Plans for Shortening Village Double and Its Implications

[random_ski_guy]

Looking at the plans posted on the town of warren website it appears in the long run the village double will be replaced, realigned and dramatically shorted to something a little longer than the larger carpet lift. If this is correct, I think it would be a mistake. The current easy rider trail is wide and long, perfect for teaching and perfect for spreading those beginners out. Its hard to imagine a holiday week with large crowds sqeezed onto a beginner slope 1/3 the current size.

[Hawk]

RSG, that is not what they are showing . They are removing a section up to the cutover trail at the bottom of out to lunch. I would say it might be 1/5th of the lift at best leaving 4/5ths.

[random_ski_guy]

Hawk,

When I look at the maps provided under the SE Group lighting plan, I see a substantially shorter chair. Particularly in drawing LA-002.

http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/20...2012012011.htm

[Hawk]

That is interesting. I see your point now. That was not how it was explained to me the other weekend. I agree that it would not be as good as it is now.

[win]

The thought is to start it around the current bridge so people from the Village and from the Sugarbush Plaza area can ski to it easily. It will end lower around Sugarbush Forest Road so beginners do not have to go down the steep slope that is at the end of the current Village chair.

[random_ski_guy]

Let me say that I fully appreciate that a great deal of thought, including cost-benefit analysis, has been put into the design. If it is financially feasible, I would reconsider and go to a longer beginner lift, one that runs 3/4 or 4/5's of the current easy rider slope so that you have that beautiful wide idyllic beginning slope...but now without the intimidating headwall on top. Ending the lift at Sugarbear road would reduce easy rider to 1/2 its current size or less. Seems like that would create a very crowded place to learn. Just my worthless 2 cents from a far flung location....

[ducky]

Ok so long as the Bravo chair can be accessed from top of the Village Double via Sugarbear Rd. The Village Double is used by Village guests and residents as an easier way to access the main mountain without having to pole across the Gatehouse area. This chair is also used as a way home via Out to Lunch, so access needs to remain open to the top of that trail for that purpose too.

Charlie the liftie often keeps it open a little later so folks can get home. Gotta love Skip and Charlie!

[random_ski_guy]

Ducky, as presented, the new village chair would fall well short of providing access to Out to Lunch. You would have to take the Gatehouse Chair.

[Hawk]

Ok so long as the Bravo chair can be accessed from top of the Village Double via Sugarbear Rd. The Village Double is used by Village guests and residents as an easier way to access the main mountain without having to pole across the Gatehouse area. This chair is also used as a way home via Out to Lunch, so access needs to remain open to the top of that trail for that purpose too.

Charlie the liftie often keeps it open a little later so folks can get home. Gotta love Skip and Charlie!
+100000
Many of us in the village use this lift going to and from our units. Especially when you have kids and do not want to get caught up in the kaos of the Gate house. I strongly suggest that you guys reconsider and make it go a little higher so that we can still access these trails.

[ducky]

I'm with Hawk on this. It is used a lot by people in the Village and relieves the GH chair. How about using some of the snowmaking pond's 80,000 cubic yards of fill removed to level out Easy Rider a bit?

Wasn't the original plan to raise the Double further up Pushover to the corner?

[random_ski_guy]

Removing the headwall atop easy-rider, regrading the upper 1/3rd and maintaining access to the out to lunch trail would be ideal...but I suspect that its viewed as a low ROI project. I'm with ya though, it would be nice and make easy rider a great place to teach skiing. Stowe has their nice new practice slope & chair which serves trailside homes, Okemo has the same at both Jackson Gore and the original base area and Killington has Snowshed.

[Hawk]

I have a better Idea, put a new lift on Village run and cut access to and from it so that I can truely Ski in-Ski out. Not asking much just a T or J bar would be fine. ;-) Please......Petty Please.

[Hawk]

Removing the headwall atop easy-rider, regrading the upper 1/3rd and maintaining access to the out to lunch trail would be ideal...but I suspect that its viewed as a low ROI project. I'm with ya though, it would be nice and make easy rider a great place to teach skiing. Stowe has their nice new practice slope & chair which serves trailside homes, Okemo has the same at both Jackson Gore and the original base area and Killington has Snowshed.
I would think that since they are relocating the lift already the cost to make it just a little longer would be negligible. I also think that it is going to be a new lift right? I would hope they aren't reusing all those old risty lattice towers. They are also going to have to regrade anyway and will have the equipment up there already. I think that will also be negligible.

