A Great Mountain

[HowieT2]

Maybe you should take some anger management courses as there isn't anyone I know that would want to punch anyone in the face for posting on a forum.


All you do is come on this board and complain, whine and bitch about the same thing over and over and over again. If there was a moderator, you would have been banned long ago.

[angler]

Maybe you need some Prozac.

Personally, myself and a lot of other people on this board have gotten sick + tired of all the negativity that comes from your keyboard. We get it - you don't like Win. It has gotten to be a complete joke and pretty much every one of your comments is bashing Sugarbush management in someway. Your posts are so predictable - i pretty much know what they are going to say before i even click. I cant imagine what it would be like to ski with you. Enough is enough dude.

I find it interesting how some people on this forum including yourself feel the need to demonize. Not sure why you would make an assumption that I don't like Win. I don't know him to like or dislike him. My observations are not personal they are based on how the mountain is managed. Knowing that I am going to get flamed for this I will still say it anyway. Even the letter that went out regarding "taking responsibility" for the events that happened this season really was disguised behind the fact that mother nature didn't cooperate. If you really read the letter the essence was without mother nature you can't open all the lifts. Without all the lifts open the mountain can't handle the crowds and the snow making trails can't handle the pressure. Thats been my point all along. So if you are management and you know from the past few years that you can't depend on mother nature then you need to address it. The letter really only spoke to lift maintenance. In my world thats not taking 100% ownership and responsibility for the issues at hand. I guess we just have different expectations. Just because mother nature showed to the party and dumped 6ft of snow in the month of March does not change the structural issues at hand.
P.S.
You don't ever have to worry about skiing with me as the people in my world don't threaten to punch people in the face or tell people that they never meet that they need drugs. Maybe the people that get so angry over posting on this forum might take a look in the mirror. Just a thought..................

[Plowboy]

That is sad. I didn't know the horse died. I didn't even know his name.

Funny, the original name for the Super Bravo chair was Sugar Bravo...named after Roy Cohen's(SB owner @ the time) race horse!!!!

[Plowboy]

So this is the bitch thread.....BFD....if some of you don't like it don't read it!!!!!!!

[Hawk]

Funny, the original name for the Super Bravo chair was Sugar Bravo...named after Roy Cohen's(SB owner @ the time) race horse!!!!

Wow, now that is ironic. Good Trivia Plowboy. That one I never knew.

[Hawk]

I can't blame Angler. I feel the same way. I am not quite as vocal about it but I agree with some of what he is saying. I have no idea who he is but I would ski with him. Hell I ski with anybody. ;-)

[Plowboy]

Oh yeah.... the Sunny D was closed for maintenance on Sunday...the last official day for the Park.....nice 1!!! Talk about a chair that needs replacing?????? T-Bar??????

[angler]

All you do is come on this board and complain, whine and bitch about the same thing over and over and over again. If there was a moderator, you would have been banned long ago.
Seriously, This coming from a person who threatens to punch someone?

[HowieT2]

Seriously, This coming from a person who threatens to punch someone?

Reading comprehension not your strong suit?
I said your posts make me want to punch you. I didn't threaten to do so. Trying to explain how annoying your agenda is, but you obviously don't care.

[HowieT2]

I can't blame Angler. I feel the same way. I am not quite as vocal about it but I agree with some of what he is saying. I have no idea who he is but I would ski with him. Hell I ski with anybody. ;-)

The difference is, you contribute to the discourse on here about all topics, good, bad and ugly. When u say something, there is legitimacy to it. He is only here to complain about the lifts incessantly all season.
I think we all feel the same way. I bet win feels the same way. Lift operations were unacceptable. But like I said, at some point, you just gotta stop beating a dead horse. And a decent human being would take the hint that he is being annoying and stfu already.

[HowieT2]

I find it interesting how some people on this forum including yourself feel the need to demonize. Not sure why you would make an assumption that I don't like Win. I don't know him to like or dislike him. My observations are not personal they are based on how the mountain is managed. Knowing that I am going to get flamed for this I will still say it anyway. Even the letter that went out regarding "taking responsibility" for the events that happened this season really was disguised behind the fact that mother nature didn't cooperate. If you really read the letter the essence was without mother nature you can't open all the lifts. Without all the lifts open the mountain can't handle the crowds and the snow making trails can't handle the pressure. Thats been my point all along. So if you are management and you know from the past few years that you can't depend on mother nature then you need to address it. The letter really only spoke to lift maintenance. In my world thats not taking 100% ownership and responsibility for the issues at hand. I guess we just have different expectations. Just because mother nature showed to the party and dumped 6ft of snow in the month of March does not change the structural issues at hand.
P.S.
You don't ever have to worry about skiing with me as the people in my world don't threaten to punch people in the face or tell people that they never meet that they need drugs. Maybe the people that get so angry over posting on this forum might take a look in the mirror. Just a thought..................

Sorry I missed this initially.

Maybe you hadn't noticed but there is a trail pod called castlerock where there is no snowmaking. So when there is no natural snow, said lift and trails are closed. Those skiers who would be skiing castlerock are forced onto the other lifts. Furthermore, when there is no natural snow, the woods are closed and all those skiers are forced to take 2 minute groomer runs as opposed to 10 minute or longer runs through the woods. Hence when there is no natural snow there is a vast increase in skiers using the lifts that are operating. That is why there were unusually long lift lines in January even when all open lifts were operating. It wasn't that there were vastly more skiers than in the past as some had speculated was the result of the quad packs. The reason was that all natural snow trails and woods were closed. In fact, as soon as castlerock and the woods opened up, there were no issues with lift lines, when all the lifts were operating. So win, was correct to point that out in his letter.
Therefore, there really isn't a need to increase uphill capacity except for maybe peak periods (and as a backup for when a lift goes down either mechanically or wind hold) and that is what they are doing by replacing the vh double with a quad. Other than that, they just have to get the existing lifts to operate reliably.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I believe that the majority of sb skiers are content that there is no snowmaking on castlerock. So if your point is that win should put snowmaking on castlerock, then you are in the minority. Possibly a minority of 1.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Snowmaking would kill Castlerock. With snowmaking comes trail widening and grooming. Hydro logging will eliminate that windy narrow old school feel and then those trails would have to be groomed every night because they will get skied off. Nobody who really skis Casterock and knows the mountain wants this.

[shadyjay]

Oh god.... I could only imagine making snow on a trail like Middle Earth or Lift Line. Only thing I could see is a line going down to the lift from Downspout, then down the runout. Hit that last corner before the lift and the runout and you buy yourself some more time on either side of the snowy period (early/mid Dec, April).

It sure would make things a little easier for us. Stretching a gun 6 hose lengths from the top of the connection at Downspout down towards the lift can be "fun".

[MntMan4Bush]

Sorry I missed this initially.

It wasn't that there were vastly more skiers than in the past as some had speculated was the result of the quad packs.

Speculation your honor. I move to strike. (bumpcrasher did I do that right? Would you have used more southern accent and tried to look more like Colonel Sanders?)The details surrounding Win's statement of skier visits did not specify Saturdays which most likely would feel the impact of quad packs the most.

However the rest of your post is a solid point that I have agreed with. Less lifts open will make the crowds feel larger as we will all be congregating at the same choke point. However I personally feel that it was a combination of increased Saturday visits in combination of your above points that made it feel worse. I don't think anyone, to include Angler, is recommending snow making on CR. I have seen it suggested he is saying this before but I doubt it. If he is then he is likely a minority of one.

Regardless I don't think just one lift (CR) down to it having no snow making makes that much of an impact. However if snow making for HG, SB, NL, GH, etc fed trails are not all blasting then that too will create larger crowds because less trails/lifts will be open. I think every lift apart from CR and Summit have snow making capabilities on at least one trail. I could be wrong and if I am my apologies. SB with one lift down is manageable. With more than one it is not.

This has all been said about the snow making though. I agree to not rally more about it now. I don't know who is in the majority, your mindset or mine, and there's really no way to know so we will each have our own opinions. It's late in the season and obviously no more snow will/should be made. I'll save all my future comments for next season. Be sure not to read my thread next year as I don't want to put you off. If however the mountain steps up and blasts away next year with the good stuff and plenty of it. Well I will also post and give credit where it is due. I'll leave this subject with I would love to see what Win's plan for all of this. I'm talking long term. If he says in 5 years they build a new pond, 6 years install new pipes, 7 years buy X more guns and Y more the year following it may be far down the road, but at least I know it is recognized and on the radar. Believe it or not I am patient so long as I know the issue is recognized.

The posting every time a lift goes down is a bit petty. However to each their own. Some people blow off steam that way. No one should get to riled up about an internet post unless it has to do with the authenticity of Justin Bieber's singing credentials. No one wins and internet fight. No one.

[HowieT2]

Speculation your honor. I move to strike. (bumpcrasher did I do that right? Would you have used more southern accent and tried to look more like Colonel Sanders?)The details surrounding Win's statement of skier visits did not specify Saturdays which most likely would feel the impact of quad packs the most.

However the rest of your post is a solid point that I have agreed with. Less lifts open will make the crowds feel larger as we will all be congregating at the same choke point. However I personally feel that it was a combination of increased Saturday visits in combination of your above points that made it feel worse. I don't think anyone, to include Angler, is recommending snow making on CR. I have seen it suggested he is saying this before but I doubt it. If he is then he is likely a minority of one.

Regardless I don't think just one lift (CR) down to it having no snow making makes that much of an impact. However if snow making for HG, SB, NL, GH, etc fed trails are not all blasting then that too will create larger crowds because less trails/lifts will be open. I think every lift apart from CR and Summit have snow making capabilities on at least one trail. I could be wrong and if I am my apologies. SB with one lift down is manageable. With more than one it is not.

This has all been said about the snow making though. I agree to not rally more about it now. I don't know who is in the majority, your mindset or mine, and there's really no way to know so we will each have our own opinions. It's late in the season and obviously no more snow will/should be made. I'll save all my future comments for next season. Be sure not to read my thread next year as I don't want to put you off. If however the mountain steps up and blasts away next year with the good stuff and plenty of it. Well I will also post and give credit where it is due. I'll leave this subject with I would love to see what Win's plan for all of this. I'm talking long term. If he says in 5 years they build a new pond, 6 years install new pipes, 7 years buy X more guns and Y more the year following it may be far down the road, but at least I know it is recognized and on the radar. Believe it or not I am patient so long as I know the issue is recognized.

The posting every time a lift goes down is a bit petty. However to each their own. Some people blow off steam that way. No one should get to riled up about an internet post unless it has to do with the authenticity of Justin Bieber's singing credentials. No one wins and internet fight. No one.

Speculation- the only evidence I have seen is that win said in an interview that skier visits were down 9% as of January and then he explained here, 5% as of mid February or so. Plus my personal observations of the parking lots which appeared to be no more more crowded than my recollection of last season.
Furthermore, my experience and that of the majority of skiers I know reveals how being limited to groomers vastly increases the use of the lifts even when the number of skiers remain constant. When there is natural snow, we will typically take the bravo up in the morning (before any crowds) and ski in the woods or on castlerock. Each run, whether in the woods or on cr takes much longer than when skiing groomers. When there is natural snow, we may get 3-5 laps in a morning. But on groomers, it's boom and your down. Maybe a minute or 2 down and back on the lift. Same skiers, but using the lifts much more as when there is natural snow.

It may be that Saturday/holidays there were more skiers, but I haven't seen any evidence to that effect. some May question whether overall skier visits were actually down, but that is mere speculation. Even assuming they weren't, i doubt they were in reality, up significantly (why would win say they were down if they were up?). Bottom line is, if they were up that is a good thing (not for me personally, or selfishly but for the mtn and the valley community), and the reasonable response In terms of capital investment is to replace the vh double with a quad. Now, I guess, one could argue they need to replace the heavens gate lift with a new quad, but as the triple isn't that old and a quad wouldn't add that much capacity, overhauling the existing lift so it operates reliably, seems to me to be a reasonable allocation of resources.
As far as snowmaking, my feeling is they got the trails open reasonably promptly this season. Certainly no worse than a few years ago. It used to be that the whole north lynx pod wasn't ready until mlk weekend. This season it was open around New Years or before. So I didn't have an issue with the quantity of snow they made. I understand, there have been complaints about the quality of the snow being made, but I don't feel qualified to comment about that, nor do I understand why that would be or what could done to address that. I think that they have spent money on snowmaking every year but that much of that is unseen.
Fwiw-there is snowmaking off the summit. It's only castlerock that doesn't have snowmaking, and that is by choice (it's not like they're just being cheap).
I do think after rice brook was delayed a couple of years, they became less open with communication about their future plans. Probably a natural consequence of being unable to execute as soon as they expected. I wish that were otherwise, and think it's a mistake. It baffles me why they aren't talking about the vh double replacement. People would be psyched and even understanding if it doesn't happen as quickly as we hope.

I have no problem with you posting anything. Your posts are constructive even if I may disagree on some issues. They r not monotonously negative as r anglers.

[angler]

Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

I already understand that people who feel insecure like to put others down so they feel better about themselves. So you can stop illustrating that point.

[angler]

Sorry I missed this initially.

Maybe you hadn't noticed but there is a trail pod called castlerock where there is no snowmaking. So when there is no natural snow, said lift and trails are closed. Those skiers who would be skiing castlerock are forced onto the other lifts. Furthermore, when there is no natural snow, the woods are closed and all those skiers are forced to take 2 minute groomer runs as opposed to 10 minute or longer runs through the woods. Hence when there is no natural snow there is a vast increase in skiers using the lifts that are operating. That is why there were unusually long lift lines in January even when all open lifts were operating. It wasn't that there were vastly more skiers than in the past as some had speculated was the result of the quad packs. The reason was that all natural snow trails and woods were closed. In fact, as soon as castlerock and the woods opened up, there were no issues with lift lines, when all the lifts were operating. So win, was correct to point that out in his letter.
Therefore, there really isn't a need to increase uphill capacity except for maybe peak periods (and as a backup for when a lift goes down either mechanically or wind hold) and that is what they are doing by replacing the vh double with a quad. Other than that, they just have to get the existing lifts to operate reliably.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I believe that the majority of sb skiers are content that there is no snowmaking on castlerock. So if your point is that win should put snowmaking on castlerock, then you are in the minority. Possibly a minority of 1.

When did I ever suggest that snow making should happen on CR? All along my point has been when you can't open the top of the mountain, the lifts, and the snow making can't handle the skier traffic. Can we agree on that? If we can then the logical step would be to fix the issue at hand or this will be an ongoing problem. The mountain needs new lifts not just one and it needs extensive improvements when it comes to snowmaking. Why should anyone be ok with long lines just because its Jan? Its also disingenuous to say that once the snow fell, top was open, and woods were safe to party in that the lift lines where fine. Every Sat the lines were stupid. It's my belief that the quad packs added to this. As you point out SB is supposed to get a new VD lift. The question is when? What is the 5 year plan? Not once has ownership answered this question. So with the lack of response to these questions one is left wondering when, and are these that changes really coming?

Im sure you will find a way to attack this as well, but here goes. If your curious, check out this link and video http://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/conditions/offseason-snowmaking-investments/ Let me preempt by saying I know SB does not have the same $$ to spend but this is how you make a mountain better. As MtnMan4Bush said, what is on the radar and what is the time frame?

[MntMan4Bush]

Howie - I'm not suggesting Win is lying about numbers. No reason for him to and I give him the benefit of the doubt on honesty. His statement could still be 100% true and mine as well. We could be down 5% as of Feb because the conditions, and I'm talking mother nature here not anything SB related, were so horrible that maybe less people came up on weekdays, stayed for 3 day weekends or even skied Sundays. Sundays has been especially vacant, but then again it usually is.

I mean if I bought a quad pack (I didn't) and had plans to come up for a weekend I'd ski Saturday for sure. That's the full day ski, get hammered at the bar, pass out on the worn leather ski couch type of day. You can't pull that crap on a Sunday with work on Monday. So now I've burned a ticket on a pretty poor day, but hey I had some fun. Sunday is the same conditions so I say forget it. Averages are averages for a reason. Highs and lows. The odds are the end of the season will HAVE to get better. It has to mathematically unless we had the type of crummy ski winter Nostradamus predicted back when he was just a lower case "n". So I sit on my remaining 3 tickets and don't ski Sunday but maybe have brunch at the Hostel. Now the good snow is here and I have 3 tickets to use. It used to be after Feb vacation this place was a ghost town. It feels like more people for sure, but again it's still the later part of the season so not as many as earlier, but certainly more than years past.

By my example above, which is all speculation as well, the numbers for the year to date in Feb could be down, but Saturday visits could have been up. Add in all that you say about lifts not running and which lifts as well as the trees not being open forcing people to groomers (all of which I 100% agree with) and the combination of the two make a nightmare scenario. My observations of the parking lot differ from yours I guess. For the first time ever I had to park in the last row of the employee lot. I mean I was so far away they were speaking French Canadian and drinking Labatts Bleu (not Blue) in the car next to me. I needed my passport to even make it to the access road. I was far. Not once have I ever been that far away. Not even close. So my observations, and the people I ski with, differ from yours and your group. I guess in any speculative situation like that this will happen. I will however accept that I could be wrong and somehow it feels more crowded without it being so. But you have to allow that my scenario could also be true. It is certainly plausible.

Not that Win owes us anything, but I woudl love to know:

- % +/- skier visits as of today
- % skier visits +/- for Saturdays only
- Number of season passes, day tickets and quad packs bought last year versus numbers this year.
- Number of unused quad pack tickets

That would paint a pretty good picture of volumes as well as the revenues. I mean assuming day tickets and season passes evened out if there were 20k quad packs sold last year and only 15k executed and 40k this year and only 20k executed we'd see that there were 20k more visits (5k packs X4) from them as well as the additional realized revenue that did not get used against expenses. Though I agree it is an insurance policy by the mountain, but sometimes I hear those insurance companies do well financially.

Just something I'd like to see as I'm curious. I'm the guy that enjoys doing his taxes. So I'm that guy. Sorry. I remember a time when I was skiing years back and we were all saying we'd like to see the mountain have more skiers so they would do better financially and improve where needed and get some profits for the improvements they had made to date. I still want the mountain to do well, but I'm like a remora attached to the shark. Take me along for the ride.

[Fourwide]

MM4B wrote: "Speculation your honor. I move to strike. (bumpcrasher did I do that right? Would you have used more southern accent and tried to look more like Colonel Sanders?)The details surrounding Win's statement of skier visits did not specify Saturdays which most likely would feel the impact of quad packs the most."

I can't imagine why Win would disclose operating results that didn't include Saturdays.

Anyway, has anyone demo'd the new Taylormade SLDR driver?

