snow on lower grinder and gondolier all at once so it would not take any longer.

cdskier
09-11-2015, 10:04 PM
Let's assume temps cooperate and they can make snow top to bottom for opening day. Obviously making snow off of HG is first purely due to temps. But once temps are colder lower down, do we think they would shift to get VH Traverse over to Spring Fling open instead of Lower Downspout and/or Lower OG? I'd have to say if temps cooperate that would not surprise me with the new lift. Some of the comments I'm seeing are people saying you have to make snow up top first. I don't think anyone is disputing that and I'm sure Sugarbush wouldn't deviate from that strategy either. The question is what do you make snow on once you have snow to the bottom of HG? Keep in mind that they have been top to bottom opening day the past couple seasons (although last year was actually only top of bravo to bottom due to the HG chair auxiliary motor/reinspection issue).

As for when the lift would run, I really don't see a reason to run it mid-week unless Bravo is down for some reason. There simply isn't demand to justify it. I'd say the schedule of the new VH chair should match the schedule of the old VH chair. The only bonus now is that when Bravo is down, you don't have to hike up to the VH chair and the chair will also better handle the capacity in those situations.

Tin Woodsman
09-15-2015, 11:55 AM
Let's assume temps cooperate and they can make snow top to bottom for opening day. Obviously making snow off of HG is first purely due to temps. But once temps are colder lower down, do we think they would shift to get VH Traverse over to Spring Fling open instead of Lower Downspout and/or Lower OG? I'd have to say if temps cooperate that would not surprise me with the new lift. Some of the comments I'm seeing are people saying you have to make snow up top first. I don't think anyone is disputing that and I'm sure Sugarbush wouldn't deviate from that strategy either. The question is what do you make snow on once you have snow to the bottom of HG? Keep in mind that they have been top to bottom opening day the past couple seasons (although last year was actually only top of bravo to bottom due to the HG chair auxiliary motor/reinspection issue).

As for when the lift would run, I really don't see a reason to run it mid-week unless Bravo is down for some reason. There simply isn't demand to justify it. I'd say the schedule of the new VH chair should match the schedule of the old VH chair. The only bonus now is that when Bravo is down, you don't have to hike up to the VH chair and the chair will also better handle the capacity in those situations.

I guess it depends if you think the new lift is going to be a/the catalyst for any such change. If yes, then it would seem to be an inefficient way to open the mountain insofar as you then need three lifts running (VH, SB, HG) instead of the normal two. If there were snowmaking on RT, then you could go with just 2 lifts, but there isn't. So that begs the question why they would change the snowmaking plan. If it's b/c they have a lot of conviction around the ability to open Snowball/Spring Fling quickly due to the recent snowmaking investments, that's a different story. But would still need to understand how it all comes together.

FWIW, it was mentioned previously that you wouldn't due Snowball/Spring Fling early in part b/c it gets hammered by the sun. The reality is that in mid-November, the sun angle is equivalent to where it is in late January. Net/net, it's not the sun angle that's the problem early, it's the temps, and that impacts Lower Downspout just as much as any other lower mtn trail.

cdskier
09-15-2015, 06:57 PM
I guess it depends if you think the new lift is going to be a/the catalyst for any such change. If yes, then it would seem to be an inefficient way to open the mountain insofar as you then need three lifts running (VH, SB, HG) instead of the normal two. If there were snowmaking on RT, then you could go with just 2 lifts, but there isn't. So that begs the question why they would change the snowmaking plan. If it's b/c they have a lot of conviction around the ability to open Snowball/Spring Fling quickly due to the recent snowmaking investments, that's a different story. But would still need to understand how it all comes together.

Well, I don't think the new lift "should" be a catalyst for a change, but the recent comment in the stoke exchange seems to indicate it could be. Good point about the lack of snowmaking on RT. You're absolutely right that they would always have to run SB as a result to get you access to HG via Downspout. Unless they do something crazy like make giant piles of snow at the entrance and exit to RT and try to push it around to cover RT...but I really don't see that being a good idea. As I'm typing this, I also realized that RT alone still wouldn't get you over to the HG chair since HG Traverse also has no snowmaking. So anyway you look at it, you need SB early in the season until the natural stuff falls to cover RT and HG Traverse.

southvillager
09-16-2015, 07:53 AM
If I were given the choice, I would rather ski early season laps on Snowball-Spring Fling than Deathspout-Jester-Lower Downspout-Gondolier. And in my opinion, Lower Dounspout and Gondolier are throwaways, and they are so long, the snowmaking effort must be huge. If they don't make early snow on them, they we have to download, which is no fun.

If they blow off the top-to-bottom quest, I think the early skiing would be way more fun off of the new quad. No long boring runout. Then open HG when Ripcord, OG, and Jester are all ready.

gostan
09-16-2015, 08:10 AM
There is not one of us who would not opt to avoid Deathspout, but it is a necessity we have to deal with. Personally, my 66 year old body & mind hate to deal with early season downloading. It is a disruptive PIA.


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Hawk
09-16-2015, 09:44 AM
Personally I don't care what the configuration is. Deathspout, Downloading, walking, whatever. Just open the lifts as early as possible and then figure out what to do next. Lets face it. Most on here are not going to be up and skiing until there is top to bottom in early December anyway. It is my educated opinion that nothing is really going to change as far as snowmaking lineups and schedules. This new lift only adds additional capacity, convince and hopefully reliability.

Also I honestly do not see what the big deal is with Downspout anyway. Everybody posting can ski well enough and it is only early season you have to deal with it. embrace it! it will make you stronger. Think of it as training. ;-)

skimore
09-16-2015, 12:10 PM
The VH lift should be open every weekend @ 9:00am with all other lifts, period, paid for it, built, run it. I use to ski at a resort that had two lifts that loaded in close proximity similar to these, they would wait until the lines were out of the corals before opening the other lift.
VH chair should be the go to lift if Bravo is indicating experiencing any delays in opening at 8:00am. I must be thinking like a crazy man to think there is a contingency plan in place.

mrvpilgrim
09-16-2015, 12:28 PM
Here is an idea from way out in left field
Certainly one with no historical precedence.
In order to showcase the new quad what if they moved Steins up in the snow making schedule
I am questing it is less than half the acreage compared to blowing Snowball to Spring fling ,and its northern exposure might help in preserving an early season base.
On the downside it would probably appeal to a somewhat limited group of skiers as compared to Snowball

Benski
09-16-2015, 12:47 PM
Stiens is too steep. The last thing I want to do when I am getting back in my rhythm is ski a double black dimond goomer which with way too many people on it and a lot of ice. They need to start with an intermediate run.

HowieT2
09-16-2015, 01:50 PM
The VH lift should be open every weekend @ 9:00am with all other lifts, period, paid for it, built, run it. I use to ski at a resort that had two lifts that loaded in close proximity similar to these, they would wait until the lines were out of the corals before opening the other lift.
VH chair should be the go to lift if Bravo is indicating experiencing any delays in opening at 8:00am. I must be thinking like a crazy man to think there is a contingency plan in place.

Is there any question it will run weekends/holidays?
I mean it would be pretty insane to spend 3m on a new lift just to look at it and not use it.

cdskier
09-16-2015, 03:21 PM
Personally I don't care what the configuration is. Deathspout, Downloading, walking, whatever. Just open the lifts as early as possible and then figure out what to do next. Lets face it. Most on here are not going to be up and skiing until there is top to bottom in early December anyway.

I'm happy that they are planning to open the weekend before Thanksgiving (weather permitting of course). If they are open, my goal is to be there opening day like I did last year. After that I won't be back until probably the 2nd or 3rd week of December when I start using up all my remaining vacation days from work for the year.

So for the most part you're right that it doesn't matter what is open that early.

Dblshot
09-16-2015, 04:04 PM
I think it will be weekends, holidays and when Bravo is having issues. I would like it to run everyday I am skiing because I get sick of doing that traverse over to Snowball and I enjoy the ride much more so than Bravo. The only thing Reverse Traverse is good for is a stopping point cming out of the woods, it's uphill!!!

Hawk
09-16-2015, 04:42 PM
YES this!!!!! That's not left field my friend.


Here is an idea from way out in left field
Certainly one with no historical precedence.
In order to showcase the new quad what if they moved Steins up in the snow making schedule
I am questing it is less than half the acreage compared to blowing Snowball to Spring fling ,and its northern exposure might help in preserving an early season base.
On the downside it would probably appeal to a somewhat limited group of skiers as compared to Snowball

Hawk
09-16-2015, 04:44 PM
I'm happy that they are planning to open the weekend before Thanksgiving (weather permitting of course). If they are open, my goal is to be there opening day like I did last year. After that I won't be back until probably the 2nd or 3rd week of December when I start using up all my remaining vacation days from work for the year.

So for the most part you're right that it doesn't matter what is open that early.

Great. See you there. You and Howie.

Hawk
09-16-2015, 04:46 PM
I think it will be weekends, holidays and when Bravo is having issues. I would like it to run everyday I am skiing because I get sick of doing that traverse over to Snowball and I enjoy the ride much more so than Bravo. The only thing Reverse Traverse is good for is a stopping point cming out of the woods, it's uphill!!!

So the guys working up top told me last spring that they were gong to work on Reverse Traverse and take out the hump so it would not be up hill from the new lift. Not sure how they will do that but we will see.

HowieT2
09-16-2015, 09:08 PM
Great. See you there. You and Howie.

I can't wait now although I'm still working out my situation.

HowieT2
09-16-2015, 09:13 PM
So the guys working up top told me last spring that they were gong to work on Reverse Traverse and take out the hump so it would not be up hill from the new lift. Not sure how they will do that but we will see.
I think that's doable. I wonder what it's going to look like when it's all final graded. They still have that work to do up there. There's a steep drop, err, cliff where the chair lands in to the mall. Hard to tell from the pictures I posted but it's a drop off right now.

Chewbarka
09-17-2015, 10:23 AM
That's there to weed out the riff raff...

Benski
09-17-2015, 10:29 AM
And for some people to show off there skills.

HowieT2
09-17-2015, 11:28 AM
That's there to weed out the riff raff...

could be Sb's answer to Corbetts

Dblshot
09-17-2015, 01:33 PM
I'm thinking a cut through from both Stein's and Snowball. That's a lot of fill to get to there

vonski
09-17-2015, 08:05 PM
It will keep the ladies from shopping in the MALL. lol

ManyTurns
09-18-2015, 04:45 PM
I think that's doable. I wonder what it's going to look like when it's all final graded. They still have that work to do up there. There's a steep drop, err, cliff where the chair lands in to the mall. Hard to tell from the pictures I posted but it's a drop off right now.

In downhill mountain biking, that would be called a "filter feature." It's a tough obstacle at the beginning of trail intended to keep people from going where they don't belong. In this case though, it sounds like the feature is excessive.

mrvpilgrim
09-18-2015, 08:59 PM
Took the dog for a hike up to the upper terminal a couple of weeks ago
While the drop in looks intimidating it is not that long and I am thinking they will push some snow over the edge to ease the transition.
Even as it is I am not sure it is a whole lot different from the drop in to Steins next door , upper organ grinder or even lower Domino for that matter. Certainly not as harrowing as dropping into some of the glades such as Egan’s Woods or Lews Line

Benski
09-19-2015, 01:18 AM
Can you go around the drop? I would assume the lift will block most of the trail for a short distance.

HowieT2
09-19-2015, 09:14 AM
Can you go around the drop? I would assume the lift will block most of the trail for a short distance.

Of course. I assume the drop will be blocked by the lift shack.

winjr
10-09-2015, 09:39 AM
I've answered most of this in the Valley House forum. VH will run Friday-Sunday and Holidays. If we see more skiers than we traditionally have midweek, I will consider running in more, but not this year.

