Wunderbar

[teleo]

No longer the great alternative lunch spot.

I guess too many people figured it out.

Been here an hour and 10 minutes and still waiting for food.

Hungry...

[HowieT2]

Mt ellen was great today. Service at the bar was superfast.

[teleo]

Usually do ME on Sat not Sun. LP was good skiing, but fairly busy for a Sun.

I think a number of some tour (mostly french speaking) all hit the wunderbar at the same time and overwhelmed the kitchen.

I'll give them credit for recognizing the issue and comping some food to try and compensate for what was not close to the expected or normal experience.

If the wonderbar is that successful, do we'll get the mushroom next year?....

[southvillager]

If the wonderbar is that successful, do we'll get the mushroom next year?....

I miss the Mushroom. There also used to be a large pub on the level where the bathrooms are located in the Valley House. The outline of the bar is visible in the carpet, and there are still plumbing stubs on the wall. Considering how packed the CRP still gets, and the clear success of the spruce up in the now busy Wunderbar, it seems like this room offers another straightforward low cost opportunity for renewal of an idle asset. Call it low hanging fruit. With all the "420s" flooding the resort, I think the younger Apres scene is ripe for the picking. There are more Millennials/Generation Y members than baby-boomers.

Imagine reviving that bar with PBRs on tap, pizza or burritos, extreme riding/skiing videos on the TVs, fashionable cocktails, and music playlists geared for Millennials/Generation Y.

[Hawk]

I think they called that bar the Wunderbar also back then. I had many a beer in that bar when the drinking age was 18 in VT and 21 in MA. ;-) I doubt that they will open another bar. It doesn't fit into the preplanned Budget. You know they have to meet their numbers. ;-)

[win]

Sorry about the wait. Yes, it has been discovered. The kitchen is not very large, so that can create a back log on a day like yesterday. Over the summer, we are going to be looking at expanding some F&B areas to deal with the really busy days. Snow does bring people out!

[HowieT2]

Sorry about the wait. Yes, it has been discovered. The kitchen is not very large, so that can create a back log on a day like yesterday. Over the summer, we are going to be looking at expanding some F&B areas to deal with the really busy days. Snow does bring people out!

Care to share what the possibilities are?
Short of erecting a new structure, the current facilities are pretty much maxed out.

[Xskier]

I miss the Mushroom. There also used to be a large pub on the level where the bathrooms are located in the Valley House. The outline of the bar is visible in the carpet, and there are still plumbing stubs on the wall. Considering how packed the CRP still gets, and the clear success of the spruce up in the now busy Wunderbar, it seems like this room offers another straightforward low cost opportunity for renewal of an idle asset. Call it low hanging fruit. With all the "420s" flooding the resort, I think the younger Apres scene is ripe for the picking. There are more Millennials/Generation Y members than baby-boomers.

Imagine reviving that bar with PBRs on tap, pizza or burritos, extreme riding/skiing videos on the TVs, fashionable cocktails, and music playlists geared for Millennials/Generation Y.

You have my vote on that one. Not a Generation Y but avoid the dark, depressing CRP like the plague. Love hanging at the Wunderbar though and would welcome any other non basement like Pubs.

[HowieT2]

You have my vote on that one. Not a Generation Y but avoid the dark, depressing CRP like the plague. Love hanging at the Wunderbar though and would welcome any other non basement like Pubs.

why is the CRP "depressing"? I dont find it that way at all. Other than being too crowded, my only complaint is that the cell signal doesnt penetrate in there and there is no wifi signal. (and while we're on the topic, the wifi login procedure is absolutely unbearable).

anyone notice the multiple webcams now available? Thank you.

[Benski]

why is the CRP "depressing"? I don't find it that way at all. Other than being too crowded, my only complaint is that the cell signal doesn't penetrate in there and there is no wifi signal. (and while we're on the topic, the wifi login procedure is absolutely unbearable).

anyone notice the multiple webcams now available? Thank you.
The wifi login hasn't even came up the last 10 times I tried to use the gatehouse wifi.

