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View Full Version : SB Snowmaking has begun?



SkiVideoGuy
10-16-2012, 04:58 PM
I looked at the webcam today and thought I saw some white on the trees from some overflow at the top of Super Bravo/The Mall and also some by the top of Twist. Thought the snowmaking crew might be starting down Downspout. Any feet on the street so to speak who might be able to confirm?

teleo
10-16-2012, 05:59 PM
Ma nature. Snowliage photos on thier twitter and facebook feeds on the whats new page.

HowieT2
10-16-2012, 06:36 PM
Iirc the plan is to start 11/1 when the weather permits.

HowieT2
10-31-2012, 09:41 PM
I think here forward, if they get the right temps, they go.

Hawk
11-01-2012, 11:28 AM
i will let you know. headed up tonight.

win
11-01-2012, 04:19 PM
Looks like we can start Friday night. If not, surely Saturday. All the guns are set to go and the snowmaking team is here and waiting for the temperatures to fall. We might even see some light snow at the higher elevations this weekend.

SkiVideoGuy
11-02-2012, 11:57 AM
What's the plan Win? Can you give us the blow by blow so to speak? Inverness for the racers, I know. Jester, Downspout, Lower Jester, Traverse, Spring Fling? What's the top to bottom route you want to cover for the big open?

Thanks from PA.

win
11-02-2012, 01:27 PM
We will begin at both mountains today and/or tomorrow. At LP we will be focusing on Upper Jester to Downspout and will make as far down Downspout and Gondolier as temperatures allow. We want to do everything possible to be top to bottom by opening. The snow logics allow us to put out more water in these early marginal temperatures and for that reason they are set up nearer the bottom. After we get that we will likely go to Upper Organgrinder. If possible it would be nice to have a nice groomed run like Jester to Downspout and some fresh powder on Upper Organgrinder. After that we might move down Birdland, Murphy's or Lower Jester and Lower Organgrinder. But depending on the temperatures, we also might move over to the Gate House lto get some beginner/intermediate terrain open as soon as possible. At ME we will start on Inverness so GMVS can get training there as soon as possible and then start at the summit and move down Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser to the bottom as soon as possible On Inverness you will see snologics, two fan guns and our less effecient guns and towers all working. The plan is dynamic and changes according to the temperatures. And so we begin.

ReefBum
11-03-2012, 07:30 AM
We will begin at both mountains today and/or tomorrow. At LP we will be focusing on Upper Jester to Downspout and will make as far down Downspout and Gondolier as temperatures allow. We want to do everything possible to be top to bottom by opening. The snow logics allow us to put out more water in these early marginal temperatures and for that reason they are set up nearer the bottom. After we get that we will likely go to Upper Organgrinder. If possible it would be nice to have a nice groomed run like Jester to Downspout and some fresh powder on Upper Organgrinder. After that we might move down Birdland, Murphy's or Lower Jester and Lower Organgrinder. But depending on the temperatures, we also might move over to the Gate House lto get some beginner/intermediate terrain open as soon as possible. At ME we will start on Inverness so GMVS can get training there as soon as possible and then start at the summit and move down Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser to the bottom as soon as possible On Inverness you will see snologics, two fan guns and our less effecient guns and towers all working. The plan is dynamic and changes according to the temperatures. And so we begin.

That's great Win. And this is a nice sight!

106

win
11-03-2012, 09:26 AM
Yes, I am told there were a couple of inches at the top. Temps are still marginal at mid-mountain but they should be falling tonight and tomorrow so we can get more guns on.

HowieT2
11-03-2012, 11:32 AM
A sight for sore eyes.

villager
11-04-2012, 06:07 PM
It looks like Mother Nature is helping out too. It won't be long now!

HowieT2
11-04-2012, 07:24 PM
Thanks. Need the stoke. Still no power. Really thought I'd be back online by tonight.

shadyjay
11-05-2012, 12:19 PM
As of this morning, guns going on Jester, Allyn's, and Downspout from Bravo down to Domino Chute and around Heaven's Gate. It's looking incredibly white and more and more like winter up top. It is truly amazing to see a trail go from a work-road to [more like a] ski trail in just 2 days.

Hawk
11-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Shady, what's the prognosis for this week and maybe opening this weekend? What are they telling you at work? Saw you headed home Saturday morning with a big smile on your face. ;-)

shadyjay
11-05-2012, 12:47 PM
We still have to get down Downspout to Heaven's Gate... nothing more than a few inches on there right now - all natural. Everything is set up and ready to go down Downspout to the base so its just a matter of waiting on temps. The colder it is... the less air is used and thus more guns can be fired up. I believe the low was 18 up top last night / this morning and we were making some good snow. But there's still more work to do, even up on Jester - as far as repositioning guns.

As for prognosis... that's anyone's guess. We're at the mercy of mother nature and we all know how fickle she can be.

Hawk
11-05-2012, 02:20 PM
Hope it is soon Shady. K today and Sunday River just posted on facebook they are opening tomorrow. I am going somewhere this weekend. That is for sure.

gostan
11-05-2012, 03:30 PM
We still have to get down Downspout to Heaven's Gate... nothing more than a few inches on there right now - all natural. Everything is set up and ready to go down Downspout to the base so its just a matter of waiting on temps. The colder it is... the less air is used and thus more guns can be fired up. I believe the low was 18 up top last night / this morning and we were making some good snow. But there's still more work to do, even up on Jester - as far as repositioning guns.

As for prognosis... that's anyone's guess. We're at the mercy of mother nature and we all know how fickle she can be.Jay, some pictures would be more than welcomed!

shadyjay
11-06-2012, 12:31 AM
Just got one shot, taken at about 5am looking out from Allyn's Lodge, up towards Allyn's Traverse.

There's also some pics up on Sugarbush's web site under photo gallery.

gostan
11-06-2012, 05:09 AM
Just got one shot, taken at about 5am looking out from Allyn's Lodge, up towards Allyn's Traverse.

There's also some pics up on Sugarbush's web site under photo gallery.Jay, thx for the pic. Soon.

HowieT2
11-06-2012, 11:53 AM
Shady, what's the prognosis for this week and maybe opening this weekend? What are they telling you at work? Saw you headed home Saturday morning with a big smile on your face. ;-)


r u serious? i think they are shooting for the 17th.

temperatures do not look cooperative from saturday through next week.

Hawk
11-06-2012, 12:05 PM
Well Howie......they have those supa-dupa high tech fangled wicked awsome new guns that blow snow in all kinds of temps. That coupled with the new snow we got this week and more on the way for tomorrow. I thought Geeze maybe they would open. I mean Sunday River and Killington are open and will be top to bottom by tomorrow is seems. Others are preparing to open. So yes serious as hell. ;-)

vonski
11-06-2012, 12:36 PM
Just checked webcam and they are blasting the guns at the base of Bravo lift!!! That is a good sign!! of some type of commitment to get down to the base for sure. Unless there is a rail jam planned!!!!

cmoore
11-06-2012, 12:46 PM
Jester

SkiVideoGuy
11-06-2012, 03:03 PM
Webcam request: Please move that thing around a bit this year. Today for example. What we all want to see if those 4 SnoLogic guns firing at the base. USE THE ZOOM

Benski
11-06-2012, 03:34 PM
can we have updates on snow making is going on.

shadyjay
11-07-2012, 07:52 AM
Driving back from town yesterday, the guns were lit up all the way to the bottom of Heaven's Gate.... not sure about in between there and Coffee Run. Guess I'll find out Friday.

boze
11-07-2012, 10:53 AM
I count min 7 guns blasting away at base btwn Valley dbl abd Bravo, plus others further up the mtn. Stoked.

noski
11-07-2012, 01:25 PM
I count min 7 guns blasting away at base btwn Valley dbl abd Bravo, plus others further up the mtn. Stoked.

I saw snowmaking at Mt. Ellen this morning on my ride down Bragg Hill.

Treeskier
11-08-2012, 08:47 AM
Nice report! Keep it up!

Hawk
11-08-2012, 09:30 AM
A solid week of blowing and they haven't even covered 1 trail top to bottom. Even with the new guns. BUY the new compressors and upgrade the pipe going up the mountain! At least on one run.

HowieT2
11-08-2012, 11:50 AM
I've got a little bit of an update today, but nothing super spectacular. Got out to check on conditions again at around 2 today. Went to Lincoln Peak first. Same story as yesterday except they lit up an extra gun or two behind the VH Lodge near the bottom of the VH Double. You can see the amount of snow they made compared to yesterday in the pic below. Forecast was calling for temps at 38 today, but it never got above 30 at the base. As I drove away from the mountain it appeared that they were making snow on Downspout to connect to the HG Triple. I couldn't see it from the base because its just behind the ridge line. You'll see some snow in the foreground on the concrete from where a ramp was set for some urban jibbing earlier in the day.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/Brenton_Archut/Sugarbush%2011-7-12/C5EC49A0-E69F-498F-A2C3-295053B0CD0C-6179-000005B3B1BB7090.jpg

Headed over to Mount Ellen afterward. Base temp was about the same. Guns still going on Inverness, but I couldn't see any additional snowmaking. Coverage was still spotty in some areas, but they definitely made some good progress overnight. It looks like there aren't many snow guns on in the picture below, but it's the flat light. It is still t2b on Inverness. The second picture is on Inverness and shows two men earning their turns. You can see them below the snow mobile that was being used by the snowmaking crew.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/Brenton_Archut/Sugarbush%2011-7-12/46F32111-84F9-4A1C-869B-779C3CF259B7-6179-000005B39F0B83B9.jpg

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/Brenton_Archut/Sugarbush%2011-7-12/D5066C95-9C0A-43A2-9FD5-1A74CE7BFF99-6179-000005B38B31145B.jpg

I'll try to get some pictures at SB tomorrow, but I'll be heading down to Killington for some lift served turns, so don't be disappointed if I can't make it happen.

keep the updates coming. they are great.

note the 2 idle guns by the super bravo.

fwiw-i'm going on 11 days without power and could really use to ski, soon.

Tin Woodsman
11-08-2012, 05:28 PM
Blowing snow behind the VH lodge has to mean that the plan is to come down Coffee Run from Lower Downspout if/when they get there.

But, yeah, buy the new compressors and on-mountain pipe, please. This is agonizingly slow.

Now Stowe, Okemo, and the Loaf opening up, either to the public or at least for passholders.

ducky
11-08-2012, 05:51 PM
Stowe opening Saturday.

Benski
11-08-2012, 06:10 PM
It might be to late to open before November 17 the staff are not ready to operate the mountain.

Hawk
11-09-2012, 08:36 AM
As for opening early and snowmaking, I am a huge proponent of early openings, but I also understand that sometimes it isn't their niche market. An opening of Nov 17 is definitely acceptable and is in the ballpark of other mountains who aren't in the extreme early season game like Killington or Sunday River. However, I would assume that if they had as much time as they did with around the clock temps, they should be able to open T2B when they actually open. I think it was two years ago when they had 8 trails open at the top and were still downloading. That shouldn't be necessary. Otherwise, I am perfectly happy with the later opening date. Lets be honest, mid November is not that late of an opening. I think that sometimes our jonesing gets the best of our reasoning.

It's all a matter of perception. If you are used to the start of the Ski season being in mid Nov. then that is early. I have skied in October for most of my years. I count on it. No crowds, usually it is soft and bumpy and all my regular hard core friends are there. There are no masses of beginner skiers crowding the slopes and the fun spills into the après just like late season. I enjoy it greatly. I have t get it into my thick head that it will never happen here. They just don't get it/understand it. So I go to SR and ski with my old friends every year and spend the money. This weekend they will have 3 separate top t bottom runs and 2 lifts. The report from my peeps is that rock skis are not required and it is like mid-winter. That is my perception. ;-)
Now people from this site will always throw out the company line about “it doesn’t make financial sense” or “I don’t like the early season white ribbon of death” but they just don’t understand. There is a benefit. It’s that perception thing. When considering a place to make home, the snow making thing is huge factor to the grand majority of skiers. The perception is the truth here in that we don’t make snow very well. I know, I know, you hear this rant from me every year. Oh well. See you and a couple of weeks. Hawk out! 

gostan
11-09-2012, 09:09 AM
I think that I am going to take Hawk's advice and just look up last years November "when is Sugarbush going to open" and snowmaking threads. I really appreciate all of the passion and understand why he and others want to get out there now. Myself, I have similar withdrawal symptoms, but i have no problem waiting for Thanksgiving weekend to ski. And, I sort of equate this whole early season snowmaking thing to when our children are young and some parent brags that his or her child is reading at a level 3 or 4 grades above where he or she should be. By the time winter really sets in, Sugarbush will have plenty of terrain open to equal or better The Killington or Sunday River experience. IMO, it all equals out over time... At least I hope it does. Meanwhile, I am down here in Florida where daytime temps are about 70 degrees during the day and low 60's at night. Going for a run on the beach now. Ski ya on the 17th or Thanksgiving or whenever SB opens.

HowieT2
11-09-2012, 09:44 AM
It's all a matter of perception. If you are used to the start of the Ski season being in mid Nov. then that is early. I have skied in October for most of my years. I count on it. No crowds, usually it is soft and bumpy and all my regular hard core friends are there. There are no masses of beginner skiers crowding the slopes and the fun spills into the après just like late season. I enjoy it greatly. I have t get it into my thick head that it will never happen here. They just don't get it/understand it. So I go to SR and ski with my old friends every year and spend the money. This weekend they will have 3 separate top t bottom runs and 2 lifts. The report from my peeps is that rock skis are not required and it is like mid-winter. That is my perception. ;-)
Now people from this site will always throw out the company line about “it doesn’t make financial sense” or “I don’t like the early season white ribbon of death” but they just don’t understand. There is a benefit. It’s that perception thing. When considering a place to make home, the snow making thing is huge factor to the grand majority of skiers. The perception is the truth here in that we don’t make snow very well. I know, I know, you hear this rant from me every year. Oh well. See you and a couple of weeks. Hawk out! 

it is all perception. I have to go to my inlaws for thanksgiving so skiing wouldnt start for me until december anyway. and who wouldnt want that tradeoff?

Treeskier
11-09-2012, 11:18 AM
I'm with Hawk. We should be top to bottom at this point. Sunday River, Killington, Stowe and I suspect Stratton are all already top to bottom. We should rent the compressors and buy the power to make it so! Also blowing snow on Inverness for GMVS in my mind is penny wise and pound foolish. North summit is our coldest spot. Let them race on Elbow so if we get skunked we can open the summit of North to be open and once it is top to bottom then move to Inverness. Innverness is too low and too big to use so much of Norths resources so early in the season.

