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View Full Version : Sugarbush Files with USFS to upgrade VH to a Quad



Strat
01-17-2014, 11:09 AM
This has certainly been rumored and discussed for years, but looks like they're making it official with this filing (actually announced on January 9). Plans say they'd like to do a fixed grip rather than high-speed quad, and also do some reconstruction at the top to allow for better traffic and less congestion there, which has been sorely needed for years.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDfxMDT8MwRydLA1cj72 BTUwMTAwgAykeaxRtBeY4WBv4eHmF-YT4GMHkidBvgAI6EdIeDXIvfdrAJuM3388jPTdUvyA2NMMgyUQ QAyrgQmg!!/dl3/d3/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS9ZQnZ3LzZfS000MjZOMDcxT1RVODBJN0o2MT JQRDMwODQ!/?project=43454

Apologies if this was posted already, looks pretty quiet around here...

pinnoke
01-17-2014, 11:19 AM
Nice! Other than the surprisingly good skiing despite weather challenges, this is something to keep the conversation lively! I'm migrating to southern NE this weekend...hope you have a great weekend at SB if you're skiing/riding. Keep it cold, Sugarbush!

Hawk
01-17-2014, 12:45 PM
Yup they are proposing a Quad. The scoping information says that the top of the lift will be below they existing location by 50' and that they will be revamping the Valley house traverse trail to work with this new location. I would imagine that the top of Steins and the Mall will be effected in some way. It says that they will widen the VH traverse by 10 to 20 feet for about 250 feet. It will be interesting to see. I also assume they will need to cut a new small connector trail over to Snowball from that location also. I wonder if that will impact Gangsta's. I have mixed emotions. Love the idea of the new lift but how much will it impact the Mall and Steins. At first take I will say thumbs up!

teleo
01-17-2014, 12:55 PM
Hate to see the mall widened. But it's time to replace that lift and redo the intersection.

Also says starting point is the same. So VH lodge stays.

Good to see skiing improvements. Should we thank the Rice Brook owners;-)

gostan
01-17-2014, 02:36 PM
Hate to see the mall widened. But it's time to replace that lift and redo the intersection.

Also says starting point is the same. So VH lodge stays.

Good to see skiing improvements. Should we thank the Rice Brook owners;-)Guys, this is all good news! Thx the ownership that the busy days Sugar Bravo base cluster will be eased. Sure, we can be concerned about opening up the top of Steins and Mall to more skiers who may not belong there. All change and progress has its issues.

teleo
01-17-2014, 04:31 PM
Agreed, this is good news. When we see the line at bravo tomorrow on MLK Sat, we can think about a new VH quad!

southvillager
01-17-2014, 05:10 PM
Great news that solves several problems. I can't wait. I bet traffic on the traverse will drop quite a lot, since intermediates will be able to do laps on Snowball/Spring Fling/Racers edge without using Super Bravo. I'm impressed!

The capacity per chair is obviously doubled, but will the speed also be increased? And/or the # of chairs? I guess I am wondering about overall uphill capacity of a modern fixed grip quad. Does anyone know stats?

Hawk
01-18-2014, 09:17 AM
I guess you could compare to the summit quad.

http://www.skilifts.org/old/images/resort_images/vt-sugarbush/summit/summit.html


Good resource for the every lift.

shadyjay
01-18-2014, 10:00 AM
Great news that solves several problems. I can't wait. I bet traffic on the traverse will drop quite a lot, since intermediates will be able to do laps on Snowball/Spring Fling/Racers edge without using Super Bravo. I'm impressed!

Even after the replacement, I'd guess Valley House would remain as a weekend/backup lift, so I wouldn't expect traverse traffic to drop off. On [most] weekdays, there's no need to run both Bravo and VH. But perhaps it would capture more overflow crowd on those busy days, seeing as it will be a quad and new.

But I do indeed welcome anything that would make the VHT-top lift-SB intersection safer.

Tin Woodsman
01-18-2014, 10:40 PM
From the map provided, it looks like the only widening of The Mall would be at the way bottom, as the base terminal would be somewhat to the East of the current version. Looks like the summit terminal will be right at the crest of The Mall where it hits the VH Traverse. VHT would then be widened to the South to provide more room for people coming down the trail. They'll have to blast through that cliff right at/before the last turn on VHT before you hit VH double, but that's really the only card they can play with the topography.

Sort of bummed they didn't place the base terminal down below VH lodge, but the extra capacity will be much appreciated on weekends, holidays and wind hold days.

