No snowmaking really?

[angler]

Can someone please explain what the deal is with not being able to make snow because of power demands? Maybe they should take the gerbils off Heavens Gate lift and put them to work on the windmill so we can have power to make snow.

[sbskier]

Can someone please explain what the deal is with not being able to make snow because of power demands? Maybe they should take the gerbils off Heavens Gate lift and put them to work on the windmill so we can have power to make snow.

yes welcome to sugarbush there's 3 ft of ice on all there snow making trails there done for the season

[shadyjay]

Believe me, if we could be making snow, we'd be doing it. From my understanding, these cold temps recently have put a demand on the power grid. Kind of like what happens on really hot days during the summer.

We are still on call for snowmaking.... we're not done just yet.

[Hawk]

I heard that power thing also. I have really never heard of this at any other ski area. Gonna have to do some digging on this one. I want have my facts straight on this one before I comment. At first glance it sounds like the infrastructure here in the valley is antiquated and needs to be upgraded. If that is the issue then there is not much we can do about that. All the more reason to upgrade the snowmaking system so we can blow more while we have power! :-)

[jwt]

I heard that power thing also. I have really never heard of this at any other ski area. Gonna have to do some digging on this one. I want have my facts straight on this one before I comment. At first glance it sounds like the infrastructure here in the valley is antiquated and needs to be upgraded. If that is the issue then there is not much we can do about that. All the more reason to upgrade the snowmaking system so we can blow more while we have power! :-)

Just before Christmas, while waiting for HG to be fixed, we spent some time with Win, who was skiing and is seemingly always available to talk with SV customers, he said the new guns purchased use 85% less energy ( the new quiet ones) so unless they are fixed on place, I don't understand. If memory serves, he said it was lack of water resources - which makes some sense due to the dry Jan - he said they didn't even use all of the generation they have because these babies are so efficient.

Gotta be cash flow and budgetary limits - every business has 'em. When they are stuck to, they tend to keep the business in business even if they don't deliver for the customer on every level.

[gostan]

Typically, unless a large commercial electric user, pre-purchases electricity up front in bulk at a set rate, rates will escalate on an increased KW usage scale as more electricity is utilized.

Also, there may be additional surcharges due to all of the cold weather. I have seen all kinds of complaints on Sugarloaf Today regarding less snow making. And, the posts there seem to chalk it up to higher electricity payments. And, my recollection is that the Green Mountain Power system has endured reduced supply delivery issues in the past. Not really sure about the efficiency of they GMP electric delivery system in Vermont, and, in particular, in MRV or if this has any effect on snowmaking.

I suspect that there are many other influences here in play relating to snow making, between all of the up and down weather patterns, the cold, the ice , etc. We have had numerous equipment issues down here in Massachusetts due to the extreme cold with our Railroad engines/equipment. construction/snowplowing equipment, etc. We service all of our equipment, but everything is still breaking down in this extreme cold Polar Vortex.

[angler]

I was told that they do not have enough air to make the quality of snow or amount compared to their direct competitors. Not sure if this is true or not but people close to the organization have said that before Win took over American Ski use to rent a couple air compressors to subsidize for the lack of air and they do not do that now (as they do not want to spend the money) so they are short on air which effects the quality of snow they make plus the amount? The lack of investment into the mountain when it comes to a pure riding and skiing experience is disappointing at best!

[slatham]

This past summer Bromley bought a generator and one of the reasons given was to be able to continue making snow when GMP curtailed electric usage. Though not an expert, from my conversations over the years, GMP curtails snowmaking power usage during extreme cold periods like this week to assure that people have power to heat their homes. Have to admit they have their priorities right, though why they haven't rectified the underlying issue is a valid question. So too is the question of why Sugarbush doesn't have a contingency plan like a generator.

[angler]

So too is the question of why Sugarbush doesn't have a contingency plan like a generator.
You can ask that question about a lot of things Sugarbush does when it comes to the on mountain experience!