[Benski]

Care to share what the possibilities are?
Short of erecting a new structure, the current facilities are pretty much maxed out.
Howie you are forgetting about the vh cafeteria the mushroom and the room on the floor of the vh bathrooms. the vh cafeteria needs a revamp the mood is depressing, the food is not good, and it cost the same as the gate house.

[southvillager]

Howie you are forgetting about the vh cafeteria the mushroom and the room on the floor of the vh bathrooms.

There is even a little tiny unused bar on a level up from the Mushroom (but lower than the bathroom level). I used to hang there in the '80s. I still like the VH, though it pales in comparison to the newer buildings, there is a certain appeal for me in that "old contemporary" style of base lodge.

[gostan]

Hopefully, the future retail component phase of the new Rice Brook complex will include a decent sized restaurant and bar to not only fill the need for additional eating and drinking choice at both lunch and après ski, but that it might also be leased/operated by a non-mountain owned operator in order to provide a real alternative and change of pace from the existing mountain choices.

[djd66]

I love the Wunderbar - it is my choice place to have lunch on a Saturday. You can not beat the service there,... no double top secret codes to get fast service. The bar tender (Emily) is a riot and has loads of energy. i would love to see the moutain put a few bucks into that building. The views/lighting/high ceilings give the place a much more open feel than CRP - IMHO.

[HowieT2]

I love the Wunderbar - it is my choice place to have lunch on a Saturday. You can not beat the service there,... no double top secret codes to get fast service. The bar tender (Emily) is a riot and has loads of energy. i would love to see the moutain put a few bucks into that building. The views/lighting/high ceilings give the place a much more open feel than CRP - IMHO.

I dont know about putting real money into that structure. Its not that i dont like it, it just seems to me to be very disjointed such that the bang for the buck isnt there, not to mention that its old and doesnt seem to have good bones. The bar area outside the mushroom is a good example. At best it can fit 10-15 people. Not even worth having a bartender let alone fixing it up. I've always favored the original plan of knocking the vh down.

Whats interesting is how the base will change when the rice brook is completed. Hopefully it will connect the base to sb village in a meaningful way. Not only will some traffic by drawn to rice brook, but also into the eating/drinking establishments in the village. As it stands now, no one goes into the village during the ski day. When rice brook is open and there is an attractive walk/ski path between the base and the village, traffic should be more spread out. And that opens up 2 bar/restaurants, a deli and pizza shop to the lunch crowd.

[teleo]

There is definitely under-utilized space in VH for beverage. Mushroom and Wunderbar have the best views. As long as VH isn't leveled for a new lift, might as well make better use of the space. Not sure there is any under-utilized kitchen space for food though. That is harder to solve. Closest I can think of is Pine Tree Pub or Chez-Henri but that's not owned by the mtn and a little further than most want to go.

[Benski]

A stair case going up that hill to the valley house would be very helpful in getting people to eat there.

[gostan]

I thought that VH was originally going to be torn down, but that it has hung on in survival mode (it is a pit) only because there is no other place to house the ski instructors and because Gatehouse & CRP are a design disaster to to their inadequate people capacity - especially with the uptick in skier visits this season. It is difficult to understand how this could have happened with three new buildngs having been constructed so recently and how it can continue for too much longer. Maybe Rice Brook will connect the main mountain to the village and act as a people safety valve during rush hours.

Sure, the ski product is most important to all of us here on this forum, but the on mountain lodge and dining experiences are what most day ticket purchasers remember. If I were a day ticket purchaser, I would definitely not return after having to stand around in Gatehouse for 20 minutes looking for a chair for my friends and family to sit and eat on a Saturday (& Saturdays and holiday weekends are the peak of these crowds)

Unfortunately, this lack of adequate on mountain amenities causes me to plan an 11ish lunch on the run or at Allyn's and a 3ish stop at Timbers or off mountain.

I will say that mountain ownership & management have done a lot of great things to bring the skiers to SB and improve our skiing experiences with snowmaking and skiing that have been great this season albeit without the benefit of some really big snow dumps. And a big thx for the additional webcams.