Hawk
10-23-2015, 06:28 AM
Well it is time to start the season. I am doing my annual visit to Sunday River to see old friends. Looks like they have a window tonight to add some more snow to the base they crated last weekend. Always fun to go back and hang with all the people we left behind so many years ago. Its really amazing how amped up I still get just to go and ski one trail. I can hardly work today.

Ride Delaware ?
10-23-2015, 09:04 AM
Enjoy it over there Hawk. I haven't been back since I left 3 years ago. The logistics just haven't worked out. I should have hit Killington on my way home Tuesday, but I'm still rehabbing an ankle injury and decided it wasn't worth the risk...

gostan
10-23-2015, 09:19 AM
Well it is time to start the season. I am doing my annual visit to Sunday River to see old friends. Looks like they have a window tonight to add some more snow to the base they crated last weekend. Always fun to go back and hang with all the people we left behind so many years ago. Its really amazing how amped up I still get just to go and ski one trail. I can hardly work today. Good For You. Have a great early (I should say "pre") season day/weekend.

Spartan82
10-30-2015, 08:33 PM
I hope I am wrong, but the forecast for the next seven days does not look good for snowmaking. Highs in the upper 50s in the valley don't bode well for snow that will stick around.

sglatham
10-30-2015, 09:01 PM
I hope I am wrong, but the forecast for the next seven days does not look good for snowmaking. Highs in the upper 50s in the valley don't bode well for snow that will stick around.

I think you have it right. Time to be patient. Looks like a warm November.

Ride Delaware ?
10-30-2015, 11:50 PM
Forecast is trending toward seasonable temps starting the second full week of November if forecasts hold. I'm hoping for a cold stretch after that, but downloading might be possible on opening day...

angler
10-31-2015, 11:23 AM
We only need 3 days of snowmaking temp for the mountain to get springfling and snowball ready....

Ride Delaware ?
10-31-2015, 11:41 AM
We only need 3 days of snowmaking temp for the mountain to get springfling and snowball ready....
3 days of optimal snowmaking. Things would really have to change for that to occur. But anything is possible...

angler
10-31-2015, 02:14 PM
Next weekend looks like it might be the right temps to start the party. Keep the fingers crossed!

jwt
11-05-2015, 08:52 AM
Next weekend looks like it might be the right temps to start the party. Keep the fingers crossed!

hows this for a bright prediction?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/616937/GLOBAL-COOLING-Decade-long-ice-age-predicted-as-sun-hibernates?_ga=1.27798712.582488868.1446731759

Dblshot
11-06-2015, 09:27 AM
Window looks very small for Saturday night into Sunday morning with a decent warm up next week into the 40's. Not worth it.

Hawk
11-06-2015, 01:34 PM
Went Mountain biking last night and it was 70 degrees. Not feeling like winter at all. I hope this trend ends soon.

sglatham
11-07-2015, 09:36 AM
We're getting some consistency from models and forecasters that things start to change as we head toward the weekend of 21st. Whether it will come in time and strong enough for Thanksgiving is a good question. There may be an opportunity to make some snow before then, but the (warm) wind will still be in your face.

Ride Delaware ?
11-07-2015, 11:18 AM
Yes, models are finally trending towards consistency about two weeks out. At the very least we should be skiing and riding with some downloading by Thanksgiving. We just need the models to hold.

cdskier
11-07-2015, 03:37 PM
If the weather doesn't cooperate for opening November 21, then I probably won't be able to get up there until the 2nd week of December.

Ride Delaware ?
11-07-2015, 06:26 PM
If the weather doesn't cooperate for opening November 21, then I probably won't be able to get up there until the 2nd week of December.
The models are obviously a crapshoot this far out, but I would say that you should really ramp up your snow dancing...

Benski
11-07-2015, 09:05 PM
I blame howieT2. Someone tricked him in to believing a prayer from r@#$ is actually a prayer for snow. He as been spreading this false rumor for years.

cdskier
11-08-2015, 09:40 AM
Well according to Facebook, Snowmaking has begun this morning. Seems a bit surprising.

Benski
11-08-2015, 10:39 AM
I suspect it's a test. No way that show makes it to opening day and when they finally get a window and are scrambling to open the last thing they want to happen is find a problem that could have been addressed weeks ago.

sglatham
11-08-2015, 12:22 PM
I agree this looks more like a test, combined with a little marketing psych. Too warm for too long this week IMHO for anything but huge whales to survive and I doubt they can get that down during this window. But there continue to be indications that things cool down starting this weekend and while it doesn't lock in it does look like multiple snowmaking Windows with shorter, less anomalous warm ups, going into Thanksgiving. Might be tough to make 21 though.

steamboat1
11-08-2015, 01:13 PM
Picture I saw this morning showed them blowing Organgrinder & I think Jester.

angler
11-08-2015, 05:18 PM
I don't think it is a test, looking at the forecast there is definite windows to blow snow this week!!! Have to think positive!!!!

Plowboy
11-08-2015, 08:09 PM
They were blowing Rim Run and Elbow all day today too!!

cdskier
11-08-2015, 08:12 PM
If they were blowing trails all day, then I'm thinking they think the snow will stick around and not all melt (or at least that there's a chance it will make it). I wish they had some better webcam views showing more of the mountain.

Ride Delaware ?
11-09-2015, 12:30 AM
Is North's opening earlier in the season this year? If it's the typical December 21st ish date, it seems awfully early to start blowing on Rim Run and Elbow...

Benski
11-09-2015, 12:51 AM
Is North's opening earlier in the season this year? If it's the typical December 21st ish date, it seems awfully early to start blowing on Rim Run and Elbow...
They usually start both mountains at the same time. They tend to make snow for longer periods of time at mount Ellen and have a base down on all or most snowmaking routes by opening day for mount Ellen.

Plowboy
11-09-2015, 12:28 PM
Is North's opening earlier in the season this year? If it's the typical December 21st ish date, it seems awfully early to start blowing on Rim Run and Elbow...

This pic was from 11/8/14 (stolen from a famous groomer @ ME). Too warm for lower elevations, maybe they are blowing on top for GMVS and a base for opening day?

Ride Delaware ?
11-09-2015, 01:14 PM
Inverness is definitely for GMVS, but the others are for the public...

shadyjay
11-09-2015, 10:27 PM
Snowmaking kicked off this past Saturday night at both Lincoln Peak and Mt Ellen. Once again, my crew were the ones to fire up the first guns, starting just after midnight Sat night/Sun morn. Jester and Organgrinder, down to roughly the last set of curves on Jester before Allyn's Traverse. Pretty wet but good for a base, and a good test as well. We were also, unfortunately, the first crew to shut down, doing so at about 5am Monday AM. We have new "land guns" which have replaced the old ratnicks, so when temps are right, we should be able to run one continuous loop from the summit down to (at least) Heaven's Gate. The new land guns use very little air. But air or no, the temps just aren't low enough yet.

Over at Mt Ellen, I believe they fired up some of Panorama, Rim Run, and Elbow. Temps were too warm down low to blow on Inverness, so they stayed up high.

I'll be posting all my snowmaking shots here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/sets/72157660257834278/

Think COLD and SNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

winjr
11-10-2015, 07:49 AM
Even though we don't open ME until December, we start snowmaking on both mountains after November 1st whenever possible. If temps allow we will focus on Inverness first so GMVS can start training there after Thanksgiving. Inverness is 25 acres so it takes a lot of snow to give it the depth needed to set gates. If temps are not good we will make up high as we did last weekend. As Shady Jay said the temps were marginal but it begins to build a base, test the equipment and get new staff trained. The new land guns will make a big difference too on trails where towers do not work. Looks like we may have another window this weekend up high.

sglatham
11-11-2015, 09:15 AM
Just shows you how important elevation is. I am surprised you could make it through until 5am Monday.

Should be a window this weekend and maybe some natural too. Unfortunately, what once looked like a brief and minor warm up thereafter is looking more like what we've been used to this month. BUT various long range models and forecasters are seeing a pattern change as we get to the last week of November. I just hope its quick and deep enough to get open for Thanksgiving.

Good to hear from Shady Jay about the new guns - that should mean opening on a smaller window than previous years, which looks to be the case this year.

THINK SNOW!

winjr
11-12-2015, 07:25 AM
Looks like a small window Friday night through Sunday morning and then warming up again through next week. An 11/21 opening does not look good but a couple of cold days and nights can change everything,

Ride Delaware ?
11-12-2015, 12:53 PM
Looking at the long range temps, it looks like some sustained nighttime temps below freezing at the base will pop up the 21st of November. If that were the case, with the ability to blow a single loop from Jester to HG, we could see some type of opening with downloading for Thanksgiving weekend. I'll keep the hope alive, but with it projected to be almost 50 for a whole week, it seems we are fighting against the curve for Nov. 21.

gostan
11-14-2015, 06:18 AM
Beginning to look like winter.

HowieT2
11-14-2015, 06:59 AM
Beginning to look like winter.

And so it begins.

Ride Delaware ?
11-14-2015, 09:23 AM
Great opportunity to make snow today and a couple other opportunities at night this week before a shot of sustained cold air settles in next Sunday. Hopefully Shady can update us on how production went. I still think a Nov. 21 opening is at less than 50%, but it's got a much better shot than just 3 days ago...

pinnoke
11-14-2015, 02:09 PM
My GUESS for opening is Thanksgiving Day, based on the return of favorable-looking snowmaking temps by next weekend.

HowieT2
11-14-2015, 05:33 PM
Any pics of last nights snow? Anyone, anyone.

wolftracks56
11-15-2015, 05:17 AM
More sno fell in oct but it's cold and dry today Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

wolftracks56
11-15-2015, 05:22 AM
260


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winjr
11-15-2015, 07:29 AM
About 5" fell at the Summits. Good snowmaking production. Our forecast sees a possible short window Monday night but that is it until the weekend so it is very unlikely we will get open next weekend. But it does look like it begins to turn colder Saturday so Thanksgiving may be the day.

We did have a water pipe break last night at ME so that will get welded this week and we have an air leak on pipe on Racer's Edge so that will get welded this week as well. Normal early season happenings. At least the warm air makes these repairs easier.

The new guns are working well so if we get a few days in a row of good cold temps we can make some real progress.

southvillager
11-15-2015, 08:45 AM
Any pics of last nights snow? Anyone, anyone.

Took this Sunday 8AM.

Benski
11-15-2015, 09:54 AM
260


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Are you a snow maker? Welcome to the board.

HowieT2
11-15-2015, 10:09 AM
Took this Sunday 8AM.

Looks like winter. Thanks.

Ride Delaware ?
11-15-2015, 01:08 PM
I wouldn't mind a Thanksgiving opening. I wonder how much of waiting goes into uploading/downloading. If the temps look more conducive for a t2b opening, a T-Day opening wouldn't be so bad to wait. If the opening has the same logistics on the 21st as it would on the 26th, then maybe they don't wait.

shadyjay
11-15-2015, 06:05 PM
260


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That guy on the right is one awesome snowmaker ;-)

Ride Delaware ?
11-16-2015, 05:03 PM
I'm guessing the guns will be on tonight and tomorrow night? Looks like temps are already decent at elevation?

Ride Delaware ?
11-16-2015, 06:20 PM
Looks like Stowe was able to go around the clock up top today. If the temps are accurate on the website, I think SB had a good shot at that too. Should be some good production tonight with temps in the low 20s at the base.

sglatham
11-16-2015, 07:30 PM
Win, Shady, somebody! Any snowmaking update? Seems cold has hung around a bit longer than forecasted?

shadyjay
11-16-2015, 08:14 PM
Win, Shady, somebody! Any snowmaking update? Seems cold has hung around a bit longer than forecasted?

