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RopeTow
01-16-2012, 12:22 PM
I'm sure this subject has been discussed a million times. So here goes a million and one.

My best friend is an MRG shareholder and season pass holder. I'm a Sugar Direct card holder (and previous SB season passholder). My friend never wants to come ski with us at SB, because he has already "paid" for his day at MRG. I feel the same way in reverse. Isnt there some way smart guys and computers can work out some kind of sharing and/or discount policy so that we can ski together a few days a year?

Couldn't MRG agree to accept my Sugar Direct Card free or at a discount some number of times a year? Couldn't SB agree to accept an MRG season pass at free or at a discount some number of times a year? Or isn't there some even better solution? Doesn't somebody have an old roommate who majored in economics at MIT who can figure this out?

RopeTow

random_ski_guy
01-17-2012, 10:18 AM
Ahhh RopeTow, sounds like you are looking for the economists at MIT to discover a money tree.

Hawk
01-17-2012, 10:57 AM
I was told that there have been discussions in the past but I am not sure why it never worked out. I would think that because the price of the tickets are so different it would be hard to figure out the revenue sharing. Also if I was an MRG skier, why on earth would I want the whole SB crowd at my hill. Lines are long enough on the weekend. Imagine what they would be like if it were part of the SB pass. YIKES!!!!

I would suggest you buy a Mad Card. They sell them before Christmas for $100 and you get 3 days of skiing. That is a great deal. Your MRG friends are out of luck as far as a low cost ticket to Sugarbush unless they have connections.

MntMan4Bush
01-17-2012, 12:13 PM
REI offers discount tickets to Sugarbush. I can't remember how much a discount, but we've picked them up for friends and it was good enough deal to remember it existed.

noski
01-17-2012, 02:12 PM
There is www.SkiTheValley.net Ski The Valley Passport that is the chamber's. Best deal around for those who want to choose where they want to ski. Include MRG, SB and Ole's on a single ticket and midweek freebies tossed in. Heaven and Earth moved just a little during this negotiation.

RopeTow
01-21-2012, 11:09 AM
This is all theoretical, but here are two concrete suggestions to make skiing at the two great ski areas in our valley cheaper, easier and more fun:

1 Why don't MRG and Sugarbush (and other vendors/merchants,too, if they are interested) team up to issue a "Valley Card" providing discounts on lift tickets and other products and services in the Valley. The Valley Card would function like a Sugar Direct Card, would have a credit card feature (like the current Sugar Direct card) and would be useable across the Valley for discounts. Most importantly, it would allow for hassle-free ski-on to any lift in the valley. The amount of the discount would be controlled by each area (SB/MRG). The upfront charge for the "Valley Card" would be determined by the participating merchants and net revenues from sales of the Valley Card could be split among the participating merchants based on subsequent useage of the card. In theory, the Valley Card could be programmed to charge distinct daily rates for weekends and non-weekends and holidays, etc at each of LP, ME and MRG or for access to any two or three areas.

2 Another alternative would be for MRG and SB to offer a "Super Season Valley Pass" for a slight premium over each one's current pass rates. The SSVP would allow the purchaser unlimited skiing at a primary area (SB or MRG) and either limited and/or discounted skiing at the "secondary" area. For example a "limited" feature might permit a certain number of free weekend/holiday days at the secondary area and perhaps a greater number of free non-weekend, non-holiday days at the secondary area. Alternatively and in addition, a "discount" feature would allow an MRG "Super Season Valley Pass" holder to use his pass (like a Sugar Direct Card) to purchase individual day discount tickets at SB (and vice versa). The amount of the discount at each area would be within the control of that area's management and proceeds from the sale of discount tickets would go to the area selling the (discount) ticket.

Both concepts would require MRG and SB to use compatible electronic and computer technology for their passes, but this ought to lead to savings in the long run.

Why not?

Co-ordinated passes could make our valley a cheaper and friendlier, more inclusive place ot ski and it would offer an additional incentive for homeowners and renters to choose the MRV over other New England destinations. In theory, Ole's, hotels, ski shops, restaurants and other merchants could also participate.

RopeTow

Hawk
01-21-2012, 04:18 PM
All good ideas Rope tow. I won't argue with you on that. I just think that it's hard to get stuff implemented up here with so many different and widely vaying opinions.

RopeTow
01-22-2012, 07:09 PM
Thanks for the props, Hawk.