[random_ski_guy]

The lift is in the Nat Forest, so I believe every little thing you do, like regrading requires study, plans and etc. Plus, I think summit ventures is looking at is as the marginal cost between a new lift that ends at Sugarbear Road which requires minimal grading vs a new lift that ends at out to lunch (like the current chair) which really could use massive regrading. I'm not arguing against you, just thinking aloud. Personally, it would be nice to see the current length of easy rider maintained and regraded. I dont necessarily even need to see a new lift, I love the old lattice towers, rust and all.

[Brew Ski]

Removing the headwall atop easy-rider, regrading the upper 1/3rd and maintaining access to the out to lunch trail would be ideal...but I suspect that its viewed as a low ROI project. I'm with ya though, it would be nice and make easy rider a great place to teach skiing. Stowe has their nice new practice slope & chair which serves trailside homes, Okemo has the same at both Jackson Gore and the original base area and Killington has Snowshed.

Out West, Steamboat recently regraded their "learn to ski" slope. I think they advertised that the optimal slope for learning to ski is a 12 degree grade and they regraded a tremendous part of the base area to give a large, wide learn to ski area to be used safely by lots of people and classes at once. I'm not sure about 12 percent grade, but the basic idea is probably true, a constant wide slope is best to learn on. A great way to build confidence without any surprises. It would seem to make sense that installing a new (or re-used lift) would require some re-grading. So might as well make the best of the time and money spent to get it done right. "headwall" and learn to ski slope seem incongruous to me.

To Hawks point, having the Village area condos actually be "ski in/ski out" would certainly improve customer satisfaction, increase real estate value, and create demand. When more people want to ski in/ski out like at other resorts and all the condos are owned, the market for new condos will significantly improve. Supply and demand thing. Even a surface lift would help. Besides, I bet Hawk would start selling primo parking spots at his place on those holiday weekends, for direct and immediate access to the lifts. I'll consider selling homebrew in the lot to thirsty patrons as a revenue boost to the valley and total customer satisfaction. ;-)

[southvillager]

Sugarbush has long suffered from a lack of ski in/out accommodations as compared to the other big New England ski areas. It would be unfortunate to worsen the problem for the older condos in (and above) the Village, and I have to believe it would negatively impact the resort as a whole.

Like most vacation properties and hotels, newer buildings will command the highest prices, older properties become cheaper. It would be a shame to limit ski in/out access to only the new premium properties. Considering the marketing effort made to attract new, less affluent customers in their 20s (consider the targeted "For20" passes and advertising), it may be a step in the wrong direction. I believe that a group of 25 year old skiers looking to book a weekend or rent for the season is more likely to rent at Trailside or Northlynx than at Claybrook. Maintaining the semi-ski in/out access is important to those "target market" skiers...as well as the condo owners.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. Do you think people plan to book a vacation at Rice Brook condos, or do they want to go skiing at Sugarbush? If management wants to continue to build the Sugarbush brand into the world class resort it can be, it may be worthwhile taking all the mountain properties into consideration, even the old inexpensive ones, when planning lift or trail improvements.

[Tin Woodsman]

SB has publicly stated that one of the goas of the next phase of development is to link the new LP Village/Base with the older SB village. In do doing, the goal is to presumably increase the quality of the experience wherever you're staying by having a single "center of gravity" instead of multiple poles requires a short drive or a walk across a frozen wasteland. It would be ironic indeed if, as a consequence of that development initiative, SB were to sever the mtn itself from the village it is hoping to unite with.

[djd66]

Not sure I understand what the big deal is,.... Do you guys use the village double to do laps on easy rider? Personally I use the VD so I can make a 1 shot traverse to SB - I assume I will still be able to do that in the new configuration. Plenty of times (if I am skiing SB for first chair) I just skate the traverse across to the GHL and walk to SB. Getting home I always use GH - I raced my kids one day and found it to be much faster than riding the VD. In a perfect world, it would be nice to have 2 chairs that access the Out To Lunch Trail, but it really is not that big of a deal.

