Off-season Improvements Discussion

[ThinkSno]

Just wondering if there are any updates on the promised lift upgrades?

I was reminded of this, seeing the 2014 mountain biking season is underway via the Sugarbush webcam, and remembering these words from Win:

They have identified slightly more than $1 million of mechanical and electrical upgrades to the following lifts: Super Bravo Express Quad, Gate House Express Quad, Heaven's Gate Triple, North Lynx Triple, North Ridge Express Quad, Summit Quad, and Sunshine Double. I have approved all of them. These upgrades should give us the reliability that we all expect.

[HowieT2]

Just wondering if there are any updates on the promised lift upgrades?

I was reminded of this, seeing the 2014 mountain biking season is underway via the Sugarbush webcam, and remembering these words from Win:

They have identified slightly more than $1 million of mechanical and electrical upgrades to the following lifts: Super Bravo Express Quad, Gate House Express Quad, Heaven's Gate Triple, North Lynx Triple, North Ridge Express Quad, Summit Quad, and Sunshine Double. I have approved all of them. These upgrades should give us the reliability that we all expect.

I don't know that any of the upgrade work will be visibly apparent. Its not like they are replacing bull wheels, cables or chairs. Mostly sensors and electronics and things like that.

[HowieT2]

from todays email

In addition to all the capital projects I have mentioned in earlier emails, we are also looking at purchasing a couple of hundred new low-energy snow guns to be placed at both Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen. Once we have finalized everything I will share the details with you. - See more at: http://www.sugarbush.com/blogs/wins-word/summer-activities-are-up-and-running-370?utm_source=ecard&utm_medium=email&utm_content=july2014&utm_campaign=mountain-views#sthash.ngs3DcMy.dpuf

[Tin Woodsman]

Hey all -

I tweaked the title of this thread b/c it looks like it's branching out into other subjects and, with all the posting activity lately, we really need to keep things tidied up. '-)

Anyway, to build on what Howie just added, the list of off-season projects I've seen thus far includes:

- $1MM in extraordinary improvements to the electrical and mechanical innards of HG, Bravo, GH, Sunnyside and NRX
- Permitting of the VH replacement (slated for installation next summer)
- $1MM in snowmaking system upgrades, including new pipe on Snowball/Spring Fling plus some work on the pumps and compressors
- Several hundred new low-e guns for both LP and ME (question is whether this is included in the $1MM mentioned above)

That's a pretty healthy agenda that is at least focused on the most pressing issues. Not sure it will really close the gap to best in class on the snowmaking front, but it's a start.

[Benski]

They have identified slightly more than $1 million of mechanical and electrical upgrades to the following lifts: Super Bravo Express Quad, Gate House Express Quad, Heaven's Gate Triple, North Lynx Triple, North Ridge Express Quad, Summit Quad, and Sunshine Double. I have approved all of them. These upgrades should give us the reliability that we all expect.[/QUOTE]

I think this answers tins question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hawk]

There has been activity around some of the lifts that I have seen on my couple of weekends that I have been up. Not sure exactly what they are doing but Howie is right. It will not exactly be apparent. The results will be the proof. I like the sounds of snowmaking upgrades. Anything will be a welcome site.

[ThinkSno]

Thanks for everyone's input. I know the lift improvements won't be readily seen-- was just hoping someone had the deets.

[ml242]

Are these the same low-e guns that the mountain already has in use?

[Hawk]

That's what I am thinking. They seem to love those new guns. I am not a big fan as you all know.

[Tin Woodsman]

That's what I am thinking. They seem to love those new guns. I am not a big fan as you all know.

Agreed. Would have rather seen them invest in some fan guns on wide trails and high traffic areas, e.g. Spring Fling, Birch, the intersection of OG/Steins/Jester, stretch of downspout above HG into the HG base area and Lower Paradise.

[HowieT2]

Didn't say whether it is the snologics or the hkds, but either way they aren't cheap so they must think it is worth it. And should be an improvement.

[reynescabruner]

Thanks for the updates here guys. Hope this improvement will be visibly apparent soon. ^_^

[Ride Delaware ?]

I'm sure the reason for no new fan guns is strictly related to cost. First, an electric line would need to be installed, and the guns purchased. Second, electricity costs were through the roof from GMP this year, and that would increase that cost even more. Third, I have no idea how difficult it would be to move these guns onto and off of a steep trail like Spring Fling, unless they are mounted, which costs even more.

I know the Low-E guns aren't the preferred snowmaking choice, but unless they boost the air/water capacity, it is the only way they will be able to increase production without going the fan gun route, and even then they would need more water.

I know that snowmaking at Mt. Ellen is restricted to the main routes down, but it would be nice to see Exterminator get a little snow to get it open sooner, unless that pipe is no longer serviceable.

Also, has anybody heard anything on Rice Brook Phase 2? I'm not in a hurry to see it built, but with Phase 1 all but sold out, I figured there would be some move to get Phase 2 started by next summer. I know there's a significant amount of site work necessary (lift relocation notwithstanding), so if we haven't heard of it yet, perhaps it's not happening.

[Hawk]

That is a good question. I have not heard anything concrete on the Rice Brook Phase II or the new VH lift other than they are working on it. Maybe the lift maintenance and the snowmaking was the priority for this year and next year they will move forward. I am sure by October's Owners Meeting there will be plan in place and Win will talk about it.

[vonski]

I believe the reason given a few years back is that the bumps are better without snow making on exterminator. I agree on the upper part but some love for the lower part would be good. Not sure of the condition of the pipe, but I bet there has to be some issues since it has not seen the mice blown out in several years now!

[bill-now]

http://forums.skimrv.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

Pipes are being moved up Spring Fling.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I believe the reason given a few years back is that the bumps are better without snow making on exterminator. I agree on the upper part but some love for the lower part would be good. Not sure of the condition of the pipe, but I bet there has to be some issues since it has not seen the mice blown out in several years now!
There is no doubt that the bumps are better without snowmaking. However, it reaches a point where there is enough natural snow that it doesn't matter if there is a snowmaking base. However, and we see it on cliffs, if your going to put down a snowmaking base, you can't groom it and then leave it ungroomed. The spotty grooming just doesn't work. It just becomes a sheet of ice. 6 inches of snowmaking would open that trail weeks earlier.

[Hawk]

That is a good sign. Nice.

[vonski]

There is no doubt that the bumps are better without snowmaking. However, it reaches a point where there is enough natural snow that it doesn't matter if there is a snowmaking base. However, and we see it on cliffs, if your going to put down a snowmaking base, you can't groom it and then leave it ungroomed. The spotty grooming just doesn't work. It just becomes a sheet of ice. 6 inches of snowmaking would open that trail weeks earlier.

Yes, just a base layer to get things started would be good likely.

[Tin Woodsman]

I'm sure the reason for no new fan guns is strictly related to cost. First, an electric line would need to be installed, and the guns purchased. Second, electricity costs were through the roof from GMP this year, and that would increase that cost even more. Third, I have no idea how difficult it would be to move these guns onto and off of a steep trail like Spring Fling, unless they are mounted, which costs even more.

