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Chewbarka
01-26-2014, 10:04 PM
I love Sugarbush but as a passholder I am really frustrated. Among other problems that exist at the mtn, Quad Packs are ruining the Sugarbush experience. I know they are wildly popular and good for the bottom line (60,000 x $200 = 12 million dollars at the start of the season) but they do nothing for us loyal pass holders.
Lift lines are out of control, there is no room in the lodge for all these people and the trails are getting worn out early each day. This was not the case prior to Quad Pass sales. What i want to know is when will this money be invested into the mtn? I buy two all mtn 7 passes every year in the spring at the lowest rate i can get and help the mtn by giving them money 6 months before they are used. Thats a $20,000.00 investment i have made into the mountain and i get crap conditions now by people who spend $200. Please tell me there is a plan that will improve my experience. Replacing Valley House is a start but we need much more . A lot more, what is the plan for the next 5 years? Is there one? A great mountain should not have to give away the skiing experience..

angler
01-26-2014, 10:16 PM
+1, would love to hear what the 5 year plan is. One could argue that air for snow making might be more important then a new lift, but the reality is this mountain needs a lot of work. So what is the plan, as season pass owners for 10 plus years as well, we do deserve that don't we????

ahm
01-27-2014, 06:52 AM
The Five Year Plan: Ski it like it is.............

angler
01-27-2014, 07:30 AM
The Five Year Plan: Ski it like it is.............
Agreed, that is why we will leave. Look at Stowes report this morning. Making snow for the spring time, what a novel concept!

Go Figure
01-27-2014, 07:51 AM
The lift that was robbed a North was the summit chair. Northridge was broken and being worked on at the time. You would have thought someone would have used a caliper to check the bearing before ripping a lift apart. Northridge is so decrepit I won't get on it unless the temp is above 20`and the winds are light.
Also the snow report states "Slide Brook Express will not be running, due to conditions in the Basin." but you may have noticed lift mech. snowmobiles at the return terminal. In talking to said lift mechs it was revealed that SBE has not even been inspected this year.

I'll third the Qpac sentiment, giving the mountain away fro $53 has turned Saturday into a sh**show and the mountain is still a ghost town Mon-Friday. I can only handle skiing till 9 or 10 before going home instead of watching the Clay Brook Elitists get two runs while I slog through the maze with the 2nd class citizens. Everyone I have shared a chair with this year[on Sat.] has complained about how long the lines are, poor quality of snowmaking and the lack of good access to the summit.

Don't get me started on how sh**ty the icemaking is at the mountain, did anyone see the new tree destruction on Sleeper? Ice coated trees eveywhere some coated to 60' and toppled over needing to be chainsawed and pitched off the trail.

Plowboy
01-27-2014, 08:21 AM
Not sure I believe they sold 60k Qpac's.. Um that would be 240k skier days....What's their average per year 350k?

One fact I do know, having a relative that was a night snowmaker at ME, all snowmakers at ME were laid off last tues.

Shitty year = shitty talk = shit show

Let It Snow

slaw
01-27-2014, 09:30 AM
What % of Quad packs were purchased by pass holders? Also, I wonder what the redemption of Quad numbers look like vs. last year?

It would be easy for example to find out what the percentages were on this past Saturday with Pass Holders, Quads, and Dailys..... Guess I would like the data before pack up my Condo...

shadyjay
01-27-2014, 01:26 PM
Icemaking? I think that's a little harsh...

I know what you're talking about on Sleeper. Sleeper is a difficult trail to make snow on, with the trees in the trail and how narrow it gets in some spots. Running towers sometimes, the wind can change and blow back on themselves, thus coating the trees on skier's left. The weather in New England can change in 5 minutes... that includes the wind direction. It's not physically possible to be monitoring a trail that has snowmaking running every 5 minutes. We do our gun run, adjust the guns accordingly given the present conditions, then move on. By the time we get back to that trail for the next run (whether it be 30 minutes, an hour, etc), the wind could totally change. On trails like Hot Shot, Birdland, and Lwr Downspout, we have to really monitor snowmaking due to lifts, powerlines, etc. A wind change there could be devastating.

angler
01-27-2014, 02:17 PM
Icemaking? I think that's a little harsh...

I know what you're talking about on Sleeper. Sleeper is a difficult trail to make snow on, with the trees in the trail and how narrow it gets in some spots. Running towers sometimes, the wind can change and blow back on themselves, thus coating the trees on skier's left. The weather in New England can change in 5 minutes... that includes the wind direction. It's not physically possible to be monitoring a trail that has snowmaking running every 5 minutes. We do our gun run, adjust the guns accordingly given the present conditions, then move on. By the time we get back to that trail for the next run (whether it be 30 minutes, an hour, etc), the wind could totally change. On trails like Hot Shot, Birdland, and Lwr Downspout, we have to really monitor snowmaking due to lifts, powerlines, etc. A wind change there could be devastating.

Its not, really. No offense to your efforts but the snow making is bad its more ice then snow. Sorry,

Chewbarka
01-27-2014, 03:37 PM
My gripe is not with the snow making (which I think has been improved this year!) but with the lifts and the overcrowding. I was stuck on the Summit chair twice yesterday for about 10 minutes each time at -18 degrees. Fortunately I was dressed for it. Unfortunately, the best snow I had seen this year were on Black Diamond, Upper FIS and Exterminator and could not access it consistently. Northridge was showing on delay, but I saw them bringing parts to it and knew it would not run all day. I was correct. Doing laps on GMX is a waste of time after the first hour. After second stoppage on Summit, I left for the day around 2:30, frustrated and unsatisfied due to lift issues, again. It wasn't really windy out either. Saturday at LP was a CF. Granted, it was windy and to be expected, but it just seems endless this year. Why do our lifts keep breaking down? The only ski area that I am familiar with having lift issues like this is Magic. At least they have an excuse!

WWF-VT
01-27-2014, 07:44 PM
Where did you get the 60,000 number for Quad Packs ? I had heard that there was about $1 million worth of Quad Packs sold about the same value of For20s passes. I avoid Lincoln Peak on Saturdays especially when the Castlerock, North Lynx and Slidebrook chairs aren't running to help disperse the crowds. The Northridge chair running is critical at Mt Ellen. It's a real PITA to have to take the GMX and Summit chairs to ski Bravo and Exterminator. It's funny that people will bitch about the crowds at Lincoln Peak but won't take a quick drive or the Mad Bus to ski at Mt Ellen.

bumpcrasher
01-27-2014, 08:45 PM
For years, I chose the Bush primarily because of the amazing terrain and lack of crowds during weekends and holidays. There were actually many occassions I thought too few people were there and I want the mountain to do well financially.
Since the $50 lift ticket (aka "the Quad Pack") a normal Saturday sees crowds that were only reserved for the busiest holiday weekends, a few years ago. I agree with WWF-VT, Mt. Ellen is an option. However, almost half the days this season, the North Ridge Chair is broken and North does not ski well without it.
In short, I hope the mountain can strike a better balance as the current situation is tough to get used to.

Benski
01-27-2014, 09:26 PM
I think if the lines at mount Ellen and Lincoln peek were equal then there would not be much of a problem. Also without the woods and limited bump runs people have to take more quick runs causing them to get in line more frequently.

angler
01-27-2014, 11:32 PM
What everyone seems to be missing is the elephant in the room. The issue is the mountain has been neglected for a long time. The snow making needs an overhaul, they need to rent compressors again, the lift system needs to be drastically overhauled, and they need to stop selling quad passes as they do not have the infrastructure on the mountain and in the lodge to handle it. So really its not a great mountain today as we speak!

ahm
01-28-2014, 06:42 AM
Great Mountain translates to great terrain. It does not include the infrastructure to operate it. This season what most are experiencing is the lack of skiing variety which is putting extra pressure on the lift system because it is really only groomer skiing. Without a healthy dose of natural allowing skiers to have greater trail/off trail variety, all of the areas that need significant improvement become all the more obvious: Lift mechanical system and preventative maintenance, snowmaking, quad packs and clay brookers. What it may translate to is skiing different hills in lean snow years and the bush when there is ample natural................maybe everyone should just go with quad packs allowing the freedom to ski elsewhere when the conditions are not prime. For the power snowmaking hills in NE, the terrain is ample, well covered, and most of the "boiler" has been chewed up by groomers. As weather patterns change, power snowmaking hills may be where skiers tend to go. That could force either an upgrade of critical systems at SB or a continued MRG approach to the actual "ski" product.

angler
01-28-2014, 07:54 AM
Great Mountain translates to great terrain. It does not include the infrastructure to operate it. This season what most are experiencing is the lack of skiing variety which is putting extra pressure on the lift system because it is really only groomer skiing. Without a healthy dose of natural allowing skiers to have greater trail/off trail variety, all of the areas that need significant improvement become all the more obvious: Lift mechanical system and preventative maintenance, snowmaking, quad packs and clay brookers. What it may translate to is skiing different hills in lean snow years and the bush when there is ample natural................maybe everyone should just go with quad packs allowing the freedom to ski elsewhere when the conditions are not prime. For the power snowmaking hills in NE, the terrain is ample, well covered, and most of the "boiler" has been chewed up by groomers. As weather patterns change, power snowmaking hills may be where skiers tend to go. That could force either an upgrade of critical systems at SB or a continued MRG approach to the actual "ski" product.

I agree with all the above except your definition of Great Mountain. I don't think you can classify a mountain great if you can't access the terrain. All these other mountains that have been mentioned understand with the changing weather patterns that you can't rely on mother nature to create your own Great Mountain anymore. If you get lots of natural snow it's a bonus. Even though some of us has seen this coming for a while you are spot on this years conditions combined with everything else we have been speaking about has exposed "The Emperor's New Clothes.

ahm
01-28-2014, 09:55 AM
Angler: To ski great terrain you do not need lifts or snowmaking and that is why I defined a great mountain as one with great terrain and specifically did not include the infrastructure. Lifts, snowmaking, grooming are all part of the infrastructure of the ski area. Sugarbush has great terrain, but needs improvement in the areas of infrastructure which is what most on the board are discussing.

As a 65:35 backcountry:lift skier, I do not need the lifts or the snowmaking to go enjoy great terrain. When I am going to lift ski, infrastructure becomes important because I have made the choice to pay to ride up and come down on the ski areas' product. For that reason, I ski SR as I am 40 min from the hill. The terrain is not great by any stretch, but the infrastructure is fantastic: tons of snowmaking, reliable lifts, solid grooming and enough open terrain to spread the crowd even on a normal/high use weekend.

Overall, it has been a tough season in both NE and the US overall. UT is devoid of much snow, PNW was spring like on my trip last week but that made for low avi danger in both the Crystal Sidecountry/backcounty & the Baker backcountry. It looks like CO is starting to shape up while the NE continues to be in a high pressure with not much snow forecasted. Until NE starts to get a bit more love, you might consider pointing your skis in another direction.....................Off to CO for late Feb.

ThinkSno
01-28-2014, 12:14 PM
Since the $50 lift ticket (aka "the Quad Pack") a normal Saturday sees crowds that were only reserved for the busiest holiday weekends, a few years ago. I agree with WWF-VT, Mt. Ellen is an option. However, almost half the days this season, the North Ridge Chair is broken and North does not ski well without it.
In short, I hope the mountain can strike a better balance as the current situation is tough to get used to.

Is there any proof that the crowds are due to the Quad pack, or could the problem be bad snow & summit chairs not running? Here's a couple suggestions either way:

1) Offer a limited amount of discounted weekday lift tickets on Liftopia to spread out the crowds, and lose the quad pack. Why is it that Sugarbush seems to be the only VT mountain not offering lift tickets on that site (excluding learn to ski packages)? Perhaps management needs to know what the number of guest visits will be prior to the start of the season....?

2) Run the snow-cat (used for evening dinners in Allyn's Lodge) to the summits when lifts aren't running due to win-hold.

angler
01-28-2014, 01:46 PM
2) Run the snow-cat (used for evening dinners in Allyn's Lodge) to the summits when lifts aren't running due to win-hold.


very funny, the snow cat is reserved for people who pay to be win-hold friends..........

Orca
01-28-2014, 01:49 PM
Regarding Quad Packs: Before you indict the $50 ski day enabled by the Quad Pack, calculate what you pay on a per ski day basis with your season pass or your ticket strategy. $1200 worth of Quad Packs buys 24 ski days. Is that so different from what pass holders are purchasing?

angler
01-28-2014, 02:04 PM
Regarding Quad Packs: Before you indict the $50 ski day enabled by the Quad Pack, calculate what you pay on a per ski day basis with your season pass or your ticket strategy. $1200 worth of Quad Packs buys 24 ski days. Is that so different from what pass holders are purchasing?

Its very different on many levels.....

gostan
01-28-2014, 02:22 PM
Regarding Quad Packs: Before you indict the $50 ski day enabled by the Quad Pack, calculate what you pay on a per ski day basis with your season pass or your ticket strategy. $1200 worth of Quad Packs buys 24 ski days. Is that so different from what pass holders are purchasing?

Quad Packs are limited to two per customer.

slaw
01-28-2014, 02:44 PM
I bet a good percentage of Quads were bought by pass holders. I did. Many of my friends did as well. I say that not really knowing..... Or if it matters. One thing for sure is the product (relating to lodging, meals, etc) is far different than even 10 years ago and i suspect it will continue to change.

Ride Delaware ?
01-28-2014, 03:17 PM
I understand the argument over renting compressors, but I don't think that fixes the fundamental issue of the snowmaking budget. SB seems to have a very strict snowmaking budget. Air compressors would just mean that they hit those budget numbers quicker.

Hawk
01-28-2014, 03:21 PM
We bought two quad packs for friends and I have 30 days in this year so far as a weekend and vacation person. I'm at $40 a day YAY!!!!

The Quad pack has certaily boosted the numbers. I always ask anybody on the lift with us with a paper ticket if they got a Quad pack. I honestly don't think anybody has anwsered with a no.

pcampbell
01-28-2014, 03:46 PM
2 per person but no restrictions per family, that is to say husband/wife could buy 8 tickets each.

jwt
01-28-2014, 04:47 PM
2 per person but no restrictions per family, that is to say husband/wife could buy 8 tickets each.

PC,

We did that, and we had other friends we told about them too. As season pass holders, I bet we're good for 4-6 Quad pack purchases.

Here's the thing - we haven't used ANY of them yet - not good enough conditions for the guests we have to go out and scrape for $50. we're gambling on Feb/March being great.

We'll end up giving some to friends or my kids friends when they come up, but I bet they have 20% or greater non-used purchases - very much like gift cards- they have a 17% of non-use nation-wide.

So much depends on conditions or worse yet, perceived conditions. As they used to say ( in the 80's anyway) 4-6" in central MA/CT/NY is better for business than none down there and three feet up here. Out of sight , out of mind.

That said, this mountain counts on natural snow. So does MRG to a much greater extend. Those pass-holders understand that, but here, they expect a 'Big Mountain' snow-making experience just like at the Mart, SR, or Mt Snow, etc.

I don't come here for the snow-making - like and appreciate it when they provide it, but like AHM, I come for terrain - skinning or hiking or riding lifts. . . . . ( and yes , I know, i PAY for the lift ride, and grooming, etc) The season is a moment in time and it too shall pass. . . . . . 2 2' dumps and this conversation is toast too.

Orca
01-28-2014, 08:13 PM
Everyone's concept of a Great Mountain is different because each individual places different relative value on their personal evaluation criteria. In a word, it's subjective.

Still, I doubt many people find greatness lately in the mismatch between the number of skiers at the Lincoln base area and the uphill capacity of the Super Bravo and Gate House lifts that has caused such long lines. I doubt many people find greatness in the mechanical failings that have plagued multiple lifts this year. I doubt many find greatness in the comparative lack of capital improvements to the physical plant during the current ownership's tenure.

angler
01-28-2014, 10:15 PM
Everyone's concept of a Great Mountain is different because each individual places different relative value on their personal evaluation criteria. In a word, it's subjective.

Still, I doubt many people find greatness lately in the mismatch between the number of skiers at the Lincoln base area and the uphill capacity of the Super Bravo and Gate House lifts that has caused such long lines. I doubt many people find greatness in the mechanical failings that have plagued multiple lifts this year. I doubt many find greatness in the comparative lack of capital improvements to the physical plant during the current ownership's tenure.
+1, Well said.

sglatham
01-30-2014, 01:46 PM
Wow, I am really surprised at all the issues this year. For reasons that don't include conditions/crowds/lifts I have yet to make it to the 'Bush so I have not experienced the reality. From skiing there for many many years I certainly agree that lifts, snowmaking and terrain have seen limited investment over many years. This is in comparison to Stowe, Killiington etc that have made significant investments, so the gap has grown.

But what is shocking, after years on this blog, is that Win is absent? No comments on some serious issues being discussed by some of the most loyal of Sugarbush fans?! Surprising.

I plan to be up in mid March. I guess I have to hope mother nature delivers...............

angler
01-30-2014, 03:55 PM
Wow, I am really surprised at all the issues this year. For reasons that don't include conditions/crowds/lifts I have yet to make it to the 'Bush so I have not experienced the reality. From skiing there for many many years I certainly agree that lifts, snowmaking and terrain have seen limited investment over many years. This is in comparison to Stowe, Killiington etc that have made significant investments, so the gap has grown.

But what is shocking, after years on this blog, is that Win is absent? No comments on some serious issues being discussed by some of the most loyal of Sugarbush fans?! Surprising.

I plan to be up in mid March. I guess I have to hope mother nature delivers...............

Not much Win can say unless he wants to share the 5 year plan........

beelze
01-31-2014, 10:25 AM
Don't get me started on how sh**ty the icemaking is at the mountain, did anyone see the new tree destruction on Sleeper? Ice coated trees eveywhere some coated to 60' and toppled over needing to be chainsawed and pitched off the trail.

Last week waterfall/hotshot were left for four days while the snow piles "dried out" To further enhance the skier experience this week snow was blown during regular hours around the Mushroom area and base of Steins. The mountain is closed 15 hours a day. Use some freakin common sense and dont subject your customers to a goggle icing as they approach the lift line. The gun on Steins was blowing more into the chair and woods than the ground. Ripcord was also a scoured mess with mini- whales all the way down. And Mt Ellen? well 'its the more natural experience".. yeah ok.

How much of that is $$$ and how much is just illadvised or dumb I don't know but I do know it has been common place the past few years. Heck they are back to blowing on snowboall and spring fling again today - surely there are some other places which could use it not to mention do it at night?

ahm
01-31-2014, 11:08 AM
Maybe it is time for the 2nd Co-op in the Valley.............or just contracting the infrastructure out to the skiers..................

Hawk
01-31-2014, 11:26 AM
I couldn't care less when they blow snow as long as they do. I will take anything at this point.

sglatham
01-31-2014, 01:17 PM
I agree Hawk, they should make more not less. I don't care when. I have no sympathy for whinning about day time snowmaking on open trails.

MntMan4Bush
01-31-2014, 01:56 PM
Well I would agree if the plan was to blow snow 24 hours a day then so long as snow is going to be made then make it all the time. Don't stop on our account. Sadly it is not. If you only plan on blowing for 4? 6? 8 hours? then at night isn't a bad option specifically as it relates to base areas. On trails it is kind of nice having fresh under foot provided its not some wet glop which is unfortunately the norm. I can sympathize with Beelze.

As a suggestion on a day that Killington is turning their mountain into a snow globe how about making a field trip (Snow making team, but specifically the leadership/managers). Buy them some passes and let them have a fun day. No sitting with K-Ton Ops or anything boring. Just skiing in the man made stuff and understanding there is a huge difference. Look I can't tell you much about snow guns apart from which end the snow comes out of. Maybe we have the exact same equipment set on the exact same settings. Who knows. I mean I know they're working hard and doing what they feel is right based off of what they have been trained on.

But as a skier I can tell the difference. Man I'd take the Folgers Tasters Choice Challenge any day and I know I'd come up with Killington's man made snow every time. So why is that? There has to be a reason. Sure quantity is way more, but taking that aside how about quality? Also please don't give me anything about our stuff allows us to stay open longer.

ThinkSno
02-12-2014, 12:09 PM
12 FEB 2014 Win's Word: http://www.sugarbush.com/blogs/wins-word/mid-season-update-340

Hawk
02-12-2014, 02:15 PM
Well we got some detailed answers on the issues and it sounds like they realize they got some problems to work on. I for one am going to relax my critisims and let them work it out for a while. I think that the impending snow and my trip to Jackson Hole next week will improve my attitue for a while. Well at least into March. ;-) See you all this weekend. I got my AT setups tuned and waxed while I was waiting for enough snow to use them. I think Saturday will be a good day for that.

angler
02-12-2014, 05:25 PM
Well we got some detailed answers on the issues and it sounds like they realize they got some problems to work on. I for one am going to relax my critisims and let them work it out for a while. I think that the impending snow and my trip to Jackson Hole next week will improve my attitue for a while. Well at least into March. ;-) See you all this weekend. I got my AT setups tuned and waxed while I was waiting for enough snow to use them. I think Saturday will be a good day for that.

