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HowieT2
01-01-2015, 12:58 PM
Uh, some big news for the new year from Win.

Our main New Year's resolution is to keep making Sugarbush bettter for you and in 2015 the major item on our list will be a new Fixed grip quad to replace the Valley House double. If we're able to get it permitted, we want to have the loading area brought further down the hill for the convenience of everyone. - See more at: http://www.sugarbush.com/blogs/wins-word/happy-new-year-406#sthash.3QrVfqDU.dpuf

Please tell tell. I think most everyone agrees having the loading area closer to the base is of great import. Are we talking significant alterations to the structure of the valley house? Interesting stuff. My take is, brand new lifts aren't installed often for obvious reasons. It's a major undertaking. So when you do it, best to do it right. A new quad will be tremendous enhancement in and of itself but having it easily accessible from the base would profoundly better.

jwt
01-01-2015, 03:13 PM
That could be great news - seems now based on the comments they would like to have it go down closer to Bravo but permitting might be the hold up. Never could understand leaving it where it is - sure it will take a higher initial tower to get it over the ops building but three lifts from the main base of a major resort makes so much sense.

some regrading of the base on that hill coming from VH but well worth the effort. I'm just thinking how much trouble excess regulations cause in this small ( owner owned - not even NF land) project. Holding up jobs, tax money, some big cap expenses, and waiting waiting waiting . . .I guess the regulators need something to keep them busy. Southern California would still be a desert if Hoover was attempted now. . . . . now for some natural snow. . . . . .

win
01-01-2015, 03:56 PM
The plan is to take down the two MTN ops buildings downhill of the mushroom. There is a water plant that would remain but the rest of the area would maintain a retaining wall near where the existing foundation is and the area filled in with dirt and seeded. Loading would be approximately the middle of the mountain operations building. It would be spaced so as not to interfere with Bravo corral and the ski passage way from Gondolier past Bravo. it would provide great uphill out of the area.

Benski
01-01-2015, 04:56 PM
Sounds great.

HowieT2
01-01-2015, 07:04 PM
The plan is to take down the two MTN ops buildings downhill of the mushroom. There is a water plant that would remain but the rest of the area would maintain a retaining wall near where the existing foundation is and the area filled in with dirt and seeded. Loading would be approximately the middle of the mountain operations building. It would be spaced so as not to interfere with Bravo corral and the ski passage way from Gondolier past Bravo. it would provide great uphill out of the area.

Bravo ( no pun intended). Obviously, I'm a big fan of the extra effort to load at the base. Today is a perfect example of how helpful it will be to have a third lift at the base. Well worth the additional effort.
Any reason to think getting it permitted will be an issue?

win
01-02-2015, 08:32 AM
The only potential issue is that it mayl be closer than 50 feet from the Claybrook stream bank which is not allowed under the current ANR guidelines. Our position is we are grandfathered due to the existing building and we will be improving the areas because we will have less impermeable surfaces there. In our opinion is really will be environmentally better. This is very close to where the old Gondola bottom terminal once was.

Orca
01-02-2015, 08:54 AM
Sounds like a perfect New Year's resolution! Very good to hear that the plans are proceeding. Moving the loading area lower would be a truly great enhancement to the plan.

Tin Woodsman
01-02-2015, 06:50 PM
Smart smart smart. Howie nails it. Lift installs are expensive and happen only once every 20-30 years for a given lift line, so better to get it right the first time.

Orca
01-02-2015, 08:12 PM
Smart smart smart. Howie nails it. Lift installs are expensive and happen only once every 20-30 years for a given lift line, so better to get it right the first time.

20-30 years is too short! Castlerock ran over 40 years before it was replaced. Village Double is 50, Sunshine is 51, and Valley House is 54 this year. Heaven's Gate is 30 and will surely be asked to run another 20 more.


All of this just reinforces the point of getting it right.

angler
01-03-2015, 10:52 AM
Everyone of those lifts needed to be replaced years ago.

Benski
01-03-2015, 07:38 PM
I skied the mall yesterday and noticed stumps sticking out of the snow on skiers left. It appeared the trail has already been widened in preparation for the lift replacement.

btw the trail sucked and It was partially hawks fault that I skied it. You bastared!

Hawk
01-04-2015, 09:23 AM
Was that you Ben. I said the first 6 turns were the best. ;-) It was skiable and was certainly better than steins and what I did over on Castlerock. Looks like we are dodging the bullet a bit with not that much R#$@. Maybe by next weekend thing will be improved.

Lifts can run very efficiently for 50 years with yearly maintenance. if the towers, bases and top and bottom terminals have no structural defects there is no need to replace the lift. Motors, tower hardware, chairs, cable and electronics can all be maintained and or replaced at a fraction of the cost of replacement. You just have to stay on top of it.

Benski
01-04-2015, 02:03 PM
Was that you Ben. I said the first 6 turns were the best. ;-)

Yes. I was in the "darker" green jacket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Da Fugee
01-05-2015, 11:30 PM
It looks like I'm in the minority, but I will come out and say how I feel, which is strong about this subject.

There is simply not enough room for corrals at the bottom of the hill. It is already a nightmare on a busy day skiing from the VH side over to the Gatehouse side. This won't matter anyway when the chair sits rotting M-F.

And I know clay brookers need to have first tracks on top of a constitutional right to not have to take more than 75 paces to a lift, to not have north be the spring venue even when it makes sense, etc and so on, but that still doesn't make this the "right" choice. Best of a bad situation? Maybe. It's probably too late to move Timbers and CB back about 300' to have a normal view of the hill and ease of getting around as a skier that other resorts have the luxury of. The whole base configuration is such that you'd think that Sugarbush was in a box canyon like Telluride.

Now we're going to lose another couple of buildings that house patrol and equipment. Where is that stuff supposed to go? I guess I wouldn't mind if it took over the "CastleRock Pub" if the Valley House Lodge could get some of the attention it deserves. Like music in the mushroom, a view of the incredible mountain, and a far more passable spring venue with bumps on the Mall, fan guns on both sides of the Snowball and Spring Fling, and burgers and beers on the deck where the action is.

I guess I just don't really get the short sighted abomination that is the top of steins, the gate house lodge positioning, and the soon to be civil war battlefield on the Bravo side of the hill.

Oh well.

All these people write stories about going back in time and preventing WWII. Makes sense, but I think I'd make a few stops along the way, first to put CB next to Sugarbush Village and then to convince the maker of "Low-E" guns to do something useful like basket weaving instead. Possibly drop a polite suggestion in the bush comment box about RFID being a better option than the hand scanners. Or at least, have one person scan while other people make the lines move.

Now everyone get back to the kissing the status quo's butt like Killington hasn't done a 180 in the past ten years. When Jay got a new Tram and waterpark. And I wonder how Smuggs is going to look when Okemo or Windham gets their hands on it and puts HSQ's from base to summit. They only have ratniks so far but at least they feed them a lot of diesel. Sugarbush has done a lot too, like watch almost every decent restaurant go out of business in the valley while the mountain somehow scooped up all the real estate on the access road so we can enjoy $15 cheesesteaks in moms basement at the hill.

Hawk
01-06-2015, 08:20 AM
Wow, I guess my request for more snowmaking on exiting snowmaking trials is a small request.

Can't go back in time. We must go forward. Not much we can do here to affect change. I do agree with some of what you say here but definitely not all of it. The low E guns work fine when they manage them. In fact the whole industry is converting and you will not see anything else in the future. The layout that they have at the base could work fine with the new lift if they manage it well. I would rather see the new lift then not so I will live with what they do. What does Sugarbush have to do with restaurants going out of business? If you are talking about the Warren House, I think the owners just got tired of doing business and closed up. That building sat on the market for a couple of years before the mountain bought it. I own at Lincoln peak so I totally disagree with the whole Mt. Ellen Spring Skiing thing. Besides Steins is a much better option as it is straight fall line and longer than skiing FIS. I enjoy skiing it.

I agree entirely about the Castlerock Pub. Shawn and Rich are good people to me and I enjoy the atmosphere with my friends......but they had a chance to design and build this lodge from the ground up. IMO they totally miss it with the layout. It is way too small, the layout does not work with the amount of people and it has no view. They leave thousands of dollars on the table every weekend because people can not get served and leave or do not come at all. Not the case for me but that is the common complaint. Why they didn't put the pub on the upper level with a huge glass wall look out on the hill is beyond me. My guess is the focus was on the wedding venue and the Pub fell to a secondary status.

HowieT2
01-06-2015, 09:32 AM
It looks like I'm in the minority, but I will come out and say how I feel, which is strong about this subject.