[Hawk]

I stand by my original statement. There is still a month of skiing left for all those people to cash in the quad packs. April is usually a month that we all get the mountain to ourselves. No one is up here. If it is packed then that might indicate that the visits were delayed because of the bad conditions we encountered in January and early February. The final numbers are not in and Win was speaking about the season as a whole up to that point. One thing that no one has asked is How many weekends did we have that the individual numbers were up. Either way I stand by my claim that quad packs have boosted the crowds and diminished the SB skier experience. Again my take.

[gostan]

Angler & Howie

You two need to PM each other and make some plans to ski together before the end of this season.

Although I am more in the "Howie" camp, maybe then the incessant and repetitive "tit for tat" responses that have caused many of us to flee this forum, can come to a halt. Every response does not warrant a counter response, or to put it another way, every "punch" does not warrant a "counter punch". Sorry, I could not resist.

Enjoy the last month of the season, whether you were satisfied or dissatisfied..

[Hawk]

Stan, you are always so pleasant. I envision your life as a fun place. Keep the positive vibe going. Maybe you will convert me yet. ;-)

[ahm]

Thanks so much guys!

Howie, Hawk, Angler, MMFB, and all the others that have posted on this thread, your posts have made for fantastic reading and laughing since the time this first appeared. Keep it up and remember.......................lifts are not necessary for skiing. Sometimes leaving the mechanized world of skiing, especially on weekends, can give you a new POV......................lifts are great................as long as they work when you are using them. Enjoy the spring.........and the turns both on and far away from the lifts.........a shot from Janet's cabin between Cooper and Vail..........no lifts were on wind hold or used for this picture

[MntMan4Bush]

I can't imagine why Win would disclose operating results that didn't include Saturdays.

Anyway, has anyone demo'd the new Taylormade SLDR driver?

I'm not sure how else I can explain to you what I mean, but one short go of it.

His numbers did include Saturdays as well as all other days. If total days to date was down 5% it could be because fewer people were skiing on Sundays and Weekdays then years prior even while skier visits on Saturdays could be up hence why many of us felt crowded on Saturdays.

Oh well.

As for the new Taylor Made Driver it slices horribly to the right. Though that could just be me. :)

[Dblshot]

So replace the lifts because they are crowded in the base area when the trails are 80% open and no off piste? Replace 2 high speed quads with, two high speed quads? Or two high speed 6-packs and cut a new lift line to where? Then the complaining would be too many people on the trails... Just maintain the lifts with experienced people and they will be fine. Sure would be nice if gondola cars could go on Slide Brook when I want to ride it, but I like North being quiet....

[Fourwide]

MM4B wrote: "I'm not sure how else I can explain to you what I mean, but one short go of it.
His numbers did include Saturdays as well as all other days. If total days to date was down 5% it could be because fewer people were skiing on Sundays and Weekdays then years prior even while skier visits on Saturdays could be up hence why many of us felt crowded on Saturdays.

Oh well."

OK, that's possible. We'd obviously need the Saturday skier breakout and the quadpack use breakout. Unfortunately, I'm too exhausted of this convo to wait for that! I'll instead take the easy way out and blame George W. Bush.


"As for the new Taylor Made Driver it slices horribly to the right. Though that could just be me." Strengthen your grip, close your stance and finish your swing!

[Chewbarka]

It's not about the lifts. It's about the Quad packs. Stop selling them or increase the price point so that they don't cripple the mtn and the problem is solved. It's that easy and was the original point of this post!
So replace the lifts because they are crowded in the base area when the trails are 80% open and no off piste? Replace 2 high speed quads with, two high speed quads? Or two high speed 6-packs and cut a new lift line to where? Then the complaining would be too many people on the trails... Just maintain the lifts with experienced people and they will be fine. Sure would be nice if gondola cars could go on Slide Brook when I want to ride it, but I like North being quiet....

[gostan]

It's not about the lifts. It's about the Quad packs. Stop selling them or increase the price point so that they don't cripple the mtn and the problem is solved. It's that easy and was the original point of this post!Win and his partners are running a private business and are entitled to sell whatever ticket packages at whatever price they so determine. If they ever go public, I guess we can all then have some kind of minority voice at the annual shareholder meeting.

I really doubt that they would ever stop selling Quad Packs because they of obviously make money on them, especially on the unused QP tickets and they also bring in a bunch of cash early in the season, when they need the $$.

As many have said, Saturdays are a good day to ski Slidebrook. And, I think that Saturdays are crazy busy at most ski areas.

[Go Figure]

Being around all of the time it is easy for me to judge how busy it is. I think there are some folks too busy stuffing a breakfast sammie down on the drive to the hill to notice how busy it is on Saturday compared to years past, maybe not. They have filled the lots to Miguel's on many Saturdays. When you see the red flag it means most emplotees park at the Inn. Several records were broken this year according to reports I recieved. The mountain Monday through Thursday has been more empty the past 5 or 6 years in any time in the past 30, possibly due to a combo of poor midweek packages, a weak chamber of commerce, changing demographics or all of the above.
The biggest problem with the quad pack is its 7 day unrestricted useability. This gives away your premire dates [Saturday and holiday weekends] at a fire sale price. If the stats of the average skier skiing 5 days a year holds true, it would make sense a large majority of these skiers would ski Saturday or a holiday weekend. When you can put together a prime time ski day for family and or friends at $39 off the rack rate what do you think happens? There is no other option for such cheap skiing at any major resort in the area. It does bring in a lot of in state day skiers that may or may not buy some gas or an energy bar along the way.
The other side effect of this Saturday Shitshow is money left on the table. What money you ask? The money folks would spend if they could get a seat in the lodge or service in the dismally cramped basement that is the Caslerock pub. Overfilling the resort on Saturdays is not the best way to gleen the walllets of the visitors. North may be an option for some but it is so run down over there that in this day and age who really wants to go there. It's like that restaurant that was "the place" when you were in college that hasn't changed since and your teenage kids cringe when you mention it. People expect more these days when a tray of food is in their hands.
It would also help to move at least half of the blazer programs to north to cut down on traffic at south, if it's so empty over there and most skiers don't want to go, move the ones that have no choice.

Approx 65,000 vert the last 2 days on FLAT corn slopes, ski on all day long= midweek bliss.

Gonna rain this weekend, have fun.

[angler]

Win and his partners are running a private business and are entitled to sell whatever ticket packages at whatever price they so determine. If they ever go public, I guess we can all then have some kind of minority voice at the annual shareholder meeting.

I really doubt that they would ever stop selling Quad Packs because they of obviously make money on them, especially on the unused QP tickets and they also bring in a bunch of cash early in the season, when they need the $$.

As many have said, Saturdays are a good day to ski Slidebrook. And, I think that Saturdays are crazy busy at most ski areas.

I agree with you. With that being said I believe in Chewbarka's case (and others as well) the issue is having all those people coming to the mountain on a Saturday creating a shit show. If you are a weekend warrior you drive 2 to 4 hours to get to the resort Friday night then Saturday is a shit show which only leaves Sunday. Most people don't stay the whole day as they have a long ride home before getting ready for work Monday morning. So the weekend is cut short from a skiing experience and is not as fun as it use to be. So these people feel ripped off especially if you are a loyal season pass holder. Its hard to believe the quad packs have not increased the weekend use as these problems did not exist before the quad pack. If anyone skied the mountain before and after the inception of this program they would have to see the difference unless they are in denial. So if your going to keep the program (and I understand why they would!) you need to figure out how to handle the crowds. That is where the rubber meets the road.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I have personally only been riding at Sugarbush for one season, and my take on this is that Lincoln Peak on weekends used to mirror what Mt. Ellen looks like now. I stick to ME on most weekends for that reason. There's hardly a lift line, they have solid terrain, and most of it is serviced by high speed lifts. The lodge there definitely gets crowded, but since I hardly use it, it isn't a problem. Whenever I have visitors, I point them there on Saturday and LP on Sunday. Seems to work for them.

The reality of the situation, is that if crowds were THAT light at LP in years past, you were spoiled. Every resort I have ridden at from PA to NY to VT to NH to ME, has been a zoo on weekends. It's the status quot. Lift lines often average 15 minutes on weekends. It's just the reality of the ski business 95% of places. I understand you were spoiled and that you want the skier visits of old with the infrastructure of new, but that isn't a winning recipe. I like to look on the bright side of things, and when it comes to crowds, ME seems to be the weekend substitute.

I know the lifts have been difficult everywhere, and that's a large portion of the problem, especially since it seems many of them have been down on weekends. We can only trust Win at his word and hope it gets better.

Finally, enjoy spring. The season will come to a close far too soon.

[HowieT2]

Wow! Quite the discussion. I was stuck working all day.

It would be nice if someone with the facts could chime in about the quad pack issue.

As for lp being as quiet as mt Ellen before the quad packs, I don't think that was the case. It wasn't that quiet. But again my recollection is that the first year of the quad packs wasn't like this season. And IMHO, the issue this season wasn't the quad packs. They are a red herring. But it is certainly possible that overall skier visits were down, while Saturdays were up. I just don't see the reason why that would be.

As far as the parking on Saturday, I get there before 8:30 at the latest so maybe I just don't see the bigger crowds. But with regard to that situation, I can't understand why they don't connect the warren house to the 22 acre lot, and open the d lot to enter from the access road so as to relieve the traffic on the access road

As for mt Ellen, the facilities over there desperately need some love. I heard that there is a sewer capacity issue and any building or renovation would necessitate a large and expensive upgrade to bring the facilities up to code.
As for lp, they need more facilities, specifically bar and cafeteria space. I assume they plan on getting that from the valley house. I'm no architect, but it looks like it wouldn't be that involved to expand the existing structure. And if done right (preferably with a real fireplace) could be a nice place to eat or drink with a view of the slopes which the gatehouse doesn't have. Of course, we can't expect all these things at once although it would be nice to hear what the plans are moving forward.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Wasn't the Gate House originally supposed to have an extra floor? Could they add that on?

Secondly, I believe ME still operates on a septic and pump system, not sewer and water. Therefore, if the facilities increased, those would have to as well. Win stated before that there is significant potential for development there, but only after Rice Brook is completed. With 4 more phases and x amount of units to go, that won't be any time soon. I have to assume that ME won't get those base upgrades until a master plan is complete, Rice Brook is complete, and a central sewer and water system is built to maximize ME development.

[Hawk]

This piece from Go Figure is exactly my perception of how it has become. I am a weekend person for the most part. Every weekend from opening to closing, 5 or 6 Friday ski clubs, Christmas & New years Week and every powder day and sick day my work can stomach. The lines over the last 10 years have gone from basically non existent(OK maybe a 5 or 10 minute wait at Peak) to what we have now(Sometimes 20 to 30 minutes but 15 is common on Saturday). There may have been a hand full of weekends like Presidents and Martin Luther that the cars went down the road. This year this happened every weekend for a good stretch. That is Fact not Fiction. My condo looks out at the hill and I can clearly see the lots and the base so I not speculating. Seeing the lots fill is a great motivator to get the hell out early. We call it "FOC" (Fear of Crowds) We kid each other as we drink coffee each morning saying - We need to get the FOC out there. 8-(
QUOTE=Go Figure;223363]Being around all of the time it is easy for me to judge how busy it is. I think there are some folks too busy stuffing a breakfast sammie down on the drive to the hill to notice how busy it is on Saturday compared to years past, maybe not. They have filled the lots to Miguel's on many Saturdays. When you see the red flag it means most emplotees park at the Inn. Several records were broken this year according to reports I recieved. The mountain Monday through Thursday has been more empty the past 5 or 6 years in any time in the past 30, possibly due to a combo of poor midweek packages, a weak chamber of commerce, changing demographics or all of the above.
The biggest problem with the quad pack is its 7 day unrestricted useability. This gives away your premire dates [Saturday and holiday weekends] at a fire sale price. If the stats of the average skier skiing 5 days a year holds true, it would make sense a large majority of these skiers would ski Saturday or a holiday weekend. When you can put together a prime time ski day for family and or friends at $39 off the rack rate what do you think happens? There is no other option for such cheap skiing at any major resort in the area. It does bring in a lot of in state day skiers that may or may not buy some gas or an energy bar along the way.
The other side effect of this Saturday Shitshow is money left on the table. What money you ask? The money folks would spend if they could get a seat in the lodge or service in the dismally cramped basement that is the Caslerock pub. Overfilling the resort on Saturdays is not the best way to gleen the walllets of the visitors. North may be an option for some but it is so run down over there that in this day and age who really wants to go there. It's like that restaurant that was "the place" when you were in college that hasn't changed since and your teenage kids cringe when you mention it. People expect more these days when a tray of food is in their hands.
It would also help to move at least half of the blazer programs to north to cut down on traffic at south, if it's so empty over there and most skiers don't want to go, move the ones that have no choice.

Approx 65,000 vert the last 2 days on FLAT corn slopes, ski on all day long= midweek bliss.

Gonna rain this weekend, have fun.[/QUOTE]

[chrisinvermont]

Here are my thoughts, for what it's worth.

I've lost most of the respect that I had for Win based upon his comment to Angler on this board. I get that angler pisses people off but I also get his level of frustration. For Win to act like a petulant little child with his comments on a public forum say alot about where his head is at and probably explain the current state of affairs on moutain.

To those that think all is well, so be it. From what I know, I don't have the same positive outlook but I'm still buying a pass for next year. The reality is that lift operations are in shambles. North and South function as almost independent operations and rookie mistakes keep getting made. My guess is these mistakes are contributing factors in bringing down the lifts. Replacing lifts won't solve the issues. I don't know how SB got to this point, I have heard rumors but no facts as to what happened to the department.

As for my take on the Quad Packs and other specials, I have to wonder is these specials are a way to get a quick cash infusion to meet debt load. Win mentioned the $50mil that was invested and a good portion of that is going to be debt. One doesn't have to go far back in time or even leave the state to know the familiar pattern of ski areas that try and develop and can't service their debt, heck that's how the current owners got SB. Hope I'm wrong but this wouldn't be the first time where owners over extend and skimp on mountain operations beginning the downward spiral.

Like I mentioned previously, I am getting a pass by the May deadline for next year. I want the mountain to suceed, when it's running smoothly it's a great mountain. If you think the lift issues this year aren't going to impact the mountain next year, I think you are sadly mistaken. There is an impact locally and on tourists. A friend get's a pass through the shop he works at. This is the first year and last year at SB as they are returning to Stowe next year. I know we can look at statistics that show lifts are running most of the time but the reality is lifts going down has become the running joke among locals and industry personnel. This has an impact when an industry employee is asked for a recommendation on where to ski. As for tourists, a person that I know thorugh work came up with friends for a long weekend when south was having issues with bravo and HG. They had an ok weekend but this was the first time in years the group had been to sugarbush and they won't be returning anytime soon due to the lifts. When you're traveling, why go to SB and hope the lifts are running when you can go to Stowe or Killington? This is a sentiment that I have heard more than once sharing a chair with people having their trip impacted by lifts being down for maintenance.

I really hope SB can recover from the lift issues this season. The late winter snow certainly helped improve skier moral. I can only imagine the comments that Win is getting from those that have invested hundred's of thousands in slopeside real estate. Us dirtbag locals just post on message boards with a limited audience. My experience is those that invest that heavily into a vacation unit have a certain level of expectations and usually aren't shy about complaining directly to ownership.

Sorry about the long rant. Hope Win lets my pass purchase go through for next year :smile:

[HowieT2]

Here are my thoughts, for what it's worth.

I've lost most of the respect that I had for Win based upon his comment to Angler on this board. I get that angler pisses people off but I also get his level of frustration. For Win to act like a petulant little child with his comments on a public forum say alot about where his head is at and probably explain the current state of affairs on moutain.

To those that think all is well, so be it. From what I know, I don't have the same positive outlook but I'm still buying a pass for next year. The reality is that lift operations are in shambles. North and South function as almost independent operations and rookie mistakes keep getting made. My guess is these mistakes are contributing factors in bringing down the lifts. Replacing lifts won't solve the issues. I don't know how SB got to this point, I have heard rumors but no facts as to what happened to the department.

As for my take on the Quad Packs and other specials, I have to wonder is these specials are a way to get a quick cash infusion to meet debt load. Win mentioned the $50mil that was invested and a good portion of that is going to be debt. One doesn't have to go far back in time or even leave the state to know the familiar pattern of ski areas that try and develop and can't service their debt, heck that's how the current owners got SB. Hope I'm wrong but this wouldn't be the first time where owners over extend and skimp on mountain operations beginning the downward spiral.

Like I mentioned previously, I am getting a pass by the May deadline for next year. I want the mountain to suceed, when it's running smoothly it's a great mountain. If you think the lift issues this year aren't going to impact the mountain next year, I think you are sadly mistaken. There is an impact locally and on tourists. A friend get's a pass through the shop he works at. This is the first year and last year at SB as they are returning to Stowe next year. I know we can look at statistics that show lifts are running most of the time but the reality is lifts going down has become the running joke among locals and industry personnel. This has an impact when an industry employee is asked for a recommendation on where to ski. As for tourists, a person that I know thorugh work came up with friends for a long weekend when south was having issues with bravo and HG. They had an ok weekend but this was the first time in years the group had been to sugarbush and they won't be returning anytime soon due to the lifts. When you're traveling, why go to SB and hope the lifts are running when you can go to Stowe or Killington? This is a sentiment that I have heard more than once sharing a chair with people having their trip impacted by lifts being down for maintenance.

I really hope SB can recover from the lift issues this season. The late winter snow certainly helped improve skier moral. I can only imagine the comments that Win is getting from those that have invested hundred's of thousands in slopeside real estate. Us dirtbag locals just post on message boards with a limited audience. My experience is those that invest that heavily into a vacation unit have a certain level of expectations and usually aren't shy about complaining directly to ownership.

Sorry about the long rant. Hope Win lets my pass purchase go through for next year :smile:

I gotta say, I have been disappointed with the communication from the the Mtn the last few years. But if I was win, I wouldn't have responded to the kind of rants and complaints that have proliferated here on this board. They were insulting and frankly, disrespectful.

[Go Figure]

I gotta say, I have been disappointed with the communication from the the Mtn the last few years. But if I was win, I wouldn't have responded to the kind of rants and complaints that have proliferated here on this board. They were insulting and frankly, disrespectful.

Win certainly had no problems being insulting and disrespectful in his book, read it.

[s_angel0]

Full disclosure.....we are loyal quad-packers (except for season pass for our 8 yr old) and are happy to have them offered.....but I asked before and I will again...why no dissing of the 4-20s passes....nothing....nada.....sat crowds seem to correlate quite nicely with when these first started being sold as well.