As for skiing early. I've already got a day in and plan to ski Monday some were....spending additional $ to do so. We just had the "window" to blow enough snow that if weather goes south we still should have enough to open for Thanksgiving. If we did not put down enough and we screw up Thanksgivingl trying to sell full season use ski condos only gets harder.

Let it snow!

HowieT2
11-09-2012, 11:56 AM
I'm with Hawk. We should be top to bottom at this point. Sunday River, Killington, Stowe and I suspect Stratton are all already top to bottom. We should rent the compressors and buy the power to make it so! Also blowing snow on Inverness for GMVS in my mind is penny wise and pound foolish. North summit is our coldest spot. Let them race on Elbow so if we get skunked we can open the summit of North to be open and once it is top to bottom then move to Inverness. Innverness is too low and too big to use so much of Norths resources so early in the season.

As for skiing early. I've already got a day in and plan to ski Monday some were....spending additional $ to do so. We just had the "window" to blow enough snow that if weather goes south we still should have enough to open for Thanksgiving. If we did not put down enough and we screw up Thanksgivingl trying to sell full season use ski condos only gets harder.

Let it snow!

I should play the foil just to keep up our annual tradition, but I'm too tired and frankly a bit punchy. I was good through the first week of no electricity, but I've had enough. anyway, that's all I got. hope to see you all soon. feel free to debate the snowmaking issue until north lynx is open.

gostan
11-09-2012, 12:57 PM
I'm with Hawk. We should be top to bottom at this point. Sunday River, Killington, Stowe and I suspect Stratton are all already top to bottom. We should rent the compressors and buy the power to make it so! Also blowing snow on Inverness for GMVS in my mind is penny wise and pound foolish. North summit is our coldest spot. Let them race on Elbow so if we get skunked we can open the summit of North to be open and once it is top to bottom then move to Inverness. Innverness is too low and too big to use so much of Norths resources so early in the season.

As for skiing early. I've already got a day in and plan to ski Monday some were....spending additional $ to do so. We just had the "window" to blow enough snow that if weather goes south we still should have enough to open for Thanksgiving. If we did not put down enough and we screw up Thanksgivingl trying to sell full season use ski condos only gets harder.

Let it snow!Tree, keep spending the $$ @ Killington for October/November early season skiing. It is definitely a far less expensive alternative to selling & relocating to a different VT mountain resort that has made the economic investment to allow faster fuller & more available top to bottom snowmaking early season & throughout. It is just not going to happen in the near future with the present ownership group. But, I accepted that before I made the decision to come back to SB 3 seasons ago. Pray for lots of snow. And have a great ski day Monday!

southvillager
11-09-2012, 04:26 PM
The lack of quality early skiing has a large impact on the Valley. Everything in the Valley including inns, restaurants, retailers, and service businesses are at a competitive disadvantage compared to counterparts at Killington, Sunday River, etc. Real estate values are lower in the Valley. Restaurants and inns are selling on the cheap if they can sell at all. Look at Eagan's, the old Egan's, Miguels, the Warren Tavern, the White Horse Inn all sitting empty. These places sit front and center in the valley, in ideal locations, visitors and investors must wonder what it all means.

I think the lack of early season quality skiing is a self fulfilling prophecy on the part of the resort. The assumption may be that since they only sell a certain number of season passes, and very few daily lift tickets for November, the snowmaking and operational expense can't be justified. The decision to go early is a business decision that cannot be modeled on a spreadsheet. It is more like "build it (cross your fingers) and they will come". Adding additional features or quality improvements to an existing product is hard to justify purely on economics.

Sugarbush made the leap before. There was success building and selling very high quality, high priced real estate at Claybrook, far more expensive than the Valley's RE sales history would justify. They built it, and the market came, and bought. Maybe the light will go on, and they will take a similar leap of faith required to go with high quality early season snowmaking and skiing.

That said, I love Sugarbush, I like all the recent changes, and it is clear that they are pouring a lot of money in at a steady pace. And my guess is that in time we will have competitive early season skiing. But it has been a long wait.

win
11-09-2012, 04:29 PM
Appreciate the thoughts and advice, but our goal is not to be the first open. It is to open by the 17th top to bottom and to be one of the last standing as we are most years. We have really good cover on Jester and Downspout and since it is too warm today before Allyn's Lodge to make snow we are on Upper Grinder until the temperatures warm up late tomorrow. They will stay too warm for any snowmaking for a couple of days. If we get the temps after Tuesday night we will be focused on getting top to bottom by the 17th. We likely need 36-48 hours to complete the path from Heaven's Gate down across Coffee Run. We have already made snow around Valley House and Coffee Run when we had cold enough temps a couple of days ago.

As far at ME, since we do not open there until December, we focus on getting GMVS the hill space they prefer for race training. This is huge acreage and takes an enormous amount of water to cover sufficiently. We started earlier at ME this year for GMVS and once Inverness is done, we will do our normal plan of working top bottom and in the park when cold enough so that by opening day there we have as much terrain as possible covered. The forecast is looking much better than last year.

HowieT2
11-10-2012, 09:05 AM
The lack of quality early skiing has a large impact on the Valley. Everything in the Valley including inns, restaurants, retailers, and service businesses are at a competitive disadvantage compared to counterparts at Killington, Sunday River, etc. Real estate values are lower in the Valley. Restaurants and inns are selling on the cheap if they can sell at all. Look at Eagan's, the old Egan's, Miguels, the Warren Tavern, the White Horse Inn all sitting empty. These places sit front and center in the valley, in ideal locations, visitors and investors must wonder what it all means.

I think the lack of early season quality skiing is a self fulfilling prophecy on the part of the resort. The assumption may be that since they only sell a certain number of season passes, and very few daily lift tickets for November, the snowmaking and operational expense can't be justified. The decision to go early is a business decision that cannot be modeled on a spreadsheet. It is more like "build it (cross your fingers) and they will come". Adding additional features or quality improvements to an existing product is hard to justify purely on economics.

Sugarbush made the leap before. There was success building and selling very high quality, high priced real estate at Claybrook, far more expensive than the Valley's RE sales history would justify. They built it, and the market came, and bought. Maybe the light will go on, and they will take a similar leap of faith required to go with high quality early season snowmaking and skiing.

That said, I love Sugarbush, I like all the recent changes, and it is clear that they are pouring a lot of money in at a steady pace. And my guess is that in time we will have competitive early season skiing. But it has been a long wait.

Got power back! Yay! Hot shower in my own bathroom and I'm back in business.

Putting aside the snowmaking issue, there is something interesting about what you pointed out. This may warrant a separate thread (miss the days of fighying over thread categorization). There have been a number of valley businesses that closed over the past 5 years, but I don't think it had anything to do with less overall customers in the valley and certainly not because the Mtn has had slow starts due to snowmaking issues. Before last season, and that's when all these places went under, the number of skier visits rose consistently and significantly during that time period. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means there were actually an increasing number of potential customers for these businesses. Therefore their failure must be attributable to factors other than declining numbers of customers in the valley overall. And I'm pretty confident that non winter visitors to the valley had been increasing during this time as well.

My theory is that these businesses closed and weren't replaced because of a variety of reasons, none of which has anything to do with sb attracting more customers. In no apparent order, here's my factors. Increased competition from on Mtn venues, timbers and crp. BC (before Claybrook) there was nothing on Mtn, so all the business they're doing has to come from somewhere. Other new competitors, such as green cup, mint, mad taco, histel tavere, etc.
The general economic weakness. This really has 3 components, skiers cutting back on dining spending, business difficulty in getting credit and lack of confidence to start a new business ( or continue with a struggling one).
And of course, individual reasons like leases, personal etc.

Interested to hear what you guys think.

southvillager
11-10-2012, 10:45 AM
Got power back! Yay! Hot shower in my own bathroom and I'm back in business.

Putting aside the snowmaking issue, there is something interesting about what you pointed out. This may warrant a separate thread (miss the days of fighying over thread categorization). There have been a number of valley businesses that closed over the past 5 years, but I don't think it had anything to do with less overall customers in the valley and certainly not because the Mtn has had slow starts due to snowmaking issues. Before last season, and that's when all these places went under, the number of skier visits rose consistently and significantly during that time period. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means there were actually an increasing number of potential customers for these businesses. Therefore their failure must be attributable to factors other than declining numbers of customers in the valley overall. And I'm pretty confident that non winter visitors to the valley had been increasing during this time as well.
.

Well after some quick Googling, it seems like Sugarbush Skier Visits are roughly the same as Stowe Skier Visits, and there are many, many more businesses in Stowe. And Stowe also does not offer much early skiing. So my theory is dead wrong. Maybe I have it backwards, maybe there isn't enough critical mass of touristy businesses in the Valley to attract visitors to sustain other touristy businesses. Like a mall without enough tenants, the Valley hospitality businesses suffer from a lack of traffic overall.

No matter how you slice it, the Valley restaurants and inns are in tough shape. I mentioned the Whitehorse and the old Egan's as sitting vacant, but there are also many other inns for sale. I guess I'm just a worrier, but I would like the Valley to be a bit more successful.

win
11-10-2012, 12:57 PM
This is not a quick answer or necessarily an easy answer. Skier visits have increased since we purchased Sugarbush after declining for a number of years in the finals ASC years. And summer visits have increased significantly. Last year we had 30 of our own weddings and others like The Skinner Barn, Lareau Farm, Round Barn etc had successful wedding seasons too. The loss of the horse show over a decade ago was a huge blow to the valley and clearly impacted Valley businesses. Some businesses like Chez Henri has been around for nearly 50 years. They operate only in the winter and that seems like a good strategy for them. The Common Man in on its fourth ownership since opening in the Masacara Mountain days and each owner has been able to run it successfully. They continue to provide good food and service. The Pitcher Inn opened nearly fifteen years ago and has been successful. The new owners of the Den seem to be doing well. Claudia at The Big Picture has been very creative in what she has created there. I think the new Peasant restaurant on Bridge Street will be a success. Lili and I have eaten there and it was great. And, The Mint is back after the being closed by Irene. Some restaurants have not succeeded for a variety of reasons. Some because owners chose a different lifestyle and some because the quality of the experience deteriorated and they lost the customer base. Strategically at Sugarbush we do not want to be everything, and we want to support the entire Valley and see all businesses do well. All lodges and restaurants are listed on our website, and we like our guests to experience what the Valley offers. Our new Real Estate development when complete will link our new base village with the original Sugarbush Village and with that ease of flow back and forth all year around and more beds on the mountain we think that others will see business opportunity in what used to be a very vibrant village in the early days of Sugarbush.

HowieT2
11-10-2012, 04:51 PM
Well after some quick Googling, it seems like Sugarbush Skier Visits are roughly the same as Stowe Skier Visits, and there are many, many more businesses in Stowe. And Stowe also does not offer much early skiing. So my theory is dead wrong. Maybe I have it backwards, maybe there isn't enough critical mass of touristy businesses in the Valley to attract visitors to sustain other touristy businesses. Like a mall without enough tenants, the Valley hospitality businesses suffer from a lack of traffic overall.

No matter how you slice it, the Valley restaurants and inns are in tough shape. I mentioned the Whitehorse and the old Egan's as sitting vacant, but there are also many other inns for sale. I guess I'm just a worrier, but I would like the Valley to be a bit more successful.

I'm just guessing but maybe stowes demographic has more disposable income??? Or maybe they get more non skier visits?
Are there skier visits really the same?
I think the businesses that failed had their own individual issues. I know Egans had issues after changing chefs. Dont know about the warren house in the access road since I never went there, which says something in and of itself. I was jonesing for Mexican and excited about Miguel's but it was not good and way overpriced.

gostan
11-10-2012, 06:32 PM
As year round destinations Stowe just offers many more options than MRV does. In fact, I would bet that Stowe is as busy or busier in the summer as it is in the summer. The paved bike/rollerblading/walking/running trail from Topnotch to the town is a fabulous draw for families. Sunday concerts at Trapp and a real (for VT) town with much more shopping than there is in MRV, etc., are all something to consider when deciding where to spend $$$ & recreation time. Increased biz to the valley from weddings is definitely helpful to all businesses on the valley, but until there is more to draw more folks other than wedding guests to the valley year round (as there is at Stowe), then existing businesses will continue to struggle. I sense that the combination of the capital investment required to start or purchase a restaurant or retail operation, along with the resulting tax bills, along with such a short limited season, all make the financial equation and the necessary commitment in MRV more than a simple challenge. More power to those that persevere. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the ambience here, but there was definitely some compelling reasons why I chose to spend a lot of time @ Stowe years ago.

HowieT2
11-11-2012, 07:33 AM
As year round destinations Stowe just offers many more options than MRV does. In fact, I would bet that Stowe is as busy or busier in the summer as it is in the summer. The paved bike/rollerblading/walking/running trail from Topnotch to the town is a fabulous draw for families. Sunday concerts at Trapp and a real (for VT) town with much more shopping than there is in MRV, etc., are all something to consider when deciding where to spend $$$ & recreation time. Increased biz to the valley from weddings is definitely helpful to all businesses on the valley, but until there is more to draw more folks other than wedding guests to the valley year round (as there is at Stowe), then existing businesses will continue to struggle. I sense that the combination of the capital investment required to start or purchase a restaurant or retail operation, along with the resulting tax bills, along with such a short limited season, all make the financial equation and the necessary commitment in MRV more than a simple challenge. More power to those that persevere. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the ambience here, but there was definitely some compelling reasons why I chose to spend a lot of time @ Stowe years ago.

Agreed. The rec path is a huge draw. the mad river path needs to be completed. I would argue that it's so important, the town should take the land by imminent domain from those private landowners who won't grant an easement. I realize that's a little harsh, but the mad river is an awesome summer attraction and needs to be accesible.

Jacksun
11-11-2012, 08:35 AM
Surprised no one mentioned the bad economy over the past few years. Certainly while skiers probably make up a more affluent crowd, even they've been affected. So it might mean fewer meals out, more cooking in, fewer purchases at MRV shops, more back home at discount stores etc.

Aside from that, the very things that my family loves about MRV I think negatively impact it as a big economic mecca: MRV is the anti-Killington and anti-Stowe - no ugly wide business oriented access road, no wealth oriented see-and-be-seen show off culture. Not being those things is one of the reasons why we love MRV and purchased a vacation home in it (of course the best skiing in the Northeast may have had something to do with it).

