Sugarbush VT has stopped

[teleo]

They updated the app for summer. Makes sense, orient to golf, zipline, etc. Funny part is when I go to conditions on my S3 I get "sugarbush VT has stopped". I guess it is slower than I thought up there this time of year;)

[Ride Delaware ?]

And for some reason, they never fixed the snow report link on the winter mobile site... Must be slow...

I'll be up sometime next month to see how slow it really is/check on the condo renovations...

[Ride Delaware ?]

They always talk about making resorts 4 season, but it seems easier said than done. What do you think the easiest thing would be to increase summer traffic?

[Tin Woodsman]

They always talk about making resorts 4 season, but it seems easier said than done. What do you think the easiest thing would be to increase summer traffic?
I'd think that somewhere near the top of the list would have to be a re-vamped and/or expanded SHARC. Also, something other resorts do is set-up week long summer adventure camps for the kiddies. Would enable Mom and Dad to book a week long trip while ensuring that the kids are kept dirty, busy and happy.

[WWF-VT]

I'd think that somewhere near the top of the list would have to be a re-vamped and/or expanded SHARC. Also, something other resorts do is set-up week long summer adventure camps for the kiddies. Would enable Mom and Dad to book a week long trip while ensuring that the kids are kept dirty, busy and happy.

Take a look at this link:

http://www.sugarbush.com/summer/camps-clinics-lessons/kids

[shadyjay]

They updated the app for summer.

So I wondered what ever happened to my last day I trakked with the ap - Saturday May 4. It didn't track on the winter app. But there it is on the Summer App... 3 runs tracked on Stein's on the summer mountain biking & hiking map. Apparently, May 1 is the cutoff date between the two seasons of apps as far as tracking goes.

[HowieT2]

I'd think that somewhere near the top of the list would have to be a re-vamped and/or expanded SHARC. Also, something other resorts do is set-up week long summer adventure camps for the kiddies. Would enable Mom and Dad to book a week long trip while ensuring that the kids are kept dirty, busy and happy.

They have plenty of great stuff for the kids in the summer.

The mtn biking and zip line are good. The mtn is not completely dead like it used to be. and they do plenty of weddings. I think they need something on the gatehouse side like a mtn coaster or water slides.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want anything like Jay Peak at Sugarbush. I think the development has gotten so far out of control there, that's it's lost any of that laid back feel I like so much.

However, I think everyone would like an updated SHARC. The entry to that place, for the quality of the experience and equipment is incredibly expensive. If it were immaculately maintained then it might be worth the monthly fee. That being said, there's a decent amount of space around the SHARC for other options. I think an updated SHARC facility with a small water park could drive a decent amount of people looking for a summer getaway. It could also add to those kid camps. Should it be full scale blow my mind type stuff? No, but why not give it a shot and see. You can always add to it from there. Plus, year round activities for everyone drives condo sales. Before we get to far ahead of ourselves, does it get warm enough for an outdoor water park? I would imagine it takes 80 degree days?

[HowieT2]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want anything like Jay Peak at Sugarbush. I think the development has gotten so far out of control there, that's it's lost any of that laid back feel I like so much.

However, I think everyone would like an updated SHARC. The entry to that place, for the quality of the experience and equipment is incredibly expensive. If it were immaculately maintained then it might be worth the monthly fee. That being said, there's a decent amount of space around the SHARC for other options. I think an updated SHARC facility with a small water park could drive a decent amount of people looking for a summer getaway. It could also add to those kid camps. Should it be full scale blow my mind type stuff? No, but why not give it a shot and see. You can always add to it from there. Plus, year round activities for everyone drives condo sales. Before we get to far ahead of ourselves, does it get warm enough for an outdoor water park? I would imagine it takes 80 degree days?

I think a sharc rehab is a no brainier necessity. It is just not up to current standards.

As for the water park thing, I have heard from several non-skier friends interest in going to jay because of the water park. It is an added dimension for those looking for a destination vacation. It kind of insures the vacation against inclement weather/conditions. And it is great fun after a day of skiing. However, I was at jay this spring and the water park was crowded, despite its size. And this was not a big weekend or holiday. It was fun, don't get me wrong, but it may be the kind of thing that needs to be huge to work at all and I'm not sure it would work at lp. IMHO, an upgraded sharc with some kind og big interesting pool, hot tubs etc. is the way to go.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Yeah, I would agree. I know that we all think that capital improvements on snowmaking, lifts, and a new Valley House lodge have been slow, but Win has done everything conservatively to insure that he is not over leveraged and can continue to grow. I believe that we will continue to see steady growth and improvements.