[angler]

Full disclosure.....we are loyal quad-packers (except for season pass for our 8 yr old) and are happy to have them offered.....but I asked before and I will again...why no dissing of the 4-20s passes....nothing....nada.....sat crowds seem to correlate quite nicely with when these first started being sold as well.

I think they do add to the crowd just not to the same extent imo.

[angler]

I gotta say, I have been disappointed with the communication from the the Mtn the last few years. But if I was win, I wouldn't have responded to the kind of rants and complaints that have proliferated here on this board. They were insulting and frankly, disrespectful.



There were plenty of posts that were respectful. He just hasn't answered the question," what is the plan for the future"? Not hard to do unless there is no plan. When you speak of being disrespectful and insulting Win hasn't been a Saint in that department. Some would argue that its disrespectful and insulting to all the loyal season pass holders to stay silent on what the future holds. We can't even get a date on when the VD will be installed. So lets be real here. The lack of communication came way before this thread started. Sorry if you feel like this is another negative post.

[shipyardcreek]

All the complaining about long lift lines is amusing. Back in the day, 1 hour lines were not uncommon on weekends. A good day was 12,000 vertical feet, skiing from 9 to 4. Even on the Saturday horror show the first of February, I got 17,000 vertical feet, and that was with quitting at 3:00 because everyone was frozen and were ready for beer and VT cheese.

The big issue I have is with the chaos at the back of the lift lines. The corrals need to be extended.

[MntMan4Bush]

Full disclosure.....we are loyal quad-packers (except for season pass for our 8 yr old) and are happy to have them offered.....but I asked before and I will again...why no dissing of the 4-20s passes....nothing....nada.....sat crowds seem to correlate quite nicely with when these first started being sold as well.

Fair question. First nothing personal against quad pack buyers. I mean how could you not buy them at that price. It's insane. Wifey is taking a break from the season pass next year and going that route.

I think the 20's pass happened at a time when we were all thinking the mountain needs more people to help it along. At least for me it did. I was excited to see new faces (I'm sick of seeing a few as it is.....) I was a bit jealous and nervous at how many it would add, but it didn't seem to change all that much. A few more people, but not a ton. Looking around the bar apres I don't see many and on the mountain with helmets its hard to tell. Though in full disclosure I'm not a great judge of age. People either look like they're 12 or 70 to me. If they don't then they must be my age I assume.

The addition of the quad packs though was an absolute fire sale. You'd be an idiot not to buy one if you were going for at least 4 days. I'm sorry but at $50 a ticket if that isn't appealing to someone and you like to spend money then by all means give me the difference for a full price ticket, I'll go buy a tack hammer and hit you in the head with it and keep the change. It would be doing us both a favor.

Maybe though it's a combination we're seeing. Maybe quad packs alone would not be so bad, but with a 20's pass, a spring pass, a free cat ride up Ellen and tire rotation with the purchase of a small coffee at Honeydew it's adding up. Though my gut says the quad pack has more of an impact by itself then any of them individually. Again to be fair this is all speculation based on zero insight, facts or actual knowledge, but that's never stopped anyone from making an argument on the internet before. I know someone who swears a bakers dozen is 14 and can prove it with interwebz.

As it relates to Win. I honestly can't blame the guy for his responses or lack of here, but I will. I mean I buy a pass. I have a vested interest in the mountain, and selfishly my experience on it. He was a big shot at Merrill or Mercer or somewhere. They're all the same (actually not any more. :) Now Bank of America and Great West.) But he should know above all else that you have to separate personal and business. No business is run 100% complaint free. You can't please everyone. When 0.5% of your client base complains you kind of listen, but you gloss over. You give it a cursory glance (or have your staff do it) because maybe something legit crops up or you get a good idea, but you don't spend a lot of time fretting over it. When that population increases, regardless of if you want to hear it or not, you listen. Then you plan, respond and you act. Working for a public company that reports to shareholders that should be ingrained. SB is not public and we are not share holders. I get it. It's also not exactly like a single purchase consumer product or commodity either though. It requires a base of regular customers that prepay (season passes) and act like micro investors to fund operations.

We were all Win fanboys back in the day. He was more than happy to log in, accept praise, post, respond, update so long as we were all laying on compliments like Nicki Manaj applies makeup. I don't know that anyone has personally attacked Win. Criticizing how someone runs a business that you are a paying customer for is not disrespectful in itself. Levying personal insults at an individual would be,but where is that happening?

So as I said I can't blame him because I can certainly understand. I mean Shady jumps on here and posts. No one is taking him to task and no one should be. The employees at the mountain do as they're directed and do a good job of it. If Shady came on and said that was it. He was done here I wouldn't have a word to say. I'd probably do the same at some point. But as the owner with the ultimate responsibility it all points to you. Win doesn't owe us any posting, data or facts. But because he set the precedent when times were good that it was his management style (for which we praised him for and he got our support) and now when times are rocky he clams up it is a bit disappointing. I feel a little let down. It would be like if you found out Pedro juiced. Thank God that head hunter was such a skinny MoFo. There's no way.

[Hawk]

Your history and Mine are completely different. I have never waited that long in a line until this year. I am not sure when you are referring to but I don't see it.


All the complaining about long lift lines is amusing. Back in the day, 1 hour lines were not uncommon on weekends. A good day was 12,000 vertical feet, skiing from 9 to 4. Even on the Saturday horror show the first of February, I got 17,000 vertical feet, and that was with quitting at 3:00 because everyone was frozen and were ready for beer and VT cheese.

The big issue I have is with the chaos at the back of the lift lines. The corrals need to be extended.

[Fourwide]

MM4B wrote:

"We were all Win fanboys back in the day. He was more than happy to log in, accept praise, post, respond, update so long as we were all laying on compliments like Nicki Manaj applies makeup. I don't know that anyone has personally attacked Win. Criticizing how someone runs a business that you are a paying customer for is not disrespectful in itself. Levying personal insults at an individual would be,but where is that happening?"

I'm happy to see that the "Comedy Hour" portion of this thread has now commenced. For how many consecutive years have the snowmaking/lift maintenance topics appeared? Five? Ten? Ownership has zero obligation to respond to chatrooms. I'm happy to receive whatever info he divulges. SB isn't a cooperative.

[southvillager]

Your history and Mine are completely different. I have never waited that long in a line until this year. I am not sure when you are referring to but I don't see it.

For sure...back in the '70s, before detachable quads, the lines were crazy long. If you got 10 lift rides in a day, you were doing great, and probably skiing mid week. On a busy Saturday, getting only 7 or 8 runs in was not unusual. Most lifts were doubles, some triples, and lots of surface lifts like Pomas (discs), t-bars, or j-bars for short ascents. As an example, North Lynx was a Poma surface lift, it was awesome. Once you got up there, you had the place to yourself, like Castlerock. Some of the bigger resorts has a gondola, like Sugarbush, Stowe, etc., but they were slow, too. The lines were long, the uphill rides were slow, and the skiing was slower.

Then in the eighties, all the resorts put up detachable quads, and built lifts that climbed 2/3 of the mountain instead of top to bottom. The difference in uphill capacity of a fixed double and a detachable quad is astounding. Double the seats, double the chairs, double the speed.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Your history and Mine are completely different. I have never waited that long in a line until this year. I am not sure when you are referring to but I don't see it.
Probably in the 80s when everyone seems to have been a skier and every mountain was busy? Before my time, but that's the way most people make it sound.

[HowieT2]

Win certainly had no problems being insulting and disrespectful in his book, read it.

what does that have to with anything?

[HowieT2]

Win certainly had no problems being insulting and disrespectful in his book, read it.

what does that have to with anything?

[chrisinvermont]

All the complaining about long lift lines is amusing. Back in the day, 1 hour lines were not uncommon on weekends.

But back in the day it was that way everywhere mainly due to the lifts. Today is different and SB is trying to compete with ski areas that don't have the lines. I skied Smuggs all through the 90's so I get the long lines. The trade off is lower ticket prices. I guess with the quad packs some are getting the lower ticket prices, just pass holders getting hosed.

[HowieT2]

There were plenty of posts that were respectful. He just hasn't answered the question," what is the plan for the future"? Not hard to do unless there is no plan. When you speak of being disrespectful and insulting Win hasn't been a Saint in that department. Some would argue that its disrespectful and insulting to all the loyal season pass holders to stay silent on what the future holds. We can't even get a date on when the VD will be installed. So lets be real here. The lack of communication came way before this thread started. Sorry if you feel like this is another negative post.

I dont have a problem with negative posts. My problem is with you making the same negative posts for 4 months running. That is why I suggested you stop beating a dead horse.

Like I said before, I too feel the communication from the mtn has been lacking the last few years. However, that doesnt make it right to go on and on endlessly in an insulting fashion.

personally, my conjecture is that they were very open about the future plans up through and including the building of the schoolhouse/farmhouse. The next big item was rice brook and they had the plans posted up on the wall at the gatehouse. Then the financial crisis hit and rice brook got delayed 3-4 years (totally reasonable). So, I think that experience, getting burned on the timing of rice brook, specifically, and the loss of confidence we all suffered from the financial crisis, caused them to clam up about future plans. so for instance, they arent talking about the valey house lift replacement until all the permits are issued, i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
I think its a mistake as I've said before, but thats my take on the situation. I think they need to show some confidence about the future to build morale on the team of pass holders and employees. Not everything is going to work out, but everyone with a stake in it, needs to have hope for the future. With hope comes happiness.

[shipyardcreek]

I was just trying to bring a little perspective to the lift line situation. I do not like long lines any more than the rest of you. This year has been the worst in quite awhile. The situation with all the breakdowns this season is deplorable, but what do you expect when all the lifts are older than 20 years except two.

I started skiing SB New Years 83-84, the last season the gondola was there. I got to ski Ripcord and Parachute the first day they were open. I found a trail map from 86-87 and all the lifts at Mt. Ellen were doubles. At SB Sugar Bravo was still a triple and Gate House was a double. I also noticed how little snow making there was at SB. Organgrinder, Jester, Sleepper, Birch Run, Sunrise, Stein's Run, what is now Domino Chute, Murphy's Glade and Birdland did not yet have snow making. However, Mt. Ellen had the same snow making then as it does now. Another interesting tidbit is that there were only 68 trails at the two mountains.

[angler]

I dont have a problem with negative posts. My problem is with you making the same negative posts for 4 months running. That is why I suggested you stop beating a dead horse.

Like I said before, I too feel the communication from the mtn has been lacking the last few years. However, that doesnt make it right to go on and on endlessly in an insulting fashion.

personally, my conjecture is that they were very open about the future plans up through and including the building of the schoolhouse/farmhouse. The next big item was rice brook and they had the plans posted up on the wall at the gatehouse. Then the financial crisis hit and rice brook got delayed 3-4 years (totally reasonable). So, I think that experience, getting burned on the timing of rice brook, specifically, and the loss of confidence we all suffered from the financial crisis, caused them to clam up about future plans. so for instance, they arent talking about the valey house lift replacement until all the permits are issued, i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
I think its a mistake as I've said before, but thats my take on the situation. I think they need to show some confidence about the future to build morale on the team of pass holders and employees. Not everything is going to work out, but everyone with a stake in it, needs to have hope for the future. With hope comes happiness.


Ok, fair enough. I would agree that there is some truth to what you are saying about my posts. In my defense I do think that I toned them down after the first couple of dozen :wink:. For the most part I have only been responding to other posts. Either way I get your point.

As far as your view on their lack of communication you might be right but it still says something about the attitude. It would be unreasonable for people to be pissed off about the rice book delay considering the financial environment. All they need to do is explain why the delay. So not to communicate about stuff doesn't make sense. I mean shit happens so tell people when you plan to do the VD lift and if things come up say it. When people on this forum say that ownership doesn't have to say anything about what is going on because its a private company is technically right but it isn't right from a human perspective. I look at season pass holders as stake holders in its own unique way. They are loyal customers that commit significant dollars, time and loyalty to the mountain and IMO they deserve better then what is happening at the mountain on many different levels.

Let me share an example of the attitude that I am speaking about. I have a friend who has been a season pass holder and shareholder at MRG plus a season pass holder at SB for double digit years. He is 68 years old. When he turned 65 he qualified for the senior discount. He received the discount for two years then SB decided to change the age to 70 for the discount. ( I don't agree with the policy but it's not my mountain) He writes directly to ownership to ask why the change in policy and the response is well the demographics are changing, people live longer so thats why they made it 70. They wouldn't even grandfather the people who already were receiving the discount. (how many could that be?) So it just gets taken away. Really who does that from a business perspective or a human perspective. He was offended on many different levels. One could ask, why would you initiate the 20's pass for 299 but take away a pass from loyal pass hold for over 12 years or so thats still paying 700 dollars for his. Not a good way to treat loyalty. So he leaves the mountain goes to another one that still does 65 for seniors speaks badly about the mountain, and would never go back. (I have no dog in this fight as I am not close to being 65 ) The relationship between a season pass holder and the mountain is way more intimate then a typical relationship between a business and a customer. Season pass holders bring their family, friends, call it their mountain, spend lots of time and money above the cost of a pass, are proud of it ect, ect, you get the point. It tends to be a personal relationship and I think the ownership doesn't get that. IMO this attitude is prevalent through out the mountain and bleeds through to the decisions they make concerning the operations of the mountain. This started long before this year IMO. I hope you take this for what it is, observations, not just a negative rant.
P.S.
I find this type of attitude insulting.

[HowieT2]

Ok, fair enough. I would agree that there is some truth to what you are saying about my posts. In my defense I do think that I toned them down after the first couple of dozen :wink:. For the most part I have only been responding to other posts. Either way I get your point.

As far as your view on their lack of communication you might be right but it still says something about the attitude. It would be unreasonable for people to be pissed off about the rice book delay considering the financial environment. All they need to do is explain why the delay. So not to communicate about stuff doesn't make sense. I mean shit happens so tell people when you plan to do the VD lift and if things come up say it. When people on this forum say that ownership doesn't have to say anything about what is going on because its a private company is technically right but it isn't right from a human perspective. I look at season pass holders as stake holders in its own unique way. They are loyal customers that commit significant dollars, time and loyalty to the mountain and IMO they deserve better then what is happening at the mountain on many different levels.

Let me share an example of the attitude that I am speaking about. I have a friend who has been a season pass holder and shareholder at MRG plus a season pass holder at SB for double digit years. He is 68 years old. When he turned 65 he qualified for the senior discount. He received the discount for two years then SB decided to change the age to 70 for the discount. ( I don't agree with the policy but it's not my mountain) He writes directly to ownership to ask why the change in policy and the response is well the demographics are changing, people live longer so thats why they made it 70. They wouldn't even grandfather the people who already were receiving the discount. (how many could that be?) So it just gets taken away. Really who does that from a business perspective or a human perspective. He was offended on many different levels. One could ask, why would you initiate the 20's pass for 299 but take away a pass from loyal pass hold for over 12 years or so thats still paying 700 dollars for his. Not a good way to treat loyalty. So he leaves the mountain goes to another one that still does 65 for seniors speaks badly about the mountain, and would never go back. (I have no dog in this fight as I am not close to being 65 ) The relationship between a season pass holder and the mountain is way more intimate then a typical relationship between a business and a customer. Season pass holders bring their family, friends, call it their mountain, spend lots of time and money above the cost of a pass, are proud of it ect, ect, you get the point. It tends to be a personal relationship and I think the ownership doesn't get that. IMO this attitude is prevalent through out the mountain and bleeds through to the decisions they make concerning the operations of the mountain. This started long before this year IMO. I hope you take this for what it is, observations, not just a negative rant.
P.S.
I find this type of attitude insulting.

I totally agree. Not right.

I've been a pass holder for 8 seasons with my family. My son also did blazers which I gladly paid for all those years. But he was done with that and after some prodding, ski patrol agreed to start up a young adult patroller program. Friend of my son did it at another mtn. Basically, they are trainees. They help out on the mtn and in the clinics. He has had instruction every weekend day since December. He goes to mt Ellen and works there from about 9 to 3. The program is great and he loved it. when he turns 18 and takes the required outdoor emergency care course, he can be a full patroller. But I was shocked when I had to pay for his pass. Not that it was much money because of his age, but still. There are only 6 kids in the program and they didn't do anything for them, like jackets or anything.

[MntMan4Bush]

MM4B wrote:

I'm happy to see that the "Comedy Hour" portion of this thread has now commenced. For how many consecutive years have the snowmaking/lift maintenance topics appeared? Five? Ten? Ownership has zero obligation to respond to chatrooms. I'm happy to receive whatever info he divulges. SB isn't a cooperative.

I'm glad you're at least adding constructive criticism that is relevant to the topic and you aren't focusing your comments on the posters but the substance itself. Let the Comedy Hour continue. To answer your question though the lift maintenance topics probably started appearing about the same time NR started going down on a consistent basis. Certainly not before then. The snow making ones probably;y about the same time we got had a season where we were left with minimal trails open (Not suggesting CR) compared to local competition at the start of a year and people got to thinking why not us? Just guessing though. Where you looking for exact dates? Would that help you?

Look at a lot of the join dates of people posting. They match yours. (By the way not that that is a qualifier for having an opinion in either direction). However surely you must remember a different attitude and style of response back in those times. Do you not? Win used to jump in and post (setting precedent for that type of behavior) and we'd post about how awesome he is and how happy we were that he was the owner. Then he'd post some more. Then we'd give him more. It was all Happy Happy Joy Joy. What changed? I don't know. You tell me. Did we all become more bitter and bogged down from too much skiing? Maybe. Snow is a fickle fiend of a drug. It changes people man. One second you're flying down Liftline on a high, blower snow flying in your face. The next you're at a party talking to someone you don't even know in corner of the kitchen for 40 minutes trying to get your fix.

In any case as I said (and your tone confuses me because you essentially repeat what I say) I don't expect Win to post anything. He doesn't owe us a single thing. However he came on here before and was more than happy to respond and post when we were applauding him. I thought he had the ability to focus on the issues and not make it personal. Admittedly I expected more from him than probably many of us would do and maybe it's not fair, but I was hopeful. And I was disappointed in the response/lack of as a result.

Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend.

[angler]

I totally agree. Not right.

I've been a pass holder for 8 seasons with my family. My son also did blazers which I gladly paid for all those years. But he was done with that and after some prodding, ski patrol agreed to start up a young adult patroller program. Friend of my son did it at another mtn. Basically, they are trainees. They help out on the mtn and in the clinics. He has had instruction every weekend day since December. He goes to mt Ellen and works there from about 9 to 3. The program is great and he loved it. when he turns 18 and takes the required outdoor emergency care course, he can be a full patroller. But I was shocked when I had to pay for his pass. Not that it was much money because of his age, but still. There are only 6 kids in the program and they didn't do anything for them, like jackets or anything.