There is simply not enough room for corrals at the bottom of the hill. It is already a nightmare on a busy day skiing from the VH side over to the Gatehouse side. This won't matter anyway when the chair sits rotting M-F.

And I know clay brookers need to have first tracks on top of a constitutional right to not have to take more than 75 paces to a lift, to not have north be the spring venue even when it makes sense, etc and so on, but that still doesn't make this the "right" choice. Best of a bad situation? Maybe. It's probably too late to move Timbers and CB back about 300' to have a normal view of the hill and ease of getting around as a skier that other resorts have the luxury of. The whole base configuration is such that you'd think that Sugarbush was in a box canyon like Telluride.

Now we're going to lose another couple of buildings that house patrol and equipment. Where is that stuff supposed to go? I guess I wouldn't mind if it took over the "CastleRock Pub" if the Valley House Lodge could get some of the attention it deserves. Like music in the mushroom, a view of the incredible mountain, and a far more passable spring venue with bumps on the Mall, fan guns on both sides of the Snowball and Spring Fling, and burgers and beers on the deck where the action is.

I guess I just don't really get the short sighted abomination that is the top of steins, the gate house lodge positioning, and the soon to be civil war battlefield on the Bravo side of the hill.

Oh well.

All these people write stories about going back in time and preventing WWII. Makes sense, but I think I'd make a few stops along the way, first to put CB next to Sugarbush Village and then to convince the maker of "Low-E" guns to do something useful like basket weaving instead. Possibly drop a polite suggestion in the bush comment box about RFID being a better option than the hand scanners. Or at least, have one person scan while other people make the lines move.

Now everyone get back to the kissing the status quo's butt like Killington hasn't done a 180 in the past ten years. When Jay got a new Tram and waterpark. And I wonder how Smuggs is going to look when Okemo or Windham gets their hands on it and puts HSQ's from base to summit. They only have ratniks so far but at least they feed them a lot of diesel. Sugarbush has done a lot too, like watch almost every decent restaurant go out of business in the valley while the mountain somehow scooped up all the real estate on the access road so we can enjoy $15 cheesesteaks in moms basement at the hill.

I'm not going to address your complaints about everything wrong with this world. I'm sorry that you are such an unhappy person. complaining about the restaurant situation in the MRV and blaming the resort, is truly bizarre. but I guess to each his own.
your complaint about siting the lift at the base, imho, is misguided. There is plenty of room for a corral that doesnt interfere with that of the superbravo. and as for removing the mountain ops buildings, I'm sure they will find alternate accommodations.
you've gotta be a pretty miserable sob, not to be happy about replacing a rickety old slow double with a spanking new quad which wont require hucking up to. but, whatever.

MntMan4Bush
01-06-2015, 09:57 AM
I always liked the "rustic" look of the VH and figured so long as it was safe I didn't care what it looked like. But if it's time is up and it helps with uphill capacity then see ya later.

If we're talking about setup I guess I will chime in how it seems that everything you want to do is uphill at SB. Want to ski NL? Just hike up there. SB is just up there, but don't worry VH is just a bit further up. Want to ski Jester or OG. Head on up that hill. (or thank god cut through now for OG) Coming from Bravo or Exterminator after doing FIS. Better build up some speed. Just did upper OG and want to continue on down to lower OG? Have fun. Coming from SB and want to hit the GH chair? I guess not uphill but ski around this crowd through this narrow corridor and then up a bit as you weave through people. From GH to SB? Same thing in reverse. Nothing they can really do now, but if we're going back in time then I might make a few changes. It's not a huge deal by any means and I can always use the work out, but it is comical and all I can think of is the family with kids that skis once or twice a year struggling to get up to jester. I guess they could put the GH lines like they used to feeding form both sides and have one guy organizing.

While we're going back in time I want to meet the person that first raked or mowed their yard. I don't just want to set them right I want to make an example out of them so no one gets any crazy ideas later on in time. "Hey remember that guy who tried raking up all those leaves years ago? Boy. I wouldn't want to be him. Poor guy. I'd never dream of trying that ......".

As for CR Pub it was not well thought out and no one can argue that. I've said it before, and I'm guessing it wouldn't work because of supporting infrastructure, but the rental shop would be a better place. Big windows and at least a view of the mountain, although only GH chair. Not sure if it's bigger or not, but I feel there would be more room to expand and build off it maybe up the hill a bit more and to the looker's right (skier's left). And who can argue that the CR pub doesn't feel like a rental shop space? Maybe make it the rental place with a coffee nook/cafe on the side? Just one guy talking here though.

For spring I like the idea of maybe making Spring Fling a signature trail. Just blast that thing a la Superstar all year long with guns. Then set up some grills and kegs outside and kick back at the Wunderbar. I used to work there a long time back and they'd have the reggae fest up there. I remember once the Budweiser Aerial Assault Team came and did their thing while having beers outside. It was pretty sweet.

HowieT2
01-06-2015, 10:24 AM
I always liked the "rustic" look of the VH and figured so long as it was safe I didn't care what it looked like. But if it's time is up and it helps with uphill capacity then see ya later.

If we're talking about setup I guess I will chime in how it seems that everything you want to do is uphill at SB. Want to ski NL? Just hike up there. SB is just up there, but don't worry VH is just a bit further up. Want to ski Jester or OG. Head on up that hill. (or thank god cut through now for OG) Coming from Bravo or Exterminator after doing FIS. Better build up some speed. Just did upper OG and want to continue on down to lower OG? Have fun. Coming from SB and want to hit the GH chair? I guess not uphill but ski around this crowd through this narrow corridor and then up a bit as you weave through people. From GH to SB? Same thing in reverse. Nothing they can really do now, but if we're going back in time then I might make a few changes. It's not a huge deal by any means and I can always use the work out, but it is comical and all I can think of is the family with kids that skis once or twice a year struggling to get up to jester. I guess they could put the GH lines like they used to feeding form both sides and have one guy organizing.

While we're going back in time I want to meet the person that first raked or mowed their yard. I don't just want to set them right I want to make an example out of them so no one gets any crazy ideas later on in time. "Hey remember that guy who tried raking up all those leaves years ago? Boy. I wouldn't want to be him. Poor guy. I'd never dream of trying that ......".

As for CR Pub it was not well thought out and no one can argue that. I've said it before, and I'm guessing it wouldn't work because of supporting infrastructure, but the rental shop would be a better place. Big windows and at least a view of the mountain, although only GH chair. Not sure if it's bigger or not, but I feel there would be more room to expand and build off it maybe up the hill a bit more and to the looker's right (skier's left). And who can argue that the CR pub doesn't feel like a rental shop space? Maybe make it the rental place with a coffee nook/cafe on the side? Just one guy talking here though.

For spring I like the idea of maybe making Spring Fling a signature trail. Just blast that thing a la Superstar all year long with guns. Then set up some grills and kegs outside and kick back at the Wunderbar. I used to work there a long time back and they'd have the reggae fest up there. I remember once the Budweiser Aerial Assault Team came and did their thing while having beers outside. It was pretty sweet.

yeah its really strange how a mountain requires going up sometimes. Win should've replaced the whole dang thing from lincoln gap to the app gap. couple of trillion tons of concrete maybe would have smoothed things out for you. perhaps you'd prefer one of those indoor ski things in dubai or nj.

MntMan4Bush
01-06-2015, 10:51 AM
Now who's a miserable sob? Was just an observation on my part. As I mentioned "Nothing they can really do, but if we're going back in time". I find it amusing. Lighten up Francis.

Dblshot
01-06-2015, 12:00 PM
CR Pub- maybe just enclose the outdoor deck with an addition and push the outdoor seating into the 12' wide concrete walkway, there a lot of space that does not get used unitl the spring.

HowieT2
01-06-2015, 01:20 PM
Now who's a miserable sob? Was just an observation on my part. As I mentioned "Nothing they can really do, but if we're going back in time". I find it amusing. Lighten up Francis.
Its been said before, but the complaining about everything, gets tiring and is driving people away from this forum. and I have no problem when legitimate issues and criticisms are aired in a constructive manner. But ranting about the topography of the mountain seems to me to be beyond the pale.

HowieT2
01-06-2015, 01:24 PM
CR Pub- maybe just enclose the outdoor deck with an addition and push the outdoor seating into the 12' wide concrete walkway, there a lot of space that does not get used unitl the spring.

i was thinking the same thing. I heated tent might work except for the snow/ice coming off the roof.

djd66
01-06-2015, 01:25 PM
yeah its really strange how a mountain requires going up sometimes. Win should've replaced the whole dang thing from lincoln gap to the app gap. couple of trillion tons of concrete maybe would have smoothed things out for you. perhaps you'd prefer one of those indoor ski things in dubai or nj.