I hear you about all the difference of opinion. Not to be too philosophical, but I don't think our economy is going to be too good for quite some time. I think discretionary spending (ie, leisure activities like skiing) are going to be under some pressure for some time. I think the winners in this new economy will be the creative entrepreneurs who create additional value for their customers and earn their loyalty and aggressively attract new business. I think the entrepreneurial leaders in the valley would be smart to spend some time figuring out how to get past differences of opinion and find new ways to provide value to their guests. Just to be clear, I can't imagine MRG and SB can't find "win-win" (or "win-eric") solutions to make the valley an even better place to visit and stay and spend.

Rope

RopeTow
01-30-2012, 12:37 PM
Here's Eric Friedman's (MRG) take on the situation which I picked up on the Alpine Zone website. Sure wish they would figure out a way to do even more together...

Question: Could you please comment on the relationship between Mad River and Sugarbush? You are competitors but also seem to work together very well for the benefit and growth of the valley. What happened to the pass reciprocity between MRG and Sugarbush? Will this limited reciprocity ever come back?

Eric Friedman: Let me start out by saying that I love Sugarbush and ski over there all the time. My kids have had season passes there and my sons are good friends with John Egan’s kids and ski together quite a bit. While we might joke around and there is certainly some “competition” between the areas we really do get along just fine and try hard to work together to encourage destination visitors to the Mad River Valley generally. Since Win Smith took over at Sugarbush they have been incredibly supportive of MRG and the Co-op. In fact Win even sponsored one of the chairs on the historically restored Single Chair. Although we are a little unhappy that he just recently married one of our favorite Co-op shareholders and has dragged her over “to the dark side”.

We like to think of Sugarbush as our “Little Sister who lives just down the road”. Remember folks MRG was here first! Note our full page ad in the Valley Reporter we placed to celebrate their 50th anniversary – We always one-up them with these things as it was our 60th that year!


Mad River Glen and Sugarbush offer a combined ski experience that no other resort area in New England can match. 3 great mountains (Lincoln Peak, Mt Ellen and Mad River Glen) on one massif along the spine of the Green Mountains each offering a distinct experience.


Combined we offer the best and most diverse terrain anywhere in New England and together we share the beautiful, authentic and pristine Mad River Valley. Yes we do work closely together in many ways especially via the Mad River Valley Chamber of Commerce. We have reciprocal employee skiing privileges, training exchanges for our freestyle and race teams, we have a joint presence at the Boston Ski Show and have had a joint ticket product to encourage destination visitors to come to “the valley”. We get together to support many great causes/events like the Warren July 4th celebration, the Randonnee Race, broom ball fundraiser, and most recently the clean-up and fund-raising effort after Tropical Storm Irene. We also help each other out in many ways most importantly on the departmental level. Our maintenance folks communicate, the office/ticket staffs talk to one another and the ski schools and patrols have a tremendous rapport. We all know that “we are all in the same boat” in many ways. We were very appreciative last year when we had mechanical issues with our Sunnyside Double Chair the SB crew could not have been more helpful and were ready to help us out in any way they could and we’d do the same for them in a heartbeat. The bottom line is we could not ask for better neighbors.

Mad River Glen and Sugarbush have never had pass reciprocity beyond the employees. It is something both sides have considered but the problem is that we simply have very different business models that make it very difficult for us to come together on some issues, pass reciprocity being chief among them. As many of you know when the skiing is good folks flock to MRG like pilgrims to a holy shrine. Sugarbush’s pass base is so much larger than ours we could never handle the influx on good days. I think we both think that it I hard to say “never say never” but a reciprocal pass program would be highly unlikely.

win
01-30-2012, 03:41 PM
The only thing I would disagree with Eric on is dragging my beautiful new wife over. Her snowboarding daughters did that before we reconnected. That said she constantly says "when are we going over to MRG?" As Eric said, we are fortunate to have two great areas in this Valley, and we really don't look at MRG as a competitor but rather our older sibling and friend and we do indeed work together on many things.

RopeTow
02-05-2012, 09:51 AM
Win -- You and Eric do deserve -- and get -- huge credit for everything you do together, for skiing in the valley, and for the valley in general.

Its just that we could be even better here (how's that for a new slogan) if that MIT engineer could figure out a way to let the regulars ski any lift in the valley with a minimum of hassle. I don't think I'm even suggesting unlimited skiing for season passholders at all three mountains...just a hassle free system (like the Sugar Direct system) where I can get on any lift in the valley and my card will be charged an appropriate amount, without having to get in line and purchase an additional day ticket.

I was at a small dinner gathering last night and described my ideas to a group of MRG skiiers and they said, yeah, theoretically that would be great, but good luck getting the hard core at MRG to embrace it.

So for the time being its just a dream...to get in my car any given morning and head to the lift that seems just right for the day, park, boot up and hop on.