I have also heard great things about Jay and it's improvements, and it has truly become a destination area with the ice skating rink and the water park. However, I don't think that vision fits the MRV and I don't think that kind of capital exists in the MRV, whether that be through EB-5 or real estate sales. They are still trying to sell phase 1 Rice Brook condos. Personally, I would hate to see Sugarbush end up looking like an over developed amusement park like Jay is shaping up to be.

That being said, I agree with Howie that the SHARC needs to be updated, and when that happens, they can make it more appealing by adding some features and growing the experience. I believe that Win & Co. have been mum on SHARC upgrades, but with the continuing upscale evolution of Sugarbush's clientele, real estate, and amenities, I have to believe they have given some thought to it. Unfortunately, the SHARC stands as one of the last remaining ASC deferred maintenance blunders.

[HowieT2]

Yeah, I would agree. I know that we all think that capital improvements on snowmaking, lifts, and a new Valley House lodge have been slow, but Win has done everything conservatively to insure that he is not over leveraged and can continue to grow. I believe that we will continue to see steady growth and improvements.

I have also heard great things about Jay and it's improvements, and it has truly become a destination area with the ice skating rink and the water park. However, I don't think that vision fits the MRV and I don't think that kind of capital exists in the MRV, whether that be through EB-5 or real estate sales. They are still trying to sell phase 1 Rice Brook condos. Personally, I would hate to see Sugarbush end up looking like an over developed amusement park like Jay is shaping up to be.

That being said, I agree with Howie that the SHARC needs to be updated, and when that happens, they can make it more appealing by adding some features and growing the experience. I believe that Win & Co. have been mum on SHARC upgrades, but with the continuing upscale evolution of Sugarbush's clientele, real estate, and amenities, I have to believe they have given some thought to it. Unfortunately, the SHARC stands as one of the last remaining ASC deferred maintenance blunders.

for the record, I dont think the capital improvements have been slow considering the economic environment since '07. and the history of the ski resort industry in this country is littered with tales of over indulgence in debt leading to a demise.

as for a skating rink, there were renderings of a renewed skatium in waitsfield floating around a couple years ago. imho, a skating rink should be somewhere at or about the LP base, preferably to tie in the base, sb village and an updated shark.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Howie, I don't think I meant "slow" so much as slow and steady, or measured. I know that the market has been rough, and that most of these improvements so far, after years of ASC neglect, are being paid out of the general operating fund, not from real estate sales. I think Win has done a great job with what he has been given.

I think that a great deal can be done to bring the LP base area together into a more cohesive base area that will draw people in and keep them there. I think the Rice Brook Project is a step in the right direction, and hopefully, a face lift for the Sugarbush Village will follow. With a new upscale maintained base area, a slightly renovated SB Village, and a renovated SHARC, I think it will solidify the base area offerings for years to come. I think it will be more of an addition for the winter crowd than add to summer growth, but it's a step in the right direction.

As for the skatium, I think it would be a benefit to SB just from the fact that it would add another winter activity, and SB would be better able to maintain it. I don't think it should or will become something like Jay, but I think something under a cheap done that can be 3 season like would make it more viable as well. Honestly though, a skate rink doesn't do anything for me, I just like the idea of being able to come up to my condo, walk around the base area, and have all my immediate needs taken care of. I don't mind going into Waitsfield, but sometimes I like being able to take a walk and have it all there for me.

Lastly, does anybody have a general idea as to the amount of skier visits SB and ME boast? I know it's increased almost every year since Win took over in '01, but at we talking 250k a year, 350k? Anybody have a general idea?

[Benski]

They have plenty of great stuff for the kids in the summer.

The mtn biking and zip line are good. The mtn is not completely dead like it used to be. and they do plenty of weddings. I think they need something on the gatehouse side like a mtn coaster or water slides.

basically the mountain with a alpine coaster and a water park would be this.
http://www.mountaincreek.com/upload/photos/842MountainCreek2012_lo-rez_web.jpg

[Benski]

I thought that was a link to a page on there website with a map. They are also a ski area.

[ski_resort_observer]

As Howie mentioned the Bush has alot of summer activities if you checked the website you would see that things don't open up until the end of June except for some special events. golfing and weddings then it goes to daily operations until Labor Day, then it's weekends only until Columbus Day weekend in Oct. Most resorts do still have an off-season between winter and summer activities. Maybe Jay has become an exception to that business model.

Until the kids get out of school and families start taking summer vacations things are pretty quiet around here.

[HowieT2]

Howie, I don't think I meant "slow" so much as slow and steady, or measured. I know that the market has been rough, and that most of these improvements so far, after years of ASC neglect, are being paid out of the general operating fund, not from real estate sales. I think Win has done a great job with what he has been given.