[southvillager]

Sure, the ski product is most important to all of us here on this forum, but the on mountain lodge and dining experiences are what most day ticket purchasers remember. If I were a day ticket purchaser, I would definitely not return after having to stand around in Gatehouse for 20 minutes looking for a chair for my friends and family to sit and eat on a Saturday (& Saturdays and holiday weekends are the peak of these crowds).

I agree, this is a very important point. The resort spends quite a lot of money on marketing to bring these new people to the mountain, and I am sure that management understands that they only get one chance at a first impression. No seats in the lodge, and super-double-secret beer ordering systems don't fly for these folks.

I often fail at my attempts to spend money at the resort, so I give up and go home. Imagine the impact on a 1st timer.

[HowieT2]

I agree, this is a very important point. The resort spends quite a lot of money on marketing to bring these new people to the mountain, and I am sure that management understands that they only get one chance at a first impression. No seats in the lodge, and super-double-secret beer ordering systems don't fly for these folks.

I often fail at my attempts to spend money at the resort, so I give up and go home. Imagine the impact on a 1st timer.

I think we've all been saying the same thing for last few seasons which is that there is a serious deficiency in cafeteria space during peak hours. It has gotten to the point that it is that way every weekend day, not just holidays. if I recall correctly the farmhouse was initially planned to have a cafeteria but that was scrapped. That was probably a mistake that needs to be addressed. There isnt even enough room in the GH for all the blazer kids.

[Brew Ski]

The "upgrade" last year to the Wunderbar, by adding Emily and staff was fabulous. It was easy to ski to, easy to get a beer quickly, the service was fast and efficient and the food is good. It is still much easier to get served at the Wunderbar than at CRP but since the secret got out, it is tough to get a quick beer.
As several of the previous posts mentioned, there is a lot of money left on the table by not being able to get "a quick beer". Most day ticket people, want to fly in a for a beer or two then head back out. Some will enjoy it enough to stay and have some food. I usually try to be a good mountain ambassador and talk to everyone of the chair lifts. This year, lots of "complaints" about how hard it is to get a beer. I get queasy when people mention that this isn't an issue at K-mart. I think we need them to spend their money and faster with Sugarbush.
So here are my simple suggestions to solve the basic issue of getting a quick beer at Sugarbush:
Add the beer stand back in the Gate house. Last year this got a lot of use, there usually was a short line, and customers get serviced in fair order which is very, very important! I'd not add it at the entry though, maybe move it to the room by the doors to the patio.
Add a keg of switchback to the corner in the CRP. Cash only. I bet the CRP doubles its beer sales. I understand that to support waitstaff you need customers sitting and ordering beers through wait staff, but it is much more organized and timely (usually) to just get in the "beer only" line. Again, it is a fair service model. People behind you are not getting their beer ahead of you which can happen at a crowed bar. People gt angry and just leave. Not good service model, there.
Spring time, they usually light up the grill outdoors and put a few taps out there. Maybe do the same on busy saturdays. Lots of people still use the patio, even on cold and snowy days during the busy times. I'll bet they drink beer too.
Certainly adding taps to the Mushroom would help. Create a "beer room". Not serving food, since you can go upstairs, will make getting a quick beer easy.
Seems like a tap of switchback somewhere near the base of North lynx chair and a couple picnic tables would get used extensively.
I'm not sure how to improve Wunderbar without making the place double in size? Love the views, love having ski videos on, and love skiing down the 200 ft after the lifts shut down. One of my favorite parts of the day.
That is it for now. I think these simple additions will significantly help the bottom line, improve the customer experience, and get more return visits.
Brew Ski

p.s. A tap at the exit from Slidebrook for the ride on the bus during late March and early April would also draw a net gain I'm guessing. I also was thinking about something like the girl in a golf cart that drives around the golf courses selling beer and hot dogs. A person driving a sled, randomly driving up and down lower Jester selling beer in cans would be very cool, and unique indeed.

[djd66]

I completely agree with Brew Ski - just make it easier for me to spend money + drink more beer. (I love the idea of more beer taps all over the mountain. ) GHL has become a crazy place to be ALL weekend. An alternative to keep in mind is Timbers. last weekend I went there with my wife, sat at the bar and had a nice burger. It cost the same as what i would have spent in the GHL minus the craziness of 100's people. I think tearing down the VH would be a huge mistake - unless they plan on replacing it with something else.