We did get some answers. The disappointing part of the response IMO was the lack of addressing the quad packs, triple packs and quality of snow making. Even when the lifts are running they are not able to keep up with the skier volume. Same goes with the snowmaking as well. The trails are skied off quickly as they become very slick sooner then in the past, in my experience. So again my question is what is the 3- 5 year plan to improve the uphill capacity on the mountain and the ability to make a quality snow that can handle the increase skier volume?
P.S.
Love Jackson one of my favorite mountains and great town..... Have fun!

djd66
02-13-2014, 12:33 AM
We did get some answers. The disappointing part of the response IMO was the lack of addressing the quad packs, triple packs and quality of snow making. Even when the lifts are running they are not able to keep up with the skier volume. Same goes with the snowmaking as well. The trails are skied off quickly as they become very slick sooner then in the past, in my experience. So again my question is what is the 3- 5 year plan to improve the uphill capacity on the mountain and the ability to make a quality snow that can handle the increase skier volume?
P.S.
Love Jackson one of my favorite mountains and great town..... Have fun!


Angler -

Seriously - what is your issue? I cannot imagine switching to another mountain and being so obsessed with the way Win is running Sugarbush. Pretty much every post you have on this board is dumping on the mountain and him personally. This issue and some of the posts on this board have gotten ridiculous and made this board a complete joke.

Quite honestly, they letter he sent out today is what I love about the way he runs his business and what I love about Sugarbush. I have never gotten a letter from the owner of a business like the one he sent out today. Trust me - if Sugarbush were run by a big company - we would never have the access to ownership like we do now.

slaw
02-13-2014, 06:44 AM
Agree with 66. 2 feet on its way today, that should make everybody feel better. I'll be at Sugarbush for sure.

Hawk
02-13-2014, 07:35 AM
Listen. Angler is a little over the top at times but he is not that far off. Make no mistake there are major issues. You guys turning a blind eye to all of it does not help. Win said he was going to fix things and I will give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being. But surface conditions and snowmaking, quad packs and over crowding, lift issues and maintienece are all real and if you choose to just accept it all that is fine. Some of us want more and better.

So yay it is snowing! But next week after a week of vacation crowds and a warm up with possible rain, we will see how people feel.

Sorry I am not part of the "turn a blind eye" crew. But you already knew that.

angler
02-13-2014, 07:45 AM
Angler -

Seriously - what is your issue? I cannot imagine switching to another mountain and being so obsessed with the way Win is running Sugarbush. Pretty much every post you have on this board is dumping on the mountain and him personally. This issue and some of the posts on this board have gotten ridiculous and made this board a complete joke.

Quite honestly, they letter he sent out today is what I love about the way he runs his business and what I love about Sugarbush. I have never gotten a letter from the owner of a business like the one he sent out today. Trust me - if Sugarbush were run by a big company - we would never have the access to ownership like we do now.

I still ski both. I do think it was nice to see him take responsibility for the issues this weekend. With that being said I believe the real issue at hand is the mountain infrastructure can not handle the increase skier visit. Even when the lifts are running fine they can't handle the uphill capacity of all the people. The lift line waits are drastically different then they were before. Also the snow making at the mountain can't handle the increase skier use as well. It gets slicker earlier in the day then before. So I think its great that the mountain is bringing more business in from a revenue perspective, but I also feel like they need to put significant money back into the lifts and snow making to make it a quality experience when there is a lack of natural snow. Before this year I was a pass holder for over 15 years and still love skiing at the mountain. I want the on snow experience to be better then it has been and feel like the main reason its not, is the increase skier visits does not match the improvements needed to give a quality experience.

Hawk
02-13-2014, 08:34 AM
I have had a pass at Sugarbush for 10 years now and I see upwards of 50 days. I do not miss weekends and I ski most vacation days including Christmas and New years week. My perspective comes from sking that many days or even more for 17 years at Sunday River and then swithing to Sugarbush. Yes I switched for the natural snow and Woods Skiing. Things here have been good up until that last couple of years with all the deals and that they have offered coupled with the increased lift stoppages. I have been here and my observations and opinion is supported by experience. I get the feeling that some of the opionions come from people that ski far less and have a smaller sampling size. How many days do you ski? That could drasically change your perception.

bumpcrasher
02-13-2014, 09:22 AM
Not sure if questioning anyone's "ski resume" has to do with their abilities to make a candid observation of the mountain?!?

Angler and Hawk are correct--the Quad Pack has dramatically increased skier visits--especially during the weekends. I truly appreciate Win's recent response and the fact that ownership actually cares about their customers. I do hope they will annouce (at some point) whether they intend to offer the Quad Pack next season as the increase in crowds is the most dramatic change to the Bush I have seen in many years.

Fourwide
02-13-2014, 09:36 AM
You all really see a dramatic increase of skiers on the mountain? I'm generally a weekend skier, and I don't see it. Bravo lines do seem longer, but that can be attributed to other factors, principally the better skiers settling for the lower mountain groomers due to lack of natural snow. I'd like to see the numbers.

ThinkSno
02-13-2014, 09:56 AM
So I think its great that the mountain is bringing more business in from a revenue perspective, but I also feel like they need to put significant money back into the lifts and snow making to make it a quality experience when there is a lack of natural snow. Before this year I was a pass holder for over 15 years and still love skiing at the mountain. I want the on snow experience to be better then it has been and feel like the main reason its not, is the increase skier visits does not match the improvements needed to give a quality experience.

Perhaps once Win's Porsche friends decide to park their new 911's in Claybrook's garage, enough revenue will come in to fund the mountain's infrastructure needs.

Go Figure
02-13-2014, 10:22 AM
The shitshow continues, Bravo stopped for 15 minutes ,running now to offload and currently not loading for 20+ minutes. We were waiting for friends to arrive and now are going to take the gravel road[Castlerock Conection] to get to HG.

MntMan4Bush
02-13-2014, 10:25 AM
I can't for the life of me figure out why they wouldn't offer the quad pack again. Two years ago it got a good response. This year they sold even more. Usually unless something stops selling and you stop making a profit on it you ride that horse until it bucks you. The big revenue generator here is how many did they sell that went unused? The more sold overall the higher the likely hood.

So that's really the heart of what we're all saying here and I don't think Angler has been personal about it or gone too far. Win's letter was nice. In fact it was a lot more detailed than you would have gotten at other mountains for certain. Perhaps some of our ranting here may have even led to it a bit.

However if you are SB 2010 and before with lower skier visits then the snow making, lifts, everything is just fine as it is. You can't expect much and none of us did. Maybe a little snow making grumbling, but it died out and we all understood why. You'd need the revenue flow and without it we had less "goodies", but because of the mountain itself, the terrain, the natural snow, it was a near nirvana. We all jumped in here and praised Win for everything he did. But the man wants to make money (as we all do) and to do that you need more skiers. More tickets sold. More food and beverage sales. All of it.

Now that skier visits are up, our little mountain can't sustain the crowd. Heck we don't even have corrals that go deep enough so you get cluster F's after 50 feet (Not out there with my tape measure so relax). With more skiers you have more wear and tear on lifts. Snow is skied off faster so you have to make more of it and do so consistently. Your cafeteria will get packed so you need to expand that. Sound like any place we know? Well Killington gets a ton of visitors. Obviously more than us, but they handle and manage it because of all the things they do for maintenance of lifts, trails, snow making, etc. I'm not saying I want to go to Killington (Been a pass member here for 10? 12 years? Ticket holder even longer. Worked at SB when I went to college long ago) and I'm not saying that we have as many visits as them, but as we expand our skier volumes we need to take a page from their books on how to support the customers they get. If you don't want that experience then cap the number of passes sold, but I don't see that hapenning.

You want the volume Win? You got it. But you need to be prepared to handle it. The letter was great and thanks. I realize that in a letter posted to all customers you can't say "our snow making sucks and Killingtons is better in quality and quantity." I get it. Bad marketing. But I hope you got the message loud and clear from here and people you hear it from and you're looking into it. Visit Killington when they are making snow and ski on a trail. Tell me if skiing on it is anything like a trail we are making snow on. Or don't tell me, but at least recognize the difference and make a change. (By the way Killington was making snow this week. A novel idea. Snow the week a giant storm is coming)

Your attention to lifts in the letter was also great. Missing was the issues with GH we had a few weeks back (The week SB and GH went down at the same time). You addressed VD in it's update plans. Thank you. How about SBX? When will that be open? 1% downtime? OK you have the numbers. I believe you. What is the industry average in the NE? Does that include the fact that during the summer SB is running so it dilutes the percent? Is it taking into account SBX is not spinning? I know it doesn't account for wind hold so I don't blame for those. It shouldn't, but I've seen some questionable "wind holds" while parts are being tossed out of the wheel house. 1% sounds good, but it's all relative. I want my car to start 100% of the time and it does because I maintain it regularly. It also takes a beating in the NE and driving up to SB every weekend. If my car only started 1% of the time I turned the key I wouldn't be happy with that statistic and would probably look at taking better care of it. If I have issues with it consistently I'd replace it or do larger scale maintenance on it. Sure it would cost money, but if someone paid me to drive them around in it then I'd have to.

In summary it's great Win responded and in the detail he did. A great quality of a leader to take responsibility as he did and own up. We all appreciate that and respect him for it. However if he didn't hear complaints from people (here and elsewhere) who knows if he would have. Meaning how would he know to do so. Our feedback, instead of being fanboys all the time, allows impartial views of user experience. We all want the mountain to be better for our own selfish reasons. We don't care how much it costs someone else. We want our customer experience to be the best it can be and without speaking up it remains the same and we suffer and endure in silence. So maybe a little partial, but with good intent.

I will see what happens before I pass judgement. This season hopefully things will even out with lifts and the worst is behind us. Mother nature will likely bail us out on snow as she always does this time of year. What I will be looking for is next year. Soft man made snow under foot early season and lots of it. Some touching up during the first few months up into January to make sure there is good snow to be had each day. Fewer lift incidents (Some will happen, but that's to be expected and OK). If the skier visits are still up with quad packs that's fine. Make money, but handle it. Expand the corrals. Have more employees directing traffic to make it smoother for those new skiers to the mountain. Maybe cut in some steps up to VD to make it easier to get up there. Ski sherpas that offer to go up to VD to spread the crowd coming in or a snow mobile shuttle up? Make it easier on for families and people not familiar with the mountain to spread out. (SBX open to get to north). Might take some creativity, but if visits are up it needs to be handled. So reserving judgement until then.

Fourwide
02-13-2014, 10:30 AM
"...Expand the corrals. Have more employees directing traffic to make it smoother for those new skiers to the mountain. Maybe cut in some steps up to VD to make it easier to get up there. Ski sherpas that offer to go up to VD to spread the crowd coming in or a snow mobile shuttle up? Make it easier on for families and people not familiar with the mountain to spread out. (SBX open to get to north). Might take some creativity, but if visits are up it needs to be handled. So reserving judgement until then."

Great ideas, MMFB

Dblshot
02-13-2014, 11:32 AM
I agree with Win at least owning up that there was a problem. Good post by MMFB, some good points. Win is in business trying to make money in one of the toughest industries to do so. The Quad Packs are a great idea, I bet most people that are buying them were coming already or people are buying them for friends. Skier visits are up at all resorts. This is not a private club. That being said I take exception to a couple points in Win's email
-1% downtime is a "massaged" number. This does not count in addition to windholds, all the "delayed openings" The lift maintenance dept is extremely inexperienced and it is showing. When does this become a safety issue?
-Snowmaking- Win answered a question about not grooming the piles right away- correct they need to drain. But why make piles in the first place? When they do a gun run it is not hard to move the gun or swing the tower to spread out the snow. On some trails this is not possible, but on the big wide ones spread it out. I agree that the quality of snow being made is way too wet. A little less stick on the sleeve of the jacket would be good. Resurfacing after thaw/freeze events would be nice, but that is not their strategy anymore. They do not have guns and hoses on the trails, they turn off a trail after 3 straight days, strip the guns and hoses off and bring them to a new trail and start up for 3 days again. Look behind the snowmaking building at the stack of hoses and guns sitting there. It would be nice if those were on the hill

Big dump and big crowd on the way so hopefully they can work out the kinks on Bravo, NRX, Summit, mousetraps for HG, and pass inspection on SBX.

angler
02-13-2014, 11:51 AM
My intent is not to be personal at all. I love Sugarbush and it was a hard decision to make another mountain my main one after 15 plus years. This is what happened in my case. Over the past few years I started to feel like the mountain was not getting the infrastructure updates it needed to keep up with the times and the increase volume. It really became exasperated with the lack of natural snow (after all mother nature hides sins in this case) and the advent of the quad pack.
I ski on an average 50 plus times a year. Last year I went to the mountain 10 plus times from opening day to the middle of December. Not a lot of natural snow just man made snow. For the most part only 4 to 6 trails open and after 2 hours or so the trails where ice. So 10 visits and maybe 20 hours of skiing at best. I would go to the gym and friends would be telling me that they were skiing at another mountain all day and the man made snow was holding up most of the day as well as having numerous trails open.

A friend of mine comes up for long weekend mid December. I pick him up on a Thursday morning drive right from the airport to the bush. Get there around 12 or so there is 5 trails open (being generous) and the man made snow is slick already with hardly anyone on the mountain. After 90 minutes of skiing, it was over, trails were ice, time to leave. Friend is very disappointed. Next morning I suggest we go to the "other mountain" that my friends from the gym were speaking about. We get to the mountain there is quadruple the amount to trails open snow making all over the place and the quality of snow is far superior then the snow being made at SB. We are able to ski the entire day. Not that the man made snow did not get slick by the end of the day but even when it finally gave way it sill was not as icy as the snow being made at the Bush. It really was mind blowing, I was in shock! My friend turns to me when we are driving home as says "So please tell me why this is not your home mountain these aren't even close?"

So the rest of the year I went back and forth to both mountains and in my experience the quality of snow, lifts system, amount of snow being made, going back to resurface trails, ability to handle skier volume was far superior to SB. Like other people have pointed out here SB has not kept up with their competition. Its not even close. So I felt like I was put in a position to change my home mountain (not because I wanted to) because I valued quality snow making, lifts that run, and an infrastructure that can handle the stress of skier volume.

Im in no way suggesting that SB hasn't made improvements on the mountain its just not enough compared to their competition that they want to be compared with, as well as their desire to continue to increase the skier visits. So it is nice to hear Win take responsibility for this weekend but thats not the elephant in the room, anyone can make a poor decision about having an event on a weekend. Shit happens sometimes! It's not fair to all the loyal season pass holders as well as the long time ticket holders who get homogenized with quad packs, triple packs, ect ect.... I drove to the mountain for 15 plus years driving 50 minutes and a Clay Brooker gets to ski power before us? Really? No matter how you slice the cake the mountain needs a new lift system, better snow making capacity (a mountain today in this environment needs to be able to create their own mountain and let mother nature be a bonus), expanded lodges, along with an expanded view of the guest experience in every aspect of the operation. One might argue with my form at times but IMO its hard to argue with the substance of my rants. Not sure I can say anything I haven't said in my 40 plus posts so I will take a break after asking one more time what is the 3-5 year plan to fix the obvious. Is that so unreasonable?

Hawk
02-13-2014, 12:31 PM
Not sure if questioning anyone's "ski resume" has to do with their abilities to make a candid observation of the mountain?!?


Sure it does. If you only ski 5 or 10 days and all of them are perfect with no lift issues then your perception is different. Also of you only ski from 8 to noon then your perception is different on conditions. I have been here every weekend and have skied late most days so I have seen these issues from front to back. That was all I was trying to say.

angler
02-13-2014, 01:03 PM
Sure it does. If you only ski 5 or 10 days and all of them are perfect with no lift issues then your perception is different. Also of you only ski from 8 to noon then your perception is different on conditions. I have been here every weekend and have skied late most days so I have seen these issues from front to back. That was all I was trying to say.
Agreed, plus it matters if you get out early season as well....

MntMan4Bush
02-13-2014, 01:23 PM
Well bumpcrasher's resume may actually be detrimental to his opinion. I have never known anyone who blows off his work as much or who ignores his family and friends more during the ski season than him. In fact his lack of work production in normal human society alone may have been the cause for the most recent recession single-handedly. He's a real inspiration to negligence and self servitude everywhere. Early season he runs to Killington and SR. Mid-week trips to SB. Long weekends. 60-80 days a year. Almost as many blown edges as me and happily burning up all the extra fuel all you tree hugging Prius owners are saving to get him there.

Sadly though all of this probably makes his days all blur into one bacon grease coated kaleidoscope of snow and captain and cokes. Thus making his opinion, much like the man himself with anything tool related, useless.

Hawk
02-13-2014, 01:33 PM
Ya but if you subtract all those "Crack-0-noon" club days his total is more like 40. ;-) Also I hear that ping pong has made him stay up late further clouding his judgement.

djd66
02-13-2014, 02:18 PM
Sure it does. If you only ski 5 or 10 days and all of them are perfect with no lift issues then your perception is different. Also of you only ski from 8 to noon then your perception is different on conditions. I have been here every weekend and have skied late most days so I have seen these issues from front to back. That was all I was trying to say.

Easy on the resume BS. Do I need to post my resume before I get any respect on this board?

ReefBum
02-13-2014, 03:47 PM
Perhaps once Win's Porsche friends decide to park their new 911's in Claybrook's garage, enough revenue will come in to fund the mountain's infrastructure needs.
It's unproductive comments like this that have really hurt the integrity of this board. In the past this place has provided some great info, especially from Win but that kind of below the belt comment is not going to motivate him to re-engage.

ThinkSno
02-13-2014, 05:33 PM
It's unproductive comments like this that have really hurt the integrity of this board. In the past this place has provided some great info, especially from Win but that kind of below the belt comment is not going to motivate him to re-engage.

Ridgefield, CT, lighten up.

Go Figure
02-13-2014, 06:58 PM
It's unproductive comments like this that have really hurt the integrity of this board. In the past this place has provided some great info, especially from Win but that kind of below the belt comment is not going to motivate him to re-engage.

My bad, I forgot fanboy praise and bobbleheading every decision made over the last 13 years in the required uniform.

Case in point. I watched the weekly rumble for the first time this year. Opening segment of cabin cat first tracks powder skiing followed by the Porsche Driver piece with info for the clay brook set who can borrow one to drive around for a few hours which was a segway to the rice brook ad for a condo. Must have been riviting for the family packed into a quad pack room at the Sugarbush Inn[motel6].

About as informative as the boring daily videos , which are unwatchable on a daily basis.

Hawk
02-13-2014, 08:42 PM
Easy on the resume BS. Do I need to post my resume before I get any respect on this board?

Your missing the point I guess. Never mind, obviously every thing is fine. Carry on.

angler
02-13-2014, 08:46 PM
Ridgefield, CT, lighten up.

Glad Im not the only one thats in trouble, lol

HowieT2
02-13-2014, 09:49 PM
I am not a fan of the videos either. They're boring.

Anyway, aren't u guys psyched about the snow? Can't wait to drive up tomorrow.

It's not just increased skier visits that were the problem, but that all the natural snow trails and woods were closed. All of us, who would ordinarily be off doing our thing, were lapping groomers and the lifts. More skier r visits r good for the mtn and good for the valley. Would I like to have the place to myself like it used to be 10 years ago? Sure. But, it's not sustainable. Growth is good. With growth, we'll get a new vh quad which will increase capacity tremendously. There will be pains along the way. I fear expanding the vh or whatever they're going to do about lodge capacity, is going to take too long. But I also realize you can't get everything you want right away.
I trust win, Adam and company are trying to do the right thing. They'll make mistakes. They are not some corporation/pe fund looking to milk the place for cash or puff up the numbers for a sale. They are also not Putin or some sheik who can do whatever they dream of doing. So I'll wait for a new lodge (unless I win the lottery, in which case I'll build a lodge, with a big fireplace, nice locker room with a sauna and showers, hot tubs on a deck outside, Lawson's on tap, waitresses..............)

Btw-at golf courses they have girls riding around in carts with beverages, how come we can't get that at the mtn?

djd66
02-13-2014, 10:34 PM
Your missing the point I guess. Never mind, obviously every thing is fine. Carry on.

No, I actually did get your point, you are very proud of your skiing resume and if I don't ski as much as you, I cannot make an accurate judgment of how the place is run,... right?

ReefBum
02-14-2014, 06:44 AM
It's unproductive comments like this that have really hurt the integrity of this board. In the past this place has provided some great info, especially from Win but that kind of below the belt comment is not going to motivate him to re-engage.


My bad, I forgot fanboy praise and bobbleheading every decision made over the last 13 years in the required uniform.

Case in point. I watched the weekly rumble for the first time this year. Opening segment of cabin cat first tracks powder skiing followed by the Porsche Driver piece with info for the clay brook set who can borrow one to drive around for a few hours which was a segway to the rice brook ad for a condo. Must have been riviting for the family packed into a quad pack room at the Sugarbush Inn[motel6].

About as informative as the boring daily videos , which are unwatchable on a daily basis.
You completely missed my point.

ReefBum
02-14-2014, 06:47 AM
Ridgefield, CT, lighten up.
Just making an observation...dude.....I'm sorry it doesn't sync up with your POV.

Time to be positive and focus on the good stuff falling from the ski......

ThinkSno
02-14-2014, 08:27 AM
I am also just making my observations when it comes to poor management decisions like putting an auto event on the mountain during a peak season weekend, which only caters to a very small percentage of visitors, and closes part of the smallest lodge on the hill, where retrospective apologies mean nothing. Didn't hear any mention about skier refunds in that blog either......again, just my observation.

I'm nothing but positive when it comes to Sugarbush-- the ski area. Not sure how long everyone has been around for, but can anyone remember the Jeep King of the Mountain series? Ski races sponsored by Jeep at Sugarbush. Fun for everyone on the hill watching and participating-- and no one was excluded, if my memory serves me correctly. It brought great positive energy to the valley. I've still got my Jeep cowbell.