HowieT2
02-13-2012, 07:09 AM
I would think that because the price of the tickets are so different it would be hard to figure out the revenue sharing. Also if I was an MRG skier, why on earth would I want the whole SB crowd at my hill. Lines are long enough on the weekend.

And conversely, why would sb want to give mrg passholders access to sb when the conditions over there arent good. That would eliminate a significant factor in many choosing passes at sb over mrg.

Seems simple but when you get into the details, it doesnt work.

Hawk
02-13-2012, 08:06 AM
I would think that because the price of the tickets are so different it would be hard to figure out the revenue sharing. Also if I was an MRG skier, why on earth would I want the whole SB crowd at my hill. Lines are long enough on the weekend.

Hmmm......I vaguely remember someone with this exact same responce on this. LOL ;-)

Hawk
02-13-2012, 08:10 AM
Jeeze, now I am responding to advertising robots. We need some snow. LOL

HowieT2
02-13-2012, 12:21 PM
spamorama.

hope you are all doing some kind of dance/prayer/sacrifice for frozen precipitation thursday/friday. i'm about ready to go postal.

gostan
02-13-2012, 01:13 PM
I will respond to all of the ad agencies and spambots that find their way to MRV if it will bring some real snow!

Hawk
02-13-2012, 01:27 PM
I hear ya Howie. We skined on Saturday up to North Linx throught the woods. 1" inch of dust on Crust. It was actualy pretty fun. It was a game of guessing exactly how steep you could go. You had to really pay attention to the slope and carefully pick your line. If you chose to steep then you broke free and slid. It was funny to hear the people behind you give you the buzzer sound when you failed. ;-) Once you failed you went to the end of the line and had to listen to insults and mocking. Everybody failed no matter what set up they were on at one time or another.

Slim pickins out there.

ahm
02-13-2012, 02:24 PM
Hawk,

Skins are a great way to go have some fun when the snow is limited. In regards to the sliding there are a couple ways, really set the ski through the heel as you slide it forward or get a set of ski crampons. The minute you really need them you'll wish you had them. You'll be happy with the purchase, and they are quite cheap. Sounds like a fun skin for the group.

AHM

Hawk
02-13-2012, 03:30 PM
I own ski crampons for my set up. I didn't bring them. We were just out on a friendly tour with wife and friends. It was just more about being silly and trying to go straight up hill in icy conditions. You have to realize that there is only about 1 foot of snow with a sold bombproof crust on top with 1" of snow. That 1" is not bonded at all. Just dust on crust. There is no technique that is going to make you stick once you break loose. It was fun trying.

pcampbell
02-13-2012, 05:31 PM
i skinned up the Mad River Glen snowshoe trail the other day, only to the top of the sunnyside lift. VERY HARD! Lots of side stepping. Very icy. i remember snowshoeing behind someone up to the top last year and don't remember it LOOKING so hard. I am hoping that it had to do with the amount of snow on the ground evening out the terrain and snow (not ice) giving grip.

RopeTow
08-05-2012, 12:29 PM
Its great to see that SB and MRG will cooperate this winter on passes for college skiers and twenty-somethings. I'm still hopeful that the two areas can find a way to get together and give us a ski-through card/pass use-able at either area as discussed last winter.

Thinkin' snow!

Hawk
08-21-2012, 07:41 AM
I didn't undrstand what you were saying RopeTow. I do do now. That is a great College pass for Skiers. Not so good for snowboarders. Wow Unlimited sking at all three areas for $359.

http://www.sugarbush.com/landing/college-pass.html

RopeTow
08-23-2012, 09:57 AM
From Win's email this morning:

"While most of our pass categories are the same as last year, this season we have entered into a new partnership with Mad River Glen and together we are offering a joint Sugarbush/MRG pass called the Threesome College Pass (Lincoln Peak, Mt. Ellen, MRG). There is a lot of excitement out there about this new pass and we are glad to be able to offer such competitive pricing for college students. We have also added "Add Mad" to our For20s Pass, which allows passholders to ski at Mad River Glen on weekdays.

When Jamey Wimble, Eric Friedman, and I sat down to talk about our new partnership, we all realized how great it is for college students and twenty-somethings to be discovering the Mad River Valley and, in some cases, rediscovering skiing and riding because of this affordable pass. This is good for everyone who loves the sport. We are excited to be working more closely with our neighbors at Mad River Glen and being able to offer the best of both worlds. I look forward to finding even more ways of working together in the future.

As in years past, many of our passes have significant built–in discounts both at Sugarbush and around the Valley."

This is a great new development and bodes well for attracting college students and twenty-somethings (back) to the Valley. I am especially heartened by Win's comment that he's looking "forward to finding even more ways of working together in the future".

Maybe the dream of a no-hassle "Valley Pass" some day isn't crazy, after all.

