New Snow Guns

[Treeskier]

As lover of new technology it was great to see where snow guns are going.
http://clubxtaski.com/111203_New_Snow_Guns_web/photos/007_111203_Sugarbush_1.jpg

They require only ~ 5 CFMs compared to 300+CFMs the oldest guns require and ~180 CFMs that the Snow Economics HKD gun require.
Here is a close-up of the head
http://clubxtaski.com/111203_New_Snow_Guns_web/photos/004_111203_Sugarbush.jpg

From what I understand the barrel atomizes the water so it comes out as mist and the 3 up facing jets are air only. That is why the barrel is so long.

I also learned that as with any new technology there is room for improvement. I guess they are bulky and require 2 or 3 people to move them. They do not slide around easily.

My biggest observations is how quite they are! Skiing with an instructor, he said "Being this quite I can now conduct a class and my student will be able to hear me! That will be great."

Also learned is they work best at 25 degrees or lower. Which means in NE fickled weather they, at the moment, seem not to be the end all since the older much more high air volume guns can operate at high temperatures.
http://clubxtaski.com/111203_New_Snow_Guns_web/photos/011_111203_Sugarbush.jpg

A lot of us also gave our sacrifices to Ullr the snow god

http://clubxtaski.com/111203_New_Snow_Guns_web/photos/019_111203_Sugarbush.jpg

Looks like colder weather coming second half of the week!

[Hawk]

Was that at a local bar tenders party?

I will have to examine these things closer this weekend. That is a real funkey set up. They look pretty cool. I have to see if they actually blow decent quality snow or just mud. I have heard some rumblings but I can not comment until I have seen them for my self.

Another 55-60 degree MTB ride last night. Is this December??? I can't wait for the true cold to set in. I haven't even used my winter MTB shoes yet. ;-)

[HowieT2]

Cool stuff.

fwiw-this weather still blows and as of now it looks like the goods will stay south of the mrv on thursday.

[Treeskier]

Not sure what the story is. From first observations the guns all lined up and running all weekend at the bottom of Gondolier sure did not put out much snow.Expecially since they where turned on on Wed. PM. Compared to the piles the older guns put out just over night on Downspout. But then I heard through the grape vine that the guns water output controls, go from 1 to 7. 1 being the least. And that they area all set at 1. Which does not make sense, unless it is due to not low enough temperature then that is a problem also.

I will say that providing us soft piles of snow on Downspout did save the weekend by providing fun snow to play in. That was a very good thing!

Everyone think cold for Wednesday into Thursday!

[HowieT2]

Not sure what the story is. From first observations the guns all lined up and running all weekend at the bottom of Gondolier sure did not put out much snow.Expecially since they where turned on on Wed. PM. Compared to the piles the older guns put out just over night on Downspout. But then I heard through the grape vine that the guns water output controls, go from 1 to 7. 1 being the least. And that they area all set at 1. Which does not make sense, unless it is due to not low enough temperature then that is a problem also.

I will say that providing us soft piles of snow on Downspout did save the weekend by providing fun snow to play in. That was a very good thing!

Everyone think cold for Wednesday into Thursday!

From what I heard the jury is still out on the performance of the new guns in marginal temperatures as we had this past weekend.

[Brew Ski]

Treeskier,

Thanks for posting the pix. Love the skier with the guns in the background. Nice action shot. And tips first landing. Nice.

I was thinking that the majority of the new guns were not dialed up to max output. Not sure why considering the cold temps. A couple of the guns on Gondolier must have been at higher settings because they seemed to be putting out significantly more snow than other guns. Again, seems like the new guns should have been at least turned up to 4 or 5 to get more coverage faster. The quality of snow coming out of the new guns seems really good. The flake-like pellets were dry and not hard like graupel. At least the stuff landing on my ski coat looked pretty good.

I listened to many discussions on chair rides about the guns placement. Seems like you'd have them shooting up or down the middle of the trail. Dump as much snow as possible, then let the snow cats push the snow around to aerate and smooth cover. Instead many of them were angled across trails and effectively filling the woods (thanks for that). While I'll use the strong base in the woods later in the year, it seems that on a relatively low wind weekend, the guns could be better used filling the trails. In the years that I worked at Killington, the snow makers early season usually had guns blasting up and down the runs to get max depth on the center of the trails. They let the groomers worry about pushing snow out to the edges. Once skiers hit the slopes they naturally push snow to the sides anyway. Just seems like serious under-utilization of snow making potential. I don't get paid to do that job, but if I did, I'd try to maximize my limited time and resources. Now stepping off soap box.

Brew ski

[HowieT2]

Treeskier,

Thanks for posting the pix. Love the skier with the guns in the background. Nice action shot. And tips first landing. Nice.

I was thinking that the majority of the new guns were not dialed up to max output. Not sure why considering the cold temps. A couple of the guns on Gondolier must have been at higher settings because they seemed to be putting out significantly more snow than other guns. Again, seems like the new guns should have been at least turned up to 4 or 5 to get more coverage faster. The quality of snow coming out of the new guns seems really good. The flake-like pellets were dry and not hard like graupel. At least the stuff landing on my ski coat looked pretty good.

I listened to many discussions on chair rides about the guns placement. Seems like you'd have them shooting up or down the middle of the trail. Dump as much snow as possible, then let the snow cats push the snow around to aerate and smooth cover. Instead many of them were angled across trails and effectively filling the woods (thanks for that). While I'll use the strong base in the woods later in the year, it seems that on a relatively low wind weekend, the guns could be better used filling the trails. In the years that I worked at Killington, the snow makers early season usually had guns blasting up and down the runs to get max depth on the center of the trails. They let the groomers worry about pushing snow out to the edges. Once skiers hit the slopes they naturally push snow to the sides anyway. Just seems like serious under-utilization of snow making potential. I don't get paid to do that job, but if I did, I'd try to maximize my limited time and resources. Now stepping off soap box.

Brew ski

I would think the new guns could not be dialed to their max because the temperature, at least during the daytime, was too high.

[gostan]

I would think the new guns could not be dialed to their max because the temperature, at least during the daytime, was too high. And, I would think that more water would require more air/compression. But higher daytime temperatures definitely affect the volume produced by any snow gun(s).

Guys, all we really need, just like any other year, is an early two foot dump. That type of event changes everything.

[Brew Ski]

And, I would think that more water would require more air/compression. But higher daytime temperatures definitely affect the volume produced by any snow gun(s).