Seriously, Who does that? Oh I know SB does. (sorry I'm only on step 2 of my 12 step program) Its one thing not to have the money to do something, or have mother nature screw you, but really? They can't get out of their own way, when they do stuff like this (that they can control) it's really saying they couldn't give a S__T. Thats why Im not inclined to give them a get out of jail card for free.

[MntMan4Bush]

On a positive post good for you Howie. That's a pretty cool program your kid is in. If he's doing work for the mountain and helping out he deserves some recognition. It's what helps keep people motivated and excited to continue. Maybe since it's the first year (I'm guessing form your post) they didn't have a plan for it and hopefully they will take some feedback and get it together next year for him.

[Hawk]

SV, the 70's??? How old do you think I am? LOL My first year skiing the Bush was 83. The gondola was in it's last throws and the high speed era was starting up. I heard tha the 70's had both some huge snow years but also some awful snow years.


For sure...back in the '70s, before detachable quads, the lines were crazy long. If you got 10 lift rides in a day, you were doing great, and probably skiing mid week. On a busy Saturday, getting only 7 or 8 runs in was not unusual. Most lifts were doubles, some triples, and lots of surface lifts like Pomas (discs), t-bars, or j-bars for short ascents. As an example, North Lynx was a Poma surface lift, it was awesome. Once you got up there, you had the place to yourself, like Castlerock. Some of the bigger resorts has a gondola, like Sugarbush, Stowe, etc., but they were slow, too. The lines were long, the uphill rides were slow, and the skiing was slower.

Then in the eighties, all the resorts put up detachable quads, and built lifts that climbed 2/3 of the mountain instead of top to bottom. The difference in uphill capacity of a fixed double and a detachable quad is astounding. Double the seats, double the chairs, double the speed.

[Fourwide]

"Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend."

Will do! My point is that your premise can't be substantiated. The back and forth with Win over the years is a mix of neutral discussion, praise and criticism. Unlike you, my impression is that I've seen more discussion and criticism than praise. Regardless, Win has other owners and a board to whom he's responsible. Passholders and owners do have a right to more info., and there are different and established opportunities for that. I don't think it's fair or realistic to expect him to go point-by-point with forum dwellers. We get a good deal of info from him here, and we shouldn't be overly demanding.

I'm a Win fan, and I believe Angler and others often unnecessarily repeat their criticisms but I do believe he owes Angler an apology (perhaps better, a beer!). We need to keep things civil on this amusing board.

[HowieT2]

On a positive post good for you Howie. That's a pretty cool program your kid is in. If he's doing work for the mountain and helping out he deserves some recognition. It's what helps keep people motivated and excited to continue. Maybe since it's the first year (I'm guessing form your post) they didn't have a plan for it and hopefully they will take some feedback and get it together next year for him.

It was the first year and they were definitely playing it by ear. I'm totally cool with that. His friend who did it at hunter got a free pass from them.

[HowieT2]

"Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend."

Will do! My point is that your premise can't be substantiated. The back and forth with Win over the years is a mix of neutral discussion, praise and criticism. Unlike you, my impression is that I've seen more discussion and criticism than praise. Regardless, Win has other owners and a board to whom he's responsible. Passholders and owners do have a right to more info., and there are different and established opportunities for that. I don't think it's fair or realistic to expect him to go point-by-point with forum dwellers. We get a good deal of info from him here, and we shouldn't be overly demanding.

I'm a Win fan, and I believe Angler and others often unnecessarily repeat their criticisms but I do believe he owes Angler an apology (perhaps better, a beer!). We need to keep things civil on this amusing board.

I dont expect Win to come on here and go point for point with anyone. who has time for that anyway. what I do expect from the way things were back a few years ago, is some dissemination of information as to where they are going with things.

[Hawk]

I agree with you Fourwide. Keep things civil on the board. I also think that criticism is healthy. For the record, I was one of the biggest Win fans when I moved here from Sunday River. The atmosphere was electric with the development of the new base area. But with time I have been disappointed with many of the decision that have been made. Granted that the decision were probably made by committee, but you always think that everything goes through Win.

I know and have many friends who work for the mountain. I bet most on here do. So when I hear the tails of what these people go through, the hiring's, the firings, the struggles to get it done with limited budgets, the goals set forth, it makes me sad. I guess my expectations were way too high. And now it seems that some of these decisions are effecting my experience. That is why I feel I need to voice an opinion. Hey it's a hard business but I really think that some of the real important things have been overlooked or undervalued. It is a ski area. The most important thing is the lifts and the snow quality. That is what makes a good area great. If people are standing in line and skiing challenging conditions then that is a minus in the large scheme of things.

[HowieT2]

I agree with you Fourwide. Keep things civil on the board. I also think that criticism is healthy. For the record, I was one of the biggest Win fans when I moved here from Sunday River. The atmosphere was electric with the development of the new base area. But with time I have been disappointed with many of the decision that have been made. Granted that the decision were probably made by committee, but you always think that everything goes through Win.

I know and have many friends who work for the mountain. I bet most on here do. So when I hear the tails of what these people go through, the hiring's, the firings, the struggles to get it done with limited budgets, the goals set forth, it makes me sad. I guess my expectations were way too high. And now it seems that some of these decisions are effecting my experience. That is why I feel I need to voice an opinion. Hey it's a hard business but I really think that some of the real important things have been overlooked or undervalued. It is a ski area. The most important thing is the lifts and the snow quality. That is what makes a good area great. If people are standing in line and skiing challenging conditions then that is a minus in the large scheme of things.

I like sports analogies. Teams go through slumps. theyre not as good as they look when theyre winning, nor as bad as they look when theyre losing. I think theyre in a slump. Theyve made some mistakes and hit some bad luck, but they're a good team and theyll bounce back. I believe most importantly, that SV is trying to do the right things. They may not always, but they arent trying to suck the operation for cash or dump it in a sale.

[MntMan4Bush]

"Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend."

Will do!

I wasn't being sarcastic. This all gives me amusement at work. Perhaps my employer would see it otherwise :)

In any case I actually agree with everything you say, though I'm not sure your exact point about my premise being unsubstantiated though after typing such long posts I often forget what my premise was to begin with. In any case I don't expect Win to answer all questions here. If I was him I wouldn't.

What I'm saying is what I'd like to see. I even admit that some of it is due to my nerdish curiosity about number and data points as opposed to anything that adds value to the community. Call it a wish list. Some of it others might like to see. I don't know. I just know what I'd like to see. I don't actually require (like if I was a shareholder) or expect (like I was overly optimistic) to get all the answers, but some like he used to do would be nice.

As for the date of the VD I really could care less unless the lift goes down permanently. Then I care. It's nice to know it's on the radar. Maybe a ballpark (next 3 years) would be good to hear. Throw in some rough dates on the high level business plan and I'm a happy guy, but if it doesn't come I'll still be on the slopes. Just with less things in my head to dream about. It will just be Rumble on a powder day, movie theater size boxes of snowcaps and Megan Fox in my head along with some vague distant memories of me being married, having a kid and a job or some such thing.

[Fourwide]

I wasn't being sarcastic. This all gives me amusement at work. Perhaps my employer would see it otherwise :)

In any case I actually agree with everything you say, though I'm not sure your exact point about my premise being unsubstantiated though after typing such long posts I often forget what my premise was to begin with. In any case I don't expect Win to answer all questions here. If I was him I wouldn't.

What I'm saying is what I'd like to see. I even admit that some of it is due to my nerdish curiosity about number and data points as opposed to anything that adds value to the community. Call it a wish list. Some of it others might like to see. I don't know. I just know what I'd like to see. I don't actually require (like if I was a shareholder) or expect (like I was overly optimistic) to get all the answers, but some like he used to do would be nice.

As for the date of the VD I really could care less unless the lift goes down permanently. Then I care. It's nice to know it's on the radar. Maybe a ballpark (next 3 years) would be good to hear. Throw in some rough dates on the high level business plan and I'm a happy guy, but if it doesn't come I'll still be on the slopes. Just with less things in my head to dream about. It will just be Rumble on a powder day, movie theater size boxes of snowcaps and Megan Fox in my head along with some vague distant memories of me being married, having a kid and a job or some such thing.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were being sarcastic. I think ownership has an obligation to respond to criticism raised by any customer. This forum is a good place to gather ideas, and I'd imagine that some of the ideas discussed on this board are taken up by ownership. However, this isn't the place to expect ownership reaction. Passholders can and should communicate directly with ownership and can fairly expect detailed answers at the meetings dedicated to that purpose. Ownership has recently provided its lift maintenance plan for next season. I believe they've also promised more info on snowmaking. I'd guess that formal communication (even an email) from a passholder might be read to the board. I'm sure forum content is not.

[angler]

It would be nice to get one weekend this year where its 60 and sunny! Love spring skiing when its like that!

[Hawk]

Saturday is not going to be that bad. They say the rain will move our early. I am thinking the rain will also scare a lot of people away. I am so ready for a soft bumpy weekend with no crowds.

[Go Figure]

Down for the day

Friday, April 4th - 2:40 PM

*** Super Bravo is on maintenance delay. Valley House will be open shortly. ***

[angler]

Saturday is not going to be that bad. They say the rain will move our early. I am thinking the rain will also scare a lot of people away. I am so ready for a soft bumpy weekend with no crowds.

agreed!

[angler]

Down for the day

Friday, April 4th - 2:40 PM

*** Super Bravo is on maintenance delay. Valley House will be open shortly. ***

Go Figure

[ducky]

Down for the day

Friday, April 4th - 2:40 PM

*** Super Bravo is on maintenance delay. Valley House will be open shortly. ***

Was working fine when I got out 3-5.

[Go Figure]

I guess you weren't standing at the base when they announced VH would run till 5. I guess they got lucky and fixed it quick, this time.

[Hawk]

It went down. Chalk it up. There was a big crowd at the base of very unhappy and very vocal people at the time. You know lifts stopping and the maintenance guys saying we are not sure what the problem is we are working on it is not the norm. This happens all the time the bush. Fact not fiction. That is not normal for any ski resort. It is not fine.

[angler]

So what is the cause of the problem? Is it lack of preventive maintenance over the years? Skilled people working on the lifts. Lifts just out lived their time? Its hard to understand whats preventing them from getting a handle on this. Your right this is not normal.

[sbskier]

So what is the cause of the problem? Is it lack of preventive maintenance over the years? Skilled people working on the lifts. Lifts just out lived their time? Its hard to understand whats preventing them from getting a handle on this. Your right this is not normal.

Heard 3 lift mechanics at north gave notice wonder how many from south will leave?

[Benski]

So what is the cause of the problem? Is it lack of preventive maintenance over the years? Skilled people working on the lifts. Lifts just out lived their time? Its hard to understand whats preventing them from getting a handle on this. Your right this is not normal.

I rode it 10 minuets before it closed. The chairs were swinging. Seamed clear to me it was just a windhold.



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[angler]

I rode it 10 minuets before it closed. The chairs were swinging. Seamed clear to me it was just a windhold.



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I meant in general. It's been a long year for lift closings.

[Benski]

I meant in general. It's been a long year for lift closings.

its seems like your blaming sugarbush for a windhold.

[angler]

its seems like your blaming sugarbush for a windhold.

You must be kidding right? I asked a simple question about the issues going on for the whole season. Once again I wasn't
refering to one wind hold. Maybe you should go back and read it again. Unless you think all the lift closings this year were due to wind holds.

[Benski]

You must be kidding right? I asked a simple question about the issues going on for the whole season. Once again I wasn't
refering to one wind hold. Maybe you should go back and read it again. Unless you think all the lift closings this year were due to wind holds.
Why do you say that every time a lift was closed.


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[angler]

Why do you say that every time a lift was closed.


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Well, we know thats not an accurate statement. If it was, the server running this forum would have crashed by now. :wink:

[Hawk]

Heard 3 lift mechanics at north gave notice wonder how many from south will leave?

3 more? That's interesting. I did not hear that. That would be on top of the ones that already left after last year?

[Hawk]

I rode it 10 minuets before it closed. The chairs were swinging. Seamed clear to me it was just a windhold.



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That is certainly not what I heard from bunches of people at the Castlerock yesterday afternoon. They were there also. Ben we are all sick of the company line that we are being given. It is obviously damage control. They need to fix this. All of the questions that angler is asking are valid.

[sbskier]

At least 7 left last year and 3 at north are leaving at the end of this year

[angler]

At least 7 left last year and 3 at north are leaving at the end of this year

That seems like a lot of people to lose over the course of two seasons. I'm assuming that would not be the norm in the industry? Do you know what the cause is for the exodus?

[HowieT2]

I had heard that after last season, 2 were fired and 6 left of their own volition. Can't vouch for the accuracy of this, though.

What a great day today. Ripcord was fantastic. Top ten day.

[angler]

Sun and soft snow hard to beat that!

[MntMan4Bush]

Was on SB on Saturday when it went down around 3 I think. We were the last to unload and a guy came out of the lift house and said it was wind. I mean it was a little windy, so I kind of see that, but not that bad. I've definitely been on it in much worse. Plus with all the down time and times with misinformation this season you have to earn that trust back. I could be sitting in a class 5 hurricane right now and if they told me it was wind hold I'd raise my eyebrow a bit. Sorry. I'm jaded at this point and I will be the first to admit it's not a fair expectation I have any more.

Then went down to jump on VD, but saw it was spinning again so went all the way down and got on as people were headed up the ladder into the wheel house. So a 5 minute wind hold and people heading up top? Again I'm not an expert. I'm just asking here. It's entirely possible that is standard procedure to send people up into the wheel house on a wind hold but I hate getting the party line if it's not. Look and see I have a plastic pass and give it to me straight. I'm telling you that day a patroller skied up to HG when I was waiting in line when it went down and said "typical and laughed" actually made me feel a little better about the whole thing. Don't ask me how, but I kind of laughed and my take on the whole thing softened a bit.

SB then went down on wind hold at 4:20 or 4:30 on Saturday, but I'd say it was legit. It was gusting pretty hard. However I was a bit disappointed they didn't get VD spinning again. I mean if SB went down on hold at 3ish you know it might be coming. No idea, but could they just turn it on and send the lifties up from SB? If it's a huge complex procedure like readying a plane for take off to get a lift running again then I get it. Only 2 or 3 runs lost, but it would have been nice. Pass holder appreciation day and all.

Speaking of what was the deal on Sunday at North? I stopped skiing early on Sunday, packed up and headed over to North expecting the BBQ and band. Figured a nice lunch on the deck in the sun with some music would be a nice send off to Ellen for the season. Parked in lot 11. Walked up and there was nothing. No time was listed for the event on the ski report. Just that it would happen so I figured it must be for lunch. Did I misjudge that? Did it happen later? Did it happen at all? In the future a lunch BBQ would be nice and I think as I watched people eat their foil wrapped sandwiches it might be a bit hit. One or two guys flipping burgers and dogs all day. No big deal. It was my fault for not inquiring more on it before going.

[Go Figure]

Down for the day

Friday, April 4th - 2:40 PM

*** Super Bravo is on maintenance delay. Valley House will be open shortly. ***

I do not know what benski is trying to do but this was a "copy and paste" from the sugarbush webpage. It may have closed later for wind, we left after the breakdown.

[Dblshot]

At least 7 left last year and 3 at north are leaving at the end of this year

This is the reason for all the lift problems. No, it is not the norm for the industry, something is driving them all away, that is probably the entire department. My guess would be pay and that they can make more money elsewhere based on their experience. I sincerely hope this is not a cost cutting budget move. You want to keep lift mechanics around so they know the lifts common problems, quirks etc. It is not like fixing a car, they each have their "ghosts." I am more concerned about the crucial summer maintenance to grips, line maintenance that is key to keep the lifts SAFE. With all this turnover and inexperienced mechanics I am beginning to worry about the safety of the lifts.

[angler]

This is the reason for all the lift problems. No, it is not the norm for the industry, something is driving them all away, that is probably the entire department. My guess would be pay and that they can make more money elsewhere based on their experience. I sincerely hope this is not a cost cutting budget move. You want to keep lift mechanics around so they know the lifts common problems, quirks etc. It is not like fixing a car, they each have their "ghosts." I am more concerned about the crucial summer maintenance to grips, line maintenance that is key to keep the lifts SAFE. With all this turnover and inexperienced mechanics I am beginning to worry about the safety of the lifts.

Do you know what an average life span of a lift is? If there is one.

[southvillager]

Tuesday, April 8th - 1:30 PM

* * North Lynx is closed for the day * *


Anybody know why? Broken, wind, or just no customers to ride it?

[shadyjay]

wind.

[HowieT2]

Do you know what an average life span of a lift is? If there is one.

I may be totally wrong about this but this is my understanding. A lift is a machine which is built into a foundation. The foundational elements are the footings for the lift towers and the wheels. The mechanical elements of a lift can be fixed, upgraded or even replaced. Sensors and electrical systems can be upgraded. It is only when the foundational elements begin to deteriorate that it is beyond repair. Therefore you should measure a lifts life span by how long the footings last.

[angler]

So basically they tend to become out dated before wearing out?

[Benski]

So basically they tend to become out dated before wearing out?

Think of the single chair was about 60 when it was replaced. They also replaced the chairs and base terminal on the valley house at some point. In the lodges there is a picture of the lift from before those parts were replaced.

[angler]

Think of the single chair was about 60 when it was replaced. They also replaced the chairs and base terminal on the valley house at some point. In the lodges there is a picture of the lift from before those parts were replaced.

Understood, hope we don't have to wait another 60 years! Most of us would be dead by then. LOL

[Go Figure]

Think of the single chair was about 60 when it was replaced. They also replaced the chairs and base terminal on the valley house at some point. In the lodges there is a picture of the lift from before those parts were replaced.

Comparing most of the lifts here to the old single is like comparing a toaster to a convection oven.

[Fourwide]

Howie wrote: "I may be totally wrong about this but this is my understanding. A lift is a machine which is built into a foundation. The foundational elements are the footings for the lift towers and the wheels. The mechanical elements of a lift can be fixed, upgraded or even replaced. Sensors and electrical systems can be upgraded. It is only when the foundational elements begin to deteriorate that it is beyond repair. Therefore you should measure a lifts life span by how long the footings last."

Yes, and also the metal towers, which fatigue over time. This isn't a great analogy, but the useful life of a commercial aircraft, while depreciated for tax and accounting purposes over a short period (most often 7 years), can run upwards of 50-60 years, as parts and instruments are constantly replaced and improved and the fuselage is taken apart piece by piece and re-assembled. DC-8 aircraft manufactured in the 60s are still operating all over Africa, Asia and South America. At some point, accumulated fuselage fatigue is too great and the plane must be scrapped. I'd imagine that the towers would reach the end of their useful lives at pretty much the same time, necessitating a total replacement.