I know the Low-E guns aren't the preferred snowmaking choice, but unless they boost the air/water capacity, it is the only way they will be able to increase production without going the fan gun route, and even then they would need more water.

I know that snowmaking at Mt. Ellen is restricted to the main routes down, but it would be nice to see Exterminator get a little snow to get it open sooner, unless that pipe is no longer serviceable.

Also, has anybody heard anything on Rice Brook Phase 2? I'm not in a hurry to see it built, but with Phase 1 all but sold out, I figured there would be some move to get Phase 2 started by next summer. I know there's a significant amount of site work necessary (lift relocation notwithstanding), so if we haven't heard of it yet, perhaps it's not happening.
I would submit that while the lack of fan guns is related to cost, it's capital cost that SB is wary of, not operating cost. It takes a LOT less energy to power a fan gun than it does to compress air and get it up the hill. My understanding is that their bottleneck (both systemically and financially) is air, not water. That's why the low-e guns make sense for them. They can increase their output while decreasing the required air. Fan guns take that to a whole other level b/c they create their own air.

Whatever the case, I'm sure they've run the numbers and concluded that fan guns don't work for them. Given the rapid and eager adoption of this technology by their key rivals to the north and south, this decision is puzzling. In our increasingly brief windows of cold weather here, especially those in the early season or after a thaw, you want to be able to pump out the snow as quickly as possible. Given that fans require less set up time (only one set of hoses) and produce a lot more snow, I figured that would be an ideal solution. I suppose the $30K capital cost per unit is the main disincentive.

[HowieT2]

I would submit that while the lack of fan guns is related to cost, it's capital cost that SB is wary of, not operating cost. It takes a LOT less energy to power a fan gun than it does to compress air and get it up the hill. My understanding is that their bottleneck (both systemically and financially) is air, not water. That's why the low-e guns make sense for them. They can increase their output while decreasing the required air. Fan guns take that to a whole other level b/c they create their own air.

Whatever the case, I'm sure they've run the numbers and concluded that fan guns don't work for them. Given the rapid and eager adoption of this technology by their key rivals to the north and south, this decision is puzzling. In our increasingly brief windows of cold weather here, especially those in the early season or after a thaw, you want to be able to pump out the snow as quickly as possible. Given that fans require less set up time (only one set of hoses) and produce a lot more snow, I figured that would be an ideal solution. I suppose the $30K capital cost per unit is the main disincentive.

I think that the snologic guns are pretty pricey also. and per our prior discussions, with the higher efficiency guns already in place, they were maxing out on water, not air. So it may be that they are choosing the high efficiency guns over the fan guns to save on operational costs.

[Hawk]

I think that the snologic guns are pretty pricey also. and per our prior discussions, with the higher efficiency guns already in place, they were maxing out on water, not air. So it may be that they are choosing the high efficiency guns over the fan guns to save on operational costs.

The problem is air. The cost to produce it and the amount they have. The new guns just allowed them to operate more guns because they used less air.

[Tin Woodsman]

I think that the snologic guns are pretty pricey also. and per our prior discussions, with the higher efficiency guns already in place, they were maxing out on water, not air. So it may be that they are choosing the high efficiency guns over the fan guns to save on operational costs.

If this is true, and I think we've got some pretty good local knowledge that says it isn't, SB's decision to replace the old pipe from the reservoir with pipe that was exactly the same size was incredibly baffling and ill-advised.

[Dblshot]

Every snowmaking system's limitation is air. Air is the constant, water is the variable. More air used at warmer temps so less guns can be turned on. The system usually flips around 0-5' and then maxes out on water. The diesel rental compressors helped with capacity early season but that is a cost they cut. Fan guns are very temperamental and cannot be run if there is the slightest wind blowing back towards the gun, it clogs the nozzles and leads to slop. It is cheaper to buy land guns and hoses and run off existing hydrants than installing fan guns and with land based and towers you can work with the wind better. I just wish they would actually move the guns while running and not make ridiculous whales that do not have the time to sit and drain before grooming them out because they are a liability. There is room for another 1 or 2 pumps at the pond and another 5 or 6 at CB-1 if they wanted to increase water capacity so the pipe size is fine. The wise money would be spent on more rental air. The hourly electricity costs are staggering when the system is running.

[Hawk]

I have to agree with most of what Dblshot says. What I disagree with is needing to add pumps for water and needing the diesel rental compressors. They have plenty of water supply and they replaced the pipe from the river to the main pumps at the lower lot. The water pumps and pipe were sized for the expanded system that Les Otten installed and has the ability for expanded operations. So how can we not have enough water when we only blow one trail at a time? When ASC ran the system they blew several trails at a time with old technology guns that used tons of water and air. Also if they just upgraded the compressor plant so that it was modernized and fixed all the leaky air pipes on the main routes on the hill, I am willing to bet they would have enough air to operate the system smoothly and efficiently. The air system is like a huge manifold. They start the system and fill the pipes with pressure. If the pipes leak, the system has to work extra hard just to come up to speed and then maintain as the guns get turned on. This is the real issue and when the temp goes up or the wet bulb changes. The system does not have enough strength to add the need pressure and then the guns get wet. Also I would bet there is some human error involved ie. running to many guns at once or not adjusting properly. So it is my understanding that infrastructure is the key to make the system work better. Not visible, not sexy like new guns and certainly very costly to upgrade. Seeing new pipe on the hill this week is a very good sign to me. I am hopeful that they actually understand the issue and are fixing the problem. The snow is the product and the most important part to a ski area IMO.......oh and the lifts. But that is a different topic. ;-)

[HowieT2]

If this is true, and I think we've got some pretty good local knowledge that says it isn't, SB's decision to replace the old pipe from the reservoir with pipe that was exactly the same size was incredibly baffling and ill-advised.

I'm only going by what Win had said here in the past, which is that they were maxing out on water at about 4000gpm for LP.
with respect to the replacement pipes, perhaps there are legal restrictions on how much water can be pumped from the pond??? because if the issue was the pipes being too small, installing the same size pipes seems silly.

[HowieT2]

Every snowmaking system's limitation is air. Air is the constant, water is the variable. More air used at warmer temps so less guns can be turned on. The system usually flips around 0-5' and then maxes out on water. The diesel rental compressors helped with capacity early season but that is a cost they cut. Fan guns are very temperamental and cannot be run if there is the slightest wind blowing back towards the gun, it clogs the nozzles and leads to slop. It is cheaper to buy land guns and hoses and run off existing hydrants than installing fan guns and with land based and towers you can work with the wind better. I just wish they would actually move the guns while running and not make ridiculous whales that do not have the time to sit and drain before grooming them out because they are a liability. There is room for another 1 or 2 pumps at the pond and another 5 or 6 at CB-1 if they wanted to increase water capacity so the pipe size is fine. The wise money would be spent on more rental air. The hourly electricity costs are staggering when the system is running.

right, the electricity costs are staggering, which explains why they are investing in the new guns, so they can use less electricity for the same amount of snow, and make more snow for the same money.