[Mt St Pipier]

I agree with the other posts here. Lunchtime has been unbearable, even at 11:30. Hasn't helped that Gatehouse went from a "no bags on the floor" policy to one that suggests it's better not to have bags on the floor. So now I'm cramped by the person in the chair behind me, as well as all the gear under my feet.

I also think I've drank more beer at home after skiing than I have on the mountain. Seems incredible / almost impossible to me, as there is nothing better than a couple of beers right after skiing. Used to hit Timbers for a quick couple and even that has been jammed up a few times.

I would support any methods to make beer more accessible on the mountain. Also would love a burrito shack next to the waffle hut, but now I'm clearly losing it...

[teleo]

At least we are all saving money by not hanging out at the mtn for F&B...

[Hawk]

Brew is Right. Beer stands are the anwser in Castlerock, upstaris at GH, Downstaris at VH, the Mushroom, Mt. Ellen Lodge, etc. Also how about a new structure at the top of Gate house lift that is like Allyns Lodge that serves lunch. That big open space up there is calling for it. Also put tables and chairs in the big open space downstairs at VH for Additional seating. Open the mushroom again. there are so many options.

I still like my super duper top secret beer stand with the special wink and hand shake. ;-)

[HowieT2]

or maybe a beer trough running continuously from the VH to the GH. Buy a season pass mug and just dip it in whenever. Kind of like willy wonka's chocolate river.

[southvillager]

While we're at it, I don't see why they couldn't have beer dispensing drip system on the chairlifts. Like gerbils use.

[Brew Ski]

Brew is Right. Beer stands are the anwser in Castlerock, upstaris at GH, Downstaris at VH, the Mushroom, Mt. Ellen Lodge, etc. Also how about a new structure at the top of Gate house lift that is like Allyns Lodge that serves lunch. That big open space up there is calling for it. Also put tables and chairs in the big open space downstairs at VH for Additional seating. Open the mushroom again. there are so many options.

I still like my super duper top secret beer stand with the special wink and hand shake. ;-)

If only I could get my wife to utter those first three words.....;-)
I agree that a waffle house/burrito house and a beer tap at the base of North Lynx lift would get plenty of use. OK, hot cocoa for the kids too. Even Disney serves beer in the park again. Also might serve the weddings at the top of Gate house lift during the summer months. I'd think a wedding party might enjoy a little picnic area up there during picture shoots while watching the sun set over Steins.

[Brew Ski]

Also, a Magic Carpet that goes from the base up to Valley house would get more people to the Mushroom, when Win re-opens it as a "pub with a view"
It isn't fun walking up the 100 ft while avoiding skiers in the flat light of 3:30-4pm. Just tuck it over near the Ski patrol area so it doesn't interfere with people coming down the Bravo lift line or skiing down from Valley house.

[Fourwide]

Does the SB Village offer an Après Ski options?

Chez Henri, still the best F/B option on the mountain.

[Benski]

If the mountain does add a Mexican option i think it should be in the valley house. One of the big issues with getting people into the valley house is with the exception of the wonderbar the vibe there is terrible and if people used it, then the vibe would be better and more people would be there.

[Hawk]

Does the SB Village offer an Après Ski options?

Yes, there is the Pine Tree Pub. AKA the PTP. It's more of a local/SB worker crowd but it is less crowded and the service is good. Chez Henri is good for a much more layed back scene and won't see any of the younger crowd if that is what your goal is.

[jwt]

might have been some sort of non-holiday record for crowds - they ran out of parking spaces by 10 AM Sat. Even North was jammed from what I heard. All lifts ( all year!) worked and lines moved - but uphill capacity ( and therefore downhill crowds) are an issue that we've rarely had before. Just goes to show you growth in business is almost as tough as slow cash flow to manage.

Snow was good, with cover everywhere - even woods softened up early and were very nice.

Busy is an understatement.