[vonski]

This happens once or twice each year. on the snow report it said no snowmaking due to GMP not allowing them to pull the power they need off the grid. this is nothing new. it is only an issue this year again cause Ma nature has been a bitch with the freeze and thaw cycles. ASC used to rent generators early on and the capacity issues have existed since Win has chosen not to rent the generators each year. An a windmill won't help like some seem to think. Sugarbush relies alot on Ma Nature for the trails and this year she has not been to friendly. Either to hot or now too cold. Just my 2 cents.

[angler]

This happens once or twice each year. on the snow report it said no snowmaking due to GMP not allowing them to pull the power they need off the grid. this is nothing new. it is only an issue this year again cause Ma nature has been a bitch with the freeze and thaw cycles. ASC used to rent generators early on and the capacity issues have existed since Win has chosen not to rent the generators each year. An a windmill won't help like some seem to think. Sugarbush relies alot on Ma Nature for the trails and this year she has not been to friendly. Either to hot or now too cold. Just my 2 cents.

The Windmill is a metaphor for the issue at hand. Like you said Sugarbush relies way to much on mother nature. With the past few years being example of that. In these times a mountain on the east coast needs to be able to create the snow experience for the end users. That means you need to be able to make quality snow in abundance. Without that you are a mom and pop mountain (in this case that charges high rent prices for lift tickets) that provides an average rider experience. Maybe its time for the ownership to rent compressors again, invest in quality snowmaking upgrade the gerbils that power the antiquated lift systems and get your own generator if needed so the experience for the rider is in concert for the prices they charge. Just a thought.......

[HowieT2]

I was told that they do not have enough air to make the quality of snow or amount compared to their direct competitors. Not sure if this is true or not but people close to the organization have said that before Win took over American Ski use to rent a couple air compressors to subsidize for the lack of air and they do not do that now (as they do not want to spend the money) so they are short on air which effects the quality of snow they make plus the amount? The lack of investment into the mountain when it comes to a pure riding and skiing experience is disappointing at best!

This is not correct. See prior snowmaking discussions.

[ducky]

http://burlington.craigslist.org/hvo/4253940056.html

[angler]

So if thats not the case where is the snowmaking?

[angler]

http://burlington.craigslist.org/hvo/4253940056.html

Send it to Win

[Benski]

I think with all the low E guns the often max out on water and i don't think they shut off snow making because of power more than a couple days on average a year.

[flakeydog]

It is an agreement with the power company. When electricity is in high demand and the grid is under stress, the powers that be say electricity to power homes, hospitals etc is more important than blasting snow in sub-zero temps. Priorities i guess, but nothing new about this practice. Prevents GMP from havong to go buy extra power at premium rates or worst case, a shortage (ie blackout).

[Ride Delaware ?]

My understanding is that GMP doesn't allow bulk purchase of power. They have it at the going rate. The power company still has to supply power if the company wants to use it. However, the company is informed that during X hours they will be increasing the price of electric from X kWh to 2X kWh. If the company wishes to pay that amount, they can continue to operate. Whether that is due to infrastructure inadequacies or because the company wants to make more $, who knows.

As for Sugarloaf, they do buy their power in bulk. In fact, my understanding is that Sunday River and Sugarloaf buy their electric together. The two mountains share a part time energy efficiency employee that specifically concentrates on snowmaking efficiency and when best to use or sell their energy. Those two mountains make snow at the cheap rate and often sell their energy back to the electric company at much higher demand times. They make a good chunk of change off of this practice.

[skidmarks]

Skied North today, conditions were poor to say the least.
Killington must get their power from a different source because when I was there on Wednesday they had a big snow-making push on.
The skiing at Killington was great, what a stark contrast from Sugarbush.
The 80's called and wants it's snowmaking back....

[gostan]

My understanding is that GMP doesn't allow bulk purchase of power. They have it at the going rate. The power company still has to supply power if the company wants to use it. However, the company is informed that during X hours they will be increasing the price of electric from X kWh to 2X kWh. If the company wishes to pay that amount, they can continue to operate. Whether that is due to infrastructure inadequacies or because the company wants to make more $, who knows.