Guys, all we really need, just like any other year, is an early two foot dump. That type of event changes everything.

I understand your point, but I don't buy the excuse. It was BELOW 25F all night and most of the morning, especially at the peak. It's just a poor excuse to say it is too warm to not "turn 'm up!" The guns either make snow, or not. The fact that they were making snow, means it was cold enough to work and they could have been turned up past the "1" setting. OK, maybe thermal mass and high volume flow cause a local internal temperature rise in the gun so that higher flow rates creates more "heat" a la friction and to get full throttle needs temperature outside below 20F, but I'm going to find that hard to believe without a reasonable body of evidence.

My comment still stands, the guns setting on "1" or low seems a waste of time and resources. Early season or not, if you can dial up the gun for more output, do it. Again, some new guns were clearly putting out more snow than others. Hard to believe the temperature was too warm just below Heavens gate resulting in a lowest gun setting when a couple of the new guns at the base were clearly at a "2" or "3". Did someone lose the user manual for the new snow guns? Maybe having a bunch of snow making guys standing around, there was too much bravado for someone to break down and say "Jeez, these things probably could be turned up more," then go read the manual to figure out how to turn up up past the lowest setting? I've pulled every restrictor gasket out of every shower head I've ever owned to get better flow. Seems like someone should take the E-Brake of the new guns and let 'm do their thing. Moreover, they are new, I'm sure they are under warrantee. Why not try maxing them out to see what they can do? If they start spewing snot, then dial them back until you get snow again. At this point even wet snow would make a good base and open more terrain.

[HowieT2]

fwiw it was 28-30 degrees at the base during the day on saturday and sunday. dont know what the "wet bulb" was. and it's fair to assume that observations of the gun settings and output were made during the day.
and I dont think it's as simple as saying "the guns either make snow or they dont". it seems obvious that if that were true they wouldnt have settings at all.
you might be correct to the extent that in marginal temperatures these new guns may not be an improvement over the old ones.

[itsallaboutpow]

Interestingly enough, downloading on SuperBravo Sat. morning I thought the same thing .. wow, these new guns don't appear to be producing any snow :-( I know there are many parameters to consider, but it seems in years past I was super happy with the snow making at SB .. almost "proud" .. seems like we would have already had Ripcord and OG, and even Murphy's Glades rocking by now .. This year .. super disappointed !

[Hawk]

I think the marketing guy for the Snow Economics HKD gun hit a home run. I can see him now going " OMG, OMG there going to buy a SH*# load of Guns.....CHA-CHING!!!" ;-)

[gostan]

I am not sure how many of the 70 guns were in place this weekend on Downspout and strung down Lower Downspout and Gondolier, but I would suspect that most of them were in use as that is a very long run down to the base.

The Snow Logic website indicates that these guns can use/put out up to 120 GPM (gallons per minute). My recollection is that Win indicated in one of his posts that the GMP water use capacity at LP was 4000 GPM. You do the math. If some of the guns were on lower and/or different settings, then this must be the reason.

[ml242]

I am not sure how many of the 70 guns were in place this weekend on Downspout and strung down Lower Downspout and Gondolier, but I would suspect that most of them were in use as that is a very long run down to the base.

The Snow Logic website indicates that these guns can use/put out up to 120 GPM (gallons per minute). My recollection is that Win indicated in one of his posts that the GMP water use capacity at LP was 4000 GPM. You do the math. If some of the guns were on lower and/or different settings, then this must be the reason.


I thought the air was the problem (besides the warm temps).

So using the old guns, how many of these would you need to cover ripcord and OG in a week (assuming unlimited fuel, water, and good temps)?

http://www.equipmentlocator.com/asp/eDetails/INGERSOLL+RAND/P185/eqID/897953/eID/47/loc/na-en/close/yes/

[gostan]

I thought the air was the problem (besides the warm temps).

So using the old guns, how many of these would you need to cover ripcord and OG in a week (assuming unlimited fuel, water, and good temps)?

http://www.equipmentlocator.com/asp/eDetails/INGERSOLL+RAND/P185/eqID/897953/eID/47/loc/na-en/close/yes/It is the air that is the controlling issue. More air will increase the gpm of water.

[Brew Ski]

fwiw it was 28-30 degrees at the base during the day on saturday and sunday. dont know what the "wet bulb" was. and it's fair to assume that observations of the gun settings and output were made during the day.
and I dont think it's as simple as saying "the guns either make snow or they dont". it seems obvious that if that were true they wouldnt have settings at all.
you might be correct to the extent that in marginal temperatures these new guns may not be an improvement over the old ones.

False argument on the snow gun setting. It is true that they either make snow or not. If the temp is cold, compressed air and water will make ice crystals. Period. The settings allow one to control the quality or amount of snow. If you are spreading snow over the base area to make the lift corrals and surrounding area covered with a thick blanket that can stand up to traffic, you want full power. If you are pointing the gun diagonal across the trail to cover a narrow path, you turn the volume down to restrict flow to control the area that gets covered. Furthermore settings let you mix the air to water ratio giving you heavier wet snow or drier lighter snow, temp dependent. I believe the website for these guns suggested making better snow at warmer temps, suggesting that 28F at the base is plenty cold for making snow. In fact, the guns were on and making snow. That bit of evidence suggests that the guns do in fact make snow at warmer temperatures. Which of course brings the question to mind, that if the snow guns can handle making snow at 28F at the base on Saturday, then at higher elevations where the temps were colder the guns could have been opened full throttle. I know, I sound like Hawk here.;-) Just saying that the guns are using less air, making snow at warmer temps, are significantly quieter and perhaps more aesthetically pleasing, effectively fulfilling the marketing propaganda, and yet not being used to full capacity. Seems like something is missing from the equation, no?

[gostan]

The quality of the snow made on Jester & Downspout was very good.

[HowieT2]

False argument on the snow gun setting. It is true that they either make snow or not. If the temp is cold, compressed air and water will make ice crystals. Period. The settings allow one to control the quality or amount of snow. If you are spreading snow over the base area to make the lift corrals and surrounding area covered with a thick blanket that can stand up to traffic, you want full power. If you are pointing the gun diagonal across the trail to cover a narrow path, you turn the volume down to restrict flow to control the area that gets covered. Furthermore settings let you mix the air to water ratio giving you heavier wet snow or drier lighter snow, temp dependent. I believe the website for these guns suggested making better snow at warmer temps, suggesting that 28F at the base is plenty cold for making snow. In fact, the guns were on and making snow. That bit of evidence suggests that the guns do in fact make snow at warmer temperatures. Which of course brings the question to mind, that if the snow guns can handle making snow at 28F at the base on Saturday, then at higher elevations where the temps were colder the guns could have been opened full throttle. I know, I sound like Hawk here.;-) Just saying that the guns are using less air, making snow at warmer temps, are significantly quieter and perhaps more aesthetically pleasing, effectively fulfilling the marketing propaganda, and yet not being used to full capacity. Seems like something is missing from the equation, no?