On the other hand, what Stowe has, which MRV lacks, is a true walkable village center, with lots of stores and restaurants. Warren Village, while quaint, is tiny, with few businesses to attract people. Irasville is spread out along Rt. 100 and not very walkable. Waitsfield proper is closer to the ideal, but does not have a critical mass of shops and frankly does not have the New Englandy ambiance of Stow. I believe that a nice commercial center creates foor traffic and which I think generates more traffic. For these reasons I think it's got to be hard for a new business to establish itself and build a steady customer base.

Thing is, I'm not advocating massive MRV growth, as I said, the way it is is a huge draw for me. Others may feel differently. I do wish some of the empty businesses would return - Warren House, Egan's, the old Tex Mex place across from Bridges on the Access Road (can't remember the name). I think there could be a nice balance in MRV of more businesses without it turning into K or S.

One last comment: if a new business or restaurant is going to open, then be good! We were excited when Miguel's replaced the Phoenix (although sorry to lose the Phoenix), especially having eaten and enjoyed the Stowe restaurant many times in the past. Well, it was beyond awful, bad food, horrendous service, unclean and unappealing. We gave it three tries and saw minimal improvement and finally crossed it off our list. Whatever the business, provide good value for the price and be good to your customers, and you will likely make it.

klop
11-11-2012, 09:50 AM
I realize Stowe was an established resort town years ago, but I wonder what effect Ben and Jerry's (VT #1 tourist attraction) has had on it's continued sustainability. Have you been on route 100 in Stowe on a summer or fall weekend? Yikes! There has to be a happy medium.

ducky
11-12-2012, 06:58 AM
Stowe has a solid marketing advantage in the fact that the Resort and Town have the same name - much easier to sell one brand image. This hurts the MRV as does it's geographical remoteness and not having a highway exit identifying it, despite 5 exits being available (3,4,5,9,10). Additionally, as there are already so many established businesses in Stowe, they have a strong chamber of commerce with a much larger revenue base, say 10x ours. This in turn affords a huge marketing budget. Additionally, there are many more destination events in Stowe and they are building on this with new events like Lacrosse week, the British invasion, etc. Stowe even markets in EU and as such sees quite a large number of visitors from EU, most significantly from the UK.

That said, I prefer living in the MRV. In Stowe, you can buy a pair of shoes for $800. In the MRV, not so much, to quote Borat. That I like. The way of life is friendlier here, less pressure. As Win said, some of the empty hotels and restaurants may have been due to lifestyle choices by their owners.

Hawk
11-12-2012, 08:12 AM
Howie I think that the skier visits are not the determning factor. Stowe/Waterbury has a much large year round population base that can sustain more businesses. Stowe also has this reputation for being the big dog of the north. I don't know what it is but people just like to day trip there.

HowieT2
11-12-2012, 09:56 AM
Howie I think that the skier visits are not the determning factor. Stowe/Waterbury has a much large year round population base that can sustain more businesses. Stowe also has this reputation for being the big dog of the north. I don't know what it is but people just like to day trip there.

I dont disagree. I was just pointing out that the valley businesses that closed, did so during a time of increasing visitors both during the ski season and the rest of the year. so the failures must be attributable to factors other than snowmaking issues at the mtn. SB is doing its job as the growth engine for the valley

I, for one, dont want the MRV to become stowe. I like that there are no traffic lights or mcdonalds. I like being able to tell my fancy friends from LI that if they want to come, come for the outdoor activities because there is no shopping. I cringe when I visit the berkshires. That being said, growth is good when done the right way.
The two biggest ways to increase the attractiveness of SB and the mrv are to complete the lp village so the base is connected to sb village and there is a contiguous critical mass of shops and restaurants at the base, and to complete the mad path. The latter seems to have taken a step back since irene. having the section between bridge street and tremblay closed is a killer.
in order of priorities, I think the snowmaking issue is important but comes after the lp village and then something to address the overcrowding of the GH lodge. fwiw-i dont know what the answer to that is, expanding the GH, replacing the VH, new mid mtn or summit lodge, but I think it was a mistake not to have built a cafeteria in the Farmhouse or schoolhouse when they had the chance.

Hawk
11-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Sugarbush is a business. People like to grow their business. The nice base area and the amenities are all fine and I love what they have done. But this only goes so far and I think we have seen the limit on growth associated with these improvements. The amount of new people at the Bush hasn't grown that much. Plain and simple people want no lines and good snowmaking. That is what they come for. Once you get the reputation for blowing snow and have consistant good conditions people will come because they can depend on it. I mean the hard core only make up less than 5% of all skiers. We are not going to grow our numbers/Profit on hard core skiers. Nor are we going to grow our numbers with the Claybrook/Rice Brook crowd either. It's the regular crowd that like to ski the Groomy goom on Snow Ball and Elbow that grow the business. And they expect recovery from adverse weather. I mean in days not weeks and progressive good coverage.

Hey I am invested up here and want/need them to succeed. I have seen how this works at other areas and know the formula. We will always have our Pow days and great woods. That is why I came here. But it also scares the hell our of me to wonder what will happen if we get a few years in a row of really bad winter. Bad meaning no snow. With our current system we will be just plain SH*# out of luck. :(

HowieT2
11-12-2012, 10:54 AM
Sugarbush is a business. People like to grow their business. The nice base area and the amenities are all fine and I love what they have done. But this only goes so far and I think we have seen the limit on growth associated with these improvements. The amount of new people at the Bush hasn't grown that much. Plain and simple people want no lines and good snowmaking. That is what they come for. Once you get the reputation for blowing snow and have consistant good conditions people will come because they can depend on it. I mean the hard core only make up less than 5% of all skiers. We are not going to grow our numbers/Profit on hard core skiers. Nor are we going to grow our numbers with the Claybrook/Rice Brook crowd either. It's the regular crowd that like to ski the Groomy goom on Snow Ball and Elbow that grow the business. And they expect recovery from adverse weather. I mean in days not weeks and progressive good coverage.

Hey I am invested up here and want/need them to succeed. I have seen how this works at other areas and know the formula. We will always have our Pow days and great woods. That is why I came here. But it also scares the hell our of me to wonder what will happen if we get a few years in a row of really bad winter. Bad meaning no snow. With our current system we will be just plain SH*# out of luck. :(

not for 'nothing, but we had about as bad a year snow wise last year as we are likely to see, and SB was the first, and for a long time only, mtn 100% open. Again, I'd like to see a phalanx of fan guns blanketing the base as much as you (well maybe not quite as much as you), I just think the LP village is of greater priority. Like you said, hard core skiers make up maybe 5% of the market. the other 95% is not looking to go skiing before christmas. and when they decide on their ski vacation destinations, they look at other things besides the on mtn experience, like what can the wife do when she's not skiing, is there a place to walk around and get a bite to eat, etc. look at the ski magazine resort rankings. they have little to do with whether the factors that us hard core skiers consider.
I dont have hard numbers, but it seemed to me judging by the parking lot and cafeteria traffic, that skier visits have been increasing significantly over the past 5-6 seasons.

Hawk
11-12-2012, 11:26 AM
not for 'nothing, but we had about as bad a year snow wise last year as we are likely to see, and SB was the first, and for a long time only, mtn 100% open. Again, I'd like to see a phalanx of fan guns blanketing the base as much as you (well maybe not quite as much as you), I just think the LP village is of greater priority. Like you said, hard core skiers make up maybe 5% of the market. the other 95% is not looking to go skiing before christmas. and when they decide on their ski vacation destinations, they look at other things besides the on mtn experience, like what can the wife do when she's not skiing, is there a place to walk around and get a bite to eat, etc. look at the ski magazine resort rankings. they have little to do with whether the factors that us hard core skiers consider.
I dont have hard numbers, but it seemed to me judging by the parking lot and cafeteria traffic, that skier visits have been increasing significantly over the past 5-6 seasons.

I understand where you coming from Howie. I really do. But I do disagree with you on a coulpe of things. First, Last year was not that bad of a year historically speaking. I remember a year in the 80's that we had about 10 trails open in February. There have actually been a few years like that and also years we have had many big warms ups. I will conceed the importance of the early opening but will not understate the importance of quick recovery after a warmup or need for snow making when the year starts out lean on snow and cold.

I think that skier visits may have been up mildly over the last 5 years but not that much. I still haven't seen any lift lines to speak of exept mornings on holiday weekends. Basically it has been pretty much the same for the last 10 or 12 years or whenever Les Otten upgraded the lifts as far as I can tell.

I am telling you Mother Nature is going to rail on us. It's only a matter of time. We have been way lucky. I am not looking for Killington or Sunday River. Just a modest upgrade with a new compressor plant, new pipe up the Main snow making runs like OG , Fling, Downspout, Jester, etc. and the usual runs at Ellen. No new terrain, just what we already use. Something solid and dependable. You don't have to be a genius to understand what we have is severly deficient. Even with the new guns we don't have enough air pressure to blow one continuous run from top to bottom. We have to blow segments to get it done.

HowieT2
11-12-2012, 12:00 PM
I understand where you coming from Howie. I really do. But I do disagree with you on a coulpe of things. First, Last year was not that bad of a year historically speaking. I remember a year in the 80's that we had about 10 trails open in February. There have actually been a few years like that and also years we have had many big warms ups. I will conceed the importance of the early opening but will not understate the importance of quick recovery after a warmup or need for snow making when the year starts out lean on snow and cold.

I think that skier visits may have been up mildly over the last 5 years but not that much. I still haven't seen any lift lines to speak of exept mornings on holiday weekends. Basically it has been pretty much the same for the last 10 or 12 years or whenever Les Otten upgraded the lifts as far as I can tell.

I am telling you Mother Nature is going to rail on us. It's only a matter of time. We have been way lucky. I am not looking for Killington or Sunday River. Just a modest upgrade with a new compressor plant, new pipe up the Main snow making runs like OG , Fling, Downspout, Jester, etc. and the usual runs at Ellen. No new terrain, just what we already use. Something solid and dependable. You don't have to be a genius to understand what we have is severly deficient. Even with the new guns we don't have enough air pressure to blow one continuous run from top to bottom. We have to blow segments to get it done.

dont have yearly snowfall numbers for SB, but here they are for stowe, which is representative: (FWIW-it would be great if the powers that be would share that data for SB. it must be kept somewhere)

http://www.americanwx.com/bb/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=74570

Last year was by far the worst in the last 15 years. I'd love to see data prior to '97 but I cant find it.

my experience doesnt go back as far as yours, but in the past 5 seasons in which I have been coming up regularly, the snowmaking has been adequate IMHO. not great. not sufficient to get things rolling early. frustrating for sure. there is inarguably significant room for improvement. maybe we've just been lucky, but I think if choices have to be made for allocation of resources for capital improvements, there are other issues that need to be addressed.

Hawk
11-12-2012, 12:17 PM
You are right. There is only so much money to go around. They have their plan So I just hope it keeps snowing ;-) I know that I am in the minority on my view. That's OK.

skimore
11-12-2012, 01:12 PM
Don’t weigh in much, in my eyes this is the kind of skier visit that counts, family of 4 up for the a week end of skiing. 2 adults + 2 kids, tickets & rental alone will cost $574 add to that meals and two nights of lodging and the total tab is probably an easy $1,300. To me these are the visits that make or break the season from a profitability standpoint and maybe convert some of them to skiers or at least spread the word about the good time they had.

sugarbushskier
11-12-2012, 01:44 PM
Hello.....been lurking for a couple of years and finally decided to take the plunge to officially join. As a longtime skier in the MRV, the current ownership has done wonders, but snowmaking challenges do affect the ability to start early in the season and recover quickly when needed.

I understand the water/power/compressor limitations, but how about taking a different approach, especially early in the season to get started. Since we can't put the product down in enough volume on enough trail acreage, is there any opportuity to improve the physical trail surface to minimze the amount required to get started skiing? I'm thinking of removal of select obstacles, rocks, stumps etc and improving trail surface consistency by select grading and/or mowing. Please understand I spend as much time as possible in the woods and love the challenges of non-standard terrain, but doing the above on a few select beginner/intermediate type of terrain could allow SB to start ealier with less manmade snow.

I'm completely against bulldozing terrain and hate the cookie-cutter near straright line type of trails some mountains have and that's why I love SB and MRG, but accomplishing this type of grading/terrain improvement on just a few areas might be cost effective and not require much of an investment? I also have to say that I really have no clue as to what this type of project would entail from a resource perspective, but just wanted to throw it out there.

Looking forward to getting back to skiing very soon!

southvillager
11-12-2012, 03:25 PM
I am telling you Mother Nature is going to rail on us. It's only a matter of time. We have been way lucky.

It happens. The worst season I can remember may have been '90-'91 (around then anyway). There was a bad one a couple years prior to that also. Just no snow either year. We had season passes, but would drive to Stowe or Killington to ski. Back then "North" (Mt Ellen) had the better snowmaking, way better than "South".

HowieT2
11-12-2012, 04:02 PM
You are right. There is only so much money to go around. They have their plan So I just hope it keeps snowing ;-) I know that I am in the minority on my view. That's OK.

I dont know that you're in the minority on the issue.

win
11-12-2012, 06:02 PM
Sugarbushskier, we do mow the trails every year and this makes for a better ski experience. There really isn't other stuff that impacts trail openings. It is necessary to have water bars to prevent erosion so they need to be filled in with snow but groomers make that happen on the trails we groom.

HowieT2, our average snowfall over the past 50 years is 269 inches. (this is on the website under Mountain Stats). If anything, I think we err on the side of underreporting. I am not sure where Stowe measures. If it is the top of Mansfield that would add to their totals. We measure at LP at base, Allyn's Lodge and top of Heaven's Gate. Last year we had 166 inches which was the lowest in a number of years but still nearly fourteen feet of natural snow. The biggest issue last year was there was hardly any snow in Boston, New York and even Burlington. The people that came were pleasantly surprised by the conditions. Our snowmakers and groomer did an excellent job last winter and we were one of the few Mountains in the East to be 100% open from mid-January to mid-March.

The past two days did some damage, but it looks like we will resume snowmaking tomorrow and we will be open this Saturday most likely skiing on Upper Jester, Downspout and Upper Organgrinder and I think the conditions up there will be good. Given the temperature forecast it is possible but not likely we will get top to bottom so be ready to download. We need 24-36 hours of temperatures in the low twenties to get enough snow from Heaven's Gate lift down to the base to open to the base. If we can't make snow low, we are set up to begin snowmaking on Ripcord.

HowieT2
11-12-2012, 08:45 PM
Sugarbushskier, we do mow the trails every year and this makes for a better ski experience. There really isn't other stuff that impacts trail openings. It is necessary to have water bars to prevent erosion so they need to be filled in with snow but groomers make that happen on the trails we groom.