[Tin Woodsman]

Every snowmaking system's limitation is air. Air is the constant, water is the variable. More air used at warmer temps so less guns can be turned on. The system usually flips around 0-5' and then maxes out on water. The diesel rental compressors helped with capacity early season but that is a cost they cut. Fan guns are very temperamental and cannot be run if there is the slightest wind blowing back towards the gun, it clogs the nozzles and leads to slop. It is cheaper to buy land guns and hoses and run off existing hydrants than installing fan guns and with land based and towers you can work with the wind better. I just wish they would actually move the guns while running and not make ridiculous whales that do not have the time to sit and drain before grooming them out because they are a liability. There is room for another 1 or 2 pumps at the pond and another 5 or 6 at CB-1 if they wanted to increase water capacity so the pipe size is fine. The wise money would be spent on more rental air. The hourly electricity costs are staggering when the system is running.


I have to agree with most of what Dblshot says. What I disagree with is needing to add pumps for water and needing the diesel rental compressors. They have plenty of water supply and they replaced the pipe from the river to the main pumps at the lower lot. The water pumps and pipe were sized for the expanded system that Les Otten installed and has the ability for expanded operations. So how can we not have enough water when we only blow one trail at a time? When ASC ran the system they blew several trails at a time with old technology guns that used tons of water and air. Also if they just upgraded the compressor plant so that it was modernized and fixed all the leaky air pipes on the main routes on the hill, I am willing to bet they would have enough air to operate the system smoothly and efficiently. The air system is like a huge manifold. They start the system and fill the pipes with pressure. If the pipes leak, the system has to work extra hard just to come up to speed and then maintain as the guns get turned on. This is the real issue and when the temp goes up or the wet bulb changes. The system does not have enough strength to add the need pressure and then the guns get wet. Also I would bet there is some human error involved ie. running to many guns at once or not adjusting properly. So it is my understanding that infrastructure is the key to make the system work better. Not visible, not sexy like new guns and certainly very costly to upgrade. Seeing new pipe on the hill this week is a very good sign to me. I am hopeful that they actually understand the issue and are fixing the problem. The snow is the product and the most important part to a ski area IMO.......oh and the lifts. But that is a different topic. ;-)

Now we are cooking with Crisco. This is good stuff. I retract my own ill-advised opinion re: the replacement pipe from the river.

[sglatham]

No news?

[othripper]

http://timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140818/BUSINESS01/708189970/0/SEARCH

[Benski]

http://timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140818/BUSINESS01/708189970/0/SEARCH

You need to pay to view that article.

[djd66]

I just saw this: http://vtdigger.org/2014/08/17/veda-awards-4-3-million-financing-vermont-companies/ $900,000.00 in new snow making guns is awesome. I am surprised this is not more press about this

[HowieT2]

I just saw this: http://vtdigger.org/2014/08/17/veda-awards-4-3-million-financing-vermont-companies/ $900,000.00 in new snow making guns is awesome. I am surprised this is not more press about this

Hmmm. The way I read it, they got a 939k grant and 500k loan to replace 350 guns. That's a lot of guns. Can't hurt.

Query-do they even have 350 old guns operating???

[Hawk]

I am sure if you count up all the guns on every trail on both mountains there is. So these guys took a grant that will increase the efficiency of the current system thus reducing the use of electricity and our carbon foot print. The theory sounds good. I just wonder how good the snow will be that they blow and how much snow they will actually make. I an not a fan of the newer type low-e guns they run but that is well documented. I hope the weather stays cold and it snows a lot. ;-) Again it is a wait and see.

[Benski]

I am sure if you count up all the guns on every trail on both mountains there is. So these guys took a grant that will increase the efficiency of the current system thus reducing the use of electricity and our carbon foot print. The theory sounds good. I just wonder how good the snow will be that they blow and how much snow they will actually make. I an not a fan of the newer type low-e guns they run but that is well documented. I hope the weather stays cold and it snows a lot. ;-) Again it is a wait and see.

They will make more snow because air is the limiting factor in making snow most of the time.

[HowieT2]

ok so in addition to the snowmaking improvements and lift upgrades, they are going to run the HG at 8am on weekends/holidays. That's a welcome improvement and for $500 you can ride the SB earlier than 8. awesome stuff. not sure the $500 is worth it.

[othripper]

From the Times Argus article:

MONTPELIER — Projects at Sugarbush Resort and Caledonia Spirits are among those receiving financing through the Vermont Economic Development Authority announced last week.

In all, VEDA approved $4.3 million in financing for economic development projects totaling $9 million throughout Vermont.

At Sugarbush, VEDA approved a $500,000 commercial energy loan to help the Warren resort take advantage of Efficiency Vermont’s Snow Gun Roundup Program, an initiative to replace around 350 older snow guns with new, more energy efficient models.

VEDA said in a news release that “the equipment upgrade project will significantly reduce Sugarbush’s electricity consumption, improve snowmaking capacity and snow quality, and reduce labor costs.”

The release said it is estimated that new snow guns will reduce the resort’s electricity consumption by almost 2,000 megawatt hours annually.

Say Hawk, are you going to get the early ups ad on?

[Benski]

At least we can all get to ride the lift early.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I'm with Hawk on this one. They can run more guns with the low-E's, but I don't think the quality or production quantity is there despite what the "experts" say. I know the SR-7s use a ton of air, but they can make a ton of snow quickly and they can throw it pretty far across wide trails like Ripcord. That being said, if the lower cost to run means more snowmaking throughout the season, then I'll take that tradeoff.

Opening HG at 8 is awesome news. That should alleviate some of the added early morning stress on the SB, especially on powder days.

Lastly, I hadn't heard it mentioned yet, and I'm way too young for it, but the midweek baby boomer pass for $99 seems like an excellent addition.

[djd66]

For all you tree hugger types - they are going to save 2,000,000 kilowatts of electricity (1,100 tons of carbon) I know i am very happy with the idea of 350 new guns and a more efficient system.

[Benski]

I'm with Hawk on this one. They can run more guns with the low-E's, but I don't think the quality or production quantity is there despite what the "experts" say. I know the SR-7s use a ton of air, but they can make a ton of snow quickly and they can throw it pretty far across wide trails like Ripcord. That being said, if the lower cost to run means more snowmaking throughout the season, then I'll take that tradeoff.


The low e guns use at least half the air to make the same amount of snow. Even if a low e gun produces less snow, combined there should be more snow being made on the mountain.

[Chewbarka]

I believe with the $500 add on, Sugarbush becomes the most expensive seasons pass in all of North America. And if you don't buy in, you can kiss freshies good bye. That blows more then all the snow guns combined.
At least we can all get to ride the lift early.

[Ride Delaware ?]

The low e guns use at least half the air to make the same amount of snow. Even if a low e gun produces less snow, combined there should be more snow being made on the mountain.
I would love to watch a low-E gun duel against an SR-7. No possible way they make the same amount of snow. However, I will agree that the new guns should collectively put more snow out on the mountain using less energy and less $.

[HowieT2]

I believe with the $500 add on, Sugarbush becomes the most expensive seasons pass in all of North America. And if you don't buy in, you can kiss freshies good bye. That blows more then all the snow guns combined.

really? because I was able to get plenty of freshies with the first trackers from claybrook going before me. and werent you one of those complaining that only claybrookers got that opportunity? seems to me they are offering this to address those very complaints.
Frankly, I dont think Im going to do it. its only of any value on weekend/holiday powder days. so how many is that? 5 at best? I think I'd rather do a couple days on the cat and otherwise skin early.