[Hawk]

Well when you sell a Gazillion tickets at $50 each you are going to get busniess. Pretty much everbody I talked to on the lifts was using one of those. i rode the singles line alot this weekend. ;-)

[shadyjay]

Yeah, Saturday was pretty busy, especially at Heaven's Gate. Was surprised to see how good Downspout still was even later in the day. Must've been some good snow that was made on that trail ;-)

[HowieT2]

skied mellon on saturday. the parking lots were full and lodge crowded but the lifts and trails were fine. There were a lot of people there for races.
sunday I was back at south and it was a typical march sunday crowd. I think saturday was just an unbelievably beautiful day to be out on the slopes.
I'd like a few more weeks of winter, though.

[Benski]

There were several cars parked on the street leading to the parking lot at mt Ellen. it might be time for more parking spaces.

[win]

We have a plan for more parking. We bought the land around the Warren House, so will work on getting that permitted for overflow parking once the lor behind CB-1 (the compressor building is full).

Saturday's crowd was different than the Holdiays. More cars per skier as a lot more people within an hour's drive saw the day and knew it was going to be a great day. On the Holidays there are more people staying on the mountain and taking the shuttle to the lots.

As you saw on Saturday when all trails are open and all lifts are running this mountain disperses people as well if not better than any in the East. Many guests are now using the webcam app to look at lift lines and plan accordingly.

[Joe Dirt]

Many guests are now using the webcam app to look at lift lines and plan accordingly.

No doubt! Dang! The new cams are awesome.

[HowieT2]

We have a plan for more parking. We bought the land around the Warren House, so will work on getting that permitted for overflow parking once the lor behind CB-1 (the compressor building is full).

Saturday's crowd was different than the Holdiays. More cars per skier as a lot more people within an hour's drive saw the day and knew it was going to be a great day. On the Holidays there are more people staying on the mountain and taking the shuttle to the lots.

As you saw on Saturday when all trails are open and all lifts are running this mountain disperses people as well if not better than any in the East. Many guests are now using the webcam app to look at lift lines and plan accordingly.

Does that property abut the 22 acre lot?
It would be great if vehicles could be diverted off the access road and into the warren house/22 acre lot before the intersection of the access road and inferno at the base.

[ThinkSno]

We have a plan for more parking. We bought the land around the Warren House, so will work on getting that permitted for overflow parking once the lor behind CB-1 (the compressor building is full).

Great. Just what the valley needs, more people, and more cars. Will the Green Mountain National Forest sign have to be relocated to where there's actually forest?

[Hawk]

Great. Just what the valley needs, more people, and more cars. Will the Green Mountain National Forest sign have to be relocated to where there's actually forest?

This is just great. So what would you suggest Thinksno? Turn people away? I hate the crowds also but it is a business. You need bodies to have a business grow and make money. I am not keen on the real estate plan at Sugarbush but it is what it is and I am willing to let that take it's course if it means that later they will upgrade lifts and snowmakeing. But this "not at my resort" kind of attitude is absure. Let me take a guess, you moved to Warren from NY or CT?

[Benski]

As you saw on Saturday when all trails are open and all lifts are running this mountain disperses people as well if not better than any in the East. Many guests are now using the webcam app to look at lift lines and plan accordingly.
this mountain does not have a close to equal distribution between mt Ellen and Lincoln peek. on Saturday the lines at ellen were half the length of the lines at Lincoln peek.

[Hawk]

this mountain does not have a close to equal distribution between mt Ellen and Lincoln peek. on Saturday the lines at ellen were half the length of the lines at Lincoln peek.

Ben, I do agree that the lines at Ellen were shorter but Half? I skied both but I wouldn't say half. The parking at both mountains was down the access rd at both places.

[southvillager]

Does that property abut the 22 acre lot?
It would be great if vehicles could be diverted off the access road and into the warren house/22 acre lot before the intersection of the access road and inferno at the base.