[Orca]

Practically speaking, a properly maintained lift can be kept functional long beyond the time at which technology makes it obsolete. For instance, Heaven's Gate likely can be maintained to last another 30 years; however, it's design is showing its age today. Ski areas are replacing lifts for the purpose of upgrading the skiing experience (higher capacity for shorter lines, high speed for shorter transit times) long before the lifts succumb to decrepitude. Well, at least other ski areas are doing this.

[Benski]

Practically speaking, a properly maintained lift can be kept functional long beyond the time at which technology makes it obsolete. For instance, Heaven's Gate likely can be maintained to last another 30 years; however, it's design is showing its age today. Ski areas are replacing lifts for the purpose of upgrading the skiing experience (higher capacity for shorter lines, high speed for shorter transit times) long before the lifts succumb to decrepitude. Well, at least other ski areas are doing this.

That all sound good until your trails become crowded. Some of the ski areas have situations like the Porsche event every weekend because there are so many people and it is dangerous. Hunter which recently installed a six pack and one of the trails of the lift has 10 injuries a day on one trail. Than the any day at mellan this season. I think management need to make sure that is not the future of sugarbush.

[angler]

That all sound good until your trails become crowded. Some of the ski areas have situations like the Porsche event every weekend because there are so many people and it is dangerous. Hunter which recently installed a six pack and one of the trails of the lift has 10 injuries a day on one trail. Than the any day at mellan this season. I think management need to make sure that is not the future of sugarbush.
I'm sure they could find a balance between both extremes. Let's be real, the lift situation leaves a lot to be desired.

[Hawk]

I could care less about the lift times and capacity of the HG, SB, GH and NL lifts. I only ask that they run consistently because when they do, the mountain seems to be fine with the crowds Well at least it is tolerable. The VH lift upgrade I think is a good idea. Typically older lifts have issues with aging electronics and sensor problems. Lift controls is a pretty complex deal for most lifts especially high speed detachables. I have been told that renovating the electronics to a lift is usually all that is needed to make it more reliable. But I am sure that would coast a great deal because any specialized contractor is ridiculously expensive. I will be interested to hear what is planned for this summer in the preventive maintenance. I will be up a bunch and will check in to see.

[HowieT2]

I'm sure they could find a balance between both extremes. Let's be real, the lift situation leaves a lot to be desired.

I think the point is that they don't need new lifts except to replace the vh. They don't need to add capacity at heavens gate just to get it to run reliably.

[angler]

I think the point is that they don't need new lifts except to replace the vh. They don't need to add capacity at heavens gate just to get it to run reliably.
Thats where we disagree. My point is they do need new lifts, and they can find a balance between shit shows and overcrowding the trails. There are penny of examples to model after. Anyway it's not our decision. On a better note it looks like sun and soft snow for the weekend. Lets have fun!

[HowieT2]

Thats where we disagree. My point is they do need new lifts, and they can find a balance between shit shows and overcrowding the trails. There are penny of examples to model after. Anyway it's not our decision. On a better note it looks like sun and soft snow for the weekend. Lets have fun!

why do "they need new lifts"?
you've made this statement repeatedly, but without explanation. The only reason a "new Lift" is needed is to replace an old lift whose foundation is crumbling or to increase capacity. so where are you arguing they need increased capacity other than the valley house which is in the works????
As far as Im concerned, not at any of the upper mtn lifts, hg, cr or nl. not at gatehouse nor superbravo.
and the mt ellen lifts certainly dont need increased capacity.

[angler]

why do "they need new lifts"?
you've made this statement repeatedly, but without explanation. The only reason a "new Lift" is needed is to replace an old lift whose foundation is crumbling or to increase capacity. so where are you arguing they need increased capacity other than the valley house which is in the works????
As far as Im concerned, not at any of the upper mtn lifts, hg, cr or nl. not at gatehouse nor superbravo.
and the mt ellen lifts certainly dont need increased capacity.

Well, I think they need a new top to bottom lift at ME as the summit lift is a joke. Its very slow for a very short run. At LP I would replace NL, HG, and VD. Not necessarily in that order. If you did that people would tend to ski all areas of the mountain without it taking an inordinate amount of time to get there without over crowding the trails. Again, that's my opinion.

[ahm]

Howie: The lifts rot at the place. period. Wake up to the truth. Go ski an area with modern lifts and it would blow your mind. They run all the time, they do not constantly go down. You are so used to the lifts at the place you do not realize how bad they are. NR is ancient and rarely runs. Bravo ditto. HG is unchanged from when I went to high school in the valley in the late 70s early 80s. We all realize you love the bush, but the lifts are just in need of a lot of work.

[HowieT2]

Well, I think they need a new top to bottom lift at ME as the summit lift is a joke. Its very slow for a very short run. At LP I would replace NL, HG, and VD. Not necessarily in that order. If you did that people would tend to ski all areas of the mountain without it taking an inordinate amount of time to get there without over crowding the trails. Again, that's my opinion.

you still havent said "why" they need to replace those lifts at LP. you do realize, that you're talking about several million dollars per lift. Its not something that is just done for the heck of it. I mean, if you got the cash, I'm sure we would all appreciate your donation of a new lift or two.

as for the summit, yes its slower than molasses, but i dont see the need for a lift from the bottom to the summit. I'm perfectly content doing laps on the nrx and summit and not going all the way down to the base.

[HowieT2]

Howie: The lifts rot at the place. period. Wake up to the truth. Go ski an area with modern lifts and it would blow your mind. They run all the time, they do not constantly go down. You are so used to the lifts at the place you do not realize how bad they are. NR is ancient and rarely runs. Bravo ditto. HG is unchanged from when I went to high school in the valley in the late 70s early 80s. We all realize you love the bush, but the lifts are just in need of a lot of work.

first of all, I dont disagree that the lifts need work. Heavens gate in particular. but it is simply not true that the NRX is ancient and rarely runs. Aside from the one issue they had in December, it was running normally all season. and HG was installed in 1984 I believe. dont get me wrong, I would love for some benevolent billionaire to bequeath the mtn all new lifts. But in the real world, there is only so much that can be done financially and priorities must be set. I dont think it accomplishes anything to say the lifts suck, they need new lifts without any reasoning why the issues cant be resolved more economically. Frankly, I think the lift issues this season were more the result of the problems with the lift maintenance crews than the lifts themselves.

[Dblshot]

From Killington GM:
We spend several million dollars a year on what we call “maintenance capital”. The first priority every year is lift maintenance items that help keep the lifts running reliably.
..now if they could hire a few of K's lift mechanics....Howie is right, almost all lift issues were from inexperienced lift mechanics making problems worse except the wind holds and the HG comm line being ripped off by the wind to name a few exceptions.

[angler]

you still havent said "why" they need to replace those lifts at LP. you do realize, that you're talking about several million dollars per lift. Its not something that is just done for the heck of it. I mean, if you got the cash, I'm sure we would all appreciate your donation of a new lift or two.

as for the summit, yes its slower than molasses, but i dont see the need for a lift from the bottom to the summit. I'm perfectly content doing laps on the nrx and summit and not going all the way down to the base.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding. You asked me a question and I answered it. Since you would appreciate a new lift or two maybe you should ask ownership to pony up after all it's their mountain. I'm not sure when you last skied at another mountain that SB considers their competition. If you do I think you would see how antiquated the lift system is. Again this is my opinion not sure why you feel the need to get defensive every time you ask me a question that I answer.

[angler]

From Killington GM:
We spend several million dollars a year on what we call “maintenance capital”. The first priority every year is lift maintenance items that help keep the lifts running reliably.
..now if they could hire a few of K's lift mechanics....Howie is right, almost all lift issues were from inexperienced lift mechanics making problems worse except the wind holds and the HG comm line being ripped off by the wind to name a few exceptions.

So who's fault is it that they can't hire or keep good mechanics?

[sbskier]

Remember the lifts 2 yrs ago ran at 99.3 % of the time the lifts are not the problem .they are putting $ 1,000,000 into the lifts this year and the valley house is not going to happen this year

[HowieT2]

I'm not sure what you're not understanding. You asked me a question and I answered it. Since you would appreciate a new lift or two maybe you should ask ownership to pony up after all it's their mountain. I'm not sure when you last skied at another mountain that SB considers their competition. If you do I think you would see how antiquated the lift system is. Again this is my opinion not sure why you feel the need to get defensive every time you ask me a question that I answer.

I'm sorry if that is how you interpreted my post. It wasn't meant that way (I've been on trial all week so I may be in battle mode) I was seriously asking why u think those lifts at lp need to be replaced with new lifts. Do u think they need more capacity than the current lifts provide? Because if not, I would think that doing whatever kind of mechanical/electrical tune ups/upgrades necessary to get heavens gate to operate reliably would be sufficient and orders of magnitude cheaper than brand new lifts.
There is no question that they have to do whatever needs to be done to get the current lifts to operate reliably, but beyond that, my priority for capital investment, after the vhquad, would be continued investment in snowmaking and then bringing the valley house lodge into the 21st century. I think with proper maintenance and care they can get another 10-15 years out of heavens gate and north lynx. Castlerock is practically new and the base quads are in their prime.

About the competition, I assume you mean kton and Stowe. First of all, they are vastly different operations. Corporate owned. They are both much more developed, to a degree rejected by the valley community before the current ownership took over. I mean how many units are in the new lodge at Stowe compared to clay rook and rice brook. The latter is tiny by comparison. I don't know the numbers, but I think that both kton and Stowe have double or triple the skiers visits than sugarbush. So it's really not fair to compare. But if you do, check out alpine zone forums where there were similar complaints about kton and the mgmt responded that they are working on it and they just can't do everything they want right away.
I think it's unrealistic to ask for all new lifts and like I said before, a good mechanic crew and modernization of the existing heavens gate lift is probably a reasonable allocation of resources.

[HowieT2]

So who's fault is it that they can't hire or keep good mechanics?

We r not talking about fault. We r talking about what the solution is to the lift problems this season.

[Benski]

Well, I think they need a new top to bottom lift at ME as the summit lift is a joke. Its very slow for a very short run. At LP I would replace NL, HG, and VD. Not necessarily in that order. If you did that people would tend to ski all areas of the mountain without it taking an inordinate amount of time to get there without over crowding the trails. Again, that's my opinion.

I would not replace NL and HG. jester has some traffic issues a new lift would make it worse unless you want another triple which would be wistful. NL has a similar situation on birch run unless you mean making the lift extend further down so you can get to it more easily. VD is a good move since all the trails can easily handle more traffic.

[Orca]

My personal preference is for high-speed detachable chairlifts because of their high capacity (less time in line) and rapid transit times (less time on lift). Additionally newer designs are more reliable (less time on mechanical hold) and more wind resistant than ever (less time on wind hold). Admittedly this is merely a personal preference that some share and some don't, each by their own individual degrees. My preference and all of your various preferences are purely subjective.

About the only objective thing you can say is that Sugarbush has a relative paucity of the type of lifts that I prefer and a relative abundance of old fixed-grip lifts as compared to its peers, Killington and Stowe and the other big New England areas. This is not a good thing for people who feel the same as I do about lifts. It is probably a fine thing for some other folks. It depends on what you value. There is probably is little profit in challenging people on the matter because their views will be inherently subjective.

[shadyjay]

I would not replace NL and HG. jester has some traffic issues a new lift would make it worse unless you want another triple which would be wistful. NL has a similar situation on birch run unless you mean making the lift extend further down so you can get to it more easily. VD is a good move since all the trails can easily handle more traffic.

Agreed. Places like Killington and Stowe are geared towards top-to-bottom lifts, with multiple options available from the summit. The present lift structure at Sugarbush isn't set up this way. Putting a HS quad where HG is now would be devastating to those trails. No mountains I can think of in VT have a mid mountain to summit HS quad. Well, except Mt Ellen that is. Any capacity upgrades to North Lynx would also be devastating. There's only 3 trail options, 2 of those with snowmaking.

Valley House is the only "major" lift that could handle a capacity increase. I say "major" because I can see the Village chair getting a capacity upgrade. But as for upper mountain lifts... no way. Unless we're talking about a fixed grip quad with Summit Quad-stlye chair spacing.

[Go Figure]

I am going to say that Howards continued personal attack of the lift mechanics is way over the top.
It is clear by his "I may be totally wrong about this but this is my understanding. A lift is a machine which is built into a foundation. The foundational elements are the footings for the lift towers and the wheels. The mechanical elements of a lift can be fixed, upgraded or even replaced. Sensors and electrical systems can be upgraded. It is only when the foundational elements begin to deteriorate that it is beyond repair. Therefore you should measure a lifts life span by how long the footings last." that he has no understanding of lift systems.
To look at the problem correctly you would need to know what is wrong [many are very old] with the lifts and decide if the funds to correct the problem had been allocated. Read this http://online.wsj.com/article/AP494dec261d324052b22085738e160ecc.html
"Jim Fletcher, a Colorado-based engineering consultant for ski resorts" "Fletcher said most ski lifts were originally designed for a lifespan of 20 to 30 years. He said they're considered "aging equipment" at 20 years and just plain "old" at 25"

These modern HSQ lifts are like owning an Audi. The first four [10 lift years] are great, next 5 [10 more LY] require a fair amount of work, after that open your wallet and bend over. Not to mention lack of factory replacements a fter a certain amount of time has passed, kinda like Microsoft ending tech support for XP.
The issues with SB are most likely age related as they spin it empty 7 days a week for a good portion of the summer adding to its wear and tear. looking back at the week plus breakdown in Feb. they brought in Doppelmayr engineers from Quebec who had to redo the operating system to get it going again. And it is still having issues.
Remember Les? all of the new lifts he put in are going on 20 yo and require lots of maintainance, current ownership and fanboys cannot lay the blame at ASCs feet anymore.
The HG drive station is worn out, plain and simple, most likely requires a major overhaul. Northridge is a very old, antique like, design, moved, bandaided and most likely very worn out and it had several breakdowns mid season. Sunny D 35 YO and not running the last two weekends so the park rats had to hike or go the long way GM.
It is going to require a large sum of $$ to get things up to date, lets hope for the best.

/end ramble, masters highlights now.

[Hawk]

We r not talking about fault. We r talking about what the solution is to the lift problems this season.

Well you aren't but some on hear are. ;-) I heard the details of the HG fiasco the other day. There is no way I sharing that on here.

[Hawk]

My personal preference is for high-speed detachable chairlifts because of their high capacity (less time in line) and rapid transit times (less time on lift). Additionally newer designs are more reliable (less time on mechanical hold) and more wind resistant than ever (less time on wind hold). Admittedly this is merely a personal preference that some share and some don't, each by their own individual degrees. My preference and all of your various preferences are purely subjective.

About the only objective thing you can say is that Sugarbush has a relative paucity of the type of lifts that I prefer and a relative abundance of old fixed-grip lifts as compared to its peers, Killington and Stowe and the other big New England areas. This is not a good thing for people who feel the same as I do about lifts. It is probably a fine thing for some other folks. It depends on what you value. There is probably is little profit in challenging people on the matter because their views will be inherently subjective.

Orca the problem with high speed detachables are that they are highly susceptible to weather. Wind and Ice can shut them down much faster than a fixed grip. I have to agree with the statement that a large increased capacity at much of the areas at this mountain would be a bad thing. VH is the one place that could use an upgrade.

[angler]

I am going to say that Howards continued personal attack of the lift mechanics is way over the top.
It is clear by his "I may be totally wrong about this but this is my understanding. A lift is a machine which is built into a foundation. The foundational elements are the footings for the lift towers and the wheels. The mechanical elements of a lift can be fixed, upgraded or even replaced. Sensors and electrical systems can be upgraded. It is only when the foundational elements begin to deteriorate that it is beyond repair. Therefore you should measure a lifts life span by how long the footings last." that he has no understanding of lift systems.
To look at the problem correctly you would need to know what is wrong [many are very old] with the lifts and decide if the funds to correct the problem had been allocated. Read this http://online.wsj.com/article/AP494dec261d324052b22085738e160ecc.html
"Jim Fletcher, a Colorado-based engineering consultant for ski resorts" "Fletcher said most ski lifts were originally designed for a lifespan of 20 to 30 years. He said they're considered "aging equipment" at 20 years and just plain "old" at 25"

These modern HSQ lifts are like owning an Audi. The first four [10 lift years] are great, next 5 [10 more LY] require a fair amount of work, after that open your wallet and bend over. Not to mention lack of factory replacements a fter a certain amount of time has passed, kinda like Microsoft ending tech support for XP.
The issues with SB are most likely age related as they spin it empty 7 days a week for a good portion of the summer adding to its wear and tear. looking back at the week plus breakdown in Feb. they brought in Doppelmayr engineers from Quebec who had to redo the operating system to get it going again. And it is still having issues.
Remember Les? all of the new lifts he put in are going on 20 yo and require lots of maintainance, current ownership and fanboys cannot lay the blame at ASCs feet anymore.
The HG drive station is worn out, plain and simple, most likely requires a major overhaul. Northridge is a very old, antique like, design, moved, bandaided and most likely very worn out and it had several breakdowns mid season. Sunny D 35 YO and not running the last two weekends so the park rats had to hike or go the long way GM.
It is going to require a large sum of $$ to get things up to date, lets hope for the best.

/end ramble, masters highlights now.

Thanks for the article. It was an interesting read.

[angler]

We r not talking about fault. We r talking about what the solution is to the lift problems this season.

Howie, you're a trial lawyer you have to realize the problem at the mountain goes way beyond lift mechanics. There are real problems here that were self inflicted. At some point in time people need to take responsibility to be able to move forward.

[angler]

I'm sorry if that is how you interpreted my post. It wasn't meant that way (I've been on trial all week so I may be in battle mode) I was seriously asking why u think those lifts at lp need to be replaced with new lifts. Do u think they need more capacity than the current lifts provide? Because if not, I would think that doing whatever kind of mechanical/electrical tune ups/upgrades necessary to get heavens gate to operate reliably would be sufficient and orders of magnitude cheaper than brand new lifts.
There is no question that they have to do whatever needs to be done to get the current lifts to operate reliably, but beyond that, my priority for capital investment, after the vhquad, would be continued investment in snowmaking and then bringing the valley house lodge into the 21st century. I think with proper maintenance and care they can get another 10-15 years out of heavens gate and north lynx. Castlerock is practically new and the base quads are in their prime.