+1 ,.... thanks for the chuckle

gostan
01-06-2015, 01:26 PM
Screw the complaints about bad food, lousy snowmaking and inferior old lifts and ill-conceived new lifts. My opinion is that we all need a dose of reality instead of complaining and acting like prima donnas all the time. Two young US Ski Team racers lost their lives yesterday in Austria in an avalanche. That is something to complain about.....the loss of two "we hardly knew you" lives.

Orca
01-06-2015, 08:22 PM
It is always sad to hear of lives lost to avalanche. All of us who have the privilege of having survived one close call or another should remember our good fortunes. Still, that nor nothing else changes the fact that the CRP venue sucks.

As for the new lift. I say, hell yeah, bring it all the way to the bottom if possible. Only then will be an equal choice with Super Bravo, and it needs to be in order to alleviate the crowding.

Also, I like the new low energy guns because they lower the price point for snow, which can only mean more if it.

Benski
01-06-2015, 09:36 PM
Low e guns might also help some ski area stay in business.

MntMan4Bush
01-06-2015, 09:38 PM
Ranting? Perhaps you're embellishing a bit. I just find it amusing as I've said a few times. Sorry I brought it up and that it offends you so much and gets your panties in a twist. Actually not sorry. I enjoy twisted panties. What the hell can Win do obviously? It was hardly a criticism. It's an observation. You haven't noticed it? I'm not asking if it angers you or you want it changed. I'm asking if you've observed it. I would hope you have. Kind of hard to miss. You know. What with the uphill and all. I'll be sure to post next how I find that the smoke on the outdoor deck always seems to blow north and I'm concerned with what they plan on doing about it. Does that agitate you? Maybe if you're tired you should go to sleep. Or lighten up a bit. Not everything posted is an actual complaint that you have to jump on the SB bandwagon about and defend. Save it for the snow making threads. Though even I'd concede that there was good snow making done over the holiday week. Now if they could just touch up the paint job on Rumbles doghouse out side of Timbers then I'd be happy. I mean no one has noticed it? The things a disgrace. I don't know how he lives in there. It's a bloody hovel.



(See what I did there. )

Orca
01-07-2015, 05:45 AM
Oh good. This thread has reverted to the norm: we are back to insulting and complaining about each other rather than discussing the issues.

Hawk
01-07-2015, 07:31 AM
This! Yes that is a great idea. Killington has those round umbrellas and we could have something similar only square with retractable sides to open up in the spring.

CR Pub- maybe just enclose the outdoor deck with an addition and push the outdoor seating into the 12' wide concrete walkway, there a lot of space that does not get used unitl the spring.

Hawk
01-07-2015, 07:40 AM
Yes, very sad. I hear these stories and start to wonder how lucky I have been. There have been close calls for me and I have also been in questionable situations in the back country with my wife. I have often thought that the risk sometimes is too great but the call of the snow sirens is all to tempting. it always renews my efforts and thought process about safe back country skiing. I feel for the families and friends. :-(

Stan, it can't be all ice cream and roses all the time. People have to talk about something. Take it all with an open mind. sift through disregard the rest.

QUOTE=gostan;224433]Screw the complaints about bad food, lousy snowmaking and inferior old lifts and ill-conceived new lifts. My opinion is that we all need a dose of reality instead of complaining and acting like prima donnas all the time. Two young US Ski Team racers lost their lives yesterday in Austria in an avalanche. That is something to complain about.....the loss of two "we hardly knew you" lives.[/QUOTE]

Hawk
01-07-2015, 07:59 AM
Well Dude, there are just people out there that don't like conflict. They don't like any friction or criticism. There are also people who defend the management of the mountain to a blind fervor. Those are the people who rub me. Stan is on one side of the spectrum. He truly is a kind person who just wants to ski and have as little fiction as possible. I have met him and I fully understand where he comes from. There are others who I don't know and have never made the effort to even come down to the CR and have a drink with us and understand who we are and where our heads are at. Those people would never understand that we actually love skiing here, spend most of our time here and pretty much live the Sugarbush life. Criticizing the Mountain is like getting on a sibling or best friend. It's not done to be mean, it is done because you think they can do better. I think the banter to some extent is good. it's lets the Mountain know that we are watching and will not be fooled and if we are not then most likely most other are not. Yes some of this is foolish and I do not have any overall solutions for the foolishness.


Ranting? Perhaps you're embellishing a bit. I just find it amusing as I've said a few times. Sorry I brought it up and that it offends you so much and gets your panties in a twist. Actually not sorry. I enjoy twisted panties. What the hell can Win do obviously? It was hardly a criticism. It's an observation. You haven't noticed it? I'm not asking if it angers you or you want it changed. I'm asking if you've observed it. I would hope you have. Kind of hard to miss. You know. What with the uphill and all. I'll be sure to post next how I find that the smoke on the outdoor deck always seems to blow north and I'm concerned with what they plan on doing about it. Does that agitate you? Maybe if you're tired you should go to sleep. Or lighten up a bit. Not everything posted is an actual complaint that you have to jump on the SB bandwagon about and defend. Save it for the snow making threads. Though even I'd concede that there was good snow making done over the holiday week. Now if they could just touch up the paint job on Rumbles doghouse out side of Timbers then I'd be happy. I mean no one has noticed it? The things a disgrace. I don't know how he lives in there. It's a bloody hovel.



(See what I did there. )

HowieT2
01-07-2015, 09:32 AM
Ranting? Perhaps you're embellishing a bit. I just find it amusing as I've said a few times. Sorry I brought it up and that it offends you so much and gets your panties in a twist. Actually not sorry. I enjoy twisted panties. What the hell can Win do obviously? It was hardly a criticism. It's an observation. You haven't noticed it? I'm not asking if it angers you or you want it changed. I'm asking if you've observed it. I would hope you have. Kind of hard to miss. You know. What with the uphill and all. I'll be sure to post next how I find that the smoke on the outdoor deck always seems to blow north and I'm concerned with what they plan on doing about it. Does that agitate you? Maybe if you're tired you should go to sleep. Or lighten up a bit. Not everything posted is an actual complaint that you have to jump on the SB bandwagon about and defend. Save it for the snow making threads. Though even I'd concede that there was good snow making done over the holiday week. Now if they could just touch up the paint job on Rumbles doghouse out side of Timbers then I'd be happy. I mean no one has noticed it? The things a disgrace. I don't know how he lives in there. It's a bloody hovel.



(See what I did there. )

sorry I didnt get your attempt at humorous observations. carry on.

HowieT2
01-07-2015, 09:33 AM
fwiw- I'm going to start getting real crabby if we dont get some serious snow soon.

MntMan4Bush
01-07-2015, 09:36 AM
Well the beauty of this is I never take anything I see on the internet too seriously. In the past week I've had 8 relatives that live in foreign countries pass away leaving me huge inheritances. I'm rich suckers. They'll all be wiring it into my account through a bank in Uganda tomorrow. Rounds are on me.

I mean the fact that it's seen as ranting to think about if we had a time machine (not initiated by me by the way. Just piggy backing) and how cool would it be if the lifts were brought up higher in some places and other things done when the mountain was cut and lifts put in is a bit weird. I mean P.S. There are no time machines. Although it is 2015 so perhaps Marty is going to show up on my lawn in 72 nanoseconds. Jumping gigawatts. There he is!!!!

Anyways people shouldn't get too worked up about what they read on the web. We're all a bunch of punters that don't know much of anything, but the web makes us geniuses. Go figure. (statement not the poster profile).

MntMan4Bush
01-07-2015, 09:37 AM
sorry I didnt get your attempt at humorous observations. carry on.

No worries man. These forums keep me busy when I should be doing other things like work. I appreciate their value of distraction.

Hawk
01-07-2015, 03:19 PM
Have you two met? I know for a fact that you have been drinking in the CR Pub about 10 feet away form each other. HA!

HowieT2
01-07-2015, 03:54 PM
Have you two met? I know for a fact that you have been drinking in the CR Pub about 10 feet away form each other. HA!

I've been saying for years, we need to do a skimrv get together at the bar.

Tin Woodsman
01-07-2015, 05:41 PM
Wow, I guess my request for more snowmaking on exiting snowmaking trials is a small request.

Can't go back in time. We must go forward. Not much we can do here to affect change. I do agree with some of what you say here but definitely not all of it. The low E guns work fine when they manage them. In fact the whole industry is converting and you will not see anything else in the future. The layout that they have at the base could work fine with the new lift if they manage it well. I would rather see the new lift then not so I will live with what they do. What does Sugarbush have to do with restaurants going out of business? If you are talking about the Warren House, I think the owners just got tired of doing business and closed up. That building sat on the market for a couple of years before the mountain bought it. I own at Lincoln peak so I totally disagree with the whole Mt. Ellen Spring Skiing thing. Besides Steins is a much better option as it is straight fall line and longer than skiing FIS. I enjoy skiing it.