We were able to make some good snow at Lincoln Peak from Friday night through Saturday night, with the day crew shutting down on Sunday. It was too warm Sunday night to make so we got called off. Guessing some repairs were the target today before fire-up. I'm not scheduled in again til later in the week, so decided to spend some time in the flatlands, seeing family and such. Hopefully we'll be able to push our way down Downspout soon and get to HG at least, if not further!

Ride Delaware ?
11-16-2015, 08:31 PM
Thanks for the update shady. I'm assuming they will get below Allyn's tonight...

Benski
11-16-2015, 08:41 PM
We were able to make some good snow at Lincoln Peak from Friday night through Saturday night, with the day crew shutting down on Sunday. It was too warm Sunday night to make so we got called off. Guessing some repairs were the target today before fire-up. I'm not scheduled in again til later in the week, so decided to spend some time in the flatlands, seeing family and such. Hopefully we'll be able to push our way down Downspout soon and get to HG at least, if not further!

Sound like they could open!!

Hawk
11-17-2015, 07:24 AM
Historically it takes them up to a week of cold temps day and night to get open. They do not like to open with partial coverage. They like to have wall to wall so I would bet that a day or two here and there like we have had will not get them open. I will be up this weekend and will report back. Based on the two week weather I will bet that we will not see opening until after Thanksgiving.

That said, Killington and Sunday River are on line and maybe others. I am skiing somewhere this weekend.

gostan
11-17-2015, 07:29 AM
November 17, 2012. What a difference 3 years makes.

winjr
11-17-2015, 07:34 AM
Historically isn't relevant with the new guns. We can move a lot faster now. Last night we ran all the way down Upper Jester and Downspout to Heaven's Gate and also had 12 guns on Upper Grinder. 92 guns and towers maxing water.
However, looking at the forecast this morning we will have to be off today and tonight looks marginal and then it is warming up again Weds-Fri. Weekend is very unlikely unless the forecast is wrong. Hopefully we keep what we have so another couple of days with good temps could make for a nice Thanksgiving.

Hawk
11-17-2015, 08:05 AM
I was hoping you would say that. I only know what I saw in the past. If the improvements impact the output like you are saying and the temps cooperate then we should be skiing. I hope so because I don't really want to spend the extra money to ski. I just want to ski! Good luck

Ride Delaware ?
11-17-2015, 09:08 AM
I think we are going to see Sugarbush open on Thanksgiving with some downloading. Looks like temps really start to cooperate after Sunday, but with the capacity maxed last night, and forecasted lows at the base that week around 23/24, I am betting they will concentrate on upper jester and grinder before jumping the guns down low with more marginal conditions. If the temps drop though, things could change.

winjr
11-17-2015, 09:33 AM
A couple of the Mountain team just skied Jester and Downspout to Heaven's gate. A lot was in very good shape with good depth on the majority of the trails but not enough everywhere all the way to open and make it enjoyable. A good 24 hours of low 20's would likely make it work, but we don't see that before the weekend. Some rain in the forecast too. We may have a short window again tonight but that is not certain right now. The weekend does look like we have another longer window and hopefully next week will stay cooler. At this point I will say that Thanksgiving is the probable opening but we will have a better call Sunday night.

If you are around come to the Big Kicker at Lareau/Flatbread on Saturday evening.

Think cold and snow!

Ride Delaware ?
11-17-2015, 11:12 AM
Thanks for the updates. Sounds promising for Thanksgiving!!! Works for me.

sglatham
11-17-2015, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the update(s) Win. Great to hear of the capacity increase from the new guns. Jester to downspout down to HG, and a dozen on grinder, is a lot different from what I recall a few years ago! Lets hope this weekends cold is deep and long. And maybe a storm for good measure??

Ride Delaware ?
11-17-2015, 12:48 PM
I'm wondering if the plan is to put another 24 hours on upper Jester then move those to upper Grinder while keeping the guns on Downspout down to HG. Downspout to HG missed out on that first cold stretch that Jester got love, so it probably needs some more time, especially with the steepness and width.

Open with Jester and grinder, then move the guns downhill to get us into the base when the cold really hits next week?

Dblshot
11-17-2015, 01:21 PM
I'm wondering if the plan is to put another 24 hours on upper Jester then move those to upper Grinder while keeping the guns on Downspout down to HG. Downspout to HG missed out on that first cold stretch that Jester got love, so it probably needs some more time, especially with the steepness and width.

Open with Jester and grinder, then move the guns downhill to get us into the base when the cold really hits next week?

That is generally the plan because the temps are up high. Length of time on jester will depend on how warm and amount of r*in but also what the snowmaking philosophy is this year. It has been to pound a trail for a week and move everything off to pound the next one. Maybe with more towers they will dust and run when the season gets cranked up.

After getting Lower Downspout- Gondolier to Bravo so no downloading, it is Lower Grinder then fill in Lower Jester for a blue route. Then Murphy's and Birdland. If temps are bad, up to Ripcord.

First Time, Pushover EZ Rider go as soon as temps allow while blowing the main mountain. Gotta get the greens in.

As much as Snowball Spring Fling would great to have earlier and use the new lift I think the way it works the best to start spreading the load out from Bravo. Those take while especially Snowball.

Praying for cold and snow. You never know when something might pop up.....

Benski
11-17-2015, 01:27 PM
What about lower jester to gondolier. Last year they hit middle grinder and lower jester at the same time and opened them in only 3 days so I think it is possible. It would be a much better offering.

Ride Delaware ?
11-17-2015, 01:49 PM
What about lower jester to gondolier. Last year they hit middle grinder and lower jester at the same time and opened them in only 3 days so I think it is possible. It would be a much better offering.
They did that because of the delayed opening with HG. They knew they wouldn't have HG for the season opening, so they blew that to get two runs open down low. When HG ran, they already had Jester and OG good to go up top. With limited snowmaking thus far this season, I have to imagine they will blow that after they finish downspout to lower jester. The normal opening run allows for more lower level skiers and riders to enjoy than lower grinder would.

Dblshot
11-17-2015, 01:54 PM
I forgot Domino to get to Lower Grinder. I didn't know there was a Middle Grinder, I call everything from the flats to Gondolier Lower Grinder. I think we are saying the same thing. just need the temps.

Benski
11-17-2015, 02:04 PM
They did that because of the delayed opening with HG. They knew they wouldn't have HG for the season opening, so they blew that to get two runs open down low. When HG ran, they already had Jester and OG good to go up top. With limited snowmaking thus far this season, I have to imagine they will blow that after they finish downspout to lower jester. The normal opening run allows for more lower level skiers and riders to enjoy than lower grinder would.

The point is they can make this change without postponing opening top to bottom and lower jester is a lot better than downspout>lower downspout

Ride Delaware ?
11-17-2015, 02:49 PM
The point is they can make this change without postponing opening top to bottom and lower jester is a lot better than downspout>lower downspout
I would agree, but domino chute/jester isn't set up well to handle the traffic considering the narrow width of those trails.

Furthermore, the normal setup doesn't require them to go to the top in order for them to get out at the end of the day. If OG is open, then you must ride up unless Grinder flats is open. Since Grinder flats hardly gets any snowmaking love, and likely won't be open on natural by opening day, it just makes more sense to keep lower downspout/jester as the lower mountain run.

Hawk
11-17-2015, 03:55 PM
I think you guys are counting your snow before its hatched. ;-) Lots of warm and wet coming. I will see what they have first hand this weekend and post a report.

Ride Delaware ?
11-17-2015, 04:30 PM
I think you guys are counting your snow before its hatched. ;-) Lots of warm and wet coming. I will see what they have first hand this weekend and post a report.
I wouldn't say two days is lots of warm, but there's plenty of wet coming...

cdskier
11-17-2015, 06:02 PM
As much as Snowball Spring Fling would great to have earlier and use the new lift I think the way it works the best to start spreading the load out from Bravo. Those take while especially Snowball.


The way it worked in the past isn't necessarily the way things will be done now. It was mentioned at some point here recently that the plan is to open Snowball/Spring Fling as early as possible this year. With the snow-making pipe upgrades there last year, they can actually cover these trails very quickly. I still think Lower Downspout to Gondolier should be first on the lower mountain as it makes more sense logistically and I would think requires less snow to open, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Snowball/Spring Fling come online second on the lower half of the mountain.

cdskier
11-17-2015, 06:03 PM
I wouldn't say two days is lots of warm, but there's plenty of wet coming...

They officially announced they don't plan to open this weekend and are now shooting for Thanksgiving. Let's see if the weather cooperates for that, but I won't be able to make it up until probably the 2nd week in December now.

gostan
11-17-2015, 06:09 PM
I think you guys are counting your snow before its hatched. ;-) Lots of warm and wet coming. I will see what they have first hand this weekend and post a report. I will be up this weekend. I have a bunch of things to do. But I do not expect to be skiing. "I heard it through the Grapevine" that the mountain will not be open until Thanksgiving Day. Stowe has already postponed its opening from this weekend until Wednesday, November 25th.

Benski
11-17-2015, 06:15 PM
I would agree, but domino chute/jester isn't set up well to handle the traffic considering the narrow width of those trails.

Furthermore, the normal setup doesn't require them to go to the top in order for them to get out at the end of the day. If OG is open, then you must ride up unless Grinder flats is open. Since Grinder flats hardly gets any snowmaking love, and likely won't be open on natural by opening day, it just makes more sense to keep lower downspout/jester as the lower mountain run.

lower downspout is just as narrow and the worse bottleneck is downspout so the anything that gets people around downspout would be positive for crowds. Good point about organ grinder though.

shadyjay
11-17-2015, 06:57 PM
There is no "Middle Grinder". There is a "Middle Jester", though its not on the trail maps/online. It is kinda deceiving when the trail report early on says Downspout, Lower Downspout, and Lower Jester is open. Generally, if Domino Chute is open, then all of Lower Jester will be open. Lower Jester "should" be shown as "partially open" on the trail reports when it is early on and is the only route down.

Now last year, we were able to open Domino Chute/Middle Jester AND Lower OG for opening day, because of HG not being ready. It was also a LOT colder this time last year.

I'd guess once we get down to HG covered, the next step will either be to get to the base via Lower DS/Lower Jester/Coffee Run OR go to Snowball/Spring Fling (not VHT). The latter will allow the new lift to open. All depends on temps and whether we're ready to pull the gear off Jester to focus on the lower route. SB/Fling is all towers, so its ready to go as is.

Hawk
11-18-2015, 10:34 AM
I realize that they are saying that they upgraded and have new equipment that should perhaps make things better. I just would not get my hopes up that it will changes things by leaps and bounds. With the current weather and the forecast it looks like a thanksgiving opening with just jester and downspout with down loading is what we will have. Either way I am skiing this weekend and next. I can't stand not being on snow. Hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

HowieT2
11-18-2015, 10:48 AM
I realize that they are saying that they upgraded and have new equipment that should perhaps make things better. I just would not get my hopes up that it will changes things by leaps and bounds. With the current weather and the forecast it looks like a thanksgiving opening with just jester and downspout with down loading is what we will have. Either way I am skiing this weekend and next. I can't stand not being on snow. Hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

Agreed. Its all about the weather, but temps look ok starting saturday night. Not great, but ok.

Ride Delaware ?
11-18-2015, 10:49 AM
While it looks like "colder" temps will arrive Friday night, it looks like the first good shot at snowmaking will be sometime Saturday night into Sunday morning. While it's a huge benefit to be able to run all of Jester and Downspout from Allyn's down, I still think the most likely scenario will be that they move the guns from Jester sometime Monday/Tuesday over to OG and get both of those trails going for Thanksgiving with downloading. I wouldn't be surprised if they start pushing toward the base down below HG (couple guns down to the Castlerock cutoff), but with temps at 24/25 most nights in the base, I have to imagine they will use the optimal temps up top and leave the bottom for another couple days until we see lows around 20.

gostan
11-18-2015, 11:50 AM
I realize that they are saying that they upgraded and have new equipment that should perhaps make things better. I just would not get my hopes up that it will changes things by leaps and bounds. With the current weather and the forecast it looks like a thanksgiving opening with just jester and downspout with down loading is what we will have. Either way I am skiing this weekend and next. I can't stand not being on snow. Hoping to be pleasantly surprised. Hawk, enjoy the skiing @ the River.