I think whats missing is our understanding of how these things actually work. I believe the settings are to account for differing temperatures. I was told on sunday that
their performance so far in borderline temperatures has not been great. I took this to mean, that in higher temperatures, they required significantly more air than the
5cfm they use under optimal conditions. I could very well be wrong, but i think the settings control the air water mix and the higher the temperatures, the more air
required. Fwiw- i was also told that they were running the system at maximum air capacity.
I only took a few runs on saturday but i dont recall seeing any of the new guns up there.

[Tin Woodsman]

I think whats missing is our understanding of how these things actually work.
When has that ever stopped us?



I could very well be wrong, but i think the settings control the air water mix and the higher the temperatures, the more air
required. Fwiw- i was also told that they were running the system at maximum air capacity.

And therein lies the problem. When your primary bottleneck is air, that really hurts you early season when temps tend to be more marginal and windows shorter, and we are seeing the results of that this year.

[HowieT2]

When has that ever stopped us?


And therein lies the problem. When your primary bottleneck is air, that really hurts you early season when temps tend to be more marginal and windows shorter, and we are seeing the results of that this year.

which likely explains why other mountains have focused their recent investments in fan guns.

[Tin Woodsman]

which likely explains why other mountains have focused their recent investments in fan guns.

Which implies that we here on this board are collectively missing....something. I had long argued that fan guns would seem to be something of a panacea in that they can materially increase snow output w/o requiring additional air. SB must have concluded that the economics don't work for them for some reason. I hope it isn't the significant ($35K installed per gun) up front capital cost that is the primary factor as opposed to pure operational considerations. Either way, we don't have the full picture in some regard.

[HowieT2]

Which implies that we here on this board are collectively missing....something. I had long argued that fan guns would seem to be something of a panacea in that they can materially increase snow output w/o requiring additional air. SB must have concluded that the economics don't work for them for some reason. I hope it isn't the significant ($35K installed per gun) up front capital cost that is the primary factor as opposed to pure operational considerations. Either way, we don't have the full picture in some regard.

well, I guess, the fan guns, while increasing capacity, dont improve the efficiency of the system overall and in the long run the snow logic guns have the potential to increase capacity while significantly lowering costs. Problem is, in the weather regime we are in now, with intermittent marginal snowmaking temperatures to start the season, the new guns arent adding to capacity (because they arent operating in their sweet spot) and so a bunch of fan guns would really be helpful. can they rent those suckers?

[shadyjay]

Fan guns need power and there isn't any power hookups in large scale except in the base area. And above Allyn's Lodge, there's no power at all.

There are a couple fanguns but they don't stray far from the Snow Creek access and the Gate House base area, and of course the Polecat tower gun where the pipe used to be at Mt Ellen. They do make good snow (I used them at previous ski areas I worked at in CT), but again, you need the power capacity at the hydrant stations (or nearby). Additional power consumption could possibly lead to additional GMP power restrictions.

What we need RIGHT NOW is the weather pattern to change more than ever... more nights in the teens (and nights in the single digits), days in the low-mid 20s, mixed in with some descent snowfalls.

EDIT: Accuweather as of right now is showing snow for the 21-27 (except ice on the 22 (but perhaps not at mtn level) and on Christmas Day). Given the ability for forecasters to "barely get it right" 24 hours in advance, I'm not holding my breath, but it could end the whole snowmaking / capacity debate if it delivers the goods and in quantity.

[Tin Woodsman]

Fan guns need power and there isn't any power hookups in large scale except in the base area. And above Allyn's Lodge, there's no power at all.
Truth. This would require some investment to get power up the hill.



There are a couple fanguns but they don't stray far from the Snow Creek access and the Gate House base area, and of course the Polecat tower gun where the pipe used to be at Mt Ellen. They do make good snow (I used them at previous ski areas I worked at in CT), but again, you need the power capacity at the hydrant stations (or nearby). Additional power consumption could possibly lead to additional GMP power restrictions.

Here's where I think the math starts to get fuzzy. Do the fan guns really result in additional power consumption? I ask b/c if, for example, you installed them on Spring Fling (to pick a run), all the power that you used compressing/heating air at the base and shoving it uphill would no longer be needed, right? We know those fan guns produce more snow per gun. I guess the question is what does the power consumption look like per unit of snow produced as between traditional air/water technology and fan guns. This discussion introduces a third bottleneck area in the snowmaking debate: power (on top of air and water).

Knowing the power limitations, my hypothesis is that the selection over the last few years of increasingly efficient air/water guns is largely related to the desire to create more headroom on both their air AND their power consumption bottlenecks. While I'd prefer to be sking, this is a pretty fascinating subject in the inteirm.

[Hawk]

well, I guess, the fan guns, while increasing capacity, dont improve the efficiency of the system overall and in the long run the snow logic guns have the potential to increase capacity while significantly lowering costs. Problem is, in the weather regime we are in now, with intermittent marginal snowmaking temperatures to start the season, the new guns arent adding to capacity (because they arent operating in their sweet spot) and so a bunch of fan guns would really be helpful. can they rent those suckers?

OK I can't stay out of this. :-) My problem with the temp excuse is why aren't the other areas having a problem blowing snow and expanding trails and we are. The temps on many nights were not marginal over the last two weeks. We are floundering on keeping one route in good condition and had serious trouble getting the route to the bottom open. Other areas have 5 to 10 routes open top to bottom and are expanding every 3 days. I might add that some of these places have a top elevation that is roughly the same as Allyns. I also thought that the new guns were supposed to operate better with marginal temp conditions? Maybe not. To sit hear and think that mother nature is going to come it and save the day every year is just sticking your head in the sand. I am not going to debate the Air Water argument any more. It is simple and there is no mystery. You need more air to produce good quality snow at high temps. When the Temp goes down, you turn the air down. Have you ever seen the snow makers standing under the snow fall out with thier arm out? They are testing the snow quality. If the flakes or little pellets are bouncing off their arm then they are good. If they hit and stick it means they need more air. Actually a friend of mine that instucted me back in the day said he could tell if the mix was proper by the size and shape of the snow pellets. I couldn't tell the difference. All the wet bulb talk is for marginal conditions. 25 degrees and falling is not marginal. We have had many nights below 25 degrees.