I agree entirely about the Castlerock Pub. Shawn and Rich are good people to me and I enjoy the atmosphere with my friends......but they had a chance to design and build this lodge from the ground up. IMO they totally miss it with the layout. It is way too small, the layout does not work with the amount of people and it has no view. They leave thousands of dollars on the table every weekend because people can not get served and leave or do not come at all. Not the case for me but that is the common complaint. Why they didn't put the pub on the upper level with a huge glass wall look out on the hill is beyond me. My guess is the focus was on the wedding venue and the Pub fell to a secondary status.

Other than the Spring skiing venue piece (I'll see your point re: length of Stein's vs. FIS and raise you 1) Lower Rim Run > Coffee Run 2) One more month of skiing possible at ME due to elevation), yeah this.

Tin Woodsman
01-07-2015, 05:54 PM
It looks like I'm in the minority, but I will come out and say how I feel, which is strong about this subject.

There is simply not enough room for corrals at the bottom of the hill. It is already a nightmare on a busy day skiing from the VH side over to the Gatehouse side. This won't matter anyway when the chair sits rotting M-F.
Not sure you've accounted in your mind for the space created by the removal of the mtn ops buildings, though you curiously reference it below. Between that extra space plus some inventive re-grading, I'm quite sure they can make it all work.



And I know clay brookers need to have first tracks on top of a constitutional right to not have to take more than 75 paces to a lift, to not have north be the spring venue even when it makes sense, etc and so on, but that still doesn't make this the "right" choice. Best of a bad situation? Maybe.
Old news. Not changing any time soon. Call me when you cut a 6 figure check to SB and then let me know how you feel about this issue.



It's probably too late to move Timbers and CB back about 300' to have a normal view of the hill and ease of getting around as a skier that other resorts have the luxury of. The whole base configuration is such that you'd think that Sugarbush was in a box canyon like Telluride.
Can't disagree here. They whiffed - badly. But that's not changing in this lifetime.


Now we're going to lose another couple of buildings that house patrol and equipment. Where is that stuff supposed to go?
Hawk covered this well. There is no shortage of locations to move these functions. I'm not even sure why you'd be upset about this.



All these people write stories about going back in time and preventing WWII. Makes sense, but I think I'd make a few stops along the way, first to put CB next to Sugarbush Village and then to convince the maker of "Low-E" guns to do something useful like basket weaving instead. Possibly drop a polite suggestion in the bush comment box about RFID being a better option than the hand scanners. Or at least, have one person scan while other people make the lines move.
Not even sure what to do with this. It's a mix of some good, but impractical observations (Claybrook location), expensive ideas for consideration (RFID), and ill-informed ranting (Low-E guns).



Now everyone get back to the kissing the status quo's butt like Killington hasn't done a 180 in the past ten years. When Jay got a new Tram and waterpark. And I wonder how Smuggs is going to look when Okemo or Windham gets their hands on it and puts HSQ's from base to summit. They only have ratniks so far but at least they feed them a lot of diesel.
Right - we are the veritable mouthpiece of SB on this forum. I'd say we are doing something right b/c both sides of this debate are complaining, but the traffic/activity on this forum doesn't exactly back that up.



Sugarbush has done a lot too, like watch almost every decent restaurant go out of business in the valley while the mountain somehow scooped up all the real estate on the access road so we can enjoy $15 cheesesteaks in moms basement at the hill.
Check your meds.

gostan
01-08-2015, 06:38 AM
I've been saying for years, we need to do a skimrv get together at the bar.

Not a bad idea as I have met Hawk, been conversing with Howie for years i think wo ever meeting & i think that such a meeting might be about the only way i would venture into the crp; especially since they raised all the food prices to the Timbers level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hawk
01-08-2015, 07:51 AM
Tin, I think you know that spring skiing length of season has very little to do with elevation anymore. Just look at Superstar. If they concentrated on Steins with more snowmaking all year I bet they could rival Killington on the Length of season. Just pile it up. And with the new quad they will have no issues with lines or the speed of the lift. Because of the setup at the Bush, we will never have a good viewing venue of the actual skiing but there are certainly things they can do to make the spring skiing better. I have never liked the Mt. Ellen spring set up. Even when I skied here in the 80's when they actually ended the season there. I guess my perspective is a bumpers perspective from Sunday River. White Heat is what I grew up on. Skiing WH until June some years was a treat. We had a portable grill and never came down to the lodge. It was a huge production every weekend with about 100 people lugging food and beer up to the trail. Sugarbush to me is a total upgrade as far as the ease of the logistics. But I want a long straight trail with some steepness to pound bumps in the spring. Steins is just about perfect. Even better than WH and Superstar as far as steep consistent vertical. So the only thing we need to work on is the Food and party piece.
Other than the Spring skiing venue piece (I'll see your point re: length of Stein's vs. FIS and raise you 1) Lower Rim Run > Coffee Run 2) One more month of skiing possible at ME due to elevation), yeah this.

Hawk
01-08-2015, 07:58 AM
I've been saying for years, we need to do a skimrv get together at the bar.

I will have to introduce you to Mntman, bumpcrasher and Stan. I bet you will say that you have seen them all on the hill and in the bar. As far as meeting, I am at the CR almost every Saturday afternoon unless the skiing is better and I can ski back to my condo. ;-) How about the rest of you anonymous lurkers? Staying behind the veil or coming out for a beer?

pinnoke
01-08-2015, 08:17 AM
I'll look for you at beer:30 sometime...but not this weekend. Perhaps we should wear masks (with at least a sipping hole) to protect our anonymity.

Orca
01-08-2015, 08:29 AM
I am up for a brew; I think it's a great idea. Not sure if I'll be up this coming weekend or not -- temps combined with a lack of recent snow are a little discouraging right now.

MntMan4Bush
01-08-2015, 09:10 AM
I won't be back up until the weekend of the 24th sadly. It may have been we've been only 10 feet away, but my vision only goes 9 feet and drops sharply after a few captain and cokes. I'm up for a beer with anyone. I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to drinking. Except for Llamas. Filthy animals. Won't drink with them. Not ever again. Well unless they're buying. Then maybe one.

Hawk
01-08-2015, 09:20 AM
There is a story here but I am afraid to ask. ;-)


I won't be back up until the weekend of the 24th sadly. It may have been we've been only 10 feet away, but my vision only goes 9 feet and drops sharply after a few captain and cokes. I'm up for a beer with anyone. I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to drinking. Except for Llamas. Filthy animals. Won't drink with them. Not ever again. Well unless they're buying. Then maybe one.

Chewbarka
01-08-2015, 10:15 AM
I think I want to have a few beers with MtnMan4Bush! Not looking like this weekend though...
I won't be back up until the weekend of the 24th sadly. It may have been we've been only 10 feet away, but my vision only goes 9 feet and drops sharply after a few captain and cokes. I'm up for a beer with anyone. I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to drinking. Except for Llamas. Filthy animals. Won't drink with them. Not ever again. Well unless they're buying. Then maybe one.

HowieT2
01-08-2015, 10:20 AM
Won't be up this weekend as I have a family commitment. Worked out pretty well considering the conditions.
Always up for a beer or 3.

Hawk
01-08-2015, 10:29 AM
Ahhhh that's right. Triple F. Forced Family Fun!

djd66
01-08-2015, 01:03 PM
I'd love to meet some of the "characters" form this forum. I'm up most weekends. It would also be great if we can throw some skiing in.

HowieT2
01-08-2015, 03:00 PM
Ahhhh that's right. Triple F. Forced Family Fun!

yes, minus the fun part.

sglatham
01-08-2015, 03:04 PM
I am sure the Spring season is one major reason for the new VH lift and taking down to the base. While I loved the early/late season at the top of MT Ellen, I agree that good spring skiing is about snowmaking (and exposure) not elevation. And I would take Steins over FIS.

southvillager
01-08-2015, 03:29 PM
I am sure the Spring season is one major reason for the new VH lift and taking down to the base. While I loved the early/late season at the top of MT Ellen, I agree that good spring skiing is about snowmaking (and exposure) not elevation. And I would take Steins over FIS.

I'd like to see this. Spring Fling and Steins both have a similar northern exposure. The VH Quad servicing that section of the mountain in April would be very cool. Even Twist/Moonshine/Eden if they hold up or get late snow. They could use the Gatehouse Lodge since the loading for the new quad will be lower.

angler
01-08-2015, 03:54 PM
It would be great for early season as well. There would be a lot more options for people and less congested.