Hawk
11-18-2015, 12:22 PM
Hawk, enjoy the skiing @ the River.

I will be in VT so probably Killington.

gostan
11-18-2015, 02:01 PM
The Big K it is.


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Hawk
11-18-2015, 05:52 PM
When is Tree Skier giving up on the Sea Side renovations and heading north????

gostan
11-19-2015, 06:27 AM
When is Tree Skier giving up on the Sea Side renovations and heading north????I imagine that he will be up sometime over Thanksgiving weekend, with a stop at the River this upcoming weekend.

winjr
11-19-2015, 07:25 AM
Beginning late Friday the higher elevation temperatures look very good for a few days but base area looks marginal now. We should be open on Thanksgiving but maybe with downloading. Whenever we have the window we will make a run to the bottom. We are all set up for that and already began Tuesday night when their was an inversion.

Benski
11-19-2015, 12:59 PM
Can we get the Heavens Gate back online so we can see some snowmaking.

cmoore
11-20-2015, 08:29 AM
The weather has been bad. Win and crew have been good, I'd say great. See Organgrinder? Added a better pic. And least we not forget ME.

Ride Delaware ?
11-20-2015, 08:40 AM
That looks pretty skiable. Should be able to get to HG with this next little cold spurt...

Ride Delaware ?
11-20-2015, 09:21 AM
Looks like more than 12 guns were going on OG from here...

Ride Delaware ?
11-20-2015, 09:50 AM
I don't know how accurate the thermometers are on the website (either LP or ME is broken/stuck), but if it really is 29 at the top, guns will likely be coming on and working downward sometime in the next couple hours. I think temps are supposed to drop throughout the day...

cmoore
11-20-2015, 11:24 AM
There is data for two elevations, 500 & 1212 meters (1641 & 3977 feet). The freezing level is the freezing level and it is likely late today before snow making could resume even on top.

http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Lincoln-Peak-Vermont/forecasts/500

HowieT2
11-20-2015, 12:25 PM
There is data for two elevations, 500 & 1212 meters (1641 & 3977 feet). The freezing level is the freezing level and it is likely late today before snow making could resume even on top.

http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Lincoln-Peak-Vermont/forecasts/500

what's the wet bulb?

forecast has trended warmer for next week. not good (although I'm stuck at the in laws for the holiday anyway so no ski for me).

Ride Delaware ?
11-20-2015, 12:51 PM
There is data for two elevations, 500 & 1212 meters (1641 & 3977 feet). The freezing level is the freezing level and it is likely late today before snow making could resume even on top.

http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Lincoln-Peak-Vermont/forecasts/500

I don't know how that translates to Sugarbush's thermometers, which currently have the temps at 29 at the peak and 37 at Allyn's, but there will be snowmaking today regardless. Just depends on how early they start. Should still be cold enough to finish Jester/Grinder and then work down Downspout.

sglatham
11-20-2015, 02:38 PM
Burlington NWS site has good info under "Recreation Forecast". One is the forecast for the high summits of NY and VT. Also, under current Current Observations is Mount Mansfield. Note that sometimes this shows N/A - just click on it and you will get the temp history which usually has recent reading.

Last reading was 32 at 2:05. The temps on Sugarbush site at 2:30 were 32 and 29 for Lincoln and Ellen.

Forecast is for lows tonight in mid 20's, which is consistent with the Mountain Forecast from the link on prior emails.

Wet bulb is critically missing. This is a relatively dry airmass so wet bulb should work in snow makers favor. So I would expect a window tonight up top to make snow.

cmoore
11-20-2015, 03:25 PM
http://www.weather.gov/btv/mountain

Click on the little mountain icon just above where is says Warren and you'll see the forecast for ME pop up.
Sad to say this indicates warmer temps (at elevation) than desired for Sat/Sat night. Hope it is wrong.

Dblshot
11-20-2015, 04:25 PM
There is data for two elevations, 500 & 1212 meters (1641 & 3977 feet). The freezing level is the freezing level and it is likely late today before snow making could resume even on top.

http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Lincoln-Peak-Vermont/forecasts/500

I like this one but find that the potential snow totals are a bit wacky 4+ days out.

winjr
11-20-2015, 05:07 PM
Fairly high humidity right now so wet bulb is close to the ambient. The guns will be coming on soon starting at the top. What we made up high held up pretty well.

Will get HG cam turned on.

Ride Delaware ?
11-20-2015, 09:42 PM
Temp is currently 24 at the peak and 31 at Allyn's. Production should be ramping up on Jester and OG. Hopefully they get some good work done.

Benski
11-20-2015, 11:29 PM
They are not claiming lower downspout to gondolier and organgrinder will be open by thanksgiving.

Ride Delaware ?
11-20-2015, 11:32 PM
They used the word "potentially" on the website. I'm assuming at least Jester/Grinder with lows after this next little warmup around 27. We will know by Tuesday whether they can make it to the base or not.

cmoore
11-21-2015, 08:27 AM
they're making it down low. How low?

Ride Delaware ?
11-21-2015, 08:49 AM
Win said they can run jester from the top to HG plus 12 guns on OG before they max capacity. I can't see if any guns are going on OG, but if it's zero, I've got to imagine that they are pushing below HG as we speak.

winjr
11-21-2015, 10:22 AM
Got 92 on last night but mud down came in late. The top of Jester to Allyn's is in good shape. From there down needs more time. Warming up now so we will be off this afternoon until sometime tomorrow but then it looks good for Heaven's Gate up until Wednesday, so we should be good to go with downloading but I doubt top to bottom unless forecast changes.

WWF-VT
11-21-2015, 03:38 PM
Guns were on Downspout to the HG chair when I walked up at 2:30 PM today.

Ride Delaware ?
11-22-2015, 10:51 AM
Temps have trended downwards for the next 48 hours. I wouldn't count out a t2b opening just yet...

HowieT2
11-22-2015, 12:09 PM
This weather blows.

angler
11-22-2015, 04:55 PM
This weather blows.

+1, and to add insult to injury 50 on Thursday and Friday with the 10 day forecast showing zip on the snow candy front :(

wolftracks56
11-23-2015, 04:00 AM
Zip on snow means cold dry air for snowmaking which we will need this year


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Ride Delaware ?
11-23-2015, 07:04 AM
I'm eagerly awaiting an update on how much they got down last night. This cold shot might get us t2b for Thursday.

Hawk
11-23-2015, 08:31 AM
So I did a little walk and my opinion is that they have enough snow as of yesterday after the rain to open on Jester/Downspout. Actually they could have skied yesterday. This is based on seeing DS from Allyns down to the lift. Temps were not really there at all down to the bottom so what they do on the lower mtn will be from scratch. I did not get up to upper OG but it looked to be in OK shape. Maybe a little thin in areas. I hope the cold preserves enough for Thursday. It should be fine.

Dblshot
11-23-2015, 09:27 AM
I don't see them coming to the bottom during this window, guns would be running at Bravo by now. Stay up top and pound Jester Downspout and get OG open for Thursday. Get through the warm up with the upper mountain in good shape then go to the bottom next weekend. I would rather not download but don't risk the upper mountain snowpack for T2B. Can we get the mini bear snowmobile with trailer to run from Allyn's to the top of Bravo? :D

Benski
11-23-2015, 11:59 AM
According to someone on alpine zone a rock got into the mt Ellen water intake and nocked out the water pump for 1-2 weeks for repairs. Hope it's false.

Ride Delaware ?
11-23-2015, 12:54 PM
The forecast after this warm up is trending colder, so that might be an appropriate time to go t2b. I'm sure they have some guns already running below HG anyway.

sglatham
11-23-2015, 03:22 PM
Well, here you have it, straight from SB snow report:

Status update for Mon, Nov 23

Currently, we're planning to start spinning lifts for skiing and riding on Thanksgiving Day. Trails include Upper Jester, Organgrinder and Downspout, served by Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate Lifts. Lifts will open at 9 AM, with the last ride up on Heaven's Gate at 3:15 PM. Skiers/riders should plan to download on Super Bravo due to a lack of snow at the lower part of the mountain. At this time, terrain is appropriate for intermediate and expert skiers/riders only.

Ride Delaware ?
11-23-2015, 03:45 PM
They were running only Jester/Downspout to HG, then 12 guns on OG, so I'm guessing they moved that Jester capacity to OG to get a second route. Maybe pushed some guns below HG. They should be able to get us to the base by the beginning of next week.

blakeslee_a
11-23-2015, 05:50 PM
According to someone on alpine zone a rock got into the mt Ellen water intake and nocked out the water pump for 1-2 weeks for repairs. Hope it's false.

Not false. Roommate is a snowmaker at ellen, CB2 got blown up, whole pump house flooded. They can only make snow on inverness until its fixed.

EDIT: First post on here. Just found the forum recently after skiing Killington for many years. Dont mean to jump into the convo without introducing myself!
I work for the valet company who operates valet parking at Killington as well as Sugarbush. I work full time at sugarbush as this locations manager, as well as some trips to Killington as I oversee that operation as well.

Ride Delaware ?
11-23-2015, 06:02 PM
Not false. Roommate is a snowmaker at ellen, CB2 got blown up, whole pump house flooded. They can only make snow on inverness until its fixed.

EDIT: First post on here. Just found the forum recently after skiing Killington for many years. Dont mean to jump into the convo without introducing myself!
I work for the valet company who operates valet parking at Killington as well as Sugarbush. I work full time at sugarbush as this locations manager, as well as some trips to Killington as I oversee that operation as well.
I'm guessing because they have a smaller pump that can focus on Inverness? They can push that elsewhere when Inverness is done, but Inverness takes a lot of snow...

blakeslee_a
11-23-2015, 06:27 PM
I'm guessing because they have a smaller pump that can focus on Inverness? They can push that elsewhere when Inverness is done, but Inverness takes a lot of snow...

Not really sure. It's his first year here he didn't really give an explanation. He worked at Saddleback last year and came down here when they closed. I imagine that yes they have another pump for that side.

Ride Delaware ?
11-23-2015, 06:41 PM
It's a 2k gpm system for the whole mountain, so maybe the larger one blew, but they should be able to interchange once Inverness has snow.

blakeslee_a
11-23-2015, 07:26 PM
It's a 2k gpm system for the whole mountain, so maybe the larger one blew, but they should be able to interchange once Inverness has snow.

he just got home. said the situation on the pump isn't good... they made snow on inverness but they can only blow on the lower part for now.

cdskier
11-23-2015, 07:36 PM
Hopefully they can get it fixed/replaced quickly, although at least it is at ME which doesn't open for another month. Sucks for GMVS though plus I'm sure they'd love to be making snow whenever possible to get as much ready at ME as they can before they open it.

HowieT2
11-23-2015, 07:38 PM
Not really sure. It's his first year here he didn't really give an explanation. He worked at Saddleback last year and came down here when they closed. I imagine that yes they have another pump for that side.

Welcome aboard. We require snow reports and pics.

Ride Delaware ?
11-23-2015, 07:44 PM
It's a shame it's not a compressor. They could rent one of those and plug it in pretty easily...

jimmck
11-24-2015, 07:52 AM
Along with a dusting of natural...http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/24/f656a344809d2000b0b1298756e453f4.jpg

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winjr
11-24-2015, 07:56 AM
It was the manifold pipe in the ME compressor room and is almost fixed - maybe
today. For Inverness we can draw right out of pond and not have to flow water
through the manifold pipe. That allowed us to run 40-45 guns producing around 800 GPM.