As for Sugarloaf, they do buy their power in bulk. In fact, my understanding is that Sunday River and Sugarloaf buy their electric together. The two mountains share a part time energy efficiency employee that specifically concentrates on snowmaking efficiency and when best to use or sell their energy. Those two mountains make snow at the cheap rate and often sell their energy back to the electric company at much higher demand times. They make a good chunk of change off of this practice.This may or may not be correct, but snowmaking complaints at Sugarloaf from their core skiers are real, just as they are at Sugarbush and other areas
http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6365&start=15

The Sugarloaf skiers feel,like second class citizens to Sunday River. My guess is that without an abundance of natural snow, that all skiers at all mountains will complain about snowmaking, and that even includes mountains that have far superior snow making facilities/systems than sugarbush.

[Ride Delaware ?]

This may or may not be correct, but snowmaking complaints at Sugarloaf from their core skiers are real, just as they are at Sugarbush and other areas
http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6365&start=15

The Sugarloaf skiers feel,like second class citizens to Sunday River. My guess is that without an abundance of natural snow, that all skiers at all mountains will complain about snowmaking, and that even includes mountains that have far superior snow making facilities/systems than sugarbush.
For better or worse, Sugarloaf has always been treated like a second class citizen to SR. SR and Loon are Boyne's Northeast cash cows. If the rumors are true, one of the reasons SR was one of the last ASC resorts to sell, other than it being Otten's pride a joy, was that they were requiring SR be sold with SL because the SL financials and skier visits would have made it tough to sell as a solo resort. If you have ever been to SL, you know it's in the middle of nowhere and really isn't very accessible to any major population centers. The complaints are probably true, but it's tough to justify sinking money into the place when SR makes the big bucks.

[Hawk]

This is not correct. See prior snowmaking discussions.

Well I guess you cant blame people for not going back and seeing our past 20 or so discussions on snowmaking.
Sorry Howie this is correct. They do have air issues for the size and scale of the operation they have here. The pipes are old and leaky and the compressor plant is in need of upgrade. I mean you only have to look at the water and frozen mud that they sometimes blow out of the guns to understand that it is an air issue. Those new guns do use less air but if they have no air they still blow water. It's the air that makes the water droplets small enough to freeze. They have plenty of water.

Stan hits it on the button. Sugarbush buys bulk power early at a discount. When it is used up they have to pay the going rate. When demand goes up during peak times like when it is hot or very cold the rates go up. Basic Supply and demand. So they would have to pay much more to blow snow during this cold snap. This seems to be a financial thing. Not a water thing, not the power company saying they do not have enough power. That is my 2 cents from talking to people around the area.

I remember someone saying a while back that when mother nature turns her back on us, the need for snowmaking will become key. What DR is saying about SL is 100% true and shows another example of a faithful set of devoted skiers voicing displeasure when something could be done. It's another example of what is most important when running a ski operation. The product you ski on.

[gostan]

Whether or not there is an upfront bulk discount purchase or not, remember that electricity charges are based upon the cost of the electricity and the Demand charges. And it is the Demand charges that can blow the electricity charges up dramatically.


http://www.greenmountainpower.com/customers/commercial/understanding-charges/


http://www.greenmountainpower.com/upload/photos/3082012DecemberRatesAndServicesGMPLegacy.pdf

I am sure if I were able to be up skiing (I might finally get released for some easy skiing the weekend of February 7th) that I would want snowmaking to be in play, but if there is a frozen ice base on the snowmaking trails,along with extremely windy conditions, isn't it likely that the snow made from the snow making system would just get blown into the woods on the sides of the trails. Maybe this along with higher costs and possible issues with the equipment due to the cold, is why it makes business sense for management to delay additional snow making for now.

And we know that there is always a big push for additional snow making prior to February school vacation week, and then the switch is usually turned off.