Speaking of Ski In SKi Out - I have never understood why village run ends where it does. If you want to increase the value of all that property - there should be a lift/tunnel or bridge there. All the condo/home owners could chip in,... This may sound wacked out - but it would certainly increase the value of ALL those properties.

[sgottmann]

While I have no idea of the cost and permitting requirements for regrading easy rider and keeping the lift up to out to lunch trail, I agree that a nice wide learning slope is very important. I have taught my three kids and several of my friends kids to ski on easy rider and would hate to see it over-crowded. There really is a very limited amount of beginner terrain at the mountain and limiting it further is not ideal. As for the lift terminus, I also agree that access to the out to lunch trail is the way to go. It provides easier connectivity to the "old village" and allows all abilities to ski home or ski over to Chez Henri, Mutha Stuffers, Pine Tree, the pre-school, and condos. These are locally own businesses that are trying to improve the experience at Sugarbush and I would haite for them to suffer. It also gives another "trail" for beginner's to ski on without having to go to gate house -- hardly a concern for most but my kids thought sugar bear, easy rider and out to lunch were 3 awesome trails when they first started.

I also think that true connectivity to the "old village" is criticial to compete with other mountains, especially as Sugarbush continues its transition from castoff to major player. Many visitors have commented to me about the lack of on mountain options and activities and a united base area will certainly help in this regard. While I reviewed the subdivsion map, I do not recall seeing a dedicated walking path from the school house to the old village. If not present, this is a mistake in my view. This provides all season access from the village condos to Timbers and vice versa and really changes the expereince. It's great to park your car on arrival and not get in it again until departure. I agree about the skaiting pond as well. Keep the people on the mountain spending money. Sell some hot choclate to the kids and let mom and dad drink some hot toddies next to a fire pit. Finally, I am curious as to the parking for the "old village" without the existing two parking lots. While not the primary concern of Summit Ventures, 14 spaces seems a little light for the day care, shops and eateries are over in the old village.

In any event, I hope the new units sell like waffles at the waffle hut, allowing further infrastructure improvements. The inverness pod is waiting. A November and December with raves instead of rants about the snowmaking hopefully awaits. It is Sweeter at Sugarbush so hopefully the new base will "Be Better" too. In the meantime, think snow -- it tastes so good when it touches your tips. Mom, the MEAT LOAF, WTF!!!

[ducky]

I see your points, djd66, but for me, as I actually live on Out to Lunch, it is a big deal. You'd probably feel the same in my shoes. I think others may feel this way too as many homes are accessed by this trail. Guess we'll have to hike the last pitch.

I would be willing to chip in to a bridge or tunnel for Village Run, however FWIW, I once tried to persuade Sugarbush to pave the whole of Upper Village Rd and have an assessment to the land owners to pay for it. It was not even considered even though it would cost them nothing and save many year-round road repairs. I doubt they'd ever consider improving VR.

Speaking with John Roth, local surveyor who laid out the whole Village Run properties in the early 1960's, I was told Village Run was originally designed with a 10% slope and laid out so that all the Village properties could be truly ski in/out with gravity - what a concept. Ultimately, the mountain owners at the time cheaped out, cut a flat trail, and never installed the lift. Oh well. There are many great ways home via Slide Brook, more pleasurable than GH, VD, or VR, just only covered 2-3 months of the year.

[mattlucas]

The thought is to start it around the current bridge so people from the Village and from the Sugarbush Plaza area can ski to it easily. It will end lower around Sugarbush Forest Road so beginners do not have to go down the steep slope that is at the end of the current Village chair.

I don't see how this would accomplish a better experience for long term SB village residents or beginners to the resort.

Many people use Out to Lunch as is stated. There is nothing that isn't ski on / ski off if you are a resident that uses that trail.

As far as the terminals of the VD, a longer properly graded trail would be the most optimal to learn on. Why not when dredging the snowmaking pond start to fill in the grass land near the top of the VD chair and the slightly steeper headwall. It would maybe make the whole trail slightly steeper but it would make that area flatter.