Tin Woodsman
01-08-2015, 05:45 PM
Tin, I think you know that spring skiing length of season has very little to do with elevation anymore. Just look at Superstar. If they concentrated on Steins with more snowmaking all year I bet they could rival Killington on the Length of season. Just pile it up. And with the new quad they will have no issues with lines or the speed of the lift. Because of the setup at the Bush, we will never have a good viewing venue of the actual skiing but there are certainly things they can do to make the spring skiing better. I have never liked the Mt. Ellen spring set up. Even when I skied here in the 80's when they actually ended the season there. I guess my perspective is a bumpers perspective from Sunday River. White Heat is what I grew up on. Skiing WH until June some years was a treat. We had a portable grill and never came down to the lodge. It was a huge production every weekend with about 100 people lugging food and beer up to the trail. Sugarbush to me is a total upgrade as far as the ease of the logistics. But I want a long straight trail with some steepness to pound bumps in the spring. Steins is just about perfect. Even better than WH and Superstar as far as steep consistent vertical. So the only thing we need to work on is the Food and party piece.
I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this. Superstar base/KBL is at 2500' - a lot closer to the elevation of Glen House (3000') than the base of LP (1600'). Coffee Run usually runs into trouble before Stein's itself. I'd rather sacrifice a little in terms of spring bumps duration in order to get a nice, interesting cruiser in Lower Rim Run - sure beats a flat run out in Coffee Run. Obviously snowmaking commitment/budget is a huge factor. But I think we have to assume that's a constant here as between LP and ME. With superior elevation and aspect, ME would win out. How many times have you looked at the Monroe Skyline while coming across a muddy Roxbury Gap in the Spring to see upper mtn at ME bathed in snow while LP is mostly melted out? Given that the top of Stein's is lower than Glen House, elevation is a pretty big factor in this case, IMHO.


I am sure the Spring season is one major reason for the new VH lift and taking down to the base. While I loved the early/late season at the top of MT Ellen, I agree that good spring skiing is about snowmaking (and exposure) not elevation. And I would take Steins over FIS.
The new lift location will certainly make the spring set-up more straightforward and compact - all roads lead to the true base.


I'd like to see this. Spring Fling and Steins both have a similar northern exposure. The VH Quad servicing that section of the mountain in April would be very cool. Even Twist/Moonshine/Eden if they hold up or get late snow. They could use the Gatehouse Lodge since the loading for the new quad will be lower.
They do keep Spring Fling open pretty late - it's the last to go before Stein's. The issue is the easterly exposure of Snowball in order to get there - that's what goes first.


It would be great for early season as well. There would be a lot more options for people and less congested.
For early season, elevation seems to matter a lot more, so I'd be surprised if they went down this route. How many times have we heard Win talk about "we started on OG/Ripcord and then came down the mtn as temps allowed". My guess is that you'd average at least a one week later opening if early season is on the VH pod.

southvillager
01-08-2015, 05:46 PM
It would be great for early season as well. There would be a lot more options for people and less congested.

Good point. Early season I'd much rather ski Snowball/Steins/Spring fling than Jester/Downspout/Lower Downspout/Coffee Run or Gondolier. The runout from the bottom of the triple back to Super Bravo is long and boring...and I imagine requires a tremendous amount of snowmaking juice.

This new quad could be a game changer.

Tin Woodsman
01-08-2015, 05:48 PM
Good point. Early season I'd much rather ski Snowball/Steins/Spring fling than Jester/Downspout/Lower Downspout/Coffee Run or Gondolier. The runout from the bottom of the triple back to Super Bravo is long and boring...and I imagine requires a tremendous amount of snowmaking juice.

This new quad could be a game changer.

This is a good point. If the goal is always to be "top to bottom" and avoid downloading on Bravo, then maybe VH lift becomes a better option in that light.

southvillager
01-08-2015, 05:51 PM
For early season, elevation seems to matter a lot more, so I'd be surprised if they went down this route. How many times have we heard Win talk about "we started on OG/Ripcord and then came down the mtn as temps allowed". My guess is that you'd average at least a one week later opening if early season is on the VH pod.

Right, elevation, forgot about that. Oh well.

angler
01-08-2015, 08:58 PM
I get the elevation issue and with that being said other mountains do that. Look at Stowe they get the mountain ready from top to bottom. Understanding that they really don't have a choice, but it gets done. Also you could move over to birdland and murph, dominio ect ect. Then you would really have a strong opening with lots of options.. I know it's counter intuitive but it would be a significant improvement in the experience then doing what happens now at opening IMO. Just thinking out of the box.

HowieT2
01-08-2015, 10:34 PM
Agree that early season, elevation is a major issue.

As for spring, of note, spring fling got the new pipe and towers so one would think they made more snow there than in the past.

angler
01-08-2015, 11:27 PM
Agree that early season, elevation is a major issue.

As for spring, of note, spring fling got the new pipe and towers so one would think they made more snow there than in the past.
Other mountains have handled this issue. It would be worth while for them to figure it out when the new VH gets a home.

Dblshot
01-09-2015, 08:11 AM
Snowball faces south and melts so quickly that Fling would not be an option....unless they brought back the Spring Fling Triple!!!

Plowboy
01-09-2015, 09:12 AM
Snowball faces south and melts so quickly that Fling would not be an option....unless they brought back the Spring Fling Triple!!!

Leave VH where it is.....put a new lift from the bottom (below VH-Lodge to left) to the top of Spring Fling. Bury Stein's and Spring Fling, ski till June. Beers and BBQ in front of the VH-Lodge......Spring Fling !!!

win
01-09-2015, 09:21 AM
Layoff Rumble or the kids will get you! :)-

MntMan4Bush
01-09-2015, 10:06 AM
I remember maybe 6 years back or so on an early weekend in the season where they had Spring Fling open early and were blasting it with guns. Just carpeting it and doing a good job of it with good quality stuff. There wasn't much else open, or at least much else that was good, so we cycled that thing all day. It bumped up really nice and had some great lines in it. It may not have the steepness of Steins, but it was still a fantastic run. Haven't seen it like that since, but to be fair I don't ski it very often so it may well have been just as good since.

Anyways I think of it every now and again as a spring skiing option for this reason. Oh and the fact its called SPRING fling. I mean if it was called mid-january fling I wouldn't give it another thought. So maybe just make it a signature trail, put the guns on it and upper snowball from December to Feb and don't turn them off. Pile snow up on it 5 stories high and we'll be skiing into August baby!

MntMan4Bush
01-09-2015, 10:08 AM
Honestly he lives like a pauper in there. Get the man a crystal chandelier or something. Class that joint up!!!! :)

Hawk
01-09-2015, 10:26 AM
Tin, I don't thing you understand what I am saying. The Temperature and/or elevation will not make any difference if they turned on the guns on steins, or Spring Fling or ever snowball and ran them for say two weeks. the snow depth would be like 20 feet deep. Nothing is going to melt that. That is what they do on Super star and White Heat to make them last til June. It has absolutely nothing to do with Aspect or elevation. Have you seen this operation before? Also Steins has the same aspect as Mt. Ellen by the way. North by Northeast.

[QUOTE=Tin Woodsman;224475]I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this. Superstar base/KBL is at 2500' - a lot closer to the elevation of Glen House (3000') than the base of LP (1600'). Coffee Run usually runs into trouble before Stein's itself. I'd rather sacrifice a little in terms of spring bumps duration in order to get a nice, interesting cruiser in Lower Rim Run - sure beats a flat run out in Coffee Run. Obviously snowmaking commitment/budget is a huge factor. But I think we have to assume that's a constant here as between LP and ME. With superior elevation and aspect, ME would win out. How many times have you looked at the Monroe Skyline while coming across a muddy Roxbury Gap in the Spring to see upper mtn at ME bathed in snow while LP is mostly melted out? Given that the top of Stein's is lower than Glen House, elevation is a pretty big factor in this case, IMHO.=Quote]

angler
01-09-2015, 01:46 PM
I remember maybe 6 years back or so on an early weekend in the season where they had Spring Fling open early and were blasting it with guns. Just carpeting it and doing a good job of it with good quality stuff. There wasn't much else open, or at least much else that was good, so we cycled that thing all day. It bumped up really nice and had some great lines in it. It may not have the steepness of Steins, but it was still a fantastic run. Haven't seen it like that since, but to be fair I don't ski it very often so it may well have been just as good since.

Anyways I think of it every now and again as a spring skiing option for this reason. Oh and the fact its called SPRING fling. I mean if it was called mid-january fling I wouldn't give it another thought. So maybe just make it a signature trail, put the guns on it and upper snowball from December to Feb and don't turn them off. Pile snow up on it 5 stories high and we'll be skiing into August baby!