[HowieT2]

I'm with Hawk on this one. They can run more guns with the low-E's, but I don't think the quality or production quantity is there despite what the "experts" say. I know the SR-7s use a ton of air, but they can make a ton of snow quickly and they can throw it pretty far across wide trails like Ripcord. That being said, if the lower cost to run means more snowmaking throughout the season, then I'll take that tradeoff.

Opening HG at 8 is awesome news. That should alleviate some of the added early morning stress on the SB, especially on powder days.

Lastly, I hadn't heard it mentioned yet, and I'm way too young for it, but the midweek baby boomer pass for $99 seems like an excellent addition.

I find it hard to believe that they are spending 1.5m dollars to replace practically all the old guns, with state of the art new technology, and there wont be significant improvements in the snowmaking. c'mon fellas. u wanted to see them spend money on snowmaking, they're spending money on snowmaking. be happy and lets see how it works out. If come MLK weekend the results arent there, then you can start complaining again.

[Chewbarka]

I never complained about Claybrookers, only the Quad Packers. I don't think there were enough Claybrookers to affect the whole mtn. Maybe I overreacted a little, as what are the chances of all 500 add on pass holders being in line with the Claybrookers on a weekend powder day? Hopefully not many, otherwise they will have to rope off a new line for them alone in the morning while we wait for them to track it out. Believe me, I'm super happy about the snow guns and opening HG at 8am. But the thought of not scoring those first freshies because people willing to pay for it... skinning I think is the answer now.
really? because I was able to get plenty of freshies with the first trackers from claybrook going before me. and werent you one of those complaining that only claybrookers got that opportunity? seems to me they are offering this to address those very complaints.
Frankly, I dont think Im going to do it. its only of any value on weekend/holiday powder days. so how many is that? 5 at best? I think I'd rather do a couple days on the cat and otherwise skin early.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I have done a little research on the $500 early morning add on: Assuming a November 22 opening and a May 3rd close, there are a total of 61 days that this would be able to be used. These days are as follows:

4 Weekend Days in November (Thanksgiving is not a blacked out holiday)
6 Weekend Days in December (doesn't include X-Mas)
5 Weekend Days in January (doesn't include MLK)
4 Weekend Days in February (doesn't include President's Day/Vacation Week)
9 Weekend Days in March
8 Weekend Days in April
2 Weekend Days in May

11 Days @ Christmas
3 Days @ MLK
9 Days @ President's Day/Vacation Week

If you get on the SB at 7:30 when it opens, then you could hypothetically get in an average of 3 runs before standard opening at 8. However, if your goal is to get to the top of HG for first tracks when it opens at 8, then one of your runs will need to be used to get there and be in line.

[skimore]

Howie, I hope you are correct. 500 pases, say on given POW weekend day 250 show up, anyone can get 2 runs in in 30 minutes, 3 if you are 1st on. That is 500 skiers down everything served by brovo. Add to this Heavens gate will open at 8, so early ups can get 2 runs in off brovo & still line-up at heavens gate before non-early ups even get on Brovo. So it takes that out of play. I am sure each of us will put together a new play book just will take a little more strategy.

If all 500 show up, don't know what to say.

It will be interesting to see how they manage the line, managing 10- 30 clay brookers is one thing managing another couple hundred??

[Hawk]

Othripper, sounds like you know what I am going to say. Are you baiting me dude. ;-) So what this means is that people who pay $500 extra bucks get the powder on powder days. Now I have heard nothing officially but if that is the case them I call BS on that. Now I have to get up even earlier to skin and poach the goods that I used to get with my pass.


From the Times Argus article:

MONTPELIER — Projects at Sugarbush Resort and Caledonia Spirits are among those receiving financing through the Vermont Economic Development Authority announced last week.

In all, VEDA approved $4.3 million in financing for economic development projects totaling $9 million throughout Vermont.

At Sugarbush, VEDA approved a $500,000 commercial energy loan to help the Warren resort take advantage of Efficiency Vermont’s Snow Gun Roundup Program, an initiative to replace around 350 older snow guns with new, more energy efficient models.

VEDA said in a news release that “the equipment upgrade project will significantly reduce Sugarbush’s electricity consumption, improve snowmaking capacity and snow quality, and reduce labor costs.”

The release said it is estimated that new snow guns will reduce the resort’s electricity consumption by almost 2,000 megawatt hours annually.

Say Hawk, are you going to get the early ups ad on?

[Hawk]

So where are they showing these details Howie?

ok so in addition to the snowmaking improvements and lift upgrades, they are going to run the HG at 8am on weekends/holidays. That's a welcome improvement and for $500 you can ride the SB earlier than 8. awesome stuff. not sure the $500 is worth it.

[Ride Delaware ?]

So where are they showing these details Howie?

It was in a Sugarbush email update, but it is also on the website under add-ons in the Season Pass section.

[HowieT2]

Howie, I hope you are correct. 500 pases, say on given POW weekend day 250 show up, anyone can get 2 runs in in 30 minutes, 3 if you are 1st on. That is 500 skiers down everything served by brovo. Add to this Heavens gate will open at 8, so early ups can get 2 runs in off brovo & still line-up at heavens gate before non-early ups even get on Brovo. So it takes that out of play. I am sure each of us will put together a new play book just will take a little more strategy.

If all 500 show up, don't know what to say.

It will be interesting to see how they manage the line, managing 10- 30 clay brookers is one thing managing another couple hundred??

now that I think about, I will need a new strategy.

over the last decade I have been on line for first chair on pretty close to all the weekend/holiday powder days. before the SB starts spinning at 8 there are probably around 100 skiers there, at most (thats 25 chairs so I may be overestimating) and that includes day ticketers and others not eligible (dont think the 420s are eligible) for this new early pass. So I doubt there are going to be 250 people there for this early service. they may sell 500 of these passes, but I dont think the utilization rate is going to be 50% on any given day. I'm just thinking off the top of my head but I'd guess it will be less than 100, probably closer to 50. what do you guys think?

[HowieT2]

I never complained about Claybrookers, only the Quad Packers. I don't think there were enough Claybrookers to affect the whole mtn. Maybe I overreacted a little, as what are the chances of all 500 add on pass holders being in line with the Claybrookers on a weekend powder day? Hopefully not many, otherwise they will have to rope off a new line for them alone in the morning while we wait for them to track it out. Believe me, I'm super happy about the snow guns and opening HG at 8am. But the thought of not scoring those first freshies because people willing to pay for it... skinning I think is the answer now.

skinning and mellon are options. there are plenty of claybrookers, but very few are getting out at 7:30 for first tracks. I suspect we will see something similar of the 500 people who pay for this pass, although they are buying it specifically for this purpose, but still.