A quick check of google earth shows an existing trail or powerline ROW connecting the Warren House driveway to the employee lot on Inferno Rd. That would make a nice easy loop for a parking shuttle. Or better yet, relocate the VH double down to the Warren House, using it to lift people from these new lower parking lots up to the VH lodge. Cut a trail from Cat's Meow down under/over Inferno Rd to employee parking, then on down to the Warren House lot. Then install a new lift in place of the double. Simple! ;-)

[Hawk]

Ya, that is a great idea. We can also increase the vertical like Sugaloaf did when they installed that chair down to the condos. Wow we might even reach 3000' with that. :-) JK obviously.
I do like the idea of being able to sk down but South Village is a huge obsticle I think.

[ThinkSno]

This is just great. So what would you suggest Thinksno? Turn people away? I hate the crowds also but it is a business. You need bodies to have a business grow and make money. I am not keen on the real estate plan at Sugarbush but it is what it is and I am willing to let that take it's course if it means that later they will upgrade lifts and snowmakeing. But this "not at my resort" kind of attitude is absure. Let me take a guess, you moved to Warren from NY or CT?

I wasn't suggesting anything, just decrying possible deforestation in the name of "progress." But since you mention it, there are some successful ski areas which do limit the number of tickets sold per day to enhance the skier experience. Deer Park out west and Wachusett in MA come to mind-- and neither of these is hurting for business. If the lot does have to be built, I do like the idea of giving it lift access-- just like Sugarloaf, as someone suggested. A ski run down to it would also be great. At least this way it would give Sugarbush more than just another big parking lot.

To answer your bizarre question, I did not move to Warren from NY or CT. I've been in the MRV for over 25 years, and only want to see whats best for the area and the valley.

[HowieT2]

Unfortunately, nowadays, growing that business is just as much skiing related as it is to growing the bed base and the related amenities. I don't know to what degree, but to a certain degree, growth at Sugarbush and in town Waitsfield is also linked. I do think that it can be overdeveloped, but I don't think that plan is there yet. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I think the current development is in a decent area. It isn't a whole new area that has to be clear cut and have the forest destroyed. It's basically utilizing already cleared and semi developed land. I like it, but I know everyone has a different opinion.

As to the new parking lot, I think the space is necessary, but I don't know what type of development to that lot is necessary.

the rice brook is built on what was wasteland, so I dont know how anyone could possibly complain about it. and its not like it's a big development.

If the warren house is used for a connection to the 22 acre lot, it would do a lot to relieve traffic on the access road even without actually adding much to parking capacity.

also, there were more cars than skiers at mellon this weekend. plenty of families there to watch the kids race.

fwiw-had a lawyer in my office come to me yesterday thinking about taking his kids for easter vacation to jay. He is not a skier at all. the water park is a huge attraction to the mass market.

[Hawk]

Not a bizzare Question. You were not born in Warren Right? Where did you come from?

This is where I am coming from. I just got into an argument with a friend(orriginally from NY). He lived in the city for years and then moved up to Fayston and built a house many years back. He is now the biggest pita about developement and people in the valley. His feeling is that the Valley towns should stop all developement so that they can maintain the beauty. I have a huge problem with this. This is the USA right, and everybody has freedom. So why should my right to move up there and build be denied by local govenment? This is what I plan to do some day. So his feeling is that I've got mine, so screw you. That goes up my A$$ sideways. Everybody has the right to fulfill their dreams, even resort developers.

So that is my perspective. Sorry to come off like that.

Steve

[HowieT2]

I also have a problem with that. I don't have any problem with development, but I do have a problem with unorganized build anywhere willy nilly development. Especially in areas of natural forest, I do think it should be more regulated, and developed in an environmentally conscientious way, but not outright banned. That's one reason the Rice Brook development doesn't at all bother me. It is built in an area that is already open, will keep roughly the same amount of parking, and molds almost seamlessly with the base redevelopment project. They seem to be aesthetically pleasing and built of decent construction. When all built out, after phase E is done (if and when they get there), with the retail and residential done, it will add some much needed amenities and an extra bed base to help with this growth.

It has taken the better part of 7-8 years for Win and company to take care of the deferred maintenance and upgrade the base area. I am sure they would like to get some of that money back, and they still owe EB-5 investors. I think they have planned and executed this well. Hopefully it leads to on mountain upgrades when it nears completion.

I dont know where the idea came from that there is proposed building on pristine land??