Go Figure
02-14-2014, 09:37 AM
1.2%

Friday, February 14th - 9:15 AM

*** Village Chair is on windhold, Valley House has delayed opening and Heaven's Gate is on maintenance delay. Hiking will be allowed on Heaven's Gate. ***

North is quiet so far, grabbing the gloves as there is no need for mitts today.

HowieT2
02-14-2014, 12:35 PM
I am also just making my observations when it comes to poor management decisions like putting an auto event on the mountain during a peak season weekend, which only caters to a very small percentage of visitors, and closes part of the smallest lodge on the hill, where retrospective apologies mean nothing. Didn't hear any mention about skier refunds in that blog either......again, just my observation.

I'm nothing but positive when it comes to Sugarbush-- the ski area. Not sure how long everyone has been around for, but can anyone remember the Jeep King of the Mountain series? Ski races sponsored by Jeep at Sugarbush. Fun for everyone on the hill watching and participating-- and no one was excluded, if my memory serves me correctly. It brought great positive energy to the valley. I've still got my Jeep cowbell.

to be fair, the porsche thing was supposed to be on the golf course. Not enough snow so they moved it to mellon. coincidentally, bravo is down so everybody goes over to mellon. so in retrospect it was a mistake having it at mellon, but it wasnt planned for there and if there wasnt the problem with the bravo, it wouldnt have been nearly as big an issue as it was.

whatever, I got to get done in this damned office and hit the road.

pinnoke
02-14-2014, 02:10 PM
to be accurate, the driving event was scheduled for Mt. Ellen from the outset of this season. Admittedly, a mistake, so it's now in the rearview mirror. Keep your eyes focused, now, on what's in front of you!!!!

flakeydog
02-14-2014, 03:07 PM
No, I actually did get your point, you are very proud of your skiing resume and if I don't ski as much as you, I cannot make an accurate judgment of how the place is run,... right?

whoa, slow down there.... at the risk of trying to stimulate productive conversation i think the "skier's resume" is quite important and a valid point. The perception one;s ski experience can vary greatly depending on when and how often they ski. If I ski 5-10 days a year and happen to be on the mountain for 2 of those days last weekend I am going to have a less than favorable view of things if i did not happen to be on the mountain those days. Let me try another angle, weekend warriors may certainly see a different mountain than those that can ski most of there days mid-week, and so on...

The point is that some of us may see the good, some see the bad, many see the ugly but those that ski 50+ days of the year more than likely see all 3 (the good, the bad, and the ugly). Does not make anyone's view any better or worse, just realize that the mountain is seen through many different lenses. I think the ones that can have the most impact on the business side are those that may have seen 20-25% of their season though last weekend's lense...

Benski
02-14-2014, 05:04 PM
1.2%

Friday, February 14th - 9:15 AM

*** Village Chair is on windhold, Valley House has delayed opening and Heaven's Gate is on maintenance delay. Hiking will be allowed on Heaven's Gate. ***

North is quiet so far, grabbing the gloves as there is no need for mitts today.

I don't think valley house was scheduled to open. I have never heard of it opening on a weekday non holiday at the same time as bravo before. Just glad it was open.

shadyjay
02-14-2014, 05:32 PM
I don't think valley house was scheduled to open. I have never heard of it opening on a weekday non holiday at the same time as bravo before. Just glad it was open.

We got the word yesterday that VH would be open, and judging by the lines at Bravo at 8am, it's a good thing it did! Admittedly, it was lower on the priority list this AM as there was a LOT of work to be done to get the regular lifts running. Not to mention, some of our staff had a hard time getting in this morning - we can't all afford valley living. But we did get it open ~ 9:30am and we were pretty steady, but not nearly as mobbed as Bravo. Once HG opened, VH was "walk on".

djd66
02-14-2014, 05:34 PM
whoa, slow down there.... at the risk of trying to stimulate productive conversation i think the "skier's resume" is quite important and a valid point. The perception one;s ski experience can vary greatly depending on when and how often they ski. If I ski 5-10 days a year and happen to be on the mountain for 2 of those days last weekend I am going to have a less than favorable view of things if i did not happen to be on the mountain those days. Let me try another angle, weekend warriors may certainly see a different mountain than those that can ski most of there days mid-week, and so on...

The point is that some of us may see the good, some see the bad, many see the ugly but those that ski 50+ days of the year more than likely see all 3 (the good, the bad, and the ugly). Does not make anyone's view any better or worse, just realize that the mountain is seen through many different lenses. I think the ones that can have the most impact on the business side are those that may have seen 20-25% of their season though last weekend's lense...

I understand what you are saying,.. i also think that there are some people on this board that have a holier than thou attitude about how much they ski and where they ski. I know what i ski and i am confident enough to not have to post it to this board every few days. But,... if you must here it is,....

Ski 40+ days a year, i have 2 kids in blazers and i own property on the mountain. Been skiing for over 40 years, worked full time on the ski patrol at a major resort, raced when i was in HS, skied 1000's of days in my life time,... does that qualify me?

Its the attitude of " you don't know shit because I ski this and I ski here" that motivated me to write my post. I NO financial interest in the mountain at all. (other than owning property) All I hear from this board is bitching about pretty much everything. It is getting rather old to be quite honest.

If I hear one more person say the term "Claybrooker" ,.....- like if you own a place at Claybrook you are a complete ahole???? (i dont own one) Listen, for $125K you can buy a place there + $10K you can buy a used Porsche. Bottom line - they are just condos - most likely that is what the Sugarbush Village was like 40 years ago. I do not get this class warfare BS for the life of me.

chrisinvermont
02-14-2014, 07:00 PM
Bottom line - they are just condos - most likely that is what the Sugarbush Village was like 40 years ago. I do not get this class warfare BS for the life of me.

Not into the "class warfare" but clay brook isn't just a condo. When you get to cut lines, load lifts early, get cabin cat rides, and private tours it's more than just a condo and it is marketed as such. I get it and have no problem with claybrookers. I am a cheap skate that buys a north plus pass every spring when it's the cheapest and only go into the lodge to hit the head so I don't expect that level of service to be extended to me.

I think there has been good conversations on this board on the problems that have become more apparent this year. To discount someone's input simply because they bought a pass somewhere else this year or they only ski a few times isn't right. I would bet that emails sent directly to Win and SB contained far worse than anything mentioned here and i have heard far worse comments in person from people that are upset. The snow making and lifts have been lagging for years and this year just exasperated the situation. I am glad Win has recognized the problems and I hope he is able to do something about it.

These are real problems that the resort faces. I personally know 3 people that didn't buy passes this season and one that did for the first time and regrets it.

Anyways, I'll be in the GMX line first thing tomorrow. Heard from a buddy it was awesome today. Looking forward to an excellent weekend of skiing.

ducky
02-15-2014, 07:38 AM
Remarkably relevant for our little hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35sfp9k5avI

ThinkSno
02-15-2014, 07:57 AM
Remarkably relevant for our little hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35sfp9k5avI

Oh man that was funny! Thanks for posting.

Even better since I will be in UT later this week, and looking forward to a double-double.

angler
02-15-2014, 10:47 AM
If I hear one more person say the term "Claybrooker" ,.....- like if you own a place at Claybrook you are a complete ahole???? (i dont own one) Listen, for $125K you can buy a place there + $10K you can buy a used Porsche. Bottom line - they are just condos - most likely that is what the Sugarbush Village was like 40 years ago. I do not get this class warfare BS for the life of me.

The class warfare BS was started when someone in ownership thought it would be a good idea to give the "ClayBrook people" special privileges to the detrainment of the "pedestrians". What is reasonable about letting people who in your own words "just bought a condo" be able to cut lines, load lifts early, get cabin cat rides, so they can get first tracks in front of everyone else? If that is reasonable then full price season ticket holders should have priority over people who buy them at a discount, or maybe full price ticket buyers should be able to cut in front of quad pack holders. The list could go on and on..... I get the idea of giving a Claybrook holder getting special amenities like discounts around the resort, maybe some social gatherings or other marketing ideas but really they get to ski first or cut in line? By doing this management is saying to every ticket holder and pass holder that their time and experience is not as valuable as a "Claybrook" Someone gets in their car 2 hours before the lifts open to drive in a snow storm for an hour plus, get changed, get in line for first tracks, but no that doesn't get you first tracks because the "Claybrook people are more important because they bought "Just a Condo" never mind the fact that you have been a loyal SB pass holder for 1,5, 10, 15 years or just a ticket holder for one day. That concept is more insulting to the general public then anything that was said on this forum.

Tin Woodsman
02-15-2014, 01:33 PM
The class warfare BS was started when someone in ownership thought it would be a good idea to give the "ClayBrook people" special privileges to the detrainment of the "pedestrians". What is reasonable about letting people who in your own words "just bought a condo" be able to cut lines, load lifts early, get cabin cat rides, so they can get first tracks in front of everyone else? If that is reasonable then full price season ticket holders should have priority over people who buy them at a discount, or maybe full price ticket buyers should be able to cut in front of quad pack holders. The list could go on and on..... I get the idea of giving a Claybrook holder getting special amenities like discounts around the resort, maybe some social gatherings or other marketing ideas but really they get to ski first or cut in line? By doing this management is saying to every ticket holder and pass holder that their time and experience is not as valuable as a "Claybrook" Someone gets in their car 2 hours before the lifts open to drive in a snow storm for an hour plus, get changed, get in line for first tracks, but no that doesn't get you first tracks because the "Claybrook people are more important because they bought "Just a Condo" never mind the fact that you have been a loyal SB pass holder for 1,5, 10, 15 years or just a ticket holder for one day. That concept is more insulting to the general public then anything that was said on this forum.
Do you get bent out of shape that people who pay more money get to sit on the 50 yard line at the football game while you're stuck in the nosebleed seats? If not, then I don't see why you'd be upset about Claybrookers getting special benefits. No matter how long you've skied at SB, it's likely that simply by purchasing a Claybrook share, they've spent more money than you at SB. If that extra benefit is what SB needs to sell out the Claybrook units and to help make ownership of SB sustainable, then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. SB has gone through many ownership changes, and it's not b/c it's been a money making machine. Quite the opposite. If this is what they need to do to make things work, have at it.

djd66
02-15-2014, 01:54 PM
The class warfare BS was started when someone in ownership thought it would be a good idea to give the "ClayBrook people" special privileges to the detrainment of the "pedestrians". What is reasonable about letting people who in your own words "just bought a condo" be able to cut lines, load lifts early, get cabin cat rides, so they can get first tracks in front of everyone else? If that is reasonable then full price season ticket holders should have priority over people who buy them at a discount, or maybe full price ticket buyers should be able to cut in front of quad pack holders. The list could go on and on..... I get the idea of giving a Claybrook holder getting special amenities like discounts around the resort, maybe some social gatherings or other marketing ideas but really they get to ski first or cut in line? By doing this management is saying to every ticket holder and pass holder that their time and experience is not as valuable as a "Claybrook" Someone gets in their car 2 hours before the lifts open to drive in a snow storm for an hour plus, get changed, get in line for first tracks, but no that doesn't get you first tracks because the "Claybrook people are more important because they bought "Just a Condo" never mind the fact that you have been a loyal SB pass holder for 1,5, 10, 15 years or just a ticket holder for one day. That concept is more insulting to the general public then anything that was said on this forum.

Not to beat a dead horse - do you get pissed off at airlines when you walk through the first class cabin and see all those first class cabiners?? Or how about all those people that get to go in the private airport lounge? What about the 12 item or less line at the supermarket? Honestly, I have never had an issue with the so called Claybrook special privileges. I have never been cut in line and could dont know anyone who has.

As far as season pass holders getting special privileges - we do. 10% for food and 10% at the shop and my kids ski for free under my pass until they are 12.

Getting extras by paying extra - it all part of life,... Frequent Flier Programs, Loyalty Cards - they are all the same - reward your best customers.

HowieT2
02-15-2014, 09:51 PM
The class warfare BS was started when someone in ownership thought it would be a good idea to give the "ClayBrook people" special privileges to the detrainment of the "pedestrians". What is reasonable about letting people who in your own words "just bought a condo" be able to cut lines, load lifts early, get cabin cat rides, so they can get first tracks in front of everyone else? If that is reasonable then full price season ticket holders should have priority over people who buy them at a discount, or maybe full price ticket buyers should be able to cut in front of quad pack holders. The list could go on and on..... I get the idea of giving a Claybrook holder getting special amenities like discounts around the resort, maybe some social gatherings or other marketing ideas but really they get to ski first or cut in line? By doing this management is saying to every ticket holder and pass holder that their time and experience is not as valuable as a "Claybrook" Someone gets in their car 2 hours before the lifts open to drive in a snow storm for an hour plus, get changed, get in line for first tracks, but no that doesn't get you first tracks because the "Claybrook people are more important because they bought "Just a Condo" never mind the fact that you have been a loyal SB pass holder for 1,5, 10, 15 years or just a ticket holder for one day. That concept is more insulting to the general public then anything that was said on this forum.

With all due respect, the fact that you were posting this morning instead of skiing on a great great day, makes me understand why you have so much anger about these things. Get out and have some fun, the snow is fantastic.

Btw-did anyone notice, how smoothly everything went today, with castle rock and the woods in play? I heard they had 5400 skiers at south this morning alone, but the lines were fine.

angler
02-16-2014, 12:00 AM
Do you get bent out of shape that people who pay more money get to sit on the 50 yard line at the football game while you're stuck in the nosebleed seats? If not, then I don't see why you'd be upset about Claybrookers getting special benefits. No matter how long you've skied at SB, it's likely that simply by purchasing a Claybrook share, they've spent more money than you at SB. If that extra benefit is what SB needs to sell out the Claybrook units and to help make ownership of SB sustainable, then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. SB has gone through many ownership changes, and it's not b/c it's been a money making machine. Quite the opposite. If this is what they need to do to make things work, have at it.


Not to beat a dead horse - do you get pissed off at airlines when you walk through the first class cabin and see all those first class cabiners?? Or how about all those people that get to go in the private airport lounge? What about the 12 item or less line at the supermarket? Honestly, I have never had an issue with the so called Claybrook special privileges. I have never been cut in line and could dont know anyone who has.

As far as season pass holders getting special privileges - we do. 10% for food and 10% at the shop and my kids ski for free under my pass until they are 12.

Getting extras by paying extra - it all part of life,... Frequent Flier Programs, Loyalty Cards - they are all the same - reward your best customers.

I understand what both of you are saying and to answer your questions, no I do not care about the 50 yard line example, frequent flyer, first class on an airplane, better tickets at a concert or any other example like these. I see the Claybrook example differently then that. It's not like SB offered different levels of tickets with different price levels that get you on the mountain at different times and someone makes a choice not to buy the more expensive time slot. Example 7 day mountain pass rather then a restricted pass. North pass rather then all mountain pass. ect ect... I get that and that feels fine. In my view that is very different then someone buying a condo and getting the privileges I spoke about. I know there is no right or wrong opinion here its just an opinion. Like someone else said on the board it depends on your own filter and how you view the situation through your own lens. In my opinion it does not feel right, it feels disrespectful to me.

angler
02-16-2014, 12:17 AM
With all due respect, the fact that you were posting this morning instead of skiing on a great great day, makes me understand why you have so much anger about these things. Get out and have some fun, the snow is fantastic.

Btw-did anyone notice, how smoothly everything went today, with castle rock and the woods in play? I heard they had 5400 skiers at south this morning alone, but the lines were fine.

With all due respect my post this morning has nothing to do with anything. As a matter of fact I was at the mountain by 7:20 this morning for a few runs before I went to work. I also was at the mountain all day on Friday. So I know all about fantastic snow and having fun. My observations and opinions I have expressed are not out of anger they are just observations and opinions on my experience of the mountain. Maybe you're confusing my passion with anger :wink:

chrisinvermont
02-16-2014, 07:42 AM
Btw-did anyone notice, how smoothly everything went today.

Boy did I notice. Was about 5th in line for NRX when at 8:59 they cleared the lift line by announcing it wouldn't load for at least another half hour. When it did run it was bouncing and swinging like crazy in a couple of spots and this on a day with zero wind. Did a late morning run down lower FIS (awesome) and cut over to take some runs on Inverness. Got there in time to see them clearing that lift line as it was running on what sounded like a back up motor so they could clear the lift. I know Win claims the lifts are only down 1% of the time but a quick calculation shows I've been effected by lift issues 54.5% of my days skiing this year. Always get runs in, but never what I had planned on.

Still on my way back up today though, skiing was awesome. I really hope this lift mess doesn't end up with a catastrophic failure before the season is out. So far they've been lucky.

Hawk
02-16-2014, 08:47 AM
Howie, he is dead on for what it is worth. Also FYI, I know people that aren't owners that get to cut with them because they know the right people. The hole owner club think totally sucks. The way I deal with it is to get up at dawn and beat them to it on occasion. Also I was in line at 9 at castlerock and they had to clear the lift until maintenance figure out what the problem was so from my perspective, not so smooth.

Whatever.

Hawk
02-16-2014, 08:50 AM
And just because it snowed does not give the mountain a total pass. They are still on notice with all of the paying customers.

HowieT2
02-16-2014, 06:43 PM
I understand what both of you are saying and to answer your questions, no I do not care about the 50 yard line example, frequent flyer, first class on an airplane, better tickets at a concert or any other example like these. I see the Claybrook example differently then that. It's not like SB offered different levels of tickets with different price levels that get you on the mountain at different times and someone makes a choice not to buy the more expensive time slot. Example 7 day mountain pass rather then a restricted pass. North pass rather then all mountain pass. ect ect... I get that and that feels fine. In my view that is very different then someone buying a condo and getting the privileges I spoke about. I know there is no right or wrong opinion here its just an opinion. Like someone else said on the board it depends on your own filter and how you view the situation through your own lens. In my opinion it does not feel right, it feels disrespectful to me.

Ok, if u want get picky, amusement parks like Disney, universal sell VIP tickets that let u cut lines. Same thing.

HowieT2
02-16-2014, 06:53 PM
And just because it snowed does not give the mountain a total pass. They are still on notice with all of the paying customers.

Point was that when there's snow and the mtn is fully open, the existing lifts are adequate for the traffic, quad passes or not. That's not to say they don't have an issue with lift operations, which have obviously been abysmal, but they don't need new lifts. They need to keep the ones they have (other than the vhd).running.

Whatever, another great day of turns today. Happily tired and sore. Not to sound greedy but we could still use another foot in the woods down low.

HowieT2
02-16-2014, 06:55 PM
Howie, he is dead on for what it is worth. Also FYI, I know people that aren't owners that get to cut with them because they know the right people. The hole owner club think totally sucks. The way I deal with it is to get up at dawn and beat them to it on occasion. Also I was in line at 9 at castlerock and they had to clear the lift until maintenance figure out what the problem was so from my perspective, not so smooth.

Whatever.

My powder plan does not involve the castle rock lift. That's all I can say.

angler
02-16-2014, 08:06 PM
Ok, if u want get picky, amusement parks like Disney, universal sell VIP tickets that let u cut lines. Same thing.

Not sure what you mean by picky, selling VIP tickets is not the same as giving condo holders the privilege to cut in front of the general public. Anyway we are beating a dead horse. Like I said before its just an opinion.......

Hawk
02-17-2014, 08:14 AM
OK DJD66, I will agree that I came off like an a-hole and I did underestimated your investment. Totally on me and sorry. What I will say is this. What has SV done for me or any of my freinds that I ski with. This is our general thought. We don't really use the logde, we don't use the Farm house or the school house. I don't ever pay for the cat. The bar is now in the basement and always jammed. I have never had a wedding there. The landscaping is nice and all but whatever.

Before all that, we skied all the same terrain and the mountain was a family of skiers with mostly locals, long timers and the day trippers that were not a huge factor. The mountain was mostly untracked on pow days at first lift and the vibe was very laid back.

I do realize that developement happens. I get it. Some here view the developement as a great thing and for the most part if you have a family the new facilities are grand. You can debate me on this all you like, but what has the new management given us people that have been here for just the skiing other than: longer lines, mechanical problems, these wealthy "condo" owners traking up the hill at 7am. This is our perspecive and our opinion. I understand yours and will repect it.


I understand what you are saying,.. i also think that there are some people on this board that have a holier than thou attitude about how much they ski and where they ski. I know what i ski and i am confident enough to not have to post it to this board every few days. But,... if you must here it is,....

Ski 40+ days a year, i have 2 kids in blazers and i own property on the mountain. Been skiing for over 40 years, worked full time on the ski patrol at a major resort, raced when i was in HS, skied 1000's of days in my life time,... does that qualify me?

Its the attitude of " you don't know shit because I ski this and I ski here" that motivated me to write my post. I NO financial interest in the mountain at all. (other than owning property) All I hear from this board is bitching about pretty much everything. It is getting rather old to be quite honest.