[arc1]

This is not correct. See prior snowmaking discussions.

What? When ASC operated the place they had a farm of rented generators in the maintenance lot at the bottom of Bravo. Its fact, and they made a whole lot more snow then. The good news is that we have a mightier snow making punch than at least one hill, Mad River.

[angler]

What? When ASC operated the place they had a farm of rented generators in the maintenance lot at the bottom of Bravo. Its fact, and they made a whole lot more snow then. The good news is that we have a mightier snow making punch than at least one hill, Mad River.

Anyone who has endured both sets of owners knows that is true. The snow making on this mountain for who they think they are is a joke. Not only the lack of snow making but the quality as well. Lets not even get into the lift situation. Who thinks its a good idea to take a part from north ridge chair right before xmas to try and fix heavens gate so the people on north can't ride the best lift on that side really? That is bush league at best. This mountain needs ownership that cares about the end product and is willing to put the type of money it takes to run a first class mountain. If you don't want to do that , stop selling 60,000 quad passes take the pressure of the mountain and charge smugg prices. Very disappointing situation going on at this mountain.

[Benski]

Anyone who has endured both sets of owners knows that is true. The snow making on this mountain for who they think they are is a joke. Not only the lack of snow making but the quality as well. Lets not even get into the lift situation. Who thinks its a good idea to take a part from north ridge chair right before xmas to try and fix heavens gate so the people on north can't ride the best lift on that side really? That is bush league at best. This mountain needs ownership that cares about the end product and is willing to put the type of money it takes to run a first class mountain. If you don't want to do that , stop selling 60,000 quad passes take the pressure of the mountain and charge smugg prices. Very disappointing situation going on at this mountain.
They were in the unfortunate situation of having to get a part on xmass eve which does not leave mane options.

[angler]

Understood, but they continued to charge full price at North. Not very fair to those paying guests if you ask me. I also understand that they knew there might be a problem with Heavens Gate in Aug but thought they might be able to get one more year out of it. Either way its hard to dispute how far down this mountain has gone in the past years.

[southvillager]

Minor clarification. I think ASC was renting big 1300CFM diesel air compressors. These machines are bigger than a full size van, and have large Cat diesel engines. I used to be in the compressor rental business in the '80s, and most of the mountains would rent a fleet of these for 3-4 months. Then they switch over to in house electric compressors to maintain for the rest of the season. I'm not sure if this is still standard practice, but I personally did business with Wildcat, King Pine, Crotched, Whaleback, Waterville...most all of them rented from us or the competition. My co-worker had Killington, Okemo, Stowe, maybe others. We had a full time mechanic rotating from resort to resort for the winter to maintain them. I know some resorts bought stationary diesel compressors to deal with the insecurity of renting. The main benefit is that diesel gets you off the grid.

http://www.sullair.com/americas/en/portable-air-power/portable-compressors/1300-1600-cfm

I do find it frustrating that the little local 200' hill near me in Mass has far superior snow making and grooming (and therefore conditions) than Sugarbush.

[shadyjay]

Alright, folks.... I understand the weather lately and that we have nothing else better to talk about than snowmaking, but a few comments:

* The cold temps we've had this year, we've been able to push out a lot more snow than ever before. And with the new tower guns and other low e guns, we've maxed on water before air on several occasions.
* All of our snowmaking trails are currently OPEN. That represents, some 60-70% of terrain.
* If you were to add snowmaking on the mountain, where would it be? Castlerock? Paradise? Lower FIS? Village Run?
* Quality of snowmaking? This I have to totally disagree. I've had numerous compliments this season from not just fellow employees but from guests that the snowmaking has been great. When temps have been cold
as they have, the snow we've made has been incredibly dry. Almost too dry. Some areas we need wetter snow in order to stick to the trails. When its -15, you really can't make wet snow.
* Sure, there's a hard base out there. Not going to disagree. We had some challenging weather to deal with this year. How we went from the polar vortex one day, to 45 deg and rain the next, then back in the
vortex the day after is beyond me.
* Air is not the issue when it's this cold. Sure, more air capacity would help early season but the low e guns on OG enable us to run that trail, plus another.
* Not sure about the lift situation. I do know for a fact it was frustrating early season when HG was down and we had to hike up Jester in order to make snow on it. Sure, Jester's not that steep, until you have to hike
up it.
* Its not like we've had a substantial warmup in the past week or so where we absolutely need to make snow during the bitter cold periods right now. Since our plan is to make snow on spring trails, we can wait until
the "price is right". Again, all of our snowmaking trails ARE open, plus some natural trails too.
* We are back at it tonight making snow.
* February is only a week away, and with it will come storms, that will hopefully put all these issues to rest.