HowieT2, our average snowfall over the past 50 years is 269 inches. (this is on the website under Mountain Stats). If anything, I think we err on the side of underreporting. I am not sure where Stowe measures. If it is the top of Mansfield that would add to their totals. We measure at LP at base, Allyn's Lodge and top of Heaven's Gate. Last year we had 166 inches which was the lowest in a number of years but still nearly fourteen feet of natural snow. The biggest issue last year was there was hardly any snow in Boston, New York and even Burlington. The people that came were pleasantly surprised by the conditions. Our snowmakers and groomer did an excellent job last winter and we were one of the few Mountains in the East to be 100% open from mid-January to mid-March.

The past two days did some damage, but it looks like we will resume snowmaking tomorrow and we will be open this Saturday most likely skiing on Upper Jester, Downspout and Upper Organgrinder and I think the conditions up there will be good. Given the temperature forecast it is possible but not likely we will get top to bottom so be ready to download. We need 24-36 hours of temperatures in the low twenties to get enough snow from Heaven's Gate lift down to the base to open to the base. If we can't make snow low, we are set up to begin snowmaking on Ripcord.

Win, I'm interested in the annual (as opposed to average) snowfall numbers so as to compare past winters with what's expected in the upcoming season. The weather people seem to look for analogous prior seasons for guidance. I've heard 75-76 and 07-08 bandied about for this year.

Also, I think Stowe measures a stake at 3000'.

Treeskier
11-12-2012, 09:25 PM
What a great day I had today at Sunday River. Top to bottom side to side on 3 ways down plus a terrain park. And we can't make one way down?

RedneckMutha
11-12-2012, 09:46 PM
What a great day I had today at Sunday River. Top to bottom side to side on 3 ways down plus a terrain park. And we can't make one way down?

Less was more overhere anyway!

Hawk
11-13-2012, 08:29 AM
Well there you have it. I guess last year was great. I just recalibrated my conditions peception meter so that my expectations we will be all set for future years. I just didn't realize that it was supposed to be that low. My bad. ;-)

win
11-13-2012, 10:19 AM
The cold was returned and it was snowing from the middle of Spring Fling up this morning. Not a ton but better than nothing and snowmaking will resume above mid-mountain. It is 36 degrees at the base but colder up high.

sglatham
11-13-2012, 02:49 PM
Here is a cool site for historical info from Mt Mansfield snow stake (which is at 3,900' they say). Make sure to toggle to Snow Depth.

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/?Page=mansel.php3

There is also a function at the bottom to create a bar graph of seasonal snowfall (though it seems a little funky - the yearly graphs are the best data). But based on this you might be surprised that while 2011/12 was the lowest since '79, there were several years that were effectively the same ('82,'90,'94).

So yes, it was a bad year and worst in many, many years. But there is also the issue of comparison as prior years had been so good, and how winter never really showed in major cities, and really even in Burlington.

My 2cents - the long range weather guys are looking for a colder/snowier winter, even if not a killer one and we are moving into a good cool down for the next several weeks that will make the beginning of 12/13 have no resemblance to last year.

The bottom line is that Sugarbush needs to investment in snowmaking beyond a dozen or so energy efficient guns. This becomes more evident every year, and will become more glaring as Stowe rolls out the new guns, Jay continues to invest, and now Burke is making big investments. I am not questioning Win's prioritization as he has done a fantastic job, but if we are having this discussion in a couple of years then I believe skier visits will be impacted significantly.

In the meantime, THINK SNOW! It solves most problems...........

win
11-13-2012, 03:17 PM
We will continue to invest. By the way we bought 40 guns last year. Twenty are used to get Inverness open for GMVS and then most are moved over to LP. These guns use only 5 CFM. When all 40 are running they use a total of only 200 CFM. These forty replace one old Ratnick and if they are putting out 20 - 70 gallons (depending on the temperatures) per minute you can see the impact they have. An old gun put out the same gallons of water as one new gun. Some resorts this year bought some other equipment that cost less than the snowlogics and use 30 CFM. That is 6x the air of the snowlogics, and they put out about the same gpm. For a mountain like ours it is likely that we will use different equipment on different parts of the mountain. Fan guns cost about $30K installed and can put out up to 150 gpm in colder temperatures. They work well on wide intermediate trails but they are difficult to move around and would not work on most of our trails. That said we have three in operation this year. The key to making snow is to try to maximize the amount of water than can be put through the system. At Lincoln Peak our capacity is around 4,000 gallons per minute and somewhat less at ME. You can either max the water by getting more compressed by renting diesel compressors or by buying more electric compressors or you can continue to invest in technology that allows you to pump more water with the same compressed air. This latter alternatives is the one that makes sense and why we will continue to invest in low energy equipment rather than adding more air. Mountains like Killington and Sunday River can pump more water because of the system built years ago. Our water capacity is what it is.

Investment by the way in snowmaking is not always visible. We replaced main pipes at both LP and ME two years ago, have rebuilt our compressor, rebuilt the cooling towers, etc to keep the system operating efficiently. These are big capital items and are as important as buying new guns, but as I said, when we have a good year and capital to invest we will continue to improve our capacity.

cmoore
11-13-2012, 03:29 PM
this afternoon...

Tin Woodsman
11-13-2012, 04:38 PM
We will continue to invest. By the way we bought 40 guns last year. Twenty are used to get Inverness open for GMVS and then most are moved over to LP. These guns use only 5 CFM. When all 40 are running they use a total of only 200 CFM. These forty replace one old Ratnick and if they are putting out 20 - 70 gallons (depending on the temperatures) per minute you can see the impact they have. An old gun put out the same gallons of water as one new gun. Some resorts this year bought some other equipment that cost less than the snowlogics and use 30 CFM. That is 6x the air of the snowlogics, and they put out about the same gpm. For a mountain like ours it is likely that we will use different equipment on different parts of the mountain. Fan guns cost about $30K installed and can put out up to 150 gpm in colder temperatures. They work well on wide intermediate trails but they are difficult to move around and would not work on most of our trails. That said we have three in operation this year. The key to making snow is to try to maximize the amount of water than can be put through the system. At Lincoln Peak our capacity is around 4,000 gallons per minute and somewhat less at ME. You can either max the water by getting more compressed by renting diesel compressors or by buying more electric compressors or you can continue to invest in technology that allows you to pump more water with the same compressed air. This latter alternatives is the one that makes sense and why we will continue to invest in low energy equipment rather than adding more air. Mountains like Killington and Sunday River can pump more water because of the system built years ago. Our water capacity is what it is.

Investment by the way in snowmaking is not always visible. We replaced main pipes at both LP and ME two years ago, have rebuilt our compressor, rebuilt the cooling towers, etc to keep the system operating efficiently. These are big capital items and are as important as buying new guns, but as I said, when we have a good year and capital to invest we will continue to improve our capacity.

Great post.

I would continue to argue (as I have for years here) that investing in fixed location fan guns makes sense on certain slugs of wide, high traffic, intermediate terrain at SB:
- Spring Fling
- Snowball
- Pushover/Slow Poke
- Birch Run
- the junction of Stein's/Lower OG/Lower Jester
- select spots on Downspout (like that wide spot where it turns to the right after the OG intersection)
- Lower Ripcord
- Inverness
- Times Square around the base of the NRX
- Northstar
- Cruiser
- Which way
- Elbow
- Lower Rim Run

Those spots comprise the majority of the most popular cruising terrain at SB, and they all have theproper width and pitch for fan guns. Fan guns have the additional benefit of consuming 0 CFM against 150 gpm, so they fit in the construct of trying to optimize with a given/fixed amount of compressed air. I think the major drawback for SB is the capital cost, but that's a business decision, not a snow surfaces decision.

pinnoke
11-14-2012, 09:54 AM
As indicated, Mountain Ops seem to be doing the best they can to have t2b coverage by Saturday's opening, if at all possible. Surely, with the lower guns firing around Valley House, you'd have to imagine the run-out is also in play. As daytime temps climb at lowest elevations, it would seem snowmaking should be continuous at higher els. Hoping for a fun day, no matter the route down, on Saturday! See y'all then, or as soon as you can BE HERE.

Treeskier
11-14-2012, 11:06 AM
Really nice to see snow guns around super brovo lift on the web cam at 11:06 AM

win
11-14-2012, 11:33 AM
It is all about the hours of having temps below 25-26 degrees wet bulb. I am borrowing some language from Killington's snow report.

A quick snowmaking lesson:
Ideal snowmaking conditions include outside temperature of 28 degrees with 50% humidity. While 28 degrees with 75% humidity is pretty good and 28 degrees with 100% humidity is marginal for snowmaking.

Ambient temperatures are not what we all look at. It is the wet bulb temperature. The lower the humidity the lower the wet bulb. Right now (11:30am) at the base of LP it is 35 ambient degrees but because the humidity is only 57% the Wetbulb is 30.4 degrees. Still too high for good snowmaking. At Allyn's lodge ambient is 27 degrees, humidity is 77% so wetbulb is 24.9 degrees which is good for snowmaking. The summit is 20 ambient degrees with near 100% humidity so it is 20 wetbulb which is very good for snowmaking. Hope this helps all understand some of the facts behind where and when snow can be made.

Roadkill
11-14-2012, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the info, updates and your leadership, Win. Would you mind calling the CEOs of JCP&L and LIPA and tell them how to communicate with your customers?!!!!!!!

sglatham
11-14-2012, 01:48 PM
Win once again proves that he is at the least the most transparent and informative ski resort owner, and maybe the best. Thanks for spending the time to inform the Monday morning quarterback snowmaking critics!

It really is amazing how little air the new guns use vs the old Ratniks.

Of course, the most efficient snowmaking is from the Heavens. So THINK SNOW!

HowieT2
11-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Thanks for the info, updates and your leadership, Win. Would you mind calling the CEOs of JCP&L and LIPA and tell them how to communicate with your customers?!!!!!!!

and coned and verizon too. while i have power, im still without phone, tv and internet at home.

random_ski_guy
11-14-2012, 08:29 PM
Thanks for the info, updates and your leadership, Win. Would you mind calling the CEOs of JCP&L and LIPA and tell them how to communicate with your customers?!!!!!!!


If you want asnwers on LIPA, contact Cuomo and the state Senate and Legislature for answers. LIPA is a non-profit entity owned by you the tax payers of NY with management selected by the aforemention political entities.

http://www.lipower.org/company/profile/trustees-bios.html#Steinberg

random_ski_guy
11-14-2012, 08:44 PM
Great post.

I would continue to argue (as I have for years here) that investing in fixed location fan guns makes sense on certain slugs of wide, high traffic, intermediate terrain at SB:
- Spring Fling
- Snowball
- Pushover/Slow Poke
- Birch Run
- the junction of Stein's/Lower OG/Lower Jester
- select spots on Downspout (like that wide spot where it turns to the right after the OG intersection)
- Lower Ripcord
- Inverness
- Times Square around the base of the NRX
- Northstar
- Cruiser
- Which way
- Elbow
- Lower Rim Run

Those spots comprise the majority of the most popular cruising terrain at SB, and they all have theproper width and pitch for fan guns. Fan guns have the additional benefit of consuming 0 CFM against 150 gpm, so they fit in the construct of trying to optimize with a given/fixed amount of compressed air. I think the major drawback for SB is the capital cost, but that's a business decision, not a snow surfaces decision.



Yeah - me too - I feel like a handful of fan jets at the wide high traffic areas like downspout - around the HG chair and lower snowball/base area would be a helpful boost to early season start up and mid season resurfacing. I know the big fans are far more capital intensive, but they do put out more gallons per minute in marginal weather and that is obviously key in early season as we have seen over the last several Novembers. Plus, I know once you add a few of these fans, the next several falls will have copious nights with temps in the single digits at the base rather than these falls of late when it struggles to get to 28. Anywho...fingers crossed for snow.

sglatham
11-15-2012, 10:59 AM
The surprise of the day - as of 10:45am and per the CAM the guns are still running at the base. The web says base temp 33, so maybe these new guns really can make snow in marginal temps.......(I am sure the temp is actually a bit lower than that but still marginal)

HowieT2
11-15-2012, 05:18 PM
In the past, the discussion here had assumed that the amount of air was the limiting factor in snow production. and that's why some have begged for more compressors and others for fan guns, myself included. I wonder if that is still actually the case. LP maxes out of water at 4000gpm (see Win's post above). each of the snologic guns puts out 20-70 gpm as do the less air efficient guns. there are 2 fan guns at 150 gpm so thats 300 gpm. then means they can run a max of 52 guns if they are getting 70 gpm out of them and 74 at 50 gpm. How many guns are they running simultaneously now??? correct me if im wrong but they have to be running at least 50 guns now, so they have to be close to maxing out on water, not air (and that is with the 20 snologix still over on inverness). once all 40 snologix are at LP, they should regularly be maxing out on water, no?

why is the water limited to 4000 gpm? is that a legal limitation that simply can't be increased? is it a system limitation that could be increased?

gostan
11-15-2012, 06:01 PM
In the past, the discussion here had assumed that the amount of air was the limiting factor in snow production. and that's why some have begged for more compressors and others for fan guns, myself included. I wonder if that is still actually the case. LP maxes out of water at 4000gpm (see Win's post above). each of the snologic guns puts out 20-70 gpm as do the less air efficient guns. there are 2 fan guns at 150 gpm so thats 300 gpm. then means they can run a max of 52 guns if they are getting 70 gpm out of them and 74 at 50 gpm. How many guns are they running simultaneously now??? correct me if im wrong but they have to be running at least 50 guns now, so they have to be close to maxing out on water, not air (and that is with the 20 snologix still over on inverness). once all 40 snologix are at LP, they should regularly be maxing out on water, no?

why is the water limited to 4000 gpm? is that a legal limitation that simply can't be increased? is it a system limitation that could be increased?I do not have ski area snowmaking water withdrawal permit experience, but I imagine that there is a VT 250 state permit process along with a 401 Water Quality certification from Army .corp. of Engineers. Howie, your question led me to the following PDF. Www.vtwaterquality.org/rivers/docs/rv_snowrule.pdf

After a day of dealing with various Mass DEP and EPA issues, I would not want to have to wade through this process.

random_ski_guy
11-15-2012, 06:36 PM
In the past, the discussion here had assumed that the amount of air was the limiting factor in snow production. and that's why some have begged for more compressors and others for fan guns, myself included. I wonder if that is still actually the case. LP maxes out of water at 4000gpm (see Win's post above). each of the snologic guns puts out 20-70 gpm as do the less air efficient guns. there are 2 fan guns at 150 gpm so thats 300 gpm. then means they can run a max of 52 guns if they are getting 70 gpm out of them and 74 at 50 gpm. How many guns are they running simultaneously now??? correct me if im wrong but they have to be running at least 50 guns now, so they have to be close to maxing out on water, not air (and that is with the 20 snologix still over on inverness). once all 40 snologix are at LP, they should regularly be maxing out on water, no?

why is the water limited to 4000 gpm? is that a legal limitation that simply can't be increased? is it a system limitation that could be increased?