RopeTow
08-23-2012, 07:28 PM
From Eric's email earlier today:

MRG & Sugarbush - Together at Last!

They said it would never happen but it finally has. Mad River Glen and Sugarbush are working together to bring more skiers to the Mad River Valley. Here's a look at the new initiatives:

• The new Threesome College Pass gives full time college students unrestricted access to ski Mad River Glen as well as skiing/riding at Sugarbush's Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen. This new pass costs students a mere $359 (if purchased before November 6).

• We are also working together to target the key young adult demographic by offering special rates for skiers under the age of 30. These skiers can get a Sugarbush "For 20's" pass with the Add Mad" upgrade which gives unrestricted access to both of Sugarbush's mountains and midweek (holiday periods included) for $399 or they can get a Mad River Glen 20's Midweek Pass for only $199.

• The mountains are also working along with the Mad River Valley Chamber of Commerce to attract destination visitors with the "Ski The Valley Plus Passport" which is available to skiers who book extended ski and stay packages. It includes unrestricted access to all three mountains along with extra "pluses" at theaters, restaurants and shops throughout the Mad River Valley.

Good going and Keep it up guys! Next step is an all-area Valley Card for the regulars!

RopeTow
02-06-2013, 01:22 AM
From MRG's website today:

"To help out MRG skiers through this tough period our good friends next door at Sugarbush are offering all Mad River Season Passholders half price skiing at Mount Ellen from today through the weekend. The only exception is on Thursday which is their regular $30 Thursdays at Mt. Ellen special. Simply bring a current season pass with you to be eligible for this ticket price. We'd like to thank Win Smith and his team for making this option available to our skiers - mighty neighborly of you guys - thanks so much!"

This is another great development for the two areas!

FWIW, I'm still looking forward to the day when I can buy a Valley Season Pass and ski anywhere in the MRV on one pass without further payment, or a Valley Direct Card and pay electronically whether I go to SB or MRG without lining up at the ticket window.

But in the meantime kudos to Win and the two areas for their deepening cooperation.

pcampbell
02-06-2013, 09:25 AM
It wouldn't take much to do an all 3 peaks pass since they are already doing some sort of cooperation with the 3some thing. You can get a full season MRG and full season Sugarbush for about $2028 bucks in the pre-season. So maybe a little incentive to get both passes in one???

HowieT2
02-06-2013, 02:50 PM
Your not looking at the BIG picture. MRG must appeal to their shareholders. They like the not crowded vibe and the all natural snow appeal. They only have several thousand season pass holders, if that, and they have very limited uphill capacity. If you were to give all the season pass holders at SB, who number many more thousands than MRG, the place would get super crowded with incredible lift lines. I would assure you that the next season pass holder meeting that would immediately be removed as an option. As much as we would like to see it, you have to look at this logically without our emotions being involved. It really isn't feasible. I just don't see how with the facts anyone thinks that it is possible and would work out in the long run.

+1
not only would mrg get more crowded than it already is on powder days, but there would be no incentive to get an sb pass for those who like mrg but recognize that it is unskiable half the season. so sb loses that revenue. not going to work for either mtn because they are so different.

RopeTow
02-07-2013, 12:15 AM
+1
not only would mrg get more crowded than it already is on powder days, but there would be no incentive to get an sb pass for those who like mrg but recognize that it is unskiable half the season. so sb loses that revenue. not going to work for either mtn because they are so different.

I'm usually pretty averse to online arguments, but I have to say that the naysayers are being too closed-minded, negative and unimaginative.

With respect to season passes, Pcampbell is right. Anyone who wants a season pass to both areas today can buy "one" for the early purchase price of $1279 + $749 = $2028 (or less if, for example, they buy an MRG Value Pass or a SB 5 day only or Mt Ellen only pass). Today, any SB passholder who wants to ski MRG on a powder day or a bluebird day or any day (who is not already an MRG season passholder) can buy a ticket online or at the window and ski there. With a Madcard, that ticket costs only about $48. There are numerous other discounts available at MRG.

The marketing and economic challenge of an "all area" season pass is simply to price the pass at a point enough below $2028 and enough above current season pass and daily ticket prices so as to increase total revenue for both areas (for example by persuading some existing SB and MRG season pass holders to pay a few hundred more dollars for certain, specified additional "all area" privileges and by attracting skiers to the MRV who are currently not buying any season pass or are buying season passes at Stowe, Jay, or Killington etc) and then agree to a formula to share the incremental revenue fairly. This should be easy enough to do by simply tracking where "all area" passholders actually ski.