Also keep in mind, how many trails would we have open right now if not for us snowmakers? My guess would be a number substantially lower than 75.

[Hawk]

Jay, no one is saying that you guys don't work hard and do your job as you are directed. Snowmaking is hard work and I am sure you take pride int it. But with all due respect, you work for the mountain and you have only made snow at Sugarbush. Your perspecive is very narrow. Lots of people like me have both worked elsewhere and have seen really good operations. I have witnessed and experienced snowmaking at many resorts and what Sugarbush does for quantity and quality doesn't even come close. What people are mad about is that Sugarbush doesn't cirlcle back and hit trails again and agian as needed. Basically they can't because it cost to much. Much of the cost problem is the system it self. I am not going to comment any further but I am sure that many will disagree with many of your points. Sorry.


Alright, folks.... I understand the weather lately and that we have nothing else better to talk about than snowmaking, but a few comments:

* The cold temps we've had this year, we've been able to push out a lot more snow than ever before. And with the new tower guns and other low e guns, we've maxed on water before air on several occasions.
* All of our snowmaking trails are currently OPEN. That represents, some 60-70% of terrain.
* If you were to add snowmaking on the mountain, where would it be? Castlerock? Paradise? Lower FIS? Village Run?
* Quality of snowmaking? This I have to totally disagree. I've had numerous compliments this season from not just fellow employees but from guests that the snowmaking has been great. When temps have been cold
as they have, the snow we've made has been incredibly dry. Almost too dry. Some areas we need wetter snow in order to stick to the trails. When its -15, you really can't make wet snow.
* Sure, there's a hard base out there. Not going to disagree. We had some challenging weather to deal with this year. How we went from the polar vortex one day, to 45 deg and rain the next, then back in the
vortex the day after is beyond me.
* Air is not the issue when it's this cold. Sure, more air capacity would help early season but the low e guns on OG enable us to run that trail, plus another.
* Not sure about the lift situation. I do know for a fact it was frustrating early season when HG was down and we had to hike up Jester in order to make snow on it. Sure, Jester's not that steep, until you have to hike
up it.
* Its not like we've had a substantial warmup in the past week or so where we absolutely need to make snow during the bitter cold periods right now. Since our plan is to make snow on spring trails, we can wait until
the "price is right". Again, all of our snowmaking trails ARE open, plus some natural trails too.
* We are back at it tonight making snow.
* February is only a week away, and with it will come storms, that will hopefully put all these issues to rest.

Also keep in mind, how many trails would we have open right now if not for us snowmakers? My guess would be a number substantially lower than 75.

[angler]

Jay, no one is saying that you guys don't work hard and do your job as you are directed. Snowmaking is hard work and I am sure you take pride int it. But with all due respect, you work for the mountain and you have only made snow at Sugarbush. Your perspecive is very narrow. Lots of people like me have both worked elsewhere and have seen really good operations. I have witnessed and experienced snowmaking at many resorts and what Sugarbush does for quantity and quality doesn't even come close. What people are mad about is that Sugarbush doesn't cirlcle back and hit trails again and agian as needed. Basically they can't because it cost to much. Much of the cost problem is the system it self. I am not going to comment any further but I am sure that many will disagree with many of your points. Sorry.
Besides the fact that snow makers work hard I would dispute every point Jay made. All he needs to do is travel 35 miles or so and check out the snowing making at Stowe. It's night and day compared to the ice made here. It's sad but true this mountain has and still is going downhill.