[HowieT2]

I have done a little research on the $500 early morning add on: Assuming a November 22 opening and a May 3rd close, there are a total of 61 days that this would be able to be used. These days are as follows:

4 Weekend Days in November (Thanksgiving is not a blacked out holiday)
6 Weekend Days in December (doesn't include X-Mas)
5 Weekend Days in January (doesn't include MLK)
4 Weekend Days in February (doesn't include President's Day/Vacation Week)
9 Weekend Days in March
8 Weekend Days in April
2 Weekend Days in May

11 Days @ Christmas
3 Days @ MLK
9 Days @ President's Day/Vacation Week

If you get on the SB at 7:30 when it opens, then you could hypothetically get in an average of 3 runs before standard opening at 8. However, if your goal is to get to the top of HG for first tracks when it opens at 8, then one of your runs will need to be used to get there and be in line.

the only reason to use this is when there is fresh powder. I have been averaging 8-10 powder days a year, but they arent all on weekends/holidays and some are days that are a surprise. so i think we are talking about 5 days a season.

[Ride Delaware ?]

the only reason to use this is when there is fresh powder. I have been averaging 8-10 powder days a year, but they arent all on weekends/holidays and some are days that are a surprise. so i think we are talking about 5 days a season.
I was just stating the overall usability of the pass. I also believe that it will mostly be used on powder days.

Does anyone happen to know how many weekend/holiday powder days there were last year? I'm sure somebody has to be nerdy enough to keep that info somewhere.

[Benski]

now that I think about, I will need a new strategy.

over the last decade I have been on line for first chair on pretty close to all the weekend/holiday powder days. before the SB starts spinning at 8 there are probably around 100 skiers there, at most (thats 25 chairs so I may be overestimating) and that includes day ticketers and others not eligible (dont think the 420s are eligible) for this new early pass. So I doubt there are going to be 250 people there for this early service. they may sell 500 of these passes, but I dont think the utilization rate is going to be 50% on any given day. I'm just thinking off the top of my head but I'd guess it will be less than 100, probably closer to 50. what do you guys think?

I think you needed a new strategy already. you could easily get on the lift 20 chairs earlier.

[WWF-VT]

the only reason to use this is when there is fresh powder. I have been averaging 8-10 powder days a year, but they arent all on weekends/holidays and some are days that are a surprise. so i think we are talking about 5 days a season.

I paid $1049 for my All Mountain 7 pass in the spring and thinks it's crazy to spend another $500 for the "Early-Ups Add-On ". I can get fresh tracks and hardly a line almost any day of the week on the GMX at Mt Ellen.

[ReefBum]

Should be interesting to see how the $500 add on will change the lift line dynamics....it will draw more people in so there will be more pressure on the normally thinner SB lines the first half of the morning 8-930 vs the latter part of the morning

[djd66]

how many people are actually out on the slopes at 730?

[Ride Delaware ?]

Depends on conditions. I've seen weekends where there's just a handful waiting for groomed corduroy and I've seen hundreds waiting for fresh pow like last year before X-Mas when HG was having issues.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Personally, I'll take the 10 minute drive over to ME and sleep in a little longer.

[gostan]

Any word on whether Four Packs will be back this season? The weekday Boomers Pass for $99.00 is a welcome addition.

[Hawk]

For me it is just the principal of the whole thing. I now have to pay an extra $500 for the privilege. No I don't think so. That is not worth it to me. I will just skin and the rules about that are irrelevant. I thumb my nose at them. HA!

Howie, I too can get all the power I want by heading for the woods and tracking up places that I would save for later in the day. Sure I get my fill just like you. But only as little as a few years ago I would be in line at like at 7:20 - 7:30 and it would be me, Terri, Wolfie, a few instructors, you and your gang, Ben and his gang and maybe 10 others. And we would choose a run like Mall, Steins, Domino, Twist and their might be what, 1 or 2 sets of patroller tracks at most. For the last 4 or 5 years every trail is totally tracked and my first run is always, Christmas Tree or Eden or some woods run. I guess I just miss getting Mall with snow going over my head. I guess powder rage is in full effect. Now a days there is like a minimum of 200 at 8:00 chomping at the bit. The claybrook and friends of important people group at 7:30 is about 30 to 40 people on most powder days. I have been there and this is not a guess. Fact! I give up. I am not fighting it I am just going to ignore them and do what is right. Take it myself.

[angler]

Class warfare strikes in warren vt

[sglatham]

I am torn. As a businessman, I can understand the desire to generate more revenue with literally no incremental cost. Yet as someone who "Takes the road less traveled" (I have a pass at Magic) I find the escalating costs and special deals for those with money (and I have the money) to be unsettling. On the other hand, if you're a local, and as this applies to WE/Hol, and only to Super Bravo, you have plenty of opportunity for powder. Also, I understand this doesn't apply to ME, which on a WE/Hol is where I want to be anyhow (Road less traveled!). So locals are not missing that much in the grand scheme. But I do not like the "Elitist" overtones this creates.

Actually, the guy who loses is the middle/upper middle class family guy, who can only visit on WE/Hol, skis at Lincoln Peak for the lodging, kids programs, etc. He can't justify a pass, much less the added $500. He has limited solo ski time due to the family obligations, and doesn't know all the stashes, etc. This is the guy who, after dealing with all the above, and being lucky enough to be there on a powder day, finally gets out at 8 or 8:30, and the mountain is skied off?? This guy probably goes elsewhere next time. Isn't this the core demographic that Sugarbush wants?

[gostan]

I can afford it, but I see no reason to sign on. The MT. Has the right to whatever pricing and promotions it wants to put out there, but this appears to me to be setting a bad precedent. I would rather spend the $$ driving up midweek for some less crowded full powder days. And, I am just going to be real happy to be skiing this season after missing last season.

[Ride Delaware ?]

On the flip side, and honestly, I'm just being the devils advocate, but isn't this really a different pass variation? They sell plenty of weekday passes at a cheaper value, then there is a "weekend" add-on if you want to look at it that way. I know many of you won't see it that way, but at it's base level, that's kind of what it is.

[HowieT2]

For me it is just the principal of the whole thing. I now have to pay an extra $500 for the privilege. No I don't think so. That is not worth it to me. I will just skin and the rules about that are irrelevant. I thumb my nose at them. HA!

Howie, I too can get all the power I want by heading for the woods and tracking up places that I would save for later in the day. Sure I get my fill just like you. But only as little as a few years ago I would be in line at like at 7:20 - 7:30 and it would be me, Terri, Wolfie, a few instructors, you and your gang, Ben and his gang and maybe 10 others. And we would choose a run like Mall, Steins, Domino, Twist and their might be what, 1 or 2 sets of patroller tracks at most. For the last 4 or 5 years every trail is totally tracked and my first run is always, Christmas Tree or Eden or some woods run. I guess I just miss getting Mall with snow going over my head. I guess powder rage is in full effect. Now a days there is like a minimum of 200 at 8:00 chomping at the bit. The claybrook and friends of important people group at 7:30 is about 30 to 40 people on most powder days. I have been there and this is not a guess. Fact! I give up. I am not fighting it I am just going to ignore them and do what is right. Take it myself.

I dont disagree. definitely was better for us when there were fewer people there. no doubt. heck, we used to be able to get on line at 7:50 and get amongst the first chairs. no more. didnt yogi berra say "nobody goes there anymore, its too crowded."
but we need to talk offline about strategy especially in light of these new dynamics.
fwiw-I'll be up for labor day weekend if you want to catch up for a ride/beer or whatever.