I don't necessarily buy the argument that MRG would be overrun on powder days by SB passholders. First of all, how many SB season passholders would upgrade to an "all area" pass costing several hundred dollars more than a SB only season pass? All? Not likely. A couple hundred? Maybe.

And on a powder day why would more SB skiers necessarily go to MRG than vice versa? I appreciate MRG's many charms, but on a powder day I might well decide to avoid the inevitable long lines on the single chair and ski Castlerock, Slidebrook, Grinder, Ripcord, Paradise, Exterminator and FIS at SB. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't plenty of MRG skiers who would decide to ski SB on any given day if they could do so on their season pass. If I am wrong and MRG would in fact be swamped on powder days, the price of an all area pass should simply be increased until balance is reached. Or the pass could be limited, for example, to non-saturday or non-weekend and/or non-holiday days.

I would also admit that if, for example, the existing price for an early purchase SB only pass is $1279 and, hypothetically, for an MRG add-on, say an additional $400, for a total of $1679, the price for an all area MRG season pass would have to be the same $1679, a substantial and perhaps prohibitive increase over the MRG early purchase price of $749. Perhaps cheaper "all area" passes could be offered with more limited (such as midweek only or Mt Ellen only) privileges that would be attractive to MRG passholders. Certainly some additional but limited privileges at SB as "insurance" to hedge against bad snow years (such as this year) should be attractive to some MRG season passholders who have already invested in a house and travel expense to the MRV.

Even if pricing an "all area" pass proves too difficult, there is no reason (other than perhaps "synching" the lift ticket readers) why the two areas couldn't sponsor a Valley Direct Card, similar to the SugarDirect Card. Each area could specify the discounts available at its "home" area. It would be just as if MRG offered a Mad Direct Card and the two areas agreed to combine the two cards on one piece of plastic. As I have proposed before, a Valley Direct Card could also include additional discounts on food, lodging, retail etc. across the MRV. Again, the whole purpose would be to make skiing in the Valley more convenient and efficient and also to attract skiers who are currently spending their ski dollars outside the MRV.

My last point would be to say again that SB and MRG need to be partners with each other and with all of the other businesses in the Valley if they are to survive and thrive in tough economic times and where there are numerous other places to spend disposable skiing dollars. Some of which other places have advantages that neither SB nor MRG has.

RopeTow
02-07-2013, 12:23 AM
... If you were to give all the season pass holders at SB, who number many more thousands than MRG, the place would get super crowded with incredible lift lines. ...

I don't think anybody is proposing "giving" anybody anything. SB season pass holders would have to PAY for additional MRG privileges. How much is the question.

RopeTow
02-07-2013, 09:16 AM
FWIW, Alta and Snowbird, adjacent to each other but under separate ownership, with differing gestalts (Alta doesn't permit riding...sound familiar?), offer joint passes.

Alta says: "[Joint] Day Passes are available at any Alta or selected Snowbird ticket window. Alta and Snowbird continue to maintain separate ownership and operation, preserving the unique skiing experience and resort atmosphere each offers. Guests can continue to purchase individual resort passes."

Here's how they price their tickets/passes (although numerous limited privilege and age specific discounts are also available):

Alta Adult One Day $75
Snowbird Adult One Day $85
Alta/Snowbird One Day $99

Alta Late Buy Season Pass $725
Snowbird Late Buy Season Pass $1199
AltaSnowbird Late Buy Season Pass $1799*

*Price on Snowbird Website. To see all the variations and permutations and discounts go to http://www.alta.com/pages/passes.php and https://tickets.snowbird.com/e-commerce/itemlist.aspx.

I am sure those predisposed to a negative mindset are ready to say that Snowbird/Alta are a totally different situation because blah blah blah (no disrespect intended). But they are not that different. The simple fact is likely to be that the two separate managements have sat down together and said something to the effect of, "We are in a very competitive business. There are about eight other resorts an hour or less away from us that skiers can choose instead of us. How do we drive more skier traffic up Little Cottonwood Canyon road? I know! Let's market our combined attraction jointly! We may take a little business away from each other, but that should even out. The good news is that we will be taking business away from Deer Valley and Park City which we otherwise wouldn't get. Our total revenues should grow and our seasonal workers, hotels, condos, equipment sales and rental businesses, gas stations and food establishments (on which both areas depend and which depend on the attractiveness of both areas) should all benefit."

I continue to push on this because it is the right thing to do. Our little valley is quaint and picturesque and offers a wonderful skiing product (between thaws). Yes the two (or is it three?) mountains offer very different skiing experiences and personalities. But if we want to see second home prices increase, the restaurant scene in the Valley revived, if we want to draw more young people, if we want to goose revenue so that Win and Eric can continue to invest in and upgrade their grooming and snow-making, the two areas really should cooperate more and more. The all area College Pass and Win's recent offer to let MRG season passholders purchase discount tickets at Mt Ellen are, of course, evidence that it can be done.