Hawk-just because your friend is a nimby development opponent and was formerly from NY, does not mean that everyone from NY is that way. but I assume you know that.

speaking of EB-5, need to resolve an argument. I was talking about this with a friend, he maintained that the eb-5 investments are interest free loans. I disagreed, arguing that eb-5 simply rewards a foreign investor with a visa, but the terms of the investment are up to the parties and so unlikely to be interest free.

[Hawk]

Hawk-just because your friend is a nimby development opponent and was formerly from NY, does not mean that everyone from NY is that way. but I assume you know that.
.

Well at least in your case Howie. ;-)

[HowieT2]

Well at least in your case Howie. ;-)

well, i'm originally from jersey so....

[southvillager]

speaking of EB-5, need to resolve an argument. I was talking about this with a friend, he maintained that the eb-5 investments are interest free loans. I disagreed, arguing that eb-5 simply rewards a foreign investor with a visa, but the terms of the investment are up to the parties and so unlikely to be interest free.

An EB-5 investment is supposed to be an equity investment, not a loan. Buying a share in the project or company. However, there can be a workaround where the investors invest in a fund/company which then makes the loan at fixed rates to fund the project. Either way, the investor is in it for both the visa and the $$, I assume the interest rate is up to the individuals.

[Tin Woodsman]

An EB-5 investment is supposed to be an equity investment, not a loan. Buying a share in the project or company. However, there can be a workaround where the investors invest in a fund/company which then makes the loan at fixed rates to fund the project. Either way, the investor is in it for both the visa and the $$, I assume the interest rate is up to the individuals.

Correct. This is why Win continually refers to the EB-5 investments as being "at risk". If the investments area success, the EB-5 equity holders get some return on their investment. If not, they still get a visa. If it were debt, they'd be much more likely to get their money back given how finance/regulations work (much more complicated than that but should suffice for the purposes of this discussion).

Regardless, the fact that Win is even talking about the need (and specific plans!) to add more parking is a good thing, not just for SB for for the entire MRV. For better or for worse, the mountain's success is the Valley's success. More visitors, more employees and more dollars in town.

Now if we could only start shifting the mix of investmnt back up onto the mtn instead of on base area real estate. Then we'd have something. Imagine how much buzz some sort of major terrain enhancement would garner with the burgeoning 420's crowd. Or a major snowmaking investment with the families they are targetting to buy real estate. Strike while the iron is hot!

[Hawk]

Absolutely! I like it. Much more energy.

[southvillager]

Has the 4 20s crowd been obvious this season?

I think so. This is only anecdotal, but I have met quite a few on the lifts, and I see groups of people in their 20s in the Wonderbar. Still mostly an older crowd (like me) in there, but better than a few years ago.

I spoke with one young guy last weekend that had a 420 pass. He rented a condo for the season with his brother and some friends. He said the 420 pass was the reason he did it. I asked him where his group hangs out apres, or at night. He said they don't really go out, they have no money for it. When I was that age, and broke, I would hit Happy Hours. Or when in the valley I would stop for the free soup at the Bluetooth. We would get pitchers of beer to save cash, but we would go out. I don't see those options anymore.

[othripper]

Yeah, sunday night 99 cent dinners at the Tooth!! then dimeys at Gags!!! Yeah bring those back! oh wait, gags and the tooth are gone, just like the snow......

[SkiVideoGuy]

Does anyone think that the goal of selling $$$ units to upscale families and the 20 somethings goals are conflicting? That's 2 completely different markets. Saw some 20 somethings ripping it up at Mt. Ellen on Thursday carrying Nalgene bottles of wine or wine coolers. They were cursing up a storm and really ripping down some blues and when they stopped, drinking what was in the bottles. I have no real problem with that until they come over a rise and 9 year old Suzie is snowplowing down some terrain she's not really ready for but daddy wants her to go down and she gets creamed.

If I were marketing to 20 somethings, and it's a warm March day, there would be music playing at the lift loading stations, music at the Glen House and Allan's Lodges and maybe a band out on the CRP patio. Earlier discussions about kegs at various locations and maybe an outdoor grill at the Glen House and Allans. When I did hear music, it was 70's or 80's music. Probably not what they wanna hear.