Nice snow gun analysis Howie; GPM absolutely matters. I don’t know the particulars, but I believe Okemo can operate at something closer to 8k to 10k GPM. Its a sure bet Kton, Stowe, Stratton and others have something far more than 4k as well. Win is in a tough spot because LP and ME require duplicative snowmaking systems when other mtns can get more efficiency from a single main system with a few branches for the far corners of the mtn. If SB had the combined fire power of LP and ME at one location, early season top to bottom skiing would surely be more reliable as total gun saturation could be assured on an entire run T2B. As of now, SB cannot get that level of saturation w/o the benefit of very cold temps & more GPM.

A lack of major water source and place to store such water is another handicap for Sugarbush. My understanding is that the door is closed for an increased intake permit from the Mad River beyond the current volume.
Storing more water is key for sustained early season snowmaking. I don’t know if part of the answer for water resources could mean a major pond up near the base of LP to collect more mtn runoff during warm spells. Seems to me that SB’s relatively tight base area configuration puts a bit of a damper on a larger pond unless they reduce the parking lot.

Lastly, I think Win has hinted that Kton, Okemo, Sunday River and others all built their massive snowmaking systems right before environmental regulations became more stringent, particularly with respect to water withdraw rights and pond building. Plus, the other mtns do not have the layer of complexion the Nat Forrest Service adds to the picture.

Win, what is the issue with building a larger pond, could you do it if you wanted too?

HowieT2
11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
If i had to guess, id say the 4000gpm is the maximum permitted amount and that cant be increased. They replaced all the pipe 2 years ago, so if that was the limiting factor, one would think, they simply would have installed bigger pipes.

win
11-16-2012, 07:16 AM
If i had to guess, id say the 4000gpm is the maximum permitted amount and that cant be increased. They replaced all the pipe 2 years ago, so if that was the limiting factor, one would think, they simply would have installed bigger pipes.

That is the maximum volume you can get through the pipe from the pond.

I just heard from our snowmakers, so you are the first to hear this. Top to Bottom tomorrow when Bravo begins turning at 9am. Upper Organgrinder, Upper Jester, Downspout all the way and across Coffee Run to the bottom. Allyn's Lodge will be open for snacks too as well as base area F&B.

gostan
11-16-2012, 07:33 AM
That is the maximum volume you can get through the pipe from the pond.

I just heard from our snowmakers, so you are the first to hear this. Top to Bottom tomorrow when Bravo begins turning at 9am. Upper Organgrinder, Upper Jester, Downspout all the way and across Coffee Run to the bottom. Allyn's Lodge will be open for snacks too as well as base area F&B.T2B...yeah! & Upper OG is a surprise pre TDay snack. Way to go MT OPs. See you all in the corral tomorrow am.

sglatham
11-16-2012, 08:47 AM
Mike and crew are to be commended. Having T2B is a major deal, but throwing in Upper OG is pretty major. Remember, its only November 16th!!!!

Wish I could be there but I hope to be soon.

THINK SNOW!

WWF-VT
11-16-2012, 08:58 AM
Looking forward to tomorrow - great news on T2B skiing.

Hawk
11-16-2012, 09:00 AM
See you all tomorrow. Stan save some of those fresh tracks for me dude. ;-) Who else is up from your house?
I have a few days under my belt and am looking forward to going home to ski. Finally!

HowieT2
11-16-2012, 09:21 AM
That is the maximum volume you can get through the pipe from the pond.

I just heard from our snowmakers, so you are the first to hear this. Top to Bottom tomorrow when Bravo begins turning at 9am. Upper Organgrinder, Upper Jester, Downspout all the way and across Coffee Run to the bottom. Allyn's Lodge will be open for snacks too as well as base area F&B.

well I guess I was wrong. better stick to my day job.

anyhoooo...great news. hope you all enjoy.

teleo
11-16-2012, 09:38 AM
T2B & OG - Excellent! Can't wait. It's been a long time.

Hawk
11-16-2012, 10:35 AM
well I guess I was wrong. better stick to my day job.

anyhoooo...great news. hope you all enjoy.

Howie, trust me it's the air. Guns don't run full tilt and use the GPM that you suggest in your calcs. SB doesn't run that many guns anyway. 4000 GPM is plenty of water. OK - Little known fact and why I always champion the snow making system. When I was young.... years ago I made snow at a place that was the best at doing it. I know this process and I know when they do it right. I also have other info. Positive marketing speels don't influence me. I just want the best for this place.

I will ski what ever they blow and await the real snow. That is the reason I moved and why I am here now after all. No one will ever understand the concept of snowmaking on here. I will give up.....until next season. ;-) Armchair Snowmaking???? I think not!!!

shadyjay
11-16-2012, 10:36 AM
I have to wonder when was the last time we had t2b on opening day? It definitely hasn't happened since 08/09.

Watching the transformation of Lower Downspout/Lower Jester/Coffee Run last night was something else. Bare spots one run... a few hours later... giant piles.

I'm gonna pass on opening day... save my energy for what tonight and Sat night hold in store for us.

Enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gostan
11-16-2012, 11:28 AM
See you all tomorrow. Stan save some of those fresh tracks for me dude. ;-) Who else is up from your house?
I have a few days under my belt and am looking forward to going home to ski. Finally!Hawk, Tree & Craig for sure. Tomorrow will be my first day. See you.

win
11-16-2012, 03:12 PM
We were tyring to remember the last time we were open top to bottom on opening day at either LP or ME. Also with Thanksgiving this early this in one of our earliest openings ever. The snow quality down low is not mid-winter quality with the cold days and warmer days but it will be groomed and it is T2B. I also believe we will have the most vertical open in the East tomorrow.

Howie, 4,000 gpm is sufficient. In early season temps it is possible to get guns putting out 20gpm so with the LE equipment we can get 150-200 guns going versus the old days when we could only get 20-40. As temperatures decline the guns can get up to 80 gpm so you run few guns put get the trails where they are running done faster. As I said earlier this new techonology lets ski areas put out the same amount of water will less energy. As we invest in more of these guns we will be able to make more snow when temperatures are in the 20s.

By Thanksgiving a lot of Vermont resorts will be open and this should get the buzz doing in the metro markets. Spread the word. This winter is already different than last year and the best is yet to be!

shadyjay
11-18-2012, 08:23 AM
We made snow last night on OG, plus parts of Lower Downspout and on Lower Lower Jester and Coffee Run, plus the base. Temps didn't really cooperate Fri night but they were colder last night. The runout was groomed for opening day and I believe it was to be groomed again this AM. Definitely filling in nicely. I'm sad to have missed opening day for the first time in 4 or 5 years, but I'd rather get my sleep to have my A game when it counts. 5PM comes pretty quick! :-)

Plenty of pics on sugarbush.com and a vid seems to show everyone was happy and having a good time. Not just T2B, but 2 routes down from HG, and the most vert open in the East? How could you go wrong!

jwt
11-18-2012, 08:25 AM
No opening day update? Any snowmaking? Conditions? Grooming? Depth? Lets hear it!!!

Mart of K was near perfect yesterday. Did not have the time for the extra 1 hr r/t to the Bush- even though it would have been 'free'.

11 trails , no lines 3 lifts, some soft , some firm ,but all pretty dry.

Got my $59 worth.
Hope Bush was good, looking forward to. Snowy winter, need moisture. Too quiet now, but storm coming next week.

win
11-18-2012, 11:54 AM
Over 1,200 people came to opening day and we have a good number of people out again today. The next few days look dry and somewhat warmer, so it doesn't look like great snowmaking temperatures, but we have good snow down and will remain open T2B and hopefully get to expand terrain when the cold returns and/or we get some natural stuff.

Treeskier
11-18-2012, 10:03 PM
Sure was great to be back at the Bush. Really nice to see everyone in great spirits. Did not get to the hill on Saturday till 2:00, which by then, with not so sharp skis, was quite challenging. Slick in spots... you know. But got out this morning for early runs on my new sticks. Much better. Still lots of smiles. Last nights Kick Off party was also very well attended and nice to see both our valley MTs co-sponsoring the fine event. Love the fact that the featured Meat Head film was all skiing. I am glad we made top to bottom! A little dryer snow would have been nice. Now I think it's time to start my snow dance.

I have fond memories of tell my Mass. friends and business assoc. from Decembers of past...that while they are at their Holiday parties we are up skiing the trees. After last years dismalness I can only hope for a snowy December. Ho Ho HO!

Back to snow dancing!

Hawk
11-19-2012, 08:23 AM
Yes it was great to see everybody. I love the vibe on opening day. People are so happy to ski and its all the same people that love this sport that I left at the hill on closing day last year. ;-) It was good to not have to down load. Conditons were challenging but if you sayed on the sides it was nice. How about that patch of ice at the bottom of Organ Grinder!!!!!! We stood there for about 10 minutes watching people come down and hit that thing and go flying. LOL It was like something out of a Warren Miller movie. Too funny.

win
11-19-2012, 08:48 AM
Glad I was one of the first down that morning so you didn't see me hit it! Inversions this time of year create a lot of challenges for snowmaking. I hit the upper one too!

It looks like this weekend until Saturday is going to be warm and dry so we probably won't have many snowmaking hours or natural stuff, but hopefully over he weekend the pattern will change. We will likely have he same terrain aslst weekend for the start of Thanksgiving weekend.

gostan
11-19-2012, 12:19 PM
It was a delight to see Win, Lili & Adam on the first chair of the season and to catch up with so many of you, especially because it was only November 17th! Getting to de-stress on the slopes for the first time in almost 8 months made opening day a memorable one.

gostan
11-20-2012, 08:40 AM
Win, do you think that you be able to begin blowing snow at Gatehouse post Thanksgiving weekend? The weather looks like it will cooperate.

win
11-20-2012, 12:44 PM
Stan,
We are hoping so! It looks like the cold is returning late on Saturday. The temps may still keep us up high initially. Our guy is calling it to be in the teens up there. We can use some more on Downspout as it is getting skied hard. but when we see the bottom temps we will be moving over to Gathouse so we can get some beginner and intermediate terrain open as soon as possible. Moving snowmlogics from ME to LP will help as will the fan guns. The snow quality this morning was really nice as I did a couple of runs at 9am.

gostan
11-20-2012, 03:27 PM
Stan,
We are hoping so! It looks like the cold is returning late on Saturday. The temps may still keep us up high initially. Our guy is calling it to be in the teens up there. We can use some more on Downspout as it is getting skied hard. but when we see the bottom temps we will be moving over to Gathouse so we can get some beginner and intermediate terrain open as soon as possible. Moving snowmlogics from ME to LP will help as will the fan guns. The snow quality this morning was really nice as I did a couple of runs at 9am.
Thx for the update. With the early start to the season, you are well on your way to that century mark!

shadyjay
11-20-2012, 06:42 PM
After doing some product-testing the past couple of days, I have to say that its pretty awesome out there. And as a side-note...looking back at the stats from last year, we did not have top-to-bottom until December 12.

win
11-21-2012, 01:09 PM
It was great to see Shadyjay enjoying his work this morning!

win
11-22-2012, 11:27 AM
What we have is hollding up really well. We just haven't been able to expand, but that will be changing late Friday into Saturday. Some really good snowmaking temps will be arriving and we might get a little natural as well.

win
11-23-2012, 06:13 PM
Sometime around 2am Saturday morning we should be back into snowmaking and will be touching up the existing trails first. We are planning to winch Organgrinder, so that is where to be early tomorrow. If the temps come in as projected we will be running the towers there as well as on parts of Jester and Downspout. The week looks good for snowmaking, so you should see the guns running over on the Gatehouse side as well this week. We might also see some Lake effect especially later in the week when temps are projected to come down further.

shadyjay
11-24-2012, 09:18 AM
OG was definitely groomed last night/this morning. We lit it up with guns sometime around 5am, and Jester got going a few hours prior. Early evening funk turned over to snow but not much accumulated. Downspout will get some TLC today or tonight.... it needs it. Be careful out there espec with holiday crowds. Hopefully cold temps are here to stay!

win
11-24-2012, 05:57 PM
Should have some good cold temps so will be lit up on Organgrinder all night and spotting places on Jester and Downspout where resurfacing is needed. Will also turn on 30 snowlogics on the lower mountain when temps come down tonight. We will groom very later so there should be some nice skiing and riding tomorrow. OG was nice today and I enjoyed several runs. It should be even better tomorrow. The week looks good for snowmaking and hopefully we will get some clippers out of the west. As the week goes on it gets colder into next weekend and that might bring in some lake effect. We are also making snow over at ME to get ready for opening there in a month. GMVS is ding their race training on Inverness.

Benski
11-24-2012, 07:28 PM
What should we expect by next weekend.

WWF-VT
11-26-2012, 03:54 PM
FWIW - yesterday the guns were on Riemergasse aka the terrain park at Mt Ellen as well as the base area and it looked like Inverness was close to ready to go top to bottom. GMVS was on the lower part of Inverness this weekend.

shadyjay
11-27-2012, 08:24 PM
Guns going over on the Gate House side, including the base area there, plus Easy Rider and First Time. Over on Bravo side, Lower OG and (I'm assuming) Middle Jester are lit. No word on Pushover yet, but I'm guessing that'll be next. Also guessing that upper mtn such as Ripcord will be saved for when temps are marginal down low. Probably why Riemergasse is getting the treatment ahead of upper mtn Ellen runs.

shadyjay
11-28-2012, 03:23 PM
Just got back from making some turns and can confirm that Lower OG, Domino Chute, and Middle Jester were definitely going today, along with Gondolier.

While I have no idea when actual new terrain will open, I will say that Domino Chute and the beginning of Middle Jester had a lot of snow on them, and the switchbacks from Bravo looked like they were filling in nicely. All I know is that the web site snow report says that we are looking to open more terrain soon, possibly even the Village Double.

And yes, while we were making snow again on Upper Jester, OG, and Downspout a few days ago... there was a reason for that: last week's warm spell, followed by rain.