As stated before it is what it is. The management has made their decision and we are going to live with it good or bad.

[smb1789]

I understand we all like what Win has done at Sugarbush but there is definitely an undeniable snowmaking issue. Almost every mountain in vt has more open and is in better shape and many of these places lack the natural attributes of Sugarbush. I refuse to think it has to do with even the current systems ability, because even smuggs is doing better and they aren't known to have a lot of snow making capacity. I really think sugarbush needs more air capacity, and needs more automation, before we talk about other improvements. It is simply taking too long to setup on each trail so moving is killing them. There is no reason why ripcord,organgrinder, and jester should not be open. I would thing even given the weather, with the capacity sugarbush has that they'd be able to open all three, and go top to bottom on downspout gondolier and maybe even do the traverse to spring fling, so as to have two routes down open. Arguably Win is doing worse with the snow making than ASC ever did, again like what he's done with the mountain, things are much nicer, food is better, but with regards to snowmaking it's like we don't have any. A real problem is they are trying to lay glaciers so they can stay open but it seems to get fouled up by the traffic and/or unexpected weather, I'd rather they be able to move around after they lay a foot or two of snow, but the lack of automation means they blow mountains long before it can be groomed. I'll add that at lincoln peak there are a few places fan guns would be very welcome, up spring fling, gatehouse, and on downspout(this sucker needs snow every few days). Maybe the new guns can help but I really think permanent tower installation provides the best chance at good snowmaking, so I could see installing some new guns on towers in places, the portable bit and those terrible ground guns are not really all that effective. All I know is that I've seen snow making in the Alps, where power is VERY expensive and they manage to do a better job than anywhere I've been in the states. They are more effective through automation, they aren't moving ground guns and hoses, they have some fanguns they move but mostly permanent fan guns and traditional towers. Win's got to do better if he wants to sell condos in this environment, I was considering buying a place but I'm really having second thoughts about sugarbush as an investment. If they can't have somewhat reliable conditions around christmas time it looks really bad, my friends who were with me last weekend pretty much said sugarbush sucks, they don't want to come here any more because when you plan in advance there's no reasonable expectation that the conditions will be reasonable even early season ONE BUSTED TRAIL!

[MntMan4Bush]

I think a big problem is that since they are only focused on one trail or one route it is quickly skied off because that's where all the traffic must go. So maybe if they tried getting a couple open off of HG then they wouldn't need to go back and freshen up Jester every day.

I admit it is frustrating looking at us tote hoses around like it's the 1950's or something. I was watching a group of patrollers unhook the hoses and load it into a sled to bring it to the next spot. One at a time. Don't get me wrong. Huge effort on the patrollers part and accolades to them for jumping in and helping, but it was painfully slow watching. Then they bring the sled back up and ski down and start over again. To move from one trail to the next to make snow takes forever. How about stepping into the new millennium with a bang and use one of them thar new fangled snoh-mohbeelz. How about having more than 10 hoses on the whole mountain (someone please correct my exaggeration) so we're not robbing Peter to pay Paul by having to take a whole system down and move it before starting some place new. I'll donate $10 and someone can go down to Ace and pick up a few lengths.(Someone please get angry and point out my flawed logic on the cost and type of hoses used)

We have some permanent tower guns on Ripcord. They're spaced out and need to be supplemented by other units to be 100% effective I'm sure but was it a surprise to anyone that winter was coming this year and trails might need some prep? How about turning those towers on and leaving them on while other trails are being blown? It at least gets some snow down on the trail and is a start and since their fixed in place shouldn't require to much to get them going. Also at higher elevation hopefully they wouldn't be subject to lower temps or require too much watching.

Of course we've all got "good" ideas and I'm sure petty things like logic, facts and money get in the way of our "fixing" the snowmaking issue, but can someone please get creative? And buying guns that don't work at higher temps is not the answer since when you need them most is at the start in marginal temps. If that rumor was true about the new guns all being on a setting of 1 out of 10 is true then that's just Bush League. That's turning guns on for show and nothing else. I'm sorry. Explain away all you want and fault my logic, but that's what it seems like.

The snowmaking has been terrible for years, but people either go to other mountains or don't have the energy to fight it. I'm happy to see finally some people who are voicing their opinions so it doesn't seem like a handful of dissidents. It's actually people who care about the mountain, truly appreciate Win for not only what he does to make SB better, but also that he puts up with our bitching and doesn't take it personally and people who have a vested interest in the Valley as a whole. The problem is that year after after mother nature eventually comes in and bails the mountain out. Last year it was a huge dumping that opened even CR. But everyone has a short memory and forgets that prior to that people were making the trip down to Killington or up to SR to escape weeks in a row of Jester-Downspout. So someone sticky this thread so when we get bailed out again and start dusting off our edges at the start of next year we don't forget.

[HowieT2]

couple of points- shady-true there isnt power to the upper mtn, but the fan guns are needed around the base area and there is power there. put 10 fan guns by the superbravo, valley house and up gondolier and you are significantly increasing how much snow is made. and since they are not using any air from the compressors, you can make more snow elsewhere.

I read a post on another board from someone at Stowe indicating they were taking a dust on ground approach just to get trails open and moving on and praying. whether this approach makes sense is up for debate, but I think a reasonable argument can be made that for the way sugarbush is approaching this. The former may boost trail count in the short run, but over the course of the season, it is better to lay a proper amount of snow before moving on.

I think we need to acknowledge that though SB invested in the new snow logic guns based on sound reasoning, the guns may not be performing up to expectations in the current conditions. I got the distinct impression from the person I spoke to (who shall remain nameless), that they were extremely disappointed in the performance so far. and about the settings issue, it defies reason to believe that SB is purposefully not making as much snow as they can. we can argue about whether they should get more fan guns, add compressors, automate, yada yada yada, but why in the world would they choose to restrict the output? that doesnt make any sense and is contrary to what I was told, which is that they were operating at maximum air capacity.

and Hawk, I have to disagree with you about the temperatures. They have been marginal at best with only a few nights dipping into the teens. I think december is running about 10 degrees above normal following a very warm november so the ground isnt even frozen.