[ahm]

If the comparison is continued to another power snowmaking hill, then SR is also night and day from SB. They continue to rework trails, pound the snowmaking and work on keeping the on hill product consistent regardless of what the weather does. It is simply a resource and horsepower issue. SR/Stowe/K have invested in the snowmaking to handle lean seasons and temp/weather fluctuation. In these types of weather situations, those places will always ski well.

[WWF-VT]

If the comparison is continued to another power snowmaking hill, then SR is also night and day from SB. They continue to rework trails, pound the snowmaking and work on keeping the on hill product consistent regardless of what the weather does. It is simply a resource and horsepower issue. SR/Stowe/K have invested in the snowmaking to handle lean seasons and temp/weather fluctuation. In these types of weather situations, those places will always ski well.

And Sunday River skiers are complaining abou snowmaking this year....

http://community.sundayriver.com/forum/topics/since-energy-is-such-a-big-cost-at-sr-what-are-this-issues

[ahm]

Maybe "internet" based skiers are complaining, but the reality is the snowmaking is just fine at SR. Coverage is solid, grooming is at the usual SR "groom it all daily" approach. I have skied it probably 15 - 20 days so far this season and snowmaking seems about normal. When there are repeated rainers followed by below zero temps, snow will be rock hard and you'll need some edges. River coverage is what I would expect it to be.

[gostan]

http://mountsnow.com/kellys-blog-while-you-were-sleeping/

Interesting info on electricity from Mt. Snow blog.

[angler]

http://mountsnow.com/kellys-blog-while-you-were-sleeping/

Interesting info on electricity from Mt. Snow blog.

Good read, nice to see them being creative as well as being committed to making snow. Good for them!

[Hawk]

They are showing a snowflake on Coffee Run on the report. ;-)

[Orca]

The snowmaking at Sugarbush is lackluster when compared to that of its peers. The snowmaking is inferior in both quantity and quality to comparable areas. The effect of this on the skier is individually interpreted: snowmaking may or may not be important to you. Your evaluation of a ski area may put more value on natural snow or alternatively you may hold snowmaking important for the consistency of season. Maybe you are somewhere in the middle. Regardless, I think anyone arguing that SB has great or even good snowmaking has a hard case to make.

[MntMan4Bush]

Sorry Jay. You guys work hard for sure. Not on you guys. However the decisions higher up on when to make snow, how much and repairs to the infrastructure impact the quality of the snow made. Given the exact or similar conditions Stowe and K-Ton do it more often and, I'm sorry to say, much better. It's not even close. If they made the same snow we made then no one would be able to complain or blame the mountain. When compliments are made it is in comparison to years past here and meant to help morale. Honestly no one should be complaining to the snowmakers, concierge or lifties. You guys deserve the praise. It's cold out there and a lot of work to keep all of us on the mountain. It is honestly appreciated by all. Leadership should take responsibility for shortcomings.

On a positive note I guess I'm going to break down and buy my kid's pass for the $30. I can't really deny him that. Not even 2 years old yet, was skiing last weekend in the negatives (coldest he's done is -4) and has 9 days in already. Gotta buy that kid a lamented pass as a memento even though I think it's money grubbing (Guess two season passes purchased couldn't cover the plastic expenses. Plastics are trading high on the Nikkei right now. I feel ya SB). Maybe that $30 can go towards the power because we know with the massive crowds lately SB can't afford it. Surely setting a new record in skier visits (again) can't possibly have a positive effect on income. However my guess it goes to some nice crown molding at Ricebrook.

Sorry that's 4 fingers of Lagavulin talking. My bad.

[gostan]

Surely setting a new record in skier visits (again) can't possibly have a positive effect on income. However my guess it goes to some nice crown molding at Ricebrook.