If the trails we are making snow on that are not open yet are open by the weekend, it'll add 4 trails to the count, 5 if you count the rest of Lower Jester. It'll help considerably, giving an alternate route from Bravo down to the base, plus the critical beginner terrain. Granted, a big 2'+ dump would do wonders to get the mountain in great shape. I remember such a storm a few years ago, when we went from downloading one day, to having everything off Bravo/Heaven's Gate/VH open, granted a lot of it was au' natural. It can all change at the drop of a hat (or a ski pole off the lift).

HowieT2
11-29-2012, 04:01 PM
for the record, would anyone like to compare where SB is at now versus kton, stowe and other comparable mtns. I just looked at kton's trail map and while they definitely have more terrain open, its not that great a difference.

Hawk
11-29-2012, 04:08 PM
What???? LOLOLOLOL Howie that is one big coolaid drinking delusion. LOLOLOL I have skied Kton - SR and the bush in the last 3 weeks. It's not even close.

Hawk
11-29-2012, 04:08 PM
Wait was that just a Troll????? If it was you got me. ;-)

HowieT2
11-29-2012, 04:40 PM
What???? LOLOLOLOL Howie that is one big coolaid drinking delusion. LOLOLOL I have skied Kton - SR and the bush in the last 3 weeks. It's not even close.

i didnt say it was close. I said "they definitely have more terrain open." but its not like they have 50 trails open when SB has 8. on the website they have 27. SB will be up to at least 12 this weekend but if mellon was open that would add another 6-8 trails.

and btw-i posted this cause ben just called me whining about the snowmaking and i thought I was talking to you.

Hawk
11-29-2012, 04:55 PM
Just bustin your balls. So in actuality, last weekend SB had 1 top to bottom run with 2 ways down from the top. Killington had 1 T2B on Sky Peak, 2 T2B on snowdon, 1 T2B on Ramshead with about 6 uppermountan trails. It was way more skiing but the impressive thing was the coverage and quality. Night and day. I skied both and that is the truth. This weekend I am going to Sunday River because they will have 30 trails and I can ski for free.

Until it snows, I won't be back. ;-)

HowieT2
11-29-2012, 05:08 PM
looked like it was dumping on the webcam.
hope it snows so you can rejoin the party.

I'm making my first trek up tomorrow. looking forward to some turns.

Treeskier
11-30-2012, 07:58 AM
Our neighbors to the north and south of us have all increased trail counts. When will we?

cmoore
11-30-2012, 09:37 AM
From this morning...

skibum4451
11-30-2012, 01:56 PM
From this morning...

Looks awesome - keep them coming
in Western NY we have none on the floor and a warm front coming in.
Hopefully you will continue to get snow!

shadyjay
11-30-2012, 04:49 PM
13 trails open starting tomorrow, with the addition of Middle Jester, most of Lower OG, Domino Chute, plus First Time and part of Easy Rider.
http://www.sugarbush.com/snow-trails-conditions/live-mountain-update

shadyjay
11-30-2012, 05:49 PM
That's the spirit, Ride DE! In fact you don't hear anyone complaining at the mtn whatsoever. The fact that tomorrow is December 1 and we already have 3 routes open from the top of Bravo, plus beginner terrain open.... I think that's pretty impressive! Hopefully this is a trend of things to come and that with the upcoming warmup, we won't have to rebuild what we have already.

Remember last year, we were I believe the first resort in the east to be 100% open.

It's still early.........

teleo
12-01-2012, 08:02 AM
Easyrider open but no village double??? For hiking only???? From the welcome mat???
Not good for beginners or little kids starting the season.

shadyjay
12-01-2012, 10:26 AM
Only the lower 1/3 of Easy Rider is open, accessed from the welcome mat. There's a descent width access trail connecting the two.

othripper
12-01-2012, 02:08 PM
Last winter was the worst winter ever, IMHO. Personally I would not use it as a benchmark for anything. Let's just hope it stays cold.

win
12-01-2012, 02:16 PM
Cold is what we need this time of year. It is warming up tonight through laate Wednesday so we likely won't have snowmaking temps back until then. However, the past two days have been terrific and we have put down a lot, so I don't think we will have to resurface too many spots but we'll see once the cold returns. If we have the cold temps down low, we will try to open GH lift with Pushover and all of Easy Rider next weekend. If not, we will begin expanding on either Birdland, Murphy's or Ripcord. After next weekend the longer term pattern looks wintery.

The quality of the snowmaking today was really excellent, and if you got out early a freshly groomed Organgrinder was "fast and furious."

HowieT2
12-01-2012, 05:00 PM
Og was super this morning. What a fun day with snow coming down the whole time.

Was it me or was there a lot of twenty somethings at the mtn today?

gostan
12-01-2012, 09:35 PM
Og was super this morning. What a fun day with snow coming down the whole time.

Was it me or was there a lot of twenty somethings at the mtn today?I rode HG several times with new For Twenties folks who opted out of Bolton Valley to come here. Howie, I agree that the snow on OG was fab this am. And the whales really were a blast until they just plain wore me out.

SkiVideoGuy
12-02-2012, 09:50 AM
Saw a post today on FB from Stowe about their purchase of 325 HKD snowguns and the output they got yesterday. Stowe gets more snow on average every year already. Now they have 325 of these super efficient guns. It seems the gap in snowmaking prowess is growing between Sugarbush and Stowe. Killington seems to have awoken from their slumber with new management. Jay/Burke is becoming a monster. The SB long range plan does not exist in a vacuum. Other mountains do things that warrant a response. Demand for RiceBrook is a decision by someone to commit to the MRV or commit to Stowe or Jay/Burke or K. Snowmaking is part of that decision if they plan on spending time at their vacation home for Thanksgiving or Christmas.

Maybe we can't get more water up the hill right now but perhaps these guns can make more snow with a given amount of water or make more snow than the existing guns at a given wet bulb temp? I'm by no means an expert in snow tech but from PA, it seems that others are pulling away in terms of ability to lay down the white. I don't know how many HKD's SB has or where they are permanently mounted but maybe it's time to outfit the slopes that are priority for early season with these babies.

You guys up there on site can sift through the marketing hype better than I from 6 hours away. With no snowmaking this week, maybe somebody up there could ski SB and Stowe and report in on a comparison of the snow.

What do you guys think?

jwt
12-02-2012, 05:48 PM
There were midwinter conditions at K-Mart, guns blazing, and soft snow everywhere. For $69 I'm easy. Might be a pass holder , but unlike marriage, I can sleep around w/out consequences.

win
12-02-2012, 06:30 PM
There were midwinter conditions at K-Mart, guns blazing, and soft snow everywhere. For $69 I'm easy. Might be a pass holder , but unlike marriage, I can sleep around w/out consequences.

If snow was being made at Killington today, the temperatures had to be very different than what we saw at Sugarbush today.

HowieT2
12-02-2012, 08:13 PM
[QUOTE=SkiVideoGuy;116493]Saw a post today on FB from Stowe about their purchase of 325 HKD snowguns and the output they got yesterday. Stowe gets more snow on average every year already. Now they have 325 of these super efficient guns. It seems the gap in snowmaking prowess is growing between Sugarbush and Stowe. Killington seems to have awoken from their slumber with new management. Jay/Burke is becoming a monster. The SB long range plan does not exist in a vacuum. Other mountains do things that warrant a response. Demand for RiceBrook is a decision by someone to commit to the MRV or commit to Stowe or Jay/Burke or K. Snowmaking is part of that decision if they plan on spending time at their vacation home for Thanksgiving or Christmas.

Maybe we can't get more water up the hill right now but perhaps these guns can make more snow with a given amount of water or make more snow than the existing guns at a given wet bulb temp? I'm by no means an expert in snow tech but from PA, it seems that others are pulling away in terms of ability to lay down the white. I don't know how many HKD's SB has or where they are permanently mounted but maybe it's time to outfit the slopes that are priority for early season with these babies.

You guys up there on site can sift through the marketing hype better than I from 6 hours away. With no snowmaking this week, maybe somebody up there could ski SB and Stowe and report in on a comparison of the snow.

What do you guys think?[/QUOTE
]

I think sb invested in hkd guns some years ago. They are all over. The snologic guns that sb bought last year are much more efficient than the hkd guns and more expensive. I think Win addressed this earlier in this thread.

HowieT2
12-02-2012, 08:17 PM
There were midwinter conditions at K-Mart, guns blazing, and soft snow everywhere. For $69 I'm easy. Might be a pass holder , but unlike marriage, I can sleep around w/out consequences.

Just as long as you dont come back with any desease.

Assume you were referring to yesterday. It was 40f when i got up this morning. Ran errands and stacked wood.

win
12-03-2012, 12:26 PM
Yes. We did invest in some HKDs a couple of years ago. Everyone is now focused on making better low E guns, so we will continue to invest in more in future years. I think everyone saw what the Snowlogics can do when they get to stage 5 and use only 5CFM.

boze
12-03-2012, 05:43 PM
Yes. We did invest in some HKDs a couple of years ago. Everyone is now focused on making better low E guns, so we will continue to invest in more in future years. I think everyone saw what the Snowlogics can do when they get to stage 5 and use only 5CFM.

Gotta love that, snologics running at "stage 5"
Sounds like "ludicrous speed" from Space Balls
Bring on the cold...

shadyjay
12-03-2012, 06:07 PM
Friday night we had the logics running on max... step 6. In a matter of a few hours, a huge pile was created on the back side of Gate House lodge. The amount of snow they put out is quite impressive in cold temps, especially with how little air they use.

HowieT2
12-03-2012, 07:36 PM
This one goes to 11.

MntMan4Bush
12-04-2012, 12:40 PM
JWT was probably referring to Saturday with regard to Killington. I was also there also and they were blasting snow. Superstar had a gun every 5 to 10 feet and it was like I was in a snow globe in addition to the natural stuff (albeit not huge accumulations, but nice dressings) coming down. The snow that was being made was light and piling up into nice bumps that felt and skied like natural snow.

Say what you want about natural vs man made, but when it is made right it skis very well. I know SB can't keep up with Killington for the number of trails open and pure snow making power, but I think the quality of snow making is just better there. I don't know how many times I've come around a corner with a wet gun blasting me in the face or spraying out water and it's in the teens at the Bush.

I skied opening day at SB and OG was down right dangerous. I've never seen snow made into such a sheet of ice. A little fluff on the extreme edges, but by noon it was unedgeable glass. Of course smiles were on everyone's faces as we were out skiing and why gripe to the nice greeters and lifties. It's not their fault so when they ask how my day is going it's always "great". However let's be honest with what we are skiing on and put the excitement of being outside and seeing cold weather friends again.

I will say that I skied SB on Sunday and it was really nice. The snow was corn soft, but it was unfortunately due to the weather more than anything else. Reports from friends who skied at SB on Saturday as opposed to K Mart indicated Saturday was good, but I'll put money on the fact that Killington was better. In fact I did as a season pass holder going south. I don't enjoy an extra hour drive in the AM when I'm 10 minutes from SB or shelling out money for a ticket, but me and quite a few other SB pass holders did and have been doing so for sometime. Now it may not seem like such a loss to SB since we already have a pass, but there is some lost revenue in food and beverage happening I'm sure.

So you don't have to have 30 or 40 trails open like Killington. We get you don't have the same revenue coming in. I was happy to see OG and Jester open for opening day, but how about a little more attention to the quality of the snow coming out. I don't know what it takes, but I've seen good snow making and I feel we are behind in that department. Sorry. Been reading this thread too long now and not saying anything, but had to voice my opinion and while a few people sitting on the Superstar chair with me may keep quiet, they were anything but as we were driving down to the dreaded south.

gostan
12-04-2012, 01:50 PM
The snow quality at SB last Saturday was fabulous. Sure, the MT reported 6 inches Thursday night, but I found it was mostly man made and the skiing was fun. The whales were a blast. Upper OG was a completely different animal than it was on opening day, as it was winched and skied about as good as one could ask for. I do agree that OG was a nightmare on opening day, but since nobody can remember when SB was open top to bottom prior to Thanksgiving, I opted to enjoy the positives and ignore the negatives. No doubt, There is always someplace better, especially early season. Enjoy your forays down South to Killington! I opt for Stowe when I desire a different experience early season. Or, I get on a winged vehicle. Variety definitely makes one's ski season more interesting.

HowieT2
12-04-2012, 02:07 PM
fwiw-Win mentioned that SB blew 50 million gallons of water in november. I read on another site from someone with knowledge at stowe that they blew 100 million gallons. just sayin'

Hawk
12-04-2012, 04:21 PM
I guess when you are constantly fed bread and water, a hot dog is awsome. So when you get to finally try the Filet Mignon, you will then all understand. ;-) Expectations have finnally been sufficiently lowered so the masses will not rebel. I have to hand it to them, they do great marketing.

HowieT2
12-05-2012, 08:55 AM
I don't understand why we keep going in circles. I think we have established the facts here pretty well. Sugarbush does not have the snowmaking firepower there is elsewhere. We should be thankful we have snowmaking, even if it isn't the best and most powerful. The pass holders at MRG likely won't see much open before Christmas unless they are very lucky. SB was open t2b on opening day. Who knows the last time they were t2b opening day.

It is also very apparent that management wants to stick with the current approach of putting down a solid base, and then allowing mother nature to take its course. I think we all realize that more snowmaking increases are going to be necessary, but for the time being, management still seems to like this approach, and so far, their approach has seemed to work. People continue to come to Sugarbush, continue to invest in second homes, and until last year, Sugarbush had seen steady increases in skier visits. I am 100% with all of you that dislike having to go somewhere else because the SB early season offering isn't necessarily up to par with other areas. I am also 100% certain that the management hates to see that people are going elsewhere with their business, even if they have already received their revenue from them in the form of a season pass. Unfortunately, I think it comes down to what is ultimately best for the majority, not the minority. That leaves us hardcore skiers and riders in the minority. Once again, I'm not saying that its acceptable, just that its a fact.

We just need to look at what is realistic, and what is not. Is there something we would all like to see? Is there always going to be something to complain about? Absolutely. I think that changes to the mountain, its ideology, and its infrastructure, are directly related to the weather. If we continue to see winters where the snow doesn't fall before Christmas, and they struggle to have a profitable season because they missed out on crucial revenue because everyone else went somewhere else with a greater offering, I think we will see a change in the snowmaking system and plan. Until then, it is unlikely that anything will change along those lines. There will still be the yearly upgrades, but not the huge capital project that is necessary to boost the system.

All that being said, the best way to offer a better surface on the terrain that is open, is clearly grooming. I know that all groomers and their operators are not created equal, but for another pass or two, done by a skilled operator, you can easily increase the longevity and quality of the skiing surface. I still haven't been fortunate enough to make it to SB this season while they have been open since obligations have kept me elsewhere, but if the snow surface is lacking in quality, not quantity, that should be one of the easier situations to remedy without a significant increase in operating costs.

welcome to skimrv. we do this every season. it will end when they get north lynx open and we are all exhausted from skiing the whole mountain.