If I hear one more person say the term "Claybrooker" ,.....- like if you own a place at Claybrook you are a complete ahole???? (i dont own one) Listen, for $125K you can buy a place there + $10K you can buy a used Porsche. Bottom line - they are just condos - most likely that is what the Sugarbush Village was like 40 years ago. I do not get this class warfare BS for the life of me.

skimore
02-17-2014, 11:16 AM
Friday morning I lined up 40 minutes early for a certain lift, not brovo and watch two senior management members take 2 runs each, a patroler take three runs with a guest. Not knocking the patroler for taking his runs, they deicated there time for us, just did not understand the guest, same patroler showed up Saturday with 2 guests this time for another set of laps. Just saying, maybe they thought they thought they can fly under the radar since the only way for the average customer to get there would be to hike or skin to it as all lifts started at 9, even though I think uphil traffic is not allowed at that time of the day, r they needed to make sure the sonw quality was good. I had no problem getitng my fair share of POW over the last three days, but

HowieT2
02-17-2014, 07:02 PM
OK DJD66, I will agree that I came off like an a-hole and I did underestimated your investment. Totally on me and sorry. What I will say is this. What has SV done for me or any of my freinds that I ski with. This is our general thought. We don't really use the logde, we don't use the Farm house or the school house. I don't ever pay for the cat. The bar is now in the basement and always jammed. I have never had a wedding there. The landscaping is nice and all but whatever.

Before all that, we skied all the same terrain and the mountain was a family of skiers with mostly locals, long timers and the day trippers that were not a huge factor. The mountain was mostly untracked on pow days at first lift and the vibe was very laid back.

I do realize that developement happens. I get it. Some here view the developement as a great thing and for the most part if you have a family the new facilities are grand. You can debate me on this all you like, but what has the new management given us people that have been here for just the skiing other than: longer lines, mechanical problems, these wealthy "condo" owners traking up the hill at 7am. This is our perspecive and our opinion. I understand yours and will repect it.

I'm sorry, but this is not a valid argument. I pee in the woods therefore the resort doesn't need bathrooms. I have my own equipment therefore, the resort shouldn't invest in rentals. I don't have kids so therefore the resort shouldn't provide for them.
If you don't like the whole resort thing, don't utilize what it offers. But don't criticize the mgmt for doing what they need to do for the vast majority of their customers.

And complain all you want about the crp, it is vastly better than what was there before.

Fourwide
02-18-2014, 11:50 AM
Seems to me that the complaints re. "Claybrookers" cutting the line is just standing on principle. I don't see much difference between that and ski lessons cutting the line. Just not a material inconvenience for those not enjoying the benefit--there's still plenty of mountain out there.

Fourwide
02-18-2014, 11:51 AM
Hawk wrote--"Before all that, we skied all the same terrain and the mountain was a family of skiers with mostly locals, long timers and the day trippers that were not a huge factor. The mountain was mostly untracked on pow days at first lift and the vibe was very laid back."

I believe that mountain was insolvent.

ThinkSno
02-18-2014, 02:27 PM
Seems to me that the complaints re. "Claybrookers" cutting the line is just standing on principle. I don't see much difference between that and ski lessons cutting the line. Just not a material inconvenience for those not enjoying the benefit--there's still plenty of mountain out there.

The differences: for ski lessons, you pay extra for lessons, not time spent standing in line. Claybrook residents pay extra for premium living on the mountain. Cutting lift lines should have nothing to do with living there.

The mountain should offer a speed pass (like in amusement parks) where you have to pay extra for line cutting-- so everyone has access to the same treatment.

jwt
02-18-2014, 03:11 PM
The differences: for ski lessons, you pay extra for lessons, not time spent standing in line. Claybrook residents pay extra for premium living on the mountain. Cutting lift lines should have nothing to do with living there.

The mountain should offer a speed pass (like in amusement parks) where you have to pay extra for line cutting-- so everyone has access to the same treatment.

I don't know - free market dictates that anything goes and competition it the controlling variable - raise prices too much or give out too many goodies to the chosen few ( who fork out far more dollars than those of us who merely drop $2K-$4K for passes and schools.classes) then people vote with their feet.

If I were a Claybrooker, I'd expect some measure of amenities that others wouldn't have - like special access. However, if I were to rent mine, do they( renters) get special privileges? That wouldn't be cool for us - ( unless I were the owner renting - then I'd be selling that benefit on my rental site!)

Really, how many CB'ers can there be on a given powder weekend morning? 20? 30? And they can't all be experts either! Well-to-do people generally aren't - too busy being successful to take undo advantage of the benefit. I imagine the condo fees are steep too - taxes? out of this world.

Bottom line is people who can afford to will, and the rest of us need to understand that, eat it or move on or like me, be grateful they pay most of the income taxes in the country while I ski/skin/stay away from base/and occasionally go to Jay or some other place that 'over-built their expansion' just so I continue to be grateful for what we have here.

Anyone else notice we report 39" and everyone else far less? Bush Magic - even with a frozen lake behind us.

madhavok
02-18-2014, 03:17 PM
kooks go home.

Benski
02-18-2014, 05:22 PM
i know if you rent a claybrook you do not get to cut the line. i am not sure weather the people who own a shared unit get to cut. i hope these privileges are revoked after a certain period. I don't like it but it is too late do do anything about it other than not sell any more of these special privileges or sell it as a premium pass or ticket.

bill-now
02-18-2014, 08:08 PM
Claybrookers who own less than a full share are given the line cutting privilege. it is given to immediate family members only. My understanding is that line cutting is only available for first time sales and not resales. So the issue should slowly go away in the next 50 years or so.

Hawk
02-18-2014, 10:21 PM
It is valid to us. This is not just my opinion. Hey you like all this stuff they did so good for you guys. I say meh. Give me lifts that work and good conditions for most of my ski days.That is all that is important to me. Do you realize that we all just skied basically 2 months of crap before it snowed. But you know, it snowed so all is good. nothing to see here..... move along.....move along. ;-)


I'm sorry, but this is not a valid argument. I pee in the woods therefore the resort doesn't need bathrooms. I have my own equipment therefore, the resort shouldn't invest in rentals. I don't have kids so therefore the resort shouldn't provide for them.
If you don't like the whole resort thing, don't utilize what it offers. But don't criticize the mgmt for doing what they need to do for the vast majority of their customers.

And complain all you want about the crp, it is vastly better than what was there before.

MntMan4Bush
02-19-2014, 08:16 AM
kooks go home.

Man what are you talking about. You're so Howley you don't even know you're Howley.

MntMan4Bush
02-19-2014, 09:48 AM
I personally don't have an issue with the Claybrook privilege. I can understand why people do, but it's not too many people (currently) who use it and so long as lifties are diligent (are they?) to make sure it is only Claybrook owners and not their friends they want to ski with then it doesn't push me that far back in line. I mean it sucks and it's not my favorite policy, but whatever. I can live with it. However by nature of it's design it does create class warfare just like first class tickets on airlines, line cutter passes at Disney and the like. I.e. those who have get more privileges and those who don't don't. As a capitalist I can understand and accept this even though I'm on the bad side of it. But people not at least understanding why it ruffles others feathers is kind of strange. Almost like they're turning a blind eye and just accepting it as best practice because Win implemented it.

My issue is that we are seeing increased skier visits, therefore increased revenue, but we are not seeing the same put back into the day to day operations of the mountain. OK sure. We got a a new lodge and the ski school. However possibly a bit of a different motive there. I mean how many Claybrook units would you sell if the base lodge was an extended tent? Sure we all get the benefit of it and it is much nicer so thanks. But don't make it seem like it was all done for the skier base. It was done as an investment to make sure that returns on real estate investments paid off. Smart move and I don't question it. However let's focus on the skier niceties now.

I'm talking about more extensive lift maintenance. I'm not asking to replace all the lifts, but how about a radical overhaul of the main offenders and maybe a more rigorous off season maintenance plan to prevent the issues we've been plagued with the last couple of years, and especially this year. It's clear more is needed. Maybe you're just having bad luck, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make some changes. It's clear they are needed. As I mentioned before I expect my car to start 100% of the time I turn the key. If one out of a hundred times my car didn't start or it died on me while driving I wouldn't find that acceptable. In fact I do regular maintenance to ensure it doesn't happen and when a more expensive part is required I pony up and buy it or replace the car if it's a lemon. If someone were paying me to drive them around, expecting a service, and that's how I made money I'd do even more than I do today.

Second is snow making. We bring it up every year. You are hearing it from your skier base directly that skis at other mountains and can compare. The snow being made is bare minimum to say X trails open and the quality of snow being made is poor. Maybe you think it's great because the way you make it ensures you can make less and save more money and keep the mountain open longer (I'm sure frozen hard packed death ice takes longer to melt than loose granular), but it is terrible to ski on. So you're partially right. Yes it is great snow being made to sustain and overall pay less to keep terrain open, but no it is not great to ski on. Again go ski Killington. Try and tell me it's even close on a snow making trail. I don't care if you spent more than last year on snow making. You are so far behind in the race for this that it isn't an accurate comparison. It's like being the tallest midget. See what other mountains are doing and look at it objectively. Is it better snow? Yes. Do you want to make the change to give your skiers a better experience? That's up to you I guess. Right now we all know what decision you've made from you current and prior actions. Sorry to say.

Years ago you wouldn't here most of us complain about this. The mountain was quite. We knew there wasn't a ton of money coming in. The lift lines were short. We all spoke up and told our friends, colleagues and family about SB. I mean that was my go to conversation when I had nothing to say to anyone at a party or conference. "Do you ski? Well you have to try this place it's great......" Usually they'd respond with "Isn't that the one in Maine?" We wanted to actually see more people in the lines because we wanted the mountain to succeed and it was better than asking them what they did for work or how did they know so and so. When the snow making sucked and the lifts broke we figured no big deal. The mountain doesn't make enough to keep up, but the terrain and people are great, there's no lift lines and I can ski non-stop and I'm fine with it. I'll go to the bar after skiing and sit in my hard plastic cafeteria chair, sip my Long Trail at this rickety table and think about which run I'll start with tomorrow.

Now visits are up. You broke the record twice last year and once already this year. We know quad pack sales are up and you have discount tickets for sale all over. We know you're making money. Of course revenue does not always equal profit and I'm sure expenses went up too. I recognize we can't go to 100% lift replacement and turning the mountain into a snow globe with the snow guns over night. But let's look at what makes the user experience better. Early season we go to Killington. Not because they have a better lodge (It's pretty crummy). Not because they have better terrain. It's because they make good quality snow and lots of it. So think about it. I have a season pass and I ski for essentially free at SB (pre-paid), but I'm willing to shell out extra money to go elsewhere instead. Why is that? It's not because I like New Yorkers. (Zing!) In fact sometimes I stay up at SB and drive back down to Killington.

It's great when it's snowing and everyone is happy because we got a dumping of powder. Almost any mountain can produce smiles on that day. Blue Hill in Boston gets rave reviews then. It's what happens when mother nature is quiet and we're all grinding away on crust and getting tossed around a swale field as wet glop gets sprayed into your goggles.

But nobody listens to turtle.

HowieT2
02-19-2014, 01:03 PM
It is valid to us. This is not just my opinion. Hey you like all this stuff they did so good for you guys. I say meh. Give me lifts that work and good conditions for most of my ski days.That is all that is important to me. Do you realize that we all just skied basically 2 months of crap before it snowed. But you know, it snowed so all is good. nothing to see here..... move along.....move along. ;-)

So basically you should go ski mad river. really, its so close and cheaper, why wouldnt you? obviously, because its only been open for about 10 days this whole season. and cant wait to hear your complaints about the lift line at the single on a powder day.

Just because there are other like minded individuals does not make your position valid. need I cite the litany of widely held beliefs that are demonstrably wrong. and just stating that this is your opinion doesnt make it reasonable. SV took over a neglected resort, which is why there were no crowds back in the day and we had this gem of a mtn to ourselves. They have made significant capital investments in facilities, lifts, snowmaking and grooming. You can reasonably argue the merits of those investments, but saying they havent done "anything" is wrong.

HowieT2
02-19-2014, 01:19 PM
I personally don't have an issue with the Claybrook privilege. I can understand why people do, but it's not too many people (currently) who use it and so long as lifties are diligent (are they?) to make sure it is only Claybrook owners and not their friends they want to ski with then it doesn't push me that far back in line. I mean it sucks and it's not my favorite policy, but whatever. I can live with it. However by nature of it's design it does create class warfare just like first class tickets on airlines, line cutter passes at Disney and the like. I.e. those who have get more privileges and those who don't don't. As a capitalist I can understand and accept this even though I'm on the bad side of it. But people not at least understanding why it ruffles others feathers is kind of strange. Almost like they're turning a blind eye and just accepting it as best practice because Win implemented it.

My issue is that we are seeing increased skier visits, therefore increased revenue, but we are not seeing the same put back into the day to day operations of the mountain. OK sure. We got a a new lodge and the ski school. However possibly a bit of a different motive there. I mean how many Claybrook units would you sell if the base lodge was an extended tent? Sure we all get the benefit of it and it is much nicer so thanks. But don't make it seem like it was all done for the skier base. It was done as an investment to make sure that returns on real estate investments paid off. Smart move and I don't question it. However let's focus on the skier niceties now.

I'm talking about more extensive lift maintenance. I'm not asking to replace all the lifts, but how about a radical overhaul of the main offenders and maybe a more rigorous off season maintenance plan to prevent the issues we've been plagued with the last couple of years, and especially this year. It's clear more is needed. Maybe you're just having bad luck, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make some changes. It's clear they are needed. As I mentioned before I expect my car to start 100% of the time I turn the key. If one out of a hundred times my car didn't start or it died on me while driving I wouldn't find that acceptable. In fact I do regular maintenance to ensure it doesn't happen and when a more expensive part is required I pony up and buy it or replace the car if it's a lemon. If someone were paying me to drive them around, expecting a service, and that's how I made money I'd do even more than I do today.

Second is snow making. We bring it up every year. You are hearing it from your skier base directly that skis at other mountains and can compare. The snow being made is bare minimum to say X trails open and the quality of snow being made is poor. Maybe you think it's great because the way you make it ensures you can make less and save more money and keep the mountain open longer (I'm sure frozen hard packed death ice takes longer to melt than loose granular), but it is terrible to ski on. So you're partially right. Yes it is great snow being made to sustain and overall pay less to keep terrain open, but no it is not great to ski on. Again go ski Killington. Try and tell me it's even close on a snow making trail. I don't care if you spent more than last year on snow making. You are so far behind in the race for this that it isn't an accurate comparison. It's like being the tallest midget. See what other mountains are doing and look at it objectively. Is it better snow? Yes. Do you want to make the change to give your skiers a better experience? That's up to you I guess. Right now we all know what decision you've made from you current and prior actions. Sorry to say.

Years ago you wouldn't here most of us complain about this. The mountain was quite. We knew there wasn't a ton of money coming in. The lift lines were short. We all spoke up and told our friends, colleagues and family about SB. I mean that was my go to conversation when I had nothing to say to anyone at a party or conference. "Do you ski? Well you have to try this place it's great......" Usually they'd respond with "Isn't that the one in Maine?" We wanted to actually see more people in the lines because we wanted the mountain to succeed and it was better than asking them what they did for work or how did they know so and so. When the snow making sucked and the lifts broke we figured no big deal. The mountain doesn't make enough to keep up, but the terrain and people are great, there's no lift lines and I can ski non-stop and I'm fine with it. I'll go to the bar after skiing and sit in my hard plastic cafeteria chair, sip my Long Trail at this rickety table and think about which run I'll start with tomorrow.

Now visits are up. You broke the record twice last year and once already this year. We know quad pack sales are up and you have discount tickets for sale all over. We know you're making money. Of course revenue does not always equal profit and I'm sure expenses went up too. I recognize we can't go to 100% lift replacement and turning the mountain into a snow globe with the snow guns over night. But let's look at what makes the user experience better. Early season we go to Killington. Not because they have a better lodge (It's pretty crummy). Not because they have better terrain. It's because they make good quality snow and lots of it. So think about it. I have a season pass and I ski for essentially free at SB (pre-paid), but I'm willing to shell out extra money to go elsewhere instead. Why is that? It's not because I like New Yorkers. (Zing!) In fact sometimes I stay up at SB and drive back down to Killington.

It's great when it's snowing and everyone is happy because we got a dumping of powder. Almost any mountain can produce smiles on that day. Blue Hill in Boston gets rave reviews then. It's what happens when mother nature is quiet and we're all grinding away on crust and getting tossed around a swale field as wet glop gets sprayed into your goggles.

But nobody listens to turtle.

so now we are basically back to the snow making debate. I dont feel comfortable expressing an opinion on the quality of the snow that sb makes. But they have been buying new snow guns, year after year, which are rather expensive. So its not like the equipment is old and out of date. Do these new guns make bad snow??? is sugarbush the only resort to have purchased these devices? the answer is obviously, no. So why all the complaints about the quality of the snow that was made. Are they intentionally making bad snow? that would be odd. Is it cheaper to make bad snow instead of good snow? I would find that hard to believe.
Is there some type of skill or experience making snow that SB lacks which results in bad snow? That could be.

HowieT2
02-19-2014, 01:26 PM
Hawk wrote--"Before all that, we skied all the same terrain and the mountain was a family of skiers with mostly locals, long timers and the day trippers that were not a huge factor. The mountain was mostly untracked on pow days at first lift and the vibe was very laid back."

I believe that mountain was insolvent.

exactly.

MntMan4Bush
02-19-2014, 02:07 PM
so now we are basically back to the snow making debate. I dont feel comfortable expressing an opinion on the quality of the snow that sb makes. But they have been buying new snow guns, year after year, which are rather expensive. So its not like the equipment is old and out of date. Do these new guns make bad snow??? is sugarbush the only resort to have purchased these devices? the answer is obviously, no. So why all the complaints about the quality of the snow that was made. Are they intentionally making bad snow? that would be odd. Is it cheaper to make bad snow instead of good snow? I would find that hard to believe.
Is there some type of skill or experience making snow that SB lacks which results in bad snow? That could be.

I've seen the new guns. I've seen them repair/replace busted lines and pipes. They absolutely have spent some money on this issue. Is it enough to keep up with other comparable resorts in the NE? I don't feel it is, but I'm not the guy shelling out coin for it.

I have never made snow. I don't know what goes into making snow (apart from air, water and energy) and I am pretty far from an expert on how to do so correctly. However as a consumer I can speak with some expertise about the experience. Our man made snow is not good. I'd take the blind folded Taster Choice Challenge any day with other mountains in our area. As for why I have no idea. I can only guess. So a few guesses.

- If you are only going to budget for $X worth of snow in a given season and that amount is much lower than your competitors who plan on staying open as long as you do then when you make snow make enough to get the trails open, then blast it with wet glop that will freeze over night and become rock hard. Now you have a much more rigid base that I'm guessing takes longer to thaw. As such you can stay open as late as other resorts when Mother Natures takes her summer vacation and you didn't spend nearly as much money. Other mountains on the other hand may do this on day one to fill in the cracks, but then they change over to skier friendly snow that is loose granular and fun to ski on. It probably doesn't last as long into the season and skis off a bit quicker so they have to make it more often, but the skiers enjoy it while it's there and they keep making more so it's always there. Skier experience = Happy Face. I mean Killington made snow the week before the last huge storm. I bet it wasn't because they love to spend money. Although who doesn't.

- Maybe the new low E guns looked great on paper. Maybe they promised lower costs, were on clearance at Filene's Basement, came with some free snake oil. I have no idea, but it's possible that a poor purchase was made. Or maybe a good one. Maybe the guns produce the same snow as the others but for less annual cost so they they turn them on a bit more, but it's only marginally so and they look good but it doesn't cost much more. I will say that Killington and Stowe have quite a few Fan Guns. These bad boys put out volume. It is amazing to watch. I know we bought one or two of them. I don't see them out very often lately, but that could be more to do with my timing.

- Not keeping up with the times. I often see Win quote. "Well we made X amount more than last year". If you're one of the bottom tier snow makers then that isn't much of a statement. You need to look at your competitors and compare. In the last 2 years Stowe has bought 445 HKD Tower Guns, 150 Land Guns and 20 Fan guns. (Or possibly some of that is being bought this summer too. I know some was bought last summer) Plus a new reservoir and lots of pipeline. In any case that seems pretty significant.

- Training could be an issue too. I don't know. I have no idea what makes good snow. I know they work hard, but if they don't have proper technique I'm sure it makes a huge difference.Or maybe they're under staffed and can't be running the lines all day/night to make sure one gun isn't hosing down a slope or aimed at a tree. Maybe that can be addressed by making sure all mountain employees (Patrol, ambassadors, lifties enjoying a quick break, Win's dog Rumble) get some rudimentary training of what to look for and what good snow is like and call in any time they notice a gun going wrong. (Maybe that is already done) Or maybe they are trained exactly as the mountain wants and doing exactly as they are told by guess number 1 made by me.

Anyways it's only a guess by me of course and has no basis in fact. I only know what I experience and can hands down say that our snow making is lacking and not of the quality most people enjoy on a daily basis as compared to other mountains. I don't care to pull up stakes and move to another mountain. I've been coming to the valley and central VT since I was a kid. I'm here, but while here I want to see it better and I'll make sure to lend a voice to it until I do. When this forum started we were the small mountain with low vistor-ship I mentioned. Most of the posts then were all happy Go Win Go! Was it long term viable? Maybe not. So Win stepped in and changed the mountain and in most ways good ways. I'm sure his heart was all in the right place and we've all enjoyed some nice perks as a result. Whether you use the lodge or not, or any of the other facilities they were well thought out and not monstrosities and I imagine most woudl agree good things. The issue was that when a change was made it impacted a lot more then snapping fingers to profitability and the mountain has to keep up on the new demands being made of it and the marketplace.