All that being said, with the opening of mellon this weekend, the trail count will expand exponentially. so we got that going for us, which is nice.

[freeheel_skier]

I Win's got to do better if he wants to sell condos in this environment, I was considering buying a place but I'm really having second thoughts about sugarbush as an investment. If they can't have somewhat reliable conditions around christmas time it looks really bad, my friends who were with me last weekend pretty much said sugarbush sucks, they don't want to come here any more because when you plan in advance there's no reasonable expectation that the conditions will be reasonable even early season ONE BUSTED TRAIL!

Something is definetly wrong.......If I have to tell my kids this weekend that their programs (Micro and Mini Blazers) are not going out this weekend I am going to have a problem on my hands. The reason the younger kids are not getting out on the snow is due to lack of terrain. This is total bs! Baisically wasted $85.00/day on daycare for last weekend and the possibly this weekend. The activities last weekend included coloring and watching a movie. The kids didn't even go outside for a hike or over to the SHRC to run around/swim/rock wall. I recieved an email stating that there would be out door activities and pack accordingly. Basically the same one I recieved this am.

Many people have invested $$$ in this season by purchasing passes and putting kids in seasonal programs. If I want to put my kids in daycare while I mountain bike that is my choice. However, signing up for a seasonal program, gambling on the fact that there maybe a chance that they might not get out on snow.....There is something wrong here! More trails need to be open in marginal temps! Both could have skied Jester/Spout. However, the amount of traffic and the whole downloading ordeal I thought otherwise.

It will be interesting to see what the snow and route choices will be like this weekend @ ME.

[Tin Woodsman]

Talk about a tough begining of the year for SB. First they get his by $800K of unplanned expense/capital for repairing the snowmaking pond. Then they have to deal with temps that are a few standard deviations above the avg. When you top it all off with fancy new snowmaking guns that aren't performing as expected (if the rumors are to be believed), that's quite the triple whammy - close to a worst case scenario. Hopefully some good can come out of this by creating a "burning platform" to start seriously addressing this issue instead of chipping away at the margins.

[smb1789]

Listen its understandable mother nature isn't cooperating. There has been some adversity, I just think we need to be honest, I love sugarbush, but the impression outsiders are getting is that it is a place not worth going to. Any people new to the place this christmas are not likely to return with the amount of trails open even with mt ellen open. I was arround the first time it almost went under and in. 93 lack of snow played a role. Nobody is asking for sr or killington snowmaking, just good enough that reasonably by the third weekend in december enough terrain is open to spread the people out and it will be good enogh for intermediates and children. I also think the current problem is more opertional than capacity requiring investment. I think others mountains like stowe managed to move quickly from trail to trail open more routes down, and thanks circled back to last down insurance snow. I still think a few diesel compressors would have helped. Long term, yes investments could be made to make it better, but that isn't and excuses for how poor it is now.

[Hawk]

and Hawk, I have to disagree with you about the temperatures. They have been marginal at best with only a few nights dipping into the teens. I think december is running about 10 degrees above normal following a very warm november so the ground isnt even frozen.

All that being said, with the opening of mellon this weekend, the trail count will expand exponentially. so we got that going for us, which is nice.

Howie, Sunday River has 18 trails and is promising another 12 by Christmas. Elevation there is less than 3000. They are posting that they have had 34 snowmaking days. Sounds like plenty of cold to me. You are dead wrong if you don't think there has not been cold enough temps. Also Stowe's skiing is excellent right now. I have a guy in my office that is a season pass holder and has skiied 6 day so far there. His reports are accurate. Stop drinking the coolaid :-)

[Brew Ski]

I'm with Hawk on this one, too. The FACT that the new snow logic guns were running Saturday afternoon at the Base at 2:45pm when I downloaded and were producing good quality snow, demonstrates clearly that these guns perform well at the 30F temp that was at the base. The temperatures are just fine for snow making! The snow coming out of the guns was not wet heavy snot. It was drifting in the light breeze, which demonstrates a good quality dry snow product. The lack of snowy trails for us to get our fix is not due to the temperatures. period. We need to get off that with all the supporting evidence. Point fingers at air capacity, or water flow restrictions, or Green Mountain Power restrictions, whatever, but the temps are just fine for snow making. That is why, as Hawk points out, all the other resorts in VT have plenty of snow. Compressed air plus water and temps below freezing make snow. period. The new guns are doing their job as advertised, albeit maybe they need to be turned up to higher flow rates.

[HowieT2]

Howie, Sunday River has 18 trails and is promising another 12 by Christmas. Elevation there is less than 3000. They are posting that they have had 34 snowmaking days. Sounds like plenty of cold to me. You are dead wrong if you don't think there has not been cold enough temps. Also Stowe's skiing is excellent right now. I have a guy in my office that is a season pass holder and has skiied 6 day so far there. His reports are accurate. Stop drinking the coolaid :-)
Im not drinking any coolaid. Facts are facts. Its been warm for everyone. If sr has done a better job, good for them, but it doesnt change the fact that it has been much warmer than normal. To say it has been "plenty cold" is simply not true. That doesnt mean that im saying that sb's snowmaking has been up to par.

[HowieT2]

I'm with Hawk on this one, too. The FACT that the new snow logic guns were running Saturday afternoon at the Base at 2:45pm when I downloaded and were producing good quality snow, demonstrates clearly that these guns perform well at the 30F temp that was at the base. The temperatures are just fine for snow making! The snow coming out of the guns was not wet heavy snot. It was drifting in the light breeze, which demonstrates a good quality dry snow product. The lack of snowy trails for us to get our fix is not due to the temperatures. period. We need to get off that with all the supporting evidence. Point fingers at air capacity, or water flow restrictions, or Green Mountain Power restrictions, whatever, but the temps are just fine for snow making. That is why, as Hawk points out, all the other resorts in VT have plenty of snow. Compressed air plus water and temps below freezing make snow. period. The new guns are doing their job as advertised, albeit maybe they need to be turned up to higher flow rates.

You are missing my point about the guns and youre forcing me to play devils advocate here. Just because there is snow coming out of the snow logic guns doesnt mean they are performing up to expectations in terms of their air use efficiency. And if they are using more air in the marginal temperatures we have experienced, they arent providing the increased capacity one would have expected from the marketing hype. Im not taking sides here. Im not arguing that the warmth is an excuse. Fact is, during this same debate last year, i advocated investing in fan guns. But sb chose to go with these snow logic guns because they were supposed to be so efficient thereby freeing up air capacity to make more snow. As that obviously isnt happening, im curious to know why. The only explanation that ive heard that makes sense, is that the new guns havent performed as effeciently as anticipated. The other resorts have orders of magnitude more fan guns than sb.