HowieT2
01-19-2014, 09:53 PM
This a great great news. Exciting. No mixed feelings here. The erector set from 1960 needs to go.

As for speed, I have no idea how much faster a modern lift will be, but Pretty sure it's a lot faster than the old one.

Treeskier
01-21-2014, 08:56 AM
I find it a real shame that they are not planning to extend it down to the base area.

howitzer
01-21-2014, 10:30 AM
Anybody know if they are talking about replacing the Village double at the same time? Would seem to make sense.

ThinkSno
01-21-2014, 11:28 AM
I find it a real shame that they are not planning to extend it down to the base area.

I agree. Extend down to base area and rebuild the Valley House around it as a novelty.

HowieT2
01-21-2014, 01:12 PM
I agree. Extend down to base area and rebuild the Valley House around it as a novelty.

I'd love to see that too but it appears they are committing to the valley house structure.

MntMan4Bush
01-21-2014, 01:43 PM
Don't suppose you could put a bend/angle in the line there to still make it come all the way down? A little detour to preserve the existing structure? Maybe a slight angle to the skiers left coming down the lift line. Not sure if there's enough room to or even where it woudl land for a line to be setup. That would really maximize it's use, especially for the crammed starts in the AM and post lunch.

Hawk
01-21-2014, 02:10 PM
Considering how crowded the base is right now, how do you think it will look with two separate lift lines and another lift base down there? ........And there you have the problem they are faced with. They really need to remove the maintenece building, the mushroom building and some of the other building just to have enough space to land the lift and have the lift lines and allow traffice to move through. Since they are not going to do anything with the VH lodge any time soon, the senerio they have proposed is the best they can do for right now.

MorningWoods
01-21-2014, 03:17 PM
I'd love to see that too but it appears they are committing to the valley house structure.

Save the money, build that lift that was planned at the top of Inverness and connect to MRG. Or just leave things the way they are... change is stupid. (let the rants begin....)

Treeskier
01-21-2014, 04:53 PM
go over the top of it! Then extend it. Fill in flatten remove trees a bit down so it lands next to Clay Brook.

Funny or interesting as a side note to see we are claiming 1" new yesterday but Mad River is claiming 4-6 new and enough to re-open the main MT tomorrow.

HowieT2
01-22-2014, 01:11 PM
Save the money, build that lift that was planned at the top of Inverness and connect to MRG. Or just leave things the way they are... change is stupid. (let the rants begin....)

I dont know if you're joking, but i dont think there can be much debate that the vhd needs to be replaced. its pushing 60 years old.

Roadkill
01-22-2014, 03:48 PM
Last weekend I was standing at the end of the Super Bravo corral and considered making the hike up to the VHD. I decided to wait the 20 minutes in line. I'd do the same if the lift is a fixed grip quad. Now, if there was a magic carpet alongside the Valley House to transport me, I do that in a heartbeat. I wonder if replacing the lift will alleviate base crowding as much as we hope.

vonski
01-22-2014, 04:00 PM
It will as people will not ski down to Bravo when the see the line and jump on the new Quad. I think a magic carpet would be good to bring u up to it.

MorningWoods
01-22-2014, 06:43 PM
Yes a joke. The vh double needs to be replaced and that death funnel on top of the mall needs attention for sure. But.. Obvious culture clashes aside.... It is a cool thought.

gostan
01-22-2014, 06:51 PM
It will as people will not ski down to Bravo when the see the line and jump on the new Quad. I think a magic carpet would be good to bring u up to it.Someday this issue will be resolved. It is walking up the hill carrying ski equipment that is the issue for many SBushers. Although I do not see why this is such a difficult task in doing so as we are all out there for both the thrills and the exercise. But, installation of a vernicular should allow all to successfully get up the hill to the new VH quad. After all, we do not want anybody falling off of a magic carpet ride.

Hawk
01-22-2014, 10:36 PM
I am sorry but I always walk up to the double when the line is long. I personally do not see the issue but that is me. I like walking. We will have all kinds of time to talk about this. Even though they filed with the Forest service, I don't think they have filed with the town. Also if they were going to get this done this summer they would have to start the bidding and purchasing of the equipment and installation. I have heard nothing on this.

djd66
01-23-2014, 08:09 AM
For me, the walk up hill does not have much to do with it either. I am more concerned about how long the line is and how long the lift ride takes. I still think they could put in a HSQ or HSTriple and not have any effect on the amount of skier traffic in that area. ON a busy Saturday - when they are running the double and your have all the traversers from SB - this easily = the same amount of skier traffic you would have from a HSQ. If they put in a HSQ, people would have much less of on issue with the walk up hill and there would be a lot less people in line at Bravo.