The other night we also had a hose on a pump cooler in the Mad River pump house break
and spray water on the electrical equipment and that shut us down for some hours and then limited
production for some additional hours. All is good now but it caused us to have to keep the focus
on the upper mountain. GMP threw in two half-curtailable periods this week. In the past this would have
been a real bummer, but with the low energy guns we could run one compressor
at each mountain and keep most of our snowmaking going.

By Thursday the snow quality on Upper Jester, Upper Organgrinder
and Downspout should be very nice with these cold temps. We are starting to come down
today but time will run out before it warms up tomorrow.

Looks like cold weather returns on Saturday and then stays around longer so by
next weekend we can be t2b and have more terrain. Would love to be skiing off VH
Chair ASAP.

Hawk
11-24-2015, 08:00 AM
They are blowing at the bottom of the mountain as we speak. Looks cold.
Man it is really amazing to see how much snow making is going on over at Sunday River. They are saying 20 trails for the weekend with top to bottom on 3 mountains. We can't get top to bottom on one. Oh well. It is what it is. We will be there for the opening.

Ride Delaware ?
11-24-2015, 08:28 AM
SR puts on a good show, but their t2b is also about 900 feet less than ours. That being said, they also have twice the capacity at 8k gpm. I know it's small consolation, but SB has made some great investments, and things are much better than just a couple years ago. I'm happy with the progress. I'm just glad we will be on the snow this weekend.

Hawk
11-24-2015, 09:02 AM
Their bottom elevation is almost 1,000 feet lower than ours but they still are blowing snow in multiple locations at the same time and are skiing top to bottom right now.

At this point of the year the Cliché's will start rolling out:
- Sugarbush is not known for it's snow making. It's about the natural snow here.
- We are not Sunday River or Killington - and we like it like that.
- Our capacity is better this year we have invested in the system.
- If you want snow making then go some there else.
and best of all and my personal favorite....
- Don't worry, once it snows we will not talk about this again.

Fair enough. But all I ask is that we make the system big and strong enough to at least blow one run top to bottom. Based on my observations this year so far, all I can see is that we have become more efficient which allows us to operate more cost effective. They can operate more guns but it is not that great increase from before in my opinion. Lets face it. The upgrades were done to save money for the most part. Well I guess you could say that they make the system more reliable also. It just arrears to me that they overall production or Volume has not come up to a point to cover the trails we need all at once or faster. Thursday will be very telling.



SR puts on a good show, but their t2b is also about 900 feet less than ours. That being said, they also have twice the capacity at 8k gpm. I know it's small consolation, but SB has made some great investments, and things are much better than just a couple years ago. I'm happy with the progress. I'm just glad we will be on the snow this weekend.

Benski
11-24-2015, 09:26 AM
You guys also need to accept that sugarbush can only use about 2/3 capacity for early season since the other third is at my Ellen and therefore contributes nothing the first month of the season. It a big disadvantage.

Ride Delaware ?
11-24-2015, 09:44 AM
Ben, the systems are separate. 4k at LP and 2K at ME. When we say they are running full capacity, we are referring to full capacity at LP. I'm sure ME is at full capacity when they don't have a mechanical issue as well. We will see that huge trail bump when they open. It's not like it's lost capacity.

Also Hawk, not to nitpick, but SR isn't blowing to the bottom of White Cap (795'), so the real difference between Barker/Locke (1,110') and LP (1,575') is only about 500', and Aurora (1,660') is about 100' higher than LP.

I understand your frustration, and the system is what it is. They have made continual improvements that save money and allow for more guns to run (first time ever running Jester to HG plus 12 guns on OG). They are "saving money," but they are still maxing capacity, so I don't really know how much they are saving if they are still putting out the same amount of product. I'm sure they are always looking at ways to improve and I'm sure they would love to be able to run top to bottom at some point in the future. I understand the desire to do it in small increments without massive capital outlay even if we wish they would just take out a credit line and knock it out in one sitting.

Benski
11-24-2015, 10:52 AM
That's what I ment ride Delaware. 1/3 of there capacity can only be used for mt Ellen so it does nothing for the first month of the season.

Ride Delaware ?
11-24-2015, 10:59 AM
That's what I ment ride Delaware. 1/3 of there capacity can only be used for mt Ellen so it does nothing for the first month of the season.
We were on the same page thinking about it differently.

southvillager
11-24-2015, 11:07 AM
Stowe opens Wednesday with top to bottom, all groomed, and they are opening Spruce on Thursday to enable skiing for all abilities. Killington is open already. Mt Snow opens with no downloading on Thursday. Okemo opened today with 3 lifts.

Ride Delaware ?
11-24-2015, 11:13 AM
Guns are still running at the base as we type. If they can blow all day today (big if) and keep it through tonight, there may be an outside chance at t2b. They may leave it in whales on Thurs/Fri for the warmup and then groom it out Saturday if it's enough.

Dblshot
11-24-2015, 12:26 PM
Not the first time running Jester Downspout to HG and guns on OG. With the rental compressors and SR-7 this was done a lot years ago. First time maybe for the more efficient guns, now they max out on water. There is space for one more pump at the pond and 5 more at CB-1 so maybe capacity can increase in the next few years.

Ride Delaware ?
11-24-2015, 12:30 PM
That would be awesome. I was referring to the max with the current on hill system. I didn't take into effect rented compressors...

Hawk
11-24-2015, 02:26 PM
I hear what you are saying and I realize they are improving things at a measured pace. I just wish they would bite the bullet and install a system that can at least handle blowing enough snow to complete at least one Top to Bottom run. The only thing that separates us from being a world class resort is the snow making. It is not that apparent now but wait till we have a lean year. Most of you on this board have not experienced this but I have.


Ben, the systems are separate. 4k at LP and 2K at ME. When we say they are running full capacity, we are referring to full capacity at LP. I'm sure ME is at full capacity when they don't have a mechanical issue as well. We will see that huge trail bump when they open. It's not like it's lost capacity.

Also Hawk, not to nitpick, but SR isn't blowing to the bottom of White Cap (795'), so the real difference between Barker/Locke (1,110') and LP (1,575') is only about 500', and Aurora (1,660') is about 100' higher than LP.

I understand your frustration, and the system is what it is. They have made continual improvements that save money and allow for more guns to run (first time ever running Jester to HG plus 12 guns on OG). They are "saving money," but they are still maxing capacity, so I don't really know how much they are saving if they are still putting out the same amount of product. I'm sure they are always looking at ways to improve and I'm sure they would love to be able to run top to bottom at some point in the future. I understand the desire to do it in small increments without massive capital outlay even if we wish they would just take out a credit line and knock it out in one sitting.

HowieT2
11-24-2015, 04:33 PM
I hear what you are saying and I realize they are improving things at a measured pace. I just wish they would bite the bullet and install a system that can at least handle blowing enough snow to complete at least one Top to Bottom run. The only thing that separates us from being a world class resort is the snow making. It is not that apparent now but wait till we have a lean year. Most of you on this board have not experienced this but I have.

Ixnay on the lean earya.

seriously, we've been below average in snowfall for the last 4-5 seasons. we are due for a big one. F the Nino! due, I tell ya!

Ride Delaware ?
11-24-2015, 04:48 PM
I hear what you are saying and I realize they are improving things at a measured pace. I just wish they would bite the bullet and install a system that can at least handle blowing enough snow to complete at least one Top to Bottom run. The only thing that separates us from being a world class resort is the snow making. It is not that apparent now but wait till we have a lean year. Most of you on this board have not experienced this but I have.
I'm sure they are working toward this goal. I'm just happy we are opening.

shadyjay
11-24-2015, 06:47 PM
Believe me, we have been doing everything we can. It has been the "perfect storm" of problems cropping up in the past couple weeks, between CB2, Mad River, the weather, thaw/freezes, etc. But we did light up Gondolier and the few towers we have on Lower Jester and Gondolier. Still waiting on some new ground guns to get rest of Lower Downspout/Lower Jester on. I believe the groomers headed up today to start pushing out Jester and OG and to be able to get the gear we have on Jester off so we can push to the bottom for the next cold snap.

Here's what it looked like when I left work this morning, in the base:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/22919000969/in/album-72157660257834278/

djd66
11-24-2015, 07:31 PM
Believe me, we have been doing everything we can. It has been the "perfect storm" of problems cropping up in the past couple weeks, between CB2, Mad River, the weather, thaw/freezes, etc. But we did light up Gondolier and the few towers we have on Lower Jester and Gondolier. Still waiting on some new ground guns to get rest of Lower Downspout/Lower Jester on. I believe the groomers headed up today to start pushing out Jester and OG and to be able to get the gear we have on Jester off so we can push to the bottom for the next cold snap.

Here's what it looked like when I left work this morning, in the base:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/22919000969/in/album-72157660257834278/


We believe Shady,... its still November and it has been warm as hell all month. Not your fault or Sugarbush's fault that mother nature is giving us a warm month. I hope you don't let "some" of the posters on this board get to you. Thank you to you and your team for all your hard work.

cdskier
11-24-2015, 09:49 PM
We believe Shady,... its still November and it has been warm as hell all month. Not your fault or Sugarbush's fault that mother nature is giving us a warm month. I hope you don't let "some" of the posters on this board get to you. Thank you to you and your team for all your hard work.

Agreed! I'm sure the Snowmakers are doing a great job.

Now what the heck is CB1, CB2, etc? Just guessing I would come up with Catch Basin...but that's purely a guess.

Ride Delaware ?
11-24-2015, 10:54 PM
Thanks for the update and the pics Shady. Glad to hear everything is going as well as possible.

Benski
11-24-2015, 11:28 PM
CB is short for compressor building. CB1 I believe is the building between lots d and f. Cb2 is the building tooled into the woods between The gmvs building and strait shot.

cdskier
11-25-2015, 01:05 AM
CB is short for compressor building. CB1 I believe is the building between lots d and f. Cb2 is the building tooled into the woods between The gmvs building and strait shot.

Ahh...that makes a lot more sense!

Hawk
11-25-2015, 07:24 AM
Shady, no one is questioning the efforts of the snowmaking team. It is funny how some people flip this to an attack on you guys. As a former snow maker I fully understand what the job entails and it is hard work. The cold you guys endure, the late night hours, always being wet and cold, dealing with broken equipment, frozen hoses, on and on. You guys deal with the hand you are dealt. My comments are a wish. One that is based off seeing the real value of a properly sized system. That is all. I guess if they experienced what a mountain can do with the right equipment then they would understand my perspective. Carry on Shady. Keep kicking A$$!



Believe me, we have been doing everything we can. It has been the "perfect storm" of problems cropping up in the past couple weeks, between CB2, Mad River, the weather, thaw/freezes, etc. But we did light up Gondolier and the few towers we have on Lower Jester and Gondolier. Still waiting on some new ground guns to get rest of Lower Downspout/Lower Jester on. I believe the groomers headed up today to start pushing out Jester and OG and to be able to get the gear we have on Jester off so we can push to the bottom for the next cold snap.

Here's what it looked like when I left work this morning, in the base:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/22919000969/in/album-72157660257834278/

Dblshot
11-25-2015, 08:24 AM
Shady- thx for the update. Keep up the good work, you guys work hard.

I'm surprised there is not enough equipment to have lower downspout, jester set up ready to fire up. Having to strip upper jester to bring guns and hoses down doesn't seem very efficient. At least we will be skiing tomorrow.