Hawk
02-19-2014, 02:20 PM
Your responses are always so well thought out. Damn. OK it's a draw or mayber you won? IDK We don't see eye to eye is all. I respect that. It comes down to this. You love what they have done and I say for the money they spent, they could have done so much more. Different and better! Yes I know, it's not my money or my resort. It's just an opinion as is yours. I'm certainly not loosing sleep over it and I will still buy you a drink in our cozy crowded bar. ;-) By the way there is now enough snow for that adventure you and I have been talking about. We should talk when I get back from Jackson.

QUOTE=HowieT2;223071]So basically you should go ski mad river. really, its so close and cheaper, why wouldnt you? obviously, because its only been open for about 10 days this whole season. and cant wait to hear your complaints about the lift line at the single on a powder day.

Just because there are other like minded individuals does not make your position valid. need I cite the litany of widely held beliefs that are demonstrably wrong. and just stating that this is your opinion doesnt make it reasonable. SV took over a neglected resort, which is why there were no crowds back in the day and we had this gem of a mtn to ourselves. They have made significant capital investments in facilities, lifts, snowmaking and grooming. You can reasonably argue the merits of those investments, but saying they havent done "anything" is wrong.[/QUOTE]

Fourwide
02-19-2014, 03:18 PM
MM4B wrote: "My issue is that we are seeing increased skier visits, therefore increased revenue, but we are not seeing the same put back into the day to day operations of the mountain. OK sure. We got a a new lodge and the ski school. However possibly a bit of a different motive there. I mean how many Claybrook units would you sell if the base lodge was an extended tent? Sure we all get the benefit of it and it is much nicer so thanks. But don't make it seem like it was all done for the skier base. It was done as an investment to make sure that returns on real estate investments paid off. Smart move and I don't question it. However let's focus on the skier niceties now."

Not sure if that's a fair critique. Whatever the reason, the improvements were made.

"I'm talking about more extensive lift maintenance. I'm not asking to replace all the lifts, but how about a radical overhaul of the main offenders and maybe a more rigorous off season maintenance plan to prevent the issues we've been plagued with the last couple of years, and especially this year. It's clear more is needed. Maybe you're just having bad luck, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make some changes. It's clear they are needed. As I mentioned before I expect my car to start 100% of the time I turn the key. If one out of a hundred times my car didn't start or it died on me while driving I wouldn't find that acceptable. In fact I do regular maintenance to ensure it doesn't happen and when a more expensive part is required I pony up and buy it or replace the car if it's a lemon. If someone were paying me to drive them around, expecting a service, and that's how I made money I'd do even more than I do today."

This is a good point. I'm no engineer, but I can't believe these lifts are that complicated. Lots of wear and tear, sure, but not overly engineered. Whenever a lift part malfunctions, it seems that the replacement part must be shipped in from Saskatoon. I'd also guess that the software is ancient, befitting an ancient device.

I don't have a view on the snowmaking debate. Your points certainly could be valid. I'm looking forward to seeing Win's promised posting on that.

HowieT2
02-19-2014, 04:18 PM
Your responses are always so well thought out. Damn. OK it's a draw or mayber you won? IDK We don't see eye to eye is all. I respect that. It comes down to this. You love what they have done and I say for the money they spent, they could have done so much more. Different and better! Yes I know, it's not my money or my resort. It's just an opinion as is yours. I'm certainly not loosing sleep over it and I will still buy you a drink in our cozy crowded bar. ;-) By the way there is now enough snow for that adventure you and I have been talking about. We should talk when I get back from Jackson.

QUOTE=HowieT2;223071]So basically you should go ski mad river. really, its so close and cheaper, why wouldnt you? obviously, because its only been open for about 10 days this whole season. and cant wait to hear your complaints about the lift line at the single on a powder day.

Just because there are other like minded individuals does not make your position valid. need I cite the litany of widely held beliefs that are demonstrably wrong. and just stating that this is your opinion doesnt make it reasonable. SV took over a neglected resort, which is why there were no crowds back in the day and we had this gem of a mtn to ourselves. They have made significant capital investments in facilities, lifts, snowmaking and grooming. You can reasonably argue the merits of those investments, but saying they havent done "anything" is wrong.[/QUOTE]

dude, who needs the bar when you have the woods. I dont agree with all they have done. for example, I think they made a mistake not building a bigger schoolhouse with a cafeteria for the blazers and space for day care. and I dont understand why they didnt buy some fan guns (although that isnt an issue this year because it was so cold).
and I was lucky that the worst weekends at sb, I was out in BC. I'm still on cloud 9 from that so I dont have your frustration level.

seriously-you think there's enough snow for a trip to the holy land??? I'm not so sure. I think we lose some on friday and then have to build back up.

Benski
02-19-2014, 05:09 PM
I've seen the new guns. I've seen them repair/replace busted lines and pipes. They absolutely have spent some money on this issue. Is it enough to keep up with other comparable resorts in the NE? I don't feel it is, but I'm not the guy shelling out coin for it.

I have never made snow. I don't know what goes into making snow (apart from air, water and energy) and I am pretty far from an expert on how to do so correctly. However as a consumer I can speak with some expertise about the experience. Our man made snow is not good. I'd take the blind folded Taster Choice Challenge any day with other mountains in our area. As for why I have no idea. I can only guess. So a few guesses.

- If you are only going to budget for $X worth of snow in a given season and that amount is much lower than your competitors who plan on staying open as long as you do then when you make snow make enough to get the trails open, then blast it with wet glop that will freeze over night and become rock hard. Now you have a much more rigid base that I'm guessing takes longer to thaw. As such you can stay open as late as other resorts when Mother Natures takes her summer vacation and you didn't spend nearly as much money. Other mountains on the other hand may do this on day one to fill in the cracks, but then they change over to skier friendly snow that is loose granular and fun to ski on. It probably doesn't last as long into the season and skis off a bit quicker so they have to make it more often, but the skiers enjoy it while it's there and they keep making more so it's always there. Skier experience = Happy Face. I mean Killington made snow the week before the last huge storm. I bet it wasn't because they love to spend money. Although who doesn't.

- Maybe the new low E guns looked great on paper. Maybe they promised lower costs, were on clearance at Filene's Basement, came with some free snake oil. I have no idea, but it's possible that a poor purchase was made. Or maybe a good one. Maybe the guns produce the same snow as the others but for less annual cost so they they turn them on a bit more, but it's only marginally so and they look good but it doesn't cost much more. I will say that Killington and Stowe have quite a few Fan Guns. These bad boys put out volume. It is amazing to watch. I know we bought one or two of them. I don't see them out very often lately, but that could be more to do with my timing.

- Not keeping up with the times. I often see Win quote. "Well we made X amount more than last year". If you're one of the bottom tier snow makers then that isn't much of a statement. You need to look at your competitors and compare. In the last 2 years Stowe has bought 445 HKD Tower Guns, 150 Land Guns and 20 Fan guns. (Or possibly some of that is being bought this summer too. I know some was bought last summer) Plus a new reservoir and lots of pipeline. In any case that seems pretty significant.

From my expeareance the newer the guns the quieter they are and the better the snow. The only bad experience i have had with snowmaking have been skiing under the old ratnicks which Win has been replacing with the low e guns. Also most of the new low e tower guns at sugarbush were made by HKD so Stowe is likely buying the same guns as us.

chrisinvermont
02-19-2014, 06:01 PM
My comment on the snowmaking is best stated by the soft wipes on the thumbs of my gloves. Couldn't figure out why they are destroyed until I was wiping the snow making glop off of my googles. They consistently blow a wet slop that freezes instantly on the lens. It's like sandpaper when you try and remove it, it just shreds the wipe. Can't avoid it when it blows straight into the lift.

Hawk
02-20-2014, 07:37 AM
Did some recon this weekend. There is about 40"+ of base out there now. it is settleing and compressing as we speak. My Brother in law said they have had snow all this week to the tune of about a foot total. That is also going to compress. Today and tomorrow into Saturday they are talking about Snow, sleet, freezing rain. I am thinking we will get a net gain 0 on this event as the freezing rain may sheild the snow underneith and furthe compress it. So all we need it a coating on top and Boom! Next storm and that may be soon as the pattern is active. That is how I see it.



Seriously-you think there's enough snow for a trip to the holy land??? I'm not so sure. I think we lose some on friday and then have to build back up.[/QUOTE]

MntMan4Bush
02-20-2014, 09:00 AM
From my expeareance the newer the guns the quieter they are and the better the snow. The only bad experience i have had with snowmaking have been skiing under the old ratnicks which Win has been replacing with the low e guns. Also most of the new low e tower guns at sugarbush were made by HKD so Stowe is likely buying the same guns as us.

That may be true. I don't know enough about gun specifics to comment. I remember us getting these guns a while back, but haven't seen them much lately (this year). Perhaps I have not been on a trail that one was being used on. Did anyone see any of these newer guns this year? When we first got them they were pretty recognizable and prominent. Though I do recall they didn't seem to put out much snow and if I also recall had issues if it was too cold or too warm that limited their usage and was different form existing guns, but I could be wrong. Maybe Low-E also means lower output? Or maybe because they were a lot quieter it was an optical illusion on volume.

If Low-E does mean less volume and output then I have a suggestion. Can we get High-E guns? This is where I toss environmentalism out the door. If gross energy consumption gets us yards of snow a day then I am all for giant fuel guzzling guns. I'm talking dirty diesel. None of that clean crap. Pure dinosaur blood. Hook that thing up to a kitten's heart if you have to and feed it orphan souls. Make the nozzle out of right whale bone and maybe make the packaging it comes in disposable and made of Bicknel Thrush feathers.

But I guess the environment is good to have too and all......Just saying.

Hawk
02-20-2014, 10:15 AM
The low-E guns are environmental correct because they use less air pressure to make snow and thus less energy. The energy they save is the power that is used to run the compressors that make the air. In our case these are totally electrical. We do not run any diesel powered air compressors. Again I will state what the actual issue is. We have only a limited amount of air that the system at Sugarbush can produce. This amount is partially depleted because the aging system leaks. Leaks come in all sizes, some big that they fix some small that they don't fix because they don’t know or they can't see because they are remote or underground. Either way that detracts from the overall production. If you buy more low-e guns logic would say you can run more because you use less air. But what happens at sugarbush is that they run to many or they fail to adjust the pressures as the temp rises or they add guns. The result is wet guns. This also happens when new leaks occur. The pressure drops and the guns get wet. Either way the product gets wet. The only way to combat this is to adjust the production constantly or shut off some guns. They do neither as far as I can tell. I am the polar opposite of Ben. I think the new guns make no real difference on the quality or production of the snow.

HowieT2
02-20-2014, 12:28 PM
The low-E guns are environmental correct because they use less air pressure to make snow and thus less energy. The energy they save is the power that is used to run the compressors that make the air. In our case these are totally electrical. We do not run any diesel powered air compressors. Again I will state what the actual issue is. We have only a limited amount of air that the system at Sugarbush can produce. This amount is partially depleted because the aging system leaks. Leaks come in all sizes, some big that they fix some small that they don't fix because they don’t know or they can't see because they are remote or underground. Either way that detracts from the overall production. If you buy more low-e guns logic would say you can run more because you use less air. But what happens at sugarbush is that they run to many or they fail to adjust the pressures as the temp rises or they add guns. The result is wet guns. This also happens when new leaks occur. The pressure drops and the guns get wet. Either way the product gets wet. The only way to combat this is to adjust the production constantly or shut off some guns. They do neither as far as I can tell. I am the polar opposite of Ben. I think the new guns make no real difference on the quality or production of the snow.

Win said when we had this debate last year, that as a result of the more efficient guns, they were maxing out on water such that the air was no longer a limiting capacity. That is why we dont see rented diesel compressors. Water capacity is a complicated issue because it not only involves how much water can physically be pumped but also how much can legally be pumped pursuant to permit.
But again I dont think the complaints lie with how much snow was made since all the snowmaking trails were open, but in the quality of that snow.
There are different guns that they have invested in over the last years. there are the low e guns which you see on the towers and the snologic guns which are mostly free standing but also on towers. The latter are supposedly extremely efficient in the prime wet bulb temperatures. My observation of the snow they were putting out when the the temps were right, was that they made a ton of silky snow. If there is a problem with those guns it is at suboptimal temperatures and that they are unwieldy to move around.
I think the "bad" snow people are complaining about are from the the old ratnik ground guns (the ones we see with hoses on the ground) and the old tower guns which they seem to be replacing. I believe it was stated here last year that they still use those because they are easier to move into certain locations.

Ride Delaware ?
02-20-2014, 12:43 PM
In fact, most of the ground guns you see now are actually SR-7 guns, not Ratniks (unless Ratnik makes the SR-7s). The Low E guns run somewhere around 5 cfm air while the SR-7s are somewhere around 20 times that. That being said, the production of the SR-7 guns is unparalleled. The new low E guns just can't produce that much in the same amount of time.

If I remember from previous discussions, the LP system can do 4,000 g of water while the ME system can run 2,000 g of water. If they have cut down enough from using SR-7s to Low E, it's totally possible that they maxed on water. There is a permit amount of water and they can only pump that amount and only when the river is at x level. But once again, I think this is mostly about quality, not quantity. Just thought I would add some info.

MntMan4Bush
02-20-2014, 01:13 PM
As mentioned Stowe made a whole new reservoir to supply water, though I'm sure the building of it required permits galore.

Quality is certainly a problem. Perhaps quantity is a poor choice of words. Using it means you can qualify it as sufficient quantity because a trail was opened. Just because a trail is open does not mean there is enough snow produced on a regular basis to make it stay enjoyable. I.e. we opened Jester. Let's turn off the guns and move them. A couple days later you have a hard pack ice luge that will take a pretty bad thaw to get rid of. Technically the trail is open. Even a place like Killington that makes nice snow has to keep touching up as it is skied off and at the end of the week/month they would end up similar to us I'm sure. It's what happens in between that matters. The touch ups or dressing. So rather than say quantity perhaps we should say frequency?

No idea which guns are which. Haven't stopped to read the labels. But if I hear you correctly the tripod stand looking ones pump out some volume. Most of it seems wet though. Again this could be intentional to create a longer lasting base and overall cost less money because they have to make less "frequently".

The ones on the ground that look like cheap knock off space guns from a mystery science theater 3000 episode I haven't seen used in a while and they don't seem to put out a lot of volume. Again it could be perception as they are quieter.

So looking at competition and their investments, Stowe is addressing lack of water with a giant reservoir. They are addressing air with replacing miles of pipeline. They are probably addressing a bit of each with an automated system. I'm not saying Win should dig into his wallet today and fire up the backhoe and start digging a new lake. Or that they shuld stop putting duct tape on the pipes in an attempt to keep them going. I'd love to hear:

1) That he recognizes there is an issue as compared to other regional mountains and that they are behind in keeping up with the times.
2) What the plan is to catch up and the time frame. If he says it's going to take 5 years to catch Stowe and in year one they plan and get money. Year 2 they replace pipeline. Year 3 add more pipeline. Year 4 dig a reservoir and year 5 go ape on buying new guns then problem solved for me. I know the problem is recognized and a plan is in place. If it spills over to 6 years and the fall behind I'm fine and sticking it out.

I just hate the "Everything is great and everyone tells me it's excellent" approach. That scares me. That means I have no plans for significant change.

Lastly I don't care if our guns don't run off dirty diesel. We should drill holes in them and top them off anyways. It can't hurt. If Gillette can figure out how to add a 5th blade to a razor then by god we can figure out how to consume more fuel.

HowieT2
02-20-2014, 02:30 PM
As mentioned Stowe made a whole new reservoir to supply water, though I'm sure the building of it required permits galore.

Quality is certainly a problem. Perhaps quantity is a poor choice of words. Using it means you can qualify it as sufficient quantity because a trail was opened. Just because a trail is open does not mean there is enough snow produced on a regular basis to make it stay enjoyable. I.e. we opened Jester. Let's turn off the guns and move them. A couple days later you have a hard pack ice luge that will take a pretty bad thaw to get rid of. Technically the trail is open. Even a place like Killington that makes nice snow has to keep touching up as it is skied off and at the end of the week/month they would end up similar to us I'm sure. It's what happens in between that matters. The touch ups or dressing. So rather than say quantity perhaps we should say frequency?

No idea which guns are which. Haven't stopped to read the labels. But if I hear you correctly the tripod stand looking ones pump out some volume. Most of it seems wet though. Again this could be intentional to create a longer lasting base and overall cost less money because they have to make less "frequently".

The ones on the ground that look like cheap knock off space guns from a mystery science theater 3000 episode I haven't seen used in a while and they don't seem to put out a lot of volume. Again it could be perception as they are quieter.

So looking at competition and their investments, Stowe is addressing lack of water with a giant reservoir. They are addressing air with replacing miles of pipeline. They are probably addressing a bit of each with an automated system. I'm not saying Win should dig into his wallet today and fire up the backhoe and start digging a new lake. Or that they shuld stop putting duct tape on the pipes in an attempt to keep them going. I'd love to hear:

1) That he recognizes there is an issue as compared to other regional mountains and that they are behind in keeping up with the times.
2) What the plan is to catch up and the time frame. If he says it's going to take 5 years to catch Stowe and in year one they plan and get money. Year 2 they replace pipeline. Year 3 add more pipeline. Year 4 dig a reservoir and year 5 go ape on buying new guns then problem solved for me. I know the problem is recognized and a plan is in place. If it spills over to 6 years and the fall behind I'm fine and sticking it out.

I just hate the "Everything is great and everyone tells me it's excellent" approach. That scares me. That means I have no plans for significant change.

Lastly I don't care if our guns don't run off dirty diesel. We should drill holes in them and top them off anyways. It can't hurt. If Gillette can figure out how to add a 5th blade to a razor then by god we can figure out how to consume more fuel.

just note that 2 years ago SB replaced all the pipe on the access road and german flats, I believe. They have been adding new guns every year. additional compressors arent necessary because they have sufficient air and even if they didnt they'd be better off with fan guns which have onboard compressors.
As for the snowmaking pond, it was rebuilt after irene to its maximum permitted capacity.

I dont think anyone is arguing that there is no need for capital improvements. there surely is and they know that. its also somewhat unfair to compare SB to stowe. stowe has development on a scale which was rejected at SB in the ASC years so they have significantly more capital to play with.

angler
02-20-2014, 02:32 PM
The issue at hand is while the mountain as been successful in driving sales (aka skier visits) the infrastructure needed to handle the increase hasn't been able to keep pace. Every aspect of this issue has been discussed in this thread. So the key question is what is the plan for ownership to be able to keep up with their competition and provide a quality experience when there is no snow or after a rain event followed by sub freezing temps?

Using Stowe for an example they are transparent in their plans for the mountain a couple of years out. By doing this they instill confidence to their pass holders and ticket holders that they are committed to continual improvement of the guest experience. Three seasons ago after a bad snow year they decided if they wanted to be a world class resort they needed to be able to create their own mountain and not just rely on mother nature so they put out a 3 year plan on snowmaking improvements that total 10 million dollars. Final phase this summer. This is just one example of many I could give you where they acknowledged they had a problem and addressed it. I call this having your "actions in concert with your words."

The issue IMO @ SB is the fact that ownership has not demonstrated that type of commitment to improving the "on mountain experience" like (in this case Stowe) their competition. Lets face it one could argue that the mountain needs at least four new lifts, better snowmaking plan with quality, quantity, and the willingness to go back and resurface trails on an ongoing basis. This is the cost of admission to compete with the other regional mountains. I understand that SB does not have the deep pockets like a Stowe or Killington. With that being said they still need to have a plan to address these issues as the skier experience has been denigrated since they started to sell lift tickets at all costs, which I believe was the original point of this thread.

Fourwide
02-20-2014, 03:03 PM
SB will never "catch up" with Stowe's pace of capital improvements, at least so long as Stowe is owned by AIG. We just have to accept that. That being said, SB ownership has made plenty of effective capital improvements and I'm sure will continue to do so. I do believe that lift maintenance and repair could be better, and that the mountain can communicate better when lift problems occur. I'm also looking forward to seeing Win's promised communication re. snowmaking.

Hawk
02-20-2014, 03:08 PM
My assessment is from three things: One, I asked at the source(at the compressor plant a couple of years ago and then more recently) Two, I happen to know a coupe of snow makers that used to live near me and frequent the pine tree. Three, I have actually made snow in my life time. They told me that unless there is a drought, there is plenty of water. Especially since they fixed the pipe comming up from river and redug the resi after the hurricane. The river flows and fills the ressi constantly so how would there be a shortage? They also said that air is the issue when it comes to sheer volume. If they just blew a small area all the guns would be fine. But they strech the boundry and get into trouble. This is most eveident when it is cold and they still blow glop. SO, if the guns work so efficiainty and make such remarkable snow, then why do I get glop on my lense every single time they blow. Even when it is 10 deg out??? I am forming my opinion based on feild research and experience. You know....... I am going to get a go-Pro and do some investigative reporting and then release it. That way people will not think I am talking out my a$$.


Win said when we had this debate last year, that as a result of the more efficient guns, they were maxing out on water such that the air was no longer a limiting capacity. That is why we dont see rented diesel compressors. Water capacity is a complicated issue because it not only involves how much water can physically be pumped but also how much can legally be pumped pursuant to permit.
But again I dont think the complaints lie with how much snow was made since all the snowmaking trails were open, but in the quality of that snow.
There are different guns that they have invested in over the last years. there are the low e guns which you see on the towers and the snologic guns which are mostly free standing but also on towers. The latter are supposedly extremely efficient in the prime wet bulb temperatures. My observation of the snow they were putting out when the the temps were right, was that they made a ton of silky snow. If there is a problem with those guns it is at suboptimal temperatures and that they are unwieldy to move around.
I think the "bad" snow people are complaining about are from the the old ratnik ground guns (the ones we see with hoses on the ground) and the old tower guns which they seem to be replacing. I believe it was stated here last year that they still use those because they are easier to move into certain locations.