Having beginners spin around on a four tower lift (Exaggeration, but it's already short compared to others like Okemo's beginner areas, where many people learn) just puts more people in line and seemingly on the slope at the same time. Lose / Lose.

There isn't enough snowmaking capacity to cover the trail edge to edge as is. That would obviously be the best and easiest solution to enhance the beginner experience right now. I'm currently teaching a beginner/lower intermediate right now, and we did not ski sugarbush this past week because of the crowds and trail count for less talented skiers. Even today, without being able to ski pushover -> slowpoke or lower hotshot. I passed on the opportunity to take her and we went to the skatium instead. It was a major bummer, but it didn't seem worth it to be cold (not SB's fault) and unhappy with the terrain.

Certainly she could handle Jester, but I don't think Downspout is easy for people of her talent level and I don't think the traverse was open. Again, this comes back to snowmaking.

Finally, besides snowmaking the most important thing is getting runs in for people learning how to ski. And then to warm up. And then to ski some more. Rotting on fixed grip lifts is not necessarily the best, although the scenery and all bonding with family, etc is important and part of the classic experience. That said, it's not in my mind worth the trade off for a triple. Triple's are slow relics of the only ski era that is not fondly remembered. Just terrible winters on slow triples of the NE. Do beginners a favor and let them get comfortable with skiing on a comfy detachable quad. I think it increases their ability to ski at a faster rate allows for easier loading and unloading, and makes the ski experience more luxurious.

Yes, they do cost more but it's the price to compete with Stowe and Okemo.

But getting back to the point, if access to the SB is reduced from the top of the VD or if Out to Lunch is left out to dry like the gangrene appendage of Village Run, it'll really suck. I know that management is trying to get back to the point with a long term view of ownership, but every decision makes a big difference to people on many days, and over decades.

Look at the two chair system to the top instead of a T2B lift... Village Run, the moving of the chairs over and over at North. These things should be discussed thoroughly and the best ideas will hopefully come forward.

[Hawk]

I can't sell parking at my place.....M and M would want a cut. ;-)
I have taught many kids to ski off that lift and there was never any issues with steepness. The progession was from the majic carpet to the VD and the kids were always psyched. IMO we lose something with this new plan.
Ducky I have no idea what you are talkin about. There is now way home from slidebrook. You are mistaken. ;-)
We do not do laps on VD but the new lift will will leave us with less options. It does not give us access to out to lunch or a way to the SB lift. I see this as a further slight on the village. As Henri has said to me over a glass of wine, no one has cared about the village since the mountain sold it off years ago.

[djd66]

We do not do laps on VD but the new lift will will leave us with less options. It does not give us access to out to lunch or a way to the SB lift. I see this as a further slight on the village. As Henri has said to me over a glass of wine, no one has cared about the village since the mountain sold it off years ago.

Hawk -

Maybe I don't fully understand the new plan. From what I saw, it looks like you will still be able to take the VD and ski to Sugarbear Road. Is that not the case?

[ducky]

Presently, from the top of the VD, you need most of the gravity and speed you can get to make it down Sugarbear Rd.

[Hawk]

Hawk -

Maybe I don't fully understand the new plan. From what I saw, it looks like you will still be able to take the VD and ski to Sugarbear Road. Is that not the case?

I didn't either until Ducky pointed it out. The new lift ends where Sugarbear Forest dumps out. That is just a little higher than the top of the Magic carpet in elevation and about 50 yds lower than out ot lunch and Sugarbear road. The beginner slope will be almost cut in half in length.

MH, as Ducky points out, we do pay money to the mountain for maintance. They do very little. When Win was asked a couple of years ago in the Community day meeting if they were going to fix the roads, the statement back was" We are not in the road business". I guess at that point we sould have rebelled and stop payiing our fees for the road. Right? You know I do live here and I bought here so anything that is taken away just plain sucks to me. It's a matter of perspective.

[random_ski_guy]

Great points sgottman and others. In the end, its all a matter of money.