HowieT2
02-07-2013, 12:17 PM
the difference between alta/snowbird and sb/mrg is that mrg is limited to being a fair weather option. the lcc resorts dont have that issue. mrg probably averages half the days open that sb does.

as far as marketing to the vacation destination skiers, they already offer the combined ski the valley (or whatever its called) pass.

Colonel
02-11-2013, 01:09 PM
We are 2nd homeowners in the Valley and MRG shareholders/passholders who came up ahead of the storm and took advantage of the 1/2 price skiing offer at SBN this past Fri. My three kids were blown away by the terrain park and can't wait to come back. We had a great day that we otherwise would not have had and will probably be buyers of SBN passes for next year.
Thanks Win and to all at SBN who made us feel welcome. We'll be back!

notorious
02-13-2013, 03:40 PM
Rope tow is right. Joint passes are the future of the valley. The "hows" are details. The question is when, before Jay takes our customer base or after?

gostan
02-13-2013, 04:53 PM
Rope tow is right. Joint passes are the future of the valley. The "hows" are details. The question is when, before Jay takes our customer base or after?
Remember that many of us come to MRV from Boston and other distant locations. And I would opt to go back to Sugarloaf before going to Jay. And, neither drive is as easy as the drive to SB, as far as I am concerned.

And, I prefer MRV to indoor water parks.

Hawk
02-14-2013, 09:03 AM
If you haven't skied Jay lately it is not quite like it used to be. It's popularity has turned it into a total Sh#* Show on snow days. I was amazed as how fast the entire mountain got tracked out. Even the remote locations. Pound for pound I think that Sugarbush has way better skiing for a longer duration, more vertical and better trails. All those dumbed down manicured glades are not that great IMO.

I can't see them getting that much more popular. They have seen increased lines and that will only go so far before people say NOPE. Actually that is my biggest fear with Sugarbush.

jwt
02-14-2013, 11:16 AM
If you haven't skied Jay lately it is not quite like it used to be. It's popularity has turned it into a total Sh#* Show on snow days. I was amazed as how fast the entire mountain got tracked out. Even the remote locations. Pound for pound I think that Sugarbush has way better skiing for a longer duration, more vertical and better trails. All those dumbed down manicured glades are not that great IMO.

I can't see them getting that much more popular. They have seen increased lines and that will only go so far before people say NOPE. Actually that is my biggest fear with Sugarbush.


I'll agree there Hawk - lines here have been really the steadiest and longest consistently in the 30 years I've been coming to da 'Bush. The only thing that worries me is those seemed to have happened with many if not all lifts open!

As a small business owner, I'm happy for SV because capital for extending VH down to Bravo can only come from higher volumes of sales - whether it be RE or ticket sales or food. That removes the largest problem of gridlock. The other is consistent NL opening- and a bit more snowmaking there Unlike the Feds, SV does not own a printing press.

Family has an all mountain passes but we stick to Ellen on powder or holiday Saturdays exclusively now - and get more skiing because of it. Only really miss the Rock and those unmarked woods trails over there - but if one can't GET to them. . . .

We use ALL the terrain between Brambles and Spring Fling - jay has a whole mountain to expand to - we're out of those.

And while I'm not looking for a water park - SV would be hunted down and wiped out if they ever even thought of something like that - it DOES remove people from the mountain!!!!!

Most of us know we have the best overall experience in the East for skiing and Gods beauty with LESS people ( less beds) than any other major resort. We bring friends here and many stay . A few condos aren't going to kill us, we're just a bit spoiled.

That Terrain park keeps borders happy and off the other slopes too! Overall - we all know SR SL and those others have more this or that - and more people because of more beds - We'll never get that big - and that's a good thing.

We're rich , let's face it. As John D Rockefeller said when asked, being the wealthiest man on earth at the time - how much is enough? He was honest, ( forefinger and thumb close together) 'Just a little bit more'.

And still more people are needed to grow - just time to start selling separate 'woods passes' so we can limit the people in there ( just kidding of course)

HowieT2
02-14-2013, 02:45 PM
I'll agree there Hawk - lines here have been really the steadiest and longest consistently in the 30 years I've been coming to da 'Bush. The only thing that worries me is those seemed to have happened with many if not all lifts open!

As a small business owner, I'm happy for SV because capital for extending VH down to Bravo can only come from higher volumes of sales - whether it be RE or ticket sales or food. That removes the largest problem of gridlock. The other is consistent NL opening- and a bit more snowmaking there Unlike the Feds, SV does not own a printing press.