MntMan4Bush
02-20-2014, 04:18 PM
Can't be Stowe so don't even try to compete? I know you didn't say that, but that's the other side of the argument.

I guess I'm saying that our competition is out pacing us. We don't need to be lock step with them, but how about not falling so far behind they stop looking over their shoulders. We are getting more revenue now. I don't know how much Stowe makes a year compared to us. I'm sure there's a difference. Though I was talking to someone at my golf club who is good friends with the CFO and Stowe is not exactly rolling in buckets of money from what I understand. Though this is all third hand communication and subject to all kinds of wrong.

Also I think the pipe was replaced because it burst and washed out the road though right? I seem to have a memory about this, but I could be way wrong. If I'm right then it's hard to give credit for replacing something when it was causing damage to the surrounding community. I mean let's wait until it starts causing some real damage and gushing tons of water before we touch it. If that's not a sign of neglect I don't know what is. If I'm wrong though my apologies and in most cases I am likely to be wrong. :)

Hawk
02-20-2014, 04:27 PM
I believe they were working on the road and discovered the pipe was in really bad shap. Thay realized they needed to fix it now instead of having disaster later.

Can't be Stowe so don't even try to compete? I know you didn't say that, but that's the other side of the argument.

Allso I think the pipe was replaced because it burst and washed out the road though right? I seem to have a memory about this, but I could be way wrong. If I'm right then it's hard to give credit for replacing something when it was causing damage to the surrounding community. I mean let's wait until it starts causing some real damage and gushing tons of water before we touch it. If that's not a sign of neglect I don't know what is. If I'm wrong though my apologies and in most cases I am likely to be wrong. :)

angler
02-20-2014, 05:05 PM
'Can't be Stowe so don't even try to compete? I know you didn't say that, but that's the other side of the argument."

Understood, with that being said there still needs to be some accountability to the fact that they have increased skier visits substancially to the detriment of the experience. What good are improvements if they don't effect change in the experience? Why should SB " Get Out Of Jail Card Free because they don't have as much money as Stowe or other mountains. At some point you have to compare them to their competition. Just saying................

Benski
02-20-2014, 11:03 PM
Win said when we had this debate last year, that as a result of the more efficient guns, they were maxing out on water such that the air was no longer a limiting capacity. That is why we dont see rented diesel compressors. Water capacity is a complicated issue because it not only involves how much water can physically be pumped but also how much can legally be pumped pursuant to permit.
But again I dont think the complaints lie with how much snow was made since all the snowmaking trails were open, but in the quality of that snow.
There are different guns that they have invested in over the last years. there are the low e guns which you see on the towers and the snologic guns which are mostly free standing but also on towers. The latter are supposedly extremely efficient in the prime wet bulb temperatures. My observation of the snow they were putting out when the the temps were right, was that they made a ton of silky snow. If there is a problem with those guns it is at suboptimal temperatures and that they are unwieldy to move around.
I think the "bad" snow people are complaining about are from the the old ratnik ground guns (the ones we see with hoses on the ground) and the old tower guns which they seem to be replacing. I believe it was stated here last year that they still use those because they are easier to move into certain locations.

The low e guns a fraction of the air which is what makes snow making so expensive, uses energy and usually limits snow making capacity. I think sugarbush maxes out of air most of the time they are making snow. As a system they are definitely making more snow because of the low e guns.

HowieT2
02-21-2014, 07:47 AM
My understanding is that kton gets more than double the skier visits that sb does. There was time when it was more than triple. I think Stowe doesn't get quite as much as kton, but it is still substantially more than sb. I could be totally wrong, because I haven't seen hard numbers in a couple of years.
And btw-while we r talking about snowmaking at kton, how r things at pico. I heard people complaining about the snow making there. And last year there was an uproar about the snowmaking for the dew tour there. Just saying.

HowieT2
02-21-2014, 07:55 AM
'Can't be Stowe so don't even try to compete? I know you didn't say that, but that's the other side of the argument."

Understood, with that being said there still needs to be some accountability to the fact that they have increased skier visits substancially to the detriment of the experience. What good are improvements if they don't effect change in the experience? Why should SB " Get Out Of Jail Card Free because they don't have as much money as Stowe or other mountains. At some point you have to compare them to their competition. Just saying................

Because some of us are at sb because we don't want the crowds of Stowe and kton.

HowieT2
02-21-2014, 08:06 AM
http://youtu.be/m6qTOcGTJd0

angler
02-21-2014, 08:54 AM
Because some of us are at sb because we don't want the crowds of Stowe and kton.

I would have agreed with you a could of years ago. Im not sure that if there is a difference anymore. Im not sure of the numbers but skiing at both mountains the past two years it doesn't feel like the lift lines are different. In some cases they might be shorter at Stowe then SB. The lift system and the speed of the lifts are capable of moving a lot of people up the mountain. I was surprised by this...

MntMan4Bush
02-21-2014, 09:11 AM
Because some of us are at sb because we don't want the crowds of Stowe and kton.

Whether you want them or not with all the cheap tickets flying out the door we are working our way towards it, not away from it. So if we are going to be more like them crowd-wise, which draws in revenue, then my point is we should at least get some more of the perks they do like better snow and dependable lifts.

You also can't compare number of visitors at K-ton to here. You'd have to take a place that has the exact same ski acreage and compare to say one has more visits than the others and draw a parallel. Whistler also gets a lot more skiers than SB. Yet somehow they don't have as many lines.......... See what I mean?

Lastly I've seen tons of those videos. My former favorite was the one about the Sorority Girl Letter. This one though was outstanding. If you were the author then my compliments. It was perfect.

Fourwide
02-21-2014, 10:03 AM
'Can't be Stowe so don't even try to compete? I know you didn't say that, but that's the other side of the argument."

Understood, with that being said there still needs to be some accountability to the fact that they have increased skier visits substancially to the detriment of the experience. What good are improvements if they don't effect change in the experience? Why should SB " Get Out Of Jail Card Free because they don't have as much money as Stowe or other mountains. At some point you have to compare them to their competition. Just saying................

I'd also like to see some #s. I don't believe that skier visits have increased substantially. I'm sure they're doing better, but I'd be surprised if visits over the past 2-3 years have increased more than 10%. Again, AIG, a big public company, owns Stowe. There's just more $$ available for capital improvements, so long as operating income can cover the additional investment. SB owners must come out of pocket (family $$), as they're likely terrified (justifiably) of funding improvements with debt. They do have some additional flexibility, however, as they don't require the return that AIG does.

Nick
02-21-2014, 10:24 AM
I think I need to visit skirmv more often ;)

chrisinvermont
02-21-2014, 10:53 AM
I think I need to visit skirmv more often ;)

Why, are the apologists still over on the main site whining that people here dare to question Win? ;)

chrisinvermont
02-21-2014, 11:15 AM
With updates like this, the crowd issue will be resolved quickly.

*** Due to icing, the following lifts are delayed: Heaven's Gate, Castlerock, North Lynx, Summit, Northridge, and GMX. Super Bravo is on maintenance delay. Slide Brook is closed for the day. **
The icing I get, it's nature but Bravo is down yet again.

angler
02-21-2014, 11:22 AM
With updates like this, the crowd issue will be resolved quickly.

*** Due to icing, the following lifts are delayed: Heaven's Gate, Castlerock, North Lynx, Summit, Northridge, and GMX. Super Bravo is on maintenance delay. Slide Brook is closed for the day. **
The icing I get, it's nature but Bravo is down yet again.

I understand the icing as well. What I don't understand is how do all the other surrounding ski areas not have the same problem today no one else is reporting those type of delays.

chrisinvermont
02-21-2014, 12:25 PM
I understand the icing as well. What I don't understand is how do all the other surrounding ski areas not have the same problem today no one else is reporting those type of delays.

In fairness while Stowe seems to have all lifts running, Kton shows many closed or on hold. MRG also has icing issues today on lifts and terrain.

Ride Delaware ?
02-21-2014, 12:41 PM
I understand the icing as well. What I don't understand is how do all the other surrounding ski areas not have the same problem today no one else is reporting those type of delays.
In fact, many areas are struggling with icing. Magic just got their chair running at 12:30, and it's a fixed grip. With precip continuing, I would say that running a high speed would be more the exception than the rule today. I know we like to compare SB to the other stalwarts, but while I worked at SR, we struggled with icing just like the rest. There were plenty of days hiking from the top of the fixed grip Locke triple to Barker.

Hawk
02-21-2014, 12:46 PM
I am not leaving here any time soon. I have invested quite a bit as some of you know. But if my wife gets that big job at that small software company in Remond, WA, Crystal Mtn may become my new home. Just saying.

Chewbarka
02-21-2014, 05:03 PM
Thanks Howie! You made me laugh at this all over again. Good job!

http://youtu.be/m6qTOcGTJd0

shadyjay
02-21-2014, 10:44 PM
Bravo opened briefly, then went down due to continued icing issues. I was not up that high, but from what I heard, continued icing at the top of Bravo accumulated on the chairs which prevented them from properly making it through the terminals. Gate House ran without any major issues since its summit elevation is lower than Bravo's. Valley House and other fixed grips operated normally since those chairs do not detach from the main haul rope and there was no icing concerns as far as operation of the lift goes. The trails they serve, though... that was another story. VH chair was cleared first when it became apparent Bravo would be delayed. With LM crews working on the base area detaches, this delayed the upper mtn. After all, you can't get to North Lynx without Gate House. Of course by 2:40, it all became moot when the thunder and lightning rolled in.

I just glanced at various other ski area snow reports from today and saw numerous delays or flat out closures. Smuggs appears to have gone "back in time" with their snow report, dated December 31, 1969. Bolton didn't even open today. K and Mt Snow both had delays. All these resorts are also forecasting anticipated delays tomorrow. So it's not just us. Be prepared in the AM.

If Stowe wasn't reporting delays, perhaps part of the reason is because gondola cabins can be kept off the line at night so their grips don't ice up. No idea if this is actually done. Could apply to Killington's gondolas as well. And I believe reading in a PR when they replaced the Fourrunner Quad at Stowe that the chairs can be taken off the mainline at night and the rope run to prevent icing. Perhaps that's what was done. Luckily these icing events are the exception, not the norm.

For those coming out tomorrow, be safe!

Benski
02-22-2014, 08:00 AM
Bravo opened briefly, then went down due to continued icing issues. I was not up that high, but from what I heard, continued icing at the top of Bravo accumulated on the chairs which prevented them from properly making it through the terminals. Gate House ran without any major issues since its summit elevation is lower than Bravo's. Valley House and other fixed grips operated normally since those chairs do not detach from the main haul rope and there was no icing concerns as far as operation of the lift goes. The trails they serve, though... that was another story. VH chair was cleared first when it became apparent Bravo would be delayed. With LM crews working on the base area detaches, this delayed the upper mtn. After all, you can't get to North Lynx without Gate House. Of course by 2:40, it all became moot when the thunder and lightning rolled in.

I just glanced at various other ski area snow reports from today and saw numerous delays or flat out closures. Smuggs appears to have gone "back in time" with their snow report, dated December 31, 1969. Bolton didn't even open today. K and Mt Snow both had delays. All these resorts are also forecasting anticipated delays tomorrow. So it's not just us. Be prepared in the AM.

If Stowe wasn't reporting delays, perhaps part of the reason is because gondola cabins can be kept off the line at night so their grips don't ice up. No idea if this is actually done. Could apply to Killington's gondolas as well. And I believe reading in a PR when they replaced the Fourrunner Quad at Stowe that the chairs can be taken off the mainline at night and the rope run to prevent icing. Perhaps that's what was done. Luckily these icing events are the exception, not the norm.

For those coming out tomorrow, be safe!

What about the north ridge and gmx which appear to have a a structure to support chairs so they can be taken off.

angler
02-22-2014, 02:28 PM
I am not leaving here any time soon. I have invested quite a bit as some of you know. But if my wife gets that big job at that small software company in Remond, WA, Crystal Mtn may become my new home. Just saying.

If we have many more winters like this maybe you can buy a big house so we can visit and reminisce about the good old days at the bush. Just saying........

HowieT2
02-23-2014, 08:25 AM
I understand the icing as well. What I don't understand is how do all the other surrounding ski areas not have the same problem today no one else is reporting those type of delays.

Were you anywhere in the vicinity during this event??? Have u skied the upper elevations since and actually been on the lifts? Because if u were, you wouldn't be posting stupid questions wondering why there were icing problems and intimating that it's the mtns fault. Go ski paradise and let us know if you find significant enough ice accretion for you to lay off the complaining about everything.

And fwiw- for someone who supposedly has been skiing northern vt for many years, you're pretty clueless about the variability of weather impacts among the ski areas. If you hadn't noticed, we can get a foot of snow while kton or Stowe get an inch and vice versa. Heck, there is often a difference between what happens at mt Ellen and lp and they r 2 miles apart. Earlier this season we, for the most part, dodged an icing event while Stowe got hit hard. Idk how much ice Stowe got this time, but it's not really relevant. There was a thick layer in the upper elevations here.

HowieT2
02-23-2014, 08:26 AM
Thanks Howie! You made me laugh at this all over again. Good job!
Glad u enjoyed, but all credit goes to benski. I did nothing.

MntMan4Bush
02-23-2014, 09:44 AM
I definitely give the mountain a pass on icy days and windy days with withholds. Nothing the mountain can do on those days and it comes down to skier safety. As Howie said, if you are wondering if the ice reports are accurate allow me to assure you. They are.

Back to the original issue at hand though. Go look at Killington's condition report. Similar to ours about the ice, but notice anything different? They're turning the guns on again and blasting away to give skiers soft snow to take some turns on. I can guarantee very few soft turns at the Bush today and as the day progresses. That pretty much sums up my issue as it relates to the quantity side of the equation. Killington has their spring pass on sale now and I know quite a few SB season pass holders who bought one of those. That's money and revenue being spent down south as opposed to the valley on those weekends. Meanwhile our guns have been stored for the long term I'm sure. Can't be a water or air issue. It's finding the on switch.

angler
02-23-2014, 06:45 PM
Were you anywhere in the vicinity during this event??? Have u skied the upper elevations since and actually been on the lifts? Because if u were, you wouldn't be posting stupid questions wondering why there were icing problems and intimating that it's the mtns fault. Go ski paradise and let us know if you find significant enough ice accretion for you to lay off the complaining about everything.

And fwiw- for someone who supposedly has been skiing northern vt for many years, you're pretty clueless about the variability of weather impacts among the ski areas. If you hadn't noticed, we can get a foot of snow while kton or Stowe get an inch and vice versa. Heck, there is often a difference between what happens at mt Ellen and lp and they r 2 miles apart. Earlier this season we, for the most part, dodged an icing event while Stowe got hit hard. Idk how much ice Stowe got this time, but it's not really relevant. There was a thick layer in the upper elevations here.

I find it interesting that you feel the need to attack me personally rather then to stay on the issue at end. Not one of my responses to any of your posts have I attempted to denigrate you. I have been more then respectful in all my posts on this board. Just because I don't turn a blind eye to what is happening or not happening at SB shouldn't be cause for you or others to be disrespectful or attacking towards me.

angler
02-23-2014, 07:00 PM
Can't be a water or air issue. It's finding the on switch.

You have to want to find the switch to turn it on.

Benski
02-23-2014, 07:42 PM
I definitely give the mountain a pass on icy days and windy days with withholds. Nothing the mountain can do on those days and it comes down to skier safety. As Howie said, if you are wondering if the ice reports are accurate allow me to assure you. They are.

Back to the original issue at hand though. Go look at Killington's condition report. Similar to ours about the ice, but notice anything different? They're turning the guns on again and blasting away to give skiers soft snow to take some turns on. I can guarantee very few soft turns at the Bush today and as the day progresses. That pretty much sums up my issue as it relates to the quantity side of the equation. Killington has their spring pass on sale now and I know quite a few SB season pass holders who bought one of those. That's money and revenue being spent down south as opposed to the valley on those weekends. Meanwhile our guns have been stored for the long term I'm sure. Can't be a water or air issue. It's finding the on switch.

I think sugarbush does not plan on making snow after presidents day. I think they try to hit there the limit to the amount of snow they can make by presidents day.

HowieT2
02-23-2014, 07:53 PM
I find it interesting that you feel the need to attack me personally rather then to stay on the issue at end. Not one of my responses to any of your posts have I attempted to denigrate you. I have been more then respectful in all my posts on this board. Just because I don't turn a blind eye to what is happening or not happening at SB shouldn't be cause for you or others to be disrespectful or attacking towards me.

Sorry, but when u question why lifts had ice issues after this past event, you reveal that you don't know what you're talking about and just continuing your unrelenting attacks on the mtn. I wasn't attacking you personally, but the factual basis of your latest complaint.
I skied sb this weekend, and was none too pleased that my wife/daughter had a week of fresh snow, great conditions and no crowds whilst I was at the office, only to be greeted by freezing fookin r#%^^n upon my arrival. On top of that, 2 of my best ski buddies were in jh and whistler, respectively, and getting dumped on. But I don't go blaming the management, nor crying in general about the unfortunate weather. When ullr gives lemons, make lemonade. I actually had some pretty good runs on ripcord, sunrise, sleeper and especially moonshine. And that was after sitting on ice encrusted lift chairs.

HowieT2
02-23-2014, 07:57 PM
I definitely give the mountain a pass on icy days and windy days with withholds. Nothing the mountain can do on those days and it comes down to skier safety. As Howie said, if you are wondering if the ice reports are accurate allow me to assure you. They are.

Back to the original issue at hand though. Go look at Killington's condition report. Similar to ours about the ice, but notice anything different? They're turning the guns on again and blasting away to give skiers soft snow to take some turns on. I can guarantee very few soft turns at the Bush today and as the day progresses. That pretty much sums up my issue as it relates to the quantity side of the equation. Killington has their spring pass on sale now and I know quite a few SB season pass holders who bought one of those. That's money and revenue being spent down south as opposed to the valley on those weekends. Meanwhile our guns have been stored for the long term I'm sure. Can't be a water or air issue. It's finding the on switch.
Not surprising. Kton is committed to making snow this year. And sb rarely makes snow after presidents week. That's a mgmt decision.
Were they making snow this weekend??? Seemed a little warm for that.

angler
02-24-2014, 12:13 AM
Sorry, but when u question why lifts had ice issues after this past event, you reveal that you don't know what you're talking about and just continuing your unrelenting attacks on the mtn. I wasn't attacking you personally, but the factual basis of your latest complaint.
I skied sb this weekend, and was none too pleased that my wife/daughter had a week of fresh snow, great conditions and no crowds whilst I was at the office, only to be greeted by freezing fookin r#%^^n upon my arrival. On top of that, 2 of my best ski buddies were in jh and whistler, respectively, and getting dumped on. But I don't go blaming the management, nor crying in general about the unfortunate weather. When ullr gives lemons, make lemonade. I actually had some pretty good runs on ripcord, sunrise, sleeper and especially moonshine. And that was after sitting on ice encrusted lift chairs.

If you go back and read my post the first thing I said was I do understand ice events. I was wondering why other mountains weren't reporting the same problems. When I looked on the snow report for Stowe and Killington I didn't see the same issue being reported. After someone else pointed out that Killington and other mountains had the same issue I didn't say anything else about it. I wasn't attacking the mountain I was wondering if the ice event was only happening there as it didn't make sense to me. So to say I don't know what I am talking about, is you making this personal.

Even though I have issues with how the mountain has been run the past few years I have acknowledged that improvements have been made just not enough to be competitive compared to their competition. Thats an opinion just like your opinion, it has nothing to do with either one of us not knowing what we are talking about.

gostan
02-24-2014, 12:30 AM
Nothing personal about the ice on the lifts at Killington. Looks to me like it was, as it usually is , a PIA for all mountains.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38467#p523461

Ride Delaware ?
02-24-2014, 01:25 AM
Nothing personal about the ice on the lifts at Killington. Looks to me like it was, as it usually is , a PIA for all mountains.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38467#p523461
Absolutely. Everyone wants to talk about ideas to keep the lifts ice free by taking the chairs off the haul line and storing them etc, but your still going to have an icy haul rope and spacing issues. Short of having the haul rope heated and taking the chairs off, both of which would likely be cost and time prohibitive, we are just going to have to settle for delays/closures on icy days.

angler
02-24-2014, 08:16 AM
Nothing personal about the ice on the lifts at Killington. Looks to me like it was, as it usually is , a PIA for all mountains.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38467#p523461

It clearly was, neat pics.

HowieT2
02-24-2014, 04:28 PM
If you go back and read my post the first thing I said was I do understand ice events. I was wondering why other mountains weren't reporting the same problems. When I looked on the snow report for Stowe and Killington I didn't see the same issue being reported. After someone else pointed out that Killington and other mountains had the same issue I didn't say anything else about it. I wasn't attacking the mountain I was wondering if the ice event was only happening there as it didn't make sense to me. So to say I don't know what I am talking about, is you making this personal.

Even though I have issues with how the mountain has been run the past few years I have acknowledged that improvements have been made just not enough to be competitive compared to their competition. Thats an opinion just like your opinion, it has nothing to do with either one of us not knowing what we are talking about.