Spring fling is a great run in the spring time. Bumps up nicely with great views and sun!

Tin Woodsman
01-09-2015, 02:45 PM
Tin, I don't thing you understand what I am saying. The Temperature and/or elevation will not make any difference if they turned on the guns on steins, or Spring Fling or ever snowball and ran them for say two weeks. the snow depth would be like 20 feet deep. Nothing is going to melt that. That is what they do on Super star and White Heat to make them last til June. It has absolutely nothing to do with Aspect or elevation. Have you seen this operation before? Also Steins has the same aspect as Mt. Ellen by the way. North by Northeast.

I think I understood what you're saying - I just disagree. As you pointed out, aspect is pretty much the same. Given the same amount of snowmaking time (assuming they blow equal hours/gallons/whatever at either venue), the much higher elevation of FIS/Rim Run vs. Steins/Coffee Run will result in the oppty for a materially longer season.

I think we both agree that if they made a bigger commitment to a late Spring with a longer snowmaking run, then they'd gain an extra few weeks wherever they choose to focus Spring ops. I'm just saying that those extra few weeks would run later on the calendar if the venue was ME vs LP due to elevation.

Dblshot
01-09-2015, 04:05 PM
They don't want to go later in the season, let Killington have it. No money to be made, in fact it's a loss. I have come around on the Steins spring run especially with a lower VH lift, that will make the Gatehouse facilities they want and are using much convenient.

Tin Woodsman
01-09-2015, 04:27 PM
They don't want to go later in the season, let Killington have it. No money to be made, in fact it's a loss. I have come around on the Steins spring run especially with a lower VH lift, that will make the Gatehouse facilities they want and are using much convenient.

This is probably the right way to think about it. While I remain convinced that ME could offer a materially longer season, the better question is whether that's even the right goal (I think we all agree it's just not happening either way). If the goal is just to go "late enough" so as to be in the conversation with the last handful of resorts in early May, then the new VH lift definitely offers opportunities to make that a better experience.

If the goal were to one day switch to being "last man standing", then I remain convinced that ME is the way to go.

HowieT2
01-09-2015, 06:19 PM
They don't want to go later in the season, let Killington have it. No money to be made, in fact it's a loss. I have come around on the Steins spring run especially with a lower VH lift, that will make the Gatehouse facilities they want and are using much convenient.

Exactly.

Orca
01-09-2015, 08:34 PM
Lots of viewpoints to this thread named "New VH lift" and no one seems to think it is a bad idea. Consensus! Skimrv says new VH lift is a good thing!

win
01-10-2015, 01:44 PM
Good because we are moving forward.

Tin Woodsman
01-10-2015, 06:10 PM
Good because we are moving forward.

Woo hoo!

Orca
01-11-2015, 09:21 AM
I have heard that the VH replacement is to be a fixed-grip quad. Is there any thought that the length of the lift is at the outer limit of today's design guidelines for length in sojourn time? The new lift would be about 3700 feet in length, which at a 400 foot/sec conventional fixed-grip rope speed would result in a sojourn time of about 9 minutes 15 seconds. This compares to Super Bravo with a length of 5650 feet with a sojourn time of less than 6 minutes. My concerns are that (1) 9+ minutes is very much on the long side by today's standards (especially on cold days) and (2) that people will really notice the difference between Super Bravo at 6 minutes and not consider the new VH as an attractive alternative to Super Bravo (much as happens now). Since new ski lifts are for forever (never mind diamonds), does it make sense that this new lift should be a detachable that runs a more desirable rope speed?

Benski
01-11-2015, 09:43 AM
According to the sugarbush app the valley house is 7.3 minuets vs. 6.3 on the bravo. I doubt the new lift will have a longer ride time. They should make it faster than most fixed grips since those who can't handle it can go to the bravo.

Orca
01-11-2015, 10:09 AM
According to the sugarbush app the valley house is 7.3 minuets vs. 6.3 on the bravo. I doubt the new lift will have a longer ride time. They should make it faster than most fixed grips since those who can't handle it can go to the bravo.

Do me a favor and actually time VH (I am not there today). I think there is very little chance 7.3 minutes is an accurate number. More like 9. Math doesn't lie.

Also, they can't make the new VH a much faster fixed-grip than normal else it is a hazard to load (unless a loading carpet is installed) . This is a lift from the bottom that services Snowball and Spring Fling, so the lift must be compatible with novices.

southvillager
01-11-2015, 12:21 PM
I have heard that the VH replacement is to be a fixed-grip quad. Is there any thought that the length of the lift is at the outer limit of today's design guidelines for length in sojourn time? The new lift would be about 3700 feet in length, which at a 400 foot/sec conventional fixed-grip rope speed would result in a sojourn time of about 9 minutes 15 seconds. This compares to Super Bravo with a length of 5650 feet with a sojourn time of less than 6 minutes. My concerns are that (1) 9+ minutes is very much on the long side by today's standards (especially on cold days) and (2) that people will really notice the difference between Super Bravo at 6 minutes and not consider the new VH as an attractive alternative to Super Bravo (much as happens now). Since new ski lifts are for forever (never mind diamonds), does it make sense that this new lift should be a detachable that runs a more desirable rope speed?

In a previous discussion it was mentioned that the new VH quad would shorten the ride by quite a lot. Newer fixed grips are faster, aren't they?

I don't mind the ride on the existing double, it doesn't feel long to me. And I don't get as cold on it, maybe since it is slow and low there is less wind chill. I always consider the trade-off, would I rather sit on the longer ride on the double or stand in a longer line for Bravo. I usually choose to sit. If you are headed to Snowball or Steins and choose Bravo, you must add the time of the journey across the traverse, and then deal with the "icy funnel of death" at the end of the traverse. Sorry, my mistake, it is the "packed powder fun zone".

southvillager
01-11-2015, 12:32 PM
Also, they can't make the new VH a much faster fixed-grip than normal else it is a hazard to load (unless a loading carpet is installed) . This is a lift from the bottom that services Snowball and Spring Fling, so the lift must be compatible with novices.

Yes and no. That part of the mountain has no greens. Snowball,Spring Fling, and Racers edge are blues. Gatehouse or Village double are currently the options for greens. So a new quad could load at a speed like Heavens Gate.

pinnoke
01-11-2015, 02:52 PM
I like the idea of the 'slower' fixed grip vs. high-speed detachable. I prefer the least number of skiers descending the same runs I'm looking to enjoy...with the most elbow room possible. It's purer, and it's safer.

Benski
01-11-2015, 03:01 PM
I like the idea of the 'slower' fixed grip vs. high-speed detachable. I prefer the least number of skiers descending the same runs I'm looking to enjoy...with the most elbow room possible.

a fixed grip quad has the same capacity as an high speed quad. I don't think there is enough room for a detachable grip.

Tin Woodsman
01-11-2015, 04:45 PM
The current VH double runs at quite a bit slower rate than the current state of the art for a fixed grip lift. Win has previously stated that ride time would be cut with the new lift by something like 30% (?). Wouldn't be surprised if it's running at 350-400 fpm whereas the new lift will be 450-500 fpm.

HowieT2
01-11-2015, 06:54 PM
I have heard that the VH replacement is to be a fixed-grip quad. Is there any thought that the length of the lift is at the outer limit of today's design guidelines for length in sojourn time? The new lift would be about 3700 feet in length, which at a 400 foot/sec conventional fixed-grip rope speed would result in a sojourn time of about 9 minutes 15 seconds. This compares to Super Bravo with a length of 5650 feet with a sojourn time of less than 6 minutes. My concerns are that (1) 9+ minutes is very much on the long side by today's standards (especially on cold days) and (2) that people will really notice the difference between Super Bravo at 6 minutes and not consider the new VH as an attractive alternative to Super Bravo (much as happens now). Since new ski lifts are for forever (never mind diamonds), does it make sense that this new lift should be a detachable that runs a more desirable rope speed?

I see what you're saying, but my understanding is that the new lift will be more than twice as fast as the existing one.

Orca
01-11-2015, 10:46 PM
I see what you're saying, but my understanding is that the new lift will be more than twice as fast as the existing one.

No. The rope speed cannot be twice as fast. The limit is not the motor, but rather the speed of the chair at loading. For reference, detachable chairs run at up to 5 meters per second. Fixed grips run at up to 2.8 meters per second with a loading carpet and more like 2 meters per second without.

Benski is correct that fixed-grip and detachable quads have approximately the same uphill capacity. The capacity is not determined by the rope speed, but rather the loading frequency (period between chairs). Both fixed and detachable chairs with minimum chair spacing have a chair loading interval of about 6 seconds, which is why they have the same uphill capacity.