HowieT2
11-25-2015, 10:23 AM
Shady, no one is questioning the efforts of the snowmaking team. It is funny how some people flip this to an attack on you guys. As a former snow maker I fully understand what the job entails and it is hard work. The cold you guys endure, the late night hours, always being wet and cold, dealing with broken equipment, frozen hoses, on and on. You guys deal with the hand you are dealt. My comments are a wish. One that is based off seeing the real value of a properly sized system. That is all. I guess if they experienced what a mountain can do with the right equipment then they would understand my perspective. Carry on Shady. Keep kicking A$$!

Agreed. Its one thing to have system limitations like the total amount of water. Its another to lose precious snowmaking time because there isnt enough equipment such that it has to be moved manually. That's inefficient and costly when you're trying to make snow in the lower elevations in marginal temperatures typical in November.

I understand that fan guns are expensive, and that after trying them, they decided to go in a different direction. And that may very well be the right call for the system as a whole over the course of the season. But those things put down a shit ton of snow in marginal temperatures and having even just a few in strategic locations on the lower part of mtn, would go a long way to getting top to bottom to start the season.

HowieT2
11-25-2015, 10:24 AM
Shady- thx for the update. Keep up the good work, you guys work hard.

I'm surprised there is not enough equipment to have lower downspout, jester set up ready to fire up. Having to strip upper jester to bring guns and hoses down doesn't seem very efficient. At least we will be skiing tomorrow.

you will. I'm stuck at the in laws. wah wah!

winjr
11-25-2015, 12:18 PM
Shady answered so I won't repeat with one exception to Hawk's comment. These improvements were not just to save money. There were to increase our capacity and that has been done. To get more now we would have to replace a lot of the existing pipe on the mountain with larger diameter pipe. This was done on Snowball/Spring Fling which is why those trails could be skiable in 48-72 hours now with temps in the low 20's. As we replace pipe we will be replacing with larger diameter but it can't be done all at once.

HowieT2
11-25-2015, 01:12 PM
Shady answered so I won't repeat with one exception to Hawk's comment. These improvements were not just to save money. There were to increase our capacity and that has been done. To get more now we would have to replace a lot of the existing pipe on the mountain with larger diameter pipe. This was done on Snowball/Spring Fling which is why those trails could be skiable in 48-72 hours now with temps in the low 20's. As we replace pipe we will be replacing with larger diameter but it can't be done all at once.

I dont understand. Are you saying that if you had wider pipes you could pump more water? but I thought that the system was maxing out on water while only a few trails are making snow at any given time. can't you just divert the water to other trails? I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I was under the impression that the system was limited by the total amount of water you can pump at any given time? I thought, the wider pipes installed only increased the capacity on those trails, but not to the system as a whole. I'm confused.

Ride Delaware ?
11-25-2015, 03:07 PM
I dont understand. Are you saying that if you had wider pipes you could pump more water? but I thought that the system was maxing out on water while only a few trails are making snow at any given time. can't you just divert the water to other trails? I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I was under the impression that the system was limited by the total amount of water you can pump at any given time? I thought, the wider pipes installed only increased the capacity on those trails, but not to the system as a whole. I'm confused.
Howie, I believe you have the gist of it. They are limited on throughput with the old pipe at X diameter. If they have 4k gpm to work with, the old diameter (X) would only be able to put 2k gpm on Spring Fling at any given time. With the new wider pipe (Y), they can now push 4k gpm to guns on Spring Fling, thus producing more snow instead of having to divert 2k gpm to another line.

I don't know which upper mountain lines connect where, but I would imagine that they have the same throughput issue on something like Downspout, so they redirect the water elsewhere instead of being able to pound all of that in a short period. For instance, they can max water and air on Jester/Downspout to HG, but that line can't handle the water needed to run more guns below HG at once, so they use a different line (OG) to use the rest of the water.

Tin Woodsman
11-25-2015, 06:29 PM
I guess I'm kind of surprised that the early season route T2B hasn't been entirely covered by towers. That's probably not possible on many of the narrower areas of Jester, but I'd think it should be a no brainer for everywhere below the S turns above Allyn's Lodge down to the base. the efficiency point is spot on - with snowmaking windows in the early season shorter by definition, it seems silly to have to waste a shift of labor on moving the equipment from place to place. That's less of a concern for some of the secondary/tertiary snowmaking priorities like Lower OG, Racer's Edge or Sleeper Chute, but should be top of the list for the first 2-3 T2B runs that are always in the plan (Jester>Downspout>Gondolier; VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling; Pushover) early on.

Ultimately, I'm sure SB is moving the needle in terms of not just cost and efficiency, but also absolute production. The thing is, I'd argue they are improving only at the same rate their competitors are, so it's just helping them maintain their position - there's been no step change relative to that competition. I'm sure that connecting the two systems would do that, but that's a pretty big check to cut and I believe Win has said it's not happening. If fan guns aren't the answer at SB (strange that they are the solution everywhere to the north and south), then I wonder what the major bottlenecks now are. Is it just water pipe diameter? Additional pumps?

Ride Delaware ?
11-25-2015, 07:58 PM
I'm guessing that added pipe diameter would allow them to push more water which means they could add an extra pump.

winjr
11-26-2015, 06:46 AM
The pipe from the pond is 16 inch diameter but as you get up the hill is varies. When we are on Snowball/Spring Fling we can get close to 4,000 gpm. On upper mountain the pipe is not as wide and we get 2500 gpm. That is where a large pipe would make the difference. With low energy equipment air is no longer the constraint.
Linking the two mountains is conceptually possible but practically not for permitting as well as other reasons.
Fans guns are great but not on most of our terrain and you still have the same total gpm capacity. Fewer fans making more snow per gun but same total gpm.

HowieT2
11-26-2015, 09:46 AM
The pipe from the pond is 16 inch diameter but as you get up the hill is varies. When we are on Snowball/Spring Fling we can get close to 4,000 gpm. On upper mountain the pipe is not as wide and we get 2500 gpm. That is where a large pipe would make the difference. With low energy equipment air is no longer the constraint.
Linking the two mountains is conceptually possible but practically not for permitting as well as other reasons.
Fans guns are great but not on most of our terrain and you still have the same total gpm capacity. Fewer fans making more snow per gun but same total gpm.

Ok. Now I understand. So if the pipe width limitation means you can only blow 2500 gpm on the upper mtn., and the temps aren't sufficient to put the other 1500gpm to use elsewhere, then you're losing a good portion of your capacity. So some fatter pipes would surely help.

Benski
11-26-2015, 10:19 AM
I guess I'm kind of surprised that the early season route T2B hasn't been entirely covered by towers. That's probably not possible on many of the narrower areas of Jester, but I'd think it should be a no brainer for everywhere below the S turns above Allyn's Lodge down to the base. the efficiency point is spot on - with snowmaking windows in the early season shorter by definition, it seems silly to have to waste a shift of labor on moving the equipment from place to place. That's less of a concern for some of the secondary/tertiary snowmaking priorities like Lower OG, Racer's Edge or Sleeper Chute, but should be top of the list for the first 2-3 T2B runs that are always in the plan (Jester>Downspout>Gondolier; VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling; Pushover) early on.

Ultimately, I'm sure SB is moving the needle in terms of not just cost and efficiency, but also absolute production. The thing is, I'd argue they are improving only at the same rate their competitors are, so it's just helping them maintain their position - there's been no step change relative to that competition. I'm sure that connecting the two systems would do that, but that's a pretty big check to cut and I believe Win has said it's not happening. If fan guns aren't the answer at SB (strange that they are the solution everywhere to the north and south), then I wonder what the major bottlenecks now are. Is it just water pipe diameter? Additional pumps?

I believe on lower downspout most of the guns need to be ground guns to avoid spraying trees. In the past they were ably to set up ground guns on a trail a day or two before making snow on a snow trail. I am not sure why they are not doing that now. Probably don't have enough low e gun ground guns and don't want to use the old ones.

shadyjay
11-26-2015, 12:32 PM
Ground guns required on Lower Downspout due to the power lines which run from Heaven's Gate down to the Castlerock Cutoff. Below there, there are 3 towers before reaching top of Gondolier. The rest is all ground gear. Trail is pretty narrow in most places from Castlerock down to Gondo so towers wouldn't work. The new low e ground guns are $5k/piece. You just can't transport them like you could the old air hogs. Snowmaking was shut down yesterday anyway due to temps and to get the hill ready for opening day, allowing the day crew to move/reposition gear for the next push. We'll be back at it Friday night.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!

jwt
11-27-2015, 09:36 AM
Ground guns required on Lower Downspout due to the power lines which run from Heaven's Gate down to the Castlerock Cutoff. Below there, there are 3 towers before reaching top of Gondolier. The rest is all ground gear. Trail is pretty narrow in most places from Castlerock down to Gondo so towers wouldn't work. The new low e ground guns are $5k/piece. You just can't transport them like you could the old air hogs. Snowmaking was shut down yesterday anyway due to temps and to get the hill ready for opening day, allowing the day crew to move/reposition gear for the next push. We'll be back at it Friday night.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!

Can anyone who was actually on-hill give us lurkers a report on how it skied please?

winjr
11-27-2015, 10:46 AM
I am probably biased, but I was pleased with how it skied yesterday. There is very good depth on Upper Jester, Downspout and Upper Organgrinder. As you know from prior posts we prefer to make a depth of around 3" before moving off a trail. Some other mountains take a different approach to get more terrain open. But the depth we have allows for grooming and will also survive the next warm-up. Yesterday Jester and Downspout were groomed. Grinder was not and I thought the upper part skied really well. Down lower because the temps were not as good as higher, there were some ice balls and some funky snow, but that part was groomed out last night and the warm air will soften it up further. Unfortunately, the wind is very strong and swirling and I suspect the wind won't let up until tomorrow am. Bravo and Heave's Gate are on windhold as of 10:30am and probably will remain that way today.

If we do not have temps for snowmaking down lower, we will resume snowmaking on Ripcord at LP. It looks like we will have some windows over the next few days down low starting on Sunday, and we are set up to take advantage of them to get to the bottom before next weekend

jwt
11-27-2015, 12:39 PM
Thanks Mr Smith. We all have some bias , believe it or not, and that report is as good as any. Thx. Can't do anything about the wind - nature isn't going to ever be controlled and it allows us to appreciate conditions when they are good.

Just read a piece in Powder Magazine on how bad snow-making is for the environment? I couldn't finish the piece. Try living without it. When the pendulum swings, it does swing too far. . .

winjr
11-27-2015, 08:24 PM
The anti-jink worked. Just after I posted the wind died down and changed direction just enough to let us open around 11am, and it was great spring skiing in November. Organgrinder was terrific and what made it better today was skiing with my two grandsons. Temps are coming down slowly tonight so tomorrow will be different. Good news is it is not coming down fast so early skiers should keep the trails loose for the later arrivals. Human grooming is sometimes the best and I plan on bring
there at 9am. Will likely turn snowmaking on Ripcord sometime Saturday morning,

I have not read the article about the snowmaking environmental concerns but I believe this has been addressed with us. We can only withdraw from the Mad River Valley when the flow is at a specified level and remember that any water we borrow from the river gets returned. We have also done extensive work to mitigate the impact of storm water and received the Governor's environmental excellence award for getting Rice Brook off the impaired stream list. I think this article is more focused on the West who is a late comer to snowmaking. We are way ahead of the West in Vermont.

winjr
11-28-2015, 10:51 AM
Spring skiing yesterday. Winter today after some rain showers last night. We groomed our Jester and Downspout, but they are firm. Organgrinder was too soft to get a winch on last night, so as my grandson told me "it is skiable but not all that fun". We will winch it tonight, so tomorrow should be "fun". Ripcord is where we are making snow today. Looking at the forecast there are a couple of small windows down low, so we will take every advantage to get to the bottom. We are set up to go. I don't like the forecast for Tuesday and Wednesday where it may be too warm for any snowmaking again. Hopefully, after that it will stay cooler so we can at least have Ripcord and the trails to the bottom added.