Im not looking to get into anything personal with you. hope we get some fresh snow this week and everyone is happy.

angler
02-24-2014, 05:56 PM
Im not looking to get into anything personal with you. hope we get some fresh snow this week and everyone is happy.

Hey, we are finally in agreement ;)

El Bishop
02-24-2014, 07:29 PM
Pretty funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTOcGTJd0#t=13

ThinkSno
02-25-2014, 12:49 AM
Thanks Howie! You made me laugh at this all over again. Good job!

Likewise! Just watched that video again, while in UT, shortly after having a Double-double, animal style, after skiing Solitude.

FYI, for anyone who is interested, UT appears to be in a snow deficit for this time of the year.

Favorite run at Alta (West Rustler, off the High Traverse) is partially brown due to lack of snow-- very disappointing.

NE has all the snow thus far this season, so we should count our blessings.

HowieT2
02-25-2014, 11:43 AM
Likewise! Just watched that video again, while in UT, shortly after having a Double-double, animal style, after skiing Solitude.

FYI, for anyone who is interested, UT appears to be in a snow deficit for this time of the year.

Favorite run at Alta (West Rustler, off the High Traverse) is partially brown due to lack of snow-- very disappointing.

NE has all the snow thus far this season, so we should count our blessings.

may i ask what a "double-double, animal style" is? or maybe I shouldnt ask.

fwiw-whistler and jh got dumped on last week. thinking the california mtns get theirs this week.

Hawk
02-25-2014, 12:12 PM
I can vouch for JH. Still snowing

djd66
02-25-2014, 02:06 PM
may i ask what a "double-double, animal style" is? or maybe I shouldnt ask.

fwiw-whistler and jh got dumped on last week. thinking the california mtns get theirs this week.


"double-double, animal style" - from In-N-Out Burger - West Coast Burger joint - the place is awesome - wish they had them here on the east coast.

HowieT2
02-25-2014, 02:36 PM
"double-double, animal style" - from In-N-Out Burger - West Coast Burger joint - the place is awesome - wish they had them here on the east coast.

ahhhhh. so ive heard, but never had the pleasure.

ThinkSno
02-25-2014, 10:23 PM
may i ask what a "double-double, animal style" is? or maybe I shouldnt ask.

fwiw-whistler and jh got dumped on last week. thinking the california mtns get theirs this week.

"Animal Style" is one of the most popular "secret" styles; in addition to the standard toppings, Animal Style burgers include pickles, extra spread, grilled onions, and mustard fried onto each meat patty.

"Double-double" indicates double meat, double cheese.

HowieT2
02-26-2014, 09:44 AM
"Animal Style" is one of the most popular "secret" styles; in addition to the standard toppings, Animal Style burgers include pickles, extra spread, grilled onions, and mustard fried onto each meat patty.

"Double-double" indicates double meat, double cheese.

im salivating

pcampbell
02-27-2014, 12:49 PM
haha............. how about a re-incarnation of Egan's Big World with local beef and VT cheddar , VT fries? someone get on that!

HowieT2
02-27-2014, 03:01 PM
I was little bored during a conference call and reviewed something that was gnawing at me. It was mentioned, either in this thread or somewhere else that the VH double replacement is not something we should expect to see soon. The notice from the forest service states as follows:

The removal would begin shortly after the end of the ski season in April or early May. Blasting is anticipated for the new unload area and the Valley House Traverse ski trail reconstruction. Some trees would be removed along the lift corridor (The Mall ski trail). These trees would be flush cut, no stump pulling, and left on site, pulled back from trail edge. Tree removal for the trail reconstruction would occur before May 1 or after August 1. Clearing, blasting and grading for the new lift components and trail reconstruction would occur late spring through October, 2014.

seems pretty clear to me that this is planned for this offseason.
also, upon review of the cover letter from the forest service, it seems that this project is not subject to environmental review/assesments.

Benski
02-27-2014, 04:38 PM
I was little bored during a conference call and reviewed something that was gnawing at me. It was mentioned, either in this thread or somewhere else that the VH double replacement is not something we should expect to see soon. The notice from the forest service states as follows:

The removal would begin shortly after the end of the ski season in April or early May. Blasting is anticipated for the new unload area and the Valley House Traverse ski trail reconstruction. Some trees would be removed along the lift corridor (The Mall ski trail). These trees would be flush cut, no stump pulling, and left on site, pulled back from trail edge. Tree removal for the trail reconstruction would occur before May 1 or after August 1. Clearing, blasting and grading for the new lift components and trail reconstruction would occur late spring through October, 2014.

seems pretty clear to me that this is planned for this offseason.
also, upon review of the cover letter from the forest service, it seems that this project is not subject to environmental review/assesments.

it is here. http://forums.skimrv.com/showthread.php/14324-Sugarbush-Files-with-USFS-to-upgrade-VH-to-a-Quad/page3

They might say 2014 so they have the option to start at the end of the season or delay it if they think it should wait another year.

jwt
02-28-2014, 06:30 AM
I was little bored during a conference call and reviewed something that was gnawing at me. It was mentioned, either in this thread or somewhere else that the VH double replacement is not something we should expect to see soon. The notice from the forest service states as follows:

The removal would begin shortly after the end of the ski season in April or early May. Blasting is anticipated for the new unload area and the Valley House Traverse ski trail reconstruction. Some trees would be removed along the lift corridor (The Mall ski trail). These trees would be flush cut, no stump pulling, and left on site, pulled back from trail edge. Tree removal for the trail reconstruction would occur before May 1 or after August 1. Clearing, blasting and grading for the new lift components and trail reconstruction would occur late spring through October, 2014.

seems pretty clear to me that this is planned for this offseason.
also, upon review of the cover letter from the forest service, it seems that this project is not subject to environmental review/assesments.

Might have been me Howie - Amazing if it happens as any sort of permitting regarding the environment generally takes years. Maybe, just maybe because it is on private land, not the National Forest -which starts above the top of VH chair.

Happy to be completely wrong n this case. Still wish regrading and extension to below Mushroom was the plan. But as Steven Wright likes to say: Can't have everything. . .where would you put it all?

Go Figure
02-28-2014, 08:12 AM
It would be nice if built sooner. VH broke down Sunday afternoon and was fixed on Monday so it should be good for the weekend.Unfortunately we seem to be stuck on the crappy Steins spring skiing venue[claybrook owners find it bothersome to travel to North and can't eat lodge food for lunch] and the faster quad will help move skiers up the hill. Now if we could get grilled goodies and a beer garden at VH it would be palatable [not Mad Taco like but better than Taco Bell]. Also enough snow on Snowball/Fling would help, but that is NEVER going to happen under the current budget. Village chair was down most of the day yesterday.

ps The lift is not going to Bravo so give it up.

angler
02-28-2014, 09:57 AM
They really need a top to bottom lift.

HowieT2
02-28-2014, 11:58 AM
They really need a top to bottom lift.

why?
I like the way the lift system is set up. I generally take 2 runs from the base, one in the morning and once after lunch.

HowieT2
02-28-2014, 12:12 PM
Might have been me Howie - Amazing if it happens as any sort of permitting regarding the environment generally takes years. Maybe, just maybe because it is on private land, not the National Forest -which starts above the top of VH chair.

Happy to be completely wrong n this case. Still wish regrading and extension to below Mushroom was the plan. But as Steven Wright likes to say: Can't have everything. . .where would you put it all?

The way I read the following excerpt from the forest service cover letter, they dont need the environmental assessments, at least for federal govt. dont know what that means for the state.

A recent court ruling (Sequoia Forest Keeper v. Tidwell, 11-cv-00679-LJO-DLB (E.D. Cal.)) requires
that actions that can be categorically excluded from an Environmental Assessment or Environmental
Impact Statement using categories found at 36 CFR 220.6(e) be subject to public notice, comment, and
opportunity for administrative appeal. This proposal can potentially be categorically excluded under 36
CFR 220.6(e)(1): “Construction and reconstruction of trails” and 220.6 (e)(2): Additional construction or
reconstruction of existing telephone or utility lines in a designated corridor. Therefore the decision for
this project proposal is subject to public notice, comment and opportunity for appeal in accordance with
36 CFR 215.

angler
02-28-2014, 03:34 PM
why?
I like the way the lift system is set up. I generally take 2 runs from the base, one in the morning and once after lunch.
Sometimes it nice just to go top to bottom without having to take two lifts. On the other hand it is nice having lifts that just handle certain sections of the mountain as it helps dispersing the crowd when they are all open.

Go Figure
03-02-2014, 09:54 AM
2% Yet again, Sunday, March 2nd - 9:50 AM

*** Heaven's Gate and Valley House are on maintenance delay. Hiking is open on Jester. ***

Dblshot
03-02-2014, 02:26 PM
But yesterday's "wind hold" on HG doesn't count toward the percentage.....parts probably taken from VH to get HG running. Please pay some real lift mechanics to come work here instead of letting them leave for other mountains. This is just getting to be too much. It's embarrassing.

angler
03-02-2014, 03:13 PM
But yesterday's "wind hold" on HG doesn't count toward the percentage.....parts probably taken from VH to get HG running. Please pay some real lift mechanics to come work here instead of letting them leave for other mountains. This is just getting to be too much. It's embarrassing.
Stop being a hater the lift system at SB is great .

HowieT2
03-02-2014, 08:24 PM
Ridiculous. I passed by the first time at 8:20 or so and they were already working on it. I'm sure they were trying but c'mon, skilled and experienced mechanics should be able to get a lift spinning in less than 5 hours. On the plus side personally, I got 2 runs of untouched powder on ripcord before hg opened, and then 6th chair when it spun after 1. The turns were sweet up there. Terrific day.

Hawk
03-03-2014, 07:56 AM
Back from JH. I'm totally spoiled. Super place, Tons of new snow, every lift worked every day all the time exept for Avi hold. The level of skiers there is sick. Everybody skis like Egan Brother! Legs totally spent, brain is cooked, spirits are high.

On a side note. They will never be able to start the VH this year. I am 99% sure that there will have to be a review of this project on a State and local level for approval. There has not even been a notice filed yet. Also they would have to be out to bid for the work and I have not heard anything about that. In the circles that I run, I would have heard about this. So do not expect the lift this year. That is my take.

Back next week to the Bush. It's good to be home. I need a vacation from my vacation.

Dblshot
03-03-2014, 08:57 AM
I still had a great day too of untracked in the woods but it is just getting old planning my day around lifts that are not running for mechanical reasons and no mention of lift issues at the hill. Updating the chalkboards in the corrals with lift issues would be greatly appreciated. I have no issues with lift system or layout. Just maintain them so they will be reliable and hire experienced mechanics to fix them when they break down.

HowieT2
03-03-2014, 09:53 AM
I still had a great day too of untracked in the woods but it is just getting old planning my day around lifts that are not running for mechanical reasons and no mention of lift issues at the hill. Updating the chalkboards in the corrals with lift issues would be greatly appreciated. I have no issues with lift system or layout. Just maintain them so they will be reliable and hire experienced mechanics to fix them when they break down.

totally agree. Frankly, I think they should consider giving those renewing season passes next season some sort of discount as a token of appreciation for what we have endured this season.

Hawk
03-03-2014, 09:58 AM
Now that is a great idea. :-)

totally agree. Frankly, I think they should consider giving those renewing season passes next season some sort of discount as a token of appreciation for what we have endured this season.

HowieT2
03-03-2014, 10:02 AM
Back from JH. I'm totally spoiled. Super place, Tons of new snow, every lift worked every day all the time exept for Avi hold. The level of skiers there is sick. Everybody skis like Egan Brother! Legs totally spent, brain is cooked, spirits are high.

On a side note. They will never be able to start the VH this year. I am 99% sure that there will have to be a review of this project on a State and local level for approval. There has not even been a notice filed yet. Also they would have to be out to bid for the work and I have not heard anything about that. In the circles that I run, I would have heard about this. So do not expect the lift this year. That is my take.

Back next week to the Bush. It's good to be home. I need a vacation from my vacation.

Glad to hear you hit it right with the snow in JH. Its all about fresh pow and thats always an issue even out west. You deserved it after last years trip. I have buddies heading there wednesday so I hope you left some for them. also hope you're wrong about the timing of the VH replacement, but cant argue with your logic. Given that lift replacements are common, one would think that there is an established procedure.

Go Figure
03-04-2014, 10:25 AM
Tuesday, March 4th - 10:00 AM

**Slidebrook is on maintenance delay**

win
03-04-2014, 02:54 PM
Don't you think it makes sense to do some maintenance on a sheave on a weekday on a day when SB would have been delayed anyway due to the cold? Love the comment about HG not getting fixed faster. You guys should work as a lift mechanic and understand what reallly goes on. It is not always easy to identify a problem. When wind rips a wire from a tower which is what happened Saturday night, it can take time to find and then repari it.

HowieT2
03-04-2014, 03:47 PM
Don't you think it makes sense to do some maintenance on a sheave on a weekday on a day when SB would have been delayed anyway due to the cold? Love the comment about HG not getting fixed faster. You guys should work as a lift mechanic and understand what reallly goes on. It is not always easy to identify a problem. When wind rips a wire from a tower which is what happened Saturday night, it can take time to find and then repari it.

Huh, I was amongst the first chairs going up HG on sunday, I noticed footprints in the snow to one of the towers and we commented "wonder what that was about". I've been accused around here of having rose colored glasses, so forgive me if it has appeared that there have been an unusual amount of mechanical issues with the lifts this season, and that said issues have taken an unusual amount of time to repair. Could it be dumb luck? sure, but you are aware that the "word" around town is that there was significant turnover in the lift maintenance crew after last season. I don't know if that's true or not, or whether that has anything to do with the lift situation. I don't know if u care to address that or not. It would be great, however, if you could tell us when the VH replacement is likely to occur. Thanks.
also, while we're at it, IIRC, prior to this season, the SBX only ran on weekends and holidays. why did u decide to run it all the time and is that what we can expect in the future???

Spartan82
03-04-2014, 03:48 PM
LP was surprisingly not crowded on Sunday (with the exception of Castlerock, but that is always an issue on weekends due to the distance between chairs and the speed of the lift). When I went by Heaven's Gate around 10:00 and saw that it was down, as well as Valley House, I thought we were in for a tough day in lift lines. It did not turn out that way.

Dblshot
03-04-2014, 04:26 PM
I would have to say the lift line at Bravo on Sunday was quite long and that VH was on loan to HG didn't help either. At least here is a bus to Mt Ellen....With the VH replacement, are the towers going to be low like the existing ones to stay below the tree (wind) line or are they going to be significantly taller? I would hope the cable would be at the same height, I don't think a quad chair is any taller than a double chair. IMO that is one of the best features about VH.

win
03-10-2014, 12:23 PM
The Firday night wind tore off a wire on one of the towers. It is not always easy to identify which wire and requires climbing the towers to find it. Once found the fix is quick.

The new VH lift will keep the towers as low as possible to protect it from the wind. The unload will also be lower to make it less susceptible than the current lift is.

The plan is to run SB every day we can. It really moves people around and ME is so underutilized midweek.

Hawk
03-10-2014, 03:15 PM
Well this past weekend was great as far as the lifts. They all seemed to spin consistently. Can't wait for the new snow this week. If it all holds together, this coming weekend should be the best of the season.

HowieT2
03-10-2014, 03:44 PM
The Firday night wind tore off a wire on one of the towers. It is not always easy to identify which wire and requires climbing the towers to find it. Once found the fix is quick.

The new VH lift will keep the towers as low as possible to protect it from the wind. The unload will also be lower to make it less susceptible than the current lift is.

The plan is to run SB every day we can. It really moves people around and ME is so underutilized midweek.

and the new VH lift is anticipated to be installed when?????

MntMan4Bush
03-11-2014, 08:00 AM
Well last weekend there was a brief period of long lines at SB and GH, but they soon dispersed so it was probably just a timing issue of people coming out. Though I was surprised at how quickly the lots filled up and the Employee Lot was being used. Of course I did make it a bit later than normal that day. Maybe that's the punishment. In any case from what I saw a weekend with no closures/issues. Good job. Let's build on it.

Even as one of the most critical of SB as of lately (When a lift stops you no longer get the benefit of the doubt and I assume the worst. Sorry SB. You earned it recently) even I cannot find fault in doing maintenance on a Tuesday. When else should it be done? That is exactly when and it's nice to hear SB is running mid week too. That may be nice for this upcoming storm.

Trust me. I'll be the first to get on the Bush about problems that are a result of poor planning, negligence or penny pinching (looking at you snow making), but not today. Regular maintenance before an issue occurs and planned for an off peak time is well done.

I could care less of the when on the VD. I actually like the lift and I think it's crusty look keeps others off it (and the hike up) while I use it to avoid SB lines. What I would love to see is the snow making improvement plan that I've made up in my head that Win has that is comparable to Stowe, but maybe a bit longer to implement. Oh and them saying that next year quad packs will either be gone or cut off at an amount less than what was sold this year, but I doubt that will happen.

angler
03-11-2014, 08:33 AM
Well last weekend there was a brief period of long lines at SB and GH, but they soon dispersed so it was probably just a timing issue of people coming out. Though I was surprised at how quickly the lots filled up and the Employee Lot was being used. Of course I did make it a bit later than normal that day. Maybe that's the punishment. In any case from what I saw a weekend with no closures/issues. Good job. Let's build on it.

Even as one of the most critical of SB as of lately (When a lift stops you no longer get the benefit of the doubt and I assume the worst. Sorry SB. You earned it recently) even I cannot find fault in doing maintenance on a Tuesday. When else should it be done? That is exactly when and it's nice to hear SB is running mid week too. That may be nice for this upcoming storm.

Trust me. I'll be the first to get on the Bush about problems that are a result of poor planning, negligence or penny pinching (looking at you snow making), but not today. Regular maintenance before an issue occurs and planned for an off peak time is well done.

I could care less of the when on the VD. I actually like the lift and I think it's crusty look keeps others off it (and the hike up) while I use it to avoid SB lines. What I would love to see is the snow making improvement plan that I've made up in my head that Win has that is comparable to Stowe, but maybe a bit longer to implement. Oh and them saying that next year quad packs will either be gone or cut off at an amount less than what was sold this year, but I doubt that will happen.

I would agree, I don't think SB will limit the quad pack as its seems to be a important part of their cash flow at this time. With that being said I would rather see improvements to the snow making before a new lift as well. Quality snow making becomes the foundation for the whole season. No different then making sure you have a solid foundation before putting up the 2 x 4's on a building. Would love to hear the plans on this aspect of the operations.

Go Figure
03-11-2014, 09:55 AM
Well this past weekend was great as far as the lifts. They all seemed to spin consistently. Can't wait for the new snow this week. If it all holds together, this coming weekend should be the best of the season.

Not entirely true, Super B did not load anyone till 8:15 and The clay brook elite had to wait with the Peasants without their special time on the hill. And on two different trips up on SB it stopped then false started [one time around 8-10 times] before catching and slowly speeding up.

HowieT2
03-11-2014, 04:05 PM
Not entirely true, Super B did not load anyone till 8:15 and The clay brook elite had to wait with the Peasants without their special time on the hill. And on two different trips up on SB it stopped then false started [one time around 8-10 times] before catching and slowly speeding up.

r we not being a bit hypercritical in reporting every time a lift has to stop temporarily. I mean, people do fall and sometimes they have to load stuff onto a chair. and the claybrook bashing is going a bit far too imho. they have their privileges, like them or not, but it is the way it is.

My opinion is I'd rather see the vh replacement before any other capital improvement. I think its that big a deal. I assume from Win's silence that it is not something we should expect next season, which is disappointing.

fwiw-there was some discussion earlier about the snowmaking crew being laid off early. I heard this weekend, that they were in fact let go a week earlier than usual, but that it was due to the fact that they had emptied the snowmaking pond fighting the fire at the mountainside condos. either way, in retrospect, I dont think anyone can complain about the conditions since 2/14 and with whats coming from mother nature, making snow the last couple of weeks would have been throwing money down the drain. kudos to killington for doing so, but it doesnt bother me.

Go Figure
03-13-2014, 06:52 AM
Read first. Bravo was not running at it's usual Sunday start time of 6:30 -7 nor did it load anyone until approx 8:15. That means it was being repaired, again. And the stops for whatever were punctuated by a series of false starts which is not normal.

Also last I checked this is still America which means if I want to complain about clay brook elitist linecutting, that's what I'll do. OK? I have been here since 82 and this is the most "unlocal" load of crap enacted by any owner.

And there is plenty of water in the pond, the 1000 gallons an hour the firefighters were using is not the max. the system can handle. If there is a lack of water in the pond currently it is because it is not being refilled.

Don't get lost in Jerusalem.




r we not being a bit hypercritical in reporting every time a lift has to stop temporarily. I mean, people do fall and sometimes they have to load stuff onto a chair. and the claybrook bashing is going a bit far too imho. they have their privileges, like them or not, but it is the way it is.

My opinion is I'd rather see the vh replacement before any other capital improvement. I think its that big a deal. I assume from Win's silence that it is not something we should expect next season, which is disappointing.

fwiw-there was some discussion earlier about the snowmaking crew being laid off early. I heard this weekend, that they were in fact let go a week earlier than usual, but that it was due to the fact that they had emptied the snowmaking pond fighting the fire at the mountainside condos. either way, in retrospect, I dont think anyone can complain about the conditions since 2/14 and with whats coming from mother nature, making snow the last couple of weeks would have been throwing money down the drain. kudos to killington for doing so, but it doesnt bother me.

win
03-13-2014, 04:21 PM
Go Figure,

I think you would be happier figuring it out elsewhere. Happy to refund your pass.