Mt St Pipier
01-23-2014, 08:42 AM
If the fixed quad is a lot cheaper and means more investment elsewhere, works for me. Also, a HSQ is just too many people on too few trails over there. The beauty of Sugarbush is the lack of crowded trails.

I think there used to be a magic carpet to the Valley House, maybe 15 years ago? I agree it's somewhat silly for adult skiers, but it would help young Blazer kids going up there. Also, if VH is to remain and be part of the lunch and apres scene again, it would help. Non-skiing spouses would be more likely to head up to Wunderbar. We could re-open the Mushroom. The storage lockers there would be more desirable.

gostan
01-23-2014, 08:48 AM
For me, the walk up hill does not have much to do with it either. I am more concerned about how long the line is and how long the lift ride takes. I still think they could put in a HSQ or HSTriple and not have any effect on the amount of skier traffic in that area. ON a busy Saturday - when they are running the double and your have all the traversers from SB - this easily = the same amount of skier traffic you would have from a HSQ. If they put in a HSQ, people would have much less of on issue with the walk up hill and there would be a lot less people in line at Bravo.I assume the a HSQ is a larger investment than a FGQ. But, maybe they want to have better safety controls over what is still going to be a pretty tight get off of the lift area at the top of the new chair. I am OK with the FGQ. would rather see an investment to replace the HG triple with a new HSQ

Hawk
01-23-2014, 09:34 AM
High speed quads are way more expensive, are more susceptible to wind, Ice and lift closures and would put way to many people on those trails. You calculation on number of skiers from the double and Bravo traverse is not correct. The double is 450 skiers per hour and less than 1/3 of skies go that way from Bravo which is reported to be about 2000 skiers per hour so let’s say 666 skiers. That is a little over 1100 sph. A new HSQ can move up to 2500 skiers per hour. I cannot see the traffic being the same. Let’s stick with a fixed grip quad or triple please.

HowieT2
01-23-2014, 09:55 AM
There is no need for a hsq either in terms of capacity or speed up the hill. Its not a long lift. frankly, i'm somewhat surprised that theyve chosen a quad instead of a triple. not that i'm complaining.

As far as timing goes, the application seemed to indicate they are ready to start the process this spring. I'd imagine that assuming they have the financing, its pretty easy to get the lift installed in the offseason.

personally, I wouldnt mind the walk as much if you could go directly to the lift without having to walk around the vh.

flakeydog
01-23-2014, 11:02 AM
if you can see the pic, there was a magic carpet up to VH.... but as i remember, it only went up to the bottom of the stairs next to the mushroom. You could also walk up about 2x faster than it took to ride the carpet.

Hardbooter
01-23-2014, 11:48 AM
In the original plans for Clay Brook, the "new" valley house chair was shown coming down to a base area somewhere close to where the patrol building is below the mushroom. I remember talking with various senior sugarbush employees/owners about that. They confirmed, at the time, that they'ed like to see the valley house chair come down near bravo and that they wanted to reengineer the top area. Hopefully that's still the plan. Personally I think it would be nice to able to ski down the mall across coffee run and right to the base of the chair. I'm not sure that's in the cards though even if the base was relocated.
BTW, I remember the magic carpet in front of the valley house. It was there for a few years not too long ago.

southvillager
01-23-2014, 02:07 PM
if you can see the pic, there was a magic carpet up to VH.... but as i remember, it only went up to the bottom of the stairs next to the mushroom. You could also walk up about 2x faster than it took to ride the carpet.

I seem to remember that it went up looker's left...up toward the launch pad for the zip line. But my memory is very, very fuzzy. I do remember walking up instead of waiting on the carpet.

flakeydog
01-24-2014, 10:21 AM
I think there may have been a couple of iterations on the magic carpet there. at one point it had a cover over it that really gave this space that carnival-like atmosphere and still only got you halfway there. Also there was the Spring Fling Triple chair up there too giving another reason to hang out up there.

It is a tough space because over to the left it is a bit steep, in the middle it just gets in the way of people skiing down and over to the right it doesnt really take you anywhere. There really is a lot going on in this space... you have the VH lodge, mountain ops bldg, the mushroom, the SB lift/lift line, a ski trail, and a river running though the whole thing. Because of this, i think the base of the lift needs to stay essentially where it is, even if you removed some or all of the buildings.