Family has an all mountain passes but we stick to Ellen on powder or holiday Saturdays exclusively now - and get more skiing because of it. Only really miss the Rock and those unmarked woods trails over there - but if one can't GET to them. . . .

We use ALL the terrain between Brambles and Spring Fling - jay has a whole mountain to expand to - we're out of those.

And while I'm not looking for a water park - SV would be hunted down and wiped out if they ever even thought of something like that - it DOES remove people from the mountain!!!!!

Most of us know we have the best overall experience in the East for skiing and Gods beauty with LESS people ( less beds) than any other major resort. We bring friends here and many stay . A few condos aren't going to kill us, we're just a bit spoiled.

That Terrain park keeps borders happy and off the other slopes too! Overall - we all know SR SL and those others have more this or that - and more people because of more beds - We'll never get that big - and that's a good thing.

We're rich , let's face it. As John D Rockefeller said when asked, being the wealthiest man on earth at the time - how much is enough? He was honest, ( forefinger and thumb close together) 'Just a little bit more'.

And still more people are needed to grow - just time to start selling separate 'woods passes' so we can limit the people in there ( just kidding of course)

agreed.
as to capacity at LP. replacing the old VH double with a modern triple would be sufficient to address the lift line issue. Not to beat a dead horse but its also a safety issue. I'd bet we see this sooner rather than later.
Increased peak cafeteria space. dont know what the answer to this, but a mid mtn lodge would be awesome.

water park- the sharc needs a revamp. why not include a water park?

sgottmann
02-14-2013, 03:59 PM
agreed.
as to capacity at LP. replacing the old VH double with a modern triple would be sufficient to address the lift line issue. Not to beat a dead horse but its also a safety issue. I'd bet we see this sooner rather than later.
Increased peak cafeteria space. dont know what the answer to this, but a mid mtn lodge would be awesome.

water park- the sharc needs a revamp. why not include a water park?

I think the crowds this year have been bigger than in any of the 12 that I have been at SB. While not that bad, the lines and wait times have been consistently noticeable at Super Bravo and Gatehouse. Weather has been a contributing factor, with Castlerock closed, HG on windhold and conditions marginal up there, but uphill capacity has been an issue for the first time that I can remember. I would love to see the VH replaced and extended down to base area and the traverse re-worked. I hope the profits are up enough to justify the expansion. I think I will ski at north on Saturday and Sunday for most of the day and hope slidebrook will be running.

southvillager
02-15-2013, 09:51 AM
Miracles can happen. In the last 3 years, new chair lifts have been installed at Jay, Sugarloaf, Shawnee, Mt Snow, Loon, Gunstock, Cannon, Cranmore, and Stowe, and maybe others. Resorts are making upgrades and improvements to their lifts even in the toughest of economic circumstances. Even the little guys like Shawnee and Gunstock are stepping it up a notch.

I can't imagine that Sugarbush would let their reputation be damaged by allowing the lifts to become too much of a negative experience.

Chewbarka
02-15-2013, 10:27 PM
+1. Replacing the Valley House Double with a high speed quad would solve most problems. It doesn't need to extend down to Bravo to be effective. In fact, if installed in VHD footprint, it would relieve a lot of lunch time stress on Gate House Lodge as it would entice more people into old lodge with a high speed quad was out the front door. If growth continues, something like this will need to be done soon. Unfortunately, 4 long time season pass buddies are heading to Stowe next year due to these growing pains. We are sad!

RopeTow
02-16-2013, 02:29 PM
Hi Chew

I'm just wondering what all the reasons are for switching out SB for Stowe. The VHD certainly is crying out for replacement, but it can't be the only reason...Care to let us know all of what's going into your and your buds thinking? And...would you be influenced by the availability of a "Valley Season Pass" or "Valley Direct Card" that allowed you more/better/cheaper/hassle-free access to all three mountains in the MRV as well as a greater range of incentives and discounts in the MRV?

Just curious,

RopeTow

Chewbarka
02-16-2013, 07:15 PM
Sure, here is the reasoning for them defecting after 12 years. Over 50% of reasoning are the lifts. Heavens gate and VHD are slow. If HG goes down, which it does from time to time, Bravo is a disaster. This year with Castlerock down, its been particularly bad. Compounded with additional skier visits, the lines have been really bad at times. If you are going to wait that long, the reasoning is at $teaux, you will have a top to bottom run that is 40% longer then the run you will get off Bravo or VHD and the lift ride time is shorter. I don't think MRG being shut down is helping our cause at the bush either. We have also seen the VHD not running, which does not help allieviate the crowds. Just think about how different the skier patterns would be with a high speed lift were to replace the VHD.