[HowieT2]

I am torn. As a businessman, I can understand the desire to generate more revenue with literally no incremental cost. Yet as someone who "Takes the road less traveled" (I have a pass at Magic) I find the escalating costs and special deals for those with money (and I have the money) to be unsettling. On the other hand, if you're a local, and as this applies to WE/Hol, and only to Super Bravo, you have plenty of opportunity for powder. Also, I understand this doesn't apply to ME, which on a WE/Hol is where I want to be anyhow (Road less traveled!). So locals are not missing that much in the grand scheme. But I do not like the "Elitist" overtones this creates.

Actually, the guy who loses is the middle/upper middle class family guy, who can only visit on WE/Hol, skis at Lincoln Peak for the lodging, kids programs, etc. He can't justify a pass, much less the added $500. He has limited solo ski time due to the family obligations, and doesn't know all the stashes, etc. This is the guy who, after dealing with all the above, and being lucky enough to be there on a powder day, finally gets out at 8 or 8:30, and the mountain is skied off?? This guy probably goes elsewhere next time. Isn't this the core demographic that Sugarbush wants?

agreed. But like we've talked about before, this is how it is everywhere whether its amusement park VIP lines, airline extras, sporting events etc. At least we know that Win and company arent doing this to put some extra cash in their pocket but putting the money back into the place. So if they get 250k, that's a significant part of the cost of a new VHquad.

[Hawk]

I will be up from the 25th onward. I will see you then. Bring your mountain bike.

I dont disagree. definitely was better for us when there were fewer people there. no doubt. heck, we used to be able to get on line at 7:50 and get amongst the first chairs. no more. didnt yogi berra say "nobody goes there anymore, its too crowded."
but we need to talk offline about strategy especially in light of these new dynamics.
fwiw-I'll be up for labor day weekend if you want to catch up for a ride/beer or whatever.

[WWF-VT]

Let's hope that the same people that spend $500 to get on the mountain a half hour early on the few weekend/holiday powder days are also kind enough to get out there at 7:30 on the more frequent days when everything is frozen and you need traffic to break up the crust so that you can get an edge.

[WWF-VT]

If you get on the SB at 7:30 when it opens, then you could hypothetically get in an average of 3 runs before standard opening at 8. However, if your goal is to get to the top of HG for first tracks when it opens at 8, then one of your runs will need to be used to get there and be in line.

You are being optimistic that the HG chair actually opens at 8. Windholds, icing, mechanical and other issues have that chair frequently on a delayed opening.

[djd66]

Its great to see the board coming back to life after listening to crickets all summer! Its also funny to see the same people wining about the same BS.

Is it elitist for FedEx to charge extra for AM delivery? How about box seats at any event? How about first class in an airplane? What about small, medium and large - why should you pay more for a large??? Hell - why do they even charge anyone to ride the lift - it should be free! This is America, this is not Cuba.

I would not pay the extra $500,... but hey - if they can sell them and increase revenue - they absolutely should. If you want to buy one great,... enjoy yourself at 7:00 in the morning while i'm still in bed.

If you are that unhappy about getting "first tracks" on a powder-day - well, I think you sound like one unhappy person.

[Benski]

You are being optimistic that the HG chair actually opens at 8. Windholds, icing, mechanical and other issues have that chair frequently on a delayed opening.

I hope this summer they fix whatever the issue was. If the lifts ice up so will the trail so think of it as a warning.

[Hawk]

You are being optimistic that the HG chair actually opens at 8. Windholds, icing, mechanical and other issues have that chair frequently on a delayed opening.
I missed you guys saying that the HG will open at 8. So that also means that the 7:30 people will be in line there first. Sounds like I will be going to Castle Rock and North Linx a lot more. This is going to change my routine completely. Have to adapt to get what I actually came here for. Not a problem.

The other thing that I was thinking about is this. If they are going for a grant that the end result is to use less energy, how are they gong to blow more snow? I would think that they would not increase the amount of snow they make because that would eat into the savings that they are trying to achieve. Right? They will just blow the same amount they usually do or less with all new guns to have the energy savings they want to achieve.

[HowieT2]

I missed you guys saying that the HG will open at 8. So that also means that the 7:30 people will be in line there first. Sounds like I will be going to Castle Rock and North Linx a lot more. This is going to change my routine completely. Have to adapt to get what I actually came here for. Not a problem.

The other thing that I was thinking about is this. If they are going for a grant that the end result is to use less energy, how are they gong to blow more snow? I would think that they would not increase the amount of snow they make because that would eat into the savings that they are trying to achieve. Right? They will just blow the same amount they usually do or less with all new guns to have the energy savings they want to achieve.

I think the point is that the new guns are so much more efficient, that they can make more snow and still be saving significant amounts of energy/money. Whether they actually will make more snow, only time will tell.

But I will say, that all the statements I have read from mtn spokesmen (not just SB but Mt. snow, kton, stowe as they are all getting these new guns) and online say that these new guns will improve the ability to make snow in marginal weather conditions and open terrain quicker. While many skiers here and elsewhere, do not believe that to be the case and in fact believe the opposite to be true. I really have no idea what the truth is. No offense to any of you, but I'd love to read some kind of authoritative discussion of the issue.

[HowieT2]

I missed you guys saying that the HG will open at 8. So that also means that the 7:30 people will be in line there first. Sounds like I will be going to Castle Rock and North Linx a lot more. This is going to change my routine completely. Have to adapt to get what I actually came here for. Not a problem.

The other thing that I was thinking about is this. If they are going for a grant that the end result is to use less energy, how are they gong to blow more snow? I would think that they would not increase the amount of snow they make because that would eat into the savings that they are trying to achieve. Right? They will just blow the same amount they usually do or less with all new guns to have the energy savings they want to achieve.

on balance, we r better off with HG running at 8 even with the early birders getting a jump on it. In the past I would get there at 8:40 and stand around for 20 minutes. Even if I cant get there until 8:20, I'll still be up top a good 45 minutes earlier than before.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Sugarbush is also not shy in announcing that they have a set snowmaking budget each year. They do go over some years, but I don't know how much over. Since they generally budget it based on water consumption, I doubt that the reduced electricity usage will equate to increased snowmaking. It will however help the overall bottom line because I know electricity costs increased substantially last season.

[Benski]

Sugarbush is also not shy in announcing that they have a set snowmaking budget each year. They do go over some years, but I don't know how much over. Since they generally budget it based on water consumption, I doubt that the reduced electricity usage will equate to increased snowmaking. It will however help the overall bottom line because I know electricity costs increased substantially last season.

Although, these improvements would make increasing the amount of snow sugarbush makes more feasible.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Although, these improvements would make increasing the amount of snow sugarbush makes more feasible.
If they gauged it by electric usage or cost then there would definitely be more snow made...

[Hawk]

I sincerely doubt that these new guns are so efficient that they can both reduce the amount of electricity used and let them blow more snow. Remember that they already have a bunch of these guns they have bought in the last few years. They are just upgrading the rest is sounds like. How much of a leap will this actually give them? That sounds like a tall order Unless they have done other things to upgrade the system. The new snow making pipe on Spring Fling sounds like a start. I was told they really needed to fix that.