[Brew Ski]

You are missing my point about the guns and youre forcing me to play devils advocate here. Just because there is snow coming out of the snow logic guns doesnt mean they are performing up to expectations in terms of their air use efficiency. And if they are using more air in the marginal temperatures we have experienced, they arent providing the increased capacity one would have expected from the marketing hype. Im not taking sides here. Im not arguing that the warmth is an excuse. Fact is, during this same debate last year, i advocated investing in fan guns. But sb chose to go with these snow logic guns because they were supposed to be so efficient thereby freeing up air capacity to make more snow. As that obviously isnt happening, im curious to know why. The only explanation that ive heard that makes sense, is that the new guns havent performed as effeciently as anticipated. The other resorts have orders of magnitude more fan guns than sb.

OK Howie, now were getting somewhere. We agree it isn't a temperature problem but an air, water or power capacity issue. I agree that if the new snow logic guns require more compressed air at warmer temps to produce snow at higher volume settings, and there is only air capacity for running them at lowest settings, the we are talking about a compressed air capacity issue. Good progress, lets focus on that. The word was that the compressors has been worked on this past summer to "get them back into shape" for this coming winter. The tuned up compressors should be performing "better" and therefore provide more air capacity than in previous seasons. But as we all see, we just are not getting enough air capacity to drive even highly more efficient snow logic guns. So it seems we still have a poor air compression system for what is needed to have early season skiing at our favorite mountain.

Air compressors can work on electricity (we know that is restricted by GMP, especially at holiday time), and combustible fuel. So would buying diesel or propane or natural gas compressors subsidize the gap in air compression needs to run all the snow logic guns at full blast? Can the mountain rent them short term to get the slopes filled with early season snow? It has got to be less expensive than buying or building out new compressor stations. It would seem that this is the prudent course considering the investment in the new snow logic guns. While I like to see the fan guns churning out snowstorms, I think if the mountain invested in those, we would have both a water and electricity capacity issue. Perhaps it makes more sense financially and time efficiency to have the mountain solve the air capacity issue first.

[gostan]

From my perspective, all of the caring well thought out remarks about the snow making issues early this season are pure educated speculations based upon rumors, observations & a good bit of though & lots of frustration. No doubt, December (& November) has been warmer than ever per all weather reporting pundits/statistics. And, of course, the combination of warm weather conditions and the existing snow making system are not making early season skiing at SB anything to write home about, or to brag about to our many skiing/rising friends and family who enjoy our favorite winter sport at other NE mountains.

Maybe now might be the time for us to ask Win to give us all a report on the issues that mountain ops have faced this season with the snow making system itself, including the new Snow Logic guns and what can be done or is being done to counteract/overcome the obvious problems. After all, we are all season pass holders and are really akin to annually renewing public investors in a privately held company. We do not ever expect anything back for our seasonal investments, other than the best snow conditions that SB is capable of giving us. And, I think that all of the comments here show the passion that all have for the winter and for Sugarbush and full well understand that the weather is the weather and that there can be no natural snow guarantees. I know that Win and his entire team have the same passion, but what is really going on with the snow making issues this season and are there any immediate fixes planned or being put into place to improve the man made snow product other than waiting for steady colder temperatures and/or the snow gods?

[Hawk]

No Stan. My comments are not speculation. I have done the reseach, lived in a house with snowmakers for years, did a small stint as a snowmaker and stand by my comments:
- We do not have the capacity to make enough air to blow more than one trail at a time when temps are in the 20's (Meaning one route top to bottom)
- The piping system we have it aging, leaking and in need of replacement as it breaks quite frequently.
- Replacing regular guns with the new fangled guns does not make more or better quality snow. Just the same quality sometimes and possibly less quantity. We will see.

That is all I have ever said.

I am on the band wagon now. Pray for snow!!!! or god help us.

[arc1]

[
Air compressors can work on electricity (we know that is restricted by GMP, especially at holiday time), and combustible fuel. So would buying diesel or propane or natural gas compressors subsidize the gap in air compression needs to run all the snow logic guns at full blast? Can the mountain rent them short term to get the slopes filled with early season snow? It has got to be less expensive than buying or building out new compressor stations. It would seem that this is the prudent course considering the investment in the new snow logic guns. While I like to see the fan guns churning out snowstorms, I think if the mountain invested in those, we would have both a water and electricity capacity issue. Perhaps it makes more sense financially and time efficiency to have the mountain solve the air capacity issue first.[/QUOTE]

If you were around when ASC owned the resort, you'll remember the little village of compresssors during the early season parked in the maintenance shed lot at the bottom of Bravo. They also claimed to have a computerized sensor system to monitor temps and humidity a different elevations so they could change the water/air mix as needed. They made a lot more snow back then. So yes, it can be done, it has been done. As we know, it's a business decision. I guess the decision is that the investment would not meaningfully increase early season ski revenue. This time of year, no matter how much snow, the vast majority of skiers are passholders. Whether we're skiing on 1 trail (6? Please) or 10, are mountain biking or buying tickets at Kton, they've already got our money.

[HowieT2]

OK Howie, now were getting somewhere. We agree it isn't a temperature problem but an air, water or power capacity issue. I agree that if the new snow logic guns require more compressed air at warmer temps to produce snow at higher volume settings, and there is only air capacity for running them at lowest settings, the we are talking about a compressed air capacity issue. Good progress, lets focus on that. The word was that the compressors has been worked on this past summer to "get them back into shape" for this coming winter. The tuned up compressors should be performing "better" and therefore provide more air capacity than in previous seasons. But as we all see, we just are not getting enough air capacity to drive even highly more efficient snow logic guns. So it seems we still have a poor air compression system for what is needed to have early season skiing at our favorite mountain.