JayBird
11-28-2015, 01:13 PM
Heck, every eastern resort is facing the same weather issues.
This forum is the same hackneyed crap year after year.

Invest in your air and water infrastructure.
Year after year it's buildings and other 'stuff'.

That ain't satisfying your local supporters.
That is clearly evident reading these posts.

Hope you get it figured out!
:eek:

SurfBoy
11-28-2015, 07:25 PM
+1, need to spend the money to open with t2b if you want to compete in the majors!

djd66
11-28-2015, 07:59 PM
Yeah, come on Win - you need to build your own nuclear power plant so you can blow snow when its 65 out. Why don't you have 10,000 guns going top to bottom? There are 50 skiers that have been have paid for a seasons pass that want to ski.

SurfBoy
11-28-2015, 10:17 PM
Yeah, come on Win - you need to build your own nuclear power plant so you can blow snow when its 65 out. Why don't you have 10,000 guns going top to bottom? There are 50 skiers that have been have paid for a seasons pass that want to ski.

Is that what all the other mountains did that have t2b? Oh I forgot they actually had 20,000 guns going.

gostan
11-28-2015, 11:04 PM
Just look at how the Boston Red Sox spend $$$ to try to compete in the Majors. Anybody want Sandoval & Ramirez & a bunch of overpaid starting pitchers in exchange for 10.000 snow guns? Baseball teams like ski areas need to be built from the bottom up for the long haul.

i guess i am a homer at heart. You can have the Sunday Rivers of the NE if that is what you prefer. All the snow in Maine would just plain bore me to death. just like the Sox have by finishing last 3 out of the last 4 years.

Ride Delaware ?
11-28-2015, 11:08 PM
Is that what all the other mountains did that have t2b? Oh I forgot they actually had 20,000 guns going.
Most of the early season players have base elevations over the bottom of LP and offer vertical of far less with a t2b opening. Sunday River is just over 1,500 ft and they were "t2b" with "some walking required". Lincoln Peak is 2,400'.

The $$$ dictate the investment strategy. If it were costing SB $ and customers, it might change things, but Win has increased skier visits and revenue every year, so I would say his plan is working pretty well.

I was pretty happy with today regardless. The snow makers were hard at work on Ripcord and I gave them props accordingly.

Guns were turned on at the base tonight around 10 PM. Should have some good production.

Keep at it Mr. Smith. Your game plan has been sustainable, conservative, and has brought SB back from the disaster known as ASC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

wolftracks56
11-29-2015, 04:46 AM
Oh boy


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southvillager
11-29-2015, 09:13 AM
There has been steady improvement over the last several years. New lodges, condos, groomers, pipe, guns, lifts, etc. The mountain should be recognized for making these significant investments. The problem (in my opinion) is that the competition started off in a better position, with Sugarbush being in an infrastructure deficit. So while Sugarbush plays catch-up, the competition keeps moving the goal post.

The new lift is a big improvement, and was sorely needed. This lift will enhance the experience greatly for the typical skier by reducing lines and improving reliability. That said, I hope the resort recognizes that replacing a 60 year old double is nothing to brag about. It is like Sugarbush is replacing a flat tire on a Honda Civic, while the competition is boosting the turbo on their WRX.

cdskier
11-29-2015, 11:00 AM
There has been steady improvement over the last several years. New lodges, condos, groomers, pipe, guns, lifts, etc. The mountain should be recognized for making these significant investments. The problem (in my opinion) is that the competition started off in a better position, with Sugarbush being in an infrastructure deficit. So while Sugarbush plays catch-up, the competition keeps moving the goal post.


This is a good point. Not only did Sugarbush have a lot of deferred maintenance type of issues, they also had what seems like a significantly smaller snowmaking system than some of their competition to start with. K has had a giant snowmaking system for ages so it certainly isn't fair to try to say why isn't SB keeping up with K. I'm personally happy with the incremental improvements that have been made. If snowmaking upgrades were being completely ignored, then I'd have a concern.

HowieT2
11-29-2015, 02:25 PM
This is a good point. Not only did Sugarbush have a lot of deferred maintenance type of issues, they also had what seems like a significantly smaller snowmaking system than some of their competition to start with. K has had a giant snowmaking system for ages so it certainly isn't fair to try to say why isn't SB keeping up with K. I'm personally happy with the incremental improvements that have been made. If snowmaking upgrades were being completely ignored, then I'd have a concern.

Agreed. And also, sugarbush the resort business is much smaller than kton or Stowe (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). They have a lot more skier visits, and a lot more real estate to put those people in. I don't know what the numbers are but I would think they each have at least double the skier visits. And I wouldn't be surprised if their revenues were triple that of sb's. So while sb has the same terrain to cover, it has less revenue to invest in and operate the system.
And sure, one can argue, well, invest in a better snowmaking system and you'll increase the skier visits to match those other resorts, resulting in more revenue, but I don't think that would work, and I wouldn't want twice as many skiers anyway, thank you very much.

djd66
11-29-2015, 04:53 PM
Agreed. And also, sugarbush the resort business is much smaller than kton or Stowe (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). They have a lot more skier visits, and a lot more real estate to put those people in. I don't know what the numbers are but I would think they each have at least double the skier visits. And I wouldn't be surprised if their revenues were triple that of sb's. So while sb has the same terrain to cover, it has less revenue to invest in and operate the system.
And sure, one can argue, well, invest in a better snowmaking system and you'll increase the skier visits to match those other resorts, resulting in more revenue, but I don't think that would work, and I wouldn't want twice as many skiers anyway, thank you very much.

Completely agree Howie. For Sugarbush to have the fire power of KT or SR it would require many more people buying more tickets and a major increase in revenue for it to be sustainable. I don't want to see Sugarbush look like either of those places. I'm happy with the sustainable growth we have had. Hopefully things will cool down and we will have some help from Mother Nature.

steamboat1
11-29-2015, 06:05 PM
The lodging options in the valley are really pretty limited. Especially since it's supposed to support three major ski areas. This probably holds skier visits down. K has a 5 mile long access road with many lodging options not to mention nearby Rutland. Stowe has the access road plus what's in & around the town. More beds for weekend skiers/boarders to stay in nearby. Sugarbush has nothing compared to these other areas.

Benski
11-29-2015, 07:56 PM
The lodging options in the valley are really pretty limited. Especially since it's supposed to support three major ski areas. This probably holds skier visits down. K has a 5 mile long access road with many lodging options not to mention nearby Rutland. Stowe has the access road plus what's in & around the town. More beds for weekend skiers/boarders to stay in nearby. Sugarbush has nothing compared to these other areas.

And that up to entrepreneurs to fix not the resort. It seems apparent to me Win and co don't know much about restaurants. Timbers has not really gone anywhere. I think they should stop operating timbers and lease it to a separate owner.

jwt
11-29-2015, 08:01 PM
The lodging options in the valley are really pretty limited. Especially since it's supposed to support three major ski areas. This probably holds skier visits down. K has a 5 mile long access road with many lodging options not to mention nearby Rutland. Stowe has the access road plus what's in & around the town. More beds for weekend skiers/boarders to stay in nearby. Sugarbush has nothing compared to these other areas.

Lodging story as shared with me years ago - and also the secret off the valley ( besides the lake effect extra snow, better trees, and the fact that those resorts don't have a Castlerock, a MRG, or a good vibe - for lack of a better description) is the 6 K beds in the valley compared with 20K-30K beds in the other two.

no thanks - skied K-Mart Sat - nice! Had fun! Spent years there! Glad I'm here with that as an option. ( Or Stowe or Jay)

As many have repeated on this board - once the 2' drop we all forget about snow-making.

If people want crowds and more great snow-making they have choices. if they want to take a chance - like us pass-holders do every year on the chance we'll get good natural snow - which happens at least 4 of every 5 years if not more - they can.

Otherwise let's not beat a dead horse. The rest can buy a ticket here when great or go elsewhere - whats left of the free market is here in Vermont.

No one is forced to stay here, live here, or buy a pass or ticket here. Fair to compare, but not apples to apples. It's more like a Porsche and a loaded Ford Explorer - you can enjoy both, even the Porsche in a slow drive in the city, or the Explorer when it's loaded with kids and gear, but when the road is dry and curvy, oooh boy - what's a Ford?

cdskier
11-29-2015, 08:44 PM
Lodging story as shared with me years ago - and also the secret off the valley ( besides the lake effect extra snow, better trees, and the fact that those resorts don't have a Castlerock, a MRG, or a good vibe - for lack of a better description) is the 6 K beds in the valley compared with 20K-30K beds in the other two.

no thanks - skied K-Mart Sat - nice! Had fun! Spent years there! Glad I'm here with that as an option. ( Or Stowe or Jay)

As many have repeated on this board - once the 2' drop we all forget about snow-making.

If people want crowds and more great snow-making they have choices. if they want to take a chance - like us pass-holders do every year on the chance we'll get good natural snow - which happens at least 4 of every 5 years if not more - they can.

Otherwise let's not beat a dead horse. The rest can buy a ticket here when great or go elsewhere - whats left of the free market is here in Vermont.

No one is forced to stay here, live here, or buy a pass or ticket here. Fair to compare, but not apples to apples. It's more like a Porsche and a loaded Ford Explorer - you can enjoy both, even the Porsche in a slow drive in the city, or the Explorer when it's loaded with kids and gear, but when the road is dry and curvy, oooh boy - what's a Ford?

Agreed with all of this. I'll take the MRV the way it is now along with our current snowmaking capabilities any day over K or Stowe. The vibe of the MRV is certainly special and I never got that in either K or Stowe when I visited them in the past.

steamboat1
11-29-2015, 09:16 PM
And that up to entrepreneurs to fix not the resort.

Never said it was up to the resort to fix. Never said it was a problem either. Just offered it as a reason Sugarbush doesn't see the same skier visits as the others. I'm sure Win would like to see additional lodging offered in the area to increase skier visits. Gotta fill all the additional parking added this year.

cdskier
11-29-2015, 10:28 PM
Never said it was up to the resort to fix. Never said it was a problem either. Just offered it as a reason Sugarbush doesn't see the same skier visits as the others. I'm sure Win would like to see additional lodging offered in the area to increase skier visits. Gotta fill all the additional parking added this year.

I'm not so sure the "if you build it they will come" model fits the MRV. Other than holiday periods there's usually open lodging available somewhere in the valley many weekends from my own past experience. Before I owned a place I never had trouble finding something when I wanted to. I think some people stay away because they think it is "out of the way". Then you also have some people that simply want to party and the MRV isn't for that crowd either (and I'm perfectly fine with keeping it that way! :) )

Hawk
11-29-2015, 10:31 PM
So I skied 3 days this weekend and this is my opinion. The quality of the snow was fine for opening weekend. Actually best I have seen so the new guns seem to be an improvement. There were no huge icy whales like past years and coverage was good with no huge areas of icy mess. The temps warmed up on Friday so it was spring skiing. Great day on Friday best so far. ;-) That is the good.
Now for the bad. As far as how fast it takes them to cover trails and how many guns they can run...it is not that big an increase from the last few years. I guess slow and steady is what we will have for the foreseeable future based on all the posts here. They also did not double back and refesh the trails we were skiing on this weekend. Instead they chose to blow Ripchord and tried to blow some mud on the lower elevations even though the temps seemed marginal. This is the most disappointing thing I find with sugarbush. Everybody that thinks that this is OK frustrates me. It could be so much better but that doesn't matter.