Hawk
01-12-2015, 07:50 AM
Not entirely true. You could take reverse traverse to lower jester and that would be an entirely Green run. Not the best way to go but it is green.


Yes and no. That part of the mountain has no greens. Snowball,Spring Fling, and Racers edge are blues. Gatehouse or Village double are currently the options for greens. So a new quad could load at a speed like Heavens Gate.

Benski
01-12-2015, 08:14 AM
Not entirely true. You could take reverse traverse to lower jester and that would be an entirely Green run. Not the best way to go but it is green.

Lower jester is blue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hawk
01-12-2015, 08:24 AM
Tin is right. If you look around the industry and based on the attached link, fixed grip quads run anywhere around 450 to 550 FPM. I found a couple of places that state the length of the current Valley House is 4953 ft. So if you add an additional 200 ft +/- for the new lift length that is 5153 divided by 550 FPM you get about 9min and 22 sec of ride time if my math is right. I would bet the new lift will not be all that much faster in duration than the old one because of the added length. Either way I like the fixed grip because it does not get affected by wind and Icing as much as High speed quads.

http://www.skilifts.org/old/vt-sugarbush.html


The current VH double runs at quite a bit slower rate than the current state of the art for a fixed grip lift. Win has previously stated that ride time would be cut with the new lift by something like 30% (?). Wouldn't be surprised if it's running at 350-400 fpm whereas the new lift will be 450-500 fpm.

HowieT2
01-12-2015, 12:59 PM
Tin is right. If you look around the industry and based on the attached link, fixed grip quads run anywhere around 450 to 550 FPM. I found a couple of places that state the length of the current Valley House is 4953 ft. So if you add an additional 200 ft +/- for the new lift length that is 5153 divided by 550 FPM you get about 9min and 22 sec of ride time if my math is right. I would bet the new lift will not be all that much faster in duration than the old one because of the added length. Either way I like the fixed grip because it does not get affected by wind and Icing as much as High speed quads.

http://www.skilifts.org/old/vt-sugarbush.html

the terminus will be below where it is now, so maybe its not quite an additional 200'.

I think the speed for advanced skiers is 400-450fpm.

djd66
01-12-2015, 05:36 PM
I would be much happier with a HSQ,... If it will not change the uphill capacity (which is the reason i thought they would not put one in) it would be a huge Sugarbush Improvement. I dont think wind is much of a factor for that POD - especially if they are bringing the terminus lower.

Tin Woodsman
01-12-2015, 05:56 PM
I would be much happier with a HSQ,... If it will not change the uphill capacity (which is the reason i thought they would not put one in) it would be a huge Sugarbush Improvement. I dont think wind is much of a factor for that POD - especially if they are bringing the terminus lower.

I think Win has mentioned in the past that wind was a consideration for going with a fixed grip. With the VH alignment, it is susceptible to cross winds coming out of the NW and over the ridge above CR. Not sure how much of a factor that would be with a slightly lower terminus and start, but intuitively that seems correct.

I suspect cost was also a major factor - detach would be 3-4x in capital costs plus a lot higher operating cost.

Benski
01-12-2015, 06:44 PM
also there is not much room for the lower terminus so a hsq could make the base two crowded

angler
01-12-2015, 10:26 PM
At the end of the day it's a money issue let's be real here.

Hawk
01-13-2015, 08:10 AM
Really? From reverse traverse down? Would have never figured. Well it should be Green.

Lower jester is blue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Orca
01-13-2015, 08:13 AM
At the end of the day it's a money issue let's be real here.

Totally agree with Angler. It mostly comes down to the cost/value proposition.

My research indicates that loading conveyors are a relatively inexpensive way to alter a fixed-grip in order to (1) reduce transit time and (2) reduce loading errors that cause the rope to be stopped (collaterally increasing safety).

http://www.boston.com/travel/explorene/specials/ski/blog/2011/03/new_loading_sys.html

http://digitool.library.colostate.edu///exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/L2V4bGlicmlzL2R0bC9kM18xL2FwYWNoZV9tZWRpYS8xODMyMT Y=.pdf

http://www.mecatriel.com/en/Products/Loading-Conveyor/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R0wlqPWb08

Hawk
01-13-2015, 08:19 AM
HSQ are much more prone to weather shut downs than Fixed grip. This is a known fact throughout the industry. Wind is a factor but more often ice on the lines impacting the chair spacing and setting off sensors. They are very heavily dependent on electronics and this creates more points of failure. It is true that the fixed grip will cost less but I don't think that was the only determining factor. Besides there is a HSQ that will be right next to this lift that will get you to the same place. You can ride that one.


I would be much happier with a HSQ,... If it will not change the uphill capacity (which is the reason i thought they would not put one in) it would be a huge Sugarbush Improvement. I dont think wind is much of a factor for that POD - especially if they are bringing the terminus lower.

Hawk
01-13-2015, 08:32 AM
I still think it is both a cost and reliability decision. That is a nice paper that dude wrote. I have used these and they do work. One thing that I will add is that I do not believe the reliability claims from listening to my friends at Sunday River. They say if any beginners load the thing they end up wiping out on the carpet because they are not used to the sudden forward motion. Not sure if this is specific to that lift or a widespread problem. I am not sure if many beginners would load that lift as we have previously discussed. If they are going to consider this then now is the time to do it. It would be very economical to do while they are doing the initial construction. It does take some space up and that is at a premium in this location.


Totally agree with Angler. It mostly comes down to the cost/value proposition.

My research indicates that loading conveyors are a relatively inexpensive way to (1) reduce transit time and (2) reduce loading errors that cause the rope to be stopped (collaterally increasing safety).

http://www.boston.com/travel/explorene/specials/ski/blog/2011/03/new_loading_sys.html

http://digitool.library.colostate.edu///exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/L2V4bGlicmlzL2R0bC9kM18xL2FwYWNoZV9tZWRpYS8xODMyMT Y=.pdf

http://www.mecatriel.com/en/Products/Loading-Conveyor/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R0wlqPWb08

win
01-16-2015, 02:46 PM
Good conversations. I haven't really been reading this blog in the past week or so. Thus, I haven't responded to a lot of the comments. I will just summarize what we are doing and why. First we are moving forward with permitting to bring the loading area down to about where the middle of the existing mountain operations building is now. It is within 50 feet of the existing river bank but we have existing buildings there and will have less impermeable surface so we think that is a strong case to get ANR approval. Located there the corral will be sufficiently away from Bravo, so you will not see a cluster. It is fixed rather than HSQ for three reasons. Sure, cost is a factor. But we also want to make sure the uphill capacity doesn't not put too many on those slopes. And yes, fixed grip are more reliable as they do not have all the sophisticated electrical systems that HSQs do. We are planning a conveyor loading belt which will allow us to run the lift around 500 feet per minute which is a lot faster than VH runs today. It will be a noticeable difference. We are locating the top terminal lower so it is less susceptible to wind. We are blasting the ledge on skier right of Valley House Traverse above Stein's to allow skiers to have a much wider trail to ski around top terminal. This will improve that area materially. With eight seats out of the base area, I doubt anyone will complain about lift lines. This is probably all I have to say until after permitting.

Mt St Pipier
01-16-2015, 03:45 PM
Sounds great, and prudent. Conveyor belt a nice touch!

Orca
01-17-2015, 07:27 AM
Good conversations. I haven't really been reading this blog in the past week or so. Thus, I haven't responded to a lot of the comments. I will just summarize what we are doing and why. First we are moving forward with permitting to bring the loading area down to about where the middle of the existing mountain operations building is now. It is within 50 feet of the existing river bank but we have existing buildings there and will have less impermeable surface so we think that is a strong case to get ANR approval. Located there the corral will be sufficiently away from Bravo, so you will not see a cluster. It is fixed rather than HSQ for three reasons. Sure, cost is a factor. But we also want to make sure the uphill capacity doesn't not put too many on those slopes. And yes, fixed grip are more reliable as they do not have all the sophisticated electrical systems that HSQs do. We are planning a conveyor loading belt which will allow us to run the lift around 500 feet per minute which is a lot faster than VH runs today. It will be a noticeable difference. We are locating the top terminal lower so it is less susceptible to wind. We are blasting the ledge on skier right of Valley House Traverse above Stein's to allow skiers to have a much wider trail to ski around top terminal. This will improve that area materially. With eight seats out of the base area, I doubt anyone will complain about lift lines. This is probably all I have to say until after permitting.

Win, that solution sounds perfect. I think it will greatly improve the ski experience.