I think that a great deal can be done to bring the LP base area together into a more cohesive base area that will draw people in and keep them there. I think the Rice Brook Project is a step in the right direction, and hopefully, a face lift for the Sugarbush Village will follow. With a new upscale maintained base area, a slightly renovated SB Village, and a renovated SHARC, I think it will solidify the base area offerings for years to come. I think it will be more of an addition for the winter crowd than add to summer growth, but it's a step in the right direction.

As for the skatium, I think it would be a benefit to SB just from the fact that it would add another winter activity, and SB would be better able to maintain it. I don't think it should or will become something like Jay, but I think something under a cheap done that can be 3 season like would make it more viable as well. Honestly though, a skate rink doesn't do anything for me, I just like the idea of being able to come up to my condo, walk around the base area, and have all my immediate needs taken care of. I don't mind going into Waitsfield, but sometimes I like being able to take a walk and have it all there for me.

Lastly, does anybody have a general idea as to the amount of skier visits SB and ME boast? I know it's increased almost every year since Win took over in '01, but at we talking 250k a year, 350k? Anybody have a general idea?

don't quote me on this as this is a guess based on my vague recollection of hearing a number years ago and extrapolating increases since, but somewhere between 250k and 300k.

[random_ski_guy]

While Win has no control over this, another reality is that the overall economy in the Northeast remains rather weak.

There is also the value problem, if you catch the right airfair - a trip to Utah or whereever can cost about the same or only a little more if that person lives in NYC, Boston, Washington DC, etc because flying direct from a hub city can be rather inexpensive. There is also the lodging problem. So much of the lodging is well below standard - particularly when you can stay in a 10yr old condo in Park City for the same coin.

I love the Bush - hoping for the best - but the weak economy, expensive lodging (if staying at Claybrook) - weak lodging if elsewhere - its a major challenge too.

[HowieT2]

While Win has no control over this, another reality is that the overall economy in the Northeast remains rather weak.

There is also the value problem, if you catch the right airfair - a trip to Utah or whereever can cost about the same or only a little more if that person lives in NYC, Boston, Washington DC, etc because flying direct from a hub city can be rather inexpensive. There is also the lodging problem. So much of the lodging is well below standard - particularly when you can stay in a 10yr old condo in Park City for the same coin.

I love the Bush - hoping for the best - but the weak economy, expensive lodging (if staying at Claybrook) - weak lodging if elsewhere - its a major challenge too.

true for a single, not so much for a couple and definitely not for a family. That $500 ticket isnt so bad compared to $100 in gas to drive up to vt. But for a family of 4, that's $2,000 compared to the same $100 in gas. and that doesnt figure in the baggage fees and hassle.
I agree that in general the lodging stock out west is better than at SB. hopefully, that will be addressed with the completion of the LP village.

[random_ski_guy]

Good point about families - although, again I find the lodging quality/price relationship so out of whack it can quickly even this up - particularly in the winter - but less so in the summer. Claybrook is $$ compared to equilvalents or places a notch below out west.

That all said, its a darn competitive world out there for the travel dollar. Its capital intensive and the choices are endless. And its not helping that the northeast economy remains on the weaker side.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I agree, it can be tough to entice people to come to the Northeast when price competition out west oftentimes yields better natural and better amenities. However, Win & Co. have continued to grow the skier base and amenities while working with limited capital and limiting their risk. As the economy ever so slowly recovers, and spending increases, I think we will see an increase in Rice Brook sales.

There is also a price point in which the property is kept in nicer shape. As long as the mountain operates, I believe that places like Rice Brook that are in an excellent location with excellent construction will hold their value and will be able to compete with Park City like accommodations. The properties that are most expensive are usually bought by people that have the means to buy them, and therefore upkeep them. The days of companies a la ASC, coming in and building crappy buildings and selling them for cheap to rape the land of it's value and move on, are mostly over. We are going to see an increase in accommodation quality just based on that. The new construction will be quality and should add to the overall perception of the mountain.

Second, we should also remember, that many of these mountains out west are still relatively young, and were primarily marketed to the wealthy from their inception. The construction quality was mostly better off the bat and it was created as a destination resort, not a weekend resort like many of the resorts in the Northeast. The resorts out west know that they have to entice their customers to fly from a population hub, whereas the Northeast market mostly competes for weekend warriors traveling a relatively short distance.