If I were marketing to families with $$$ I might have some roving instructors riding lifts and taking runs with random families who look like they might benefit from some quick tips, might have more sherpa's carrying stuff up the steps or up to the Valley House. More tour guides. Tuning clinic at night for daddy who has jr in lessons. Maybe some sampling of food from a bunch of the local restaurants mid-week.

2 very different groups. Can they co-exist, probably but just something that popped into my head while watching people on Thursday at North. Which was fantastic by the way. 8-10" and it kept filling in all day. Nice and light.

[gostan]

Yeah, sunday night 99 cent dinners at the Tooth!! then dimeys at Gags!!! Yeah bring those back! oh wait, gags and the tooth are gone, just like the snow......Nice snow out there today with more on the horizon.

[win]

I think it is safe to say that all families with $$$ were once 20!

[win]

Here is some clarificaation of our use of the EB-5 program. The funds were used to partially fund all the base area development since 2006 but some funds were used for mountain improvements. I same partial because we invested our our equity and used modest bank debt as well. The payback to our EB-5 investors comes from the net sale proceeds of the relatively few remaining Clay Brook units and all net cash proceeds from Rice Brook. They have an equity interest in these cash flow streams. Thus, they bear the risk of us
being able to accomplish both. We feel a moral as well as a fiduciary responsiblilty to try to make that happen. Yes, the visa is important but so too is getting their principle back with possibly some return.

As far as mountain improvements, that will be our focus and the funding for this will some from operating profits. When we have a good year, our free cash will be directed to capital improvents. We have a long list and at the end of each season we see what we have available and set the priorities for the following year. I think it is safe to say that we will have more cash available this year so we will be doing more improvements, but it is premature to give you the details today. Suffice it to say that we will continue to improve our snowmaking system, keep our grooming equipment fresh, do road work and building improvement.

Over the past ten years we have made a big dent into years of deferred maintenance by the former owner and it is a priority to make sure that we don't slip back to the former state. In totall we have invested approximately $90 million in the resort since we purchased it. This includes Clay Brook so some of this investment has been returned as units were sold.

[Benski]

Were does replacing the valley house fit into those improvements. I have noticed it has been braking down more than in previous years, new triple would help with the increased crowds and a moddrern triple would open up the area at the top of the lift.

[Benski]

The valley house lift was built a year after the original castle rock chair which was replaced because of it's structural integrity and the valley house lift towers is rusting. replacing just the towers would make more sense than replacing the mechanical parts.

[HowieT2]

Even a revamp would be a cheaper alternative. Replacing all the parts basically makes it a new lift unless the structural integrity of the towers is compromised.

As was stated at the beginning of the thread, I am also interested in what plans they have to alleviate the stress in the base area from the increase in skiers. The lodges are getting crowded.

Either way, thanks for continuing to be a resource here for us Win. I can't wait to watch the continued evolution of this resort community.

They replaced the grips a few years ago. The lift is ancient. Even assuming it makes any sense to put more money into it, that wouldnt do anything to address 2 major issues. First, more uphill capacity which is necessary for peak periods and when the bravo is not running for whatever reason. Second, the terminus is dangerous.

[win]

Yes. It is on the list. Ideally, it would be good to relocate the top terminal to provide a better upload as well as open up the Valley Traverse and make it less congested and keep the snow fresher where it narrows down now. A heavier chair and top terminal placement can make it less prone to wind hold as the current lift is well protected from the wind until the final tower and terminal. I will likely keep the bottom terminal where it is as bring in over the lodge and down would create too much clutter there. A nunber of people love the double chair, but a replacement will likely be a fixed grip triple or quad. We only need that capacity on a few days of the years, but it would be a better backup for Bravo if it is down.

[Benski]

were would the new upper terminal be. i hope to be able to get to the same trails off the new lift.

[win]

That is yet to be determined. It will require work with the USFS and an engineering study, but the idea is to have it service the same trails.

[ThinkSno]

Not a bizzare Question. You were not born in Warren Right? Where did you come from?

Danville, PA