Hawk
12-05-2012, 09:31 AM
A couple of things that I think you miss the mark with:
- In the end I realize that they will do what they do. This is my opinion and is constructive criticism based on my observations. These opinions come from watching a little known area go from a local’s only place to one of the biggest and widely visited areas in the east. I will not relocate anywhere else because of this "Flaw" in their philosophy as snowmaking is not the reason I came here. I just see something that can make this place so much better for the general skiing population.
- Grooming is not the answer for better surfaces especially when it rains on them. You have to resurface with new snow.
- People understand that the quality of the Snowmaking here is not that good. I know this because I have many skier friends (100+) at different mountains that refuse to come here or have stopped coming because of this. The common line is, "I will see you when it snows".
- The increased skier visits are a product of good marketing, good winters (sans last winter), great service and a great new village that got a lot of Press coverage. I would bet this has reached its peak.
- Snow quality it what brings new people and keeps them coming and hard core people are not the driving force for snow making. It's the beginner/Intermediates that love smooth silky blues.
- Snowmaking is Key to quick recovery and continuous great conditions. Our conditions this year have been OK but not that great comparatively. I’m not saying to open everything all at once and just pound the snow out. I am saying blow key trails and keep them pristine. Just a little faster and better. Not an enormous upgrade but a moderate one that gives us the ability to get it done nicely. It is the only thing that Sugarbush lacks to be the greatest.
- In the end that is what separates us and keeps us from getting over the hump. I love it here and relocated here for the snow from the sky, but refuse to stick my head in the sand. Saying we opened top to bottom day one is a joke. It was cold early this year and others did it better, with more trails and better conditions. Day ticket sales that could have paid for the snowmaking went to other places because no one expects SB to have good snowmaking. We need to change that perception to grow the resort to where management wants it. Frilly lodging and base lodges are not going to do that.
And you are right. No more going in circles. That will be my last piece on this subject.....this year. See you on the slopes dudes and dudets.

Look I love this place and only want what is best. If you said that you don't understand the value of snowmaking then fine. I can understand that people that have not seen it and watched the effect of it over time would not understand.

MntMan4Bush
12-05-2012, 09:56 AM
The reason we keep going in circles is because much like Nascar this place is a circular track. We keep coming back year after year. Get used to it. It doesn't mean that we can't continue to voice our issues and concerns. I've given up on the argument that they don't blow as much as Killington, Sunday River or many other places. We don't have the infrastructure or the money to spend like they do. Sure I get that.

However as I thumbed through my last issue of SB Magazine I read through the article on how great the snow making was at SB and how well trained the team is and the quality of the snow they make. That is where I am calling BS and to me that's something that can be fixed with minimal investment. I.e. Learn to use the gear you have. Sure buying some more fan guns would be great, but when I ski down and see a snow maker walk by a gun that looks like a garden hose spraying water and not doing anything then I start to question the system as a whole. At Killington they have teams going up and down the lines all day long making adjustments. At SB we drag hoses from one place to the next, set it up, spray and walk away.I'm sure people check the line (or say they do) but I don't see how sometimes when there's a gun aimed at the woods glazing a tree and no one's doing anything about it for hours at a time.

As for the argument about being top to bottom this year. Good job SB. I'm happy that they were able to get it, but rather than comparing it to prior years let's compare it to other mountains which is a real litmus test. When you only look at previous years then weather plays as much a factor as anything else. When you look at other mountains you get a level playing field with weather.

HowieT2
12-05-2012, 10:00 AM
A couple of things that I think you miss the mark with:
- In the end I realize that they will do what they do. This is my opinion and is constructive criticism based on my observations. These opinions come from watching a little known area go from a local’s only place to one of the biggest and widely visited areas in the east. I will not relocate anywhere else because of this "Flaw" in their philosophy as snowmaking is not the reason I came here. I just see something that can make this place so much better for the general skiing population.
- Grooming is not the answer for better surfaces especially when it rains on them. You have to resurface with new snow.
- People understand that the quality of the Snowmaking here is not that good. I know this because I have many skier friends (100+) at different mountains that refuse to come here or have stopped coming because of this. The common line is, "I will see you when it snows".
- The increased skier visits are a product of good marketing, good winters (sans last winter), great service and a great new village that got a lot of Press coverage. I would bet this has reached its peak.
- Snow quality it what brings new people and keeps them coming and hard core people are not the driving force for snow making. It's the beginner/Intermediates that love smooth silky blues.
- Snowmaking is Key to quick recovery and continuous great conditions. Our conditions this year have been OK but not that great comparatively. I’m not saying to open everything all at once and just pound the snow out. I am saying blow key trails and keep them pristine. Just a little faster and better. Not an enormous upgrade but a moderate one that gives us the ability to get it done nicely. It is the only thing that Sugarbush lacks to be the greatest.
- In the end that is what separates us and keeps us from getting over the hump. I love it here and relocated here for the snow from the sky, but refuse to stick my head in the sand. Saying we opened top to bottom day one is a joke. It was cold early this year and others did it better, with more trails and better conditions. Day ticket sales that could have paid for the snowmaking went to other places because no one expects SB to have good snowmaking. We need to change that perception to grow the resort to where management wants it. Frilly lodging and base lodges are not going to do that.
And you are right. No more going in circles. That will be my last piece on this subject.....this year. See you on the slopes dudes and dudets.

Look I love this place and only want what is best. If you said that you don't understand the value of snowmaking then fine. I can understand that people that have not seen it and watched the effect of it over time would not understand.


Kumbaya

Hawk
12-05-2012, 11:53 AM
Kumbaya

What's that a city in Africa?

Oh I get it. I should just shut up and kiss the ring. ;-)

Nothing to see here move along.

boze
12-05-2012, 12:48 PM
Fully agree the garden hose issue. Nothing raises bigger questions in my mind about the approach taken and avoiding the obvious issues when I cruise past a gun pissing watery goo out its nozzle. Can't remember a season I've not seen that more than a few times, and all too often for a couple laps. Elsewhere it's more common to see a crew member checking things via snowmobile frequently - as in every other time I'm lapping a trail. That may call for a bit more payroll and fuel but the trail glazing that would be avoided is a huge upside.

HowieT2
12-05-2012, 01:13 PM
What's that a city in Africa?

Oh I get it. I should just shut up and kiss the ring. ;-)

Nothing to see here move along.

no, you were getting all mushy with the SB love.

Hawk
12-06-2012, 07:43 AM
RD, I am not sure how much experience you have at SR but maybe we should talk. I can point you in the right direction for some lesser traveled places there. I have years of experience at that place and a good history of "maintenence". There are also a couple of other Sugarbush transplants there that ski regularly. Did you take a job at the mountain?

win
12-07-2012, 11:48 AM
Not a great week for snowmaking. The warm weather culminated in almost an inch of rain Wednesday night so when we were able to turn the guns back on early Thursday we had to resurface most of the trails where we had already made snow and which were in great condition last weekend but had damage from the Monday weather. Two words sum upour feelings today - frustrating and expensive. We did have a bit over 24 hours of snowmaking and all the trails that were open last weekend will be so this weekend, but the conditions will not be as good but they were last weekend but will be OK. I skied lower organgrinder this morning and it had some nice soft newly made snow. Uppergrinder should soften to the later Saturday and Sunday. Tomorrow's weather looks funky, Sunday looks better and then we are in for a warm wet Monday. After that it does look like the pattern may change and cold will come in and stay longer and we might even start to see some snow accumulation later in the week. It looks like we may have to resurface existing trails again but after that we should be able to expand by next weekend if the forecast holds up.

HowieT2
12-07-2012, 11:58 AM
Not a great week for snowmaking. The warm weather culminated in almost an inch of rain Wednesday night so when we were able to turn the guns back on early Thursday we had to resurface most of the trails where we had already made snow and which were in great condition last weekend but had damage from the Monday weather. Two words sum upour feelings today - frustrating and expensive. We did have a bit over 24 hours of snowmaking and all the trails that were open last weekend will be so this weekend, but the conditions will not be as good but they were last weekend but will be OK. I skied lower organgrinder this morning and it had some nice soft newly made snow. Uppergrinder should soften to the later Saturday and Sunday. Tomorrow's weather looks funky, Sunday looks better and then we are in for a warm wet Monday. After that it does look like the pattern may change and cold will come in and stay longer and we might even start to see some snow accumulation later in the week. It looks like we may have to resurface existing trails again but after that we should be able to expand by next weekend if the forecast holds up.

Hang in there Win. Ullr is just flushing all the funk out of the system before delighting us with full on winter before the holidays. big big big winter incoming!

win
12-08-2012, 12:24 PM
Nice soft snow today with the exception of Upper Organgrinder. However, the freestyle team was enjoying the firm moguls up there. I preferred the soft ones on Downspout and Lower organgrinder.

HowieT2
12-08-2012, 03:57 PM
Good day today. The hordes of 20 something's were nowhere to be found. Fog was more of hinderence for me than any snow conditions. I need to get yellow lenses for my goggles.

gostan
12-09-2012, 06:23 AM
Good day today. The hordes of 20 something's were nowhere to be found. Fog was more of hinderence for me than any snow conditions. I need to get yellow lenses for my goggles.
This 60 something took the weekend off after three consecutive early season weekends. Decided to stay home west of Boston & party.. with the 20 something's.......actually to catch up with things/work weekend. Here's hoping that the rain that I just saw on the weather coming into Boston tonight & tomorrow is white at elevation.

win
12-09-2012, 12:12 PM
The weather tonight and tomorrow is going to give us everything according to our forecast: snow, sleet, freezing rain, rain and hopefully ending with some snow. Unfortunately, it looks like the temperatures will get into the 40s when the heaviest rain comes, so we are likely to lose snow. Early Tuesday morning the temperatures will fall and we will be back into snowmaking and it looks like we can keep the guns running all week - at least at the higher elevations during the days and hopefully get low as well during some of the days and nights.

gostan
12-10-2012, 03:42 PM
http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/2012/12/another-week-of-generally-uninteresting.html

win
12-12-2012, 03:01 PM
Roger Hill had a ery different view this morning. First storm on Sunday with 3-6". Another mid next week. Hope isn't a method but we are hoping and blowing snow in the meantime.

jwt
12-13-2012, 09:53 AM
Well Win, can't believe I'm saying this, but I am for Hope and Change right now! It will snow, we will make turns, and the woods will be skied. We want happy skiers as much as you do, 'cause we are them.

Here is to a great year on and off the mountain.

cmoore
12-14-2012, 08:49 AM
Blowing snow confirmed...

HowieT2
12-15-2012, 08:59 AM
Dont forget that a good bit of snowmaking goes into mt ellen. So when that comes online, the trail count shoots up. If the weather cooperates this week, it will be a rope dropping fiesta.

shadyjay
12-15-2012, 10:08 AM
I'm looking down towards the parking lot right now and see the heli lot almost full, at 10am. Weekends have been pretty busy judging by the cars. Weekdays have been quiet.

After just over 24 hours of snowmaking, Birdland opened. And it was Thursday AM when Ripcord was lit up... now its Saturday AM and that's open. Last night's colder temps helped. Birdland really came into it quickly... hard to believe the top half was bare, and last night at ~ 9pm, I was stepping down into some areas up past my knees. Last year... Birdland snowmaking took place in early January.

win
12-15-2012, 12:51 PM
The snowmaker team out did themselves on Ripcord and it should be even better tomorrow morning after we stay on it all night again.

ReefBum
12-15-2012, 03:09 PM
Birdland and RC were excellent today. And the corduroy in the AM was great.

gostan
12-16-2012, 05:13 PM
Work commitments kept me west of Boston this weekend for the 2nd weekend in a row. How was the skiing/riding?

SkiVideoGuy
12-17-2012, 01:15 PM
Is something going on with the snowmaking system or are we just not updating the live lift/trail report? I haven't seen any snowmaking listed for a day or two and temps seems within the range and a couple of inches of natural coming down? What's up?

shadyjay
12-17-2012, 05:09 PM
We made snow last night on Valley House Traverse, Murphys, and some spot locales on Birdland and Lower OG at HGT. These efforts led to the opening of HGT and MG today, but since VHT doesn't connect to anywhere, there's no point in opening it. Fortunately we had temps all night and allowed the guns to stay on right until dawn.

ml242
12-17-2012, 06:10 PM
Reverse traverse doesn't really go anywhere. It increases the trail count even though it only runs from bird land to jester and it's really a partial opening, maybe 8 percent of the trail. It's about 400' of trail. It does add some acreage though because the iced up trees should be falling in the next year. Why the guns were turned off I don't know. It was under 32 even at noon before it changed to snainsleet. Did anyone see if K or Stowe were blowing?

What really leaves me scratching my head are the whales. In two intersections (birdland murphys+bottom of ripcord) piles of snow have been built up but not rolled. This is odd because there are also water bars very close that should be filled. These whales are even more annoying because the snow has to be spread out to fill the mountain bike ribbons which seem to be growing in number every year... that are topped with large rocks and dirt. They're at least on my mind because I can see them.

I hadn't skied SB yet because I was waiting for natural. At the price the pass is obviously I would expect a lot because these are my complaints from a single day and I've been playing the field for the past few years.

Btw: the ticket scanners are working "better" this year but the chairs need to get loaded, especially on a pow day. And, If you've said hi to the liftie every fifteen minutes for four hours....

Cut to 3pm: I asked the guy how many runs I had. He said it didn't count the runs. What do they do anyway?

So that's my day 1 rant from my phone. Hope there's room here for constructive criticism among the endless rhythm of the golf clap.

Hope that this stays snow to end the early season complaints here and everywhere else. wishing everyone a great and snowy new year and laps at Mrg and castle rock promptly! Lets go white Xmas!!!

shadyjay
12-17-2012, 06:57 PM
Keep on forgetting that Reverse Traverse actually ends on Middle Jester... I always used to think it ended on Murphy's or Birdland, but forget about that last little chute over.

Snowmaking was still taking place on Ripcord and Murphy's last night. It takes X amount of hours to allow the snow to settle and the water drain out before its groomed out. Otherwise, if you push it sooner, it will turn to a sheet of ice.

As a former lifty for 4 years, I feel your pain with the scanners. The scanners don't count runs... just number of days you've skied. There is an "app" for that, though. The Sugarbush app logs every run you take and records your speed. You can even input your runs into Google Earth.