Go Figure
01-17-2015, 08:18 AM
I guess it would have been helpful as Bravo is down this am to start the first day of MLK weekend, claybrookers hate to walk up the hill to VH for earlyups.

win
01-17-2015, 02:26 PM
Yes, The cold temperatures last night drained the batteries so we made VH the early lift, replaced the batteries and it opened at 8:40am.

Benski
01-17-2015, 03:35 PM
Why does a lift need batteries. Also now whats going on with the north-ridge which shut down at about 9:15 and inverness opened late.

Benski
01-17-2015, 06:31 PM
I would assume the valley house replacement is needed to avoid a catastrophic failure. I would assume that is safe for now but I don't know how much longer it has left.

Go Figure
01-18-2015, 07:49 AM
Why does a lift need batteries. Also now whats going on with the north-ridge which shut down at about 9:15 and inverness opened late.

Auxiliary diesel would need batteries to start. On the other hand one would hope they are on battery tenders to keep them charged. It would also be prudent to use block heaters on all of the auxiliary engines to keep them happy.

Orca
01-19-2015, 02:41 PM
This Sunday was a perfect illustration of the need for the new VH lift. Holiday surges are inevitable and are only exacerbated by occasional lift closures like NL (wind) and NRX (mechanical). It is worth remembering that in those holiday surges (and on any given busy Saturday) there are newcomers to Sugarbush visiting for the first time, each of whom is a potential repeat customer. Those folks may have a great first experience and want to come back or, if things are not good, say "never will I visit that place again." All that translates into made or lost dollars. My concern is that the surge that got a bit unmanageable on Sunday may have turned off some people, maybe permanently.

I am very hopeful that the new VH lift can be installed and put into service for next season. It will be a major upgrade to the lift service out of the base and provide feasible redundancy if, god help us all, Super Bravo quit out. Thank you, Win and Summit Ventures, for pushing the new VH lift forward.

Hawk
01-19-2015, 03:24 PM
Yup all that. Actually Orca, your post is what we all here have been saying for a couple of years now. But I have to say that this weekend was not that bad at all. The lines were manageable. Last year we saw worse so count your blessings. I have a strong fear that a lot of people especially quad pack holders are waiting on the big dump and in a few weeks they will have to start using their investments. Lets hope they all don't come at the same time.

HowieT2
01-19-2015, 09:12 PM
Yup all that. Actually Orca, your post is what we all here have been saying for a couple of years now. But I have to say that this weekend was not that bad at all. The lines were manageable. Last year we saw worse so count your blessings. I have a strong fear that a lot of people especially quad pack holders are waiting on the big dump and in a few weeks they will have to start using their investments. Lets hope they all don't come at the same time.

I wouldn't have noticed if I was on my normal routine, but we had guests, so I had the misfortune of having to take the base quads around 11am yesterday. It was bad.

angler
01-19-2015, 10:54 PM
Yesterday was the only day that the lines were out of control. Rest of weekend was to be expected considering it was MLK weekend. New VH lift should help on these weekends.

southvillager
01-20-2015, 07:05 AM
I skied LP Sunday and Monday, starting around 9AM both days. I never stood in line for long. Except Castlerock, but that is to be expected. Even factoring in that Ellen skiers may have shifted to Lincoln, things were ok by me for a holiday. I saw Win expediting the singles line Sunday morning, maybe some employees were late to work after enjoying the Pats game. The lines on the VH double were very short 90% of the time. As I was approaching Bravo, I was envisioning the new quad loading from a new lower position. If this happens, this will be a really, really good thing. I hope the Mushroom survives the ordeal.

Off topic, but I was most impressed with the snowmaking/grooming conditions on Sunday. The main feeder trails like Snowball and Downspout were skiable well into the day. Lots of loose material to turn on, much less skidding on hardpack. Steins was carve-able. Spring Fling was perfect. Well done Sugarbush.

Orca
01-20-2015, 07:31 AM
A straight line that starts from the existing VH upper terminal and passes just northwest of the existing lower terminal extends down the mountain such that the existing VH lodge and the mushroom can remain intact. The line passes through the facilities building, which it would seem would have to be removed. See the attached image.

186

Hawk
01-20-2015, 07:56 AM
We were looking at the routing on Saturday while waiting for people to come out of VH lodge. They actually have already cut some of the brush back at the skiers left at the bottom of the mall. If the lift lands right on the existing concrete pad at the maintenance building, there should be plenty of room to clear the other buildings and also room for the lift line without severely impacting the Bravo line. I am sure the final solution will be well thought out. ;-)

HowieT2
01-20-2015, 08:12 AM
I got there for first chair yesterday, Monday, and bravo was late to load. The Heavens gate was delayed about a half hour purportedly because the crew was delayed by the bravo delay.
Fwiw- for the record, yesterday was the first day that the early ups pass came into play. Of course the early uppers were stuck waiting with the rest of us plebs.

Dblshot
01-20-2015, 09:26 AM
Will the new VH lift placement mean the Mushroom will actually get used? Can a small bar go in there to deal with the overflow of the Wunderbar? It is structurally unsound now? It is the best viewing area for having drinks on the hill. Disco lights and dancing when it is dark, it will look like a flying saucer.

Hawk
01-20-2015, 10:52 AM
I am a little foggy on the details since it has been a while but I was told that the Mushroom is structurally sound. The issue is all the plumbing was removed from the bar area so it would require some work. Also I think there is an issue pertaining to the number of alcohol licenses that are issued at the Bush since they added Timbers. I think they would need to somehow obtain another to open the Mushroom which is not easy. There is a process. That is my recollection.


Will the new VH lift placement mean the Mushroom will actually get used? Can a small bar go in there to deal with the overflow of the Wunderbar? It is structurally unsound now? It is the best viewing area for having drinks on the hill. Disco lights and dancing when it is dark, it will look like a flying saucer.

win
01-20-2015, 11:45 AM
Mushroom and rest of VH are sound. It is an iconic building so I plan to keep it. to reopen Mushroom we need to drill another well to meet permit conditions. While we have ample water, permit requirement mandates a certain amount per seat. We have identified some possible areas to drill some wells.

random_ski_guy
01-20-2015, 03:33 PM
Mushroom and rest of VH are sound. It is an iconic building so I plan to keep it. to reopen Mushroom we need to drill another well to meet permit conditions. While we have ample water, permit requirement mandates a certain amount per seat. We have identified some possible areas to drill some wells.

Ugh, these rules, many of limited value, seem unending....which is no surprise really ...

A restored and expanded wunderbar could allow the cr pub to be used as more of an extension of the lodge. And wunderbar would be the new home of the adult scene.

Exciting.

A realligned VH will required a wider Mall trail. Bummer.

Benski
01-20-2015, 03:55 PM
A realligned VH will required a wider Mall trail. Bummer.

The mall was widened over the summer and has lost some of its character.

HowieT2
01-20-2015, 07:35 PM
Mushroom and rest of VH are sound. It is an iconic building so I plan to keep it. to reopen Mushroom we need to drill another well to meet permit conditions. While we have ample water, permit requirement mandates a certain amount per seat. We have identified some possible areas to drill some wells.
Any thoughts on doing a little facelift? It's always seemed to me that you could punch out south towards spring fling. New windows facing the slopes, more space, maybe a fireplace. Could be real nice. And it wouldn't seem to be that big a project.

angler
01-20-2015, 09:26 PM
Any thoughts on doing a little facelift? It's always seemed to me that you could punch out south towards spring fling. New windows facing the slopes, more space, maybe a fireplace. Could be real nice. And it wouldn't seem to be that big a project.

+ 1, It would be a nice bookend to the new chair.

Orca
01-21-2015, 08:42 PM
I love Sugarbush, but am very reluctant to bring new folks there on a Saturday. I fear that the lift lines will get out of hand if it is an attractive ski day and that my guests would have a lousy time. Fundamentally I am sort of embarrassed by the inadequacy of the physical plant. It is a terrible thing for a business when its most loyal and ardent patrons shy from bringing new customers into the mix.

The great importance of the new Valley House chair is that it seems likely to change that calculus. That the lift lines will no longer be a thing of shame. I think that the new lift will be a very good thing. I am hopeful that Summit Ventures expedites the plan for the new chair.

win
01-22-2015, 12:51 PM
Orca, We are expediting it. Only are relying on the permit process.

ThinkSno
01-23-2015, 06:02 PM
Skied Mt. Ellen on Thursday for the $30 Thursday special. Was aware of the NRX problems, but found a few more. In addition to the Sunny D being down, at approximately 2:40pm the Inverness quad was closed & shut down. We inquired as to why, and were basically told "because."

win
01-24-2015, 12:56 PM
I answered you under the North Ridge Straight talk post so won't repeat here.