I will leave you with a quote from the head snowmaker at my prior ski area. " The most important thing at a ski area is the product, Snow! Put down a good product all the time and the people will remember. IF you don't they will remember that sand go somewhere else."
Next weekend I will be skiing where the conditions are best because I can.

wolftracks56
11-30-2015, 04:10 AM
Good luck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkrevy has good conditions see you there

wolftracks56
11-30-2015, 04:28 AM
What's going on at Mt Ellen ???


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Dblshot
11-30-2015, 08:56 AM
[QUOTE=Hawk;225658]So I skied 3 days this weekend and this is my opinion. The quality of the snow was fine for opening weekend. Actually best I have seen so the new guns seem to be an improvement. There were no huge icy whales like past years and coverage was good with no huge areas of icy mess. The temps warmed up on Friday so it was spring skiing. Great day on Friday best so far. ;

Friday was nice because it was warm but Saturday and Sunday were icy, especially Downspout. I have to refresh my snow report translator- "sharpen your edges" means bring hockey skates. I understand it froze, but can the groomers go out early in the morning to groom, not at 4pm so it's frozen corduroy? At least running the towers on Downspout to refresh would have been nice. The snowmaking down low on Sunday was for show, the amount of running water coming out of the piles was comical, while there were guns on Ripcord that could have been turned on. Slow and steady it is. Hopefully no more downloading, that is the worst.

Ride Delaware ?
11-30-2015, 10:20 AM
I would imagine that they blew down low because they were getting some production, even if it wasn't the greatest. The temps don't look great, even after the warmup this week, for blowing at the bottom, so I imagine they wanted to get whatever they could down at the base because they will have some temps at elevation later this week to finish off Ripcord.


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pinnoke
11-30-2015, 03:44 PM
The plan is to open t2b tomorrow (Tuesday). Skiing today was very nice; Grinder even better than Sunday's good initial groom. Of course, fewer skiers today = conditions that held up well into the afternoon. Noticeably more production from the guns compared to Sunday. Should be a very nice Tuesday morning.

winjr
11-30-2015, 04:47 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions and opinions. First, if we have the same number of skier visits as past three years, we will be very happy. We can grow more and still have a quality experience but the greatest unused capacity is midweek which is why we offered the Boomer Pass. Unlike most other resorts 55%-60% of our skier visits are passholders. They either drive from nearby or have a home or condo or seasonal rental, so lodging needs are different than some other areas. We saw the need for more modern slope side residences and that is why we have built was we have and have planned.

Comment about Timbers. Yes, we got off to a rocky start with wrong chef, but it is doing well now. Chef Todd Dibkey is great as is rest of staff now and it serves many needs all year around. No restaurant pleases everyone but The Valley has some excellent choices, and it is good to see new entrants like Mad River Barn, Elusive Moose, Blue Stone (former Den) and Fit2bThai at The Sugarbush Inn. The Hideaway also had nice new owners.These complement long time establishments like The Common Man, Chez Henri, Flat Bread and the two restaurants at The Pitcher Inn.
A
I enjoy Hawk's passion but his last post has some factual errors. As I and others have already said the new equipment has increased our snowmaking capacity significantly especially early season when temps are marginal. For the past couple of days we had guns running from top of Ripcord to the base putting out in excess of 3,300 gpm. In years past we would have been a third of that. The choice of going to the trails we did rather than resurfacing was based on the forecast. First priority is top to bottom as well as more terrain. We saw a two day window and that had paid off as we will be top to bottom tomorrow. We had sufficient depth to groom what is open and later week temps may only allow peak snowmaking after warm up which will then make sense to do some.
Resurfacing. We do plan to put. another. 2 millions gallons on Upper Organgrinder to set it up for the season.
A comment about snow whales. As I have said it the past, it is best to leave these mounds to drain moisture for 24-48 hours before grooming . Otherwise you press moist snow and it can become bullet proof. In the past we made snow just in time to
open this year with fewer snowmaking hours due to temps we were able to let the snow sit and then
groom for opening on Thanksgiving. Hope these comments help.

shadyjay
11-30-2015, 05:13 PM
We had a really good night last night and made quite a bit of snow from bottom of HG down to the base. The amazing thing about making snow is watching a trail go from grass/dirt to skiable in a matter of days.

I'm planning on going out for the first time this year tomorrow morning. I believe downloading will still be available as lower DS won't be groomed out yet (from what the report says). Need to at least break in my legs on Upper DS and Jester. Plus, going through the piles on the flats probably will be a little "challenging" on my board.

Hope the upcoming weather doesn't do much damage and we can move on to SB/Fling soon. That'll be a nice fun run.

ducky
12-01-2015, 01:34 PM
Top to bottom today. Organgrinder skiing well as was Lower Downspout runout. Started raining around 11:30 despite it being 30˚.

Roads really bad in the Valley with black ice, especially on bridges.

HowieT2
12-01-2015, 04:57 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions and opinions. First, if we have the same number of skier visits as past three years, we will be very happy. We can grow more and still have a quality experience but the greatest unused capacity is midweek which is why we offered the Boomer Pass. Unlike most other resorts 55%-60% of our skier visits are passholders. They either drive from nearby or have a home or condo or seasonal rental, so lodging needs are different than some other areas. We saw the need for more modern slope side residences and that is why we have built was we have and have planned.

Comment about Timbers. Yes, we got off to a rocky start with wrong chef, but it is doing well now. Chef Todd Dibkey is great as is rest of staff now and it serves many needs all year around. No restaurant pleases everyone but The Valley has some excellent choices, and it is good to see new entrants like Mad River Barn, Elusive Moose, Blue Stone (former Den) and Fit2bThai at The Sugarbush Inn. The Hideaway also had nice new owners.These complement long time establishments like The Common Man, Chez Henri, Flat Bread and the two restaurants at The Pitcher Inn.
A
I enjoy Hawk's passion but his last post has some factual errors. As I and others have already said the new equipment has increased our snowmaking capacity significantly especially early season when temps are marginal. For the past couple of days we had guns running from top of Ripcord to the base putting out in excess of 3,300 gpm. In years past we would have been a third of that. The choice of going to the trails we did rather than resurfacing was based on the forecast. First priority is top to bottom as well as more terrain. We saw a two day window and that had paid off as we will be top to bottom tomorrow. We had sufficient depth to groom what is open and later week temps may only allow peak snowmaking after warm up which will then make sense to do some.
Resurfacing. We do plan to put. another. 2 millions gallons on Upper Organgrinder to set it up for the season.
A comment about snow whales. As I have said it the past, it is best to leave these mounds to drain moisture for 24-48 hours before grooming . Otherwise you press moist snow and it can become bullet proof. In the past we made snow just in time to
open this year with fewer snowmaking hours due to temps we were able to let the snow sit and then
groom for opening on Thanksgiving. Hope these comments help.

Timbers is a tough proposition because it has to be open 7/365 even at times when it isn't profitable. so its probably not amenable to outsourcing like skinny pancake and fit2bthai, which btw I am really looking forward to trying.

cdskier
12-01-2015, 05:20 PM
fit2bthai, which btw I am really looking forward to trying.

I'll second that. Apparently they were at Slide Brook Lodge all summer and I had no idea and never even noticed the bunch of times I drove by on German Flats road.

HowieT2
12-01-2015, 05:29 PM
I'll second that. Apparently they were at Slide Brook Lodge all summer and I had no idea and never even noticed the bunch of times I drove by on German Flats road.

same here. had no idea but then again, am not a big fan of the slidebrook lodge. If the thai is good, then the only real void for food in the valley will be sushi

Benski
12-01-2015, 06:09 PM
same here. had no idea but then again, am not a big fan of the slidebrook lodge. If the thai is good, then the only real void for food in the valley will be sushi

Lets be honest. Only locals will east sushi in the valley. It's a little landlocked and sugarbush is mainly drawing from coastal cities.

Benski
12-01-2015, 06:11 PM
The valley is still lacking in Indian food.

cdskier
12-01-2015, 06:31 PM
same here. had no idea but then again, am not a big fan of the slidebrook lodge. If the thai is good, then the only real void for food in the valley will be sushi

If I want a quick good burger in the winter I'll stop in there.

BarkingDog
12-02-2015, 07:27 AM
Doesn't the Butchery have good sushi? His new place is great.

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Hawk
12-02-2015, 07:44 AM
Not necessarily true. I certainly can not be considered a local and I have had the sushi from the guys who go to Flatbread. They are like a travelling Sushi Outfit. They are very good. I also had the Sushi at the Butchery. They also do a good job but it is very limited. Let's face it. If you are not in a major Fishing outlet, the sushi can be limited and maybe not up to the standards of a Sushi addict. But for what it is, it is not bad. I will agree that if there was a dedicated Sushi Place that had good quality. I would go quite often. Sushi Oshi at Stowe does a good job. We go there whenever we are passing through.

Lets be honest. Only locals will east sushi in the valley. It's a little landlocked and sugarbush is mainly drawing from coastal cities.

Hawk
12-02-2015, 07:45 AM
Yup. I would like this also if it ever came to the valley.


The valley is still lacking in Indian food.

HowieT2
12-02-2015, 10:03 AM
If I want a quick good burger in the winter I'll stop in there.

Really? Never heard anyone recommend the food there. I had a bad experience there 15-20 years ago and haven't been back.

HowieT2
12-02-2015, 10:04 AM
Doesn't the Butchery have good sushi? His new place is great.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Oh yeah. Love that place.

HowieT2
12-02-2015, 10:06 AM
Not necessarily true. I certainly can not be considered a local and I have had the sushi from the guys who go to Flatbread. They are like a travelling Sushi Outfit. They are very good. I also had the Sushi at the Butchery. They also do a good job but it is very limited. Let's face it. If you are not in a major Fishing outlet, the sushi can be limited and maybe not up to the standards of a Sushi addict. But for what it is, it is not bad. I will agree that if there was a dedicated Sushi Place that had good quality. I would go quite often. Sushi Oshi at Stowe does a good job. We go there whenever we are passing through.

We always miss the sushi at flatbreads.

HowieT2
12-02-2015, 10:09 AM
Yup. I would like this also if it ever came to the valley.

Good call. Would love me some good indian.
The millbrook inn on 17 used to have some indian on the menu but we never tried it

lpy
12-02-2015, 10:21 AM
Landlocked, yes, but Jeff at the Butchery is supplied by Ethan at Wood Mountain Fish:

http://woodmountainfish.com

He brings seafood up daily from Boston. Great stuff. Not sure who supplies Himitsu at Flatbread, but it's also excellent. Butchery has sushi Weds. and Sat., Himitsu Weds. night.

pinnoke
12-02-2015, 10:25 AM
might be time to spin-off this conversation to a separate thread! Of course, there's not much to write about today's skiing. Keeping hopes high, however. Kudos to Mt. Ops for making the most of a lousy situation.

Dblshot
12-02-2015, 10:55 AM
Really? Never heard anyone recommend the food there. I had a bad experience there 15-20 years ago and haven't been back.

Back when it was Pepper's? It was a good place to get breakfast, always got the eggs Benny. I admit I never think of Slide Brook as a place to go eat. I had the Rt 100 burger at the CR Pub over the weekend and it was very good!! Bring back the fried shrooms though....

Could use a short order breakfast place- I liked the one next to the Tavern years ago, quick and easy. What are the options now? Big Picture great but takes a while.

cdskier
12-02-2015, 11:01 AM
Really? Never heard anyone recommend the food there. I had a bad experience there 15-20 years ago and haven't been back.

Dino from mutha stuffers recommended it to me one day is I gave it a try. Thought the burger was one of the best I had in the valley. Mad river barn and Hyde away would be my other choices for a good burger

gostan
12-02-2015, 12:31 PM
Am I logged in to the correct forum? I will gladly skip a season full of the the sushi indian burgers if we can bring a good foot + of the white stuff to the Valley real soon. This weekend will be my first 3 days of the new season. All this talk about food only increases my ski appetite.