[HowieT2]

I didn't either until Ducky pointed it out. The new lift ends where Sugarbear Forest dumps out. That is just a little higher than the top of the Magic carpet in elevation and about 50 yds lower than out ot lunch and Sugarbear road. The beginner slope will be almost cut in half in length.

MH, as Ducky points out, we do pay money to the mountain for maintance. They do very little. When Win was asked a couple of years ago in the Community day meeting if they were going to fix the roads, the statement back was" We are not in the road business". I guess at that point we sould have rebelled and stop payiing our fees for the road. Right? You know I do live here and I bought here so anything that is taken away just plain sucks to me. It's a matter of perspective.

Where are you guys seeing the terminus of the relocated lift on the plans?

[gostan]

I have been reading this jump started thread with interest, but have stayed away from commenting upon the same since I am in the real estate development business and I have no interest in buying a ski property in New England, and I am not a abutting village property owner.

Remember that this development project appears to still be in the approval process in front of the Town of Warren Development Review Board. I am not familiar with the Vermont abutter notice requirements, but some of you direct abutter Village owners may have received hearing notice(s) about the approval process. Certainly, those of you who are owners/abutters in the Village, have the legal right to review, appear and comment upon the plans that are in the process of being approved. This may possible include the parking, roadway and access via ingress and egress between the new proposed Rice Brook Development and the long existing Village development, and, maybe, even the relocation of the VD. The following is a link to the Town of Warren Development Review Board Agenda9s), which appears to show the ongoing date schedule of review and comments: http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2011/drb_agendas_2011/drb_agenda2011_2010.htm

Some of your comments here certainly appear to be worthy of further thought since Rice Brook does affect the existing Village properties. My only comment is that it definitely appears to me as if the Summit Ventures development team has given some real thought as to how to interface the new project with the existing Village and the balance of the base development, but that like all of us developers, is attempting to maximize the number of units to be constructed in the available land. Just understand that this maximization of units is a good thing for all of us who ski & ride Sugarbush, as long as the existing Village property owners are not forgotten, and this does not appear to be the case here.

[djd66]

[QUOTE=Hawk;114870]I didn't either until Ducky pointed it out. The new lift ends where Sugarbear Forest dumps out. That is just a little higher than the top of the Magic carpet in elevation and about 50 yds lower than out ot lunch and Sugarbear road. The beginner slope will be almost cut in half in length.

If this is the case, I do have an issue. I was under the impression that the lift would end at Sugarbear Road - which would still allow for an easy traverse to SB. Count me in for Occupy the VD! :)

[random_ski_guy]

i think there is a walkway on the plans, but i still dont see where the relocated lift ends.

fwiw-we made the same point about the day care in discussing the planning for the schoolhouse.

and yes, more bikini clad woman

If you follow the link to the town of Warren website provided earlier in the thread and look at the SE Group lighting plan, map LA 002 you will see that the realigned village chair ends on the west side of Easy Rider near the start of Sugarbear Road.

[HowieT2]

If you follow the link to the town of Warren website provided earlier in the thread and look at the SE Group lighting plan, map LA 002 you will see that the realigned village chair ends on the west side of Easy Rider near the start of Sugarbear Road.

got it thanks.

[mattlucas]

I knew all those online classes in Ski Area Architecture would come in handy one day. Spelling errors and all, the map below is what you would get if you regraded and excavated the portion lookers right on the top of Easy Rider and moved the unloading to the right side. This would create a roughly ten foot retaining wall at the bottom of the trees above the lift shack, not a big loss for accomplishing so many things with one move.

The ramp and shack would have to be moved over a bit to the left, but there appears to be room to do this by inverting the current layout and aligning it with Lower Pushover.

Excavation of dirt and rock could immediately be re-used to regrade, flatten, and properly take advantage of the weedy and totally derelict gully.

The resulting slope would also be flat as a pancake. Beginners would step off, and come around into a beautiful slope and begin making their descent onto a wider slope.

Other benefits include:

Fewer entanglements with skier traffic on lower pushover.

Possibility to include some picnic tables on a nice sunny spot to give beginners the feeling of accomplishment of looking down into a valley from a scenic vista for the first time. IT's actually a sunny spot and I think people would take advantage, even just to snap a photo of their kids or to adjust their boots in style.