The rest of the reasoning is more controversial. The lack of snow making on Castlerock has killed off most of the difficult terrain this year. While i argue that snowmaking up there is a bad thing, we have seen a serious lack of terrain this year that is not the case at many other mountains with greater snow making capabilities. We are suffering "mountain fatigue" currently, which a good snowfall would solve, but sure seems unlikely this year. Lots of snow cures all! And, there is no talk at all of new lifts or expanded snowmaking at Sugarbush in the future.

So our buds are leaving us. They live in Burlington area, so its an easier decision for them. We come up from CT and are pot committed to the valley with our valley real estate purchase many years ago. The extra driving does not appeal to us. I will say we are currently wrestling with decision to reload our all mtn pass this spring as we do every year vs. a sugarcard or quad pack which would allow us to ski other areas from time to time next year. We are seriously leaning this way right now.

The "valley pass" would not help one bit with our decision. MRG is a non player in a bad snow year and that is what it is really all about.

RopeTow
05-16-2013, 06:03 AM
Rope tow is right. Joint passes are the future of the valley. The "hows" are details. The question is when...

Bumping this thread for some more off-season discussion. I would still like to see a joint season pass, like Snowbird/Alta, or if not, an expanded "SugarMad Direct Card" that I can use to get on any lift in the Valley without going to the ticket window.

I've been bombarded with emails urging me to buy the Mountain Collective pass the last few days. See: http://www.themountaincollective.com/.

There are plenty of other joint marketing initiatives out there, some by areas with the same corporate ownership, some not. It seems like there is plenty of joint marketing going on.

Win's offer to let MRG season passholders purchase discount Ellen tickets during the thaw last year is an approach that could be expanded. Why not offer an Ellen/MRG pass (with perhaps the right to purchase discount Lincoln tickets)? This should be attractive to MRG passholders to hedge against weather risk and could be an appealing "upgrade" for Ellen-only passholders. Isn't the only real issue price?

I know there would be a concern from MRG that it would be inundated on Saturdays when conditions are great. So maybe carve out Saturdays...But remember, when conditions are great at MRG, they are great at Ellen, too.

Although not directly comparable, I note that SkiUtah offers gold and silver passes good at any Utah ski area. See: http://www.skiutah.com/winter/deals/deals/silver_and_gold_passes. The participating areas have obviously figured out a way to share the revenue...

That's enough for now. Hope everyone is enjoying the biking, golf and sailing...

RopeTow

WWF-VT
05-16-2013, 08:01 AM
I've been bombarded with emails urging me to buy the Mountain Collective pass the last few days. See: http://www.themountaincollective.com/.



The Mountain Collective is a helluva pass option for $369. 12 days of skiing plus other deals! All you need to do is budget several thousand additional dollars for travel, lodging and expenses to visit the resorts in 4 different states and a have your passport for a trip to Canada.

WWF-VT
05-16-2013, 10:13 PM
I still think the thing you are most likely to see will be a discount card between the 3. 25% off Lincoln Peak every day, 50% off Mt. Ellen/MRG weekdays, and 25% weekends. It could be an add on for all season pass holders at $50. Or, Mad River could have a discount card that could be added on to SB passes at a discount, and MRG could have a Sugar Direct card added at a discount. I think there could be a way to integrate the mountains better to deliver a cheaper product, but I logically dont see it happening anytime soon.

Or just by a Mad Card for $144 that gets you three transferable tickets to use any time at MRG.

HowieT2
05-18-2013, 08:10 AM
To be honest, I'd be much more excited to hear about a new valley house lift, additional cafeteria space and added snow making capacity, than a combined lift ticket. The latter two were talked about by mc win as part of the off season plan. Would love to hear details, especially how they are going to get more seating out of the existing infrastructure, which is beyond my, admittedly limited, compression.

southvillager
05-19-2013, 03:53 PM
Would love to hear details, especially how they are going to get more seating out of the existing infrastructure, which is beyond my, admittedly limited, compression.

Only a guess, but the easiest and cheapest expansion would be the lower level of the Valley House, and the Mushroom. It used to be busy on weekends. Another option could be to somehow combine a cafeteria into the existing space at the schoolhouse for the kids in programs, which would remove the kids and instructors from the current spaces.

HowieT2
05-20-2013, 04:00 PM
Only a guess, but the easiest and cheapest expansion would be the lower level of the Valley House, and the Mushroom. It used to be busy on weekends. Another option could be to somehow combine a cafeteria into the existing space at the schoolhouse for the kids in programs, which would remove the kids and instructors from the current spaces.

I dont think there is a kitchen in the schoolhouse. they tried to get the blazer kids to use the valley house on saturdays and that didnt work too well.