Air compressors can work on electricity (we know that is restricted by GMP, especially at holiday time), and combustible fuel. So would buying diesel or propane or natural gas compressors subsidize the gap in air compression needs to run all the snow logic guns at full blast? Can the mountain rent them short term to get the slopes filled with early season snow? It has got to be less expensive than buying or building out new compressor stations. It would seem that this is the prudent course considering the investment in the new snow logic guns. While I like to see the fan guns churning out snowstorms, I think if the mountain invested in those, we would have both a water and electricity capacity issue. Perhaps it makes more sense financially and time efficiency to have the mountain solve the air capacity issue first.

seems to me we are just back at square one. the only issue I have with what you stated above, is that we dont know, and have reason to believe to the contrary, that the new snow logic guns have been performing more efficiently. Win said these guns were expected to run at 5 cfm as opposed to 150 cfm for the low-e guns. If that were true, they should be able to run 30 snow logic guns for every low e gun (not to mention the older guns) they take off line. clearly we havent seen that kind of increased production and my understanding is that's because the new snow logic guns arent running at 5cfm. For all we know, they are using as much as, or even more air than the older guns. temperatures factor into this because it may be that the snow logic guns can indeed perform more efficiently only at lower temperatures which have been hard to come by so far this season.

[MntMan4Bush]

6 trails is a bit egregious. Lower Downspout? I had no idea it existed. Lower Jester? I think only 10% of the trail is open. There should be a rule that greater than 50% of a trail needs to be open (i.e. more open than closed) to label it an open trail. I'm surprised we don't say Upper Organgrinder is open because people coming down from Allyn sometimes ski up hill a bit at the intersection and take a rest before continuing on. OK now I'm just being a dick, but come on. I was watching some of the videos above the snow report. "Amazing conditions" "Can't believe how good it is for early December"? Really. You should have to list if someone is a paid actor.

I like the idea of diesel compressors. It should get rid of the argument of electricity issues though with the price of diesel I have no idea if it makes it more costly and (I can now think of at least 4 people who are going to bust my balls about ME saying this when I see them) with an effort to be more green on fuel consumption would this be a step back and is that a concern for the mountain's overall initiatives? Personally when it comes to skiing I throw that hippie BS out the window. Off season I encourage it, but if hooking a monkey's testicles up to a car battery would get me more snow I have two things to say. Red is positive and black is negative,. Have at it.

On a serious note it would be nice to have maybe some diesel generators to either rent or buy. I'm curious the reasoning behind not going with this route. Is it strictly cost prohibitive? We're not far from Christmas week now and I'm not seeing a ton or progress. I'm sure SB is hoping that with the opening of Mt Ellen it will quiet some of the crowd, but while it will be nice to ski North it does not solve the snow making issue which will continue to creep up.

We are not asking to be first open. I have no problem spending some money and heading to Killington for the first week or two of skiing. That's fine. As someone pointed out it's mostly passholders and a few of us day tickets. The Friday after Thanksgiving there were a lot of day tickets there and last Sunday the place was packed with day passes. It is no longer a "crazy early season obsessed" crowd. It's normal people looking to ski good terrain and it effects the whole valley. A friend of mine bought new skis this year. Where did he buy them? Killington. Why because where is he going to demo them? Downspout and Jester? Otherwise he probably would have bought them at Alpine Options. Food. Beverages. Not just SB revenue but businesses in the Valley. Where else am I going to get my $19 egg sandwich than at the Warren store where I am apparently paying by the hour.

A holiday week is on it's way and we have 1 trail (ONE TRAIL) open. Mt Ellen will expand the terrain for sure. It's enough to pull me up and away form Killington just to see. But it's still weak this time of year compared to similar mountains.

[ducky]

http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/

Cold is on the way.

[HowieT2]

Howie, Sunday River has 18 trails and is promising another 12 by Christmas. Elevation there is less than 3000. They are posting that they have had 34 snowmaking days. Sounds like plenty of cold to me. You are dead wrong if you don't think there has not been cold enough temps. Also Stowe's skiing is excellent right now. I have a guy in my office that is a season pass holder and has skiied 6 day so far there. His reports are accurate. Stop drinking the coolaid :-)

and for the record, I looked at Stowe's trail report. your coworkers winter wonderland has a whopping 14 trails open including a few listed as "partially open". and sure that looks better than SB's 6, but when mt ellen opens, the trail count will be virtually the same. so what's wrong with their snow making system?

[MntMan4Bush]

Stowe is actually listing 15 trails. They've had more terrain open longer than we have. We don't get Mt Ellen open until tomorrow when we start catching up a bit. We only really have ONE trail open. I'm sure Stowe's 15 boils down to less as well. You can't really look at trail count. You have to look at acreage. When I went to Killington last week with only 23 trails open I wasn't expecting as much as I got. Skylark is a long trail. That's some serious vertical top to bottom. It is an Upper and Lower situation but combined as two trails is a lot. Headwall is also open and is one trail the whole length of the lift. That's 1200 vertical of actual skiing. Not a run out.

Also I'm glad to see Stowe take the high road here and list trails as partially open. I may be wrong, and if so I apologize, but can you ski all of Lower Jester? Was the bottom part of Upper Organgrinder or Domino Chutes opened up to connect the top of Lower Jester and snow blown on that as well? If so then my bad. If not then well. That' a "fully" open trail?

[gostan]

I really do not want to get into the "who has what trails open" debate. But, I skied Lord top to bottom at Stowe on Wednesday, November 23rd and it was and is a great long ride and has been open non stop since. Trail number counts at Stowe, SB or anywhere are fairly inconsequential to me. What is open and skiable is most important.

[Hawk]

Howie as Stan said and also as my friend has reported, Stowe has been top to bottom for 2 weeks longer than us with better conditions and a trail or two more. Look I am not trying to dis you dude. I spent most of my skiing life at a top notch snow making mountian so I know what good snowmaking is like, How fast is goes down, what temps they can blow at, etc.

I came to the Bush 8 years ago because of the snow fall and my love of woods and Pow. There is none better IMHO. But now I have niether and I think that it hurts the mountain going forward as far as future ticket sales. People are going to see Chrstmas week and realize. It actuall scares me and makes me concerned for the mountain. I left my life behind and bought up here instead. That is a huge investment so I am concerned. That is all.

[HowieT2]

Howie as Stan said and also as my friend has reported, Stowe has been top to bottom for 2 weeks longer than us with better conditions and a trail or two more. Look I am not trying to dis you dude. I spent most of my skiing life at a top notch snow making mountian so I know what good snowmaking is like, How fast is goes down, what temps they can blow at, etc.

I came to the Bush 8 years ago because of the snow fall and my love of woods and Pow. There is none better IMHO. But now I have niether and I think that it hurts the mountain going forward as far as future ticket sales. People are going to see Chrstmas week and realize. It actuall scares me and makes me concerned for the mountain. I left my life behind and bought up here instead. That is a huge investment so I am concerned. That is all.