About the competition, I assume you mean kton and Stowe. First of all, they are vastly different operations. Corporate owned. They are both much more developed, to a degree rejected by the valley community before the current ownership took over. I mean how many units are in the new lodge at Stowe compared to clay rook and rice brook. The latter is tiny by comparison. I don't know the numbers, but I think that both kton and Stowe have double or triple the skiers visits than sugarbush. So it's really not fair to compare. But if you do, check out alpine zone forums where there were similar complaints about kton and the mgmt responded that they are working on it and they just can't do everything they want right away.
I think it's unrealistic to ask for all new lifts and like I said before, a good mechanic crew and modernization of the existing heavens gate lift is probably a reasonable allocation of resources.

Thanks for the clarification sounds like a long week. I wasn't asserting that all the lifts get upgraded at once. I know it's costly to replace a lift. I was responding to what lifts I thought needed to be upgraded and the reasons why. I get Shadyjay's point about Stowe and K being more of a top to bottom centric mountain. If you follow the rest of the thinking and what I think you are saying SB will never be able to upgrade the lifts because they will put to much pressure on the mountain. That just can't be accurate. There has to be a way to find a balance between embracing modern technology compared to riding antiquated lifts. I get the fact that you are ok with the lift system but you have to admit the lifts are old and outdated. If you think about it no matter what lift you take to get to the top of the mountain it's a slow, slow lift that takes forever to get there.

[angler]

Orca the problem with high speed detachables are that they are highly susceptible to weather. Wind and Ice can shut them down much faster than a fixed grip. I have to agree with the statement that a large increased capacity at much of the areas at this mountain would be a bad thing. VH is the one place that could use an upgrade.

With modern technology is that still true?

[MntMan4Bush]

With modern technology is that still true?

I'm going to have to stop and disagree with you right there. Have you ever rode up Inverness? That thing is a rocket. I cling to the rail for fear of getting flung off as it majestically crests the head wall. Terrifying.

On a serious note though I don't know much about lifts. I kind of think of them a bit like rebuilding a car though (which I also don't know a ton about. :)). You can choose to buy a new one or pick up a frame of an older one and throw whatever parts you want in it. In my mind we have the frame. We have a 1956 F100. A workhorse in it's time. But replacing with the same parts from 1956 is getting hard to do and hard to find. So why not throw a Chevy 700 R4 into it? Maybe replace a few other things. More expensive then maintaining the existing pieces that came with it, but less expensive then replacing the entire lift and structure. Comparing to a car rebuild is a good analogy too because older cars, and I imagine older lifts are easier to do since they don't have nearly the same electronics modern ones have.

I agree with much of what Howie has said that we don't need more uphill capacity. Or at least not much more. Rebuilt lifts with some modern updates/parts would mean better reliability and possibly you could squeeze a little more speed out of them so the uphill capacity would increase a slight amount and make for shorter lift times when the hoards of quad packers descend upon us. But totally new lifts with much more capacity? Can you imagine more people on Deathspout on an icy day?

Fixed grips in my mind seem to be the most resilient when it comes to ice and wind so please don't get rid of those. If I could think of a good place for it I'd love a few surface lifts. J Bar up Spillsville to cycle it anyone? That would be a fun ride up? Mind the down coming traffic.

Where I part ways with Howie and think he is overworked and somehow delusional is his statement about Northridge being anywhere near reliable. I honestly cannot believe anyone could have this opinion. In my mind that is the worst lift on the mountain and should be replaced. Maybe I'm jaded from years of it breaking. Maybe that thing was Old Faithful this year, but I don't care. I don't trust it. It's trying to build up our confidence somehow so it can betray us later on an epic scale. Maybe it will start running backwards next time I get on it. No idea. It's just evil. Plus it's critical to skiing North much more than VHD is to skiing South. When it goes down North goes down in my mind. No point in being there.

[Fourwide]

Someone brought up congestion on Birch. I totally agree. I think Lynx should be rethought. Birch is viewed as an "upper mountain" experience by intermediate skiers and is wrecked by noon by traffic and sun. Morningstar and Sunrise are underused, as those are tougher trails and there are better options at that level elsewhere on the mountain. The Lynx area would be better used if Sunrise were regularly groomed. It would then serve as a tougher version of Birch, likely attracting all levels of skiers, easing the Birch overload and more spreading out the mountain.

[southvillager]

Increasing uphill capacity would be a side effect of new lifts, I agree. If the uphill traffic is too much for the existing trails, then maybe widening a few trails or (forgive me) cutting a couple of new trails might be a solution. North lynx is an example of a zone that seems to have potential for new trails. A loop around the bottleneck at the top of Birch run, or just widening the entrance would solve issues. The main part of Birch Run itself is enormous once you are past the split. Just two runs and the lift line, it seems like of a lot of mountain left to open up.

Sugarbush has done a nice job of adding loads of tree skiing. But in my 25+ years at Sugarbush I can't recall one new groom-able trail being cut. I know, I know, National Forest...

[Dblshot]

Cutting another trail to skiers left of Sunrise, a jester type work road trail would help but I'm not sure if that is in bear habitat. How about removing every other chair from NL to decrease the capacity a bit? it is a lot of people for 3 trails.

[Hawk]

With modern technology is that still true?

Yes it is. The issue with modern detachables is that they have way to many sensors that can get snafu'd. Also when the cable ices up, the chairs start to get mis-spaced. They actually slip and the spacing gets irregular. This sets off all kinds of bells and whistles. They can not load the chair until this gets corrected. They also have pressure and stress sensors that go off in the wind. It is not just a maintenance guy standing there at a tower that tells them to shut down. Fixed grips do not have a lot of this. They are much less sophisticated.

[Spartan82]

I'm sure most who post on this board get this email from SB, but here is the early line on lift/snow making capex for the summer:

The cash that is raised from spring pass sales goes into our summer capital account, and our first priority is lifts. Our team has presented me with a list of projects well beyond the significant normal preventative maintenance that we do each summer. They have identified slightly more than $1 million of mechanical and electrical upgrades to the following lifts: Super Bravo Express Quad, Gate House Express Quad, Heaven's Gate Triple, North Lynx Triple, North Ridge Express Quad, Summit Quad, and Sunshine Double. I have approved all of them. These upgrades should give us the reliability that we all expect. Additionally, we are proceeding with the permitting of a new Valley House lift. Timing will not allow installation this fall, but if we get our permits now we will be in a position to begin next spring. The fixed-grip quad we plan to install will triple the uphill capacity of Valley House and the ride itself will be considerably quicker.

Additionally, we continue to do major upgrades to our snowmaking system. Although replacing pipe, rebuilding motors, and upgrading hydrants is not work that is very visible, it is nevertheless essential in keeping our system healthy and efficient. We will be investing approximately another $1 million in these mountain projects.

[Benski]

I agree new trail on the left of sunrise. Also a trail on the right of jester. I think that would help. there should be a trail heading from sleeper to gondolier for skiers. It would be so much easier than heading behind the gate house to get to super bravo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MntMan4Bush]

I'm sure most who post on this board get this email from SB, but here is the early line on lift/snow making capex for the summer:



I don't think I've gotten the email yet. Interesting post. I'm kind of getting to the point where I agree that most of what needs to be said has been said already and there's no point in belaboring it any more. However I almost can't resist. I mean I truly have no idea what is required by a mountain to maintain for costs and if this is a little or a lot. I mean a lot of course to me if it was a discussion about maintaining my garden. No idea in relative terms. I also honestly appreciate Win writing and keeping us informed. He doesn't have to and I don't want to take away from that.

It's just as soon as I read it I couldn't help but chuckle and think of Chris Rock's Bigger Badder Blacker where he says "I love people who say "I take CARE of my kids". You're supposed to! What do you want a cookie?". I'm not trying to be negative here though I'm afraid it can't help but come across as so, but in any case maybe someone else who's seen it might laugh. Tell me you can't hear him saying it in your head now?

[HowieT2]

I'm going to have to stop and disagree with you right there. Have you ever rode up Inverness? That thing is a rocket. I cling to the rail for fear of getting flung off as it majestically crests the head wall. Terrifying.

On a serious note though I don't know much about lifts. I kind of think of them a bit like rebuilding a car though (which I also don't know a ton about. :)). You can choose to buy a new one or pick up a frame of an older one and throw whatever parts you want in it. In my mind we have the frame. We have a 1956 F100. A workhorse in it's time. But replacing with the same parts from 1956 is getting hard to do and hard to find. So why not throw a Chevy 700 R4 into it? Maybe replace a few other things. More expensive then maintaining the existing pieces that came with it, but less expensive then replacing the entire lift and structure. Comparing to a car rebuild is a good analogy too because older cars, and I imagine older lifts are easier to do since they don't have nearly the same electronics modern ones have.

I agree with much of what Howie has said that we don't need more uphill capacity. Or at least not much more. Rebuilt lifts with some modern updates/parts would mean better reliability and possibly you could squeeze a little more speed out of them so the uphill capacity would increase a slight amount and make for shorter lift times when the hoards of quad packers descend upon us. But totally new lifts with much more capacity? Can you imagine more people on Deathspout on an icy day?

Fixed grips in my mind seem to be the most resilient when it comes to ice and wind so please don't get rid of those. If I could think of a good place for it I'd love a few surface lifts. J Bar up Spillsville to cycle it anyone? That would be a fun ride up? Mind the down coming traffic.

Where I part ways with Howie and think he is overworked and somehow delusional is his statement about Northridge being anywhere near reliable. I honestly cannot believe anyone could have this opinion. In my mind that is the worst lift on the mountain and should be replaced. Maybe I'm jaded from years of it breaking. Maybe that thing was Old Faithful this year, but I don't care. I don't trust it. It's trying to build up our confidence somehow so it can betray us later on an epic scale. Maybe it will start running backwards next time I get on it. No idea. It's just evil. Plus it's critical to skiing North much more than VHD is to skiing South. When it goes down North goes down in my mind. No point in being there.

I'll stand by my thoughts about the nrx. It was horrible up to about 3 seasons ago, but since then i haven't noticed any issues except for the problem at the beginning of the season. My son was over at Ellen almost every weekend day this season and he says it was running fine. I will say, that the rickety way the chair comes around the wheel does not inspire confidence, but i think it's bad reputation is more a consequence of its past poor performance than it's current status.

[HowieT2]

I'm sure most who post on this board get this email from SB, but here is the early line on lift/snow making capex for the summer:

The cash that is raised from spring pass sales goes into our summer capital account, and our first priority is lifts. Our team has presented me with a list of projects well beyond the significant normal preventative maintenance that we do each summer. They have identified slightly more than $1 million of mechanical and electrical upgrades to the following lifts: Super Bravo Express Quad, Gate House Express Quad, Heaven's Gate Triple, North Lynx Triple, North Ridge Express Quad, Summit Quad, and Sunshine Double. I have approved all of them. These upgrades should give us the reliability that we all expect. Additionally, we are proceeding with the permitting of a new Valley House lift. Timing will not allow installation this fall, but if we get our permits now we will be in a position to begin next spring. The fixed-grip quad we plan to install will triple the uphill capacity of Valley House and the ride itself will be considerably quicker.

Additionally, we continue to do major upgrades to our snowmaking system. Although replacing pipe, rebuilding motors, and upgrading hydrants is not work that is very visible, it is nevertheless essential in keeping our system healthy and efficient. We will be investing approximately another $1 million in these mountain projects.

There you have it. Doing what needs to be done. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty confident they'll get the lift situation sorted out. Then we can get back to complaining about the snowmaking.

Looking forward to some sweet spring turns this weekend.

[Ride Delaware ?]

The NRX had that issue early season, but afterward it performed pretty smoothly. There were the occasional maintenance holds, but most were cleared up within a couple minutes and reloading shortly thereafter. I hope the upgrades and maintenance perform up to par.

Shady, not to nitpick, as there are very few mountains with mid mountain high speeds, but Pico is similar in size to ME, albeit shorter, and it boasts an HSQ to the true summit, even though that is nearly 600' shorter than ME.

[Benski]

The NRX had that issue early season, but afterward it performed pretty smoothly. There were the occasional maintenance holds, but most were cleared up within a couple minutes and reloading shortly thereafter. I hope the upgrades and maintenance perform up to par.

Shady, not to nitpick, as there are very few mountains with mid mountain high speeds, but Pico is similar in size to ME, albeit shorter, and it boasts an HSQ to the true summit, even though that is nearly 600' shorter than ME.

The high speed at pico appears to be similar to north ridge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[angler]

There you have it. Doing what needs to be done. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty confident they'll get the lift situation sorted out. Then we can get back to complaining about the snowmaking.

Looking forward to some sweet spring turns this weekend.
I have to hand it to you, you're the eternal optimist! That why you need me in your life to balance you out! :wink: Not sure if thats a lot of money to spend on a mountain or not but it sure sounds like a lot. Hope you are right! I guess we will have to wait till next year to see. Not sure what we are going to argue about till then?
Any :idea:

[Orca]

Orca the problem with high speed detachables are that they are highly susceptible to weather. Wind and Ice can shut them down much faster than a fixed grip. I have to agree with the statement that a large increased capacity at much of the areas at this mountain would be a bad thing. VH is the one place that could use an upgrade.

My understanding is that modern high-speed detachables are designed and installed to be much more tolerant to high winds. The lifts have more sophisticated sensors with auto-slow and auto-stop functions and, depending on design, heavier chairs and lower towers. There is some interesting information and links to various chairlift videos at: http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=9793. A liftie speaks and has a video of running the Snowmass Villiage Express (VX) in winds up to 60 mph.

[MntMan4Bush]

I'll stand by my thoughts about the nrx. It was horrible up to about 3 seasons ago, but since then i haven't noticed any issues except for the problem at the beginning of the season. My son was over at Ellen almost every weekend day this season and he says it was running fine. I will say, that the rickety way the chair comes around the wheel does not inspire confidence, but i think it's bad reputation is more a consequence of its past poor performance than it's current status.

Well you are probably right about bad reputation. To be honest I didn't get to north much this year and I did state that my opinion might be based on being jaded from prior experiences. This year it may have been fine after the initial issue early on. I'll defer to you on that. As for the last 3 seasons it being fine.....well I'll disagree here.

It is nice to see Win spending money on the lifts. As mentioned it seems like a lot, but I can't help but wonder that maybe if they were maintained properly all along then it wouldn't be so much now. I certainly don't feel sorry for him nor am I cheering out loud over it. Barring the VH replacement, maintaining your lifts so they run properly and replacing motors and pipe for snow making so they actually work is the bare minimum. C+. I mean no one is carrying me on their shoulders because I change my oil every 3,000 miles.

It's the spring though. The sun is out. The snow is soft. I'll try and get back on a positive track because shortly I'll be slicing golf balls into the woods and swatting black flies on the trails. I'll leave with a "I take CARE of my kids....." to sum up my thoughts on this.

[HowieT2]

My understanding is that modern high-speed detachables are designed and installed to be much more tolerant to high winds. The lifts have more sophisticated sensors with auto-slow and auto-stop functions and, depending on design, heavier chairs and lower towers. There is some interesting information and links to various chairlift videos at: http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=9793. A liftie speaks and has a video of running the Snowmass Villiage Express (VX) in winds up to 60 mph.

Regardless, none of the upper mtn lifts warrant the capacity of a hsq. They are significantly more expensive than the fixed grip. And since they serve limited terrain, the trails couldn't handle that amount of traffic. I can see hg being replaced with a quad but that's about it.

[angler]

A quad on HG would be a big improvement especially if it went up a little further so everyone didn't have to skate up the hill.

[Orca]

Because the last two posts specifically advocated a fixed-grip quad on HG, I want to try to clear up a misconception about lift capacities. Performance of lifts is primarily measured in two ways: (1) uphill capacity and (2) transit time. Now, everyone knows that a detachable high-speed lift has a shorter transit time than a fixed-grip; that is easily noticed by comparing the ride times. Perhaps unintuitively however, uphill capacity is not significantly more on a detachable than on a fixed-grip, something that is easily shown using a simple calculation. In order to compute uphill capacity, one merely counts the number of seconds between loading chairs and then performs some simple math. For example, Super Bravo chairs load every about every six seconds, which is 10 chairs per minute or equivalently 600 chairs per hour. 600 chairs each carrying a maximum load of 4 people means a maximum uphill capacity of 2400 skiers per hour. (Of course the maximum capacity neglects partially full chairs, stoppage, etc.) The interesting thing is that a fixed-grip with the maximum density of chairs on the rope loads people at about every 6 seconds also. That means that the throughput calculation is exactly the same for a fixed-grip quad with a 6 second interval: 2400 skiers per hour. It turns out that the capacity of a lift is not at all dependent on the rope speed, but merely on the load rate. What limits the load rate is how fast people can get into position to be picked up by the chair. Now, to be precise you have to get the chair interval timed right (not just counting in your head like I do). You might find high-speed lifts have more like 5.5 second chair intervals and dense fixed-grips might have a 6.5 interval, so there might be a slight increase in uphill capacity for the detachable because they are marginally easier to load. But to first order, the uphill capacity of a high-speed detachable quad is the same as a closely-spaced fixed-grip quad.

[Benski]

A quad on HG would be a big improvement especially if it went up a little further so everyone didn't have to skate up the hill.

I think the reason the lift does not go all the way up is so there are less wind holds. The top of the mountain blocks the wind


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[Plowboy]

I think the reason the lift does not go all the way up is so there are less wind holds. The top of the mountain blocks the wind

What I remember , it was in the Forest service permit...that when the Gondi was replaced...the foundation had to go and the HG could not end on the summit. I think it was more about blasting, erosion and regrowth.

OT........how about adding a few more bartender's on a busy sunny sat. Felt sorry for the CR Pub guy's......did what they could, but it was a major cluster.............!!!!!!

[Go Figure]

OT........how about adding a few more bartender's on a busy sunny sat. Felt sorry for the CR Pub guy's......did what they could, but it was a major cluster.............!!!!!!

Again. money left on the table through poor design. I still believe the whole base area was "designed" on a paper napkin over a bottle of scotch late at night. The CRP is the most poorly conceived ski bar in the history of American Ski Areas, don't fotget what it was before the "addition". Glad we set up on the hill and stayed away from the basement.

[Hawk]

I think that the bartenders like it that way and the decision has been made with their input. Another Bartender would mean another person to split the tips. Just a casual observation. Nothing to back that up.

[gostan]

I have always detested the Design of the CRP. I employ several architects in our real estate development business and they each have various expertise. I would not hire any of our architects to design a bar and pub. Whoever designed the CRP never should have been hired. I used to go in peace to the bar at Timbers for real glasses for my beers and booze, but the days of walking in and scooping up a bar seat are few and far between with the huge influx of skiers and families, etc.