[Dblshot]

They will still run all the pumps and compressors and use the same amount of electricity. The new guns use less air so hopefully they can run more of them. The main reason that they do not perform well in marginal temps is that since they use less air they cannot throw the water as high into the air which gives the water more time to freeze on the way down to the ground. I agree with RD that the SR guns made great snow, they do use more air than the new guns but if you noticed last year they were running the old Ratnicks at South which use twice as much air as the SR guns. My issue is I wish they would stop making the production snow (slop) in huge piles and turn the water down and tend to the guns to try and make an even spread.

[HowieT2]

They will still run all the pumps and compressors and use the same amount of electricity. The new guns use less air so hopefully they can run more of them. The main reason that they do not perform well in marginal temps is that since they use less air they cannot throw the water as high into the air which gives the water more time to freeze on the way down to the ground. I agree with RD that the SR guns made great snow, they do use more air than the new guns but if you noticed last year they were running the old Ratnicks at South which use twice as much air as the SR guns. My issue is I wish they would stop making the production snow (slop) in huge piles and turn the water down and tend to the guns to try and make an even spread.

If the issue with new guns is how high the spray gets, wouldnt mounting them on poles resolve that???
I've heard others say that the old guns are better in marginal temps because they are lower to the ground. So I dont really know what to believe except what I see as to how quickly trails are opened and of course that is largely dependent on the weather, making comparisons from one season to the next difficult, if not impossible.
From what I understand, the efficiency improvement is derived from the ability to spray the water into finer droplets, so one would think it would freeze/crystallize quicker, no?

[Ride Delaware ?]

I sincerely doubt that these new guns are so efficient that they can both reduce the amount of electricity used and let them blow more snow. Remember that they already have a bunch of these guns they have bought in the last few years. They are just upgrading the rest is sounds like. How much of a leap will this actually give them? That sounds like a tall order Unless they have done other things to upgrade the system. The new snow making pipe on Spring Fling sounds like a start. I was told they really needed to fix that.
I was just basing that off the report that it would save 2,000 mega-watt hours of energy. As I stated before however, the snowmaking is based off water used, so those savings wouldn't translate to more snow necessarily.

[Hawk]

So I was out downhill mountain biking yesterday. I can confirm that all new snow making pipe was installed up Spring fling and snowball with new hydrants. It appears that they will reuse the tower attachments as they were still laying at the locations but not installed yet. It appeared to be the air pipe that was replaced because the water pipe is smaller and looked to be still there. I also saw the boys distributing new guns on lower organgrinder. Things look good up there. It must have been a bitch to get some of the pipe back in the same locations. They actually did not cut out that much tree growth and snaked it through. Some locations were pretty tight.

On a MTB Downhill note.......If you like downhill, the mountain bike maintenance guys have done a great job re-doing Turkey tumble and maintaining the other trails. Everything is rippin fast and the berms are smooth. Now is the time to ride. Also the valley trails are in good shape.

[Benski]

160 it's tuff to see from this photo but I think the mall was widened on skiers left. Am I correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hawk]

Ill check that out tomorrow when I am on the hill. Maybe they are starting the work for the VH lift upgrade? I didn't notice that when I went by on Monday.

[Hawk]

It does not seem like a widening of the Mall trial. More like regular maintance of the trail edge. They did not take down a bunch of large trees but mostly of the brush. It also seems to be mostly below Lexi's They did run a cat or something up the entire length. It looks like they may be working on the towers or something. Just a guess based on the pattern of the tracks.

[Hawk]

The new Sap Line trail opened yesterday. Super fast and the berms are perfectly formed. Nice job guys. All in all the downhill runs are in the best shape of the year.

[HowieT2]

The new Sap Line trail opened yesterday. Super fast and the berms are perfectly formed. Nice job guys. All in all the downhill runs are in the best shape of the year.

Didn't make it to the mtn, but the blueberry lake and camels hump trails are in great shape. Fun weekend of riding. Even got a swim in yesterday.

[arc1]

[QUOTE=Hawk;223728]I missed you guys saying that the HG will open at 8. So that also means that the 7:30 people will be in line there first. Sounds like I will be going to Castle Rock and North Linx a lot more. This is going to change my routine completely. Have to adapt to get what I actually came here for. Not a problem.

Jesus Christ, you're right. So now not only will those powder runs on Mall be gone, having a shot at freshies down Rip or Spills is out the window. A:I feel sick. B: I'll be spending more time surfing in the tropics this winter.
But like I said on a different thread, it just won't matter because the ski gods will be so displeased by this arrogance it'll be 50 all winter anyway.

[Hawk]

Arc1, It does totally suck but I really hope you are wrong. There is more than one way to skin this cat......so to speak. ;-) If the snow gods punish us it will really be a hard winter even for the guys that don't pay to play.

[Hawk]

Ready for snow yet?

[ThinkSno]

*Always*ready*for*snow*

[HowieT2]

*Always*ready*for*snow*

Can't come soon enough. I actually love fall but I'm starting to get antsy for ze snow.

[gostan]

I know that I am going to appreciate the snow this winter more than I have in the past.

[djd66]

Fricken BRING IT ON!!

[Orca]

Just noticed on the SB web site that quad packs are back at $219.

[gostan]

Just noticed on the SB web site that quad packs are back at $219.That is less of an increase than I thought when I posted on 8/25.

Quote Originally Posted by El Bishop View Post
There was a lot of complaining about quad packs and the resulting crowds -- are those gone this year?

I suspect that the Quad Packs will be announced after the next Season Pass deadline of September 10th, but I bet the price increases.to like $240 per QP.

[Ride Delaware ?]

It appears they are also adding VT sales tax which I don't believe was the case before...

Think we will have an early October storm to hike?

[Hawk]

The latest Win's Word talks a great deal about reducing our Carbon footprint. To that end, It sounds like they really think these new guns are going to save them a ton of energy consumption. I think this is a great effort on their part and I hope they reach their goals.

I also hope that they tweek their operations and reduce the amount of wet guns and get rid of those Dr. Seuss looking snow mounds that they create. I would give up on my wish for increased production if they just dialed in the snowmaking on the trails that they do blow snow. Maybe the result of all new guns that are the same type will make for more consistency? I guess we will see.

[ThinkSno]

After reading Win's Word on Sugarbush reducing its carbon footprint, I googled the National Ski Area Association’s Climate Challenge, and found in the 2013 results, what Killington has done in this Challenge. (http://www.nsaa.org/media/185646/2013_Climate_Challenge_Results.pdf).

Killington also mentions the resorts mission statement: "Our mission is to exceed customer expectations, be innovative, profitable and environmentally responsible."

Does anyone know what Sugarbush Resort's mission statement is?

[Dblshot]

I also hope that they tweek their operations and reduce the amount of wet guns and get rid of those Dr. Seuss looking snow mounds that they create. I would give up on my wish for increased production if they just dialed in the snowmaking on the trails that they do blow snow. Maybe the result of all new guns that are the same type will make for more consistency? I guess we will see.[/QUOTE]

100% agree with this. And on the trails where whales are unavoidable (Lower Downspout, Lower Jester) or some get made by accident, let them sit for a few days to dry out before grooming if not a safety issue. The same guns unfortunately will not lead to consistency. That is done by the snowmakers checking each gun and dialing in the water. Hopefully they can hire some more snowmakers and do gun runs every hour that entail closely following the temps, checking quality and moving the gun to prevent whales.