Access to the Bravo and Out to Lunch is maintained.

Traffic with Out to Lunch is barely an issue because even if trail use was greatly increased those skiers are primarily better skiers and wouldn't be as disruptive because the new slope would require more skating across delicately.

Final thoughts:

With a new re-graded slope covered edge to edge in snow, beginner skiers would have a great trail to learn on with a better length, virtually the same pitch as below, enhanced width for longer turns.... altogether a more finished area comparable to the competition at Okemo, Killington, Stowe.

I'm changing my tune in regards to a triple. Every lift has it's drawbacks. I like the idea of a well spaced detachable but understand that it is expensive to both purchase and run. A shiny new triple would look great compared to the rusty old double, and with the whole trail being accessed, a lift like that would have fewer towers to interfere with traffic than a double even if the base was moved closer to the other buildings and it ran on an angle.

My Picasso:

http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/ml242/sugarbush/map001web.jpg

[Brew Ski]

Why is one of the triple passengers "missing" a head? Was there an accident on the lift?;-)

Nice concept. Good use of space. You could be a landscaper.

I think the "cliffy retaining wall" kill the budget though...:P

[Hawk]

Matt that is cool and all but I think that they are going to move the lift over closer to the Gate House to accomodate the new builings. This would put the top terminal on th eother side of the trail from where it is now. I guess they could make the lift cross the trail but that would put towers in the middle of the trail. You need to redesign for the other side. ;-)

[sglatham]

Yikes, now I see the point on the VD! I was going off of memory from the ORIGINAL master plan when they built Claybrook etc. In those plans the new, repositioned VD went up Easy Rider, across the trail (lookiing up, starts to lower right, ends upper left), wiith a terminus just below Sugarbear Road and the dreaded Easy Rider head wall. Why they would want VD to be as short as on the recent plans, and miss utilizing 50% of Easy Rider, and all of Sugarbear RD and Sugarbear Forest, is beyond me. This would radicallly limit the true beginner/learning terrain, especially compared to other resorts. Doesn't make sense (and miost of what Win does actually makes sense to me). To those who have a true "standing" in the is process (ie homeowners) please let your voice be heard at the Warrent meetings!!

[mattlucas]

So the meetings are on the 16th and the 30th?

Will Summit Ventures be the only group presenting to the town board? How are residents and non-residents heard? It looks like the architectural plans have been Public for a little while, are they approved or does the whole process begin again if they make changes?

The buildings do look cool. I'd like to see development, jobs, a more active night life. I'm just not sure why some of these changes have to come at the expense of second home owners that have been involved with Sugarbush for many years.

Here are the proposed plans if anyone has not looked at them:

http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/ml242/sugarbush/Untitled-2.jpg
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/ml242/sugarbush/Untitled-1-1.jpg

[Tin Woodsman]

Bump.

Not to distract everyone from Ullr's pending bounty, but I've split out this topic from the LP Development thread and then merged it with the mattlucas Picasso/Beautifu Mind drawing of village doulbe/Easy rider thread :-)

Hopefully this will enable a more focused conversation on two very different aspects of the LP Development plans - the bldgs themselves vs. the associated on-mountain impact. The split asn't perfect b/c some posts delve into both topics, but this should work reasonably well going forward.

To get a view of what people are concerned about, look at the second rendering posted by mattlucas above. Just to the left of the dotted blue line, you can see parallel lift lines for the magic carpet (bottom) and the replcement VD (top). If it's hard to tel them apart, that should be a red flag for you right there. Look how short they intend to make the VD lift and then think about the cnsequences of those plans, not just for SB village residents, but for utilization of Easy Rider. Disturbing to say the least, IMHO.

I, for one, would urge all concerned parties in the area to make their voice heard on this issue at the upcoming review hearings in Warren.

[mattlucas]

So does the national forest land extend down to the top of VD?

I would rather see the mountain do a study than move the chair down in a knee jerk reaction ruining the slope for beginners, residents, renters, and parents that might want to shuffle over to the double to check on their kids and head back to bravo. Or skip a gate house line to go get a sandwich, pizza, beer, or french onion soup in the village.