HowieT2
03-13-2014, 09:40 PM
Read first. Bravo was not running at it's usual Sunday start time of 6:30 -7 nor did it load anyone until approx 8:15. That means it was being repaired, again. And the stops for whatever were punctuated by a series of false starts which is not normal.

Also last I checked this is still America which means if I want to complain about clay brook elitist linecutting, that's what I'll do. OK? I have been here since 82 and this is the most "unlocal" load of crap enacted by any owner.

And there is plenty of water in the pond, the 1000 gallons an hour the firefighters were using is not the max. the system can handle. If there is a lack of water in the pond currently it is because it is not being refilled.

Don't get lost in Jerusalem.

You certainly have a right to complain especially since you've been coming here since I was in middle school. But I think you also have to realize that in this day and age, these kind of preferential treatments are commonplace whether it be on airplane, at an amusement park, mlb game, concerts, etc.etc. The list is endless. I'm not arguing right or wrong, just saying it's the way it is everywhere. So it's not like they have foisted this unheard of affront to equality.

ThinkSno
03-13-2014, 11:28 PM
I'm not arguing right or wrong, just saying it's the way it is everywhere. So it's not like they have foisted this unheard of affront to equality.

True, but it used to be "Peace, Love & a ton of Snow."

Instead it appears to now be, "Be Better Here" ....Mind stepping aside? Thanks. We're Better.

ThinkSno
03-13-2014, 11:32 PM
Go Figure,

I think you would be happier figuring it out elsewhere. Happy to refund your pass.

Harsh words

Go Figure-- Right on!!

angler
03-14-2014, 08:27 AM
Go Figure,

I think you would be happier figuring it out elsewhere. Happy to refund your pass.

Thin skinned are we? Maybe there is truth in some of the criticisms posted here. Just a thought......

Hawk
03-16-2014, 07:21 AM
I'm not arguing right or wrong, just saying it's the way it is everywhere. So it's not like they have foisted this unheard of affront to equality.

This is truly a shame because we used to pride our selves for being not like everybody else. It will never sit well with me that these people get to cut the line on powder days. Half of them can't even really ski pow. It's a waste. That is all I have to say. Not wasting my time with this any more.

djd66
03-16-2014, 07:44 PM
This is truly a shame because we used to pride our selves for being not like everybody else. It will never sit well with me that these people get to cut the line on powder days. Half of them can't even really ski pow. It's a waste. That is all I have to say. Not wasting my time with this any more.

First of all,,,. Let's stop this revisionist history. This place was called mascara mountain long before peace and love. Second, I personally have never even seen a Claybrook owner cutting the line and if I did,... who fricken cares. If this really bothers you - maybe you should work hard, save your money and buy a Claybrook condo.

ducky
03-16-2014, 07:49 PM
Why do Blazers get to cut the line?

Hawk
03-17-2014, 06:43 AM
First of all,,,. Let's stop this revisionist history. This place was called mascara mountain long before peace and love. Second, I personally have never even seen a Claybrook owner cutting the line and if I did,... who fricken cares. If this really bothers you - maybe you should work hard, save your money and buy a Claybrook condo.

Hey you obviously don't like what I have to say and really do not like me in general. Fine by me. Save my money and buy a $250K quarter share? Not a chance. I get the feeling that some of these owners may be your friends and that would explain a lot. Hell you might even be an owner. Either way it is how I feel and it's not going to change. Your revisionist history comment makes absolutley no sense in the context of how i feel about the early morning powder fests and the daily line cutting. Correct me if I am wrong but don't they get a special pass that allows them to get in line with the ski school? This was never the case at this mountain until the the Claybrook was built. I also have a solution to it. Skinning. Costs me very little and I get the same results.

Oh and by the way you are in the minority of people who don't care. There are many of us that do. We will never change the policy but that does not mean that we have to like it.

Benski
03-17-2014, 08:16 AM
Why do Blazers get to cut the line?

They pay extra to ski not wait in line


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ski_resort_observer
03-17-2014, 08:28 AM
Check out the reviews about how great Sugarbush is....
https://www.facebook.com/Sugarbush.VT

Peace, love and a ton of snow was ASC's logo line...if ya think the Bush was better under their ownership you weren't there.

Ski School's, Patrol, VIP's have been cutting lines for centuries, at most every resort...get over it.

Every business has issues, if you have run or owned a business, you know that. The Bush has a business plan and they have a right to follow it.

So much misinformation is being passed on this forum as fact it's become entertaining. Sometimes frontline staff does not have all the facts, again, this is at any business not just at the Bush.

I wish some of you guys could just enjoy the great late season skiing and riding.

MorningWoods
03-17-2014, 09:11 AM
Hey you obviously don't like what I have to say and really do not like me in general. Fine by me. Save my money and buy a $250K quarter share? Not a chance. I get the feeling that some of these owners may be your friends and that would explain a lot. Hell you might even be an owner. Either way it is how I feel and it's not going to change. Your revisionist history comment makes absolutley no sense in the context of how i feel about the early morning powder fests and the daily line cutting. Correct me if I am wrong but don't they get a special pass that allows them to get in line with the ski school? This was never the case at this mountain until the the Claybrook was built. I also have a solution to it. Skinning. Costs me very little and I get the same results.

Oh and by the way you are in the minority of people who don't care. There are many of us that do. We will never change the policy but that does not mean that we have to like it.

You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I agree with djd66. In fact, I would venture to guess most people In line don't even know about it. I think it's your opinion that's the minority. Who cares where he lives and who he is friends with.


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ThinkSno
03-17-2014, 10:22 AM
So much misinformation is being passed on this forum as fact it's become entertaining.

Very entertaining indeed.

Hawk
03-17-2014, 12:16 PM
You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I agree with djd66. In fact, I would venture to guess most people In line don't even know about it. I think it's your opinion that's the minority. Who cares where he lives and who he is friends with.


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OK then, I will rephrase it becasue their is a chance that I may have over generalized a small amount. I will give you that. The way I am seeing it is everybody that I ski with thinks the same way. (Well maybe not Howie) That is the better part of 200-300 people. So when I am standing at the lift at 7:15 - 7:30 in great position, surrounded by people that I know, it sucks to watch everybody lap the lift. In my little part of the MRV we have the same opinion. Maybe in your world it is the opposite. Also If DJD66 has friends or lives at Claybrook he would have a vastly different opinion. Maybe he doesn't. Either way it is total BullSH*$. I can understand that you guys don't care. That is great. But I do and that is fine also.
Over and out.

MorningWoods
03-17-2014, 01:19 PM
Very entertaining indeed.

+1.


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shadyjay
03-17-2014, 04:01 PM
Regarding the 7:30am "First Trackers", they are on a guided tour. They all go down the same trail. There are 111 trails on the mountain to enjoy. They are (at least every time I've seen them) going down trails. On a powder day, are you all riding the trails or the woods? It's not like they're getting free-reign of the whole mountain a full 30 minutes before lifts open. I don't see the "first trackers" going into Gangsta's or sneaking into Paradise. But again, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Just don't assume that 30 people are going up Bravo, being turned loose on any trail, then meeting at the bottom to do it again.

Don't forget about the cabin cat first tracks.... (though I haven't seen it mentioned alot this season, perhaps with lack of early morning pow). Anyone can sign up for that when it is offered. Yeah, it costs some $, but worth it for an early untouched run(s).

And finally, I agree with s_r_o's comments... there are some great conditions out there and with these temps, the snow's going nowhere fast. Get out there and enjoy it!!!!!!

djd66
03-17-2014, 08:08 PM
OK then, I will rephrase it becasue their is a chance that I may have over generalized a small amount. I will give you that. The way I am seeing it is everybody that I ski with thinks the same way. (Well maybe not Howie) That is the better part of 200-300 people. So when I am standing at the lift at 7:15 - 7:30 in great position, surrounded by people that I know, it sucks to watch everybody lap the lift. In my little part of the MRV we have the same opinion. Maybe in your world it is the opposite. Also If DJD66 has friends or lives at Claybrook he would have a vastly different opinion. Maybe he doesn't. Either way it is total BullSH*$. I can understand that you guys don't care. That is great. But I do and that is fine also.
Over and out.

Just to clear up any question you might have. 1) I don't own a place at Claybrook 2) I do not have any friends that own at Claybrook 3) I don't even know anyone that owns at Claybrook. 4) I am not part of a vast PR conspiracy. Everyone I ski with enjoys that fact that we have nice lodges to go to and we have an owner committed to making Sugarbush a great place for families to ski in the winter. Call me a Kool Aid drinker - but have you ever gotten a letter from the owner of a business directly addressing business problems and how they will be fixed? (Referring to the letter Win sent out to everyone a few weeks back) I have not.

Hawk, I have no idea who you are and have nothing against you personally. What I have issue with is how you and lot of people on this board complain about some BS issues. 90% of your posts this year have been a rant on the mountain and the management. I still have not seen anyone cutting me in line with a Claybrook pass - I have taken 1000's of rides up the chairlift. Please tell me - where is this happening? Why is it I have never seen a Claybrook pass holder utilizing the ski school line? Again (my opinion ) who the f*^% cares? I would say 99% of SB skiers don't care,... This one included.

Hawk
03-18-2014, 06:41 AM
OK then I get it. I have said my peice and I am done. We both feel stongly about our positions. I will agree that this has been too much. Spring skiing is around the corner and all will be behind us shortly. I guess I get caught up in this but I obviously feel stongly as you do. It is totally clear that the circles that we both run it are very different.

Dblshot
03-25-2014, 01:51 PM
Not to get all negative again but another motor? Yikes. ***Heaven's Gate terrain will be open for hiking access only from 10:00 AM-2:00 PM through Thursday until a new lift motor is installed. Heaven's Gate is schedule to spin by Friday.***

Hawk
03-25-2014, 04:36 PM
Nothing to see here......Move along.

angler
03-25-2014, 05:44 PM
Not to get all negative again but another motor? Yikes. ***Heaven's Gate terrain will be open for hiking access only from 10:00 AM-2:00 PM through Thursday until a new lift motor is installed. Heaven's Gate is schedule to spin by Friday.***

Its hard to believe that all the wind hold on HG last week wasn't mechanical as well. Not saying that it wasn't windy.... I would replace HG before VD. Getting to the top of the mountain is essential for the lift lines.

Dblshot
03-25-2014, 06:15 PM
I would tend to agree but I think blowing multiple motors in one season has to more do with the people working on the lift than age of the lift. I hope it can be ready for Saturday, never a crowd on pond skimming weekend.....

angler
03-25-2014, 06:29 PM
I hope so. It seems like it goes on wind hold a lot even when there isn't mechanical issues. I wonder if there is a way for them to reposition the lift so it can stay open on a consistent basis. Without that, lift the lines get stupid especially when there is no snow in the beginning of the season and CR isn't open.

Benski
03-25-2014, 07:03 PM
Its hard to believe that all the wind hold on HG last week wasn't mechanical as well. Not saying that it wasn't windy.... I would replace HG before VD. Getting to the top of the mountain is essential for the lift lines.

No doubt it was windy enough to put the lift on windhold. North linx was down most of the day and some other lifts were close to going on wind-hold. Where you even skiing that day?

MntMan4Bush
03-25-2014, 07:28 PM
I rode up HG just before it shut down and they had a guy standing on the platform watching the chairs. The wind was directly in the face, for which they usually let the lift run in higher winds, and I'm no expert, but even I'd say it was warranted. I think they pulled the old "wind hold" card for mechanical reasons too many times before and now it;s coming back to bite them with people doubting actual wind holds.

Again as someone who has set their Kool Aid aside for the moment I think it was legit and we have to trust their judgement on calls like that. They did reopen before the end of the day which didn't do much with liftlines as the crowds were dwindling,but it was a nice touch to see they hadn't given up on the day yet in lift ops because I sure hadn't and a trip through SB to finish the day was a nice touch.

Since this is the thread where we do talk about the issues a bit more I will add that on Sunday I was there for first chair and when we got back down SB was down for electrical issues. (Head the reason come in over someone's radio). It was pretty quick though. No more than 5 minutes and a crowd hadn't really formed yet. Knowing it was going down though we did stop at VD to see if it would spin early and of course that wasn't happening. Again only 5 minutes so no big deal and can't really get up in arms over it.

However as coincidence would have it was also there for first HG chair and right before they lifted the gate it stopped for about 5 minutes. It did open on time though or only a minute late so again no big deal. What I did find funny though was a patroler was nearby and when it went down he laughingly said "typical".

To be honest that made me feel better about the whole thing. I'm tired of all this "everything is great here" mentality. Win's post a while back on the official website was good to hear, but up until then it was all "life is great" and haven't heard much since. Hearing an honest reaction from the patroller to it all, and not a gripe, but a joke about it, kind of reminds me we're all on the same team here. So maybe instead of all this "I'll refund our money and you can go elsewhere" attitude let's not all think that just because we have snow it magically fixed everything apart from the loneliness the few snowflakes that fell earlier in the season felt.

angler
03-25-2014, 09:42 PM
No doubt it was windy enough to put the lift on windhold. North linx was down most of the day and some other lifts were close to going on wind-hold. Where you even skiing that day?
As a matter of fact I was. I am referring to all the days last week when the lift was down. When it first opened after the wind hold one of my friends got stuck on the lift for 30 minutes or so do to mechanical issues. My point is that the problems with HG is more then wind hold at times.

flakeydog
03-28-2014, 02:06 PM
Any word on if we have Heaven's Gate open for tomorrow? Just trying to plan. I know it is on wind hold today just no comments on the ski report as to if the motor fix will be ready for tomorrow or not.

angler
03-28-2014, 05:12 PM
The way the year has gone 50-50 chance........

shadyjay
03-28-2014, 07:46 PM
Motor's fixed.... would've spun today (Friday) except for extremely high winds. We'll try again tomorrow.

Ride Delaware ?
03-28-2014, 07:55 PM
Motor's fixed.... would've spun today (Friday) except for extremely high winds. We'll try again tomorrow.
Looks like it's going to be another windy weekend.

flakeydog
03-28-2014, 08:04 PM
Shady- thanks for the info, just what I was looking for.

Angler- keep up the good work on the FUD perspective.

shadyjay
03-28-2014, 08:38 PM
Page 18 of the current SUGARBUSH magazine has a detailed article about wind and its effect on the chairs/lift. One of the top comments we get when a lift is on windhold is .... "It's not windy down here". Just remember some of the details in this article.

Here's a link to the article:

http://issuu.com/sugarbushresort/docs/sugarbushmagazine-winter201314/21?e=6607983/5127967

angler
03-28-2014, 08:38 PM
Shady- thanks for the info, just what I was looking for.

Angler- keep up the good work on the FUD perspective.

OH, I must have forgotten how well the lifts ran this year. But I do appreciate your complement and words of encouragement!

southvillager
03-30-2014, 06:58 AM
It never seems to end:

*** Gate House will be the early lift at Lincoln Peak, GMX is on maintenance delay. Summit lift is on windhold. Sunny D lift is closed for the day, due to maintenance. ***

Benski
03-30-2014, 08:07 AM
Probebly icing on super bravo and gmx. I don't remember a mount ellan lift being down for more than a hour since December.


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shadyjay
03-30-2014, 02:12 PM
Icing indeed... GMX and Bravo both did open, albeit an hour or so later than scheduled. SBX and NRX did not operate due to icing as well. Both were really not needed due to the lack of crowds today. Wet at the base and frozen up top. Heard reports of 4" of ice at the Mt Ellen summit.

HowieT2
03-30-2014, 05:39 PM
I bailed today. Hate rain. Hate ice cold rain even more.

pcampbell
03-30-2014, 06:01 PM
I hiked up MRG (which was also closed to the summit) and it was either hard ice, which was ski-able but not fun, or just soft enough for you to break through the crust at which point you were locked into whatever direction you were headed and very difficult to get out. A little scary. From the mid and down was fine (soft). So... lift status or not I don't think it was a day to ski up high today.

mountainsider
03-30-2014, 06:38 PM
No reason to go above the top of super bravo today. Icy too just about the top of Steins. The rest sounded horrible but skied sweet. First time in over 30 years of skiing that I encountered fresh fallen corn snow. Yes I got very wet.


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Hawk
03-31-2014, 07:49 AM
I guess you forgot about the Northridge being down a bunch in the early going over there.

Probebly icing on super bravo and gmx. I don't remember a mount ellan lift being down for more than a hour since December.


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Chewbarka
03-31-2014, 08:56 AM
Believe it or not, Sunday was a top ten ski day! At least for snowboards. The top of Bravo was just teetering on the edge of icy, can't imagine what it was like higher up. The 2" - 3" of dense snow stuff that came down over night bonded perfectly to the snow underneath. Started the day around 11:30, hardly raining at this point and rode thru to lift close. The woods were completely untracked and as long as you carried good speed, the surfing on top of all the snow was remarkable! The two of us had freshie after freshie all over the mtn with Domino Woods being the best by far. Had to pull out just before the lower traverse as the snow was too punky down low, but it was feet deep of surfing delight! It was great to have a weekend day without the people. What a super weekend!

Benski
03-31-2014, 09:07 AM
I guess you forgot about the Northridge being down a bunch in the early going over there.

That was the first week mount ellan was open.


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southvillager
03-31-2014, 11:25 AM
Again...

Monday, March 31st - 11:30 AM

** Super Bravo is on maintenance delay **

Hawk
03-31-2014, 11:31 AM
Yes it was early. It was more than a week though. I only know because we refused to go over there and ski until that lift was running.

That was the first week mount ellan was open.


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pcampbell
03-31-2014, 12:41 PM
I need some fatter boards maybe. Dropped through crust yesterday up top and almost couldn't turn out of it, that was MRG up top yesterday.

this morning "at least" it's all ice, over at Mt Ellen up top- had to side step a good portion even with skins to get up. Below mid station is more ski-able but still pretty darn firm.



eventually this will be great spring skiing though.

angler
04-01-2014, 05:55 AM
Again...

Monday, March 31st - 11:30 AM

** Super Bravo is on maintenance delay **

Welcome to the dark side, but don't worry "all is good in wonderland."

ducky
04-01-2014, 06:33 AM
Welcome to the dark side, but don't worry "all is good in wonderland."

Just wondering but were you actually here at the mountain yesterday? Drizzle all Sunday followed by freezing drizzle Sunday night into Monday - everything was covered in ice.

HowieT2
04-01-2014, 07:27 AM
Welcome to the dark side, but don't worry "all is good in wonderland."

Jeesus, man. Give it a rest. Talk about beating a dead horse. It's April. We got your point in January. You have something new to add, please do, but when I read these posts, I want to punch you in the face.

Go Figure
04-01-2014, 07:58 AM
Probebly icing on super bravo and gmx. I don't remember a mount ellan lift being down for more than a hour since December.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lets not forget the great Summit debacle. I guess you were not around when the Summit chair was torn apart to take a bearing out of the drive. Why was this done? It was deemed more important to fix the HG lift to get all mountain skiers to their summit, north only pass holders could hike the shorter distance from the top of Northridge [as long as it was running] to their summit.

I guess if Mother Merrill has a favorite son it is Lincoln.


Jeesus, man. Give it a rest. Talk about beating a dead horse. It's April. We got your point in January. You have something new to add, please do, but when I read these posts, I want to punch you in the face.

Way to bring physical violence to the party. Keep up the good work.

Hawk
04-01-2014, 08:49 AM
I think he is not ready to let them off the hook as many people have. I for one will not give them a pass for this year but will give them until next year to see if anything is done to fix the problems. If next year we have more of the same, well then something will have to be done.

And for the cool-aid drinkers, if you think that this year was fine, you guys obviously have very low standards. They can do better.

HowieT2
04-01-2014, 10:07 AM
I think he is not ready to let them off the hook as many people have. I for one will not give them a pass for this year but will give them until next year to see if anything is done to fix the problems. If next year we have more of the same, well then something will have to be done.

And for the cool-aid drinkers, if you think that this year was fine, you guys obviously have very low standards. They can do better.

Its not a matter of giving anyone a pass or drinking any cool aid. No one, not even Win, has argued that the lift operations this season were acceptable. Win conceded that they have to put money into the lifts before next season. Ok? we all get it. no one is arguing to the contrary. To keep posting the same thing is annoying. the horse died long ago.

Hawk
04-01-2014, 10:10 AM
That is sad. I didn't know the horse died. I didn't even know his name.

angler
04-01-2014, 01:17 PM
Jeesus, man. Give it a rest. Talk about beating a dead horse. It's April. We got your point in January. You have something new to add, please do, but when I read these posts, I want to punch you in the face.

Maybe you should take some anger management courses as there isn't anyone I know that would want to punch anyone in the face for posting on a forum.

djd66
04-01-2014, 01:57 PM
Maybe you should take some anger management courses as there isn't anyone I know that would want to punch anyone in the face for posting on a forum.

Maybe you need some Prozac.

Personally, myself and a lot of other people on this board have gotten sick + tired of all the negativity that comes from your keyboard. We get it - you don't like Win. It has gotten to be a complete joke and pretty much every one of your comments is bashing Sugarbush management in someway. Your posts are so predictable - i pretty much know what they are going to say before i even click. I cant imagine what it would be like to ski with you. Enough is enough dude.