[Plowboy]

I think that the bartenders like it that way and the decision has been made with their input. Another Bartender would mean another person to split the tips. Just a casual observation. Nothing to back that up.

Yes, after discussing this with some friends yesterday, that was the same conclusion we came up with!!!!! A service bartender and 2 bartenders would work much better. A tub of retro beers out front????

[angler]

I think that the bartenders like it that way and the decision has been made with their input. Another Bartender would mean another person to split the tips. Just a casual observation. Nothing to back that up.

One might think if you had another bartender you would increase sales which in turn would increase tips. Not to mention better service.

[Hawk]

One might think if you had another bartender you would increase sales which in turn would increase tips. Not to mention better service.

Dude, who said that you could use logic. ;-) Don't cloud the issues with logic. Geeze!

I really don't know what they are thinking. It would make total sense. This is one area of operations that I do not have lots of friends working for the mountain so I really do not have an informed opinion

[Benski]

One might think if you had another bartender you would increase sales which in turn would increase tips. Not to mention better service.

But the bar tenders would have to split those tips. you would need double the tips to make it a good move for the bar tender.

[Tin Woodsman]

I have always detested the Design of the CRP. I employ several architects in our real estate development business and they each have various expertise. I would not hire any of our architects to design a bar and pub. Whoever designed the CRP never should have been hired. I used to go in peace to the bar at Timbers for real glasses for my beers and booze, but the days of walking in and scooping up a bar seat are few and far between with the huge influx of skiers and families, etc.

Amen. It never ceases to amaze me how the new GH lodge is 2x the size of the building it replaced yet seems to hold 1/2 the people.

Going down to the CRP reminds me of pounding beers in an overcrowded basement in high school. No thanks.

[Benski]

I think there are significant more people now plus i think the majority of the seats in the valley house are empty. I think if the valley house and the gate house were equaly as crowded, the lodges would not be packed. Maby the valley house should serve something other than lesser versions of gate house food.

[Fourwide]

Well, I guess we all agree that CRP leaves much to be desired. I'd suggest leaving the annex as is, but replacing several of the large tables in the middle of the room with smaller and taller tables with tall stools (much as was done in Timbers). That should provide more practical seating and improve flow. Thankfully, Henri's bar is well engineered.

[angler]

But he bar tenders would have to split those tips. you would need double the tips to make it a good move for the bar tender.

I would think the priority would be better service, more sales, increase in tips. Sometimes what is better for the employee might not be in concert with the best interest of the business. Also I think they would only have to increase the tips by 50% not double, but math is not a strong suit of mine.

[djd66]

But he bar tenders would have to split those tips. you would need double the tips to make it a good move for the bar tender.

This is one time where I have to agree with Angler. (this one time - and one time only :) )They should double or triple the staff that they have in both CRP + Timbers. If Win is reading this,... please listen to my post LOUD + CLEAR - there is a ton of money being left on the table because it is impossible for me to get a beer (or brown water) during peak hours. It has come to the point where I do not go to either of these establishments on Saturday after skiing (when I want to drink) I end up going home and enjoying a beverage without have to do battle at the bar. I can not tell you how many times I have had this experience - no clue why they don't have more bartenders. Hell, I'd buy a Claybrook condo if there was a way to get a beer on some days. There is certainly space for more people to work back there. Food + Beverage is one area that they could easily double the revenue if they improved the experience.

[Benski]

I would think the priority would be better service, more sales, increase in tips. Sometimes what is better for the employee might not be in concert with the best interest of the business. Also I think they would only have to increase the tips by 50% not double, but math is not a strong suit of mine.

you would need the tips to double because the tips are being split in half.

[Benski]

This is one time where I have to agree with Angler. (this one time - and one time only :) )They should double or triple the staff that they have in both CRP + Timbers. If Win is reading this,... please listen to my post LOUD + CLEAR - there is a ton of money being left on the table because it is impossible for me to get a beer (or brown water) during peak hours. It has come to the point where I do not go to either of these establishments on Saturday after skiing (when I want to drink) I end up going home and enjoying a beverage without have to do battle at the bar. I can not tell you how many times I have had this experience - no clue why they don't have more bartenders. Hell, I'd buy a Claybrook condo if there was a way to get a beer on some days. There is certainly space for more people to work back there. Food + Beverage is one area that they could easily double the revenue if they improved the experience.

I don't know enough about the bar to argue about revenue and whether changes would be beneficial to the mountain and the guests but I was just pointing out that the bar tender benefits from receiving all the tips.

[Go Figure]

I have never heard of a sucessful bar or restaurant allowing employees to understaff to make more tips. This makes no sense at all but with many of the other issues around here I wouldn't be surprized. These bartenders are pulling in $4-500 on a busy Saturday while hundreds of skiers go home with thier green in their pockets. And not only is the crp too small, it is the horrid flat black paint covering the walls and ceiling makes it unbearable.
Speaking of money on the table there is more to come with the closing days nearing. When you have the skiing at the Valley House but serve no food or drink out of the VH lodge people do not spend $. What a horrible disconnect having to walk away from the long liftline down the hill to the GH or CRP to get a beer or some food and then walk back up to rejoin the party. The whole Sugarbush spring skiing scene is like a festival with a roped off beer garden in the farthest corner of the venue.
I like the idea of high tables in the crp to allow more folks to have a place to rest a beer. Another thing we noticed on our few visits is the non skiiing mom that snags a table and 8 chairs, sits there with a bottomless pot of tea updating her facebook while her a friends family wander in and out never really ordering much. If you want to "hang out" go upstairs. Also way too many children in the bar.

[Go Figure]

you would need the tips to double because the tips are being split in half.

The math is strong here ^^

Two bartenders spliting $1000 = $500 each, 3 = $333, do 50% more business and 3 split $1500 = $500 each.

[southvillager]

I have never heard of a sucessful bar or restaurant allowing employees to understaff to make more tips. This makes no sense at all but with many of the other issues around here I wouldn't be surprized. These bartenders are pulling in $4-500 on a busy Saturday while hundreds of skiers go home with thier green in their pockets. And not only is the crp too small, it is the horrid flat black paint covering the walls and ceiling makes it unbearable.
Speaking of money on the table there is more to come with the closing days nearing. When you have the skiing at the Valley House but serve no food or drink out of the VH lodge people do not spend $. What a horrible disconnect having to walk away from the long liftline down the hill to the GH or CRP to get a beer or some food and then walk back up to rejoin the party. The whole Sugarbush spring skiing scene is like a festival with a roped off beer garden in the farthest corner of the venue.
I like the idea of high tables in the crp to allow more folks to have a place to rest a beer. Another thing we noticed on our few visits is the non skiiing mom that snags a table and 8 chairs, sits there with a bottomless pot of tea updating her facebook while her a friends family wander in and out never really ordering much. If you want to "hang out" go upstairs. Also way too many children in the bar.

The examples of leaving money on the table are endless. Last June a group of us were up for the Brew-grass beer tasting. It was sold out, so hundreds of people (mostly guys) were there on the patio and walkway between timbers and CRP. As the tasting wound down late in the afternoon, we thought we would hang out at the CRP, eat some dinner, and watch the Bruins in the playoff game. It was game 5 of the Stanley Cup Finals, a Saturday night. Bruins. Finals. Hundreds of guys. Perfect weather. A bar.

The told us to leave. They were having an employee party.

[angler]

)TThis is one time where I have to agree with Angler. (this one time - and one time only :)hey should double or triple the staff that they have in both CRP + Timbers. If Win is reading this,... please listen to my post LOUD + CLEAR - there is a ton of money being left on the table because it is impossible for me to get a beer (or brown water) during peak hours. It has come to the point where I do not go to either of these establishments on Saturday after skiing (when I want to drink) I end up going home and enjoying a beverage without have to do battle at the bar. I can not tell you how many times I have had this experience - no clue why they don't have more bartenders. Hell, I'd buy a Claybrook condo if there was a way to get a beer on some days. There is certainly space for more people to work back there. Food + Beverage is one area that they could easily double the revenue if they improved the experience.

Welcome to the dark side even for this brief moment in time. :twisted: Can you imagine all the dollars that could be spent on new lifts and snow making if they listen to you? BTW if you do buy Claybrook can a catch a ride on that 7:30 express? I promise I will be on my best behavior!

[s_angel0]

CRP is PAINFUL. Tried to get a couple of drinks this past sat (wanted a mixed drink otherwise would have went up to the patio where there was no one in line for the switchback keg) and I stood there for almost 15 full minutes. So much of the b'tenders' time was spend servicing the wait staff. Then a b'tender's buddy would slide on up, give them a shout out and get served! it was truly infuriating....I stuck it out but didn't even consider a much wanted second drink. Sigh.

[Benski]

The math is strong here ^^

Two bartenders spliting $1000 = $500 each, 3 = $333, do 50% more business and 3 split $1500 = $500 each.

i thought there was only one bar tender.

[Hawk]

There are two. Shawn and Richard. They do have a third bar back person on most days helping with the waitresses and stocking. If you get a table and have a waitress it actually goes pretty good. But at the Bar it is a nightmare unless you get lucky and catch their eye. They work really hard but the sheer volume is overwhelming.

[MntMan4Bush]

There have been seasons over the course of the "new and improved CRP that they did in fact have a 3rd bartender. One (can't remember his name) was the guy who built the stone steps that go up the side of the pub to the upstairs deck. The other was a girl who is now mostly a waitress.

I wonder if the decision to have or not have a 3rd bartender has more to do with the layout of the room than anything else. It could be when they did have a 3rd bartender they didn't see enough increased revenues to sustain one.

Think about the bar space and the room you actually have to order a beer.

On the left you have that small cubby section. If you do not have a forward operating base established here there's no way you're getting in to order a drink. People are shoulder to shoulder in here and it is prime real estate because you're locked in and have bar space for people sitting and a few standing.

The left outside corner is next and a decent place to grab a beer as there are no tables behind you. Moving around you have that nice structural steel post there blocking the bar and the space around and behind it creating a choke point for all traffic with the tables behind it. Excellent design feature. We're redoing some stuff at our golf club next year and I'm wondering if that architect is available. I'd love to see if he can maybe get a few more those up beams up for us in key places, maybe make the ordering station for the bar in a crawl through space that flows through a river of crocodiles and perhaps have the water cooler on the ceiling, but with a handicap accessible ramp to get to it of course. Gotta stay with code.

The right outside corner of the bar is almost OK but you still have the tables behind you and the only path to get to the other side of the room/bar which has some tables but not much actual volume capacity.
Which if you're new to the bar you don't realize until you shove your way over there only to turn around before settling on the right hand corner of the bar to order.

That leaves the right side of the bar which isn't very big, but does have ample space behind it, except that is where the entrance is so most people step in and stop and look around for a bit creating a clog. Then they see the bar, realize that this is really the only place to get a drink and queue up. So the majority of people are trying to get a drink from this side.

Add in the fact that any bar space is valuable because it's the only place to get a drink and groups form up blocking off more access. It's not really our.....ummmm...their fault. There's really no other place to go. Those giant table fill up pretty quickly, at least by the time I get in. I guess they're big enough surface area wise I could setup my own table and chairs on top in the middle of them and do a tiered thing, but I'm lazy so what can I tell you.

Anyways my guess is that even adding another bartender would not help out much. It's more the design of the bar itself that is prohibitive. Maybe though it would help for when anyone steps up and orders a round of 12 Naked Flaming Mud Scientists with a twist of lime stopping them from pulling beers, but for the most part it's probably not moving much volume.

I again stand by the statement that the rental room, which is upstairs, high ceilings and full of light, would make a great place for a bar. Might need to be expanded a bit more, but you could push out up towards GH chair a bit and have some big windows looking at the actual mountain. Or maybe keep the CRP, toss a few pool tables in the side room and put a pub in the rental room and build a new rental building all together. If we're going to be stuck in the basement though can we at least get some darker colors on the walls? Maybe put some shades on those windows and pump in some depressing music like a loop of The Cure and The Smiths. I'm thinking possibly have a poetry reading night for hipsters? I don't know. I just don't feel self loathing enough when I'm in there. There's got to be something more they could do.

[Fourwide]

"Hell, I'd buy a Claybrook condo if there was a way to get a beer on some days."

Now, I don't mind the Claybrookers cutting the lift lines, but no cutting the beer line!

[Fourwide]

"I like the idea of high tables in the crp to allow more folks to have a place to rest a beer. Another thing we noticed on our few visits is the non skiiing mom that snags a table and 8 chairs, sits there with a bottomless pot of tea updating her facebook while her a friends family wander in and out never really ordering much. If you want to "hang out" go upstairs. Also way too many children in the bar."

Right, replace the big tables with smaller, taller tables and the moms and kids will stay upstairs.

[MntMan4Bush]

Right, replace the big tables with smaller, taller tables and the moms and kids will stay upstairs.

That would almost be an option if the caf stayed open upstairs for drinks (or anything). It shuts down.

I remember as a kid getting a handful of quarters and being pushed off to a arcade/game room for a bit. Kept kids out of the bar and was a built in check in system for when you ran out of quarters and needed more, but I guess times are different now. A handful of quarters would probably buy 2 minutes of time and I'm not sure anyone plays video games any more.

Bring on the high tops. I'll just throw my kid in a higher chair. Moms (and dads) enjoy drinks as well. It's not an all night club. It's an apres ski bar. Pre-spring hours when I looked around and there were only 30 other people in the bar (10-15 in my group) at 6 and later I'd wager that based on longevity alone I more than made up for the money offset that my 3 foot tall space taker displaced. Dollar for dollar my money is just as green as anyone else's. Maybe greener. But that's because I wash it with Tide. And we all know that Tide is the color saver.

[MntMan4Bush]

Hmmm guess I skipped over the first part of what you quoted. Apologies. In that instance I can't argue with that. I think that has to do with the individual and general lack of spacial awareness or care about anyone other than self. than an overall indictment on people with kids.

Another example. Changing a two year old in the boot room, or at least the bench by the old ticket counter. I walk in. The bench is full. No one changing. All are ready. Some have their helmets/gloves taking up seats. I squat into a lunge, throw my kid on my knee and continue to change them and boot him up in a very uncomfortable position as everyone sits on the bench and watches me with a strange look of "what's he doing?" I set him down and boot myself up. Again not even a consideration of offering a seat. Total time 4-5 minutes. Done before they even started to make a move out the door. Happened a ton this season. None of those people had kids. They just had no self awareness. I would submit those same people exist in a high top setting devoid of kids. Just to add fuel to the fire I'll suggest they were all quad packers. Damn quad packers........ Probably quad packing claybrookers all cutting me in line........

[HowieT2]

I wish I had the opportunity to have a beer after Im done skiing saturdays. Usually off taking the kids somewhere, picking up dinner or some other errands (btw-whats with all the hate for kids in the crp? if you have kids and want to have a drink, what are you supposed to do with them?). Anyway, the CRp is way too crowded for my old self. I do like going there when its not crowded especially in the summer when I can bike and have a burger outside. but I digress. Is Timbers also crowded for apres ski?

If im not mistaken, one of next phases of the rice brook development at the base, includes a hostel. Is there a bar planned for there too?

fwiw- my recollection is that when the GH and CRp were built, they were intending to follow them up with a large "skier services building" including another cafeteria and bar. That was later discarded in favor of the schoolhouse and farmhouse buildings, which of course dont include either, and hence the current predicament.

too much demand is a good problem for a business to have. better than the other way around.

speaking of bars, did anyone eat at the pine tree this season? curious how it was under new mgmt. do people go there for apres? that whole sb village is due for a makeover.

[ThinkSno]

(btw-whats with all the hate for kids in the crp? if you have kids and want to have a drink, what are you supposed to do with them?).

speaking of bars, did anyone eat at the pine tree this season?

There's no hate for the kids themselves, but the inconsiderate adults whose screaming little angels (or more frequently, their coats) take away much-coveted pub seats from paying customers. Just like how good snow takes the focus off the chairlift problems-- a bigger/better CRP layout would alleviate all the "too-crowded, can't get a drink" complaints. To address an earlier point of too few bartenders, I've seen Maggie working service bar on Saturdays, and Jenny helping out Shaun & Rich as well. Paul used to also be a 3rd tender, prior to moving on to the Pine Tree a few seasons back.

If parents want to have a drink, good for you, but please do the responsible thing-- drink at home out of a coffee mug so you don't influence your spawn to become bar rats at the age of 6 (thus taking up more bar stools, etc.).

Went to the PTP for dinner with 4 friends this season. Burgers were good, didn't venture much from those.

[MntMan4Bush]

If parents want to have a drink, good for you, but please do the responsible thing-- drink at home out of a coffee mug so you don't influence your spawn to become bar rats at the age of 6 (thus taking up more bar stools, etc.).



That's what I do for breakfast. I'll be damned if I'm forced to do it for lunch and dinner.......

I've also seen plenty of adult coats, helmets and gloves on chairs. How about we just say "everyone stop acting like a D Bag and have some consideration for those around you.". That should cover all bases regardless of age.

[Fourwide]

Nothing against kids, but they really don't belong in a bar, for a few reasons. I'd think the annex would work fine for families.

[angler]

BYO to the Mad Taco while eating a Fat Daddy is the way to go!

[MntMan4Bush]

I guess I'm going to have argue with you on this one, but I might be slightly subjective. I agree that kids shouldn't be sitting at Charlie O's in downtown Montpelier watching their dad pound a Bud Lite with a whiskey back. If that's your statement then I'm on board. However an Apres bar attached to the base of a mountain is a whole different ballgame. I'm also not talking about a "load up your kids in a car to drive to Slidebrook" to rifle down some brews kind of affair. I'm talking specifically about a place at the base of the hill where you kick off your boots, walk 50 feet and grab a beer before making the move home where you'll inevitably stay since you have a kid and won't be out with them late at night crowding that kind of bar scene.

Do you think because people have kids their needs change 100%? I mean maybe for some they do, but I haven't felt mine change a ton. I'm not asking someone at a bar to give up a seat because I have a kid. First come first serve. Won't even give them a funny glance like I might if someone is sitting on a bench doing nothing while I'm trying to boot them up. It's a bar. If you want a drink AND a chair get there early. Or late. When I walk in my kid doesn't sit for a while until the crowd thins and I can snag one. Until then I'm usually walking him around.

Do you think you're special and deserve a seat or a spot at a family mountain we all paid the same admission to get in (i.e. a ticket or pass) just because ypu're drinking beer. What about my wife who's pregnant and only drinking hot chocolate? Because she takes up a seat but is not spending a lot does she not deserve it because she got there first? If not by all means kick her out of. You deserve it. Tell her to get back in the kitchen anyways where she belongs. She probably got lost looking for the laundry room. :)

Again if we're talking a stand alone bar somewhere then I agree fully with you, but check your environment. I spend plenty at the bar in food and drinks. I have for some time and I'll continue to. If you want my seat then get there before me. If not and I'm not using it you can have it. That should be standard common courtesy whether you have a kid or not.