On another note, curious about the top.... i am picturing the traverse passing behind the top of the new lift (with the help of some blasting) and the lift having a lower terminus (as mentioned). I am wondering if the access to Stein's and the reverse traverse be dramatically altered? If Bravo goes down, at least you can work your way over to HG on the traverse. Steins should really be skied from the top and the traverse allows access to some woods areas as well as alt route to HG and other parts of the mtn. I would like to see the new lift access the same terrain as before if possible.

Hawk
01-24-2014, 12:24 PM
Personally I would rather they brought the top of the lift back further into the woods beyond the current location about 30 to 40 feet. People could go off the lift to the left and ski snow ball. To the right I would circle back the trail and install a culvert style tunnel so you can access Steins, the Mall and Reverse Traverse. Nothing to big just big enough to allow the through traffic from the Valley house Traverse to go over the people heading to Steins/Mall/Reverse Traverse. I have seent this in Chamonix. A 10 foot diameter corregated culvert about 20 feet long. They could put fence on both sides so the skiesr above would be protected from falling off.

Tin Woodsman
01-24-2014, 02:32 PM
On further review, I like the current idea:

1) It will speed the ride, as the current double has a max speed of 350 feet/min while most modern fixed grip lifts are in the 500 feet/min range. That's should knock 2-3 minutes off the ride time.

2) The quad is likely to be under-utilized until and unless it's really needed when Bravo goes down. Ultimately, I don't see it putting a lot more traffic on that pod b/c most skiers will refuse to walk up the hill or will be attracted to the HSQ like moths to a light. As such, the primary impact of the quad will be to make it more wind-resistant due to the heavier weight vs. a double or triple. That can only be a good thing.

3) If/when the VH lodge exhausts its 9 lives, you always retain the option to lengthen the chair and bring it down to the base - it's not wildly complicated. As mentioned in this thread, they'd need to have a long, hard though about how to both reconfigure the base area and accommodating the overflow from the chronically undersized GH lodge, but you are certainly not precluded from lengthening the chair if/when the opportunity presents itself.

4) The only practical manner to smooth out the traffic at the top if to have the cross traffic from the VH traverse move around/beyond the summit terminal. otherwise you are facing the prospect of people crossing each other if those getting off the lift are doubling back to Steins/Reverse Traverse. The tunnel idea seems expensive and impractical in comparison, though that's just my $0.02.

Hawk
01-24-2014, 03:10 PM
Actually the tunnel is not expensive at all. It is just a corregated steel tube burred in the earth. They are going to blast, move earth and regrade all around the top of the lift to make this work out. That is way more expsensive.

slatham
01-25-2014, 11:25 AM
I am just glad they are doing something on the mountain!! With CB and RB done, its time to focus on why people come to Sugarbush in the first place - to ski! VH, Village, HG are all in need of replacement. Snowmaking needs to be upgraded. Glad to this is the next plan, and not another condo complex. Though I can't argue with the priorities thus far, now its time for on mountain investments!

angler
01-25-2014, 12:05 PM
I am just glad they are doing something on the mountain!! With CB and RB done, its time to focus on why people come to Sugarbush in the first place - to ski! VH, Village, HG are all in need of replacement. Snowmaking needs to be upgraded. Glad to this is the next plan, and not another condo complex. Though I can't argue with the priorities thus far, now its time for on mountain investments!

It's way past due for mountain improvements. With the winters (or lack of) east coast mountains need to create their own mountain and the only way to do that is make quality snow and lots of it. Maybe they should visit Stowe and see how it's done.

ducky
01-25-2014, 03:27 PM
So where are they going to move the pot smoking shed to?

angler
01-25-2014, 03:39 PM
So where are they going to move the pot smoking shed to?
Where the snow is!

Hawk
01-26-2014, 09:08 AM
So I think I now understand better where the top of the lift is going and I think it is a good solution. While standing at the top of the mall yesterday, someone pointed out that the new lift would land right where the trail is now just below the current location. This would allow the same access to Steins, Reverse Traverse and the mall. There would be very little change to the tops of the trails. The Valley House traverse would be modified to go behind the new lift and not cross under the lift. Basically they would remove that huge concrete counter weight and the steel structure and cut out some of the trees and rocks. You will now be able to fly right behind the lift and not have to hit the brakes. This makes total sense to me. I guess my tunnel is not needed. :-)

win
02-03-2014, 02:45 PM
I haven't read all the entries but here are the facts. We are keeping the VH Lodge. We plan to replace VH double with a fixed grip quad at some point and have started the permitting process, but the timing is not deceided yet. We plan to site the upper terminal to made it less exposed to the wind and allow access to all the trails that it currently serves.