I am not arguing with you that conditions are great. there is no doubt that they arent. and yes other resorts are in better shape. But they have issues too because of the same warm weather and lack of snow. It seems we have this same discussion every year at this time and by mlk its forgotten. I hope things get better soon. 'nothing really we cant do about it. the wife is starting to express concern. closing in on 60 degrees here in nyc today. just got off the phone with a friend who is thinking of bailing on his trip to okemo for xmas. another buddy leaving for park city tomorrow and they havent gotten much snow either (although at least its been cold there).

[HowieT2]

check out this article. http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/north/12006158578786/warm-temps-in-northeast-thwart-resorts-snowmaking/

"Mount Sunapee's McCloy said that at 25 degrees, his state-of-the-art snow guns run at about 25 percent of capacity. At 10 degrees, he said, the guns are at peak performance."

[Hawk]

I am not arguing with you that conditions are great. there is no doubt that they arent. and yes other resorts are in better shape. But they have issues too because of the same warm weather and lack of snow. It seems we have this same discussion every year at this time and by mlk its forgotten. I hope things get better soon. 'nothing really we cant do about it. the wife is starting to express concern. closing in on 60 degrees here in nyc today. just got off the phone with a friend who is thinking of bailing on his trip to okemo for xmas. another buddy leaving for park city tomorrow and they havent gotten much snow either (although at least its been cold there).

You know I checked around and the only place in the country with snow is Washington State. Crystal, Baker and Steven's Pass are all at 75 to 90 %. What a weird pattern. Good article from Sunapee. Interesting. Yes same discussion. Only this time we mean business !!! ;-)

[notorious]

[QUOTE=Hawk;114617]You know I checked around and the only place in the country with snow is Washington State. Crystal, Baker and Steven's Pass are all at 75 to 90 %. What a weird pattern. Good article from Sunapee. Interesting. Yes same discussion. Only this time we mean business !!! ;-)[/QUOTE


You are only obsessing about weather and snowmaking guns etc because your gal is away step-dancing with her kissing cousins in the Olde Sod. We are here because of the terrain and natural snowfall, not for the man-made stuff. Go MT Biking until the white stuff comes.

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=Hawk;114617]You know I checked around and the only place in the country with snow is Washington State. Crystal, Baker and Steven's Pass are all at 75 to 90 %. What a weird pattern. Good article from Sunapee. Interesting. Yes same discussion. Only this time we mean business !!! ;-)[/QUOTE


You are only obsessing about weather and snowmaking guns etc because your gal is away step-dancing with her kissing cousins in the Olde Sod. We are here because of the terrain and natural snowfall, not for the man-made stuff. Go MT Biking until the white stuff comes.

Maybe a little but remember where I came from Notorious. I am used to skiing from October to May every year. This is a first for me. I am not used to Sh*# conditions this late.

[MntMan4Bush]

Personally I am here to ski. Natural or man made. It's to ski without snow. While I agree with the argument that i prefer natural to man made I'd take man made over none.

[Hawk]

Personally I am here to ski. Natural or man made. It's to ski without snow. While I agree with the argument that i prefer natural to man made I'd take man made over none.
Word Dude!!! Hell at this point I wouldn't mind another weekend like a couple of weeks ago when we ripped the soft bumps as a group. That was great skiing. :)

[HowieT2]

Well im staying home and mtn biking this weekend. My son broke his wrist and is sidelined for a few weeks.

[Hawk]

Well im staying home and mtn biking this weekend. My son broke his wrist and is sidelined for a few weeks.

Bad news dude. Sorry to hear. Hope he is feeling better. He can ski with no poles!!!! Terri did it for 4 weeks a couple of years ago.

[HowieT2]

Bad news dude. Sorry to hear. Hope he is feeling better. He can ski with no poles!!!! Terri did it for 4 weeks a couple of years ago.
Makes this miserable weather a little easier to take. By the time we get the goods, he'll be back in action. Glad its nondisplaced and not in the joint.

[win]

The jury is still out and we are still learning how to operate them fully but we are seeing some good results. The made a good amount on Inverness for example. Last weekend when we had nice temperatures we had 140 guns running combined at LP and ME. We had not maxed out on water so we could have pushed more through. All forty of the snowlogics are now set up in the Gatehouse area so they combined with out HKD towers should be producing a lot of snow starting tomorrow as the temperatures down low get into the teens. Today, we are on Upper Organgrinder so we can get that open tomorrow and touching up parts of Jester, Allyn's Traverse and Downspout that need it after yesterday's warm up and rain. The temperature trend is finally looking better and there is even some snow in the forecast. We are making snow on Rim Run and Looking Good and Inverness tomorrow and while we will be open at ME tomorrow we will be downloading. As the temps come down we will be moving the guns down Crusier and to the bottom as fast as we can so we can get top to bottom there too.

[Treeskier]

It was nice that this weekend the MT did give us some very playful snow...Saturday on Organgrinder and Sunday on Downspout. Thank you.

I understand they maxed out production using all guns/water available with the great cold temps. Yah!

Back to snow dancing....hopefully we get a snow/sand storm over the warm alternative over the next couple days.

[Hawk]

It was nice that this weekend the MT did give us some very playful snow...Saturday on Organgrinder and Sunday on Downspout. Thank you.

I understand they maxed out production using all guns/water available with the great cold temps. Yah!

Back to snow dancing....hopefully we get a snow/sand storm over the warm alternative over the next couple days.

Playful snow???? What the hell is that. Isn't all snow playful. ;-)

[HowieT2]

Is it true there was no snowmaking yesterday due to Gmp power restrictions???

[win]

There was an ISO Northeast curtailment for two hours. Not sure what the exact emergency was and hopefully we will not see this again. We had to shut down completely in 20 minutes. I would expect that most areas shutdown for those two hours as well. While that was a real pain for everyone, we had to transition anyway from the base area to the top as temperatures were starting to rise into the 30's.

[HowieT2]

There was an ISO Northeast curtailment for two hours. Not sure what the exact emergency was and hopefully we will not see this again. We had to shut down completely in 20 minutes. I would expect that most areas shutdown for those two hours as well. While that was a real pain for everyone, we had to transition anyway from the base area to the top as temperatures were starting to rise into the 30's.

Thanks Win. When i was told that, i couldnt believe gmp experienced high demand in the middle of an ordinary weekday, with moderate temperatures. Didnt make sense.