Sorry that's 4 fingers of Lagavulin talking. My bad.I will not comment on the Lagavulin, but the one thing that I will guaranty you is that the books on mountain operations and the Rice Brook construction project are 100% independent with two completely independent legal entities.

[pinnoke]

It didn't take Google long to help me understand there's apparently more to drinking than Heady Topper and Lawson's Finest. Unlike discussions on these threads, most seem to be in agreement, here: http://www.amazon.com/Lagavulin-Scotch-Single-Malt-750ML/product-reviews/B002TAEGHC Funny "Most Helpful Favorable Review" ("It'll turn you Scottish"). I wonder what it might do for my skiing prowess?

[MntMan4Bush]

Well it was said in jest partially. I assume they keep separate operating books, but the profits flow up towards the same source.

Also taken out of context a bot. I was referring to my $30 for my kid's pass going to crown molding (though your comment on separate books is still relevant). It was just ball busting on the ridiculous practice. Not that increase skier visits pays for Ricebrook directly. Perhaps I should have went with the fact that last Saturday was pretty terrible and since they were giving out vouchers I should have my kid request one. It just didn't seem as funny though. I mean he's only 2. He doesn't even know what a voucher is.

It's just frustrating to see the mountain generating all of this revenue as a whole; increased visits, luxury condos installed, gouging children for laminated pictures (zing!), all of which reduce the experience we have. More user visits might be good for profits, but means longer lines for the rest of us (Not looking for people to brag here that you "need to know where to go." I know. I know. I've been to SB once or twice before) and then get comments like power is too expensive when the snow conditions are terrible and no snow is being made. Or to see so many lifts go down as of recently. (For North Ridge the word "recently" stretches back some years).

[Go Figure]

I love it, someone driving 3 hours to a second home drinking $70 a bottle scotch feeling "entitled" to free plastic for a free pass. Look around on your drive to and from the mountain and you'll likely see many folks worrying where the extra $30 they need for heat, in this extended cold spell, is going to come from.


Speaking of $30, it's 30 Thursday at north today and with the NRX down yet again you get what you pay for. Slide Brook is getting close to state inspection, so it might run this year.
As Shady said, snowmaking resumed and a day was spent blowing around Bravo base, Coffee Run and the slick fest near Allyns. Woot Woot.

http://www.moviesmackdown.com/wpress/wp-content/gallery/1990s/brokedown-palace.jpg

[angler]

Bottom line is the management of this mountain sucks in almost all aspects. I miss my friends but Im glad I switched mountains this year! :)

[MntMan4Bush]

Go Figure - While I appreciate your concerns on how I spend my money, they're mine. I won't trouble you of stories of my past and how I was on the $30 for heat end at one point of my life. If you want to start a different thread for hardships by all means. I'm sure others have plenty to add and are currently worse off than the lot of us here.

My point though is that while money grubbing on people and trying to raise profits how about pouring back into the mountain. Better snow, more lifts open, more trails ski-able (i.e. not sheets of bulletproof glass) That will make the lifts shorter for all of us, spread people on the mountain and make the overall experience better.

By the way if you know that Lagavulin costs $70 you've possibly bought a bottle before. Just saying. Could be wrong though. Any ways. Hey pot. This is kettle. I'm calling you out. Also I have an "opinion" of people who use the word "entitled", but I won't bother you with that as I'm sure you won't bother me with people who use the word "opinion".

[El Bishop]

FWIW, they did give free child passes for anyone under 7 (or something like that) with each all mtn pass purchased in Sept/Oct. My 3 yo's was free

[win]

I really don't understand what you are taking about. The fact is that we have made more snow at this point in the season than ever since buying the mountain. We can't make snow where there is no snowmking and we aren't going to put snow on placed like Castlerock. In my opinion, the snomaking team has done and excellent job as have the groomers and the vast number of our guests tell me that.