[HowieT2]

I also hope that they tweek their operations and reduce the amount of wet guns and get rid of those Dr. Seuss looking snow mounds that they create. I would give up on my wish for increased production if they just dialed in the snowmaking on the trails that they do blow snow. Maybe the result of all new guns that are the same type will make for more consistency? I guess we will see.

100% agree with this. And on the trails where whales are unavoidable (Lower Downspout, Lower Jester) or some get made by accident, let them sit for a few days to dry out before grooming if not a safety issue. The same guns unfortunately will not lead to consistency. That is done by the snowmakers checking each gun and dialing in the water. Hopefully they can hire some more snowmakers and do gun runs every hour that entail closely following the temps, checking quality and moving the gun to prevent whales.[/QUOTE]

I think they make those whales purposefully. and they do let them sit for a few days to percolate the moisture down before grooming them out.

had a snow dream the other night. another 60 days or so.

[Hawk]

Howie, I am not totally convinced that this process is 100% needed. I know of no other mountain that does this the way that SB does. If they just moved the guns more the snow would spread out and then dry out the same way. They do not have to make huge steep features to dry the snow out. That is all I am saying.

[Hawk]

60 days Howie? More like 30 I would bet. Killington an Sunday River are both banging the Drum. Early season skiing is awesome and an annual rite. You should blow off one of those family sporting weekends and come up. I know of a certain K-Ton - SB Flip-Flopper that would love your company. We have already been summonsed to appear. ;-)

[southvillager]

Howie, I am not totally convinced that this process is 100% needed. I know of no other mountain that does this the way that SB does. If they just moved the guns more the snow would spread out and then dry out the same way. They do not have to make huge steep features to dry the snow out. That is all I am saying.

Exactly. A wet towel laid flat will dry much faster than one rolled up into a ball. The "whale settling period" is unique to Sugarbush. The 10AM-skied-off-boilerplate-dust-on-crust intermediate trail is also unique to Sugarbush. Maybe there is a connection.

I hate the whales. I like to cruise on cruisers. I do not enjoy skidding down frozen whale bellies, dodging hidden surprise piles of ISWVs (intermediate skier whale victims). There is no excuse for monster whales on snowball, hotshot, sleeper, racers edge or any intermediate cruiser. Especially on intermediate day (Saturday)!

[ReefBum]

I guess I am in the minority here, but I like the whales. They are usually on one, maybe two trails and they provide something different early in the season.....they are quirky so I am into the variety they offer when the woods or other bump runs are not in play.

[Benski]

I agree with reefbum. I also think they should let more trails bump up early in the season. If it were up to me I would let lower grinder and spring fling bump up until some natural snow trails open.

[HowieT2]

60 days Howie? More like 30 I would bet. Killington an Sunday River are both banging the Drum. Early season skiing is awesome and an annual rite. You should blow off one of those family sporting weekends and come up. I know of a certain K-Ton - SB Flip-Flopper that would love your company. We have already been summonsed to appear. ;-)

I'm stacked until thanksgiving. So realistically, 60 days for me. If we get lucky and I make some turns before then, well, that's a bonus.
And fwiw-you're flip flopper boy is still sailing away in October. The biking is sublime right now, too.

[HowieT2]

Howie, I am not totally convinced that this process is 100% needed. I know of no other mountain that does this the way that SB does. If they just moved the guns more the snow would spread out and then dry out the same way. They do not have to make huge steep features to dry the snow out. That is all I am saying.

Dunno.

[Hawk]

Just booked at Big Sky. First time going there. F-ing already jacked to ski!!!! Whoo Hoooo.

[Go Figure]

Looks like Tree will be happy this year. We went on a long hike this weekend and found the cat road to slide brook has doubled in width due to clearing and seeding. Not only that but the chutes have been cleaned of deadfall and lots of dead standing trees removed. We can also hear the nonstop, sunup to sundown, as the wife says "sound of angry hornets" trail trimming crew. Most likely the same contractors as last year as the never ending noise is the same.
Thursday will likely be the last day of great foliage as a front is coming in Friday and 60%+ of the leaves will be down by Saturday afternoon. It has been an early year and one of the best with the lack of wind or rain the last 10+ days. Looks like Community Day will be the first weekend of stick season.

[HowieT2]

Looks like Tree will be happy this year. We went on a long hike this weekend and found the cat road to slide brook has doubled in width due to clearing and seeding. Not only that but the chutes have been cleaned of deadfall and lots of dead standing trees removed. We can also hear the nonstop, sunup to sundown, as the wife says "sound of angry hornets" trail trimming crew. Most likely the same contractors as last year as the never ending noise is the same.
Thursday will likely be the last day of great foliage as a front is coming in Friday and 60%+ of the leaves will be down by Saturday afternoon. It has been an early year and one of the best with the lack of wind or rain the last 10+ days. Looks like Community Day will be the first weekend of stick season.


Won't be long before the first flakes fall.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I spent two years in the employ of Sunday River, and I can state for a fact that the goal there is to leave snowmaking piles for a day of drainage before grooming them. Oftentimes this doesn't happen because of the early season race and the desire to open terrain as fast as possible. However, when I was there 3 short years ago, the stated goal was to blow, leave in whales and drain one night, cat track and allow to drain a second night, and then groom the next day. It may not be the industry norm, but that is the stated goal.

Before you go and blast me on this, remember that goals and actuality are two very different things. I can only remember 2-3 times in the two years I was there that this process was followed. Most of the time they would blow snow, open it up to the public, allow it to get chewed up, leave it alone a few days until it was unenjoyable, cat track it a day, then groom it the next.

Please remember that this wasn't the standard for resurfacing and the process also differed depending on the difficulty of the terrain.

[Hawk]

GF are you taking about the main chutes of Slide brook off the cat track for the removal of the dead fall? or just the We saw the widening of the road in while it was happening. One of the workmen said that they were just maintaining the road for easier access and creating better drainage so the road will be more durable. I also noticed another well location went it about halfway up Village run.

[jwt]

Just booked at Big Sky. First time going there. F-ing already jacked to ski!!!! Whoo Hoooo.


BS - if you like steeps - bring the beacon - Big and Little Couloir requires them - patrol shack at gate - didn't want to get a 5 day pass pulled by by-passing - I regret not doing them. Otherwise - it was great and in early March, place was empty - downer was all the north side trees were on the easier slope - Moon-something - but in 5 days of 9-4 we barely covered 20% of the mountain. A client is a local there now - and he took us to stashes that were very steep and deep - don't discount the lower ( skiers right) side - best trees there, and one or two skiers/riders every 50 chairs.

Last - don't miss a half day at Bridger Bowl - a little Alta-type place - if you land by 12:30, you'll be skiing by 1:30

[Hawk]

Good Info JWT. There will be lots of Bush People out there with us. I think we have good intel. Beacon and Back Country gear ....Check. Would love to try Bridger. we are going for 8 days in early March so I hope we can see most of it.