Win continues to fight the inherited demons of the past. He can't help that he's had to spend millions on deferred maintenance, or improve pretty much every lodge or building. He can't help that many of the private residences were built cheaply with non mountain styles with terrible layouts and trail access. He can only improve what is in his hands, and he is slowly doing that. He has done a great job. It's not as quick as many would like to see, but he has steadily headed in the right direction. As the market improves, new units are built with quality, and rental rates drop on older less maintained units, you will start to see improvements. Until then however, there's little reason for existing owners to improve. They are already getting the money they want and expect for the quality of place.

I believe that if Win can keep the amenities in pace with the skier growth, that Sugarbush will have no issues continuing to grow.

[HowieT2]

I don't know that its so much poor build quality or that the SB village condos that are substandard were built in the 60's and 70's. That was a long time ago and so they need significant work or replacement. wonder how claybrook will look in 50 years.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I don't know that its so much poor build quality or that the SB village condos that are substandard were built in the 60's and 70's. That was a long time ago and so they need significant work or replacement. wonder how claybrook will look in 50 years.
If they keep up with the maintenance and continue to charge a ridiculous, but justified condo fee, I'm sure it will look fine. Construction processes and materials have made some pretty significant increases in the past 50 years. Our place at SB used to have a flat tar roof, now it's a rubber membrane. It's going to be a pretty difficult trying to convince anybody to year down their units because they probably like that they are cheap to buy and maintain.

I live at the beach, and I believe in the trickle down effect as i have seen it firsthand. If the entire profile of the resort is raised, then the housing will follow. It will just take time.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I figured we would have gotten an update by now, but I guess everyone is busy having too much fun this summer. Have things started to pick up around there yet?

[HowieT2]

I figured we would have gotten an update by now, but I guess everyone is busy having too much fun this summer. Have things started to pick up around there yet?

crickets.

fwiw-july 4th has come and gone, new skis (Line SFB 184) arrived last week and I'm starting to get the itch for snow. Big Big Big Big winter incoming. seriously, we've had some extreme weather over the past 5 years, its only a matter of time for an extreme winter. 6-700" on the mtn. put that in your snow making pipe and smoke it. wouldnt that be fun.

[Ride Delaware ?]

crickets.

fwiw-july 4th has come and gone, new skis (Line SFB 184) arrived last week and I'm starting to get the itch for snow. Big Big Big Big winter incoming. seriously, we've had some extreme weather over the past 5 years, its only a matter of time for an extreme winter. 6-700" on the mtn. put that in your snow making pipe and smoke it. wouldnt that be fun.

That would be fun!!! What's the all time record at Sugarbush for a season? Does Sugarbush record annual snowfall, or snowfall during the operating ski season? I would settle for a solid 300" season. I know they aren't that rare, but I wouldn't mind seeing a season with a couple big dumps to go with the big upslope events. I know snow is snow, but it seems like the majority of snow has been upslope lately. Who doesn't like the occasional 24 hour 24" storm dump?

[HowieT2]

That would be fun!!! What's the all time record at Sugarbush for a season? Does Sugarbush record annual snowfall, or snowfall during the operating ski season? I would settle for a solid 300" season. I know they aren't that rare, but I wouldn't mind seeing a season with a couple big dumps to go with the big upslope events. I know snow is snow, but it seems like the majority of snow has been upslope lately. Who doesn't like the occasional 24 hour 24" storm dump?

I have a list of the seasonal snowfall over the last 15 years up until last year. I believe seasonal snowfall is defined as what falls during the operating season so as not to include before or after events. The average was 317" with the max being 2000-2001 with 432". I dont have data for prior years but that 2000-2001 winter is renowned as the best snow winter in NNE, so I think its safe to assume that 432" is the most.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I have a list of the seasonal snowfall over the last 15 years up until last year. I believe seasonal snowfall is defined as what falls during the operating season so as not to include before or after events. The average was 317" with the max being 2000-2001 with 432". I dont have data for prior years but that 2000-2001 winter is renowned as the best snow winter in NNE, so I think its safe to assume that 432" is the most.

Wow, a 432" season at Sugarbush? That's insane. It must have been off the hook. I can't even imagine. It's a shame I'm 12 years late to that party. I just hope this year is pretty epic. I'm planning on spending lots of time up there this season if all things line up. The condo is being renovated, so it should only be a matter of time until it's finished, and then I'll just be able to enjoy it.

It's a shame they haven't figured out a way to drive summer business. They have done incredibly well at growing the winter side of things. I'm sure Win and his crew have explored, and continue to explore many options.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Came up to the Bush yesterday. Nobody at the Clay Brook, Sugar Lodge, or condo parking lots. Leaves starting to change. Chill is in the air.

Today was a different story. Signs for the race came up, and there are people coming in. Hotels have cars in the parking lots and several condo parking lots are full.

Won't be long until business really picks up!