[MntMan4Bush]

Well I guess you have the numbers in front of you so you would be in the know of volume of snow. No one can question that.

However the comparison we are making is to other ski areas, the quantity and quality of snow that is made there. I'm sorry but there is a huge difference in both compared to other mountains. Can't even get into a quantity game with other mountains because it's not even close and investments to try and compete haven't been made.

With quality, well. I don't know what to say. No one is arguing that your team isn't working hard and it sucks to have to say it because no one wants to have their work picked apart, and I recognize you have to stand up for your team, but the fact is the quality of snow that is made, when it is made, is not on par with other eastern resorts. You no doubt have spent countless days at your competitors, likely when they are making is snow like Pacman Jones making it rain. Light snow coming down that's soft underfoot. Not wet glop in the face and giant swales that look like the mountain top in Whoville where the Grinch lives.

As for making snow where there is no snowmaking? I'm not sure anyone asked for that. Not sure how you would do it. Just asking for better and more snow to be made where there are already lines. As for Castlerock? No way anyone asked for that. I think they just asked for some to be pushed down to the waiting area and run out. If they asked otherwise we'll grab the pitchforks and have a "talking' to them.

While I was standing in line at SB the other day with GH down for the second time that day and SB went down I had a lot of time to hear other people's sentiments. Sadly none were about how excellent it was. I'm sorry to say it and it's hard to hear, but it's possible that what people say to you in person to be polite may not mirror actual opinion. You stuck around and read while we showered accolades. I would encourage you to stay around and hear what people have to say now. The feedback is just as relevant and accurate now as it was before. Perhaps we've all had a shot of Johnny Courage hiding behind the internet and pent up aggression due to the conditions so maybe we can tone down the angst a bit, but the underlying issues remain.

[angler]

Well I guess you have the numbers in front of you so you would be in the know of volume of snow. No one can question that.

However the comparison we are making is to other ski areas, the quantity and quality of snow that is made there. I'm sorry but there is a huge difference in both compared to other mountains. Can't even get into a quantity game with other mountains because it's not even close and investments to try and compete haven't been made.

With quality, well. I don't know what to say. No one is arguing that your team isn't working hard and it sucks to have to say it because no one wants to have their work picked apart, and I recognize you have to stand up for your team, but the fact is the quality of snow that is made, when it is made, is not on par with other eastern resorts. You no doubt have spent countless days at your competitors, likely when they are making is snow like Pacman Jones making it rain. Light snow coming down that's soft underfoot. Not wet glop in the face and giant swales that look like the mountain top in Whoville where the Grinch lives.

As for making snow where there is no snowmaking? I'm not sure anyone asked for that. Not sure how you would do it. Just asking for better and more snow to be made where there are already lines. As for Castlerock? No way anyone asked for that. I think they just asked for some to be pushed down to the waiting area and run out. If they asked otherwise we'll grab the pitchforks and have a "talking' to them.

While I was standing in line at SB the other day with GH down for the second time that day and SB went down I had a lot of time to hear other people's sentiments. Sadly none were about how excellent it was. I'm sorry to say it and it's hard to hear, but it's possible that what people say to you in person to be polite may not mirror actual opinion. You stuck around and read while we showered accolades. I would encourage you to stay around and hear what people have to say now. The feedback is just as relevant and accurate now as it was before. Perhaps we've all had a shot of Johnny Courage hiding behind the internet and pent up aggression due to the conditions so maybe we can tone down the angst a bit, but the underlying issues remain.

Well said! I wonder if management has gone to visit their competitors? If they have I'm not sure how anyone on that team could argue with a straight face that SB is on par with the other mountains we were talking about when it comes to the lift situation and snowmaking. Its not on the same planet......

[skimore]

Anyone notice the broken waterline for the snow making system at the bottom of Steins on Saturday morning? I saw that one gushing water. Also riding VH, it looked like one let loose in the woods to left down low, did not see that one gushing but the snow was carved out by what appeared to be a high flow of water. Could be just bad luck?