I was so tempted to go out and ride today but after working last night, my need for sleep was greater, though I found out that the rest of my crew fought the sleep urge to ride and that it was really good. Oh well, there's always next time!

SkiVideoGuy
12-18-2012, 09:00 AM
"Live" lift/Trail Report - I don't know what the social media folks at SB think it's like to be from PA where it's raining and 47 degrees right now. Some people (me and I'm sure some others) get up in the morning, pour the coffee and get online. My routine includes the Snow Report, the webcam and the "Live" Lift/Trail Report. It's my way of living vicariously in VT through the website. If you are going to call it a "Live" lift/trail report then you need make it live. I'm sure you made snow somewhere in the past couple days but not according to the lift/trail report. No mention of snowmaking either in the Snow Report the past 2-3 days.

If you are going to have a webcam, how about actually using the pan/tilt/zoom functionality and point it somewhere different every couple hours. Takes somebody about 12 seconds to do that. Makes a world of difference to people 7 hours away who wish they were there. If you think the idea of a webcam has merit, then why not fully build out the concept and have another over at ME and 1 each at midmountain and at the peaks? Here's a cheaper way....Take a GoPro and suction cup it to the window at Allen's Lodge and the Glen House for a few minutes each morning. Move it up to the lift shack at the top of Heaven's Gate and the Summit Quad. Then send the camera down the hill with a patroller to post the video online on the webcam page. For that matter, you could suction cup one of those to the inside of the windshield on one of the groomers and post that.

For today, maybe get the live back in Live Lift/Trail Report.

FYI, we will ski SB about 10 days this year so I'm not just some 1 off ticket purchaser nit picking. Have been coming 15 years and will be coming for another 30 and hopefully buying.

ml242
12-18-2012, 09:23 AM
"Live" lift/Trail Report - I don't know what the social media folks at SB think it's like to be from PA where it's raining and 47 degrees right now. Some people (me and I'm sure some others) get up in the morning, pour the coffee and get online. My routine includes the Snow Report, the webcam and the "Live" Lift/Trail Report. It's my way of living vicariously in VT through the website. If you are going to call it a "Live" lift/trail report then you need make it live. I'm sure you made snow somewhere in the past couple days but not according to the lift/trail report. No mention of snowmaking either in the Snow Report the past 2-3 days.

If you are going to have a webcam, how about actually using the pan/tilt/zoom functionality and point it somewhere different every couple hours. Takes somebody about 12 seconds to do that. Makes a world of difference to people 7 hours away who wish they were there. If you think the idea of a webcam has merit, then why not fully build out the concept and have another over at ME and 1 each at midmountain and at the peaks? Here's a cheaper way....Take a GoPro and suction cup it to the window at Allen's Lodge and the Glen House for a few minutes each morning. Move it up to the lift shack at the top of Heaven's Gate and the Summit Quad. Then send the camera down the hill with a patroller to post the video online on the webcam page. For that matter, you could suction cup one of those to the inside of the windshield on one of the groomers and post that.

For today, maybe get the live back in Live Lift/Trail Report.

FYI, we will ski SB about 10 days this year so I'm not just some 1 off ticket purchaser nit picking. Have been coming 15 years and will be coming for another 30 and hopefully buying.

Oh yea, we got another howlie!

Considering that I've skied more than a thousand days at the bush as my home mountain I dibt think im a day tripping nit picker. What I do have though is an eye for VALUE and recent on mountain experience at many other hills to compare my recent SB experiences to. And I don't see anyone leaving piles of snow at intersections. If the snow coming out of the guns is too wet then there probably wasn't enough air in it. But then what would be the excuse for ice layer already installed on OG and DS?

But yeah, this is probably just nit picking and not constructive glad handling of the mountain ops teams. Anyway, patrol isn't that busy so they can probably just grab some shovels and fix this stuff, right?

As far as the webcam goes, it's been talked about before.

Want a live weather report? It is 35 degrees and alternating rain and snow staring at spring fling right now. Snow when I started this post and raining now. Time for more coffee. Oh wait, back to flakes!

HowieT2
12-18-2012, 10:19 AM
meltdown city this morning. everyone step away from the ledge.
I'm sitting in my office T-4 days till i head up. absolutely putrid outside. trying to think good thoughts of wet snow forming a base and backend upslope powder. serenity now.

SkiVideoGuy
12-18-2012, 12:23 PM
ml242 - I don't need your help with what it's doing on Spring Fling. I can see that on the static webcam. That's my point regarding the webcam. I come here so I can hear from you guys on what it's doing elsewhere on the mountain. It's great that the core skiers of the mountain have this forum to chat. It's great to have a season pass and have SB be your home hill. Congrats. Wish I were you.

The Snow Report, the "Live" Lift/Trail Report, the webcam are not for you, they are for the people who live in Boston, NY, PA and elsewhere far far away. It's not that difficult to do it right. I'm just calling them out on their C- performance on using social media and web to get the word out.

I won't be there for the first time till February and my week there is mid-March after I get back from Sun Valley. Week after I'm there I'm at Stowe for a week too. By the time I get to SB, the trail count is 111/111, I just like to watch it build WHICH I'M TRYING TO DO FROM PA. I like SB and have liked it for the 15 years in a row I've been coming there. I don't have to come there. I could just as easily spend my time at the Canyons in UT, Tahoe and Sun Valley. I spend money on tickets, dinners, accomodations, beer, cider, cheese, maple syrup in VT so guess what, I get to have an opinion on the place. SB is a business. In these aspects, there needs to be some improvement in their performance.

There are plenty of good weather tools starting with Single Chair WB so I'm not very concerned with their weather reporting integration on the website.

BTW - before you say webcams cost a lot, you can monetize the webcam viewing page(s) with ads for local lodging, restaurants, ski shops, Big Picture Theatre, etc. It could be done in a revenue neutral way. I know what the Bosch Cameras cost as I've been a part of installing about 100 of them in our city.

HowieT2
12-18-2012, 12:39 PM
ml242 - I don't need your help with what it's doing on Spring Fling. I can see that on the static webcam. That's my point regarding the webcam. I come here so I can hear from you guys on what it's doing elsewhere on the mountain. It's great that the core skiers of the mountain have this forum to chat. It's great to have a season pass and have SB be your home hill. Congrats. Wish I were you.

The Snow Report, the "Live" Lift/Trail Report, the webcam are not for you, they are for the people who live in Boston, NY, PA and elsewhere far far away. It's not that difficult to do it right. I'm just calling them out on their C- performance on using social media and web to get the word out.

I won't be there for the first time till February and my week there is mid-March after I get back from Sun Valley. Week after I'm there I'm at Stowe for a week too. By the time I get to SB, the trail count is 111/111, I just like to watch it build WHICH I'M TRYING TO DO FROM PA. I like SB and have liked it for the 15 years in a row I've been coming there. I don't have to come there. I could just as easily spend my time at the Canyons in UT, Tahoe and Sun Valley. I spend money on tickets, dinners, accomodations, beer, cider, cheese, maple syrup in VT so guess what, I get to have an opinion on the place. SB is a business. In these aspects, there needs to be some improvement in their performance.

There are plenty of good weather tools starting with Single Chair WB so I'm not very concerned with their weather reporting integration on the website.

BTW - before you say webcams cost a lot, you can monetize the webcam viewing page(s) with ads for local lodging, restaurants, ski shops, Big Picture Theatre, etc. It could be done in a revenue neutral way. I know what the Bosch Cameras cost as I've been a part of installing about 100 of them in our city.

relax man. I dont think anyone is arguing with you. If you search the site, you'll find that we begged for a webcam for years before it was installed. and since, there have been numerous requests for more webcams up on the mtn. in fact, I think there was a skit on SNL "more webcam, more webcam".
when you go to sunvalley go to spaghetti western in hailey and tell Larry and Jen I sent you.

pcampbell
12-18-2012, 02:22 PM
Cut to 3pm: I asked the guy how many runs I had. He said it didn't count the runs. What do they do anyway?



haha how about an LED board that flashes how many runs you have done when they scan your ticket ;)

Benski
12-18-2012, 03:05 PM
"Live" lift/Trail Report - I don't know what the social media folks at SB think it's like to be from PA where it's raining and 47 degrees right now. Some people (me and I'm sure some others) get up in the morning, pour the coffee and get online. My routine includes the Snow Report, the webcam and the "Live" Lift/Trail Report. It's my way of living vicariously in VT through the website. If you are going to call it a "Live" lift/trail report then you need make it live. I'm sure you made snow somewhere in the past couple days but not according to the lift/trail report. No mention of snowmaking either in the Snow Report the past 2-3 days.

If you are going to have a webcam, how about actually using the pan/tilt/zoom functionality and point it somewhere different every couple hours. Takes somebody about 12 seconds to do that. Makes a world of difference to people 7 hours away who wish they were there. If you think the idea of a webcam has merit, then why not fully build out the concept and have another over at ME and 1 each at midmountain and at the peaks? Here's a cheaper way....Take a GoPro and suction cup it to the window at Allen's Lodge and the Glen House for a few minutes each morning. Move it up to the lift shack at the top of Heaven's Gate and the Summit Quad. Then send the camera down the hill with a patroller to post the video online on the webcam page. For that matter, you could suction cup one of those to the inside of the windshield on one of the groomers and post that.

For today, maybe get the live back in Live Lift/Trail Report.

FYI, we will ski SB about 10 days this year so I'm not just some 1 off ticket purchaser nit picking. Have been coming 15 years and will be coming for another 30 and hopefully buying.
Can we also have another cam so we can see another part of the mountain and a light so we can see how hard it is snowing at night.

gostan
12-18-2012, 03:45 PM
Like Howie says, a CAM on the upper mountain has been discussed ad infinitum. I actually emailed Win in October asking him if there were any thoughts/plans about installing a CAM at Allyn's Lodge or at top of Gatehouse Chair. Win indicated that this will probably be done some day. But that the issue is that they do not have the correct fiber running from base up the mountain yet. So, since the mountain no longer looks for volunteers to thin/prune the trails in Slidebrook, I would not hold my breath about an upper mountain CAM, anytime soon, even if you happen to have a three thousand foot roll of fiber sitting around your house or business going unused.

Hawk
12-18-2012, 05:04 PM
FYI - They leave the snow whales for a day or two so they dry out. They groom out better when they do this. It's like curing the snow. ;-) I am sure you guys won't believe this but I actually had a blast on Ripchord this weekend. No complaints. That was some fun skiing. Nice job on the opening. It is my opinion that those old tower guns do a way better job than those new phangled guns any day. I am headed up for 3 days this weekend and then from Christmas night until the new year. Hope to see many of you then.

shadyjay
12-18-2012, 10:10 PM
There are pros and cons to both types of guns. The towers make good snow but since they are up high, are subject to more effect of the wind. The new guns we got last year, the Snow Logics, make descent snow in the right temps and use next to nothing for air. So even when we are close to being maxed on air, we can light up a bunch of SLs. They are more difficult to move, however, so generally stay on lower elevation or flat terrain. This year, we've used them on Allyn's Traverse, portions of Lower Downspout, Gondolier, Easy Rider, Sugarbear Road & Forest, Easy Rider, and throughout the base area. The snow they make is often much more dense as well.

Gonna do my best to get out for some turns tomorrow, and Thursday, and Friday, before my next shift week starts. No idea what the next plan of attack will be. My guess would be either Hot Shot or Snowball-Fling, seeing as we've got VHT almost all set to go.

HowieT2
12-19-2012, 08:43 AM
There are pros and cons to both types of guns. The towers make good snow but since they are up high, are subject to more effect of the wind. The new guns we got last year, the Snow Logics, make descent snow in the right temps and use next to nothing for air. So even when we are close to being maxed on air, we can light up a bunch of SLs. They are more difficult to move, however, so generally stay on lower elevation or flat terrain. This year, we've used them on Allyn's Traverse, portions of Lower Downspout, Gondolier, Easy Rider, Sugarbear Road & Forest, Easy Rider, and throughout the base area. The snow they make is often much more dense as well.

Gonna do my best to get out for some turns tomorrow, and Thursday, and Friday, before my next shift week starts. No idea what the next plan of attack will be. My guess would be either Hot Shot or Snowball-Fling, seeing as we've got VHT almost all set to go.

I thought I saw a couple of the snowlogic guns mounted on poles.

gostan
12-19-2012, 09:42 AM
The new snow reporter cracks me up. "Unfrozen drips" ????

shadyjay
12-19-2012, 02:59 PM
I thought I saw a couple of the snowlogic guns mounted on poles.

There are two mounted on towers... one on Lower OG, the other was on Easy Rider. The Lower OG one did really well.

ml242
12-19-2012, 10:08 PM
haha how about an LED board that flashes how many runs you have done when they scan your ticket ;)

Are they still scanning the tickets? Maybe if it was more of a wand with a checkered flag, that would be really fun.

Skivideoguy - No pass for me this year, maybe next. Two trips out west instead for me too. Sorry if I got a little defensive there. I wish i kept my complaints snowmaking-grooming focused, too, but I just have so many suggestions for improvements aka complaints for the mountain to address in one thread. Hope you get some good days in and that they've knocked down the whales by then.

Hawk - Ripcord was very good where the man made mixed with the natural snow. Hopefully some more will fall to fix this thread for another year so I can get back on track discussing the ticket scanning, zany building projects, the nasty smoking ghetto on the deck between the Bravo and GHL, and then later in the season why the Valley House isn't open, north being closed too early, lack of resurfacing on deathspout, snowboarders, the bike trails carved into the face of the mountain, the microburst that was never cleaned up by Egan's, slidebrook not running midweek, death and taxes.

And yet it still is a GREAT GREAT mountain.

ReefBum
12-20-2012, 07:33 AM
According to the website they are now making snow on Snowball and they also have guns going on the top half of Spring Fling.....it also looks like patrol was packing down Spillsville yesterday so that is a good sign.

pcampbell
12-20-2012, 12:44 PM
It might be possible to do a wireless 802.11 link from Allyn's to down below :)

SkiVideoGuy
12-20-2012, 04:57 PM
ml242 - No worries, no offense taken. I feel the same way. Love the mountain, only want to see things improve for everyone, the ski every day pass holder to the once a year weekend visitor. I have some background with wireless IP cameras so I know it could be done with a relay or two to get down the hill to the lodges. A little site line analysis when I'm up in february. Gotta go. Happy weekend!

Benski
12-20-2012, 05:50 PM
It might be possible to do a wireless 802.11 link from Allyn's to down below :)
Its way too far.

win
12-21-2012, 11:16 AM
ML242. The microburst hasn't been cleaned up because the USFS wants it that way and it's their land.