[Hawk]

You can BYO at the Mad taco? They have a license and I thought that was a no-no in VT.

[southvillager]

I guess I'm going to have argue with you on this one, but I might be slightly subjective. I agree that kids shouldn't be sitting at Charlie O's in downtown Montpelier watching their dad pound a Bud Lite with a whiskey back. If that's your statement then I'm on board. However an Apres bar attached to the base of a mountain is a whole different ballgame. I'm also not talking about a "load up your kids in a car to drive to Slidebrook" to rifle down some brews kind of affair. I'm talking specifically about a place at the base of the hill where you kick off your boots, walk 50 feet and grab a beer before making the move home where you'll inevitably stay since you have a kid and won't be out with them late at night crowding that kind of bar scene.

Do you think because people have kids their needs change 100%? I mean maybe for some they do, but I haven't felt mine change a ton. I'm not asking someone at a bar to give up a seat because I have a kid. First come first serve. Won't even give them a funny glance like I might if someone is sitting on a bench doing nothing while I'm trying to boot them up. It's a bar. If you want a drink AND a chair get there early. Or late. When I walk in my kid doesn't sit for a while until the crowd thins and I can snag one. Until then I'm usually walking him around.

Do you think you're special and deserve a seat or a spot at a family mountain we all paid the same admission to get in (i.e. a ticket or pass) just because ypu're drinking beer. What about my wife who's pregnant and only drinking hot chocolate? Because she takes up a seat but is not spending a lot does she not deserve it because she got there first? If not by all means kick her out of. You deserve it. Tell her to get back in the kitchen anyways where she belongs. She probably got lost looking for the laundry room. :)

Again if we're talking a stand alone bar somewhere then I agree fully with you, but check your environment. I spend plenty at the bar in food and drinks. I have for some time and I'll continue to. If you want my seat then get there before me. If not and I'm not using it you can have it. That should be standard common courtesy whether you have a kid or not.

I agree.

Kids, grandmothers knitting, non-skiing wives, etc in the base lodge bar are part of apres skiing. Or at least it always has been part of it. If not for the families, a base lodge bar would be 95% guys in their 20's...all gawking at the 4 women in the place. I bring my kids in to loads of places in the Valley that would be considered a bar. Otherwise, there would be no place to dine out. I don't bring my kids to the CRP for the same reason I don't go in there...slow service.

The problem isn't that there are too many "un-bar-worthy" people taking up space in the CRP. The problem is that there isn't enough space, or servers, in the pub.

[angler]

You can BYO at the Mad taco? They have a license and I thought that was a no-no in VT.

I was using BYO as Buy Your Own since you can actually walk in and buy a beer. A little off humor. Anyway I love the Fat Daddy!

[angler]

I agree.

Kids, grandmothers knitting, non-skiing wives, etc in the base lodge bar are part of apres skiing. Or at least it always has been part of it. If not for the families, a base lodge bar would be 95% guys in their 20's...all gawking at the 4 women in the place. I bring my kids in to loads of places in the Valley that would be considered a bar. Otherwise, there would be no place to dine out. I don't bring my kids to the CRP for the same reason I don't go in there...slow service.

The problem isn't that there are too many "un-bar-worthy" people taking up space in the CRP. The problem is that there isn't enough space, or servers, in the pub.

You are correct the problem is poor design. On another note I was at Stowe the other day changing in the old lodge. When I walked downstairs to hit the head I started to think how the lodge at SB would have more space if they had built a basement to the whole complex. I'm not in construction but I have heard that basement space is the cheapest space you can build. You could have put all the lockers, bathrooms, storage, ect down there while opening a lot of space for the stuff we have been talking about. Just a random thought!

[Fourwide]

Well, I suppose we just disagree on this. Our kids are now of drinking age. We wouldn't have ever considered bringing them into a bar before that. "Check your environment"---CRP is a bar, no matter how you hedge it, and bars are for adults (and adult behavior). In many states, minors aren't allowed in bars (or, at least, the bar area of a pub). No, I don't think I'm special (I'm old enough to have disabused myself of that notion long ago!), but I do believe that, if children are nearby, some adult conversation isn't appropriate. Bar and restaurant rules have become more relaxed in the past 30 or so years, so I know I'm fighting a losing battle and I'll just have to accept that. Finally, I didn't suggest at all that adults aren't welcome, regardless of their chosen beverage.

[angler]

From the time our kids were born we would go to any establishment and sit at the bar to eat and drink. We have done that since they were in car seats, still do it now and they seem to be ok. But heck thats coming from me so not sure how much validity you can ascribe to that.

[Go Figure]

I agree.

Kids, grandmothers knitting, non-skiing wives, etc in the base lodge bar are part of apres skiing. Or at least it always has been part of it. If not for the families, a base lodge bar would be 95% guys in their 20's...all gawking at the 4 women in the place. I bring my kids in to loads of places in the Valley that would be considered a bar. Otherwise, there would be no place to dine out. I don't bring my kids to the CRP for the same reason I don't go in there...slow service.

The problem isn't that there are too many "un-bar-worthy" people taking up space in the CRP. The problem is that there isn't enough space, or servers, in the pub.

The place is too small for granny knitters and others to table sit when folks are standing around looking for a place to sit. And for me it's the obnoxious kids that run back and forth non stop bumping into people right and left. It's the other reason [the 1st is the food flat out sucked] we stopped going to the PTP, kids slamming balls into the pool table and running everywhere chasing each other while the parents sat in another area.

The Taco also has better beer on top of the better service.

[Benski]

You are correct the problem is poor design. On another note I was at Stowe the other day changing in the old lodge. When I walked downstairs to hit the head I started to think how the lodge at SB would have more space if they had built a basement to the whole complex. I'm not in construction but I have heard that basement space is the cheapest space you can build. You could have put all the lockers, bathrooms, storage, ect down there while opening a lot of space for the stuff we have been talking about. Just a random thought!

The basement is the floor were the boot room and the pub it.


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[angler]

The basement is the floor were the boot room and the pub it.


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I consider the pub and boot room the first floor.

[MntMan4Bush]

The place is too small for granny knitters and others to table sit when folks are standing around looking for a place to sit. And for me it's the obnoxious kids that run back and forth non stop bumping into people right and left. It's the other reason [the 1st is the food flat out sucked] we stopped going to the PTP, kids slamming balls into the pool table and running everywhere chasing each other while the parents sat in another area.


Really? The 35 pound 3 foot kid that probably doesn't even touch you running by annoys you more than the 200 pound guy sweating buckets with ski boots still on stumbling by and pushing into you and spilling beer on you as they inch along the narrow corridor that is the CRP? Pre-kid wasn't too long ago for me so I have a pretty good memory of not caring if there were kids or not. Or in fact not caring about what anyone did with their time. Be it a granny knitting at a table or a kid eating some mac and cheese. It falls under a broad category called none of my business. Live and let live. If other people going about their business is that disturbing to you then I'm sorry. If I want a seat then I should show up earlier. No reason I'm more entitled to a seat than anyone else. Of course if I see you coming I'll get up for you. I mean why shouldn't I? You're clearly there to do something entirely different than me.

Pool table and you're talking about PTP, which was not what the topic was on. I fully agree kids at the pool table when adults want to play is annoying. No argument and mine stays off, but again the CRP is what we were talking about here. Clearly you weren't because you also spoke about the bad food and if you've been to the CRP lately then you haven't had the truffle fries.

Fourwide - I get what you're saying. i just disagree on a ski bar being different. As for having to curb your behavior around kids not around mine. Please no. I brought him in there knowing where I was going. A bar type area should expect a certain behavior and language. If I don't like it, for my kid or myself, I can leave. I don't expect anyone to cater to me. Similarly if I'm there and someone doesn't like me being there they are more than welcome to leave too. Or we can both stay and not get bothered by silly things that don't actually effect you and are only perceived notions in your head that you put there. I get that when there's a kid around you might be self conscious. I guess though if one F bomb was held back as a result is the world worse off as a result or a day ruined? I doubt it. Never bothered me. If an F Bomb is called for then by all means drop it. Hell bumpcrasher has the honor of having the first swear repeated by my kid and it was pretty funny. Kid are parrots. What can you do?

[Chewbarka]

Whatever happened to the portable beer cart they used to bring up at the end of the day? Located over near the Sleeper Room, by the water cooler, was a great idea. No waiting in lines at CRP, No loud environment where you can't hear each other talk about the days exploits, Plenty of seating. Just perfect. Right when you needed it!

[Go Figure]

Really? The 35 pound 3 foot kid that probably doesn't even touch you running by annoys you more than the 200 pound guy sweating buckets with ski boots still on stumbling by and pushing into you and spilling beer on you as they inch along the narrow corridor that is the CRP? Pre-kid wasn't too long ago for me so I have a pretty good memory of not caring if there were kids or not. Or in fact not caring about what anyone did with their time. Be it a granny knitting at a table or a kid eating some mac and cheese. It falls under a broad category called none of my business. Live and let live. If other people going about their business is that disturbing to you then I'm sorry. If I want a seat then I should show up earlier. No reason I'm more entitled to a seat than anyone else. Of course if I see you coming I'll get up for you. I mean why shouldn't I? You're clearly there to do something entirely different than me.

Pool table and you're talking about PTP, which was not what the topic was on. I fully agree kids at the pool table when adults want to play is annoying. No argument and mine stays off, but again the CRP is what we were talking about here. Clearly you weren't because you also spoke about the bad food and if you've been to the CRP lately then you haven't had the truffle fries.



I was not the first to mention the PTP and we have been extremely disappointed in the lodge food. Two years ago it was the Irish Natchos" that were somehow served both burnt and cold. And last years $8 regular natchos that were at least warm but was also the smallest plate I have seen in 55 years and not very tasty.

Here we have someone who whined for 3 months because his kid couldn't get a free plastic pass and a few posts back complaining someone wouldn't give up their seat in the boot room for him and his squirt. Now he calls me out because I complain about seat hoggers and kids [worst offenders appox 11-14 yo]and that I am not entitled to a seat and should arrive earlier.
I guess everyone has their things they feel entitled to.

[MntMan4Bush]

The Irish Nachos were the crowning achievement of worst apres food ever. I saw them grab a single serving bag of Lays off the rack, open and work their magic on it. I never understood how they could mess up nachos. Food now is better in my opinion. You should try it. Josh has cooked up some pretty good food recently.

For 3 months huh? Must have been non-stop and 12 posts a day too. Don't stop there. Why not make it 6 months as long as we're at it. It's a crappy policy. I stand by that. I don't feel entitled to anything. To justify needing $30 later on for a cheap piece of plastic when someone pays as much as they do for a ticket feels off. When I pay that much for something it's not really entitlement to expect something from the product. They say kids are free. So you say OK. Cool. Here's my money. Then they say "well the tickets themselves are an upcharge". Oh. In my opinion it sucks. If my expectation was that the pass woudl include a free helmet then I'd say I'm being unreasonable. I dropped this a while back and just bought one. You brought it back up. Clearly you care about it more than I.

Feeling your needs are different than anothers. that you're buying something different, that you're older/younger/not knitting than someone else, that you skied and someone else didn't and that somehow you deserve the space or a seat is entitlement, especially if someone beats you to it. So what? When it's not busy earlier on should that space not be used at all and they not spend any money at the CRP? Would you allow them to be so bold as to get a hot chocolate when it's quiet? Should they reserve it for you? Would you like your name on it? Or should they just leave when they see you come in? Maybe they should bow their heads and slowly walk out backwards? Would you like them to genuflect? Please. Just like any bar. If it's a crowded bar and you want a seat or a space get there early. Else deal with it like everyone else. Your user experience is no more important than anyone else's.

My boot room experience? I didn't feel entitled to a seat. I dealt with it and moved on. Didn't say a word to them. It was their seat. They beat me to it. Just thought it strange since if it was me, and it has been me several times, I would have (and have) given up my seat as opposed to watch like it was a side show. Kind of like when you give up a seat to an elderly person on the subway. Are they entitled to it? No. But when you see someone not give up a seat and you're standing b y watching you kind of give them a strange look.

[ThinkSno]

My boot room experience? I didn't feel entitled to a seat. I dealt with it and moved on. Didn't say a word to them. It was their seat. They beat me to it. Just thought it strange since if it was me, and it has been me several times, I would have (and have) given up my seat as opposed to watch like it was a side show. Kind of like when you give up a seat to an elderly person on the subway. Are they entitled to it? No. But when you see someone not give up a seat and you're standing b y watching you kind of give them a strange look.

Just a thought here, but this works for me 99.99% of the time: "Excuse me, mind if I squeeze in so I could boot up? Thanks!"

The other 0.01% of the time I simply go someplace else to boot up, as we all know the boot room in the basement of the CRP is undersized, but that discussion happened years ago.

[MntMan4Bush]

Absolutely I could have, though to be honest if they are using the seat no reason to displace them just for me. I could have went upstairs or found another spot. It's on me really.

It may not be evident in my posting but I kind of find it amusing. Hence the "strange" look as opposed to an "angry" look. It's almost like a social experiment. I always start cracking up as I walk out after. It's comical to watch I'm sure. I mean here I have a kid squirming on my knee. At 2 years old he's trying his best to be "helpful" which means bending at odd positions, getting hands in the way and insisting on clicking the buckles himself. I'm 6'3" so in a lunge position I take up a fair amount of space and I'm hard to miss and to see 5 or 6 people crammed on the bench all booted up and ready with nothing to do just watching me is kind of funny. I mean now that I've brought it up I'd encourage people to go do it on purpose just to see. Comical really, but I've gotten pretty efficient at it so maybe not so much as it used to be.

[Fourwide]

It's not that big a deal. Perhaps I'm a bit stiff (likely evident in my skiing!)? The main sitting area (near the bar) would be more accessible and comfortable if the larger tables were replaced by smaller, taller tables and families were directed to sit in the annex.

[southvillager]

Whatever happened to the portable beer cart they used to bring up at the end of the day? Located over near the Sleeper Room, by the water cooler, was a great idea. No waiting in lines at CRP, No loud environment where you can't hear each other talk about the days exploits, Plenty of seating. Just perfect. Right when you needed it!

That did work well. The disappearance is a mystery. I think I spotted cans of beer and little wine bottles in the cooler in the main cafeteria. So I think you can still get a beer upstairs.

If I were in charge, I'd deploy that portable beer cart in the old Wunderbar, the lower level of the Valley House. Nice big space, nice 1980's mural, bathroom close by. it would be ideal for busy Saturdays. Maybe roll it out to the patio near the VH Double for spring skiing and pond skimming. Maybe that is too complicated.

[HowieT2]

It's not that big a deal. Perhaps I'm a bit stiff (likely evident in my skiing!)? The main sitting area (near the bar) would be more accessible and comfortable if the larger tables were replaced by smaller, taller tables and families were directed to sit in the annex.

Those big tables all have fold up extensions that make them round. all they would have to do to make them smaller is fold down the extensions.

[HowieT2]

That did work well. The disappearance is a mystery. I think I spotted cans of beer and little wine bottles in the cooler in the main cafeteria. So I think you can still get a beer upstairs.

If I were in charge, I'd deploy that portable beer cart in the old Wunderbar, the lower level of the Valley House. Nice big space, nice 1980's mural, bathroom close by. it would be ideal for busy Saturdays. Maybe roll it out to the patio near the VH Double for spring skiing and pond skimming. Maybe that is too complicated.

They do sell beer in the cafeteria, obviously not on tap, but bottles.

[HowieT2]

I was not the first to mention the PTP and we have been extremely disappointed in the lodge food. Two years ago it was the Irish Natchos" that were somehow served both burnt and cold. And last years $8 regular natchos that were at least warm but was also the smallest plate I have seen in 55 years and not very tasty.

Here we have someone who whined for 3 months because his kid couldn't get a free plastic pass and a few posts back complaining someone wouldn't give up their seat in the boot room for him and his squirt. Now he calls me out because I complain about seat hoggers and kids [worst offenders appox 11-14 yo]and that I am not entitled to a seat and should arrive earlier.
I guess everyone has their things they feel entitled to.

I think the lodge food is pretty good. Not cheap obviously but certainly better than average. We've had many guests who have all been pleased with the food. I never tried the irish nachos (sounded like a bad concept) but the wings, chili, burgers and salads are good.

[Hawk]

I was using BYO as Buy Your Own since you can actually walk in and buy a beer. A little off humor. Anyway I love the Fat Daddy!

Sorry, I obviously thought you meant "Bring you own" as in BYOB. I agree about the fat daddy. Actually I love all their stuff and switch it up frequently. Fish tacos have been my favorite of late. Also the Carnitas filling is kick A$$ and the beer selection for a small place is top notch. YUMMMMM!!!! Now I need to go to lunch. See what you did. :-)

[Hawk]

I think the lodge food is pretty good. Not cheap obviously but certainly better than average. We've had many guests who have all been pleased with the food. I never tried the irish nachos (sounded like a bad concept) but the wings, chili, burgers and salads are good.

I agree with Howie, I like most of the food. The pizza, chowder, chili and soups are good. Also the Jerk chicken wings at the CR Pub are an apre staple. That seasoning is real good. I usually do not do any of the fried food or Burgers but they appear to be OK. When I was Sunday River a couple of weeks ago the food there was way below what we have at SB. Smaller and the items I had were cold and flat tasting.

[HowieT2]

Sorry, I obviously thought you meant "Bring you own" as in BYOB. I agree about the fat daddy. Actually I love all their stuff and switch it up frequently. Fish tacos have been my favorite of late. Also the Carnitas filling is kick A$$ and the beer selection for a small place is top notch. YUMMMMM!!!! Now I need to go to lunch. See what you did. :-)
yeah the mad taco is awesome all around.

[angler]

Sorry, I obviously thought you meant "Bring you own" as in BYOB. I agree about the fat daddy. Actually I love all their stuff and switch it up frequently. Fish tacos have been my favorite of late. Also the Carnitas filling is kick A$$ and the beer selection for a small place is top notch. YUMMMMM!!!! Now I need to go to lunch. See what you did. :-)

Understood, I can see how you with have thought that. I agree with the carnitas filling. I actually had that last week and have been craving more as soon as I was 5 minutes down the road 8)

[southvillager]

Monday, April 21st - 10:00 AM

**Super Bravo is on maintenance delay**

[Xskier]

I say let the knitters, kids, non drinkers all hang out in the crowded, dark and depressing CRP as that will leave the Wunderbar and Timbers with more room.